Is it actually an improvement for Splinter to start out as Hamato Yoshi?

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

well now I feel like I need a chart of how the mutagen is treated in all the different versions of tmnt.

Mirage, 4Kids, original movies, first PD movie:

• It turns animals into humanoids, that's all it ever does.

Fred Wolf, Archie:

• Turns things into hybrids
• Seemingly works the same as in Mirage when no humans are present
• Fuses man to trash
• Turns man into goop
• Fuses animals of the same species together
• Fuses micro organisms to ice
• Turns rocks into rock soldiers
• Probably other things I can't remember

IDW

• In it's most raw form, it's a regeneration formula. If it does anything but regenerate lost tissue, restore youth or increase muscle mass, it has been altered. If any chemicals that alter the substance are used on their own the subject will die quickly.
• One variant does turn animals into humanoids (but somehow also caused a colony of flatworms to share a hivemind). A brain altering formula is required to ensure the subject don't become an idiot.
• Another variant creates creates hybrids and depends on what DNA has been added to it. The humanoids variant seeming turns into this when inside the blood of a mutant. Effects can seemingly be reversed with a cyybernetic pump.
• One variant seems to fuse things together but it's never been intentionally used and was seemingly in testing stages.
• If not kept sealed for long enough, any variant will yield worse results.

Nick

• In general it creates hybrids, in general.
• In it's natural state it's literally milk and regulates the ecosystem in Dimension X.
• Utroms are seemingly immune to the effects.
• It turns men into pizza when used as a pizza topping.
• It can cause existing mutants to mutate even further.
• It can fuse three different lifeforms together.
• It can create animal-plant hybrids.
• Can allegedly be used to create restorative medicine (though it seemingly didn't work).
• It can cause massive brain growth.
• It can give you psychic powers without any visible deformities.
• It can give mushrooms powerful fear toxins.
• It can fuse men to trash.
• It can cause body parts to come loose and mutate into their beings.
• It can cause rats to become giant monsters with plenty of deformities but without signs of hybridisation or a humanoid appearence.
• It can cause humans to become more Utrom-like, despite the Utroms being immune.
• It can turn cats into ice cream.
• It can turn men into goop.
• It made Shredder part metal.
• It gave squirrels the ability to reproduce within host bodies.
• It turned a car itself into a monster that could possess people.
• It gave wasps mind control powers and made them giant without any other deformities.
• It takes a long time to make a cure unless you add random nonsense to it so you can instead do it instantly.

Second PD movie:

• It... finds some ancestral DNA and turns you into something related to it, regardless of wheter that thing would logicially be part of the evolutionary line or not.

Rise

• It generally creates hybrids, usually based on what the individual ate or wore.
• Some arbitrary additional effects may happen, there's no logical reason Ghost Bear gets phasing powers but he does.
• Draxum thinks of Yokai and mutants as interchangeable, so it's not always clear what we see are mutants and what are Yokai.

That's basically it. Generally speaking, Mirage has the simplest rules, IDW has the most complex and Nick has the least amount of rules (pretty much none).

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

what if you have a COVID virus on you at the same time you touch an ant... do you become COVID-Antman?

Oh, and lets not forget the bacteria that lives inside and on us all and is more of a living thing than a virus. I would think that in the mutation of ANY creature, human or otherwise, where contact come into play, most recent and closest contact should always be bacteria.

Maybe that could have been an explanation for what happened to Mutagen Man. Bacteria doesn't exactly provide much to go on for a new physical form. But then every mutated creature should have turned into that. lol



Although COVID-Antman as a villain sounds like a good pandemic themed superhero movie. Gotta stop that evil super shredder spreader.

Originally Posted by neatoman

Second PD movie:

• It... finds some ancestral DNA and turns you into something related to it, regardless of wheter that thing would logicially be part of the evolutionary line or not.

Also, if Donnie tinkers with the same mutagen for a minute it could turn Turtles into humans. (So... human DNA required...? Ancient humans? )

[Dejablue]

The way the second PD movie described it was so stupid my brain hurt as I watched the movie. I think even the 2012 cartoon's logic wasn't that bad. how does one human have ancestral rhino genes and another have ancestral warthog genes....just...no.

[Galactus]

I can genuinely go both ways on this issue and it's all been said already but I do feel that all this discussion and debate does highlight how important it is for new versions of the property not to skip the origin.

