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Old 02-17-2018, 01:52 AM   #41
Sumac
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Originally Posted by Ninjinister View Post
I know I definitely am but I try not to leak that into a message board about cartoons.

EDIT: See folks, THAT is a legitimate use of "leak"!
Careful! You are risking to attract wrath of some users who will state that "everything is political and every thread matters and should be turned into political battlefield, otherwise this world is doomed and they feel themselves bad".
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:22 AM   #42
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How big was the bowl?
Oh, I loathe weed. Though I would be lying if I said this wasn't borne of a drunken conversation with deep-thinking buddies... but I'm not certain it's far off the mark at all.
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Old 02-17-2018, 02:36 AM   #43
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Careful! You are risking to attract wrath of some users who will state that "everything is political and every thread matters and should be turned into political battlefield, otherwise this world is doomed and they feel themselves bad".
Wait, what?

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Oh, I loathe weed. Though I would be lying if I said this wasn't borne of a drunken conversation with deep-thinking buddies... but I'm not certain it's far off the mark at all.
Well you can drink out of a bowl...
Yeah, that's what I meant.

(Actually it does seem more stoner convo than drunken from what I've experienced)
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Old 02-06-2019, 12:20 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections View Post
Are there some here experiencing an existential crisis here?
It's just fun to pick at the foundation a little bit.
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Old 05-03-2022, 05:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
Of course I admit that choice exists, that doesn't mean that all choices are the right ones though. Choice should not be the ultimate denominator of society, bad choices should be punished and good choices should be rewarded.

The question for someone of your worldview is that how can you prove choice exists? In a worldview completely divorced from the supernatural, there is no room for an immaterial soul with free will.

If we take a completely naturalistic approach as non-believers typically tend to do, then there is no room for anything to exist that cannot be proved scientifically. Science covers the physical world, which is completely deterministic and leaves no explanation for free will.
Yeah, I don't believe free choice exists. Not in the way you would ordinarily think of it.

It comes down to my baby/clones experiment. Which hasn't really been done, but I suspect the results would be predictable. Put two genetically identical clone babies with identical brain chemistry in identical rooms for 13 years, expose them to exactly the same stimuli in exactly the same ways at exactly the same times of day. Would they not behave and react in exactly the same ways at the same times, on everything? If not, why not, if the variables introduced in the two rooms is 0? The argument either becomes, "Well, there's a soul in there, that's where the free will is" or we really are no more than the sum of our memories/experiences. Of course it seems like we've got total control ("I COULD pick up and eat that donut, but I'm not going to!") at all times in our heads... but do we?

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Old 05-03-2022, 05:47 PM   #46
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It's funny how the people who swear they don't get high all talk like they constantly are.
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Old 05-03-2022, 08:46 PM   #47
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It's funny how the people who swear they don't get high all talk like they constantly are.
Crack is a helluva drug.
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Old 05-03-2022, 08:56 PM   #48
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How would you know? I thought crack was a black thing, I thought Mexicans just liked the powder yayo?

Shows what I f*cking know. But then, I only poke smot.
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Old 05-03-2022, 09:33 PM   #49
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It's funny how the people who swear they don't get high all talk like they constantly are.
Hey, I'm trying here. What, did you want to discuss the finer merits of "Rise of the TMNT" or its movie instead?
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Old 05-03-2022, 09:44 PM   #50
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Hey, I'm trying here. What, did you want to discuss the finer merits of "Rise of the TMNT" or its movie instead?
Dude no. That type of discussion is too deep and mature for this type of message board.

Let's get back to existential crisis please.
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Old 05-03-2022, 11:43 PM   #51
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Yeah, I don't believe free choice exists. Not in the way you would ordinarily think of it.
Thank you for replying to me here, I think it opens up the possibility of less politically slanted and more philosophical discussions. Much appreciated.

Now for my reply to Leo from the Roe v. Wade thread:

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Nobody believes more than I do in Actions vs. Consequences. I believe everyone has freedom of choice, but that does not mean freedom FROM consequence.
I could say the exact same thing about a Theocracy. That every one has freedom of choice, but that won't save them from the consequences in the flesh if they decide to break the law.

I think there's a misunderstanding going on between us. My question was to you specifically, how can you prove choice exists if you deny everything supernatural/non-physical?

Choice and free will is not something that cannot be measured in a labratory. If I imagine a picture of Raphael playing a guitar while singing in Arabic, that mental picture doesn't exist in a way that can be measured by our five senses, yet its there, "somewhere".

The point I'm trying to make is that our consciousness exists in a realm that is not physical, otherwise we would just be meat robots with no agency. Therefore, if one believes that a non-physical entity like our consciousness exists, then one must not rule out the existence of other entities which cannot measured by the five senses, including God.

Dismissing God's existence because of no physical evidence is foolish, because physical evidence can only be used to prove physical phenomena. If God was physical, he would not be God, because the physical world is prone to disorder and is limited to the laws of space and time, and God is above such worldly restrictions.

