Leonardo?

[PWDESAI]

Am i one of teh few or only who likes leonardo? whenever someone has to choose it's always mike, or in 2nd place don or raph. I was just at adc, and there were 5 mike votes, 2 raph, 2 don, and 1 leo and that leo was me :(

[Greed]

Most people don't like the leader types

[PWDESAI]

r u a fan of leo? yeah it's a bummer... leo is the coolest.

[Azraelito]

nop mike rox.

[Greed]

Raph is the coolest with out a doubt

[Mondo_Gecko]

Go Mikey

[Kali]

I have to admit my favorite's Raph. It's not that I don't like Leo, it's just that he's way too much like me, and I don't really like how I am.

[Kameko]

Right now, my fav's still Donny. But then, it's always changing, so next week it may very well be Leo! :P

[terran631]

I'm a Leo fan. If only because he is a lot like me. I can relate.

[PWDESAI]

o he's nothinglike me i just love his character... only 2 leo fans.. :(

[Deathknight]

I'm a Leo fan myself... which is why the ep Leonardo Lightens up really pissed me off.

[RESOL]

Leo was is and always will be my favorite turtle. Mike comes in second,raph in third, and don is fourth/ :D :D :D

[Ninja Turtles Cartoon Fan]

I'm a Leo fan myself... which is why the ep Leonardo Lightens up really pissed me off.

You didn't like that episode? I liked it, simply because it was something different. All the Turtles, at one time or another, underwent a personality change in the show.

Leonardo and Raphael got zapped by Donatello's Personality Modifying Ray. Donatello got electrocuted or whatever in "Night of the Dark Turtle." I don't recall Michaelangelo ever undergoing a personality change though. That's what I've been thinking about doing my first fan-fiction on, actually.

But I could be wrong about that. I haven't see every episode.

By the way, my favorite Turtle is Raphael. His personality suits me best. And he always had some of the best lines.

"So help me . . . if I get trashed . . . one more time . . . I AM QUITTING THE SHOW!" - Raphael, from "The Starchild"

Yeah, I know that's about the third time I've used that quote, but it's one of my favorites of all time. :lol:

[Donatello the turtle]

Don 1st
Mike 2nd
Raph 3rd
and leo is the last turtle....i jast don't like him the bast(but i love is daisho...)

[Karpo_007]

I used to think that Raphael was my favorite. But now I have realised, that They work best as a team.(All tough Raphael works good with Casey Jones) I have to say that right now i cant single anyone out.

[HorseTechie]

Well.. I did like Leo for a year or so back when I was in college. I'm actually one fo those fans who likes all the TMNT for all their qualities. My favs usually depend on my moods.

O course, the fact I am somewhat like Raph in personality makes it a little tough for me to be a Leo fan 100%.

[Jade Green]

Eh-heh...
I think Leo is okay; but like Randi, I find fun in challenging his leadership position.

Randi: I don't challenge it, I point out things wrong with it... besides he's a pompous idiot.

Gray: Err, I wouldn't know, never met the guy.

Jade: Both of you, shut up.

[heretic888]

I like all the turtles, not equally though. Michelangelo is my favorite though because of his open-mindedness, creativity, compassion, humility, love of life and experience, optimism, and humor. He is in many ways an ideal symbol for personal growth (being the only fully postconvetional of the four). Not to mention, he has far more physical prowess and dexterity than his brothers so he could prolly whup any of their arses next Tuesday. :P

[Karpo_007]

Nope Michelangelo is not the best fighter of them... The best comes close between Leo and Raph.

[SeaThreePeeO]

I used to be a Raph fan, because i was very much like him. But, since my daughter was born I have grown up a lot and changed into more of a Leo persona. Although I see myself more of a Raph/Leo mix.

Saying that I am a self confessed Leo fan!

