tmnt and religio-spirituality

[heretic888]

tell me..... what do you guys think the tmnt are involved in religiously??

im inclined to think they are Buddhist of some sort, in that they were raised by a Japanese... perhaps with a rich smattering Tantra, Shinto, and Taoism with the Buddha Dharma.

what do you think???

[Skeletoncrew]

I'd say that they're all finding their own ways. In some ways I think they may have trouble relating to human religion. Especially with creation myths. Humans are often put on the top of the heap in those stories, how would a turtle feel about that? I don't think Raph would like to be told that any species has dominion over him.

[Lanagirl]

I think that turtles are buddhists... But i can't say they are following their Dharma to become human next life:-) I'm joking.
By the way:Is shredder american or japanese? And where is his father?
His brother's name is not Oroku Nagi in the cartoon though. I'm afraid to make a mistake but in russian version i heard Kacu Osaki-sounds very strange
oh those russian translations:-)))))

[Serena]

By the way:Is shredder american or japanese?
Shredder's an Asian guy. :)

[Kali]

I agree with SC, that they are trying to find their own way. They probably learned from the religions mentions, but as with everything they had, it probably had to be adapted to fit their situation.

Then again, I'm not relgious myself, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[heretic888]

"I'd say that they're all finding their own ways. In some ways I think they may have trouble relating to human religion. Especially with creation myths. Humans are often put on the top of the heap in those stories, how would a turtle feel about that? I don't think Raph would like to be told that any species has dominion over him."
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But, you have to take into account that several religions, such as Buddhism and some forms of Hinduism, are experiential in nature and the most popular form of religion, such as Islam and Christianity, is based on blind, unquestioning belief. "Relating to" a religion wouldnt be a problem if it is based on experiential processes. And, like I said, the Turtles are most likely Buddhists of some kind.

Humans are only usually 'put on top' in the Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman religions. This is not the case in most indigenous and Asian systems of belief. Besides, in a lot of those religions, human beings are 'put on top' because we have a more highly developed/evolved consciousness. This advanced consciousness would apply to the turtles as well, so they too would be 'put on top' because of their humanoid awareness/intelligence.

I doubt Raphael would like ANY religion whatsoever because he is mostly egocentric in reference and wouldnt like anything requiring disciplined concentration (such as meditation) or sociocentric subservience (such as 'following the church').
---------------------------------
"I think that turtles are buddhists... But i can't say they are following their Dharma to become human next life"
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The goal of Buddhism is to transcend the Wheel of Dharma not to 'get promoted' in it. :P Seriously though, the Turtles probably are Buddhists.
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"By the way:Is shredder american or japanese? And where is his father?"
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Oroku Saki is a native of Japan, yes. His brother (in mirage) is Oroku Nagi. Saki's father is never named or mentioned in any tmnt universe.....

[HorseTechie]

The canon Mirage TMNT I see as beleive in Confucianism... or what ever popular belief that Hamaoto Yoshi and Splinter had. Could also might have been Shintoism, the native religion of Japan. Shintoism is a worship of the gods in Nature. It can appear to be like Buddhism in the ways they worship. But since I hadn't seen Splinter or the Turtles possess a shrine, I'd say they are followers of Confucius. This teaches a moral philosophy and code of behavior based on peace, order, humanity, courage, wisdom, and fidelity. Confucius refused to consider the question if there is a God, but his believers state now of a heavenly harmony which one can attain by nurturing virtues of Knowledge, Patience, Sincerity, Obedience, and the Fulfillment of Obligations between children and parents, subjects and ruler.

Then later during City at War, Leo was leaning toward Buddism and Zen concepts. And Don... he was contemplating God. Nothing was said, but you're left wondering if he was for or against.

Fanfics, on the other hand... :evilgrin: Boy, I have fun there...

[heretic888]

i dont think so.......

The concepts and principles you refer to are pretty much common to ALL Asian belief systems, particularly martial arts. The philosophical/spiritual backdrop of higher martial arts in Japan is referred to as budo (martial way) and for the ninja it is referred to as ninpo.

Besides, the idea that 'in all the universe, change is the only constant' is specifically Taoist and Buddhist in nature in that it seems to be advocating achieving formless consciousness and natural sponataneous adaptability.... not following a set of rules as seen in Cofucianism and bushido.

And, during the City at War story-arch the major theme was of growing PAST restriciting rules and laws..... both Splinter's 'cannibalism' and the turtles' allying with Karai demonstrated this..... the idea of transcending the sociocentric level altogether.... that is most definitely not Confucianist in nature. Besides, the Turtles (with the possible exception of Leonardo) never really seemed to me as guys that would just shut up and follow the status quo.

And besides, Confucians dont meditate......

[HorseTechie]

Okay... I see Leo and Splinter being THE Buddhists. Those two do more things, but I don't see them also carry prayer beads or worship to a shrine regularly to be fully deticated Buddhists. The other turtles seem less as such, with Raph being the least religious. That's MY opinion on the matter, since in reality I really think the creators just used a mish-mash of popular asian beliefs for this.

Yes, Confuscianism is more of a way of living, and not truly a religion. My husband grew up in a Buddhist family, but yet they also believed in the way of Confucious too. At least this is how it is for Korean and Chinese buddhists.

I also I didn't say City at war was Confuscius in idealology. I was referring to the way they lived in the movies and the early comics. For City at War, I was pointing out Leo's growing interest in Zen there. No reason to get yourself worked up in a knot about it. *shrug*

Splinter: You will listen now. My master Yoshi's first rule was: "Possess the right thinking. Only then can one receive the gifts of strength, knowledge, and peace." I have tried to channel your anger, Raphael. But more remains. Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy....

Splinter: I am proud of you, my sons. Tonight you have learned the final and greatest truth of the ninja...that ultimate mastery comes not of the body...but of the mind. Together, there is nothing your four minds cannot accomplish. Help each other...draw upon one another. And always remember the true force that bonds you, the same as that which brought me here tonight...that which I gladly return with these words: I love you all, my sons.

[heretic888]

"Okay... I see Leo and Splinter being THE Buddhists. Those two do more things, but I don't see them also carry prayer beads or worship to a shrine regularly to be fully deticated Buddhists. The other turtles seem less as such, with Raph being the least religious. That's MY opinion on the matter, since in reality I really think the creators just used a mish-mash of popular asian beliefs for this."
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Leonardo is probably the most 'religious' (dealing with sociocentric belief and subservience to an 'order' or 'law' or 'code') in the sense you are referring to; Michelangelo being the most 'spiritual' (dealing with personal intuitive sensitivity and compassion and the 'transcension' of rules). Raphal is most definitely the least religious AND the least spiritual (being pre-conventional and largely ego-centric in reference), however.

The Buddhism with 'prayer beads' and 'worship to a shrine' that you are referring to is a form of popular, layman Buddhism. Its mostly to provide conciliatory services (in this respect it is very similar to many forms of Christianity) to the largely ignorant masses. "True" Buddhism, however, involves meditative awareness and the evolution of consciousness. The Turtles and Splinter do not seemed to be involved in popular Buddhism, but rather the meditative form.

In reality, I think the creators researched extensively when they created the characters and storyline and it shows in many respects. You may notice that in the second and first issues, some of the books shown in the lair include Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (big Taoist influence), Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" (more Taoism), Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" (Taosim incarnate), Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" (a good Buddhist/Taoist martial resource) and one of Stephen Hayes "Ninja" book series (mostly Tantric Buddhist teachings with some elements of Taoism). Splinter's teachings appear more Zen/Taoist than anything else. And, like I said, Confucians dont meditate. :P
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"Yes, Confuscianism is more of a way of living, and not truly a religion."
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Confucianism is a set of rules and beliefs intended to encourage social harmony and order. Buddhism and Taoism, in their 'true' forms, are not concerned with rules or beliefs but rather the evolution of consciousness via meditative practice. You dont have to beleive in a deity or god to be a 'religion'. Confucianism and Marxism are both religions, for example, where Taoism and Buddhism (in their true forms) are not.
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"I also I didn't say City at war was Confuscius in idealology. I was referring to the way they lived in the movies and the early comics. For City at War, I was pointing out Leo's growing interest in Zen there."
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The way the Turtles lived during the early comics was a stage of development. They were, on the whole, mostly geared towards obeying a set of rules and codes Splinter set forth. It wasnt necessarily Confucian in nature, although there was undoubtedly Confucian influences in the philosophy. In ninpo, this is referring to as the 'omote' level of development, meaning 'outer' or 'shown'.

