Godzilla vs. Kong

[Leo656]

Like, the actual plot being such a mess was what really killed me. Some people swear "Nobody watches these movies for the plot," but that's ridiculous. I very much like to understand what's going on and why. Too many characters, too many subplots, too much jumping between without adequate explanation. Yes, I care about the kaiju fights, but without a good framework it may as well be a cartoon.

Like, just for example, why again did they need to go inside the Hollow Earth with Kong if he was just gonna end up fighting Godzilla in Hong Kong? "Something something maybe something there can help fight Godzilla" was all I got from it. And sure, he found the axe, but neither Kong nor the scientists knew that would be there - or that anything would be there, really - and the entire plan seemed incredibly risky anyway. The entire middle act seemed like filler, like "Stuff is happening Because Plot and Runtime Demand It"... but it didn't feel like it made much sense or had much reason to happen. It all looked great, but I swear, I couldn't remember why anyone was even doing anything, by that point.

I agree that the sci-fi stuff felt a bit too over-the-top, compared to how grounded the solo Kong and Godzilla films were. I mean between the Magical Flying Machines that can withstand super-intense gravity pressure, and the outfits the mission scientists wore that looked like something out of Singer's X-Men films, it all just felt VERY disconnected from the earlier films and almost like something out of a super-hero movie. I guess that if you're gonna pop the cork on MechaGodzilla, you really have to Go Big, but... I mean, even that... like, a giant MechaGodzilla should probably be the most "fantastic" and unbelievable thing in the movie, right? But we've already established the Magic Flying Machines that can survive the pressures of the planet's core, so... Yeah, the giant mech dinosaur is no longer as amazing as he should be. AND he should have been in the movie more. There's definitely a few good "money shots" of MechaGodzilla, but by the time he shows up the movie's almost over and while the scenes he's in are good, they're too late and too short. I felt like he just showed up and all of a sudden he's scrap metal. They could have introduced MechaGodzilla in Act I and it would've been a much more exciting movie, frankly. I'm sure they could have found a way.

Also, why did it feel like Serizawa's kid should've been a much bigger deal? Like, there's some unspoken irony or something about his Dad being Godzilla's "pal" and now he's piloting MechaGodzilla with his mind to help the Evil Scientists... but they don't do anything with it, and at the end he's dead, I guess? Like, we don't see him again after MechaGodzilla fights off his control, and he looked pretty dead after getting electrocuted. I could believe that character had an entirely different name in the original shoot, and then someone was like, "We should make him Serizawa's kid!" and then just added that one line of dialog in post. Because that could have been very interesting, and in the end it's a lot of Nothing.

I couldn't believe that they stopped MechaGodzilla by pouring whiskey on the control console. That was like something out of a bad cartoon. I was like "That seriously has to be a setup for something, that CAN'T be how they 'win', that would be ridiculous"... except it was legit. You could tell that they really just gave up, by that point. The writers were very clearly in "This movie needs to end" mode.

Like, I really, REALLY wanted to like this one, but the more I'm thinking about it the less I can defend it. I liked all the other ones. KOTM gets a ton of hate but I don't really see the problems with that one. THIS one, though, I definitely see a lot of problems with. And it really feels like the people making it listened to entirely the wrong people after the last couple. There's always a ton of people who say loudly and often, "Nobody watches these movies for Characters and Plot, they just wanna see the CGI monster fights." And y'know, I get why people would say that, but I don't think that's true. I think those things DO matter, and you can tell when they're bad, and they can drag the entire experience down. This movie just SCREAMS that it was written by people who didn't care one bit about Characters and Plot... because "Nobody else cares, either". The characters do nothing except give exposition and make bad jokes, and the "plot" in between those monster fights makes little to no sense at all. I do plan to watch it again, but I can't believe that a big part of that was because I'm hoping to understand it better the second time, and not because I was so "Wow'ed" that I actually want to watch it again.

They basically went full-spectacle, "Nothing matters but the CGI goodies". Like a Transformers movie. That's what it felt like to me. And that's pretty heartbreaking, because those movies are awful and the others in this series were a LOT better than this. The "money shots" are there, but I wish it were more of a "real" movie. You could just whittle this one down to a 20-minute video of the fight scenes and you wouldn't miss a damn thing.

