So I saw my first full episodes of Rise...

[Vegita-San]

Originally Posted by The Great Saiyaman

So does this improve?

the last 'great series' really didn't.

it had much more potential for greatness, and never really reached it. it'll be forgotten within a few years, I think...and this will never hit memory.

[snake]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

It is when not taken out of context like that. The bigger issue for me is the part you omitted, about how little it resembles past Turtle media.

Bare in mind that I have a more liberal attitude than many towards this show, but I still have to take issue with just how much filler there is. Granted, lots of shows have filler episodes between the main adventure, but this show barely seems to HAVE a main adventure. Even if I tried to get invested in it, and even if I succeeded, the padding would make me feel betrayed.

Why does a TMNT show have to resemble past incarnations? I'd rather new ideas than poorly aping the same plot beats all other incarnations do.

Cut the filler BS out, too. It's a comedic, one off show that focuses on singular episodes being entertaining. Not everything has to contribute to a larger story, and there's nothing wrong with that when the one-off episodes are decent. It literally wouldn't make sense tonally to have random "serious" moments interspersed with wacky turtle adventures.

Filler is an anime term that refers to stuff that was added to pad out the show when it was getting caught up to the source material. You can't say Rise has filler because there IS no source material.

The autists on here don't seem to understand that's the sh*t that killed 2k12. They had no f*cking clue whether they wanted an action show or a comedy, and ended up with a mediocre, half-baked product in the end.

[Galactus]

Originally Posted by newfan

I think they are supposed to start out inexperienced, it's them at an earlier point than we have seen them before, or so I remember the description.

The "prequel" aspect of this doesn't make a bit of sense.

I suppose this is a cross to bare with all prequel series of this type; Think Smallville and Gotham that we are supposed to accept that the heroes had great adventures and met most of their allies and enemies before they are officially supposed to but it's even weirder here.

The turtles are teenagers, their skills seem about as developed as it is any other version, they already fight crime and know April. Most of the important stuff that you'd expect in a prequel series is already there. They already had their signature weapons but lost them and it's going to seem weird if in the finale of this series they give up their super cool magic and tech weapons in favour of metal and wood again.

I have a feeling that that they just wanted to do something something drastically different and tacked on the whole "prequel" aspect as a way to mitigate the changes in the eyes of fans. So people think okay eventually it will start resembling an actual TMNT show.

[Konchadunga]

I agree that a new adaptation can try too hard to immitate past ones at times. 2012's Leatherhead episode felt half worthless to me since half of it was almost identical to 2003's Leatherhead episode.

But if you're going out of your way to make your TMNT adaptation different from past incarnations, you have to expect at least a little bit of backlash. A lot of fans have a specific idea of what they want from this series due to going through long periods of something contrary to it.

Of course, I'm not going to make them out to be more obsessed than they actually are. Most people don't care enough to spend much time whining about this. But they aren't obliged to care enough to support an incarnation they find less than ideal, either.

By this point, Ninja Turtles has shown it can be just about anything, but not everyone likes everything, which I would argue means that people who like something the Turtles did need not support something else anymore than they need to support something unrelated to them.

[snake]

Personally I'd take 100 hit or miss new ideas than another adaption of City at War that resembles the original in name only.

[IndigoErth]

I hope someday writers/producers/whatevers get over this stupid belief that in order to make something new you have to go overboard.

If you feel the urge to go so far that you'd entirely throw out who characters are as individuals, particularly those established over a long history of a franchise, and it's practically just him/her/whoever in name only... then what the hell, bug off and go make a different show that's about someone else, because at that point it pretty much already is.

I totally welcome new stories and adventures, preferably set in another time period in their lives rather than trying to be a reboot, but I want to see those approached the way Leo, Donnie, Raph, and Mikey normally would in their own ways. I mean, sans reboot portions, the whole Mystic thing could have worked for that. But even now they're so far largely wasting the potential of that theme since they rarely touch it.