Later, however, the ninjutsu initiate learns to grow past restricting laws and rules altogether to true spontaneous right action (as it is called in Zen). This is referred to as the 'ura', which means 'inner' or 'hidden', level of development. Both levels take about 20 years to learn (so during City at War the Turtles were beginning to learn the ura level).

I am speaking about the Turtles as a whole here. Michelangelo, for example, however is a bit more postconventional and 'spiritual' than his other brothers so he didnt show as much growth during the City at War storyarch. Leonardo (and to a lesser degree, Donatello), being the most conventional and sociocentric, showed the most change. Raphael never really grasped conventional/sociocentric levels to begin with, so he never could really reach the postconventional.

I should add that Leonardo is more "Buddhist" in words and ideals... whereas Michelangelo is more "Buddhist" in thinking and behavior. One is more 'religous' and one is more 'spiritual'
------------------------------
"Splinter: You will listen now. My master Yoshi's first rule was: "Possess the right thinking. Only then can one receive the gifts of strength, knowledge, and peace." I have tried to channel your anger, Raphael. But more remains. Anger clouds the mind. Turned inward, it is an unconquerable enemy....

Splinter: I am proud of you, my sons. Tonight you have learned the final and greatest truth of the ninja...that ultimate mastery comes not of the body...but of the mind. Together, there is nothing your four minds cannot accomplish. Help each other...draw upon one another. And always remember the true force that bonds you, the same as that which brought me here tonight...that which I gladly return with these words: I love you all, my sons."
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These quotes by Splinter are pretty much common to all higher martial arts, Confucian or not. 'Right thinking' is a specifically Buddhist concept (it is part of the nobel Eightfold path). Disciplining the mind is almost universal among the martial arts (especially so in ninpo). The 'force' which binds them is alien to Confucianism, but well known among more 'internal' martial arts. In Japanese it is usually referred to as kotsu (essence) or ki (spirit). It is what motivates, guides, protects, and binds all spiritual
warriors.
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laterz

[HorseTechie]

:goofygri:

Has anyone told you, you'd make a good lawyer?

[heretic888]

you're the first. :wink:

[Kali]

I think you sound like a text book. :D *ducks baps*

[heretic888]

i'll take that as a compliment and assume you're saying im smart.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[HorseTechie]

Well.. ya sure like to argue a point into the ground, with supporting evidence. :wink:

In all honesty, I actually do agree with the bit that Mike has spiritual potentual.

While I like to stay true to TMNT form in my fanfics, I also like to take their personality and expand on it a little more. Since I'm a Christian, and more familar with it's background than Buddhism... I had reasoned with myself how I could make Mike a someone interested in Chrisitanity. It seemed like an odd thing to other people, that Mike of all of them would go in that direction. But they are only considering his superfical side.

But Mike's not 100% sure about it yet in my fanfic. He's just looking into the Bible, to get ideas on the war of the angels for a story he was writing there. Then it would confuse him. Many of these religious are designed for Human kind, or bent on conquest. No say about animals (like in Zulli's excellent triology). Do they even have the soul, or the chance to also be saved or enlightened by a higher power?

And what is truth, myth, or acceptable? I planned to have Mike then look into Christian history, to understand better the turmoild of evil against good. About the Crusade and martyring. About how Japan was strongly against the missionaries. And then Mike's apprehension of admitting to Splinter he was interested in Christianity.. but feared that Splinter would later betray him.

Then I have my FourHorse man supernatural theory that the whole story is based off of. Damn.. I'll admit I get headaches trying to reason out that theory so it all ties in with Buddhism and martial arts law, etc. :dead:

[GreenWillow]

~Methinks Heretic has done his homework.

Heretic wrote: In reality, I think the creators researched extensively when they created the characters and storyline and it shows in many respects. You may notice that in the second and first issues, some of the books shown in the lair include Bruce Lee's "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (big Taoist influence), Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" (more Taoism), Lao Tzu's "Tao Te Ching" (Taosim incarnate), Miyamoto Musashi's "Book of Five Rings" (a good Buddhist/Taoist martial resource) and one of Stephen Hayes "Ninja" book series (mostly Tantric Buddhist teachings with some elements of Taoism). Splinter's teachings appear more Zen/Taoist than anything else. And, like I said, Confucians don't meditate. icon_razz.gif

~I remember turning the comic sideways and reading all those titles on the bookshelf in #2 and thinking "Oh, wow....these guys know their schtuff!"
And of course, recall in the new TMNT comic that Mike was ribbing Leo about having read _The _Art of_ War_ 20 times or something....
I know several fanfic authors have tried to work one or more turtles into Christanity somehow, but I just don't see how they get there. The "species-centricism" (?) of the "book" religions (Judaism, Islam and Christianity) pretty much rules out any hope of "salvation" for non-humans. All the "beasts" exist only to serve Mankind in that paradigm. Well, so do the women, but that's another issue ...<ducks baps>

Anyway, yeah. What Heretic said. :wink:

~GW

[GreenWillow]

And, during the City at War story-arch the major theme was of growing PAST restriciting rules and laws..... both Splinter's 'cannibalism' and the turtles' allying with Karai demonstrated this..... the idea of transcending the sociocentric level altogether.... that is most definitely not Confucianist in nature. Besides, the Turtles (with the possible exception of Leonardo) never really seemed to me as guys that would just shut up and follow the status quo.

.

~YES! Everyone was changed by the end. But Leo also challenged his own beliefs in City at War. He was the first to accept Karai as a potential ally -- an expediant move perhaps, but certainly a sign he was letting go of the blood feud and battle for Honor which had informed their entire existence from day one. When Raphael asked him "What about Honor?" he said something very uncharacteristic like, "I'm not sure there is any place for Honor in this world." (That may not be the exact quote, but it's close) And he also tells his brothers that he'd gladly die for Splinter, but he's not sure he is willing to give him his life.
That's *growth*, folks! :P

~GW

[heretic888]

Your fanfiction sounds like a very interesting read, but I must add that Michelangelo, as the most developed out of the four of them, would probably be the least interested in a dogmatic religion that defines itself on proper belief (such as mainline Christianity or Islam) as opposed to an experiential religion concerning a deepening of oneself (such as Buddhism or Tantra). Out of the four of them, Leonardo would be the most likely candidate for Christendom (although he would probably refuse it due to his upbringing).

The animal vs humans thing would also prove a difficulty fo Mike. That is also probably why he would be more likely to embrace a Buddhism or Taoism philosophy, because "all things are buddha things". That includes turtles. In most forms of Christianity, turtles dont even have souls.

If Michelangelo was to embrace a form of Christianity, it would most likely be some form of mysticism or Gnosticism. He would probably find more inspiration in the writings of John of the Cross or Meister Eckhart as opposed to the synoptics or the myths of the old testament and revelations. He might also have an affinity for the AUTHENTIC letters of Paul (such as Galatians and Romans, as opposed to Timothy and Titus), which mostly deal with spiritual experience as opposed to religous laws ("The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life").

The four horseman tie-in is interesting though..... keep going...

[heretic888]

Wow, GW you noticed the books just like I did, neh? :P

I am inclined to agree with your ideas about Christianity and the TMNT. The 'beasts' serve mankind in the Bible, nothing any of the turtles are inclined to agree to....

Your thoughts about Leonardo seem to be right-on, GW. Becuase Leo was primarily at the sociocentric level, he received the most character growth with the City at War theme of throwing off restrictions. Michelangelo grew probably the least in that he was probably already at a postconventional level to begin with, so a 'throwing off rules' theme would have the least to offer him. Unfortunately, Mike is often depicted as a background character and this level of his growth is rarely addressed (something Laird should work on, methinks.....)