It didn't feel "epic" like it should have. I don't know if it was the lousy dialog, the bad "comedy", the muddled plot, or a combination of all those things. It just should have felt like a much bigger deal. Instead it felt... obligatory. Like very little care or heart went into it. It feels very much like "product". The others felt like Real Movies, even KOTM.

I sound pretty harsh, I know. I mean, I don't think it's actually "bad", but... parts of it are, for sure. And it should have been a LOT better.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

Like, just for example, why again did they need to go inside the Hollow Earth with Kong if he was just gonna end up fighting Godzilla in Hong Kong?

That's a good question. Why even bother?

And little things, things like killing off the entire population of Skull Island (minus the little girl) "just because"? Why? I guess to make Kong OK to go be a king somewhere else? Apparently in this Hollow Earth that appears to be completely uninhabited?

"Something something maybe something there can help fight Godzilla" was all I got from it. And sure, he found the axe, but neither Kong nor the scientists knew that would be there - or that anything would be there, really - and the entire plan seemed incredibly risky anyway. The entire middle act seemed like filler, like "Stuff is happening Because Plot and Runtime Demand It"... but it didn't feel like it made much sense or had much reason to happen. It all looked great, but I swear, I couldn't remember why anyone was even doing anything, by that point.

Me neither.

I agree that the sci-fi stuff felt a bit too over-the-top, compared to how grounded the solo Kong and Godzilla films were. I mean between the Magical Flying Machines that can withstand super-intense gravity pressure, and the outfits the mission scientists wore that looked like something out of Singer's X-Men films, it all just felt VERY disconnected from the earlier films and almost like something out of a super-hero movie.

KOTM gets a ton of hate but I don't really see the problems with that one.

The stuff you bring up here about the sci-fi stuff being over-the-top is a big part of what made KOTM feel so disconnected from the first Godzilla movie and Skull Island. That and them giving up on even trying at all with the human stuff, which was truly terrible in KOTM.

Godzilla (2014) we had all kinds of relatable stuff with father/son stuff, "what if a giant monster really did invade the world tomorrow?" and real world military tech and maneuvers. Skull Island, we had a 70s period piece with fun characters fleshed out just enough that we cared about them when they go under the knife.

KOTM? Suddenly the world has Independence Day: Resurgence-level tech, helicarrier-type stuff with Iron Man reactors, and everything revolves around a little girl who... wants to destroy the world (and can, because contrivances), for dumb reasons? Godzillla vs. Kong just continues that stuff.

[Leo656]

Well, I hear that, but I didn't think it was quite as bad in KOTM as it was here, either the super-advanced tech or the human character stuff.

Like I didn't think the human character stuff in KOTM was GREAT, mind you, but it was serviceable. This movie was like... every time anyone said anything, I wanted them to stop immediately. The script is SO BAD, especially the dialog. When Millie's character said that line about "Godzilla gave us peace; YOU provoked him into WAR!", it's not supposed to be funny but I had to try very hard not to laugh. Total cringe, at what is supposed to be an "emotional" moment. Like, I've heard that she's supposedly a decent actress, but I haven't seen her in much and her line delivery in this movie was truly, truly awful. Like "Natalie Portman in Star Wars (pick any)" levels of Awful. And again, as the biggest "name" in the cast, I'm shocked that she got so little to do in this. She's literally only in it because she signed a two-picture deal, not for any plot-reasons. Her character adds nothing, does nothing, and is of completely zero consequence. She's even less important than Whatsername, the rich scientist/boss lady who looks like Selena Gomez with bigger cans, who's only there to be a bitch and then die. SO many characters in this movie serve no purpose at all. And given how low the "body count" is for a kaiju movie, having so much deadweight in the cast is pointless if more of them aren't gonna get killed off. And again, why even bother with Serizawa Jr. if we don't even get to know him as a character? He's only there to link with MechaGodzilla, and then die. He may as well be named Charlie f*cking Chan, for all the importance of being Serizawa's kid impacted the plot of the goddamn movie.

So yeah, I will concede that the human character stuff in KOTM is by no means "great"... but I would argue that it was still WAY better than it was in this movie. The human stuff in this one is SO bad that I almost wish they really did just make a 90-minute CGI slugfest movie instead. THAT movie would be considerably less annoying than This One.

