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Old 10-04-2017, 05:17 PM   #3101
Vegita-San
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Originally Posted by ToTheNines View Post
Oh eff that. The last scene of the series is ****ing 87 Bebop dancing? Get bent Nickelodeon.


.
you just sent half a dozen hard cases into cardiac arrest with that line .

I can imagine the whoa is me, if the new series is like teen titans go

personally, i'd rather have one more like justice league action if we have to go that route.
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Old 10-04-2017, 05:30 PM   #3102
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Who knew 80s Bebop would have the the last laugh in every future turtles show, destroying the Utrom Shredder in TF and dancing away as the Nick show went into oblivion.
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Old 10-04-2017, 06:08 PM   #3103
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Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
you just sent half a dozen hard cases into cardiac arrest with that line .

I can imagine the whoa is me, if the new series is like teen titans go

personally, i'd rather have one more like justice league action if we have to go that route.
I doubt it will be at all....

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Old 10-05-2017, 07:27 AM   #3104
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I guess it depends when the bomb went off, we could have done with that being confirmed. Also, how far in the the future is Renet from?
You think that this is the canon future too? Might i remind you that all of the humans either died or got mutated? So there's no way Renet would exist in a world where there are only mutants.

I'm just using logic that Mutant Apocalypse is set in an alternate timeline. What more do you guys want?
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:31 AM   #3105
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Originally Posted by matteso586 View Post
You think that this is the canon future too? Might i remind you that all of the humans either died or got mutated? So there's no way Renet would exist in a world where there are only mutants.

I'm just using logic that Mutant Apocalypse is set in an alternate timeline. What more do you guys want?
Actually I wasn't stating (nor have I stated) my personal opinion on whether or not I think it's canon, I was just asking questions.

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Old 10-05-2017, 12:43 PM   #3106
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Originally Posted by matteso586 View Post
So there's no way Renet would exist in a world where there are only mutants.
?
Again, is it even confirmed Renet is from Earth? Or just some parallel time dimension where the beings look like humans? Tons of sci-fi have humans scattered all over the galaxy like Star Wars and such, they don't have to be from Earth.
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:35 PM   #3107
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Originally Posted by matteso586 View Post
You think that this is the canon future too? Might i remind you that all of the humans either died or got mutated? So there's no way Renet would exist in a world where there are only mutants.

I'm just using logic that Mutant Apocalypse is set in an alternate timeline. What more do you guys want?
Renet is an extra-dimensional being. Y'all need to stop forcing your theories.
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:54 PM   #3108
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I wonder if Renet telling the turtles they're famous heroes in world history happened before or after the Mutant Apocalypse. I like to imagine it was the latter
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:59 PM   #3109
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Folks are reading too much into that quote in the first place. There is said to be only one Renet in the multi-verse (as in, every version of her is the same person, but with different memories & concepts of space/time - & this comes from the writings of Kevin Eastman) which suggests she may well have been referring to the TMNT as a concept, rather than the Nick turtles, specifically.
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Old 10-05-2017, 06:39 PM   #3110
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Renet is an extra-dimensional being. Y'all need to stop forcing your theories.
Except for the part where she specifically said that she's from the future in her debut episode.
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:05 PM   #3111
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Originally Posted by matteso586 View Post
Except for the part where she specifically said that she's from the future in her debut episode.
Yeah she did, but she never said she was human, nor that it was from Earth's future, just one small detail that she left out deliberatly could turn something that seems to contradict something into something that fits right in with the original info.

Like for example "I came from the future where you guys are legendary heroes (even though the world ended and every human mutated, you guys rebuild the world and helped create an Eden for different species from all over the galaxy to live together in harmony, and altough that was 3000 years before I was born your legacy still prevails)".

There, she's still from the future, they're still legendary heroes and it doesn't contradict anything from the finale.
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:15 PM   #3112
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but how can they be legendary heroes?

unless we are given a time frame of when the bomb went off, everything seems to be in the same style as when they are teenagers from that quick glimpse, just like the other flash backs.

and so far, the turtles hadn't announced themselves to the world, so they can hardly be legendary. as in tales of heroism told past down to the ages.

as for her being human, other sci fi shows have shown aliens that look largely human, so I can agree that might be open to interpretation.
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Old 10-05-2017, 07:16 PM   #3113
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Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
but how can they be legendary heroes?.
Because it's obvious the bomb didn't literally go off after the last present day season 5 episode. It could have happened 20-30 years after we left off on them.