Alas, poor Raphael never really entered the sociocentric level to begin with so he received little in the way of growth. I really dont want to piss anybody off by saying this, but Raphael would receive the most growth if he would just be a little bit more like Leo: disciplined, conformist, and sociocentric. Only after embracing sociocentrism and conventionalism can one hope to transcend it (like Mike and, to a lesser degree, Don have).

I loved the City at War.... deep.......

[HorseTechie]

Ack... just make it harder for me to get this story finsihed, will ya? :P

Actually, I had Don thinking in the way as you described as for Mike. But that's me... since I had seen more Mirage referances of Don possibly contemplating that mre than the others. (Twilight of the Ring and Mirage Vol 2) The reasoning I had for Mike being the way I imagined him, was from a near death experience from a previous story. So in a sense, he's out of Logical Mirage Context by the time this present fic I'm speaking of comes along.

As far a Leo goes, yeah, I agree. I have read a fic by an adult fan, Aignatious, that shown her unique view of Leo in the future. He had a son that was into Christianity (Seth) visit him... and then his deeper insanities come out. Very intriqueing.

I also have many answers for the forementioned questions I posed above. Romans 10:10-14... this implies that it doesn't matter if you are human, as long as you have a soul that confesses your acceptiance and obedience to Christ. Other answers I'm not admitting here... cause then that'll just ruin the plot! :wink: :P

As for the four horseman theory.. yes. I am stuck in finding a believable theory for this. I wasn't comparing them to the beasts though. But to the four archangelic riders that represent famine, pestilence, war, and the false messiah (antichrist). I named the four Turtles with one of these... and then I speculated that they are like a spirit in a spirit. When they die a supernatural way, they become one of theses dreaded demons.

That was my first idea... it's changing now, the more I think of it. I may just end up making this a crossover with the Lord of the Rings concept. Just have an omnipresent evil that is taking over the world... and it craves especially the TMNT, for they possess a special something the evil wants back.

Yeah.. something like that... :goofygri:

[GreenWillow]

Wow, GW you noticed the books just like I did, neh? :P


~Hai, soo desu ne...Perhaps those of us who are interested in transpersonal psych have a natural tendency to turn whatever they are reading sideways? :P
Gives ya a different perspective.....

Oh, and HT, that's pretty interesting where you are going with your writing-- we seem to be convergng on at least one concept (Should be fun-- since you and I are often so diametrically opposed philosophically-- to see how we each look at this "Evil" thing) Let me know when you get more written, ok? .

~GW

[HorseTechie]

Sure GW.

(And people think I'm merely contemplating the word of God during Bible Study. :P )

[GreenWillow]

~Heheh... :twink:

~GW

[HorseTechie]

Yeah.. and from this, comes interesting things like Dogma, The Seventh Sign, The Prophecy, Ghostbusters, etc... so much wicked fun. :evilgrin:

[heretic888]

Donatello, I believe, is probably the most philosophical and idealistic of the brothers (in the postconventional sense, anyway). Personally, although I enjoy the TMNT stories written by others, I dont tend to regard them as protraying the 'authentic' characters unless written by Eastman and/or Laird (that's basically 1-12, 19-21, and 48-62 of volume 1, the Tales of the TMNT series, volume 2 to a lesser degree, and the newly created volume 4). Thus, even on truly intriguing storyarchs such as Twilight of the Rings, I do not usually tend to regard them as expressing the 'real' Mike or the 'real' Don.

Regardless, Donatello is still the most philosophical and idealistic of the four in my opinion. Michelangelo, however, is the most spiritual I believe. By 'spiritual' i am referring more to a state of consciousness and mode of identity-reference, as well as source of personal motivation. In other words, Mike doesnt necessarily have to talk about 'being spiritual' in order to have a large level of spiritual development. It shines through in his words, actions, and thoughts (when the thoughts are actually revealed, that is). He is clearly the most postconventional, selfless, and compassionate of the four. And this all does not seem to come from a system of rules, beliefs, or ideals such as that demonstrated by Leo or Don, but out of Mike's own nature. It's the difference of being 'moral' and 'spiritual' because you have to think about it (Leo and Don) and being 'moral' and 'spiritual' because it is your own spontaneous nature. In Zen, it is called 'sponataneous right action' and sometimes 'mushin' or 'no-mind'.

The near-death experience angle is interesting for Michelangelo. I think he is the one most likely to experience a peak experience as well (due to his high level of development). But, you may want to consider that a peak experience involving Judeo-Christian imagery might not necessarily invovle the mythic-literal interpretation most Christians would give it. Beings and gods experienced in visions are in fact 'archetypes', symbols for one's own very Self. Perhaps you could tie that into the story, that Mike comes to realize that the Christ persona he experiences is a symbol for his own potential. Just a thought...

Seth, Leo's insane fundamentalist son?? My... how.... biblical. :D

That quote from Romans is interesting, but I still believe Michelangelo would find it exceedingly difficult to simply 'beleive' and 'obey' a mythic figure just because a book in front of him tells him to. An extreme religiosity for Biblical religion would be a regression for Mike's character, nor a progression.....

The four horseman theory is still interesting.... the tmnt battled the four horseman (and won!) in the Archie tmnt.. you might want to use that as source material or inspiration. I beleive each of them supposedly aligned with a horseman: Leo=Death, Don=War, Raph=Pestilince, and Mike=Famine. Then again, i might have that wrong.....

[/quote]

[HorseTechie]

The four horseman theory is still interesting.... the tmnt battled the four horseman (and won!) in the Archie tmnt.. you might want to use that as source material or inspiration. I beleive each of them supposedly aligned with a horseman: Leo=Death, Don=War, Raph=Pestilince, and Mike=Famine. Then again, i might have that wrong.....

Heh... I have heard of that one too.. but still have yet to find the issue to read. *sai*

It's a tougher call pairing the TMNT to the four horsemen than the elements or horoscope. I have it figured as Don=Death (who is also Cyborg Don in my fic), Leo=Justice (aka Famine/Pestilence), Raph=War, and Mike=the False Messiah.

[heretic888]

Mike the Antichrist, eh?? interesting.....

I have tried to align the tmnt to the four elements or different elemental chakra levels, and it doesnt really seem to work. It seems to me that Raph is something of a water/fire hybrid; Leo is a fire/wind hybrid; Don is wind (but open to some elements of earth); and Mike is a fifth elemental (because he seems to include traits from ALL four elements and seems to transcend their 'lower' manifestations [example: negative of earth is stubborness and close-mindedness]). Splinter also seems to be a fifth elemental.

gah, i dunno.....

[HorseTechie]

*lol* Why not...? Mike is rather charismatic. :P Or this... you are a Mikey fan, and then, look at your quote. World domination does seem to be a thing amongst you guys. (FOGU, Mangos, caffeine... ) :wink:

Though, I was baffled with the pairing of Don to War in Archie, since he's the pacifist. Unless they were going by 'opposites attract' there. But that's the thing... the guys are not exactly the perfect stereotypes that many versions make them out to be.

[heretic888]

i really dont think the tmnt line up that well to the four horseman. even in four element/zodiac systems the turtles are defined that well, primarily because one of them, Michelangelo, is closest to the fifth element than anything else. Thats the point, i think. The turtles are NOT stereotypes and they are NOT any kind of metaphoric archetype. They are in-depth, unique characters.

[GreenWillow]

~Well, no, neither a fictional character, nor any RL person, IS an archetype. An archetype is a thought form that exists in the collective unconscious- something we alll share cross-culturally which is why certain themes recur across all cultures in folklore and myths. But I think that certain characters or people stir our unconscious recognition of those forms. Examples: John F. Kennedy (the Good King--or King Arthur of Camelot), Marilynn Monroe(the innocent seductress). The Beatles, the four core StarTrek characters were both quaternities, and in the case of Kirk, Spock, Bones and Scotty their elemental aspects were obvious. Superman is another King Arthur image--representing the status quo, while Spiderman was a misunderstood Anti-Hero, and arrived on the scene at the birth of the 60's, (and the fall of "Camelot") heralding a cultural revolution.
And while I also really like Ken Wilbur, his analysis of psychospiritual growth is but one of many systems, and like all of them, purely theoretical. These are models to work from to help us understand our interior landscape, but just like the the lines delineating different nations on a map, they don't really exist. It's just a tool for communicating ideas.
Have you studied the Enneagram, Heretic? I actually find that system more useful than many because the types dovetail so sweetly into the DSM IV, you can actually use it as a diagnostic tool.
I'm thinking Raph is an Eight point, Leo a Three (or a One, haven't really decided), Mike a perfect Seven, and Donatello a Five..... No ranking in terms of spiritual development here-- each has their own challenges and virtues.