[PWDESAI]

wow 4 leo fans WOO WOO! heh
i dunno, if you go by cartoon, then leonardo is the best fighter, besides teh clones ;)
if you go by the comics and the cartoon it would still be leo, because in an ep with lotus, where shredder loses his temper and loses, the same would happen to raph,
now if you go by the comics alone, it could be equal, of course leo killed shredder both times, the peters favorite character is raph, and who knows maybe one ish they will fight, i think someone should ask dan berger to ask peter that... WHO WOULD WIN LEO OR RAPH!

[Deathknight]

The reason I didn't like Leonardo Lightens up is because they made Leonardo look like a total jerk which is why they wanted to zap with the personality modifing ray... That ep was an insult to Leo fans. They made Leonardo look extremely bossy and heartless.

[Reznorite420]

Donatello was my personal fave, mainly because he was the nerd of the group, just like I am :D :D :D

[Ninja Turtles Cartoon Fan]

The reason I didn't like Leonardo Lightens up is because they made Leonardo look like a total jerk which is why they wanted to zap with the personality modifing ray... That ep was an insult to Leo fans. They made Leonardo look extremely bossy and heartless.

I thought that was kind of the whole point of the episode. Leonardo being bossy and heartless, a.k.a. being a total jerk, taught the Turtles to appreciate Leonardo for what he is. The writers purposefully wrote him to be that way to get their point across.

The Turtles think he should lighten up, right? Well, what's the worst thing that could happen in that regard? Not only does he lighten up, he does so in a bad way.

I didn't think the episode was an insult to all the Leonardo fans out there. I'd say the episode drove its point home quite well.

If anything was an insult in that episode, it was the stupid villain. Why does a villain who can blow up buildings and steal stuff go ahead and blow up banks so he can afford more parts for his stereo? That villain was an insult to the viewers, not Leonardo.

"Leonardo, do yourself a favor and lighten up, will ya?" - Raphael, from "Leonardo Lightens Up"

[heretic888]

Nope Michelangelo is not the best fighter of them... The best comes close between Leo and Raph.


Really? Well, look at it this way: Michelangelo, out of all the four, has by far the greatest level of physical prowess. That's agility, dexterity, reflexes, flexibility, quickness (as opposed to speed), grace, accuracy, precision, and a couple of other things as well. In other words, overall physical skill with the body.

In a fight this manifests as the ability to connect with your hits, as well as dodge and/or block the opponent's hits. This would also account for one's ability to roll with a punch or knockdown to 'cushion' the impact of the attack. In a martial art that emphasizes full-bodied 'flowing' movement (as opposed to crude bone and muscle 'snapping' movement) such as ninjutsu or tai chi, this would also manifest as the level of damage and power that each attack has behind it.

Regardless to what you may believe about fighting, the turtles are ninja--- NOT boxers. Actual physical strength and speed are next to nothing when fighting with truly skilled fighters. Timing, distancing, rhythm, angling, flow, and the ability to use full-bodied momentum to utilize the power of the ENTIRE body in movement (as opposed to a single limb) and to utilize the speed of the ENTIRE body in a spontaneous instant (as opposed to just moving the legs alone) is what is key among higher-level martial artists.

In addition, the ability to utilize creative response and adaptability (as opposed to a primal animalistic 'hit and then think' response [Raphael] or a learned habitual response [Leonardo]) is what enables the true fighter to achieve victory.

So, tell me: who is really the better fighter???


now if you go by the comics alone, it could be equal, of course leo killed shredder both times, the peters favorite character is raph, and who knows maybe one ish they will fight, i think someone should ask dan berger to ask peter that... WHO WOULD WIN LEO OR RAPH!

Technically, the Shredder killed himself the first time and it was Donatello that knocked him off the building (not Leonardo). Besides, just because Leo killed Shredder does not mean he is the best fighter. Who is to say that Michelangelo or Donatello couldnt have done just as well? Leo just happened to be at the right place at the right time.

Peter Laird's favorite character is Donatello. Kevin Eastman's favorite is Raphael. Leonardo and Raphael did fight one issue (#19) and Raphael won, but then again Leonardo was holding back considerably (such as when he stopped short of plunging the bokken into Raph's throat) and Raph was not.

