Who is Ch'rell if he's not the Shredder?

*neatoman* · 02-18-2021, 05:03 PM

In the 4Kids show, Ch'rell being the Shredder is very clearly his thing. He founded the Foot, he heads a criminal empire in New York, he is the murderer of Hamato Yoshi, he is the one to fight the Turtles on that roof, he is the one to ambush the antique shop and he is the final opponent when they return to New York. He ticks the boxes of what Mirage Shredder did (or as well as an alien could) and is so deeply tied to the identity it's kind of hard to imagine him as a seperate character, even though the show eventually revealed there had been other Shredders.

So who is IDW Ch'rell then if he isn't the Shredder? Is he completely different with a completely different backstory, or does he have a similar backstory but on some different planet? It's still possible that he could have crashed on some other planet and been forced to build something similar to the Foot there. Of course, that could have a different outcome too.

So what do you think? What kind of character is he if he can't be the Shredder?

*Andrew NDB* · 02-18-2021, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman

In the 4Kids show, Ch'rell being the Shredder is very clearly his thing. He founded the Foot, he heads a criminal empire in New York, he is the murderer of Hamato Yoshi, he is the one to fight the Turtles on that roof, he is the one to ambush the antique shop and he is the final opponent when they return to New York. He ticks the boxes of what Mirage Shredder did (or as well as an alien could) and is so deeply tied to the identity it's kind of hard to imagine him as a seperate character, even though the show eventually revealed there had been other Shredders.

So who is IDW Ch'rell then if he isn't the Shredder? Is he completely different with a completely different backstory, or does he have a similar backstory but on some different planet? It's still possible that he could have crashed on some other planet and been forced to build something similar to the Foot there. Of course, that could have a different outcome too.

So what do you think? What kind of character is he if he can't be the Shredder?

Spoiler:

*CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy* · 02-18-2021, 05:17 PM

It's a damn good question.

He's too much a combination of Shredder and Krang. Until Leatherhead's Very Bad Case of Indigestion was revealed, I would have assumed Ch'rell would just end up as Krang 2.0, AKA Now Even (Kr)Angrier.

Now, though? Kinda seems like a moot fucking point. I suppose we'll see sometime in 2023, when IDW decides to leave Mutant Town the fuck behind and check in with Burnow Island again.

*Leo656* · 02-18-2021, 05:28 PM

Yeah, for all those reasons it kinda always felt to me like Ch'rell should probably stay in his own TMNT Universe and not be adapted into any others.

I didn't hate Utrom Shredder the way some folks did, but even in being able to accept it I still wouldn't want it to be a thing outside of the 4Kids series. It works fine for THAT series, but I'd prefer that it stay in That Series.

Not everything from one version absolutely HAS to cross over into the other TMNT Universes, after all. Sometimes it works, sometimes it really doesn't.

*neatoman* · 02-18-2021, 05:50 PM

Just to clarify, I'm not against Ch'rell being divorced from the defining traits of the Shredder as long as he's still a decent character, I'm just curious who that character would be as he would have to differ in some signifigant ways.

*Andrew NDB* · 02-18-2021, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman

Just to clarify, I'm not against Ch'rell being divorced from the defining traits of the Shredder as long as he's still a decent character,

He kind of doesn't have any character aside from that. He's just a warlord who is evil for evil's sake, in 4Kids. Add a Shredder/Oroku Saki skin to it (that largely doesn't make a lot of sense) and there you go.

Any actual character you give Ch'rell is the first time it has been done, really.

*neatoman* · 02-18-2021, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew NDB

He kind of doesn't have any character aside from that. He's just a warlord who is evil for evil's sake, in 4Kids. Add a Shredder/Oroku Saki skin to it (that largely doesn't make a lot of sense) and there you go.

Any actual character you give Ch'rell is the first time it has been done, really.

Further clarification: As long as someone bothers write a decent character, even if that means filling in gaps.

*Galactus* · 02-18-2021, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman

Just to clarify, I'm not against Ch'rell being divorced from the defining traits of the Shredder as long as he's still a decent character, I'm just curious who that character would be as he would have to differ in some signifigant ways.