~GW (as everyone else mutters, "what the hell is she talking about...?")

[HorseTechie]

:blanksta:

Yeah... all the more reason why I'm going with a Lord of the Rings theme for Higure.

[GreenWillow]

~Because of the heavy archetypal content?
I read somewhere that the Great Evil --Sauron and his minions -- was largely based on Hitler and the rising power of the Nazi Party.
Today we get our Dark Lords out the Middle East. From the purely symbolic standpoint-- (and maybe specifically for North America and Northern and Western Europe) these guys all have the same function:
The Shredder
Darth Vader
Adolf Hitler
Osama Bin Ladin
Lex Luthor
Satan
Saddham Hussein
Sauron
(My own Alexander Skylord :evilgrin:)
The Boogie Man.....

~GW... (apologies to anyone of Middle Eastern descent or nationality-- I'm speaking from a Western culture perspective, not judging anyones' actual politics)

[HorseTechie]

(Oo.. you forgot Megatron too ;p )

True... though, I really wasn't saying that Mike to be like the False Messiah equals him as being an evil Anti-Christ in that sense. I was thinking more along the lines of the disguised crusader, who strikes silently and reruits many without them not even knowing it. Like how the entertainment industry today is making many think it's cool for teenagers to submit to sex, violence, and drugs... subliminal messages. But of course, then the biggest political debate starts all over again on who's standard of morals the country should best take after.

But relax... I wasn't going to make him that kind of malevoilent spirit. Just saying it usually takes the charisma and appeal he has to make an effective evil lord (cause the ones that act like outright SOB's get knocked off quicker)

[GreenWillow]

~Ohh--like an accidental helper of the Dark Side? Remember that one pic at the end of the Vol 2 run, with Mike wearing a gold chain and looking like some entertainment mogul-- big producer or something... those pics were supposed to be like sneak peeks into a (possible?) future. Media mogul leading the innocent children astray...heh
I was thinking about them when someone here--Karpo I think-- mentioned that he couldn't imagine the TMNT fighting with Splinter and of course there is that one pic of a very defeated (dead???) Splinter and a bloodied Turtle standing in front of him....

~GW

[HorseTechie]

YES! :evilgrin:

Or something like that. But you'll also find the lastest chapters of Sean's Legacy fic going along these devilish lines too. *goes off to plug*

[GreenWillow]

~OH oh! I've fallen behind on that since I was trying to read all those others. Cool!
Also will help keep me distracted from what I've decided I HAVE to be doing today which is writing! :goofygri:
Ok, I am writing, but boy, can I find ways to distract myself-- like these dern forums!


~GW...home alone with no kids for a few hours...ahhhhhh.....

[heretic888]

And while I also really like Ken Wilbur, his analysis of psychospiritual growth is but one of many systems, and like all of them, purely theoretical. These are models to work from to help us understand our interior landscape, but just like the the lines delineating different nations on a map, they don't really exist. It's just a tool for communicating ideas.


Perhaps theory, but unlike some other systems, KW's has a whole assload of empirical evidence supporting it!!! :D They dont exist in the external, physical sense--- but that is not to say they are imaginary. I find it rather odd that all of creation seems to follow an evolutionary growth pattern that 'doesnt exist'.

Have you studied the Enneagram, Heretic? I actually find that system more useful than many because the types dovetail so sweetly into the DSM IV, you can actually use it as a diagnostic tool.
I'm thinking Raph is an Eight point, Leo a Three (or a One, haven't really decided), Mike a perfect Seven, and Donatello a Five.....

No, i havent studied the system you are referring to. Could you clarify it a bit, or direct me to a site or resource that does??? What does a 'perfect seven' and all that mean exactly???? I am intrigued.....

No ranking in terms of spiritual development here-- each has their own challenges and virtues.

Well, there IS a ranking in spiritual development. Some people ARE more developed than others. I, for example, am less developed than, say, the Dalai Lama but more developed than a five year old. This is NOT to say that some people are instrinsically better than others, only that some people have realized more of their psychological potential than others and are more 'awake'. All lives have equal worth, though.

as everyone else mutters, "what the hell is she talking about...?

heh, welcome to the club, babe. :P

[GreenWillow]

~Well, one of the best references is Mary Palmer's _The_ Enneagram_, but I found a pretty good website here: http://www.lessons4living.com/enneagram.htm

And a simple overview of the individual points here: http://www.lessons4living.com/overview.htm

Click on a number to read the type. What's nice about the Enneagram is that it takes into account ones level of development, so one can be a highly evolved version, or still struggling with very basic issues, in any of the points. It's an ancient system, supposedly originally based upon the Seven Deadly Sins plus two more. It was revived in the past 100 years by a couple of Catholic monks, and G.I. Gurdjieff (with whom I have issues but I still like the system.) :P
The cool thing about the Enneagram is how it works with the DSM IV. F'rinstance, pathology in a Four- point would show up as depressive or bi-polar disorder. An Eight-point moved to the extreme is an antisocial personality disorder. Yes, I actually use it in my work.
And upon review I will say Leonardo is definitely a One, not a Three. Read the high functioning Seven and see if that isn't our boy Mikey. (At the pathological end of the Seven point scale is Narcissistic PD...)
Cool stuff, neh?

~GW.....Four Point, all the way....:D

[Anonymous]

Gnnh, I got a seven point. I can't be that happy... there's too many happy words in that description! *reads down the bottom...*

Adjectives for Low Functioning Sevens

Materialistic
Hyperactive
Impulsive
Excessive
Acts out anxiety
Escapist
Superficial
Rebellious
Fears Depth
More is Better
Seeks Immediate gratification
Runs from here to there

Now those words describe me better. but this thing here in the type descriptions link on that results page I was worrying about.

The Busy, Fun-Loving Type:
Spontaneous, Versitle, Acquisitive, and Scattered
(The Manic-Depressive and Histrionic Personality Disorders)

Amanda (cool test tho GW, there any more of these you know of?)

[Skeletoncrew]

BTW, this is sort of random...but I was interested to read recently that St. Christopher is said to have had the head of a dog before his conversion to Christianity.

[GreenWillow]

~I wonder if that's kinda like a metaphor for evolving to a higher level of consciousness-- like Pinochio has a wooden head til he becomes a "Real Boy"...

(cool test tho GW, there any more of these you know of?)

~Not offhand, but I know I could find 'em. The Meyers-Briggs is online somewhere I know--that's a fun one. I'll look around later today and see if I can find that site.
And the thing about this freebie Enneagram test-- it may not be all *that* accurate. I did score as a Four on it, but it was close. The $10 longer one is prolly a lot better, but some people say the only really accurate way to find one's point is to be interviewed by someone trained in it. Personally, though I "typed" myself when I first started my class on the subject. Read the chapter on the Four and I just knew. Then again, I'm pretty self- aware just cuz I'm so damned introspective....uh...that's a Four trait--lol!
The other thing is that those "low functioning" traits-- they can recur in a person's life in times of stress. Generally over a lifetime we grow and move toward the "higher functioning" qualities, but I can sure see myself "relapsing" into some of those less desireable behaviors under stress.

~GW

[HorseTechie]

:-? Where's the link to the Ennegram test?

Well, at least I can say that I am not depressed, and I'm two points away from being totally stressed out. :goofygri:

[GreenWillow]

~Here is the test, at the bottom of the page are the questions for the freebie one:
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/dis_sample_36.asp

~GW

[GreenWillow]

~And I have a private bet going with myself as to what you come out as, HT. I promise I'll tell you if I was right or not. :wink:

~GW

[Kali]

:ohwell: Well, that was interesting, at least.

