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Old 10-07-2012, 11:27 AM   #1
CyberCubed
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Splinter's human origin is now used in more incarnations than his rat origin

Anyone notice this?

Splinter being Hamato Yoshi:

- Original cartoon
- Archie TMNT comics
- Nick TMNT cartoon
- IDW comics

Splinter being the pet rat of Yoshi:

Mirage comics
Movie universe
4kids cartoon


The incarnations where he's Hamato Yoshi now outnumber his original Mirage origin. How do you feel?
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:34 AM   #2
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As a fan of any incarnation where Hamato Yoshi becomes Splinter I find this very interesting.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:38 AM   #3
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i like both versions but i have to feel that rat first splinter is way more unbelievable. you could say that is part of the charm, and i would not disagree, but a part of me feels like a rat learning martial arts from its cage BEFORE even
being mutated seems over the top.

it's also underwhelming when shredder finds out who splinter really is! "it's... you! the pet rat of my mortal enemy! NOW YOU PAY!" -- i mean come on it just does not have the same effect!

human first splinter has potential for much greater drama.

my favorite origin is still the OT origin because splinter is a former ninja now homeless in NYC who rasies the TMNT from *baby turtles* -- see, this is the part that bothers me more than splinter's origin, the fact that in some versions of TMNT the turtles mutate straight into teenagers (even in the OT they do this!) i have problems with this for a lot of reasons :/

i guess my favorite origin would be a combination of both OT and the first movie. I think splinter should be human first, but the turtles should mutate into babies... or at least children -- and then splinter has plenty of years to train them.

if they mutate straight into 15yos how does that give splinter and the 4 turtles time to bond and train? :/ (yes, I know the IDW series gets around this... though that is another topic!)

Last edited by Zulithe; 10-07-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:46 AM   #4
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I prefer the rat origin myself. It just seems to work better for me.

Though I would suggest that the IDW version is a mixture of both. Because he was human but reincarnated and mutated from rat form.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:52 AM   #5
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I like both origins, though I like Splinter's OT origin a bit more.
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:53 AM   #6
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yes the IDW origin merges a lot of the great ideas. it is probably the best origin if you like the idea of reincarnation. personally I find it too great a departure from the established canon.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
The incarnations where he's Hamato Yoshi now outnumber his original Mirage origin.
Technically, that's not true.

Splinter is a mutated rat in:
- Mirage comics;
- Image comics;
- The first three movies;
- The Next Mutation series;
- 4kids series;
- Dreamwave comics;
- TMNT movie;
- (arguably) IDW comics.
Even if you respectively count Mirage/Image, the four movies, and 4kids/Dreamwave as the same continuities (ignoring some inconsistencies), they still aren't outnumbered.

Quote:
How do you feel?
I do agree that a human mutated into a rat makes more sense than a mutated rat as a ninja master. But I still prefer the Splinter as a rat approach, for various reasons.
Firstly, I think it makes the family bond more interesting and realistic. Splinter and the Turtles are already different species, but at least they are all mutated animals and so understand each other better than the humans from the outside world.
Also, an animal who raises and teaches the human ways to other animals is more original and less condescending (from an animal point of view).

Moreover, I don't think Splinter is very realistic as a human. I think that a human mutated into an animal should want to re-establish connections with his fellow humans. Instead, the continuities where Splinter is a human are the same ones where Splinter is less active and more secluded. The Turtles seem to be the only ones with the need to make human friends and to blend into the human world.

Quote:
my favorite origin is still the OT origin because splinter is a former ninja now homeless in NYC who rasies the TMNT from *baby turtles* -- see, this is the part that bothers me more than splinter's origin, the fact that in some versions of TMNT the turtles mutate straight into teenagers! i have problems with this for a lot of reasons :/
Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that in the OT the Turtles mutate directly into teenagers.
I even remember Raphael telling April that they spent half their lives in a glass ball in the first episode.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:11 PM   #8
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I even remember Raphael telling April that they spent half their lives in a glass ball in the first episode.
My wording was obtuse above. But i did reference that fact.

still he *had* them from babies, or nearly so. they couldn't have been that old when they left the pet shop. they lived with splinter for some time before the mutation.

I still prefer the TMNT live-action turtles origin The 4kids show was also highly influenced by that version of the origin
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:44 PM   #9
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Agreeing with Loudo, you're forgetting Next Mutation, and it's kind of loaded to put IDW squarely in either category.

Yes, he's Hamato Yoshi (if you believe his reincarnation story), but it avoids most of the pitfalls of other Yoshi-is-Splinter origins by also making him a normal, mutated rat who only starts to remember its former life when experimented upon. What are those pitfalls? Mostly the idea that a human turned into a rat-man and forced into the sewers would be at all okay with those developments.

Overall, I don't really care which origin is used, as long as it's used well. Historically, I feel the rat origin has been more successful. You have to get over the initial silliness of Splinter being a hyper-intelligent rodent, but that's a fair trade for the constant silliness of a once-human Splinter calmly accepting his lot in life.

The problem with the human origin is that it makes Splinter's mutation a burden, rather than the blessing it is in the rat origin. If you're not prepared to have your story deal heavily with the consequences of that, it's not a road you should go down in the first place.

(Nick seems to be handling it a little better though. Making Yoshi a man who had recently lost his wife and daughter, and who regrets his previous actions, makes his zen-like approach to his new life a lot more believable.)
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:52 PM   #10
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Then we might as well count OT/Archie as the same continuities as well, reducing the human origin to three. Even if IDW Splinter is clearly a human origin, it would still be tied at three with regards to blending the other continuities that Loudo pointed out, which would make it a draw.