Like there is important stuff that needs to be laid down for TMNT to work like how the mutagen works, what is it's purpose etc. Whether Splinter is Yoshi's pet or Yoshi himself may seem trivial but it does fundamentally alter his relationship with their primary antagonist.

Jumping in and sorting out the details later may seem lime a good idea to jump to the good stuff but we Nederland the basics nailed down first.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

The way the second PD movie described it was so stupid my brain hurt as I watched the movie. I think even the 2012 cartoon's logic wasn't that bad. how does one human have ancestral rhino genes and another have ancestral warthog genes....just...no.

Makes me laugh to be honest, because it sounds like it was written by someone who hasn't a single clue how evolution works. Like they did just two seconds of "research" on it and landed on a creationist site's wacky and wholly inaccurate "explanation" on that "theory" they reject.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

The way the second PD movie described it was so stupid my brain hurt as I watched the movie. I think even the 2012 cartoon's logic wasn't that bad. how does one human have ancestral rhino genes and another have ancestral warthog genes....just...no.

It would have been better if they said everyone has an animal they identify with in personality or possesses an animal-like trait. Such as how some people can look like their pets. Or cliches such as sly as a fox, shy as a mouse, kinda thing.

Then I would have bought Bebop and Rocksteady's transformation at lot easier rather than saying that they somehow possess Rino or Warthog genes.

[neatoman]

The second PD movie is easily the worst depiction of the mutagen ever. FW and Nick might have inconsistant results across the board the point of almost having no rules, but at least I can the necessary building blocks are present so you can see the logic. Makes no sense why it would make a chicken brain bigger when it otherwise targets the entire body, why it would make a cat into a pile of ice cream when it otherwise operates on DNA or why it would turn a car into a monster when it's... not a living being and has no DNA to work with. But at least I can say that a brain, ice cream and a car are present in those instances. There is no way in hell that a human being has enough DNA in common with a Rhino to become a Rhino monster.

All they had to do was have Krang say "mix in DNA to make it work" and then depict Baxter add in "Rhino" and "Warthog" vials to the mixture. That's all they had to do in order to not be entirely retarded.

[Leo656]

What's very telling, at least to me, is the fact that based on what we've seen, we the audience are clearly not expected to give a sh*t about any of this stuff, when most of us clearly do. But we're obviously not supposed to, because they're so haphazard with their presentation of the subject of "ooze"/mutagen that no two out of a half-dozen or more disparate versions of the sh*t in over 30 years work the same at all. Based on how inconsistent it is, one could assume that, in the minds of the writers, it's the least important thing in the entire story, when clearly to many of us who read and view that is not the case at all.

I mean, no TMNT writer on any book, movie or TV show has ever come out and said "Don't worry about it, it's Magic", but that's clearly how they look at it when they write the stories.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Leo656

What's very telling, at least to me, is the fact that based on what we've seen, we the audience are clearly not expected to give a sh*t about any of this stuff, when most of us clearly do. But we're obviously not supposed to, because they're so haphazard with their presentation of the subject of "ooze"/mutagen that no two out of a half-dozen or more disparate versions of the sh*t in over 30 years work the same at all. Based on how inconsistent it is, one could assume that, in the minds of the writers, it's the least important thing in the entire story, when clearly to many of us who read and view that is not the case at all.

I mean, no TMNT writer on any book, movie or TV show has ever come out and said "Don't worry about it, it's Magic", but that's clearly how they look at it when they write the stories.

That's a fair point. I remember watching Michelle Ivey interview Tom Waltz for her show, Cowabunga Corner... oh, this was a few years back now, just prior to issue #50 of IDW dropping, and Tom Waltz said something like (major paraphrasing) "the ooze is mysterious and should only serve as a plot device for whatever story the writer/creator is trying to tell."

Now, does that mean they can do whatever the hell they want with it? I think so. I don't think the ooze is supposed to have much meaning beyond, oh, it transformed our terrible terrapins and lowly lil' rat vermin into humanoid ninjas.

I think consistency isn't important in relation to ALL the incarnations, as long as its function makes sense for a particular story/incarnation.

[Leo656]

Oh, my mistake, then. That definitely indeed sounds like he just said "It's Magic."

Ah well. I can't say I'm surprised.

