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View Poll Results: The scale
1 15 38.46%
2 4 10.26%
3 4 10.26%
4 4 10.26%
5 6 15.38%
6 3 7.69%
7 2 5.13%
8 1 2.56%
9 3 7.69%
10 6 15.38%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-31-2017, 04:05 AM   #41
Andrew NDB
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Originally Posted by Chabrendeki View Post
Yeah, that's a point. But don't forget, that the cartoon is to a lot of people the definitve version of the Turtles
Screw that, and screw them. They didn't even turn up for the last movie, which was exclusively catered to them.

But before you misread, let's be fair. Hey, screw the Mirage fans, too! Screw all TMNT pre-existing TMNT fans. I'm not even being facetious. It shouldn't be "for" any pre-existing fans. TMNT isn't even that big right now that it can rest on those laurels and again, that didn't even save the last movie.

A new, successful TMNT movie can rise on its own merit. Learn from the mistakes of old, attempt a new reimagining of the core principle of the source material. Try that in a big way, and see what happens. It can't be worse than what they've been doing, I say. The audience will come or it won't... that's more a marketing thing than anything else anyway in the game of trailer cutting and whatnot, and certainly not indicative of a "We need to make it JUST LIKE THIS because this is what worked for toddlers and tweens in the late 80s and early 90s!!" Because that's absurd.

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Let's say so: what is it, that is "intrinsically connected to the TMNT"? Only the four turtles and maybe Splinter. Everything else could be thrown out and be reinvented
I'd go a little further. Turtles, Splinter, circle of vengeance with Saki/Foot, some kind of ooze origin. But sure. And reinvented with care to at least the heart/intent of the source material.
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Old 12-31-2017, 04:22 AM   #42
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Yeah I think we reached a consensus.
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I'd go a little further. Turtles, Splinter, circle of vengeance with Saki/Foot, some kind of ooze origin. But sure. And reinvented with care to at least the heart/intent of the source material.
I get your point, and I have tought about too to include Shredder above. Here is why I didn't: is the Shredder so a focal point in the source material? Yes, he is a key antagonist in some of the best issues, but can we say, that there isn't any TMNT possible without the Shredder?

I would think we have seen this a lot. If we stick to the Shredder, we are stuck to the same story every time. I would say, let's get rid of him. Perhaps in Part 3 he can be introduced, but he is not that intrinsical, as you put it, that he must be there in the first movie (if we are talking about a movie).

One of the more hopeful news about the new cartoon is, that there is no Shredder yet. For me, obviously.
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Old 12-31-2017, 04:32 AM   #43
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I don't want to come off topic by moving onto Shredder (so apologies for that) but I would like to see Shredder used again in whatever reboot, just not at first, so you have something a little different maybe to start and then Shredder comes in a bit later, build up to him.
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Old 12-31-2017, 11:29 PM   #44
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Maybe they were a twee more "serious and aggressive" in the first season, but they certainly were absolutely comedic and childlike even in their first appearances. It's arguably their hallmark "charm." Fine in the Fred Wolf show, radioactive in anything aiming to be taken even semi-seriously.
Whats so comedic and childlike about their season 1 appearances? In that, they don't really crack any jokes, and are portrayed as psychopathic juggernauts who the turtles can't take down via ordinary means.



Its not until season 2 that they start making jokes and become more kid friendly. Even then, they still have a few moments of being serious sprinkled here and there throughout the series, and in season 8, they completely lose their "hallmark charm" as you describe it. Don't get me wrong, I love the comedic aspect of B&R, even more than the serious portrayals,but it is not completely out of character to make future versions dangerous and not silly as there is a precedent.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.

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Old 12-31-2017, 11:55 PM   #45
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It was a kid's show. The whole show was some kind of comedic and childlike (compared to the source material).

That the show went more comedic and childlike for season 2, and that season 1 was perhaps compared to other kid's properties at the same time not so childish, doesn't mean, it wasn't comedic and childlike at all.

But I think B&R wasn't the worst part of the FW-cartoon. For me they are not the cause of the problems of it. I voted with 4 because their stupidity in latter seasons is (and was) kinda boring for me, but I've always seen a lot of potential in the two characters.

So they had some good moments in the Archie comics, I appreciate today, and loved as a kid (eg. opening panels to #12).

[edit] PS.: I think it's a common misunderstandnig serious would mean more strong and more menacing. I mean, the PD B&R are dangerous, but still silly.
Seriousness comes from characterisation in depth. That you can relate with your own problems to something.
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:12 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Chabrendeki View Post
It was a kid's show. The whole show was some kind of comedic and childlike (compared to the source material).

That the show went more comedic and childlike for season 2, and that season 1 was perhaps compared to other kid's properties at the same time not so childish, doesn't mean, it wasn't comedic and childlike at all.
You're talking about the show as a whole, but I'm talking about the villains (Bebop and Rocksteady specifically). I'm not saying that the show wasn't childlike, even in the first season, but most of the comedy in that miniseries focused on the turtles.