Remember the Turtles said they didn't know if each other or Leo were even alive after the explosion, so you guys seriously think they never ran into Leonardo in 40+ years? Of course not. The timeframe is likely 10 years maybe tops.
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:55 PM   #3114
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Originally Posted by ToTheNines View Post
Again, you can think what you want. But you're trying to discredit the creator because you didn't like something.
Well, I'm glad you're open to other views. However, I don't need to "discredit" the creator. He managed that quite well on his own when he dropped a turd, attempted to polish it up, and tried to pass it off as the series "finale".
And I've explained multiple times that this is more than just "disliking" the arc. If it was only that, I would be disappointed for some time, yes. But, then, I would move on and ignore it (as I do with the latter seasons of the 2003 series). This arc, on the other hand, blatantly contradicts canon. I'm still not ignoring that.

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Originally Posted by ToTheNines View Post
So yeah, think what you want. Just don't tell me your headcanon is official.
Depends on what you mean by official. Nick has said the arc is not canon. But, I would argue that the arc itself contradicts canon so badly that it cannot possibly be canon.
But, if you want to headcanon it as the "true" ending, go right ahead. I respect other people's views.

On that note, this is from an individual who has been following the debate, but is not a forum member, and wanted to add their perspective :
http://ea-solinas.tumblr.com/post/16...ctual-property
The full post is at the link, but here are some some excerpts:
"I’ve seen people explaining that it’s ridiculous to suggest that Viacom/Nickelodeon get to determine canon, because it would be like Stephen King’s publisher telling him that a book of the Dark Tower series isn’t canon. That is false equivalence, because the DT series is King’s intellectual property. He made up the story, the characters, the world, the concept, and the connections to other things that stemmed entirely from his brain and to which he holds the rights. Publishing them doesn’t take away those rights, and therefore the publisher does not have the authority to determine canon.

The situation of Viacom/Nickelodeon and the TMNT is ENTIRELY different. It’s more akin to Stephen King being hired to write a book set in Middle-Earth starring established Silmarillion characters, the rights of which belong to the Tolkien Estate. If King were hired to write such a book, did write it and published it, but the Tolkien Estate stated that it was not canon… that would be the end of it. It wouldn’t be canon because they have the authority to determine what material is canon or not. They own the intellectual property rights, not King.
Viacom/Nickelodeon are not just releasing someone else’s vision for the TMNT. They actually bought the complete rights to the entire franchise. Not just the comics or the old TV show, THE FRANCHISE. Everything. It is theirs. That gives them the right to decide what is canon."
......
"In case I need to explain it, intellectual property can be sold, which is what Peter Laird did. That bestows not only the right to publish/produce material, but to decide what is canon. Peter Laird said as much last year

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....40688557061094

when he stated that the canonicity of certain guest Mirage issues is only his “opinion,” and should be asked of the “new owners” of the franchise. And that’s the man who [expletive] co-created the Turtles and their world in the FIRST PLACE, not just a guy they hired to produce the show. He knows what selling intellectual property means: it means surrendering your right to authority.
Which brings us to Ciro Nieli: he does not and never had intellectual property rights to the Turtles franchise. He WORKED for the people who do. The characters do not originate with him. The concept does not originate with him. The world does not originate with him. If they had, he would have rights to determine what was done with them unless he sold those rights to someone else, as Laird did. But he didn’t create them, and he didn’t buy the rights, so he doesn’t determine what is canon.

So comparing him to Stephen King is completely wrong. King writes his own stories with his own characters and his own worlds, and unless he sells the rights, that material belongs to him. Nieli? He was GRANTED the ability to make a version of a property that belonged to others.

It’s the difference between playing in someone else’s sandbox and building your own. You have the rights to make your own rules in your own sandbox. Not so with others’."