I always thought there was an interesting story to tell about why he assumes other people identities. That's a pretty unique MO for galactic conqueror type villain.

*Andrew NDB* · 02-18-2021, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neatoman

Further clarification: As long as someone bothers write a decent character, even if that means filling in gaps.

In other words, "As it stands, 0."

~~ChosenOne~~ · 02-18-2021, 07:17 PM

I'm surprised at how little faith you all have on Waltz et al after so long. They wouldn't have introduced the character if they didn't have a solid plan for him, especially knowing that Krang was slated to return. Ever since Battle Lines, I've been speculating that IDW Ch'rell could be the other half of the equation (opposing Krang) of an Utrom civil war on Earth. While he is a formidable leader and warrior, he seems far more rational than Krang to the point of ceasing hostilities against Slash when he realized something was amiss in that whole thing, and then actually standing there and mourning with the others. Fat chance Krang would've done either of those things. So no, I think Ch'rell is a whole different beast. But I could be wrong, so we'll have to wait and see.

*neatoman* · 02-18-2021, 07:24 PM

Oh I don't doubt he'll do a good job, it's just that the character will be quite different and I'm just waiting to see what it's like.

*newfan* · 02-19-2021, 02:27 AM

I've only watched through 2k3 once but I don't remember there being a whole lot of back story other than he was someone and 'bad' before he took up the Shredder ID, so I guess as Andrew said, kind of open for someone to fill that in.

slashpieturtlemix · 02-19-2021, 08:14 AM

This one is sort of a tough call. IDW has been adding some pretty decent personalities and back stories to everyone they introduce and he has so little information. All we know is that he is a fanatic and has committed war crimes.

~~ChosenOne~~ · 02-19-2021, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slashpieturtlemix

This one is sort of a tough call. IDW has been adding some pretty decent personalities and back stories to everyone they introduce and he has so little information. All we know is that he is a fanatic and has committed war crimes.

Correction: we were told he's a fanatic and has committed war crimes, by unreliable sources at best given how they go around hatching plots and keeping secrets behind their own kin's backs. When we did see Ch'rell in action, he proved a stern commander and warrior, but that's a far cry from war criminal.

DragonSoul · 02-19-2021, 10:50 AM

Considering what happened with Leatherhead in Issue 100, I think Ch'rell is more than capable of becoming the new Shredder. The parasitic utrom was a fan theory long ago and it is a welcomed addition to TMNT lore because it adds some shock factor, I guess. Ch'rell seems to be authoritarian just like Kraang but differs in the fact that at times Ch'rell is capable of mercy while at the same time just as capable of committing heinous crimes like Kraang. An example of his greatest mercy can be seen in the 4kids series when he adopted Karai who was just a poor orphan and had no hope for a future. Ch'rell gave her a future and trained her to be a warrior-- a kindness that was never given to her by another human. Ch'rell in the IDW verse would be different of course but I hope they keep his key characteristics in check.

I also think it adds more realism as when their is a divergence in leadership ideology the evil side only succeeds by amassing followers. History tells us that evil rulers are never alone so why should Kraang be the one evil doer among the utroms.

*Utrommaniac* · 02-21-2021, 10:14 PM

I mean, so far, it seems like he's far more level-headed than Krang is at present. He handled the news of what happened to Krang surprisingly well, considering Ma'riell's concerns about how he'd react to learning about his imprisonment. He was also surprisingly restrained when chewing Ma'riell out for everything. 4Kids Ch'rell would have NEVER (nor would he have undying loyalty to someone above him in rank)

But now we all know WHY he reacted better than I thought he would, even if it's a bit of a disappointing reason on my part. Like, at least give him a little bit of time to be his own man before that reveal.

He also hasn't spent centuries in perpetual isolation slowly his grip on his own standards, so he's coming out of stasis unchanged while Krang...didn't learn his lesson from the Triceratons and look where that got him.