Leonardo would win in a fight with Raphael because he has higher physical prowess, more creativity, and more self-discipline. Raphael, when angered (which is relatively easy to do) fights to much like an animal; a serious weakness when battling against skilled martial artists.

[Karpo_007]

In what issue does it come out that Michaelangelo has greatest "physical prowess"? I know that he won agains raphael once but that's not enough... I have all the mirage volume 1+ spceials but because recent test week i havent really time to read... Im going at issue 7 right now. So if they in some later issue tell that mchelangelo is so superrior compared to other turtles, let me know.

PS.
Im really intrested where you get the Turtle's Physical status... So far no issues i've read has told that one turtle is really better at fighting than other.

And so far it's usually mike that get injured...

[heretic888]

Actually, Mike beat Raph in sparring twice (issue 2 and the Raphael special). If you will recall issue 2, the fight ended with Mike tossing Raphael into a bookcase with a rolling technique. In the Raphael special, Mike was dodging Raph's attacks and connecting with his own almost without effort (a fact which greatly enraged the proud Raphael). That fight also ended with Mike tossing Raphael to the side.

Much of this information (regarding the turtle's attributes) is gleaned from the TMNT rpg by Palladium which was written around the time that issue 4 came out. Eastman and Laird worked very closely with it and contributed all the artwork for it. The character profiles written therein are pretty much regarded as the 'official' profiles for the mirage tmnt. In them, Mike has a Physical Prowess of 24, Leo has a 20, Raph has an 18 (i believe), and Don has like a 16.

In the character profiles for the new, mirage-based animated series, Mike is also described as having a phenomenal level of agility (compared to the others). The other character profiles for the new cartoon seem to mach the comics characters precisely.

Mike only gets hurt more in fanfictions :P Raph tends to get hurt more in the comics due to his hotheadedness.

[PWDESAI]

yeah this guy is bsing the mike stuff.. so i may not be the best on my comics, all i remember is that leo killed em both times, the 2nd time was when the other turtles couldn't catch up cuz they were being beaten by the other weird thihgs.. leo i think is the best... I have to read that issue #19 where they fight, i forgot all about that one.... O yeah i know for sure that mike is not the best, ask anyone, even true mikey fans, most mikey fans like him for who he is not how he fights....

[heretic888]

i am not bsing. and shredder was NOT killed by Leo the first time. he killed himself with a bomb and Don knocked him off a building so he wouldnt kill them.

Mike and Don couldnt catch up because Leo went after Raph (who foolishly tried to fight Shredder by himself).

it doesnt matter who you THINK is the best fighter... in both the heavily mirage-based profiles on the TMNT rpg (which eastman and laird were VERY involved with) Mike has the highest physical prowess by a LOT. And in the new animated series, also heavily mirage and laird-based, Mike is also described as having the highest agility by a considerable degree.

Besides, Mike only 'gets hurt more' in fanfictions. And he kicked the crap outta Raph twice.

[Karpo_007]

For what i've read(I have a pdf of one of the rpg books), Only the art work for RPG books came from mirage. I can easily believe that Michelangelo is the most agile one, but then again he's the one that gets hurt more often than others... It's true that Michelangelo has beaten Raph, but when it has come to fight real enemies, Rapahel has always had better success. As for Leonardo HE's the most disciplined one. And He had a duel with shredder at the end of "Return to new york" but at the first time Leo didnt kill shredder. Shredder was half dead when he decided to take the turtles with him.

[Nturtle]

I found a site with that kind of information on it once, although it was not official it was intresting, I lost the link though or it has been swollowed up in the emmense blackhole of internet sites.
Raphael ussually looses when he loses his temper, I'd say Leo is the best fighter

[Kali]

Let me just say that none of the turtles are "the best fighter". They all have strengths and weaknesses. Overall, Mike's the most "well-rounded" fighter. Leo's most skilled, and Raph's most enthusiastic. Don's kinda a pacifist, but still knows what he's doing.

As for who would win between Leo and Raph. It'll all depend on circumstance.