[HorseTechie]

Heh... I'll have to say, those questions were tricky in a vague way. Hope I did this right!

Type 1 - 6
Type 2 - 0
Type 3 - 6
Type 4 - 4
Type 5 - 4
Type 6 - 4
Type 7 - 4
Type 8 - 3
Type 9 - 5

So I'm like a type between a Reformer and an Achiever.... I must admit the Reformer half is due to influences from my husband. I seemed much more careless many years ago, since I am something of a klutz. ;p

[GreenWillow]

~I think that makes you pretty close to a Leo kinda girl, HT. :lol: Heh...well, I was wrong, anyway. I was thinking 8.
Mine came out like this:
One=1
Two=5
Three=5
Four=6
Five=5
Six=3
Seven=5
Eight=1
Nine=5
Apparently I am *nothing* like Leo....sai....

~GW

[GreenWillow]

:ohwell: Well, that was interesting, at least.

~So Kali, what did you come out as? Remember they say that your type is likely to be among the top two or three scores, not necessarily the highest scoring one.

~GW

[Kali]

Well, I got these scores:
One- 3
Two- 2
Three- 4
Four- 5
Five- 8
Six- 3
Seven- 2
Eight- 2
Nine- 7

And I have no idea what any of it means. :embarass:

[Machias Banshee]

Type 1--> 5
Type 2--> 3
Type 3--> 5
Type 4--> 5
Type 5--> 5
Type 6--> 4
Type 7--> 1
Type 8--> 1
Type 9--> 7

Heh, Interesting.....

[heretic888]

i've been reviewing these personality types.... and i think GW is basically right on about the turtles.

Mike seems to apply to Type 2 Helper, Type 4 Individualist, Type 7 Enthusiast, and Type 9 Peacemaker a lot. Like I said, he is the most 'fifth element' of the group so he is almost impossible to simply 'label' in a format like this. I guess its all a matter of flexibility. Don is the next most flexible, followed by Leo, and finally Raph (the most obstinate of the four).

I would say both Mike and Splinter are a Type 10 the "No Type", because they are literally impossible to predict and impossible to label.

[GreenWillow]

~Mikey's a Seven. :P Phhffbt!

And Splinter's prolly an evolving Eight. Remember when we "met" him (Mirage #1) he had raised his sons with the * sole intention* of exacting revenge upon his sworn enemy.

~GW

[heretic888]

yes, but dont take the first issue too seriously...... there was next to no personality development and the only character with any real personality context was Raphael. remember that the tmnt were not originally planned to be an ongoing series, but a one-shot.

it was in issue 2 and on that actual character development began....

and i still think mike is kind of a 'formless' type to degrees.... although 2, 4, 7 and 9 apply to him the most.

[Machias Banshee]

Splinter an 8? Yeesh....he'd have the same mannerism's as Fidel Castro, if youre right...Hmmm...Maybe in the beginning, but I thnk time's made him mellow a bit, becoming more closely to a nine....

[GreenWillow]

~Ok, and I have an unfair advantage when it comes to the Enneagram. Something about Sevens that may not be emphasized in those brief profiles is a sort of Dilettante- Jack-of-All-Trades- Lover- of- Life-Please-Do NOT- categorize - me attitude, which is why a Seven might look like a lot of other Types.
Then again, we ARE talking about a fictitious character..... I love just playing with this stuff when writing fanfics though. And I must mention <modest cough> I do have a reputation for accurate portayal.....heh...
And ok, Heretic, I gotta call you on this one: I've seen you pull *tons* of wonderfully documented evidence out of the Mirage books to support your position on various debates here, but you wanna discount the very first Mirage book cuz they hadn't fully developed the characters yet? You know Eastman and Laird drew pages and pages of character development sketches before doing that book, right? :evilgrin:
Heh ...c'mon now...play fair. It's Mirage, it's Eastman and Laird, book #1 is the Real Stuff. <poke poke> :P
Plus Splinter's thirst for revenge is SO important to the rest of the mythos-- it informs their (the TMNT's) lives for SO long, nearly gets Leo killed, destroys Aprils' life in NYC, is the underlying reason for that fight between Leo and Raph in the barn....all kinds of important stuff hangs on that fatefull obsession of Splinters....

~GW

[heretic888]

i think that's kinda one of the lessons/themes of the tmnt books..... that revenge is stupid... circle of violence and all that stuff..... too bad they dont learn that until after the fact....

[heretic888]

who, circular! Taoism strikes the Turtles again!! mwhahahahah!!!

[GreenWillow]

~Yup yup! Like, cosmic, dude..... :P

~ Machias, check out the other Eight-Points. Lotsa leadership there, once they learn how to get out of their own way and harness those "baser" impulses.
Hey, what have you got against Fidel Casto? He's motivated by principle and ideals, that's fer sure.... and they love him in Cuba. Ok, so he's got some stubborn *control* issues perhaps...heh....

~GW

[Machias Banshee]

Hmmm....Good point. Guess he is kinda 8ish....hehehe.....

[Skeletoncrew]

Hmm...here's what I came up as:
1) 4
2) 2
3) 3
4) 5
5) 6
6) 5
7) 4
8) 2
9) 5

Rather spread out...typical of me!

[Kameko]

:lol: You're '8' came out as a smiley, SC... :P

[Skeletoncrew]

:lol: I hadn't noticed that!

[GreenWillow]

~I thought you did that on purpose-- some cryptic commentary on Eight Points-- :lol:

~GW

[Skeletoncrew]

No, I'm not that clever!

[HorseTechie]

~I think that makes you pretty close to a Leo kinda girl, HT. :lol: Heh...well, I was wrong, anyway. I was thinking 8.
That's what I mean.. in that the way the tests presented those questins, I could have gone either way on many. I decided to rate myself as how I react to things in the real world, like at school or at work.

But I am quite different online... so the second time I took this with my online personality, I came out with a 5 and an 8 as the highest (with 1 and 7 as next highest). :P

*I must live with the TMNT trapped in my heeeead!*

[GreenWillow]

That's what I mean.. in that the way the tests presented those questins, I could have gone either way on many. I decided to rate myself as how I react to things in the real world, like at school or at work.
~Kinda funny, cuz part of my "guess" was based on stuff you've shared from your RL situations...


But I am quite different online... so the second time I took this with my online personality, I came out with a 5 and an 8 as the highest (with 1 and 7 as next highest). :P
~Prolly the thing to do would be to go through that whole site and read the various little bits about the points and see what feels most like you. Each point has two Wings, which also can have an influence.
Or maybe you are more your "Real Self" online! Hrm... there's an interesting thought....


*I must live with the TMNT trapped in my heeeead!*
~LOL! Hey, I can like, totally relate.... :P
~GW

[HorseTechie]

That's something I've wondered... which is the real me? Or how fine is that line between an Achiever and a Challenger?

*runs off to plot how takeover the internet world*

:evilgrin:

[heretic888]

to summarize my earlier posts, the tmnt are probably Taoist-Buddhists. :P

[heretic888]

bump. heh heh heh.

[HorseTechie]

*closes eyes... takes in deep breath*

Oooooommmmmm......

*ducks bap*

[GreenWillow]

~Wha--? Bump? Om? Criminy! Yes, I want to talk about this, but if I don't get this project completed I know about ten or fifteen fanfic authors who are going to start organizing a lynch mob soon....ack.
Yeah. Zen Buddhist/Taoist. I concur. :P

Oh, funny thing: I'm on several non-TMNT related lists (this is supposed to be proof that I have a life outside the TMNT) some being about spirituality and/or Paganism. One Internet newbie was terribly taken with my website ("How did you DO that?" <snicker>) and said she was going to refer some friends who were "new to Paganism" over. I tried to explain that my website has very little to do with Paganism and that I really suspected that the Ninja Turtles were Buddhist, but I think the point was entirely lost....
HT--check yer email! Quick! :evilgrin:

~GW...newbies are so cute....I was never that cute though....