I think the point of Ch'rell being in IDW is to explore who he is without being the Shredder. At this point so far, it's Krang's Best Lackey. Because yeah, Krang did a lot of War Crime-ing, but he didn't do it all on his own. He just commanded a lot of it; someone else had to actually lead in acting on it. So then it's just...who he is beyond that. Because now we have details on him that 4Kids just didn't.

The biggest detail of which is...being the warmongering (older???) brother to a pacifist. Which already says a lot.

~~ChosenOne~~ · 02-22-2021, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

I mean, so far, it seems like he's far more level-headed than Krang is at present. He handled the news of what happened to Krang surprisingly well, considering Ma'riell's concerns about how he'd react to learning about his imprisonment. He was also surprisingly restrained when chewing Ma'riell out for everything. 4Kids Ch'rell would have NEVER (nor would he have undying loyalty to someone above him in rank)

I'll say it again: unreliable narrators. Not something unheard of in stormy political climates. That Ma'riell would be worried about bringing Ch'rell out of stasis doesn't mean that fear is entirely founded, at least not for the world at large. Maybe the fact that Ch'rell handed chewing outs left and right the moment he woke up has something to do with it...? Doesn't make him an outright bad guy per se. I just feel there's a lot of contrast being set up between him and Krang, including in Tom Waltz's recent tweet that had them side by side, one in Leatherhead, the other in his battle suit. That has to be for a reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Utrommaniac

But now we all know WHY he reacted better than I thought he would, even if it's a bit of a disappointing reason on my part. Like, at least give him a little bit of time to be his own man before that reveal.

You mean because Krang was coming back? I see it the other way around: the writers knew Krang was comic back and still brought in Ch'rell. Why? Why would they do that? What would be the point? Well, Karai isn't the same as Shredder and actively worked against him in the past, for instance. Who's to say Ch'rell has to be a blindly obedient minion to Krang just because some Utroms who don't even like him said so?

*Utrommaniac* · 02-22-2021, 02:57 PM

I doubt he's blindly obedient, but not because of Ma'riell's input. Especially since, y'know, they're siblings. She's probably the best judge of Ch'rell's character that we have. I think even she may have been surprised by Ch'rell just saying "what do you think you've been doing???"

It looks to between Honeycutt thinking Ch'rell is dangerous enough on his own, but Ma'riell thinks he's dangerous because of his loyalty to Krang.

And so far...we've seen him having the potential to be dangerous on his own, but he's only been an ally because there was no other choice for anyone.

02-18-2021, 05:17 PM	#3
CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy Annalist Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 16,435	It's a damn good question. He's too much a combination of Shredder and Krang. Until Leatherhead's Very Bad Case of Indigestion was revealed, I would have assumed Ch'rell would just end up as Krang 2.0, AKA Now Even (Kr)Angrier. Now, though? Kinda seems like a moot fucking point. I suppose we'll see sometime in 2023, when IDW decides to leave Mutant Town the fuck behind and check in with Burnow Island again. __________________ *ALL THEIR DAYS ARE NUMBERED*

02-18-2021, 05:28 PM	#4
Leo656 The Franchise Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: nWo Country Posts: 27,696	Yeah, for all those reasons it kinda always felt to me like Ch'rell should probably stay in his own TMNT Universe and not be adapted into any others. I didn't hate Utrom Shredder the way some folks did, but even in being able to accept it I still wouldn't want it to be a thing outside of the 4Kids series. It works fine for THAT series, but I'd prefer that it stay in That Series. Not everything from one version absolutely HAS to cross over into the other TMNT Universes, after all. Sometimes it works, sometimes it really doesn't. __________________ "I left some words quite far from here to be a short reminder... I laid them out in stone, in case they need to last forever..." "But hey... I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know." nWo Tech: The Official Thread Poison of the Technodrome Forums https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA https://theroxxshow.blogspot.com/

