Is there no such thing as "choice"? If there is, how is there?

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

One of the main arguements against free will in modern science is how electrical signals pulse through the human brain seconds before any conscious decision is even made.

Again, citations.
I'm assuming you mean the pre-frontal association areas, but don't know for certain without citations.

I mean, it's not as though the brain is ever devoid of signals. Even if you're just sitting there your brain is still processing proprioception, sensory, and motor input.

What makes Science science is the ability to present receipts.
Where as just about any argument can be made using philosophical rhetoric.

[Prowler]

What if we're all living the Truman Show? Or are a bunch of lab mice being observed by giant alien scientists? I can't be the only one who occasionally thinks that, right?

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

Again, citations.
I'm assuming you mean the pre-frontal association areas, but don't know for certain without citations.

I mean, it's not as though the brain is ever devoid of signals. Even if you're just sitting there your brain is still processing proprioception, sensory, and motor input.

What makes Science science is the ability to present receipts.
Where as just about any argument can be made using philosophical rhetoric.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scientific+studies+free+will

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Prowler

Sure, memories are valuable but the reason we have them is because we made them. granted a lot of our experiences were a product of us being obliged to do them(going to school, for example), but still. And ofc a lot of our choices and preferences are influenced by our peers and society.

Peers and society are huge shaping things, of course. But those are still "things out of our control." There's a powderkeg of those every time one person that's the sum of their memories + their own unique brain chemistry bumps into another person that's the sum of their memories + unique brain chemistry. New variables are created, none of them voluntary, all of them giving us the illusion we're actually deciding or choosing anything of our own volition.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scientific+studies+free+will

So that's a another No, then.

I just don't think it's wise for you to make scientific proclamations when it's clear you have no actual background in the sciences.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

So that's a another No, then.

I just don't think it's wise for you to make scientific proclamations when it's clear you have no actual background in the sciences.

Its nice that you think that.

[plastroncafe]

Originally Posted by FredWolfLeonardo

Its nice that you think that.

Isn't it just?!
I think so too.



Here, this will help you moving forward:
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=elsevier+neuroscience+free+will

[Leonardo_thebest]

Looks like the Op's been listening to some Sam Harris! Hahaha.
There's a great doc on the subject, covers both sides of the argument, that being Fred Wolf Leonardo and Sumac.



Seeing as choice is an illusion, then this debate must have a foregone conclusion.
Impressed the Mods haven't shut this down yet.

[ProphetofGanja]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Seeing as choice is an illusion, then this debate must have a foregone conclusion.
Impressed the Mods haven't shut this down yet.

Okay, that was funny +10 points

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Seeing as choice is an illusion, then this debate must have a foregone conclusion.

Doesn't it? It's kind of best not to think about it too much. I think.

Impressed the Mods haven't shut this down yet.

Why would they? It's not religious or political. It's not even social.

[Leonardo_thebest]

Free will is the cornerstone of most faiths. An absence of free will means we are not culpable for our actions, so things like voting, or criminality take on new meaning.

If free will is an illusion, and we accept that, then nihilism becomes the default, and the concept of both God and Society dissolve.

Can't be held accountable for your actions if those actions are predetermined.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leonardo_thebest

Free will is the cornerstone of most faiths. An absence of free will means we are not culpable for our actions, so things like voting, or criminality take on new meaning.

If free will is an illusion, and we accept that, then nihilism becomes the default, and the concept of both God and Society dissolve.

Well, none of this this thinking is compatible with most/any faith-based religions. Because then there's a soul involved and why wouldn't there be free will, it's your invisible inner spirit or whatever. If you're a person "of Faith," there's really no point in even discussing this topic.

Can't be held accountable for your actions if those actions are predetermined.

Just because a murderer is only a murderer because of the sum of his memories and experiences and brain chemical balances/imbalances arrived him at that point doesn't mean we want that guy anywhere but locked up and/or dead himself. We do.

[Cure]

All these pseudo-intellectual threads are boring. I miss talking about dumb **** and calling Doom a pedophile.

[Leonardo_thebest]

My point was, if the gift that was given by "God" was B.S., proven to be so, then it would definitely erode a persons faith. The entire premise center around the responsibility of the individual, and their choice to do right or wrong, as defined by the church (I'm clearly using Christianity as an example, but it could easily be refitted to other faiths). Therefore, the bad person, had no choice but to be bad. Taken further, God, being omnipotent and omniscient, set in motion the bad deed. Therefore, the choice was gods, not the persons, and God is not perfect.

Once you establish God's gift is a lie, the religious get their knickers in a knot...

Originally Posted by Cure

All these pseudo-intellectual threads are boring. I miss talking about dumb **** and calling Doom a pedophile.

Right on cue.

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Just because a murderer is only a murderer because of the sum of his memories and experiences and brain chemical balances/imbalances arrived him at that point doesn't mean we want that guy anywhere but locked up and/or dead himself. We do.

So if someone commits a crime, but had no choice in the matter, you feel we should punish them? I suppose, if that's your role, to inflict punishment, if that makes you feel good, I suppose you must.

The question is, to what extent do we live in a deterministic world.

What if, it's not all deterministic? What about probabilistic? What if we're still a slave, but to an unstable system? Quantum physics might have something to say about our consciousness, and why we make decisions at all.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Yeah, but that still falls under the realm of "things out of our control," i.e., from no independent "choice" of our own.

I think it goes both ways: we can make choice, but it can be rendered meaningless by "things out of control".
Sometimes we are lucky and out choice is not disrupted.
So we go back to the Chaos.

On one hand, you can say that Chaos is not an absence of free will, but the very the nature of Chaos abhors free will, because, choice is representation of Order, i.e. it's something that should go from "point A to point B". In another words, conscious choice is a system - an opposite of Chaos.

On the other hand, what if not free will is representation of Chaos? Life itself is a Chaos incarnated, and our choices, whether they are dictated by our fickle brain chemistry or outside interference, a prolongation of it, since without choice there is no Chaos. Only system.

But essentially, I think, if you approach problem of choice from this positions, you come to the conclusion, that choice representation of both Chaos and Order. It originates from systems within our bodies, but at the same time, often informed by random desires and outside factors.

Originally Posted by plastroncafe

So that's a another No, then.

I just don't think it's wise for you to make scientific proclamations when it's clear you have no actual background in the sciences.

I like that you use science as your personal whore.

When it agrees with you - you all about science.
When it disagrees with you - it immediately "knows nothing".
Twice as hilarious that you still refuse to show your "credentials", which you use to bully others into accepting your point of view.

[Refractive Reflections]

Are there some here experiencing an existential crisis here? These philosophical threads about choice, religious views, etc. are becoming too popular.

[FredWolfLeonardo]

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

Are there some here experiencing an existential crisis here? These philosophical threads about choice, religious views, etc. are becoming too popular.

I know for a fact that I don't have an existensial crisis.

[Sumac]

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

Are there some here experiencing an existential crisis here? These philosophical threads about choice, religious views, etc. are becoming too popular.

Just some users want to troll and bring some drama.

[Refractive Reflections]

Looks like Tonya Harding's words from "I, Tonya" would be applicable here then for these philosophical threads, "...There's no such thing as truth. Everyone has their own truth."

[Ninjinister]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

Snip

How big was the bowl?

Originally Posted by Refractive Reflections

Are there some here experiencing an existential crisis here? These philosophical threads about choice, religious views, etc. are becoming too popular.

I know I definitely am but I try not to leak that into a message board about cartoons.

EDIT: See folks, THAT is a legitimate use of "leak"!