The Splinter/Shredder Connection (some plothole clean-up for part two)

FakeBritishAccent · 08-12-2014, 06:43 AM

While I wasn't particularly bothered by the lack of connection between Splinter and Shredder at first, the more I thought of it, the more it bugged me. However, I felt like the movie left enough leeway so the next flick could get it right.

There are four points that can be expanded upon in the sequel, and if the writers can hone in on these four points, it will make a lot of us happy.

1. In the flashback scene, Splinter mentions that he has no recollection of life before the lab. It would be easy for the sequel to suggest that Splinter's cognitive abilities were superpowered by the mutagen. As he grew larger and smarter, memories of his life before the lab becames startingly vivid and after him and the turtles were full-grown, Splinter remembers that his original owner was a ninjitsu master named Hamato Yoshii...a man who was killed by Oroku Saki in Japan.

2. After murdering Yoshii, Oroku Saki takes the rat and gifts him to Eric Sachs, his adopted son. A prepubescent (but still genius) Sachs submits small animals to experiments ranging from groundbreaking to just flat-out sadistic, but he spares his newest pet rat. The Rat is witness to not only Sachs' cruelty, but Oroku Saki and the Foot Clan who're terrorizing Japan, thus instilling in him a great fear and disgust of both Sachs and Shredder in the present day. This would explain Splinter's extremely convenient knowledge of Shredder and Sach's relationship in the first movie, and give him the drive to one day defeat Shredder and the Foot Clan, which he would do by...

3. Training his sons in the ways of the ninja. Splinter's skills came from not only remembering the years he spent as Hamato Yoshi's pet rat, but also from watching Shredder and the Foot honing their skills. He actually LIED to his sons about the root of his knowledge because he remembers the carnage and death that the Foot Clan wreaked in Japan and was ashamed of being witness to it. He made up a story about finding some book so he wouldn't have to admit his little connection to the Foot. A connection that...

4. Shredder has never forgotten. Upon Shredder's encounter with the mutated Splinter, he hisses "Rat" in such a derogatory manner that one can assume Shredder never forgot that Splinter was his pet. In the sequel, Shredder (Super Shredder?) can toss off a line like "When Karai told me that her men were defeated by monsters who were masters of the Foot Clan's fighting style, I didn't believe it...until I saw it with my own eyes" or something. He can go on and monologue that explains how Shredder decided to experiment on Sach's pet rat as a final eff you to Hamato Yoshii's memory...but never thought it would come back to bite him in the ass.

So there you go. I know it may seem like a cheat utilizing false memories and lies to forge the connection, but if handle correctly, the writers of the second movie can fake like all those missed beats in the first movie were intentional, maybe as a way to seed the sequel.

Or maybe the third movie? I kinda don't want to see Shredder again until it's the FINAL showdown.

sethmartin · 08-12-2014, 09:08 AM

As much as I wished the origin included Yoshi and Saki, it's pretty clear that they just don't want to include it for some reason. It's not even clear that the Shredder is even Oroku Saki. Yes, he's Japanese but they never address him as Oroku Saki in the movie. When he meets Splinter, he doesn't act like he really knows him from anything other than being a rat at the lab. Would have been cool if after Splinter told his version of the story he learns more about it throughout the film. But no, let's just have Splinter get hurt so we have a convenient excuse for not having him be a major part of the story.

If Sacks had been the Shredder, and Splinter had been the pet of April's father, it actually would have made sense and would have been closer to the origin even though it was a white washed version. But no, they did reshoots and shoehorned in an Asian shredder just be caused people complained.

*Panda_Kahn_fan* · 08-12-2014, 12:25 PM

Ehhhh, I'm actually still pushing for Splinter to be a reincarnation of Hamato Yoshi, in some way or another, and for Saki to have homehow killed yoshi in his past life. With Nick and IDW, we seem to have left the 'pet rat of Yoshi' thing pretty much in the past anyway.