Any tweaks to personalities and other traits would be better off taking a step back to a better period to correct something, such as pulling Mikey back from the stupid side. It's nice that 'Rise' HAS kind of done that... but their method has made him kind of bland; probably partly at fault of making them all too similar so he doesn't really shine that much on his own anymore. Mikey doesn't really feel like the heart of the group anymore either. (The heart is half empty, the brains are selfish, the muscles have gone soft, and the refined, sharp, focused strategy is off scratching his butt somewhere and feeling impressed with himself for no reason...) So far this show really wouldn't lose much of anything in the absence of any one of these Turtles, or if only one of them existed in this series, which is a shame. If they intend on making them grow as characters, then this far in they really aught to start getting on that.

[snake]

It's not about "going overboard", it's about doing things that are interesting to the writers and seeing what works. Again, the intention of the show and people's expectations are in two completely different places. The Rise turtles have more personality and are less cookie-cutter than 2k3, FW, and IDW. Their interactions feel real and have more depth to them beyond "this one MAD", "this one SILLY".

If you want a serious incarnation just read IDW instead of waiting for it to come to tv, because that's not happening in this day and age.

[IndigoErth]

The day some other version turns them all into girls... I'm gonna hate it, but will be grabbing the popcorn and watching how many hit their limit of what they're willing to defend and accept being done to these guys.

The rage that will ensue. But I'mma be like, but it's new and the writers like it, it ain't made for us, not for people who like TMNT.

[snake]

There’s nothing wrong with a genderbent multiverse incarnation.

[Konchadunga]

I’ll be honest, gender-flipping can theoretically work but I can’t think of any time it hasn’t felt like a cheap attention trick since very little else about the characters changes. Granted, I haven’t looked too hard, but I think instead of gender-flipping everyone, doing it with just a few characters and considering how others will react differently is the most interesting prospect. For that matter, it might actually be more interesting to try to add Venus to another adaptation than gender-flipping everyone else.

As for the other stuff, while I’ll grant the turtles can be prone to flanderization, their easily identifiable personalities are part of the brand’s inherent charm to many people. Lots of us can see ourselves in at least one of the turtles, while seeing interactions with others that thus feel relevant. Multifaceted personalities may make the turtles “deeper”, but character depth is kind of a moot point in a show that often lacks a central narrative and splits it’s episodes into segments. I personally need more time and intimacy to enjoy such depth, while for the purposes of rapid fire plots, giving characters blatant personalities helps such plots move gracefully,

[Utrommaniac]

I guess that's part of the reason why I'm not too bothered by the turtles personalities being the way they are. It's interesting to see Leo without having experienced the burden of leadership, even if that means him being a sarcastic cutup. But he's absolutely not a "second Mike", and more of a renewal of what the 80's Raphael was.
Which is sarcastic and snide. Which Mike is pretty much never. Mike's artistic talents are just played up a lot more, but his personality is pretty much unchanged. Also, he seems to have better culinary taste, at last.

Likewise, I also like Raph not being a grumbling cup-half-empty grump. He's still tough and imposing, but he's also a big pointy teddy bear.


Don is...finally stretching his Mad Scientist potential. I'm pretty sure he and Leo have similar affinities for sarcasm is because they're the same age (being considered twins in some circles).


The one thing I can't completely get settled into is how many rely on a fast pace, especially with how short the episodes run. My favorite episodes are when things slow down a little bit (or...have Big Mama, she's fun).


With the way TV runs these days, the most recent half-hour episode pretty much means a tone change from here on out and there will be more and more sprinklings of serious elements.

[IndigoErth]

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

It's interesting to see Leo without having experienced the burden of leadership

[Note, this comment isn't really directed at you personally. I've just seen similar said elsewhere and bugs me for the given reason.]

To consider that Leo's normal personality, outside of 'Rise,' is then therefore a fraud, that without the "job" of leadership he's just an asshat and his perspectives, values, and his approach to everything is artificial and merely dictated by said job...is genuinely depressing.

People are so blindly stuck on this assumption that all that he is is based on the label "is the leader." (So untrue.) To the point that when they want to take that "burden" off his shoulders, what do they do... instead of leaning on his actual personality traits and letting those shine more with that stress off of him, they just throw it all out. Really sad.

Why not consider how he tends to be "off the clock," at home where he defers to Splinter's command of the family and himself in a subordinate position, and play off of that. (Likewise to some extent when Splinter participates in a battle and Leo's not the top guy in charge.) When the burden is off of him because dad has the say, and when he's able to relax at home and do his own thing, there is an example of who he is beyond is job title.