And before someone asks, I am not Christian. Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) was not God in the flesh, such a belief is blasphemous.

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Old 05-04-2022, 12:01 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo View Post
Thank you for replying to me here, I think it opens up the possibility of less politically slanted and more philosophical discussions. Much appreciated.

Now for my reply to Leo from the Roe v. Wade thread:



I could say the exact same thing about a Theocracy. That every one has freedom of choice, but that won't save them from the consequences in the flesh if they decide to break the law.

I think there's a misunderstanding going on between us. My question was to you specifically, how can you prove choice exists if you deny everything supernatural/non-physical?

Choice and free will is not something that cannot be measured in a labratory. If I imagine a picture of Raphael playing a guitar while singing in Arabic, that mental picture doesn't exist in a way that can be measured by our five senses, yet its there, "somewhere".

The point I'm trying to make is that our consciousness exists in a realm that is not physical, otherwise we would just be meat robots with no agency. Therefore, if one believes that a non-physical entity like our consciousness exists, then one must not rule out the existence of other entities which cannot measured by the five senses, including God.

Dismissing God's existence because of no physical evidence is foolish, because physical evidence can only be used to prove physical phenomena. If God was physical, he would not be God, because the physical world is prone to disorder and is limited to the laws of space and time, and God is above such worldly restrictions.

And before someone asks, I am not Christian. Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) was not God in the flesh, such a belief is blasphemous.
Is that agnostic? I know a friend that is agnostic and he told me it's like he believes there is a higher power out there, just not God as we know it.

This might be a different variation of the same viewpoint where you believe in God just not as how he is portrayed in the bible.
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Old 05-04-2022, 12:03 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Coola Yagami View Post
Is that agnostic? I know a friend that is agnostic and he told me it's like he believes there is a higher power out there, just not God as we know it.

This might be a different variation of the same viewpoint where you believe in God just not as how he is portrayed in the bible.
I am Muslim.
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Old 05-04-2022, 12:06 AM   #54
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I am Muslim.
Ah, I was not aware.
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Old 05-04-2022, 12:26 AM   #55
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Electrical impulses are still "physical". That's what your brain and your memories and your imagination are. Electrical impulses reacting to stimuli.

Case in point, the whole "life flashing before one's eyes" thing people supposedly experience when they die. That's their synapses misfiring, and their dying brain rifling through the "filing cabinet" of stored data right before it gets Control/Alt/Deleted. It's a System Crash. There's nothing mystical or supernatural about any of it. Yet some people think there is.

But electrical impulses are still a physical thing. They CAN be quantified. Same as digital data on a hard drive. You can't "hold" it, outside of its storage device, but it's there. A memory is ultimately no different. It's just a slightly more advanced form of "media" than a digital recording, but it's essentially the same thing.

As for "How can I prove choice exists"... I don't see how this is even a question. I make choices every minute of every day, big or small. I choose whether to take a piss or hold it another two hours. I choose whether my ass or my balls needs scratching more urgently at a given moment. I choose whether to stay up and jerk off or go to bed early. I choose whether to look at porn or not look at porn. I choose whether I want to read or play a video game, or do none of those things. I choose if I want to listen to the same song for the 5th time in a row or move on to a different one. I choose if I want to wake up at 10am or 3pm, since nothing is presently stopping me from doing either.

On a more morbid track, every day (so far) I make the choice not to kill myself, despite it being an ever-present and highly convenient option. I easily could if I felt like it. So far, I've decided that I've still got sh*t to do. One day, it's very likely that I'll choose that I've done enough. But that's entirely up to me, 100%. Not "God" or anyone else could stop me.

I do whatever I feel like, whenever I feel like, and I spend a great deal of time wrestling with whether or not I'm finally ready to make "the ultimate choice"... and you're asking me if "choice" even exists. That would be comical if it wasn't so frickin' bizarre.

There are things we can't control and can only react to... but that in no way means that we have "no choice" in the matter. Life is nothing BUT a series of choices, and which choices you make determines how your life turns out.

For example, I "chose" to reject all notions of God when I reached the age of reason, and realized that if he were real then he'd have to be a gigantic f*cking asshole. And so I "choose" to have nothing to do with this hypothetical make-believe scumbag. Likewise, if he were real, upon death I would "choose" to kick his door in and demand a meeting. Because I have a lot of questions and very serious grievances.

And sure, there might hypothetically be repercussions for such behavior. I don't think so at all, but sure, there might be. God might be real, and he might not like it that I deny him openly or would mock him to his face.

But I choose to accept those consequences in full. Because I have the power to do that.

I choose to be God of my own universe. If your God doesn't like it, he can come find me.

I'm choosing to reply to these comments even though this is a completely ridiculous conversation and I'm in no way obligated to do so.

This is worse than Freshman Psych. "I can SEE the jar, it's right in front of me... but what if we're just in The Matrix?" That's basically what you're pulling at.