02-21-2021, 10:14 PM	#16
Utrommaniac Resident overthinker Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: what is going on.......... Posts: 5,318	I mean, so far, it seems like he's far more level-headed than Krang is at present. He handled the news of what happened to Krang surprisingly well, considering Ma'riell's concerns about how he'd react to learning about his imprisonment. He was also surprisingly restrained when chewing Ma'riell out for everything. 4Kids Ch'rell would have NEVER (nor would he have undying loyalty to someone above him in rank) But now we all know WHY he reacted better than I thought he would, even if it's a bit of a disappointing reason on my part. Like, at least give him a little bit of time to be his own man before that reveal. He also hasn't spent centuries in perpetual isolation slowly his grip on his own standards, so he's coming out of stasis unchanged while Krang...didn't learn his lesson from the Triceratons and look where that got him. I think the point of Ch'rell being in IDW is to explore who he is without being the Shredder. At this point so far, it's Krang's Best Lackey. Because yeah, Krang did a lot of War Crime-ing, but he didn't do it all on his own. He just commanded a lot of it; someone else had to actually lead in acting on it. So then it's just...who he is beyond that. Because now we have details on him that 4Kids just didn't. The biggest detail of which is...being the warmongering (older???) brother to a pacifist. Which already says a lot. __________________ DeviantART

02-22-2021, 02:57 PM	#18
Utrommaniac Resident overthinker Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: what is going on.......... Posts: 5,318	I doubt he's blindly obedient, but not because of Ma'riell's input. Especially since, y'know, they're siblings. She's probably the best judge of Ch'rell's character that we have. I think even she may have been surprised by Ch'rell just saying "what do you think you've been doing???" It looks to between Honeycutt thinking Ch'rell is dangerous enough on his own, but Ma'riell thinks he's dangerous because of his loyalty to Krang. And so far...we've seen him having the potential to be dangerous on his own, but he's only been an ally because there was no other choice for anyone. __________________ DeviantART

02-18-2021, 07:17 PM	#10
~~ChosenOne~~ Banned Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 3,951	I'm surprised at how little faith you all have on Waltz et al after so long. They wouldn't have introduced the character if they didn't have a solid plan for him, especially knowing that Krang was slated to return. Ever since Battle Lines, I've been speculating that IDW Ch'rell could be the other half of the equation (opposing Krang) of an Utrom civil war on Earth. While he is a formidable leader and warrior, he seems far more rational than Krang to the point of ceasing hostilities against Slash when he realized something was amiss in that whole thing, and then actually standing there and mourning with the others. Fat chance Krang would've done either of those things. So no, I think Ch'rell is a whole different beast. But I could be wrong, so we'll have to wait and see.

02-19-2021, 02:27 AM	#12
newfan Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: UK Posts: 2,393	I've only watched through 2k3 once but I don't remember there being a whole lot of back story other than he was someone and 'bad' before he took up the Shredder ID, so I guess as Andrew said, kind of open for someone to fill that in.

02-19-2021, 08:14 AM	#13
slashpieturtlemix Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2013 Location: Metairie, LA Posts: 1,259	This one is sort of a tough call. IDW has been adding some pretty decent personalities and back stories to everyone they introduce and he has so little information. All we know is that he is a fanatic and has committed war crimes.

02-19-2021, 10:50 AM	#15
DragonSoul Random Punk Join Date: Dec 2020 Location: Canada Posts: 36	Considering what happened with Leatherhead in Issue 100, I think Ch'rell is more than capable of becoming the new Shredder. The parasitic utrom was a fan theory long ago and it is a welcomed addition to TMNT lore because it adds some shock factor, I guess. Ch'rell seems to be authoritarian just like Kraang but differs in the fact that at times Ch'rell is capable of mercy while at the same time just as capable of committing heinous crimes like Kraang. An example of his greatest mercy can be seen in the 4kids series when he adopted Karai who was just a poor orphan and had no hope for a future. Ch'rell gave her a future and trained her to be a warrior-- a kindness that was never given to her by another human. Ch'rell in the IDW verse would be different of course but I hope they keep his key characteristics in check. I also think it adds more realism as when their is a divergence in leadership ideology the evil side only succeeds by amassing followers. History tells us that evil rulers are never alone so why should Kraang be the one evil doer among the utroms.