*victory_angel* · 08-12-2014, 02:43 PM

The way I interpreted the situation is that Splinter and the Shredder had encountered before or at least recognized each other in an adversarial kind of way. Maybe it's a cross of the IDW and the Nick series where Hamato Yoshi and Shredder were friends but then Shredder learns that he is from a clan that was destroyed by the Hamato Clan. He kills Tang Shen and sets the Hamato Families compound on fire, and is severely burnt in the fire as he takes the only surviving member of the Hamato clan a little girl who he names Karai.

Hamato Yoshi is morally wounded and with his last breath he prays that he will be able to get revenge. Thus his soul is reborn as Splinter the rat. So when he meets Shredder again Shredder is able to sense the spirit of his old enemy reborn in Splinter.

This could actually be a plausible explanation as to how he was able to teach himself ninjitsu and then teach it to his sons using a book. He just merely saw the book and as he taught himself the memories of his past life began to make each move feel familiar.

Then again, maybe the Turtles are also the reborn souls of Hamato Yoshi's children, but unlike Splinter they haven't given to much thought as to how they were able to learn Ninjitsu so easily.

FakeBritishAccent · 08-13-2014, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victory_angel

The way I interpreted the situation is that Splinter and the Shredder had encountered before or at least recognized each other in an adversarial kind of way. Maybe it's a cross of the IDW and the Nick series where Hamato Yoshi and Shredder were friends but then Shredder learns that he is from a clan that was destroyed by the Hamato Clan. He kills Tang Shen and sets the Hamato Families compound on fire, and is severely burnt in the fire as he takes the only surviving member of the Hamato clan a little girl who he names Karai.

Hamato Yoshi is morally wounded and with his last breath he prays that he will be able to get revenge. Thus his soul is reborn as Splinter the rat. So when he meets Shredder again Shredder is able to sense the spirit of his old enemy reborn in Splinter.

This could actually be a plausible explanation as to how he was able to teach himself ninjitsu and then teach it to his sons using a book. He just merely saw the book and as he taught himself the memories of his past life began to make each move feel familiar.

Then again, maybe the Turtles are also the reborn souls of Hamato Yoshi's children, but unlike Splinter they haven't given to much thought as to how they were able to learn Ninjitsu so easily.

I LOVE the Nick origin (it's probably my favorite of them all) and reincarnation is the a good way they could do that origin justice. I guess the question is how much do we want Hamato Yoshii to be Splinter?

Here's another angle we can play around with...and it would give Sachs (who is still alive) sone action in the new movie: the movie starts with Splinter suffering from terrible nightmares, POV memories of his home being ransacked by a group of classic Foot Soldiers, his wife screaming at his side. A shadowy bald figure emerges, a battle ensues in which the bald figure gets a lantern or something smashed across his face by the wife and she is killed. Splinter wakes up and tells the boys who go to Sachs for answers. Using their ninja skills of stealth and infiltration (making us very happy) they break into Sachs' cell who tells them the truth: Splinter is Hamato Yoshii, who was kidnapped after his wife was killed and then mutated into a rat, the failed results of Sachs first experiments with the poison/mutagen antidote.

You know what? Just for fun, I'm going to write a script for part II and float it around here. The movie has my head buzzing and I just gotta get something down on paper.

*Panda_Kahn_fan* · 08-13-2014, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FakeBritishAccent

I LOVE the Nick origin (it's probably my favorite of them all) and reincarnation is the a good way they could do that origin justice. I guess the question is how much do we want Hamato Yoshii to be Splinter?

