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Old 03-04-2007, 07:11 PM   #1
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
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Could someone enlighten me....

What exactly did Dave Sims say/do to make PL wan't to erase the Cerebus crossover from TMNT cannon?
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:23 PM   #2
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Dave Sims has been known to have a very disagreeable attitude, but I don't know if Lair'd desire to remake Vol. 1 #8 has to do with anything personal.

#8 was a very silly issue yet a very important one at that. It's possible Laird wants to erase the goofiness of the story.

Also, I question whether there's bad blood between Laird and Sim. I mean, "Cerebus" made a brief cameo in the "Time Travails" episode of 2k3 which adapted #8. I doubt Laird would have allowed that "cameo" if he hated Sim's guts.
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:25 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSpengler View Post
Dave Sims has been known to have a very disagreeable attitude, but I don't know if Lair'd desire to remake Vol. 1 #8 has to do with anything personal.

#8 was a very silly issue yet a very important one at that. It's possible Laird wants to erase the goofiness of the story.

Also, I question whether there's bad blood between Laird and Sim. I mean, "Cerebus" made a brief cameo in the "Time Travails" episode of 2k3 which adapted #8. I doubt Laird would have allowed that "cameo" if he hated Sim's guts.
Oh, I thought maybe Sims may have said something Laird didn't agree with.
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:42 PM   #4
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Dave Sim (no 's' on the end) has some strict rules that he has imposed on himself when it comes to comic books, and Cerebus in general. One of these, as I understand it, involves not signing contracts. Publishing a cross-over comic without signing a piece of paper concerning it is apparently a rare and not so easy thing to do. But it ended up working out for the original publishing of #8 and the books that reprinted that issue.

I believe Peter's decision in removing Cerebus from things has to do with this and assuming that it would be either impossible or a pain in the butt to legally be able to reprint that issue. However, if you read the letters page of Cerebus #300, Dave Sim addresses this issue to Peter and basically gives him freedom to reprint TMNT #8 however he would like to. (I think I might have a scan of this on my computer. I'll check and post it if I find it.)

It would actually be nice if Peter took this to heart and has scrapped plans to redo that issue. I think redoing the tones and letters for all of the books is insult enough, but to completely change an issue? Gimme a break.
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:48 PM   #5
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That's interesting. I was wondering why in all these years, Cerebus has only ever done TWO crossovers (one with the TMNT and one with Spawn).

Now I know.
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Old 03-04-2007, 08:09 PM   #6
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Ok, here are the details as Dave wrote them. (Lemme know if you can actually see this; I don't actually want this in my flickr account, so I set it to private, but I think a direct link should still work.)
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Old 03-04-2007, 09:49 PM   #7
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Ok, here are the details as Dave wrote them. (Lemme know if you can actually see this; I don't actually want this in my flickr account, so I set it to private, but I think a direct link should still work.)
Hey, thanks a ton for scanning and posting that.

Very interesting read, though entirely too complicated. But that's David Sim for you.

It seems not ever Sim-himself is sure why Laird is excising the original #8 and doesn't even seem to be sure whether Laird even likes him (though Sim seems to be cool with Eastman, these days).
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Old 03-05-2007, 06:16 PM   #8
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I found in this in the TMNT #16 letter colums...

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"I have not read Dave's comments. I also have not chnaged my plans. Nothing I do is going to eliminate the original TMNT #8 from exsistence - it's just not going to be a part of the Mirage TMNT continuity from now on, and we won't be reprinting it. I don't believe I owe the fans anthing other than making as sure as I can that the comics I publish are worth the price on the cover - and I'm confidant that they are - otherwise, I wouldn't bother doing them. If someone really wants to see what the original TMNT #8 was all about, I'm sure they can dig one up on the collectable comics market - after all, we printed more than 100,000 copies of it. Not exactly "rare". And frankly, as fun as that story is, I don't see it as a key element in the ongoing story of the TMNT"
Looks like it wasn't out of spite.
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Old 03-05-2007, 06:34 PM   #9
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Looks like it wasn't out of spite.
But his explanation is a bunch of BS. He implies that a reprinting of that book would not be worth the cover price unless Cerebus was removed. Why the hell is that? I can't think of any reason other than spite to remove Cerebus.

It's not that any of us NEED TMNT #8 to be reprinted because OMG it's so hard to find, it's the principle of changing a story because 20 years later you decide you don't like it. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. I don't see Marvel going back and changing early issues of Spider-Man or X-Men or Fantastic Four and I'm sure there's plenty of material worthy of nit-picking and changing in those three series of comics alone, let alone every single other comic title. Or any book ever published. Lots of established authors are embarassed by their early work, but they don't go back and "fix" them, they move on and publish new work that people enjoy.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Roseangelo View Post
But his explanation is a bunch of BS. He implies that a reprinting of that book would not be worth the cover price unless Cerebus was removed. Why the hell is that? I can't think of any reason other than spite to remove Cerebus.

It's not that any of us NEED TMNT #8 to be reprinted because OMG it's so hard to find, it's the principle of changing a story because 20 years later you decide you don't like it. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. I don't see Marvel going back and changing early issues of Spider-Man or X-Men or Fantastic Four and I'm sure there's plenty of material worthy of nit-picking and changing in those three series of comics alone, let alone every single other comic title. Or any book ever published. Lots of established authors are embarassed by their early work, but they don't go back and "fix" them, they move on and publish new work that people enjoy.
But still, he has every right to do it if he wants to. I don't see the point in removing Cerebus, but if he feels so strongly about it, then all power to him.

