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Old 10-01-2017, 04:22 PM   #21
plastroncafe
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I'm not suggesting it's an intentional call-back, I'm saying it's an unfortunate co-relation that sours the interpretation for me.

And given that the thread is literally asking how I feel about it, I don't think it's taking the question too seriously.

Heck, I didn't even go into it, but some got buttmad anyway.
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:27 PM   #22
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I'm not suggesting it's an intentional call-back, I'm saying it's an unfortunate co-relation that sours the interpretation for me.

And given that the thread is literally asking how I feel about it, I don't think it's taking the question too seriously.

Heck, I didn't even go into it, but some got buttmad anyway.
Too late. I cannot unsee it now. It will take me a while to see Splinter in a different light for a while now. Maybe I'll be over it by Tuesday.

Goddamn you, plastron
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Old 10-01-2017, 04:38 PM   #23
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Too late. I cannot unsee it now. It will take me a while to see Splinter in a different light for a while now. Maybe I'll be over it by Tuesday.

Goddamn you, plastron
You have my apologies for the invasion of your safe space by my opinion on a fictional character. It was not my intent to trigger you and cause you emotional distress.
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:12 PM   #24
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I'm not a huge fan of the Japanese man turning into a rodent origin story.
The character Yuki Sohma from the anime fruits basket turns into a rat. There are anime, manga, and parts of Japanese folklore where Japanese men turn into Nezumi and rat creatures. And being identified as a rat is not a bad or insulting thing for Japanese people, because of the animal's sacred and honored place on the Chinese zodiac. The Japanese view the rat as a quick, cunning, and intelligent animal. And I don't think a few western propaganda pieces from World War II should override an entire culture's centuries long history of identifying clever or cunning individuals in that culture as an intelligent and respected animal.
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:33 PM   #25
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The character Yuki Sohma from the anime fruits basket turns into a rat. There are anime, manga, and parts of Japanese folklore where Japanese men turn into Nezumi and rat creatures. And being identified as a rat is not a bad or insulting thing for Japanese people, because of the animal's sacred and honored place on the Chinese zodiac. The Japanese view the rat as a quick, cunning, and intelligent animal. And I don't think a few western propaganda pieces from World War II should override an entire culture's centuries long history of identifying clever or cunning individuals in that culture as an intelligent and respected animal.
Okay. I'm glad you see it that way.
I don't share that opinion.
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:37 PM   #26
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I don't know. The whole thing just kind of feels like it was originally copied from the comic, but then someone didn't think an origin that relied on three people getting murdered was OK for kids, so it was just sloppily altered.

I mean the basic beats of the comic origin goes like this:
  1. Yoshi flees Japan after he murders Nagi.
  2. Shen and Yoshi are murdered by Saki, so Splinter (the rat) goes down the sewer.
  3. Splinter mutates by touching the ooze covered turtles, which turns all of them into humanoids.

And in the FW show it goes like this:
  1. Yoshi flees Japan after he's accused of a murder attempt.
  2. He (an educated human being) goes down the sewer.
  3. Yoshi mutates by touching the ooze covered turtles, which results in them mutating into identical humanoids while he becomes a rat.

You can sort of tell by how sloppy it is, it was probably going to be the original origin before a re-write.

Edit: And I've said this before, trying to explain how the same localised incident causes four identical transformations and one extremely different one is just jumping through pointless hoops.

But we know that the turtles were not the only creatures he touched. It flat out states that he was LIVING WITH rats as pets and that they were the last animal he had contact with when he touched the mutagen. (And it even shows him stepping in it BEFORE HE EVER TOUCHES THE TURTLES crawling in it.) So it's not sloppy- they explained veey clearly why he ended up a rat.


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I assumed with 2012 (prior to loan rat and cubs ep) that he only went to the sewers after being mutated, I preferred that. I suppose though with being disgraced and more so maybe in hiding may be why he was in the sewers before then in FW.