[Karpo_007]

Thats pretty much right. And that is also what i meant by saying that "They work best as a team" Still it's interisting to compare their fighting...

[Nturtle]

can't argue with that. even if they did declare who was the best fighter etc... that would limit the action, story and everything else

[Deathknight]

I would never consider Mikey the best fighter out of all 4 tmnt. Michelangelo is always getting captured and beaten by the simplest of enemies... Splinter even says in Snakes Alive! that Leonardo was the most gifted.

[Kali]

Well, define "best fighter". Is it the most skilled? The most talented? One who puts in the most effort? The one who wins the most battles? The one who avoids them all together? What? And in which universe: cartoon, Mirage, movie, Image?

Everything considered, the turtles are a team, and a family, and thus, do their best when working together.

[RESOL]

Leo was is and always will be the best of the turtles. :P

[Brodie]

Leo's great, but he's about 3rd on my list, or a close to second (not quite though). Raph and Don are my favorite. I used to hate Donny, but now I just find that Mike is the one that erks me. If any of you learn anything from this thread, it's that Leo is better than Mike. Slash is the 4th favorite turtle. . .Mike is like. . .86. . .

[heretic888]

For what i've read(I have a pdf of one of the rpg books), Only the art work for RPG books came from mirage.

The profiles for the TMNT rpg were written around the time issue 4 of volume 1 came out in 1985. So, you are somehow telling me that the desriptions of the characters in the rpg are somehow radically different from the creators' ideas? That somehow, when they had only been in existence for four issues, the TMNT projected in the rpg are the antithesis of what Eastman and Laird envisioned as the strengths and weaknesses of each character?? Just disregard the fact that Eastman and Laird more or less 'authorized' the use and description of their characters and title in the rpg without any regard for authenticity??

Not quite.

And to further make my contention that Mike has the greatest Physical Prowess/agility/dexterity, in the newly created profiles for the TMNT animated series at foxbox.tv, Mike is described as a 'natural athlete' with 'incredible agility'. Laird has been working VERY closely with all the new tmnt mediums now, so i guess he once again was foiled in other people describing Mike in the complete opposite way that he wanted, despite the fact that this description is practically identical to rpg profile??? HMMMM?



I can easily believe that Michelangelo is the most agile one, but then again he's the one that gets hurt more often than others... It's true that Michelangelo has beaten Raph, but when it has come to fight real enemies, Rapahel has always had better success.

Yes, Mike is the most agile one... and as far as ninjutsu is concerned, more agility/dexterity + more creativity/intuition = better fighter/warrior. Kinda gives Mike a bit of an edge, dont yah think? Unlike most martial arts, ninjutsu is NOT based on crude strength and speed (Raphael's advantages) and is NOT based on robotic, drilled response (Leonardo's adavantage of 'discipline'). Mike also beat Raph twice, not just once (very easily the second time, i might add).

As for 'getting hurt more than the others', i hate to break this to you but fanfictions dont count. Mike only gets hurt more in fanfictions. In fact, it is Raphael and Leonardo that get hurt more in the Mirage storylines (only Eastman and Laird's stories count). Raphael moreso.

Who got his ass kicked by the foot and shredder at christmas time? Leo. Who got his ass kicked by the foot when he returned to new york? Raph. Who got his ass kicked when he fought the Shredder elite by himself in an attempt to get to Shredder? Raph. Who got captured and beaten down by Karai and the Foot? Leo. See a pattern here?

Ultimately though, who gets beat by how is up to the writers' whims. The fact remains that Mike still is the most agile, intuitive, and creative of his brothers, which in ninjutsu means he is a better warrior.

The REASON Leo and Raph get beat more than the others do and the REASON they are considered by most to be the 'best fighters' is very simply that they are the most impatient, arrogant, aggressive, and egocentric of the group. Mike is the most talented ninja among them, but he doesnt remind others of that fact or go around intimidating others with an aggressive or uptight attitude. Why? Because all that macho posturing is very un-ninja.

As for Leonardo HE's the most disciplined one.