As for the advanced tech stuff... again, not "great" in KOTM but still not as awful as here. I found it more believable in KOTM, not to mention that while I haven't seen all or even most of the Japanese films, that level of Fantasy Tech is so prevalent in those films that I could more or less just roll with it, seeing as how that movie and this movie are clearly trying to lean more into the vein of those types of films in some ways. Like, it felt like if the timeline starts in the 1970s and the various corporations and governments who knew about Kong and the possibility of other kaiju had time to surreptitiously prepare and develop certain things... some of it felt much more plausible than the Fantasy Tech in this movie did. The gravity cars bit really felt like suddenly I was watching an X-Men movie; the costumes the "scientists" wore didn't do much to help that.

I do agree that these were flaws that existed in KOTM; but I don't agree that KOTM did worse with those elements. I think the way they were played with in this movie was much, much worse.

This movie feels very, very... perfunctory.

If you told me that they started assembling the project with the CGI monster fight scenes, and then took whatever time and money they had left over to slap together something resembling a "narrative" so they could puff it into something feature film-length... I would absolutely believe you.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

I do agree that these were flaws that existed in KOTM; but I don't agree that KOTM did worse with those elements. I think the way they were played with in this movie was much, much worse.

Maybe you're right. KOTM isn't super fresh in my mind atm... I just know that beyond anything else I went into KOTM super excited, particularly after Godzilla (2014) and Skull Island, and leaving the movie feeling like just about any enthusiasm I had for the entire "MonsterVerse" had been crushed to death. What was semi-realistic and scary and "Wow!" had been changed into silly, corny, outlandish and dumb. Which I guess is what the big fans of the old Toho stuff expect anyway, but I thought they were really trying for something different here.

Is Godzilla vs. Kong more of the same? Yeah, for sure. Is it worse? Mmm... I'm not sure. It might be. I guess the key difference in the human stuff in Godzilla vs. Kong as opposed to the human stuff in KOTM is that while the human stuff in Godzilla vs. Kong wasn't much of anything at all (when in Godzilla (2014) and Skull Island, they did it very well), it didn't actively stupify and annoy the hell out of me as it did in KOTM. So maybe, human stuff... written really, really badly in KOTM with some truly bizarre choices, and in Godzilla vs. Kong... just barely written at all?

Though human stuff aside, I remember there was at least a couple of moments with Mothra in KOTM that made me "feel" something. Godzilla vs. Kong didn't even have that.

I think they should've just had Kong sacrifice himself to stop Mechagodzilla in a big and meaningful gesture. That might have sold it for me. They're never going to do Skull Island 2 anyway, so why not? As is, it's just this isolated incident built around a nonsense plot.

[Leo656]

I mean, it's been a while since I watched KOTM again - probably soon, as my wife wants to do a series run - but I definitely don't recall being so flat-out pissed off every time the characters spoke, nor as completely baffled as to what the f*ck was actually happening plot-wise, as I was while watching this one.

There is no way that movie had worse dialog or characters quite as paper-thin as THIS one. That's not even possible. This is literally one of the worst-scripted movies I think I've ever seen. The stuff coming out of these people's mouths is f*cking ASS. And I'm almost positive KOTM at least did more with its characters, whereas here they ONLY exist to give exposition and occasionally scream in fear.

Also, the stakes felt a lot bigger in KOTM. There was no real sense of urgency, here. Yeah, you see MechaGodzilla knock over a city, but it all happens so fast - and he's done away with so quickly and easily - that you don't FEEL the stakes. Ghidorah felt like a real world-ender of a threat. MechaGodzilla felt like, "We need to show that Kong and Godzilla are friends now, and also, we're running ten minutes short. So HERE, MechaGodzilla." He LOOKED great, though, I just felt that overall it was a huge step back from KOTM in just about every way.

There was a definite tonal shift from the more grounded reality of Godzilla and Skull Island starting with KOTM, yeah, for sure. It didn't bother me as much as some folks, since I fully expected them to lean into the more "Japanese", over-the-top type of stuff going forward. Perhaps it could have been done more delicately, and I agree that if it were my choice I wouldn't have gone QUITE so hard and so fast into that territory. But I'd still argue that it's all handled better in KOTM than this one. Sure, this one is only carrying on those creative choices, but this one by comparison just feels very very lazy and like it was made with very little care.