The villains in season 1 were relatively straightforward and didn't crack jokes like they did in season 2 onwards. They were still defeated in comedic ways by the turtles but their personalities were not yet developed into what we know them to be today.

I mean, both henchmutants were shown throwing around the turtles after choking them, and Rocksteady even acted pretty serious towards Shredder when he was insulted for not beating the turtles, something he would never do again
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.
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Old 01-01-2018, 01:12 AM   #47
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I'll go beyond this poll and give them a 0, that's right folks a 0.

These two are my least favorite villains ever. I wish they never got revived for the 2012 series or live action films, bah.
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Old 01-01-2018, 02:14 AM   #48
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I'll go beyond this poll and give them a 0, that's right folks a 0.

These two are my least favorite villains ever. I wish they never got revived for the 2012 series or live action films, bah.
So you mean 10 (most terrible)?
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:48 AM   #49
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Yeah I think we reached a consensus.

I get your point, and I have tought about too to include Shredder above. Here is why I didn't: is the Shredder so a focal point in the source material? Yes, he is a key antagonist in some of the best issues, but can we say, that there isn't any TMNT possible without the Shredder?
It isn't him specifically (though he needs to be there), it is what he represents to the TMNT. The circle of vengeance that defines them (for a good while, anyway). Nagi beat up Shen, so Yoshi killed Nagi. Saki killed Shen and Yoshi, so Splinter trained the TMNT to kill Saki. TMNT kill Saki so the Foot swear vengeance on them. The cyclical game of blood that they become readily hip to in "City at War." It's one of the most "real" things that's ever been done with the TMNT ever. You lose Shredder, you don't have that.

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Whats so comedic and childlike about their season 1 appearances? In that, they don't really crack any jokes, and are portrayed as psychopathic juggernauts who the turtles can't take down via ordinary means.

https://cowabloga.files.wordpress.co...ng?w=663&h=499

Its not until season 2 that they start making jokes and become more kid friendly.
Nonsense. Even the first few episodes I can remember them spouting out "funny" stuff and one-liners.
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:28 AM   #50
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Nonsense. Even the first few episodes I can remember them spouting out "funny" stuff and one-liners.
I think you're remembering episode 6 and onwards unless you count lines like "Maybe I should wring your stinking neck", "You just give us another shot pal, and you'll see some squished turtles" and "Those Shell Heads are dead" as comedic one liners.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.

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Old 01-01-2018, 07:13 AM   #51
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I think you're remembering episode 6 and onwards unless you count lines like "Maybe I should wring your stinking neck", "You just give us another shot pal, and you'll see some squished turtles" and "Those Shell Heads are dead" as comedic one liners.
"I wish I had brought some comics", Said by Bebop as he's waiting to get mutated, took less than two minutes for me to find and he's not even a warthog by that point. There are other one liners as well, even if it goes over your head that they were meant to be funny nearly every scene they're in has clear comedic elements to them. The scene you last quoted features very cartoony animation, such as Rocksteady's eyes turning into traffic lights when bonked on the head with traffic lights.

But let's for a moment pretend they weren't comedic characters in the first five episodes, what are they then? They have no agency of their own, they never succeed in anything, their appearences are fairly brief and they don't really drive the plot in any signifigant way. And as we're pretending they're not comedic, what are their personalities? Snarling brutes? Gee, how exciting...
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Turtles is basically the red-headed stepchild of Nick.
Hahahaha!
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Old 01-01-2018, 09:43 AM   #52
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I really only dislike the OotS version of the characters for how beyond juvenile they are, even for B&R standards. The 2k12 version of Rocksteady is probably my favorite version (dislike Bebop) but mostly for being different from the others.

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Old 01-01-2018, 11:34 AM   #53
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"I wish I had brought some comics", Said by Bebop as he's waiting to get mutated, took less than two minutes for me to find and he's not even a warthog by that point. There are other one liners as well, even if it goes over your head that they were meant to be funny nearly every scene they're in has clear comedic elements to them. The scene you last quoted features very cartoony animation, such as Rocksteady's eyes turning into traffic lights when bonked on the head with traffic lights.

But let's for a moment pretend they weren't comedic characters in the first five episodes, what are they then? They have no agency of their own, they never succeed in anything, their appearences are fairly brief and they don't really drive the plot in any signifigant way. And as we're pretending they're not comedic, what are their personalities? Snarling brutes? Gee, how exciting...
Nothing about that comics line really sounded like an attempt at humour to me. If you read my earlier posts, you would see that I acknowledged that Bebop and Rocksteady in season 1 were defeated in comedic ways but I never found them funny at that point, it was mainly the turtles cracking the jokes until season 2 when the villains starting attempting their own wisecracks.