And it's very, very silly. Denying the existence of Choice while proclaiming a belief in "God" is like saying you believe in Leprechauns but not rainbows. Who puts stuff like this in a person's head?
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I am Muslim.
And I am "choosing" to be nice and not tell you exactly what my thoughts are on THAT subject.

See? I am Nothing But A Big Ball Of Choices In Action.
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Old 05-04-2022, 12:35 AM   #56
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First line of your post, you said Electrical Impulses are not physical. I was not talking about Electrical Impulses, but the picture of Raphael playing a guitar which I am imagining.

Two different things altogether.

I also believe that people have the ability to choose by virtue of a non-physical soul which is not bound by physical laws. Just putting it out there to clarify, becuase I get the impression that you think that I believe choice doesn't exist.

But just because I believe choice exists, doesn't mean that we should try to maximise people's ability to make choices and not face consequences for them.

I'll read the rest of your post and respond later.

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Old 05-04-2022, 12:57 AM   #57
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First line of your post, you said Electrical Impulses are not physical.
No, I said they ARE physical. Read it again.

And that's what your memory and imagination are. Electrical impulses, reacting to stimuli. There's nothing mystical or spiritual or metaphysical about it.

You can choose to respond to the rest at your leisure, but I might choose to go to bed by then. I may choose to check this thread again tomorrow when I wake up, but I may also choose to smoke pot and eat Doritos and forget about this entire conversation, as that's a thing that sometimes happens.

The upside to that being, whenever I choose to skim through old threads, I'm legitimately cracked up by some of the sh*t I've said, because I sincerely don't remember 99% of it.

I do not choose to be so entertained or laugh quite so hard. But it simply can't be helped, as I really am that funny. Which is one more reason I choose to stick around; I recognize the bar needs raising, and I choose not to abandon people who so clearly need a role model.
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Old 05-04-2022, 01:00 AM   #58
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Ah, thats my bad. I meant to write "you said electrical impulses are physical".

I need to stop rushing my posts.
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Old 05-04-2022, 01:04 AM   #59
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This sounds like a sociological question, which from what I remember, proposes that choice is nothing more than an illusion and that we are instead being systematically guided towards those "choices" without actually realizing it. For instance, Leo could choose to go to sleep, but happens across something on the internet that makes him stay up and jerk off. Was it really his choice or was he influenced? It's the same with just about everything else.

Do we choose to follow the law because we're good people or do we follow the law because breaking it has repercussions? Would you still be a fan of all the same sports teams if you were born somewhere else? It's like a butterfly effect which is why many individuals who never met eachother could lead similar lives, have similar interests, and even meet the same fate. Not because they chose it, but because the larger inner-workings of society guided them there.
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Old 05-04-2022, 02:04 AM   #60
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Electrical impulses are still "physical". That's what your brain and your memories and your imagination are. Electrical impulses reacting to stimuli.
My core arguement is that our memories and imagination are not electrical impulses. Is their existence strongly correlated?

Sure, but correlation does not equal causation.

If you think of say, Rainbow Dash shooting laser beams out of her eyes, you won't find the thought anywhere in the physical world. You can draw a picture of her sure, but a drawing is an assortment of ink on paper, both physical products.

Even if you find the picture I described on Deviantart, its not the thought itself that you found. Just someone's attempt to represent that thought.

The "image" in your mind of Rainbow Dash shooting laser beams may be a construct and a thought, but that doesn't mean that it does not exist altogether. It may not exist physically, but it still has a presence nonethless in your subjective experience, which is a different realm than the physical world.

The objective and subjective realms may exist parallel to each other, but are different nonethless as they cannot change each other. I cannot beat the image of Rainbow Dash out of your conscience unless you let it, and I cannot bring Rainbow Dash from my thoughts into my backyard by willing it.

When we are making choices, we are imagining two different possibilites and then our body responds based on which possibility our subjective experience prefers. You chose to stay up late at night, after your imagination imagined two possibilities (staying up late vs early) and preferred one of them.

This imagination is inherently supernatural and metaphysical, precisely because it is not physical and cannot be touched, smelled, seen, heard or tasted. The electrical signals are the physical thing, because we can see them using our sense of sight, through the computer screen's pixels and we may even be able to touch them if we are gross enough to pop someone's brain open, but the electrical signal is not the imagination in of itself.

We cannot see, touch, smell, taste or hear the imagination.

This supernatural ability to contemplate and reflect is what makes you, you. Now, we may be able to make a Robot Leo656, which will stay up late some days and go to rest early some other days.

Is the robot Leo656 making a choice? No, because it lacks the capacity to imagine of its free will like the real Leo656 does, the robot runs purely on a script and it cannot dream like you do.

Once you open up to the possibility is that the physical world is not all that there is, then it becomes possible to argue for God through our intuitions, and examine the different world religions to find out which one is most in line with said intuitions. However, if you believe that only the physical exists and deny everything supernatural, then are our dreams, free will, subjective experience and imagination nothing but an illusion?.

If you take the time to elaborate, then that is much appreciated.
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