That means little in a martial art like ninjutsu. The ability to shut up and follow robotic, drilled responses without regard for individuality may be prized in most systems of karate and kung-fu, but it is not in ninjutsu. Michelangelo has the best attitude regarding his training in that he is the only one of the four that genuinely LOVES the art for the art's sake. Leo trains because it is his 'duty' to Splinter. Raph trains because he has a thrill for adventure and physical violence. Don is an overly detached idealistic pacifist, and dislikes training. Mike actually loves the art with a pure heart and light spirit. Among ninjutsu circles, Mike's relaxed, pleasant attitude would be the most beneficial to development (probably one of the reasons that he IS the most agile). As I have said before, Mike is the most 'ninja-like' of the four.

[heretic888]

Let me just say that none of the turtles are "the best fighter". They all have strengths and weaknesses. Overall, Mike's the most "well-rounded" fighter. Leo's most skilled, and Raph's most enthusiastic. Don's kinda a pacifist, but still knows what he's doing.

As for who would win between Leo and Raph. It'll all depend on circumstance.

Not quite. In the rpg, it is described very ambigously saying that leonardo is the 'most skilled' fighter, Raphael is the 'most deadly' fighter, and Mike is the 'most talented' fighter. In actual gameplay, however, Mike possesses far superior ability to dodge and parry attacks and to connect with his own attacks than his other brothers do. And with his superior physical prowess and ninjutsu's reliance on coordinated full-bodied movement, he would realistically cause more damage with his attacks as well.

Leonardo and Raphael are better at rolling though. :P

I guess what you mean by Mike being the most 'well-rounded' is that he possesses qualities that enable him to damage his enemies and avoid their attacks much better than the other three do. leo is the most 'skilled' in the sense that he is the most rigid and the most concerned with 'form' (as opposed to formlessness). Raphael is the most enthusiastic in the sense that he is the most impulsive and enjoys violence more than the others (there's that egocentrism again).

And, under most circumstances, leo would beat raph.

[heretic888]

even if they did declare who was the best fighter etc... that would limit the action, story and everything else

no, it would force the writers to be more realistic and true to the characters. it would greatly IMPROVE the story!

I would never consider Mikey the best fighter out of all 4 tmnt. Michelangelo is always getting captured and beaten by the simplest of enemies... Splinter even says in Snakes Alive! that Leonardo was the most gifted.

First off, thats the cartoon and that is not what we are talking about. They are all bad fighters in the cartoon, no one really being better than another. Secondly Mike is 'always getting captured and beaten' in fanfictions not any mirage stories (raph gets beat up on much more occassions due to his lack of foresight). The only reason that Mike is not considered the 'best fighter' out of the four is because he (and Don) are the only ones that arent concerned with walking around and showing everyone else how tough they are and what a great ninja student they are. In ninjutsu, we Mike's attitude humility. It is the attititude any ninja should have.

Well, define "best fighter". Is it the most skilled? The most talented? One who puts in the most effort? The one who wins the most battles? The one who avoids them all together? What? And in which universe: cartoon, Mirage, movie, Image?

Everything considered, the turtles are a team, and a family, and thus, do their best when working together.

Well, personally i am talking about the Mirage universe (specifically the stories written by Eastman and/or Laird). The 'best fighter' is the one that can deliver the most appropriate damage to one's enemies will avoiding their attempts to damage him/her. Among the tmnt, that's mike due to his agility and creativity.


Leo was is and always will be the best of the turtles.

I guess it depends on what you consider to be 'best'.

If any of you learn anything from this thread, it's that Leo is better than Mike.

Uninformed opinions hardly constitute objective reality, even when dealing with fictitious characters. Like I said, everyone thinks Leo and/or Raph are the best fighter because of their macho, pushy, egocentered attitudes. Mike doesnt go around trying to make everyone think he's a great ninja because he knows it himself.

Remember how horribly pissed off Raph got that Mike beat him with almost no effort??? And what was it Mike said to him at the end?? Oh yeah: "Pride goeth before a fall, buddy". That sums things up very well.