The only moments with the villains I found funny in season 1 are a few of Shredder's lines like "Tonight I dine on turtle soup", "You might struggle to find a date on Saturday Night", "It feels so good to be so bad", and "I don't wanna conquer this place, I wanna conquer Earth!" but those still much fewer jokes than what Shredder would do in later seasons. Also, Shredder didn't change as drastically as B&R in the transition from season 1 to 2 and it still doesn't negate my point about Bebop and Rocksteady themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I like the FW villains more in season 1 without their usual comedy routine (I find their lack of comedy to be bland infact), but I am merely defending the idea that a serious version of Bebop and Rocksteady is not something completely out of the blue with no basis in any of their original appearances. Snarling brutes can be quite fitting in a more serious setting and be potentially very interesting in my opinon, especially since they won't be defeated in comedic ways and are allowed to be more violent than what a kids show would allow.
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The biggest villains were the censors. What they could do without being held back is my question. Shredder could've done more than blow up the Channel Six building. I don't mean as far as murdering Splinter, but think of the possibilities if censors were not an issue. Shredder and Krang combined had the biggest arsenal of any villains in all of the cartoons.

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Old 01-01-2018, 12:01 PM   #54
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If Bebop/Rocksteady appear in the 2018 show I wonder what they'll be like. I don't think they'll continue with Russian Rocksteady or laser break-dancing Bebop like in Nick, but make them more into street punks again.

Oh well as long as Bebop is a black man with a purple mohawk, all is well.
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Old 01-01-2018, 09:30 PM   #55
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Oh well as long as Bebop is a black man with a purple mohawk, all is well.
..... guess you're not gonna change in 2018, are you?
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:21 PM   #56
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So I don't think just because their source is in the FW cartoon, this two guys are bad characters. That would be a bit prejudiced.
They're far from bad characters and I tend to find people who don't like them generally don't think much of the cartoon series either.

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If one were to follow Crisler's Law, I suppose.
Speaking of Crisler's Law which you like to quote all the time, a user at Den of Geek recently tried to convince me that I take Star Wars too seriously because I dislike what Disney and current Lucasfilm have done to the franchise. Well apparently at the end of the day I'll always have the original trilogy which kinda misses the point I'm trying to get through to him about (shrugs shoulders).

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Screw that, and screw them. They didn't even turn up for the last movie, which was exclusively catered to them.
I'm a fan of the cartoon, I went to see it and it was nothing like the 80s cartoon.

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But let's for a moment pretend they weren't comedic characters in the first five episodes, what are they then? They have no agency of their own, they never succeed in anything, their appearences are fairly brief and they don't really drive the plot in any signifigant way. And as we're pretending they're not comedic, what are their personalities? Snarling brutes? Gee, how exciting...
I think you're asking too much from these characters. B & R are bumbling but dangerous henchmen. Unless you attach yourself to the cartoon as in enjoy it you aren't going to enjoy the characters. Season 1 clearly showed they could be violent and dangerous. They're dumb? Well what did you expect, they're a gang of lowlives. You can't expect them to be geniuses.

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Even then, they still have a few moments of being serious sprinkled here and there throughout the series, and in season 8, they completely lose their "hallmark charm" as you describe it. Don't get me wrong, I love the comedic aspect of B&R, even more than the serious portrayals,but it is not completely out of character to make future versions dangerous and not silly as there is a precedent.
Spot on. They're supposed to be those characters. It's like asking for an adaptation of Shredder that is a good guy.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:41 AM   #57
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I give them a 5. They aren't great and they aren't intolerably bad, they are just 'OK.'

Reason is, they aren't bad characters but I do think the 'stupidity for comedy' kind of hurts them. It often gets overused to an annoying extent, to the point it can make one wonder why Shredder still keeps them around.

The other thing is that they can feel over-included. Nick didn't need them, it already had it's own set of henchmen. Problem is, there were nostalgic fans that demanded them, and so Nick added them. It wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't overshadow the original henchmen, but they did, and whatever unique badassery those guys might have developed took a backseat to these two.

I do think they can be fun though, but they should not be used every time Shredder needs some henchmen. That gets old, which was what I'd been feeling for a while. Plus they sorely need to be updated, they don't have to be bumbling throwbacks to the 80's all the time, they can evolve. It wouldn't be so bad if they have an animal origin, or wore modern fashion, or if they were fully competent (and not bumbling manchildren) and used dark comedy rather then goofy jokes.

For right now though, they need to be shelved for a while. Shredder needs to get some new henchmen and TMNT needs to not be afraid to try new stuff. Otherwise it just looks like it can't move on past the Fred Wolf series or Mirage stories and tries to rely too much on fan nostalgia to keep it going.

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Old 01-12-2018, 10:15 AM   #58
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If Bebop/Rocksteady appear in the 2018 show I wonder what they'll be like.
If? C'mon. There's 0% chance they won't be there. Get ready for a new Beebop and Rocksteady origin!
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Old 09-20-2018, 08:13 PM   #59
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Only a 2. Then again, thatís due to the varying writing quality of this episodic show.
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