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Originally Posted by Cyndaquilfan123 View Post
So wait, you’re saying the Finale itself was not canon?
Nickelodeon says it's not. As to whether or not it is the true ending, that is completely up to you. I would point out that it contradicts canon, but if you like it as the "true" ending, I won't judge your headcanons

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Originally Posted by matteso586 View Post
Did you forget about Renet? And claims that the Turtles are going to become legendary heroes? So Mutant Apocalypse is obviously an alternate universe.
Obviously.

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Originally Posted by NinjaPug View Post
I'm amazed at the leaps people are making to discredit the finale as being canon just because they didn't like it.
There is no need to "discredit" the Mutant Apocalypse arc (I refuse to call it the finale, at least on purpose). It contradicted canon; it only works as some form of an alternate reality/future. What's amazing is how some people are trying so desperately to find some way to force this dumpster fire masquerading as a "finale" to fit into the canon storyline.

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Originally Posted by matteso586 View Post
I'm just using logic that Mutant Apocalypse is set in an alternate timeline. What more do you guys want?
You're using logic. That right there is the problem.
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Old 10-05-2017, 09:26 PM   #3115
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But, then, I would move on and ignore it (as I do with the latter seasons of the 2003 series). This arc, on the other hand, blatantly contradicts canon. I'm still not ignoring that.
.
The last seasons of the 2k3 series have plenty of good episodes and are part of established canon too.
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:27 PM   #3116
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Old 10-05-2017, 10:41 PM   #3117
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Originally Posted by Vegita-San View Post
but how can they be legendary heroes?

unless we are given a time frame of when the bomb went off, everything seems to be in the same style as when they are teenagers from that quick glimpse, just like the other flash backs.

and so far, the turtles hadn't announced themselves to the world, so they can hardly be legendary. as in tales of heroism told past down to the ages.

as for her being human, other sci fi shows have shown aliens that look largely human, so I can agree that might be open to interpretation.
On my hypothetical scenario they became Legendary Heroes by unifying the mutants of the Earth that where left alive in an Utopia around the Oasis, that would later grew into an Eden that would welcome all sorts of Aliens from other worlds and Dimensions, creating a perfect Paradise that would become the Earth that Renet grew up in, the story of how they created that Paradise would be passed on for generations, thus how they became Legendary Heroes known all over the Earth. Just because it is the finale it doesn't mean it's the end of their adventures, nothing says they didn't became Legendary Heroes AFTER the finale...

Like I said this is just one of many scenarios how what we know of the finale and what Renet told the guys could coexist in the same timeline, with no needs of alternate futures and the like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asfaloth12 View Post
Well, I'm glad you're open to other views. However, I don't need to "discredit" the creator. He managed that quite well on his own when he dropped a turd, attempted to polish it up, and tried to pass it off as the series "finale".
And I've explained multiple times that this is more than just "disliking" the arc. If it was only that, I would be disappointed for some time, yes. But, then, I would move on and ignore it (as I do with the latter seasons of the 2003 series). This arc, on the other hand, blatantly contradicts canon. I'm still not ignoring that.


Depends on what you mean by official. Nick has said the arc is not canon. But, I would argue that the arc itself contradicts canon so badly that it cannot possibly be canon.
But, if you want to headcanon it as the "true" ending, go right ahead. I respect other people's views.

On that note, this is from an individual who has been following the debate, but is not a forum member, and wanted to add their perspective :
http://ea-solinas.tumblr.com/post/16...ctual-property
The full post is at the link, but here are some some excerpts:
"I’ve seen people explaining that it’s ridiculous to suggest that Viacom/Nickelodeon get to determine canon, because it would be like Stephen King’s publisher telling him that a book of the Dark Tower series isn’t canon. That is false equivalence, because the DT series is King’s intellectual property. He made up the story, the characters, the world, the concept, and the connections to other things that stemmed entirely from his brain and to which he holds the rights. Publishing them doesn’t take away those rights, and therefore the publisher does not have the authority to determine canon.