He was indeed in hiding. Saki had basically framed him for trying to kill a GRANDMASTER. Think about that for a moment. In ninja clans that amounts to not just exile but most likely a death sentance as well. He went into hiding in a place that he hoped would be safe from retribution by the clan. Plus being literally penniless did not help. No resources and no friends- he was royally screwed and he knew it.


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I'm not a huge fan of the FW origin, it's seem rather strange that Yoshi is that easily defeated and thrown out of the clan when he's the rightful inheritor of it knowing the super secret Three-Stooges manouver that's proof of being the next in line for being Head of the Clan.


https://po394.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/jap-trap.jpg

That would have ended the moment he was exiled from the clan though. Yes he had proof of Shredder's plot but unless someone was willing to listen to his side (obviously they were not) then it did not matter that he was the rightful leader. Saki made sure he was thoroughly ousted. And then he added insult to injury by trying to kill him. (Most likely because he realized that leaving him alive might get his plot discovered eventually.)


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The character Yuki Sohma from the anime fruits basket turns into a rat. There are anime, manga, and parts of Japanese folklore where Japanese men turn into Nezumi and rat creatures. And being identified as a rat is not a bad or insulting thing for Japanese people, because of the animal's sacred and honored place on the Chinese zodiac. The Japanese view the rat as a quick, cunning, and intelligent animal. And I don't think a few western propaganda pieces from World War II should override an entire culture's centuries long history of identifying clever or cunning individuals in that culture as an intelligent and respected animal.

Exactly. Rats are considered a sacred animal in the Eastern zodiac and folklore much like many other animals. It would only have been truly an insult if he had been turned into a cat, which is often seen as a demon in Japan.
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Old 10-01-2017, 05:41 PM   #27
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Exactly. Rats are considered a sacred animal in the Eastern zodiac and folklore much like many other animals. It would only have been truly an insult if he had been turned into a cat, which is often seen as a demon in Japan.
Correct, thank you. I wonder if any Japanese TMNT fans would complain about the Yoshi-turned-rat aspect.
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:08 PM   #28
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One thing I liked about FW Splinter was that he didn't try and get revenge on the Shredder unless he happened to be conquering the world and the turtles weren't able to defeat him by themselves.

He was a pretty chill dude, content with his life as a Mutant Rat.
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:09 PM   #29
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One thing I liked about FW Splinter was that he didn't try and get revenge on the Shredder unless he happened to be conquering the world and the turtles weren't able to defeat him by themselves.

He was a pretty chill dude, content with his life as a Mutant Rat.
Weirdly enough, and even when he was offered the chance to go back to being human, he was reluctant to do so, because of all the sensory and reflex advantages he had as a mutant. And when the mutagen cure wore off and he became a mutant rat again, he didn't seem too bothered.
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Old 10-01-2017, 06:16 PM   #30
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One more thing I found interesting about this version of Splinter was that he was actually Shredder's superior.

Pretty different from the common view nowdays of Splinter and Shreddwr being equals.

Splinter did teach Shredder Ninjitsu after all, and was much older by comparison, but still either equalled or surprassed his student in combat (the former most likely due to old age and Shredder's willingness to use Deceptive tactics).

So Shredder in the FW series was never really on the level of Splinter, but more on the level of the turtles, mostly being able to match about 2 turtles in combat consistently throughout the series, but something losing to just 1 or beating all 4 depending on whats conveninent to the plot.

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Old 10-02-2017, 10:27 AM   #31
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One more thing I found interesting about this version of Splinter was that he was actually Shredder's superior.

Pretty different from the common view nowdays of Splinter and Shreddwr being equals.

Splinter did teach Shredder Ninjitsu after all, and was much older by comparison, but still either equalled or surprassed his student in combat (the former most likely due to old age and Shredder's willingness to use Deceptive tactics).

So Shredder in the FW series was never really on the level of Splinter, but more on the level of the turtles, mostly being able to match about 2 turtles in combat consistently throughout the series, but something losing to just 1 or beating all 4 depending on whats conveninent to the plot.
Dunno how "much older". human Splinter didn't really look that old to me. Couldn't be older than 45 or so. It's a bit odd how he needed a walking stick to walk, considering his quick martial art reflexes.