Aside from the visuals and music, which were admittedly quite impressive.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

There was a definite tonal shift from the more grounded reality of Godzilla and Skull Island starting with KOTM, yeah, for sure. It didn't bother me as much as some folks, since I fully expected them to lean into the more "Japanese", over-the-top type of stuff going forward.

Well, the box office tells the tale. Godzilla did pretty great, even despite its huge budget. Skull Island didn't do as well domestically but still pretty good, and somehow did gangbusters everywhere else. KOTM sunk the ship, and Godzilla vs. Kong is just this odd duck in a mid-pandemic world that already probably would have done bad but now? Now maybe HBO Max subscriptions can = revenue enough to make it not fail? I have no idea. Maybe. Godzilla vs. Kong turned out to be way, way cooler on paper (as is, "Yes! I subscribe, to be able to see this movie") than it was in reality.

[Leo656]

The reviews seem kinder for this movie than for KOTM, oddly. That's kinda weird. Because in no way is This One better than Than One.

I don't know if critics are more forgiving right now or just so bored they'll fawn over anything. Could be the latter; I've noticed peoples' scores trending upwards this past few months, just in general.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The reviews seem kinder for this movie than for KOTM, oddly. That's kinda weird.

I don't like to put the Snyder Cut in this category as well (and I don't, personally)... but really. If you're a critic, and there isn't movies for like a year+... you might suddenly not be so apt to crap all over everything as you might have done, even if it deserved it, when you suddenly get to justify your job again. Alternately, if you're a critic that means you love movies (well, that's what it's supposed to mean, even if it's movies that don't align with your current weirdo 2021 identity politics). And there wasn't any "big" ones for a good while. Now there's one. Do you stomp it out even if its brain dead like you did before, or do you maybe... be a little more forgiving? I think they're being a little more forgiving. Unfairly so, in this case, but it computes. And maybe it's a rare case of "good for the goose, is ___" in this way. Maybe. For me? The one-two punch of KOTM and GvK cements that this whole things needs to die, for me.

#1, critics are happy to see more big movies again. #2, they NEED there to be more, so stomping the first one to come out in a year is counter-productive to, y'know, their livelihood.

[Leo656]

Kinda makes sense.

On the "just a fan" side of things, I'm seeing a lot of gushing, too. Which I really don't get. I don't even like/get the whole "It's JUST a kaiju movie, man! Don't expect Characters and Plot to not suck ass!" thing. Like, why not? Other movies in this vein have done it fairly well. "Pacific Rim" was good. "Godzilla" and "Skull island" were very balanced. I even liked KOTM, whereas many people didn't. So it's not like I'm a "hater" or anything. I've been a pretty "easy lay" so far with these movies, generally-speaking.

I don't like or buy the "Plot and Characters Obviously suck in these movies, that's not what matters!" argument/defense. Even if that WERE true - which it isn't; again, other movies HAVE done it well - it doesn't excuse or explain just how bad the script for THIS movie is. I don't expect Shakespeare from this sort of thing but I at least expect not to have my intelligence insulted by sitting through heaps and mounds of some of the worst dialog ever recorded. This movie would play better as a silent film. Because everyone in it except the deaf girl and her Scientist Mom is an insufferable moron.

There's just this very strong kneejerk reaction/defense people are putting out with this movie, implying or flat-out stating that "If you don't like it, you over-think and expect too much." And I really, REALLY don't think that's fair. My "expectations" were simply from the fact that we've already had three movies in a row which - I feel - did a much better job with the material, and that by comparison this one, specifically, sh*t the bed in a lot of ways. I'm not "over-thinking" anything; it's a bad script, poorly-acted. That isn't MY goddamn fault, y'know?

I mean I get why people would WANT to like it; I know I certainly wanted, and even very sincerely expected to like it a LOT more than I did. But I can't ignore the fact that even by "Just a kaiju movie" standards, that movie had a BAD script.

I guess we really are pretty starved for content right now, and that maybe makes people more forgiving. Wish I could be, but I just can't in this case.