[Dejablue]

I don't really care about the origins of mutagen but its very important for the way it works to make sense. Otherwise you could just say mutagen is Phoenix Down and bring people back from the dead. And on that note I suspect its best to keep what it can do very limited. At least for more "mature" versions of tmnt story telling.

Like okay yeah if you want to sell toys then that mutagen is going to be an elixir of bullsh*t and miracles. But personally I don't want it to behave that way.

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by Dejablue

I don't really care about the origins of mutagen but its very important for the way it works to make sense. Otherwise you could just say mutagen is Phoenix Down and bring people back from the dead. And on that note I suspect its best to keep what it can do very limited. At least for more "mature" versions of tmnt story telling.

Like okay yeah if you want to sell toys then that mutagen is going to be an elixir of bullsh*t and miracles. But personally I don't want it to behave that way.

Was that seriously a Final Fantasy 7 reference in 2020? Damn, homie! You're awesome.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by neatoman

All they had to do was have Krang say "mix in DNA to make it work" and then depict Baxter add in "Rhino" and "Warthog" vials to the mixture. That's all they had to do in order to not be entirely retarded.

Exactly, and the fact that it would require only just a very few seconds of dialogue to smooth that out is shameful that they didn't.

Originally Posted by Dejablue

an elixir of bullsh*t and miracles.

Aaahahaha!

I want this on a TMNT shirt. A fabulously self aware one done for humor.

[Coola Yagami]

Originally Posted by PizzaPower1985

Was that seriously a Final Fantasy 7 reference in 2020? Damn, homie! You're awesome.

Not like they made a remake recently or anything.

[victory_angel]

Originally Posted by Coola Yagami

Not like they made a remake recently or anything.

Phoenix Down have been a revival potion in other incarnations of final fantasy such as 8, 9, 10, X2, and 12 so it's more of a reference to the final fantasy franchise in general, not just 7.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Oh, my mistake, then. That definitely indeed sounds like he just said "It's Magic."

Ah well. I can't say I'm surprised.

Well, considering the origins of Leatherhead, Jagwar and Dreadmond is literally and explicitly magic in the Archie series, then you might as well go with that. Like I said, the mutagen does not need to be the one explaination for having humanoids and monstrosities running around.
Although, to be fair, Magic also comes with some expecations (see "magic systems") but I don't see much in terms of self-contradiction when it comes to this particular area. Even if there was, you can still go with the idea that the humanoids are aliens or cryptids.

[Leo656]

Jagwar's origins are... interesting.

It's all a work. What really happened with Juntarra was more like that scene near the end of "Clerks II", just with a jaguar instead of a donkey. But of course she's not gonna tell her KID that's how he was conceived.

Man, that must've been one crazy Yom Kippur.

[ABrown]

My preference is for Splinter to have originated as an ordinary rat, rather than as Hamato Yoshi. However, I thought that the original cartoon handled him originating as Yoshi very well.

[neatoman]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Jagwar's origins are... interesting.

It's all a work. What really happened with Juntarra was more like that scene near the end of "Clerks II", just with a jaguar instead of a donkey. But of course she's not gonna tell her KID that's how he was conceived.

Man, that must've been one crazy Yom Kippur.

Well, you know, pretty weird circumstances would make you actually want to take the barbed cat dick.

Anyway, I did remember there is a story in which Splinter allows himself to get possessed by a ghost who explicitly has the power to transfer centuries of martial arts experience into other people. Don't think that's inteded to be a factor in his abilities, but it's worth consideration.

Spoiler:

[PizzaPower1985]

Originally Posted by neatoman

Well, you know, pretty weird circumstances would make you actually want to take the barbed cat dick.

Anyway, I did remember there is a story in which Splinter allows himself to get possessed by a ghost who explicitly has the power to transfer centuries of martial arts experience into other people. Don't think that's inteded to be a factor in his abilities, but it's worth consideration.

Spoiler:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ch74R7wdd...c42/RCO010.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YymFmlEFG...c42/RCO011.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yr8NIrVrj...2/RCO027_w.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n3GAidvgS...2/RCO028_w.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZCfQCkqmi...c42/RCO030.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eVk0bhwUa...c42/RCO032.JPG

When I first read that issue I didn't completely understand how that worked. It has since become one of my favorite TMNT issues.