[Karpo_007]

Exatly how much of mirage have you read? I havent read any fan fics to date. They have Never said , that one turtle is better than another. But in mirage, mike is the one who gets injured the most. Just read issue 4. Who's the one who gets most seriously injured? What about issue 6 in the batle with Tricerantons?

And the rpg book. The time of publishing has got nothing to do with the fact that only artwork came from mirage. They probably read it, but they didnt affect the content in any way.

You should have some real info before making arguments like that. Easpecially the fanfic part.As i said i havent read any. Only the comic has the official info and nothing says that One Turtle is any better than others.
And the fact that mike is the most njured one is just a notice, im not saying that he cant fight good against enemies. They all get hurt sometimes, but there are no fas that you can present that clearly shows what you are saying is true. Those are your opinions. But dont present them as facts.

[Karpo_007]

One other thing. You really seem to know about Ninja philosphy, probably more than the creators at the time, ant thats why you really cant mix it with the TMNT. And your post about why they train, again no real facts, pretty much fanfiction.

[Sparvid]

What about issue 6 in the batle with Tricerantons?My favorite fight scene... :)

[heretic888]

so.... i guess its just one of those wacky 'coincidences' that the heavily Mirage-influenced palladium rpg profile description of Mike's physical prowess "just happened' to be almost identical to the heavily laird-involved description in the animated series??? rightt......

so what are you saying? that wujcick and siembieda just chose this **** at random?? that, "ah **** it, lets make raph the physically strongest but third in line in skill and agility and lets make mike the second strongest but first in line on agility???"

oh, and mike gets hurt most often, huh?

Who got his ass handed to him by the Shredder and the Foot in the leonardo special? Who got whupped up again by Karai and her foot? Who got messed up seriously by the Foot TWICE in the return to new york? Who got knocked off a frickin building in a battle with the robot baxter stockman and subsequently captured by the government??? Who got his leg broken in a fight with the shredder elite??

but what you fail to understand is that these storyarchs are all at the whim of the writer. NONE of this affects who is the most agile or skilled fighter. Mike gets captured in so and so story because that is the storyarch Peter chose, it has nothing to do with his character! It is all random. I mean frikkin Skippy the Sixth Turtle could be the best fighter, but Laird might want him to get captured or beat up a lot because that is his decision as writer.

And AS A MARTIAL ARTIST, and AS A NINJUTSU STUDENT, i can tell you that mike's overall personality and attitude toward training is MUCH MORE likely to produce a high level of skill in ninpo than the other three.

Besides... I dont ever remember Raph or Leo beating Mike in a sparring match. In fact, even in the non-Eastman or Laird Mirage comics Mike is often described as 'the best there is' (Juliet's Revenge when he fights Bruce Lee) and as having 'the quickest reflexes and movements' (first part of the River trilogy).

In ever 'mirage oriented' medium comparing the four, Mike is ALWAYS listed as having the greatest physical prowess and dexterity.

[Karpo_007]

Well you fail to understand that i dont really care. They work as a team perioid. They all get injured sometimes. Still it is pointless to argue with this. Every one of them has their strong and week ponts. Only together they are perfect. If you choose to disagree with this, do so by all means.

Arguing is pointless, neither one us has the facts, just our own opinnions. Still ít was nice to argue with you :)

[heretic888]

Exatly how much of mirage have you read? I havent read any fan fics to date. They have Never said , that one turtle is better than another.

Unlike you, I have read EVERY issue of the Mirage books, including Volume 2. And there HAVE been contests between the turtles. Mike beat Raph in sparring twice. Raph beat Leo in a fight, but then later on Leo effortlessly beat Raph in sparring every time (right before City at War). Leo also beat the Shredder Elite when Raph could not (then again, Leo suprised them and Raph did not). Don and Raph have both beat Casey Jones in fights.

I might also add that when they spent a period of precisly two years at the farmhouse, Mike was the ONLY one that spent his time training. Raph was skulking, Don was tinkering, and Leo was off hunting deer.