[Andrew NDB]

I'm definitely not of the camp that parrots stuff like, "WHO CARES about the human stuff? I'm here for the monster fighting! Why would you care about the human stuff??" Because that's stupid, and for very easy reasoning.

Godzilla (2014) is the only time that kind of thought actually had even a sliver of merit, because I do agree the pendulum could have swung maybe 15% more towards the monster stuff and even therein in that, more towards actually decipherable on-screen monster stuff (and not, you know, BayFormers 1 stuff where it's super close shots, rapid cutting, that sort of thing). The thing is, the human stuff was actually REALLY GOOD in that. They actually cared about it. They hired Bryan F***ing Cranston and put him in every trailer. And he did great.

But yeah. The reality is we're sitting in a theater, or at home, or wherever, watching a 2 hour movie (whether it's KOTM, GvK, etc.) where the actual on-screen monster-vs.-monster footage is like 25% of the movie. The idea that we're just supposed to check out, check our phone, go to the bathroom, take a nap, whatever, in between the monster stuff (you know, the other 75% of the movie) is ridiculous and speaks more of you than of the movie you're talking about. Of these people. Though again, I understand a lot of these people are people who are coming from a place of love from the old Toho movies, so I'm sure for them they already have a head canon of all of those, so who cares about what's in these (as in, it won't replace what's already in your head about "the real Godzilla saga"). Just tune in for the CGI fights, because you already saw your Godzilla/monster marathon in the Toho movies and this is just an encore. Basically.

The human stuff has to be good or the movie isn't. Straight up. Or you're an old Godzilla fan who just doesn't care.

THAT SAID... something like an "Alien vs. Predator" movie -- a SILENT movie -- where it is strictly from the perspective of a Predator or some Predators with absolutely no humans anywhere? Just following one/them, for a movie, as they infiltrate an Alien hive or something. National Geographic style. Maybe there'd be something to that, or a movie like that. I'd love to see that experiment happen. Could be like "Apocalypto." I don't know if it'd work for something like a Kong/Godzilla movie because that tends to involve a lot of interaction with human cities, but maybe a straight-up Hollow Earth movie (which I'm guessing was the hope of where things would go post-KOTM before hope evaporated)?

[AquaParade]

Originally Posted by Leo656

The reviews seem kinder for this movie than for KOTM, oddly. That's kinda weird. Because in no way is This One better than Than One.

I don't know if critics are more forgiving right now or just so bored they'll fawn over anything. Could be the latter; I've noticed peoples' scores trending upwards this past few months, just in general.

Both movies are practically the same in my eyes and there is more going on with these reviews than one might think, for sure.

The whole movie industry critic/pundit/YouTube crowd is so damn bored with a lack of content that they are anxious for anything to fawn over. Outlets need theaters to make money right now or their line of work will become much less relevant. Everyone in the industry wants this movie to succeed for one reason or another.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it, because this was the worst movie I've seen in a few years. And if it weren't for the all powerful notion of subjectivity, I'd be pretty pissed at all those reviews for convincing me to see this dredge.

[IMJ]

Saw it last night. Loved it, thought it was great. Not a perfect movie by any means, but let's face it - it was Kong's movie with sequel follow-up from Godzilla's King of the Monsters plot.

It was fine. It was fun. Loved how it wrapped up. I mean it's ridiculous at every level, but it was super fun and testosterone laden. It was great.

[Last Ronin]

Originally Posted by IMJ

Saw it last night. Loved it, thought it was great. Not a perfect movie by any means, but let's face it - it was Kong's movie with sequel follow-up from Godzilla's King of the Monsters plot.

It was fine. It was fun. Loved how it wrapped up. I mean it's ridiculous at every level, but it was super fun and testosterone laden. It was great.

Oh yeah, my testosterone levels went up the roof, my balls dropped and I grew a stache then later got home by swinging by the trees and climbing my apartment building and thumping my chest then I grabbed a can of spray and a lighter and started beam spamming into the air.

And I swear the woman that were there came out pregnant, I just know it.