Remember, just because you have a problem with it, doesn't mean PL can't do it. I have the original issue 8, so I don't see any problem in him wanting to go back a change something, it's not like it's gonna drastically effect continuity, Cerebus didn't really do much for the story anyway.

And I also don't see the problem in him going back and retoning and lettering some of the old back issues. I don't see anyone really complaining when Disney remasters one of they're old movies for modern viewing, so whats the problem here?
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:25 PM   #11
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Ok, here are the details as Dave wrote them. (Lemme know if you can actually see this; I don't actually want this in my flickr account, so I set it to private, but I think a direct link should still work.)
thanks for posting that, very interesting. i've never read cerebus, it's one of those things that i always think i need to read some day, but it's intimidating to start something that huge! i enjoyed tmnt #8 and honestly, i doubt mr laird will ever get around to redoing it, even if that is his intention.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:43 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael View Post
But still, he has every right to do it if he wants to. I don't see the point in removing Cerebus, but if he feels so strongly about it, then all power to him.

Remember, just because you have a problem with it, doesn't mean PL can't do it.
Oh, I'm fully aware of that. But just as he has the right to do it, I have the right to dislike it and voice my dislike.

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And I also don't see the problem in him going back and retoning and lettering some of the old back issues.
I wouldn't have an issue with this if relettering didn't involve rewriting the script, which it does. I see it as rewriting history, and I can't support that.

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I don't see anyone really complaining when Disney remasters one of they're old movies for modern viewing, so whats the problem here?
Actually, there are people who complain about certain things they do change. Restoring a print of a movie to its original vibrance is a great thing to do, as it makes for more enjoyable viewing and preserves a piece of history. But when Disney released Cinderella on DVD recently, they changed the color of her ball gown and there were actually quite a few people upset with that.

And look at how George Lucas changed the original Star Wars trilogy and the outcry that caused. Enhancing the effects was great, but Han not shooting first sends people into fits. And while I can tolerate the changes made more than most avid Star Wars fans, I HATE that in the DVD release he put Hayden Christensen at the end of Return of the Jedi. It totally takes away from the fact that Anakin redeemed himself as old Sebastian Shaw.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:47 PM   #13
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The way I see it is, if the changes do nothing to effect the story or characters, then I see no porblem. And removing Cerebus wouldn't change much, it would still be the same basic story.

But as for changing the script. I thought he was just going to redo the lettering, not change what they say. What is he gonna do, remove the profanity?
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:51 PM   #14
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But as for changing the script. I thought he was just going to redo the lettering, not change what they say. What is he gonna do, remove the profanity?
If you compare the PBBZ #1 reprint with any of the earlier #1 prints, you'll find a significant number of changes to the script.

Actually, gimme some time and I'll take some comparison pictures.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:59 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Roseangelo View Post
If you compare the PBBZ #1 reprint with any of the earlier #1 prints, you'll find a significant number of changes to the script.

Actually, gimme some time and I'll take some comparison pictures.
By all means, go ahead.
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Roseangelo View Post
Dave Sim (no 's' on the end) has some strict rules that he has imposed on himself when it comes to comic books, and Cerebus in general. One of these, as I understand it, involves not signing contracts. Publishing a cross-over comic without signing a piece of paper concerning it is apparently a rare and not so easy thing to do. But it ended up working out for the original publishing of #8 and the books that reprinted that issue.

I believe Peter's decision in removing Cerebus from things has to do with this and assuming that it would be either impossible or a pain in the butt to legally be able to reprint that issue. However, if you read the letters page of Cerebus #300, Dave Sim addresses this issue to Peter and basically gives him freedom to reprint TMNT #8 however he would like to. (I think I might have a scan of this on my computer. I'll check and post it if I find it.)

It would actually be nice if Peter took this to heart and has scrapped plans to redo that issue. I think redoing the tones and letters for all of the books is insult enough, but to completely change an issue? Gimme a break.
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Old 03-06-2007, 03:04 AM   #17
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I just gotta ask you guys, is cleaning up some of the old issues really that bad? Really?
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Old 03-06-2007, 06:26 AM   #18
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If all he planned to do with the comics was give them a cleaner look, I'd have no problem whatsoever with it. But as far as editing the content--- I'm not new to the turtle franchise, but I never read the comics when I was younger. Now I'm old enough to buy them myself and see what I missed. I'd hate to get a completely different comic from the one other fans have gotten back in the day. It's tweaking with people's memories...

That's how I see it.
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Old 03-06-2007, 01:10 PM   #19
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I just gotta ask you guys, is cleaning up some of the old issues really that bad? Really?
dude he's doing allot more than that I'm ticked off because he's acting as half of tmnt's existance doesn't even exist to such a huge fan and lover of things tmnt it really is upseting. It's fine to say it doesn't belong in a mirage world but to go off and diss things and speak like you don't even give things credit for being some what good at all is mind blowing.
I'm sorry but the Image storys and damn even half the archies are better than the crap we got vol.4 of mirage honestly I'd actully take images wild take on tmnt anyday minus all the dissfigurations mind you.
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Old 03-06-2007, 01:59 PM   #20
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It's fine to say it doesn't belong in a mirage world but to go off and diss things and speak like you don't even give things credit for being some what good at all is mind blowing.
What was dissed?
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