The time of publishing has got nothing to do with the fact that only artwork came from mirage. They probably read it, but they didnt affect the content in any way.

Oh, and you know this HOW? How the hell do you know that the turtles' profiles werent written by Eastman and Laird themselves???

One other thing. You really seem to know about Ninja philosphy, probably more than the creators at the time, ant thats why you really cant mix it with the TMNT. And your post about why they train, again no real facts, pretty much fanfiction.

I know about ninja philosophy AND traning. And because the tmnt train in ninjutsu, i most certainly CAN mix it in. I post about why they train based on their personality traits and attitude toward the training. In addition to studying martial arts, i also study psychology. Leo trains because of 'duty' in that he is the sociocentric. Raph trains because he enjoys violence, he is the egocentric. Mike trains because he actually enjoys the experience for itself, he is postconventional worldcentric.

Things dont have to be flat out screamed in black and white for an insightful person to discover them, you know.

[heretic888]

They work as a team perioid. They all get injured sometimes. Still it is pointless to argue with this. Every one of them has their strong and week ponts. Only together they are perfect. If you choose to disagree with this, do so by all means.

I never said otherwise. Mike most certainly lacks skills and traits that the others possess, but we WERE talking about which of them has the greatest level of physical skill and ability. There is no doubt that Mike has the most highly refined taijutsu of the four. This is due to his natural ability, love of training and experience, and creativity and intuition.

Raph, for example, is more of a demolitions expert and survival expert.

Leo is greater at strategems and organization.

Don has a skill of many forms of technologies and knows about surveillance.

Mike, in addition to his physical prowess, has great espionage and stealth-oriented skills.

This was all amply described in the rpg, you should really look it up.

[Karpo_007]

Your replying my post a little late.... Maybe you shuold read them before you reply... And maybe i cant prove that they didnt participate in the contet of rpg book, but you cant prove that they did.

Before you can prove that, the rpg isnt considered official info. It will take time untill i have read them all(im reading few per week) But i dont believe it is so clear taht Mike is the best fighter of them...But before i have read them i cant really say for sure, but i seriously doubt it. You seem obsessed on this matter.

And you can mix they philsophy all you want, It still just your theory, not a fact. Fact is, they all are good fighters, In some fight some do better than others. My poin is that you cant really single anyone out. Even if mike did win on some sparing sessions, it doesnt mean he's any better than others against real enemies.

[PWDESAI]

so who gives a crap if he's the most agile, it's how you use the skill that makes you good no? well then since mike is really really not a skilled fighter, that would make him the worst no? well then there you go....
END OF DISCUSSION! THEY WORK AS A TEAM IT'S BEEN STATED IN NUMEROUS CARTOON EPISODES!!!!!

[Karpo_007]

hmmm, this has nothing to do with cartoon...

[heretic888]

we must work with what information we have. and with the information we have concerning the 'mirage-based' mediums (rpg, new cartoon) Mike is described as the most agile/dexterous. he also beat raph a couple of times in sparring. that is all the information we have (especially since Mike is usually given a background character status along with Don in the comics).

so who gives a crap if he's the most agile, it's how you use the skill that makes you good no? well then since mike is really really not a skilled fighter, that would make him the worst no? well then there you go....


i dont know if i should correct your poor understanding of english or your complete ignorance regarding personal combat. and since when was Michelangelo not a skilled fighter? If i recall correctly, he easily defeated two foot ninja at once in issue 4 and then effortlessly beat a third that snuck up behind him.

[Kameko]

Good Lawd, you take this WAY too seriously, dude...

[Karpo_007]

In issue 4 he got seroius wounf in his hand and other turtles had to fight for him. And the new cartoon is mirage based but not other way around. It differs. Yeah again training i know how mike beat raphael but still, acording to comics, he has always done better against enemies than mike. I dont know does that make him better figter or not, it dosent matter.

Every one of them has uniques style of fighting, some do better in sparring, some against real opponents, still if one says that one of the turtles is better at fighting than others, it's just his opinnion and theory.