[HorseTechie]

(( done did! :P ))

*wonders how one can confuse Asian religion with Paganism* They do have common similarities, what with the nature worship and rituals, but I doubt they are the same. That's like saying Catholicism is Paganistic because of their use of rituals and idols too. Oy... :roll:

[azure turtle]

*gasp*
I can't believe I missed this! Hey GW, that test you linked to is like the ultimate personality quiz! 'Twas a lot of fun... Unfortunately, I don't remember what my number spread was. All I remember was being described as a 3. :ohwell:

[heretic888]

Well, in a certain sense 'paganism' just refers to any non judeo-christian tradition. however, it was ORIGINALLY used to refer to the Mystery Schools throughout the Mediterranean (Greece, Egypt, Syria, etc etc.). Nowadays, people use it primarily to refer to the tribal religions of Western Europe.

In a certain sense, Christianity IS paganism. That is, the original 'christian religion' was creating by merging the pagan Mystery Schools with Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah), and the figure of "Jesus Christ" is essentially a merger of the Jewish messiah and the Pagan dying and resurrecting godman. In fact, original Christianity (Gnosticism) was almost identical to the pagan Mystery Schools. It was only centuries later that Christianity took on a more 'fundamentalist' and 'literalist' flavor (the Gnostics knew the stories about Jesus and Jesus himself were metaphors).

As for Buddhism. Well, Buddhism has very little in common with some of the tribal religions of Western Europe, but has much in common with the Greco Mystery Schools. However, at root, all religions are one, so to speak. So, I could probably draw a parallel to any two religious traditions in that the true goal of ALL religion is oneness with "Spirit" (however IT is conceived) via meditative and contemplative practices.

Yeah, the TMNT are buddhist in nature. I tend to think they are a combination of Taoist, Zen Buddhist, and Tantric Buddhist (think Tibetan Buddhism), with perhaps some elements of secular Shinto.

[GreenWillow]

~One primary difference I see between the "fundamentalist" religions (like the more modern manifestations of Christianity and Islam) is the idea that the Creator is some external being--separate from Creation itself. A God who is Out There somewhere is more capable of passing judgement upon his creations--hence the more judgemental nature of those religions and the rigid morality that seems to go with them.
Paganisms, Taoism, Gnosticism, envision the divine as being inseparable, immanent throughout all of existance. All of life is sacred in this context because it is ALL "God".
And by extension, rather than seeing myself as a human being who has spiritual experiences, I see myself as a spiritual being having this human experience.

~GW

[terran631]

*feels WAY outta her league but cant resist* Am I a man who dreamed he was butterfly...or a butterfly who is dreaming he is a man?

Or am I neither and just a really obsessed TMNT fan? :D

[GreenWillow]

~"C"-- obsessed TMNT fan.
Me too. :lol:

~GW

[HorseTechie]

Moooo... behold the Holy Cow.

http://www.maps2anywhere.com/Graphics/ShalinCraft-holy-cow-Kaamdhenu.gif

[GreenWillow]

~Reminds me more of the Cerebus......well, wait, the Goddess-centered religions of the Indus Valley and (pre-Hinduism) did consider the cow to be a symbol of the Goddess (the horns and face of cattle mirror the female reproductive organs) and the origins of Triple Goddess tradition (Mother, Maiden, Crone) do go back to those times, too.
Ok, HT, where and when does that piece of art come from?

.....oh, nevermind, I found it. It's the Hindu Cow Goddess, Kaamdhenu. I forgot how many Hindu dieties have multiple heads and limbs.....
~GW

[heretic888]

~One primary difference I see between the "fundamentalist" religions (like the more modern manifestations of Christianity and Islam) is the idea that the Creator is some external being--separate from Creation itself. A God who is Out There somewhere is more capable of passing judgement upon his creations--hence the more judgemental nature of those religions and the rigid morality that seems to go with them.
Paganisms, Taoism, Gnosticism, envision the divine as being inseparable, immanent throughout all of existance. All of life is sacred in this context because it is ALL "God".
And by extension, rather than seeing myself as a human being who has spiritual experiences, I see myself as a spiritual being having this human experience.

damn straight. :D

I think you gotta remember though that there have ALWAYS been 'fundamentalists' and 'literalists' in pretty much all religions. The Pagan 'fundamentalist' was much more common than the Pagan 'Gnostic'. Although the ESSENCE and CORE of ALL religions is the basic mysticism you described, gw, the vast majority of the followers of those religions do not acknowledge this.

It just so happens that Buddhism and Taoism doesnt tend to have 'fundamentalists' because it more or less lays everything out instead of encoding the teachings in myths about resurrecting Sons of God and so on.

[GreenWillow]

~Well. now that I'm thinking about it it seems like I think Taoism's more exoteric stuff-- which is a lot like sympathetic magic, with lots of dieties-- could be thought of as the "fundamentalism" aspect of the religion. And what HT had spoken of a few pages (?) back on this thread-- the Buddhist practice that is very centered on prayer beads and it's whole pantheon of dieties, might represent that more literal approach.
It might be safe to say that all religions have their exoteric (or fundamentalist) aspects, and also their more esoteric aspects. One part is the literal interpretation that focusses on dogma and ritual and folklore, while the esoteric beliefs have more to do with spirituality. And I think of spirituality as a person's direct relationship with Spirit, and how that manifests in one's life; how we deal with others or with life in general.
So you could have a very religous person, who was not very spiritual, or a very spiritual person who is not at all religious.

~GW

[HorseTechie]

Ooo.. very well said. That's even stated in the bible too... *shuts up* :P

[heretic888]

Well. now that I'm thinking about it it seems like I think Taoism's more exoteric stuff-- which is a lot like sympathetic magic, with lots of dieties-- could be thought of as the "fundamentalism" aspect of the religion. And what HT had spoken of a few pages (?) back on this thread-- the Buddhist practice that is very centered on prayer beads and it's whole pantheon of dieties, might represent that more literal approach.


That is true, but you will never find a Buddhist roshi or guru saying the highest Way is to pray to Buddha or anything like that. That's the difference between the Eastern traditions and the monotheistic big three. A Taoist sage understands that the 'gods' in Taoist thought dont actually exist and are archetypes. Whereas a Christian priest thinks there actually was a Jesus Christ.

Taoist and Buddhist teachers are aware that the 'exoteric' aspects of their religion exist to placate the more ignorant masses, and know that the REAL essence of their religion is bodhi and enlightenment. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims actually think the exoteric part of their religion IS the essence. Of course, this is not suprising considering that any teacher that actually understood the esoteric of religion would be crucified in the West. The unfortunate consequence is that virtually all spiritual wisdom in the West (with notable exceptions of Kabbalah and Sufism) has been destroyed by ignorant violent paranoids.

[GreenWillow]

~Ok, I have a question for everyone who's following this. According to Leonard Shlain (The Alphabet versus the Goddess) prior to the birth of Islam and Judaism, there were no wars fought over religion-- that is, no wars fought over *ideas* of what God is. There were hundreds of gods, one basically for each township or tribe throughout the prehistoric world and when you went to a different place, you sort of adapted and worshipped whoever the reigning diety was in that region. There were wars fought over power and wealth and land, but not over beliefs.
The House of Abraham (from whence came Islam, Judaism, and later Christianity) began this strange new kind of war --"Holy Wars" which were fought to convert one population to the religious beliefs of another.
Now I think I know what Riane Eisler, author of The Chalice and the Blade, would say, but what do you all think?
Heretic, are there any parallels in the Eastern religions? Any Holy Wars fought only for the purpose of converting one group of people to another religion? I can't think of when it might have happened in Asia, but I haven't studied Asian history enough.

~GW

[HorseTechie]

hrmm.. *decides to leave this one for Heretic* Seeing as how I sometimes skew the facts on Far Eastern religions a bit. :wink:

The only upheaval I'm aware of is when the Catholic missionaries came to over to Japan. They were willing to trade with the westerners, but the Japanese were not going to let their religion be 'replaced' so easily.