Here's another angle we can play around with...and it would give Sachs (who is still alive) sone action in the new movie: the movie starts with Splinter suffering from terrible nightmares, POV memories of his home being ransacked by a group of classic Foot Soldiers, his wife screaming at his side. A shadowy bald figure emerges, a battle ensues in which the bald figure gets a lantern or something smashed across his face by the wife and she is killed. Splinter wakes up and tells the boys who go to Sachs for answers. Using their ninja skills of stealth and infiltration (making us very happy) they break into Sachs' cell who tells them the truth: Splinter is Hamato Yoshii, who was kidnapped after his wife was killed and then mutated into a rat, the failed results of Sachs first experiments with the poison/mutagen antidote.

You know what? Just for fun, I'm going to write a script for part II and float it around here. The movie has my head buzzing and I just gotta get something down on paper.

Put Bebop and rocksteady in, and reveal sachs's pre-adoption by Shredder name to be Baxter Stockman, and you've got some one who'll read your story here!

sethmartin · 08-13-2014, 02:11 PM

Shredder should have wanted the mutagen to make more mutants! It would have been cool if Shredder had betrayed Sacks at the end or something. As far as Shredder and Splinter having no connection, it wouldn't have bothered me too much, except they tried to make it seem like they did! One of the biggest problems with this movie is that most of the interesting info is just brushed over through characters talking and not actually shown! Even if they had shown a scene of Shredder kicking the rat around the lab, it would have at least made some sense. None of the flashbacks show Shredder. Only Sacks. Which makes me think that originally Splinter had a connection with Sacks and knew he was the Shredder. However, it was cut in order to shoehorn in an Asian Shredder at the 11th hour.

ScrewtheMirageTMNT · 08-13-2014, 02:14 PM

I don't know why people think shredder and splinter have no history, it's implied in the movie that they do.

08-12-2014, 06:43 AM	#1
FakeBritishAccent Thug Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 90	The Splinter/Shredder Connection (some plothole clean-up for part two) While I wasn't particularly bothered by the lack of connection between Splinter and Shredder at first, the more I thought of it, the more it bugged me. However, I felt like the movie left enough leeway so the next flick could get it right. There are four points that can be expanded upon in the sequel, and if the writers can hone in on these four points, it will make a lot of us happy. 1. In the flashback scene, Splinter mentions that he has no recollection of life before the lab. It would be easy for the sequel to suggest that Splinter's cognitive abilities were superpowered by the mutagen. As he grew larger and smarter, memories of his life before the lab becames startingly vivid and after him and the turtles were full-grown, Splinter remembers that his original owner was a ninjitsu master named Hamato Yoshii...a man who was killed by Oroku Saki in Japan. 2. After murdering Yoshii, Oroku Saki takes the rat and gifts him to Eric Sachs, his adopted son. A prepubescent (but still genius) Sachs submits small animals to experiments ranging from groundbreaking to just flat-out sadistic, but he spares his newest pet rat. The Rat is witness to not only Sachs' cruelty, but Oroku Saki and the Foot Clan who're terrorizing Japan, thus instilling in him a great fear and disgust of both Sachs and Shredder in the present day. This would explain Splinter's extremely convenient knowledge of Shredder and Sach's relationship in the first movie, and give him the drive to one day defeat Shredder and the Foot Clan, which he would do by... 3. Training his sons in the ways of the ninja. Splinter's skills came from not only remembering the years he spent as Hamato Yoshi's pet rat, but also from watching Shredder and the Foot honing their skills. He actually LIED to his sons about the root of his knowledge because he remembers the carnage and death that the Foot Clan wreaked in Japan and was ashamed of being witness to it. He made up a story about finding some book so he wouldn't have to admit his little connection to the Foot. A connection that... 4. Shredder has never forgotten. Upon Shredder's encounter with the mutated Splinter, he hisses "Rat" in such a derogatory manner that one can assume Shredder never forgot that Splinter was his pet. In the sequel, Shredder (Super Shredder?) can toss off a line like "When Karai told me that her men were defeated by monsters who were masters of the Foot Clan's fighting style, I didn't believe it...until I saw it with my own eyes" or something. He can go on and monologue that explains how Shredder decided to experiment on Sach's pet rat as a final eff you to Hamato Yoshii's memory...but never thought it would come back to bite him in the ass. So there you go. I know it may seem like a cheat utilizing false memories and lies to forge the connection, but if handle correctly, the writers of the second movie can fake like all those missed beats in the first movie were intentional, maybe as a way to seed the sequel. Or maybe the third movie? I kinda don't want to see Shredder again until it's the FINAL showdown.