[IMJ]

.OMG man -shakes head-

[Powder]

The complaints most of you have lead me to believe none of you like or probably bothered watching the majority of Toho's Godzilla movies. Some of the criticism is valid, sure, & I'm not saying you shouldn't expect "better", either, but just about everything was par the course for this property. This & KOTM both were like love letters to the Heisei/Showa era Godzilla films. Same patterns, pacing, acceleration of absurdity/humor, various plots, expendable characters, exposition dumps, etc. Yeah, the American development teams could have used this opportunity to "right some wrongs" if you wanna look at it that way, but I'm glad that they just put the western spin on tradition rather than taking things too seriously or making us over-invest in the human casts.

[Allio]

As I mentioned before Kaiju can be very versatile, for better or worse. A Kaiju movie can be great for the monster fights, can be great for the human drama (Evangelion for example), some can even be good about mixing human characters and the giant monster fights (Ultraman), or a Kaiju movie works as a horror movie by showing little of the giant monster (Cloverfield.) but the thing is many people have different wants and likes about Kaiju stories what person A loves about one thing, person B hates.

One of my personal favorite Kaiju story right now is Kaiju Girl Caramelise, which is a shout-out series about a girl where when she gets flustered she turns into a Kaiju. Which that series is definitely different from a series called Haikaiju where there is a sense of Escalation going from monsters of Xenomorphs to Godzilla level monsters and even Ultraman non-dimensional monsters.

Clearly human drama really works depending on their connection with the Kaiju (with Evangelion and Ultraman having the humans in the fight) which I find is why Samuel L Jackson’s character in Skull Island and Jia in GVK being the most memorable human characters in these films and why I feel like Godzilla’14 would have worked better with Bryan Cranston’s character living because of his connection with the mutos

If we are going by movie

Godzilla’14- mainly had one major character just surrounded by a bunch of side characters. The scale in this film makes the movie feel smaller and more personal and when Godzilla and bathe Mutos appear it felt like watching Gods. It just sucks that the main character was less compelling than his father.

Skull island- the largest cast, but everyone is kind of one note. But that isn’t a bad thing here. I can’t name but since everyone was their own little cliche (soldier with ptsd, the caring father, the scientist, the crazy guy, the @$$ with a heart) I couldn’t remember their name but I can remember their characters. Sadly they were just a window dressing. I’m reminded of Pacific Rim where characters there were pretty one-note, but their jobs of being in the actual fight is what bumps them up.

King of the Monster - cast is large... but most of everyone feels like props for the fights. The only characters that work is the family, but only the mother has really anything that works with the movie with her redemption tied to ghidorah’s death.

Godzilla vs Kong - only really half the cast works here with Team Kong having any weight as their group fully interacts with King Kong. Team Godzilla feels pointless as they are all only there as they needed a way to reveal Aphex’s group.

Godzilla > GVK > skull island > KoTM


Of course not everyone is going to agree with me, but again, that’s what makes Kaiju stories divisive.

[Andrew NDB]

Originally Posted by Powder

The complaints most of you have lead me to believe none of you like or probably bothered watching the majority of Toho's Godzilla movies.

Doesn't sound like anyone else did, either. As soon as the movies went "full Toho" beginning with KOTM, they stopped making any money.

[Allio]

Well that is the difference between western and eastern audience. It’s like comparing western to eastern horror movies.

It’s like I get the idea of Power Rangers, but I would never want to lose what makes shows like Kamen Rider and Ultraman so good to a “western version”

[sdp]

I thought Godzilla 2014 was great the first time I watched it but the second time I watched it I just didn't care for it. It's ok but I actually think Godzilla 1998 is actually better. Frankly Toho did "realistic" godzilla far better than anyone with Shin Godzilla unlike 2014 which was just boring. It's good they went the cheese route for the monsterverse since they had already lost the realistic approach with a boring film.

Kong Skull Island is pretty good, haven't caught KOTM or GvK yet but as long as they don't take themselves too seriously it'll be fine. the route Kong took seemed better for this universe.

But apparently the movie is doing well? Will they continue the monsterverse?

[Allio]

That’s all going to depend on Toho.

Toho wants to do their own live action films again in a series of movies called “The World of Godzilla” how like the films first were where Rodan and Mothra were their own films before becoming part of Godzilla’s film set.

Though I do hope that Toho and Legendary will come to an agreement to do both. I feel like Toho would be insane to lose a deal where they make so much money on the legendary films by doing nothing, as opposed to doing their own film and they would be limited on the profit they make.