The situation of Viacom/Nickelodeon and the TMNT is ENTIRELY different. It’s more akin to Stephen King being hired to write a book set in Middle-Earth starring established Silmarillion characters, the rights of which belong to the Tolkien Estate. If King were hired to write such a book, did write it and published it, but the Tolkien Estate stated that it was not canon… that would be the end of it. It wouldn’t be canon because they have the authority to determine what material is canon or not. They own the intellectual property rights, not King.
Viacom/Nickelodeon are not just releasing someone else’s vision for the TMNT. They actually bought the complete rights to the entire franchise. Not just the comics or the old TV show, THE FRANCHISE. Everything. It is theirs. That gives them the right to decide what is canon."
......
"In case I need to explain it, intellectual property can be sold, which is what Peter Laird did. That bestows not only the right to publish/produce material, but to decide what is canon. Peter Laird said as much last year

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....40688557061094

when he stated that the canonicity of certain guest Mirage issues is only his “opinion,” and should be asked of the “new owners” of the franchise. And that’s the man who [expletive] co-created the Turtles and their world in the FIRST PLACE, not just a guy they hired to produce the show. He knows what selling intellectual property means: it means surrendering your right to authority.
Which brings us to Ciro Nieli: he does not and never had intellectual property rights to the Turtles franchise. He WORKED for the people who do. The characters do not originate with him. The concept does not originate with him. The world does not originate with him. If they had, he would have rights to determine what was done with them unless he sold those rights to someone else, as Laird did. But he didn’t create them, and he didn’t buy the rights, so he doesn’t determine what is canon.

So comparing him to Stephen King is completely wrong. King writes his own stories with his own characters and his own worlds, and unless he sells the rights, that material belongs to him. Nieli? He was GRANTED the ability to make a version of a property that belonged to others.

It’s the difference between playing in someone else’s sandbox and building your own. You have the rights to make your own rules in your own sandbox. Not so with others’."


Nickelodeon says it's not. As to whether or not it is the true ending, that is completely up to you. I would point out that it contradicts canon, but if you like it as the "true" ending, I won't judge your headcanons


Obviously.


There is no need to "discredit" the Mutant Apocalypse arc (I refuse to call it the finale, at least on purpose). It contradicted canon; it only works as some form of an alternate reality/future. What's amazing is how some people are trying so desperately to find some way to force this dumpster fire masquerading as a "finale" to fit into the canon storyline.


You're using logic. That right there is the problem.
You go on and on and on how it contradicts canon and yet I never see you explain how it does so... And if you say the word Renet I call bull on that, not enough info about her "present" to say it's not possible for it to happen in the same timeline as the finale like I demonstrated above
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Old 10-06-2017, 12:16 AM   #3118
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Just a few things I'm wondering, not argiung, just pondering here.

Renet and the future. As for the discussion on the legendary heros, it could have been after as some suggested, finding the oasis etc.
On the other hand they were quite old, but granted still had time make a difference.
She said they were in the history books so I imagine the world got to the point that we had them again then.
Finally, she called Mikey the Cute one, someone would then have to remember the days when he was cute. That wouldn't be after be the apocalypse.
If the bomb had gone off 20 years later, there would be time for some of that to fit, I don't know how far into the future she was from though.

Or, is it that the writers just hadn't planned this as an end back then and decided not to let that episode get in the way of their planned finale? they could choose to do that.
Unless, it was a 'tale' just the planned final one. I'm not going onto the 'was it or wasn't it a tale' debate though, I know what Nick have said, I'm just thinking of the writers intentions with the episode at the moment, they haven't said it's a tale...unless I have that wrong.

When the bomb went off: All they have to do is tell us! A writer on the show said it was while they were young (posted in either this thread or the arc thread) but that didn't come from Brandon or Ciro. Also, as I've discussed with another member already, young is still up to 30. They could have been stuck in the wasteland for 40-50 years or it could have been less.
I think a lot of people think it was right afterwards, the bomb going off later both helps the Renet confusion and also takes a degree of sadness from the arc (for me anyway, they all at least had longer before it all went to crap)

Last edited by newfan; 10-06-2017 at 12:24 AM.
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Old 10-06-2017, 10:27 AM   #3119
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Originally Posted by asfaloth12 View Post
Well, I'm glad you're open to other views. However, I don't need to "discredit" the creator. He managed that quite well on his own when he dropped a turd, attempted to polish it up, and tried to pass it off as the series "finale".
And I've explained multiple times that this is more than just "disliking" the arc. If it was only that, I would be disappointed for some time, yes. But, then, I would move on and ignore it (as I do with the latter seasons of the 2003 series). This arc, on the other hand, blatantly contradicts canon. I'm still not ignoring that.
No, you just didn't like it. Sometimes fiction has contradictions and plot holes. Doesn't negate its belonging to a larger body of work.

