TMNT Macro-Series: Raphael Preview and Discussion

[AquaParade]

I am really fond of Kevin's dialogue. He so easily sells Raph and Casey's friendship to me whenever he is writing for them. I love the weird insults he's always using like "200 year old baboon" or "chuckleheads".

Yeah, I usually demand something more from dialogue, but it just feels natural to me when Kevin writes the turtles. I really enjoy it.

Originally Posted by AquaParade

I am really fond of Kevin's dialogue. He so easily sells Raph and Casey's friendship to me whenever he is writing for them. I love the weird insults he's always using like "200 year old baboon" or "chuckleheads".

Yeah, I usually demand something more from dialogue, but it just feels natural to me when Kevin writes the turtles. I really enjoy it.

It does work with Raph and Casey, but Alopex and Angel? Not really.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Igglet

It does work with Raph and Casey, but Alopex and Angel? Not really.

Boy oh boy, I won't even give you THAT.

It doesn't work for anybody. Ugh.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Boy oh boy, I won't even give you THAT.

It doesn't work for anybody. Ugh.

Hey, hey, I'm trying to please both sides here

[ChosenOne]

It could work with Bebop and Rocksteady, but I don't think Eastman has ever written them. Could be wrong.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

It could work with Bebop and Rocksteady, but I don't think Eastman has ever written them. Could be wrong.

...

It MIGHT. They'd be the only characters, that's for sure. But huh. It could work.

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Igglet

It does work with Raph and Casey, but Alopex and Angel? Not really.

Can't argue with you there. I can see how some view it as stilted or awkward. It's really just his Raph & Casey dynamic I love.

And, like I alluded to above, there's something incredibly charming, to me, about hearing Casey call the turtles "chuckleheads".

Originally Posted by AquaParade

Can't argue with you there. I can see how some view it as stilted or awkward. It's really just his Raph & Casey dynamic I love.

And, like I alluded to above, there's something incredibly charming, to me, about hearing Casey call the turtles "chuckleheads".

His style of writing just has that very 90s feel to it I think, which I personally don't mind with some characters but, with some others like Alopex and Angel, it doesn't.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Igglet

His style of writing just has that very 90s feel to it I think, which I personally don't mind with some characters but, with some others like Alopex and Angel, it doesn't.

It reads like an early 90's Image comic drawn by Rob Liefield.

[CyberCubed]

Kevin Eastman's writing hasn't changed at all since the 80's. Read any of the Mirage shorts he did most of which are collected in Shell Shock or Ultimate Collection 6, it's just how he writes dialogue.

Back in the 80's when his TMNT stories were nothing more than short gag comics or urban violence arcs it didn't matter, but it hasn't aged well. It's the same reason the two annuals were difficult to read.

[Sophie Campbell]

Originally Posted by ChosenOne

I hesitate to blame it on Sophie because that's right around the time when Alopex's primary goal (to turn against Shredder at a key moment as revenge for her family's deaths) was fulfilled. It's hardly a single artist's fault that she became mostly aimless afterwards, and only showed up when an extra fighter was required to flesh out the action. Look at Mikey: silly and cutesy most of the time, but he's a character with a clear-cut purpose. Alopex just needs a new goal and a new motivation post-Shredder, which she hasn't had so far.

Oh, I definitely take responsibility for cute fluffy Alopex. Although I always draw Alopex as taller than the Turtles, Mateus is the one who later made her short and wee! And he and other artists took cues from me, nobody forced them, but yeah I got the ball rolling on Cute Alopex for sure.

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

Okay, but Kevin's absolutely killing it with his artstyle this time around!

He looks like he's trying to match more of the IDW "brand" of style than using his own (as he has with the special covers and that one issue we never speak of), and it looks pretty amazing.

The art is by Ben Bishop! Kevin worked on the layouts but the finished art is Ben.

[ChosenOne]

Originally Posted by Sophie Campbell

Oh, I definitely take responsibility for cute fluffy Alopex. Although I always draw Alopex as taller than the Turtles, Mateus is the one who later made her short and wee! And he and other artists took cues from me, nobody forced them, but yeah I got the ball rolling on Cute Alopex for sure.