[GreenWillow]

~Yeah-- but that was with the introduction of Christianity -- again, one of those three monotheistic religions that were derived from the same root. I'm looking for something that might refute Shlain's premise-- that before the Judeo/Christian/Islamic religions, there were no "holy wars".
Shlain writes that there is a connection between the introduction of the alphabet (rather than pictographs) which alters the human brain and the way we think, that favors patriarchal male-dominated religions and cultures.

~GW

[heretic888]

~Ok, I have a question for everyone who's following this. According to Leonard Shlain (The Alphabet versus the Goddess) prior to the birth of Islam and Judaism, there were no wars fought over religion-- that is, no wars fought over *ideas* of what God is. There were hundreds of gods, one basically for each township or tribe throughout the prehistoric world and when you went to a different place, you sort of adapted and worshipped whoever the reigning diety was in that region. There were wars fought over power and wealth and land, but not over beliefs.
The House of Abraham (from whence came Islam, Judaism, and later Christianity) began this strange new kind of war --"Holy Wars" which were fought to convert one population to the religious beliefs of another.
Now I think I know what Riane Eisler, author of The Chalice and the Blade, would say, but what do you all think?

Heh, that's a load of ******** if I ever heard one. So-called 'religious wars' have been around for a very, very long time and can be traced back to most horticultural societies. Besides, its not like there is a clear disctinction between wars over religion and wars for power, if you know what i mean.

It sounds to me that this author is trying to glorify some time when 'the goddess' reigned and all was sweetness and light and gummy bears. Then the mean ol' male chauvanist god came and ****ed up eveything up, right? not quite. The goddess-dominated horticultural societies were the first ones to implement religo-ethnic wars and had the highest degree of human slavery and human sacrifice of any cultural type. I'm not saying patriarchal is better than matriarchal or the other way around, only that both were primitive prerational religious patternings that didnt comprehend the true value of human life.

Heretic, are there any parallels in the Eastern religions? Any Holy Wars fought only for the purpose of converting one group of people to another religion? I can't think of when it might have happened in Asia, but I haven't studied Asian history enough.

Not to my knowledge. Perhaps with Confucianism or some forms of primitive Hinduism. But most certainly not with most forms of Buddhism, Taoism, Vedanta, Tantra, or Shinto. There were some wars in ancient Japan over what would be the state religion, Shinto or Buddhism, but that was relatively short-lived. Most of the wars in the East have been about amassing land and so-on, but could be seen as religiously linked...... but there never was any overt attempt to 'convert' the world.

The only upheaval I'm aware of is when the Catholic missionaries came to over to Japan. They were willing to trade with the westerners, but the Japanese were not going to let their religion be 'replaced' so easily.

As far as I know, Japan accepted Christianity with open arms.... probably because they desired Spanish and Dutch goods. The Jesuits had a big presence in Japan.

Shlain writes that there is a connection between the introduction of the alphabet (rather than pictographs) which alters the human brain and the way we think, that favors patriarchal male-dominated religions and cultures.

Another big load of ********. The development of letters and so on is the sign of developing higher abstract thought, as opposed to simplistic concrete-operational patterning. It is not masculine or feminine. The division of male and female brains like that is also largely erroneous. If anything, male brains are more associated with spatial (as opposed to verbal and written) patternings, due to a greater right hemispheric-dominance.

Honestly, writers like this try and portray that the history of humanity is of women values gettin squashed on by the mean ol' men values and, that originally, men and women lived in harmony under a matriarchy and eveything was heaven. That is so wrong i dont even know where to begin. Human history is a history of the gradual evolution of consciousness.... with things like compassion and reason and freedom coming more to the forefront as the millenia unfold. It isnt coincidence that slavery was almost universally banned across the globe within a century time period.

[GreenWillow]

~Pushed some buttons with that one I guess. That's ok. Ten years ago I was writing a paper in grad school dealing with religion and consciousness and I was struck by the paradigm shift that took place with the advent of written language. I wrote a thesis paper, Leonard Shlain wrote a book. (He prolly made more money off the same premise than me.... :P )
A very well-researched text on the topic (which does manage to avoid that reductionist "bad" male vrs "good" female model) is The Origins of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind by Julian Hayes.

No, I don't think that there were any gummie bears running around those pre-literate agrarian societies. None of these authors, nor myself, would argue that everything was all egalitarian sunshine and light. But a fundamental paradigm shift -- a brain function shift -- appears to have occured with the introduction of the written word. We gained much as a species, but possibly at a cost.

~GW


"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to treat everything like a nail."
Abraham Maslow

[heretic888]

actually, we evolved.

the so-called 'patriarchal' societies you speak of were a result of a higher level of evolutionary consciousness. In modern psychological terms, it was the development of what is now called concrete-operational thinking. The so-called matriarchal cultures beforehand were primarily pre-operatonal.

with the advent of the Age of Reason and democracy, our species developed into formal-operational thinking and perspectival rationalism. a further paradigm shift occured around the baby boomer years, when network-logic and aperspectival pluralism first merged (the level of thinking beyond formal operational).

this really has nothing to do with patriarchy or matriarchy. it has to do with the evolutionary development of consciousness and awareness. remember though, that every stage of development also has its inquisition (for the concrete-operational stage of the male-dominated agrarian societies it actually WAS the Inquisition!!)

[GreenWillow]

actually, we evolved.

~No argument here. What I'm refering to is a shift in how our brains began functioning. We gained the gift of "rational", "logical" (ie formal operations) but in giving up the non-rational "magical" thinking, we lost what could be called a direct connection to Spirit. We began to learn from books, rather than direct experience, or from oral tradition. Oral tradition favors "right brain" activity. Reading alphabetic language calls for the more focused "left brain" to come into play. I'm not saying the introduction of reading was a *bad* thing-- but there was a sacrifice made in the service of our evolution. Shlain cites some wonderful evidence to support his thesis-- no room for it all here.



with the advent of the Age of Reason and democracy, our species developed into formal-operational thinking and perspectival rationalism. a further paradigm shift occured around the baby boomer years, when network-logic and aperspectival pluralism first merged (the level of thinking beyond formal operational).

~I think a fundamental part of that paradigm shift arose out of the reintegration of "right brain" function into what had for centuries been patterns of predominately "left brain" ideals. The 60's was really one big explosion of right-brain activity. The peace movement, the civil rights movement, the womens' movement, (lotta movements...) the shift in business from hierarchies to networking, the discovery of the extent of the interdpendence of organisms in an ecosystem (a term which didn't even exist until the mid 60's) -- all these things reflect a shift to more global universal thinking ("aperspectival pluralism") and inclusion, rather than exclusion.


this really has nothing to do with patriarchy or matriarchy. it has to do with the evolutionary development of consciousness and awareness.

~Well, yes and no. There have been paradigm shifts throughout time-- all heralded by some revolutionary breakthrough in humankind's knowledge that shakes people's belief systems to the core. Sometimes the balance of power shifts to favor "patriarchal" values, sometimes more "matriarchal". We hope (and I see Heretic you are prolly one of those who does perceive the history of humanity as being synonymous with the history of consciousness) that all this leap-frogging has a forward direction-- and that we are evolving. (Personally, I'd like to get there (wherever that is) before we self-destruct the whole damn planet .....)


remember though, that every stage of development also has its inquisition (for the concrete-operational stage of the male-dominated agrarian societies it actually WAS the Inquisition!!)

~Yup....So would the destruction of the Native American culture in the US, the Holocaust of Nazi Germany, and the McCarthyism in the 50's in the US for example be the "Inquisitions" of the formal-operational stage of our evolving human consciousness?
Gee...can't wait to see what us highly evolved aperspective pluralists come up with.......:dead:

~GW :evilgrin:

[heretic888]

What I'm refering to is a shift in how our brains began functioning. We gained the gift of "rational", "logical" (ie formal operations) but in giving up the non-rational "magical" thinking, we lost what could be called a direct connection to Spirit. We began to learn from books, rather than direct experience, or from oral tradition. Oral tradition favors "right brain" activity. Reading alphabetic language calls for the more focused "left brain" to come into play. I'm not saying the introduction of reading was a *bad* thing-- but there was a sacrifice made in the service of our evolution.