Quote:
Depends on what you mean by official. Nick has said the arc is not canon. But, I would argue that the arc itself contradicts canon so badly that it cannot possibly be canon.
Nick has not said that it's not canon. They have only said the '87 crossover is the series finale.

Quote:
But, if you want to headcanon it as the "true" ending, go right ahead. I respect other people's views.
I will. Enjoy your stupid scene of FW Bebop dancing as the final moment of this great show.

Quote:

On that note, this is from an individual who has been following the debate, but is not a forum member, and wanted to add their perspective :
http://ea-solinas.tumblr.com/post/16...ctual-property
The full post is at the link, but here are some some excerpts:
"I’ve seen people explaining that it’s ridiculous to suggest that Viacom/Nickelodeon get to determine canon, because it would be like Stephen King’s publisher telling him that a book of the Dark Tower series isn’t canon. That is false equivalence, because the DT series is King’s intellectual property. He made up the story, the characters, the world, the concept, and the connections to other things that stemmed entirely from his brain and to which he holds the rights. Publishing them doesn’t take away those rights, and therefore the publisher does not have the authority to determine canon.

The situation of Viacom/Nickelodeon and the TMNT is ENTIRELY different. It’s more akin to Stephen King being hired to write a book set in Middle-Earth starring established Silmarillion characters, the rights of which belong to the Tolkien Estate. If King were hired to write such a book, did write it and published it, but the Tolkien Estate stated that it was not canon… that would be the end of it. It wouldn’t be canon because they have the authority to determine what material is canon or not. They own the intellectual property rights, not King.
Viacom/Nickelodeon are not just releasing someone else’s vision for the TMNT. They actually bought the complete rights to the entire franchise. Not just the comics or the old TV show, THE FRANCHISE. Everything. It is theirs. That gives them the right to decide what is canon."
Jesus Christ. What a motherf*cking idiot. First of all, I said it was an arbitrary example, I knew it wasn't a perfect example.

Secondly... false equivalence? How about that retarded Tolkein example? Ciro was hired to create a new universe based on existing characters, not try to fit something into an existing fictional universe

Quote:
......
"In case I need to explain it, intellectual property can be sold, which is what Peter Laird did. That bestows not only the right to publish/produce material, but to decide what is canon. Peter Laird said as much last year

http://peterlairdstmntblog.blogspot....40688557061094

when he stated that the canonicity of certain guest Mirage issues is only his “opinion,” and should be asked of the “new owners” of the franchise. And that’s the man who [expletive] co-created the Turtles and their world in the FIRST PLACE, not just a guy they hired to produce the show. He knows what selling intellectual property means: it means surrendering your right to authority.
Which brings us to Ciro Nieli: he does not and never had intellectual property rights to the Turtles franchise. He WORKED for the people who do. The characters do not originate with him. The concept does not originate with him. The world does not originate with him. If they had, he would have rights to determine what was done with them unless he sold those rights to someone else, as Laird did. But he didn’t create them, and he didn’t buy the rights, so he doesn’t determine what is canon.

So comparing him to Stephen King is completely wrong. King writes his own stories with his own characters and his own worlds, and unless he sells the rights, that material belongs to him. Nieli? He was GRANTED the ability to make a version of a property that belonged to others.

It’s the difference between playing in someone else’s sandbox and building your own. You have the rights to make your own rules in your own sandbox. Not so with others’."
Wow. This fool is really hung up on the legal aspect of this and has no respect for the creative side of things.

I don't give a sh*t what Peter said, as he's been wrong about stuff in the past. And the Mirage universe was so flexible anyways. But if the owner of any intellectual property says something demonstrably wrong, why would you side with them over the actual creator of the story? Stupid.

I'm also floored by their brain dead Star Wars comparisons. Seriously? There's countless contradictions between the PT and the OT alone.
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Old 10-06-2017, 11:00 AM   #3120
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Season 5 is the last season, and then in 2018, it gets rebooted as a 2D series and aimed at a younger demographic, so expect a more kid friendly version sometime next year.
Okay...Come Shredder be in 2018?
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