As for Shredder, he looks 32 years old at the very best. He is pretty young.
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So I've watched some of April O'Neil's "videos." They were OK, the lesbian massage ones were the best ones. I skimmed through some of the others, but eh.

I've seen better.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:43 AM   #32
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Here's another question, if the Turtles ended up looking like turtles with a human posture, why didn't Yoshi just get the posture of a rat without the fur and stuff?
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:49 AM   #33
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The worst part of the origin was how they tried to shoehoern Mondo gecko into it with the "HE WAS THERE ALL ALONG!". No he ****ing wasn't.
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So I've watched some of April O'Neil's "videos." They were OK, the lesbian massage ones were the best ones. I skimmed through some of the others, but eh.

I've seen better.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:20 AM   #34
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Here's another question, if the Turtles ended up looking like turtles with a human posture, why didn't Yoshi just get the posture of a rat without the fur and stuff?
I'm still trying to figure out what your question even means.

As for why they didn't have a furless Splinter, it would look hideous.

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Old 10-02-2017, 11:58 AM   #35
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I'm still trying to figure out what your question even means.

As for why they didn't have a furless Splinter, it would look hideous.
If the Turtles look like humans in posture (two legs, two arms, hands etc) but the surface features of turtles (shell, scales, etc), then why don't Splinter look like a rat in posture (four long legs) with the surface features of a human (nose, ears, etc)?

Basically, why don't he look like a shaven rat with a human face? I know that sounds horrifying but that's essentially how the turtles mutated. If they had mutated the way Hamato Yoshi did, then they would be crawling on all fours, have pink skin, lips, noses and possibly tufts of hair on their scalps.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:59 AM   #36
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Lightbulb

Humans are covered in hair though.
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:01 PM   #37
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Humans are covered in hair though.
I cant' grown chest hair to save my life
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So I've watched some of April O'Neil's "videos." They were OK, the lesbian massage ones were the best ones. I skimmed through some of the others, but eh.

I've seen better.
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:07 PM   #38
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I cant' grown chest hair to save my life
Me neither, but that doesn't change the fact that I am in covered in hair.
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:12 PM   #39
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Humans are covered in hair though.
Not nearly as much as rats though.
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Old 10-02-2017, 12:29 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by neatoman View Post
If the Turtles look like humans in posture (two legs, two arms, hands etc) but the surface features of turtles (shell, scales, etc), then why don't Splinter look like a rat in posture (four long legs) with the surface features of a human (nose, ears, etc)?

Basically, why don't he look like a shaven rat with a human face? I know that sounds horrifying but that's essentially how the turtles mutated. If they had mutated the way Hamato Yoshi did, then they would be crawling on all fours, have pink skin, lips, noses and possibly tufts of hair on their scalps.
The best answer I can give is that mutagen was never meant to be intricate on the level you are suggesting.

Its only meant to make a person half animal/half human in a simple way that allowed the writers to come up with cool designs and market toys that would appeal to children.

but if we're going into deep speculation, I'd argue that the turtles don't actually have that many turtle features besides shells and front body plates. Their scales looks more like human skin with a shade of green, their hands feet are much more humanoid than reptilian, and they have human teeth, intelligence, hearing which turtles don't have and they can sweat. Basically, they are more human than turtle because thats who they came in contact with.

In a similar vein, I imagine Splinter would look far more like a rat than a human because of being in contact with rats before mutating, and he does. He pretty much has all the features of a rat besides maybe being able to stand and walk on two legs. Which brings me to my point is that when Mutating, a creature would have some its original features, but mostly gain new features from the animals they come in contact with.

So the turtles have some turtle features, but are mostly human.
Splinter has some human features, but is mostly a rat.
Bebop has some human features, but is mostly a warthog
Rocksteady has some human features, but is mostly a Rhinoceros

And so on.

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