Oh, I meant writing/characterization-wise. Your first big contribution to this iteration happened to coincide with the moment when we saw a whole new side of Alopex that she never got to show as a member of the Foot Clan, for obvious reasons. The near-psychotic killer who liked to pretend her targets were the Turtles is a far cry from who she became without the Shredder's influence, so the progression of her arc sort of forced your hand there, I feel. Although one can also interpret it as a chicken-or-egg sort of thing... It's a perfect storm of events with probably no clear answer.

[ChosenOne]

Well, that was certainly much better than I anticipated! It's clear that Eastman didn't write the whole thing, especially...

Spoiler:

...Tang Shen's monologue.

I wonder if Bishop's phase two will have anything to do with a certain mutant crocodilian?

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Yeah, this was kind of a weird one. Not as bad as I was expecting; not what I was hoping for, either.

I think this story shouldn't have been contained to a one-shot... the scope felt too big for one issue, and condensing it to this made it feel just kind of random. No idea what Bishop is doing or why, or how Raph is so strong to break out of all that hardware.

Spoiler:

But the homeless Raph flashbacks and the Tang Shen conversation made it a worthwhile issue. Good, just not great.

This was fun! Honestly, when I first read this issue, my thoughts were a lot more mixed than the second time. It's because my expectations for this issue were wildly different from what we actually got and I think some people might agree with me there.

Coming into this issue, I expected some big event that'd define the entire road ahead towards #100. Until the very last moment, I was expecting Bishop to drop some big bombshell about how he's created some megaweapon or something. This wasn't that sort of issue. Honestly, I'm happy with that. There are, however, still a few things that I wasn't too particularly fond of and I think anyone who read the issue can already guess what they are.

You can see how much Eastman loves writing Raph, honestly. This issue gave the guy so many badass moments. He's pretty much the physical manifestation of "Local man too angry to die". The action was great and the way he tore through the EPF guys just brings me back to my point about Eastman's love for Raph. Funnily enough, I'd say every Macro sort of builds up their respective turtle as the best one except the Donnie one where he just makes a ton of dumb mathematical mistakes (not saying that as a bad thing, just something I noticed).

And there's also obviously his internal struggle with always feeling pain, never getting an opportunity to rest, it's great, honestly. Him walking down the street, remembering Buck, I liked it. However, I'd say that a few of the lines are honestly so cheesy it physically hurt me, and I'm not talking about the lines he exchanged with Casey because that was obviously meant to be dumb, but rather his internal conversation with his mother, at least some parts of it. I genuinely didn't mind it too much, though.

I mentioned it before but Eastman just has that 90s way of writing dialogue and it's apparent. I'd actually say it worked really well with Raph and Casey, but Alopex and Angel? Not so much. Still, I actually liked the two of them in this issue. As for Casey, he might've actually been my favorite part of this whole issue if I'm being honest. I also like how the four of them are sort of a team of vigilantes, it's an interesting concept.

Curious to hear what everyone else thought about this issue. Overall, the Macro-Series has been absolutely great. My ranking of the issues is Mikey > Donnie > Raph > Leo.

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

Originally Posted by Igglet

Curious to hear what everyone else thought about this issue. Overall, the Macro-Series has been absolutely great. My ranking of the issues is Mikey > Donnie > Raph > Leo.

Oof. If I had to rank them, my favorite is easy... the other three are a little harder to nail down.

Leonardo is the favorite; it's quiet and consistently turns expectations on their heads. The closest IDW has ever come to Mirage, IMO.

I'll have to give second place to Michelangelo, for continuing to draw so much delicious conflict out of Splinter's leadership of the Foot Clan and how it affects the Turtles. My only problem with it would be how Mikey is, again, kind of stupidly naive about the situation and his ability to "rescue" the children.

Third and fourth place are a toss-up... I'll give the better ranking to Donatello, though, because nothing reads cheesy and out of character. Also, I've been dying for Donnie and Harold to get back together as tech buddies, and it made Metalhead the most compelling and formidable he's ever been. Also I loved callbacks to Future Don bailing on his family and the guilt Don's still carrying because of it.