08-12-2014, 12:25 PM	#3
Panda_Kahn_fan Mad Scientist Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,715	Ehhhh, I'm actually still pushing for Splinter to be a reincarnation of Hamato Yoshi, in some way or another, and for Saki to have homehow killed yoshi in his past life. With Nick and IDW, we seem to have left the 'pet rat of Yoshi' thing pretty much in the past anyway. __________________ My TMNT fanfic: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1266176...n-a-Half-Shell IDW is the best version of TMNT If they make a TMNT reboot movie retelling the shredder battle/origin, I won't buy a ticket.

08-12-2014, 02:43 PM	#4
victory_angel Foot Elite Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Ca Posts: 3,103	The way I interpreted the situation is that Splinter and the Shredder had encountered before or at least recognized each other in an adversarial kind of way. Maybe it's a cross of the IDW and the Nick series where Hamato Yoshi and Shredder were friends but then Shredder learns that he is from a clan that was destroyed by the Hamato Clan. He kills Tang Shen and sets the Hamato Families compound on fire, and is severely burnt in the fire as he takes the only surviving member of the Hamato clan a little girl who he names Karai. Hamato Yoshi is morally wounded and with his last breath he prays that he will be able to get revenge. Thus his soul is reborn as Splinter the rat. So when he meets Shredder again Shredder is able to sense the spirit of his old enemy reborn in Splinter. This could actually be a plausible explanation as to how he was able to teach himself ninjitsu and then teach it to his sons using a book. He just merely saw the book and as he taught himself the memories of his past life began to make each move feel familiar. Then again, maybe the Turtles are also the reborn souls of Hamato Yoshi's children, but unlike Splinter they haven't given to much thought as to how they were able to learn Ninjitsu so easily. __________________

08-12-2014, 09:08 AM	#2
sethmartin Stone Warrior Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 706	As much as I wished the origin included Yoshi and Saki, it's pretty clear that they just don't want to include it for some reason. It's not even clear that the Shredder is even Oroku Saki. Yes, he's Japanese but they never address him as Oroku Saki in the movie. When he meets Splinter, he doesn't act like he really knows him from anything other than being a rat at the lab. Would have been cool if after Splinter told his version of the story he learns more about it throughout the film. But no, let's just have Splinter get hurt so we have a convenient excuse for not having him be a major part of the story. If Sacks had been the Shredder, and Splinter had been the pet of April's father, it actually would have made sense and would have been closer to the origin even though it was a white washed version. But no, they did reshoots and shoehorned in an Asian shredder just be caused people complained.

08-13-2014, 02:11 PM	#7
sethmartin Stone Warrior Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 706	Shredder should have wanted the mutagen to make more mutants! It would have been cool if Shredder had betrayed Sacks at the end or something. As far as Shredder and Splinter having no connection, it wouldn't have bothered me too much, except they tried to make it seem like they did! One of the biggest problems with this movie is that most of the interesting info is just brushed over through characters talking and not actually shown! Even if they had shown a scene of Shredder kicking the rat around the lab, it would have at least made some sense. None of the flashbacks show Shredder. Only Sacks. Which makes me think that originally Splinter had a connection with Sacks and knew he was the Shredder. However, it was cut in order to shoehorn in an Asian Shredder at the 11th hour.

08-13-2014, 02:14 PM	#8
ScrewtheMirageTMNT Hench Mutant Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 493	I don't know why people think shredder and splinter have no history, it's implied in the movie that they do.