Actually, that is a HUGE misconception among New Age circles.

First off, we really didn't develop formal rational (or perspectival reason) thought as a whole during that point in time, but rather what developmental psychologists as concrete-operational thinking. This stage precedes the formal-operational thinking of true reason (which only truly emerged during the Renaissance and Age of Reason).

Secondly, we did not lose any 'direct contact with Spirit'. This may deeply suprise you, but an atheistic scientist is in fact MORE SPIRITUAL than most of the 'magical' persons you speak of, in that the scientist has a higher level of consciousness that is closer to what Spirit symbolizes. The magical-animistic stage you speak of us is not highly developed or spiritual at all. It aligns with what developmental psychologists call pre-operational thinking; it is a result of the inability to yet fully differentiate subject and object.... and thus, there is a sort of animism in which the individual 'projects' his or her egoic intention on inanimate objects (thus imbuing with them with a so-called 'spirit'). This is very similar to modern-day infants (which is not suprising considering our species was still in its 'infancy' at the time). This stage is marked by narcissistic ego projectionism, not a spiritual ego-less self-transcendence. Remember not all non-rational forms of thought are 'spiritual'. (However, there are exceptions at every stage of growth. I am not saying EVERYBODY at this era was magical-animistic, some were indeed very spiritual, but the vast majority was typified by naricissism not transcendence).

Thirdly, the author seems to have this entire paradigm of growth very confused. We did NOT go from 'left' to 'right'... nor did we go from 'spiritual' to 'rational'. Rather, we went from what could be called 'lower' to 'higher'. Oral tradition is not necessarily more right brained, nor is language more left brained. You must remember that there is an equal manifestation of right and left, male and female, at ALL stages of growth. Nonrational is not any more 'left-brained' than rational. With concrete-operational thinking and written language we in fact became MORE spiritual, not less.

I think a fundamental part of that paradigm shift arose out of the reintegration of "right brain" function into what had for centuries been patterns of predominately "left brain" ideals. The 60's was really one big explosion of right-brain activity. The peace movement, the civil rights movement, the womens' movement, (lotta movements...) the shift in business from hierarchies to networking, the discovery of the extent of the interdpendence of organisms in an ecosystem (a term which didn't even exist until the mid 60's) -- all these things reflect a shift to more global universal thinking ("aperspectival pluralism") and inclusion, rather than exclusion.


Incorrect. As I stated previously, left and right equally manifest throughout all stages of growth. The stages themselves occur down the center, you might say. Yes, i agree that the boomer age marked the first real beginning of aperspectival pluralism and truly universal care, but it was also marked by sever regressions into narcissism (which Ken Wilber has termed as 'boomeritis'). Among the baby boom, there was BOTH: high minded liberalism and network-thinking; and narcisstic drops resulting in the term the 'me generation'. It was a somewhat paradoxal time.

Back to the left and right. I think what you need to understand is that left and right first truly differentiate at the concrete-operational level. However, upon that separation, there is a continued process of REINTEGRATION. Look at the growth in cells, they differentiate and recombine in the process of growth. That is how a seed becomes a tree. Same with us. Yes, in the pre-operational level left and right were more or less 'united'.... but it was a simplistic, non-distinctive 'unity' and not a TRUE 'unity in diversity'.

Look at it this way. With the complete self-absorption of prehumans, there is basically NO disctinction between subject and object, left and right. With pre-operational thinking at the magical-animistic level, they begin to differentiate. With concrete-operational thinking of the patriarchal agrarians, they fully separate. With formal-operational thought, this separation reaches its zenith and they have begun to reintegrate. With network-logic, the reintegration is fully underway. Future paradigms will be marked by even greater 'unity in diversity' (some of which are already occuring). It is not that left or right, male or female, is more 'dominant' at any given level.... only that the differences between the two are acknowledged and later reunited in a higher form (like seed's molecules separating and recombining to later form a tree).

There have been paradigm shifts throughout time-- all heralded by some revolutionary breakthrough in humankind's knowledge that shakes people's belief systems to the core. Sometimes the balance of power shifts to favor "patriarchal" values, sometimes more "matriarchal".

Yes, but the balance of patriarchy and matriarchy has more to do with environmental and technological conditions rather than awareness or conscousness. Matriarchy was present among the horticulutral pre-operational magica-animists. Patriarchy was present among the agrarian concrete-operational conservative-fundamentalists. Neither were really dominant among the later stages because neither male nor female biological differences had an advantage (although we still feel the 'legacy' of the old patriarchy. old habits die hard).

We hope (and I see Heretic you are prolly one of those who does perceive the history of humanity as being synonymous with the history of consciousness) that all this leap-frogging has a forward direction-- and that we are evolving. (Personally, I'd like to get there (wherever that is) before we self-destruct the whole damn planet .....)


Actually, the history of the UNIVERSE is the history of the evolution of consciousness. This has been going on since the Big Bang (although involution preceded the Big Bang, but that's another story). Humanity is just the zenith of that evolution as of now. basically though..... we are going forward. But, evolution is like the stock market..... there are occasional dips and rises... but on the whole the whole thing is slowly inching higher. Don't worry about us blowing up the planet. Humanity has a destiny you might say, to fully manifest consciousness. If not.... well, the universe will just have to wait ANOTHER 5 billion years to reach this point.

~Yup....So would the destruction of the Native American culture in the US, the Holocaust of Nazi Germany, and the McCarthyism in the 50's in the US for example be the "Inquisitions" of the formal-operational stage of our evolving human consciousness?


Hmmm.... this is kinda hard because there are occasional regressions into lower speheres. Okay. The inquisition of pre-operational matriarchy was ethnic-religous wars, cannibalism, and human sacrifices. The inquisition of concrete-operational patriarchy was the Inquisition, Crusades, and so on, as well as Stalin's big for a 'communist revolution'. The inquisition of formal-operational reason was the American-Russian Cold War and self-fixated capitalist greed (which is not to say capitalism is bad, only forms of capitalist greed)--- by the way, most of the world is at this stage. The inquistion of the network-logical boomers is our ever-so-happy political correctness ******** and thought police, as well as naricisstic drops into lower spheres ( a direct example of this is the recent 'culture of victims').

The destruction of the Native American culture was a combination of imperialistic fedualism (a stage which lies between pre-operational and concrete-operational) and conrete-operational fundamentalism. The Holocaust was a narcissistic re-emergence of the pre-operational tribalism of the lower spheres. And, like I said previously, the McCarthy Cold War was a negative manifestation of the formal-operational thoughtline.

Every stage has its light and its shadow. The higher the stage,however, the less..... DEADLY the shadow seems to be (thought police are just VERY annoying, not life-threatening).

[heretic888]

where'd the discussion go?????

[Kameko]

:o :o :o Good bloody gawd that's a long post, Heretic!!!

:P Sorry, but I didn't see it before.

And I don't know what happened to the discussion.

[heretic888]

Good bloody gawd that's a long post, Heretic!!

heh. thanks i try. :D :D :D :D :D

[Kameko]

:lol:

[HorseTechie]

His long post must have choked us. :dead: \

But anyway... a new seed of thought was posted on the NTML (by non-other than Kya)...

It was assumed that older generations in Japan (and the rest of Far and SouthEast Asia) did not observe such holidays as Christmas, since Christams was originally a religious holiday (or pseudo religious - in the sense it was invented by the Roman Catholics with the borrowing of the greek mythos and the pagan celebration of lights) for the western cultures.

So it was also wondered if the TMNT really did celebrate Christmas, assuming that if Splinter prolly did not care much about it.

My Kroean husband and many other Asian friends I knew in college, told me otherwise. The newer generations that are more fascinated with western culture now also celebrate the spirit of Christmas, by the ritual of giving gifts and whatnot.

But what is your view on this too, would you think the TMNT (or more specifically, Splinter) would be big fans of Christmas, Heretic? :D

[heretic888]

i dont think they would have a problem with it. they would probably see it as a chance to have a little fun and come together as a family.

like most japanese, the religious side of christmas probably means nothing to them.