Still, I keep waiting and hoping this show has an ace up its sleeve, though it'll probably just play for me for a fool and keep me waiting for nothing. Not expecting everything to be "fixed" and turn into what I want TMNT to be... but growing the characters in a good direction would be a plus.

[Konchadunga]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

[Note, this comment isn't really directed at you personally. I've just seen similar said elsewhere and bugs me for the given reason.]

To consider that Leo's normal personality, outside of 'Rise,' is then therefore a fraud, that without the "job" of leadership he's just an asshat and his perspectives, values, and his approach to everything is artificial and merely dictated by said job...is genuinely depressing.

People are so blindly stuck on this assumption that all that he is is based on the label "is the leader." (So untrue.) To the point that when they want to take that "burden" off his shoulders, what do they do... instead of leaning on his actual personality traits and letting those shine more with that stress off of him, they just throw it all out. Really sad.

Why not consider how he tends to be "off the clock," at home where he defers to Splinter's command of the family and himself in a subordinate position, and play off of that. (Likewise to some extent when Splinter participates in a battle and Leo's not the top guy in charge.) When the burden is off of him because dad has the say, and when he's able to relax at home and do his own thing, there is an example of who he is beyond is job title.

Still, I keep waiting and hoping this show has an ace up its sleeve, though it'll probably just play for me for a fool and keep me waiting for nothing. Not expecting everything to be "fixed" and turn into what I want TMNT to be... but growing the characters in a good direction would be a plus.

The biggest problem with doing that, in THIS show, is that it's Splinter isn't much a leader either. He's usually depicted as a lazy, bumbling, clumsy, maybe even senile old man. It's the sort of characterization that can work as it's own thing, although it seems everyone who doesn't find it funny instead finds it annoying, but it just feels wrong when the show turns around and tries to make him the tough, venerable leader. If only the show displayed him developing into a more ideal hero, and had it stick, that would be alright, but just going back and forth between the two makes for a show that seems more like two different shows; maybe more, prompting us to wonder "When is TMNT not TMNT?"

There are, of course, plenty of people who think certain incarnations of TMNT have crossed that line already, but I don't see how that helps this show's case, since if it was a problem to such people back then it's also likely to be a problem to them now. Meanwhile people who weren't estranged before might still be now.

[Utrommaniac]

Splinter kinda strikes me as a war veteran who's lost everything and has turned to less than ideal coping mechanisms.


But now that things are getting truly serious with the Foot trying to bring back Shredder, Splinter's likely to pull himself together, tell his history to the turtles for the first time, and truly start training them.

It's all just a very extended origin story that we're experiencing with them. Save for the origin of the origin.

[The Great Saiyaman]

Originally Posted by IndigoErth

The day some other version turns them all into girls... I'm gonna hate it, but will be grabbing the popcorn and watching how many hit their limit of what they're willing to defend and accept being done to these guys.

The rage that will ensue. But I'mma be like, but it's new and the writers like it, it ain't made for us, not for people who like TMNT.

Last year I did some artwork based on that.

Leonarda, Donatella, Rapahelle and Michelangela. The Teenage Mutant Kunoichi Turtles.

The funny thing was that the more I thought about how their character traits worked for their male counterparts worked, the more I realized how well they'd work for their female counterparts.


Leonarda "Leona"
- Is of all the turtles the shortest and when it comes to physical strength the weakest, Splinter made her leader because that would take her mind off of that fact and in doing so helped her self-esteem out quite a bit.
- Although physically the shortest and the weakest, Leona is also of all the turtles the fastest, in both her velocity with her swords and in split second decision making when leading her sisters into battle.
- Leona sees herself as a real life version of Captain Wayjane from the Sci-fi series "Space heroes, deep dish seven" and the fact that she keeps using quotes from that series, often rubs her team mates the wrong way.
- Leona and Raphaelle have a rivalry of Speed against power and of wits against guts. Their sparring matches often descending into catfights, despite that Leona and Ella truly respect the other and form a tight unit when battling the Foot Clan.