Since I experienced the OT Splinter first, I'm always partial to that origin, and now that both Nick and IDW both pretty much agree on a human mutation, it feels "in" at the moment to feel the average person thinks that Splinter was originally a human. Let's not forget the first NES game where Splinter turns human when you defeat Shredder.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:54 PM   #11
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I've said this enough times in other topics, but I much more strongly prefer Splinter being a rat from the get-go, although I applaud the efforts of IDW for merging the two origins, even if I don't care for the reincarnation deal itself. I never would have seen that coming, had I not known about it before reading it.

For all the"unrealistic" flak the rat origin gets, I think that the human origin is much more puzzling, especially since I feel the Mirage properties of the ooze make a heck of a lot more sense. As for the hyper-intelligent rat part... c'mon, this is comic book logic. Extraordinarily intelligent animals happen.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:10 PM   #12
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i think having smart animals from the get-go makes their mutation less special, so no, I will never like the idea of splinter practicing his master's moves from his cage. i respect that others like it, and since it is the mirage origin it has very deep roots in the series and i can't dismiss it. if every version of the origin used that depiction, i would be perfectly fine with it, but since we have all these divergences in the story, i prefer the human version.
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Old 10-07-2012, 01:42 PM   #13
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I prefer Splinter starting out as a human, so this is fiiiine with me.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:35 PM   #14
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Wink

First of all, Image is part of Mirage continuity so it doesn't count as a new version of Splinter.

Second of all, Dreamwave never went on long enough to be its own universe. It had 4 episode adaptions and two filler stories that could easily fit into the 4kids universe in Season 1.

Third of all, Movie 4 and Next Mutation were loose continuations of the Movie universe so they are not new Splinters either.

So I don't know why people need to make this more complicated than it has to be.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:56 PM   #15
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I'm fine with either, but I think I like him being a human first more, as it just seems a little less goofy (remember the awkward rat doing katas bit in the first movie? Yeah...) and is a little more believable, or something.
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Old 10-07-2012, 03:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zulithe View Post
i like both versions but i have to feel that rat first splinter is way more unbelievable. you could say that is part of the charm, and i would not disagree, but a part of me feels like a rat learning martial arts from its cage BEFORE even
being mutated seems over the top.
Not to mention a rat's lifespan is about 2-3 years, not nearly long enough to master ninjitsu.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:10 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
First of all, Image is part of Mirage continuity so it doesn't count as a new version of Splinter.

Second of all, Dreamwave never went on long enough to be its own universe. It had 4 episode adaptions and two filler stories that could easily fit into the 4kids universe in Season 1.

Third of all, Movie 4 and Next Mutation were loose continuations of the Movie universe so they are not new Splinters either.

So I don't know why people need to make this more complicated than it has to be.
Not to be pedantic, but if you're going to count TMNT Adventures and the 1987 cartoon as two different continuities, you can't lump Next Mutation, the first three movies, and arguably TMNT (2007) together willy-nilly.

They all share common background elements, but none of their separate creative teams have ever confirmed they branch off from one another, as opposed to TMNTA, which expressly began as a 1:1 adaptation of the show. Next Mutation in particular contradicts the movies more than Adventures ever does its Fred-Wolf origins.

So, yeah. I'm being totally pedantic.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:16 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Not to be pedantic, but if you're going to count TMNT Adventures and the 1987 cartoon as two different continuities, you can't lump Next Mutation, the first three movies, and arguably TMNT (2007) together willy-nilly.

They all share common background elements, but none of their separate creative teams have ever confirmed they branch off from one another, as opposed to TMNTA, which expressly began as a 1:1 adaptation of the show. Next Mutation in particular contradicts the **** out of the movies in several ways, much more so than Adventures ever does its Fred-Wolf origins.

So, yeah. I'm being totally pedantic.
The difference is even thought the Archie universe shared the Season 1 storyline, it then became its own thing with different origins for chara├žers who appeared in both like Leatherhead, Mondo Gecko, etc. They also retconned the Turtles as having a childhood and more of Yoshi's background that the show didn't do.

Next Mutation and Movie 4 started out as if we already knew the characters, no origin was given. I am not saying they take place with each other, I view Next Mutation as one alternate timeline that happened after Movie 3 while the 2007 movie is another split in the timeline.

Jester brought up the Archie series could be a split timeline with the show when Armaggon used his timeslip generator to go back in time and alter the events of Season 2. It's fascinating to think about.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by CyberCubed View Post
The difference is even thought the Archie universe shared the Season 1 storyline, it then became its own thing with different origins for chara├žers who appeared in both like Leatherhead, Mondo Gecko, etc. They also retconned the Turtles as having a childhood and more of Yoshi's background that the show didn't do.
Just as Next Mutation, if it even shares a background with the movies, must have deviated before even the events of the first movie could have taken place.

Shredder's alive, there's no April, no Casey, no events from the movies are referenced, etc.

It's as different, if not more so, than Adventures is from the Fred-Wolf show.

And we know next to nothing about the 2007 movie, except that its creative team have said they had in mind that it might or might not continue from the previous films.

It's exactly the same relationship Adventures has to Fred-Wolf; a shared origin, then quickly branching off from there. Only these entries are even less explicit about that shared origin.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:29 PM   #20
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But we never got an origin for Splinter in Next Mutation. We just assume its the rat origin because of the movie background influence. As for the lack of April and Casey there were always rumors they were going to appear if the show got a second season. I always assumed they already knew April/Casey in the series.

Besides Next Mutation is a poor series anyway, we don't need to make sense of what was essentially a trainwreck.
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