And last and least, the Raphael issue. I despise Kevin Eastman's dialogue so very much, and this story really didn't deliver on the action or Bishop versus Raph fight I was hoping for. But like I previously mentioned, the homeless Raph flashbacks and the Tang Shen stuff were both true gold. So unlike the Annuals and Universe back-ups Kevin wrote, this issue I'll actually reread every time I reread the TMNT series.

Originally Posted by CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy

Oof. If I had to rank them, my favorite is easy... the other three are a little harder to nail down.

Leonardo is the favorite; it's quiet and consistently turns expectations on their heads. The closest IDW has ever come to Mirage, IMO.

I'll have to give second place to Michelangelo, for continuing to draw so much delicious conflict out of Splinter's leadership of the Foot Clan and how it affects the Turtles. My only problem with it would be how Mikey is, again, kind of stupidly naive about the situation and his ability to "rescue" the children.

Third and fourth place are a toss-up... I'll give the better ranking to Donatello, though, because nothing reads cheesy and out of character. Also, I've been dying for Donnie and Harold to get back together as tech buddies, and it made Metalhead the most compelling and formidable he's ever been. Also I loved callbacks to Future Don bailing on his family and the guilt Don's still carrying because of it.

And last and least, the Raphael issue. I despise Kevin Eastman's dialogue so very much, and this story really didn't deliver on the action or Bishop versus Raph fight I was hoping for. But like I previously mentioned, the homeless Raph flashbacks and the Tang Shen stuff were both true gold. So unlike the Annuals and Universe back-ups Kevin wrote, this issue I'll actually reread every time I reread the TMNT series.

Interesting! I actually mostly agree with your rankings (as you saw before) albeit for pretty different reasons.

I found Mikey being stupidly naive to be one of the best parts of the issue and it absolutely nailed his character. Mikey's SUPPOSED to be stupidly naive. The plot didn't treat it as him making the correct choice or whatever because it was apparent that he had no idea what he was doing and that the entire thing was doomed to fail from the start. He's naive, childish but always out to do the right thing. The issue just nailed his characterization for me and every moment was so fun, I swear I was giggling like a 6 year old as I was reading through it.

I think that you pretty much nailed my thoughts about the Donnie issue. It didn't really have anything that blew me away and the plot itself just felt like a complete side-story but the character interactions carried it all and made it one of the best issues of IDW TMNT in my opinion, the level of quality was consistently top notch.

And, honestly, I really didn't find Eastman's dialogue to be a problem and thought it fit really well for Casey and Raph. I was also hoping for a bit of a Raph vs. Bishop showdown but what we got didn't disappoint me whatsoever, and I absolutely agree that the Buck/Tang Shen stuff was great, though the latter had some really cheesy elements in it I think.

I've talked about why I don't like the Leo Macro a couple of times already so I'm not gonna rant about that again so I don't sound like an ass again

[neatoman]

This was pretty great, I really like the additions to Raph's backstory.

I did spot one minor continuity error. Remember how Bishop told Mikey and Mondo he wasn't interested in studying mutants anymore and just wanted to throw them in a ditch? Guess he really changed his mind on that one.

Originally Posted by neatoman

This was pretty great, I really like the additions to Raph's backstory.

I did spot one minor continuity error. Remember how Bishop told Mikey and Mondo he wasn't interested in studying mutants anymore and just wanted to throw them in a ditch? Guess he really changed his mind on that one.

I think that has to do with the Turtles being... well, the Turtles. Bishop mentions that they seem to be special for some reason.

[AquaParade]

So for those of you who dislike Kevin's dialogue, how do you feel about Tom Waltz's dialogue for the main series?

I'm in no way contending that Kevin is better than Tom at writing. Like I said, I understand the complaints regarding Kevin's dialogue.

That said, I much prefer Kevin's dialogue because while it's often basic/simple, it has a charm to it! Whereas, I'm guessing many prefer Tom's dialogue, and all due respect to the man (I enjoy his concept/plot ideas), I find it much harder to get through the dialogue than with Kevin. It just lacks any sort of personality or charm to me.

Strictly talking dialogue here. I wouldn't leave it up to Kevin to write/plot the entire series over Tom. And for the record, I think they're both talented dudes.