Raphaelle
- Is a head strong and total tomboy, she keeps her violent temper from her male counterpart but add the whole "Hell hath no fury of a Woman scorned" to the mix.
- She has short blond hair that she wears in a Mohawk, for some reason it never wanted to grow any longer so she made due with what she had.
- Raphaelle insists on being called "Ella" because she's very peeved about the fact that unlike her sisters, her name doesn't end with an A and has given Master Splinter a hard time because of that. This is because she DOES know she's a girl and wants to reinforce her bond with her sisters. Another point in which she expresses her femininity is the fact that she keeps the tails of her bandana extra long to compensate for her short hair.


Donatella, "Donna"
- Retains the technical genius of her male counterpart but adds the skill of multitasking to that. She can read and solve complex equations while repairing the Shellraiser.
- Donna is of all four sisters the most lady-like and hopelessly romantic, still waiting for her redheaded knight in shining armor to take her away.
- Donna is the tallest and the most slender of all four turtle sisters but don't let the fact that her arms and legs aren't as muscular as the others fool you, she's 100% power.
- Donna has a keen sense of fair play and of rectifying mistakes if possible. Here she is in her lab trying to find a cure for Mutagen Man, turn him back into The Pulverizer.


Michelangela
- "Angie" so that the other turtles can shout her name in the same way they shout "MIKEY!" when the latter is fooling about.
- Because Mikey has freckles, I envisioned Angie to be a Redhead and that her hair is naturally curly. That's solely on the fact that it makes her look not that bright, which leads to enemies underestimating her.
- I figured Angie to be a stocky, chubby girl, not really obese but bigger than a teenage hard body girl. Coming largely from Mikey's love for Pizza which is undiminished with Angie, in fact, it might be worse. She's also the bustiest of all four girl turtles.
- Angie is the kind of girl who just hugs everybody, regardless of who they are, she's enthusiastic, lively and bubbly.

[Konchadunga]

Clearly you’ve worked hard on that, but I really don’t see why being female mandates a turtle to have more human traits than a male one does. Shaping the front of the shell like clothing with breasts beneath is far and away the biggest case of “Why would you do this, other than to make a turtle sexy?”, but the hair also seems redundant so long as all male turtles are bald. I personally think you could add a female turtle whose only noticeably feminine trait is her voice.

[snake]

I’m fine with shell tits, but why the hair?

[Utrommaniac]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Clearly you’ve worked hard on that, but I really don’t see why being female mandates a turtle to have more human traits than a male one does. Shaping the front of the shell like clothing with breasts beneath is far and away the biggest case of “Why would you do this, other than to make a turtle sexy?”, but the hair also seems redundant so long as all male turtles are bald. I personally think you could add a female turtle whose only noticeably feminine trait is her voice.

I have extremely strong feelings about this.

It's especially a problem if the 'sexiness' is being placed upon teenage girls. Late middle school at the youngest and Sophomore high school at the oldest. They don't need shell boobs and they don't need hair to be characterized as female turtles.
They're not mammals.
They were never mammals.
They don't need any mammalian traits. Especially if some of those traits are going to be blocked off by reptile traits. Breasts exist for biological purpose, and even if they're never going to serve that purpose, they still wouldn't be covered over.
Plus there's the question of what's going on under there. Is it muscle? Female muscle doesn't work like that, and the plastron would probably be a lot weaker having to go over a curve like that. Especially if it had to grow that way. It sure as hell can't be fat and glands like the real thing because that would REALLY not work to make that shape. Because that's not how boobs work; I should know.


Maybe smaller, a little more slender, and female voices, but that's about it. Nor do they need feminized names to be told "it's the turtles, but girls!"
Let them have their own names.

On the Discord chat, we did make light of a "girl turtles" story just being Michelangelo making fan fiction of his own life ala Ice King from Adventure Time, with Fiona and Cake. And going the direction of Mona Lisa (Raph) and Venus (Leo) just being the "girl versions" from another universe. Accompanied by Pearl (Mike - name taken from Girl with the Pearl Earring) and Ophelia (Don)


Anyway if the artists of IDW can depict a female Utrom, a female snake, a female hawk, and a female scorpion without recognizable female traits, the same can be done with the turtles. Sure, Ma'riell had creases in her eyes that looked like winged eyeliner in shadow, but that's a fair exception for feminine traits.
Zodi also has a very feminine face, but that's the one exception for her.
Krisa's literally just a snake with arms wearing a vest.
I thought Koya was a guy until I read her pronouns.

The only female mutants in IDW that have human female characteristics are...the mammals. Sally more than most, probably because she's doing it deliberately.

There are other ways besides "boobs and hair" to separate female and male characters. It can be height and muscle distribution. Voice pitch. Color tone. Skin texture. Eye shape. Behavior and sense of fashion/organization/decoration. Leo and Raphael, as much as I dislike them butting heads, would be butting heads so very differently. Fights between teenage girls are the stuff of nightmares (or at least they were at my high school. Fights between boys could be broken up easily and quickly forgiven. School staff were injured trying to break up fights between girls and grudges were held.)

If you need to make them sexy in order for them to be identified as female, even when they're still practically children, don't. They're kids and they're reptiles.

Splinter's the only one that would need those female characteristics. Because a female Splinter would already be a mammal, and probably have started off as a human.


To conclude, here's my depiction of the worst possible thing that could have happened in Ma'riell's design and why non-mammals shouldn't have mammal traits (even if I think Utroms share parenting behaviors with mammals)

[Konchadunga]

Well, technically these mutants are often formed from the splicing of two species; human usually being one of them, so they can in those cases retain some mammal traits. But a shell encasing mammaries and taking on their shape is simply too dumb; that's disregarding how both of said body parts are supposed to work.

As for hair, I may have been a bit too hard on it. If one of the donor species is a human, a mutant turtle can have hair. I'm also now recalling that Kappas, which the Turtles have commonly been mistaken for, are often depicted with hair. But the point stands that sex shouldn't make the difference there; if one mutant has hair and another doesn't, that should instead be because mutation is random.

[The Great Saiyaman]

Originally Posted by Konchadunga

Well, technically these mutants are often formed from the splicing of two species; human usually being one of them, so they can in those cases retain some mammal traits. But a shell encasing mammaries and taking on their shape is simply too dumb; that's disregarding how both of said body parts are supposed to work.

As for hair, I may have been a bit too hard on it. If one of the donor species is a human, a mutant turtle can have hair. I'm also now recalling that Kappas, which the Turtles have commonly been mistaken for, are often depicted with hair. But the point stands that sex shouldn't make the difference there; if one mutant has hair and another doesn't, that should instead be because mutation is random.

Around the time when I drew these I saw the Mutant apocalypse special in which as you all will remember we saw THIS.


And THIS

So I figured, well if they have the ability to grow hair, why not depict them with hair?

Mutagen induced mutations aren't 50/50, they're more 20% of the original DNA and 80% of the Invasive DNA. So with the turtles having gotten their human DNA either from Splinter or from the pet store clerk and whoever handled them prior accounts for all of them being different from each other looks wise and behavior-wise.

So given that they are 80% human, what parts of theirs are still reptilian and what is human?
- One reptile trait they still have from having been born as normal Terrapin turtles is the fact that they are Amphibian, outstanding swimmers and being able to hold their breath for a long time.
- They can still do THIS.


- They have human body proportions, their limbs are longer than they would be on a normal turtle.
- Related to that, their skeletons are human which allows them to walk upright.
- Their Carapace and Plastron shells are very bendable, probably being more similar to rubber rather than hardened shell as this GIF of Donatello showcases.

-They don't have scaly skin, whereas other mutated reptiles such as Leatherhad, Slash and Karai do.
AND...


"It tastes like leather and sweat!"
- There is no way of knowing if Eastman and Laird did it on purpose but even in the original 1984 comic book series they depicted the Turtles with warm breath and sweating which are mammalian traits.
- Add in the fact that the IDW comics depicted Dr Honeycutt saving a critically injured Donatello by operating on him in an industrial freezer to slow down his metabolism. That would be something which would KILL a real turtle.
Which leads to the following conclusion, the Turtles are warm blooded.

As for depicting them with breasts, Venus has breasts and whenever she transforms, Snake Karai retains her breasts