[PWDESAI]

man u just don't get the point do you... So what he beat up 2 ninja wow! omigod like they are that hard to beat up... In numerous issues mike gets the crap beaten out of him. I remember and archie issue, ok archie is stupid but anyways, he was kidnapped and the other turtles had to rescue him. That's how awesome he really is. What's michaelangelo good for?
Edit
PS ending sentances with no rocks, no?

[GreenWillow]

~Hmm...well regardless of all this Objective Empirical Data and Factual Accounts.... I love Leonardo.
Just cuz he's...you know...Leonardo.

~GW...love needs no reason...... :P

[heretic888]

i noticed you guys so accurately account when Michaleangelo was at a disadvantage but when Raphael or Leonardo (which was much more often) are at a disadvantage you are curiously silent. Even in the fight in issue 4 that you are referencing, Leonardo's head was gashed open, Donatello's staff was all but destroyed, and Raphael was knocked off a building. Oh yeah, they are SOOOO much better than Mike..... :roll:

tell me... who was it that was defeated and captured by karai and her ninja? leonardo

tell me.... who was it that was defeated by the shredder elite and had his ass saved by leonardo? raphael.

tell me... who was it that was knocked off a building in a battle with the robot baxter stockman, and subsequently captured by the DARPA? raphael.

tell me... who was it that was defeated by michelangelo TWICE in sparring? raphael.

tell me... who was it in issue 5 that was hurt by a Federatio soldier's gunshot? Raphael.

tell me... who was it in the same battle that, even though his arm was injured, he was NOT injured by any Federation soldiers? Michelangelo.

so, tell me.... what justification do you have that Mike is 'always hurt' when i can only recall it happening once... MAYBE twice... in all the storyarchs written by Eastman and Laird?? it seems that Raphael is the one always getting injured, probably due to his idiotic hot-headedness.

selective memory is not a good quality.

[Karpo_007]

In the issue 4 Leos' head wound didnt affect his fighting, unlike Michelangelo's.

No one else around here isn't so obsessed with the thing. As i said many times before, all of them got injured sometimes. But to abyoen else, it's not a big deal. No matter what I or someone else tells you, you dont seem to give up.

Poin this time: In diffrent storys diffre turtles fought better or got injured. None of the stories clearly state that one turtle is any better than another. And unless you can prove that Laird or Eastman were the ones who did the profiles in the rpg book, it doesnt count. They have only said that they did the artwork, if you can prove that they affected the content il accept your theory, but before that it's just your opinnion. PERIOID.

[heretic888]

besides, who gets hurt in what battle really doesnt matter. most of that is a matter of luck and chance. who is to say that if mike and raph had switched places in that battle in issue 4 that either one would have done any better than another??? its ultimately up to chance as to who get hurt or not....

most of the time, either NONE of the turtles get hurt or ALL of the turtles get hurt. Raph gets hurt quite often, but that is because he tries to do everything himself (a trait Leonardo also shares, but to a lesser degree), without fighitng with his brothers.

And, if i recall correctly, it was Mike that spent most of his freetime training when they were at the farmhouse together, not Raphael.

Don't you just find it too 'coincidental' that Mike is described as the most agile and dexterous in both the rpg and the new animated series which ARE BOTH HEAVILY MIRAGE BASED and yet you think somehow in the comic he isnt??? I think you are forgetting how important the comic and rpg were to each other in the early 80's........ almost every tmnt fan at the time had both of them, they kinda went together (hell, mirage even made these little role-playing figurines thingies for the rpg). Besides, Pete has been HEAVILY involved with the new animate series... why would he have them make Mike as 'the most talented and athletic' if he wasnt??

Besides, I actually know about martial arts and I know about ninjutsu. I can assure you the actual movements Mike does in the Eastman and Laird Mirage series are MUCH more skilled and fluid than the others, although Leo is a close second.

All the turtles have strengths and weaknesses, and special skills, that are not elaborated on in the comic. Why? Well, probably because the early tmnt fans were pretty much expected to have gotten into the rpg at least a little bit. If you want a really good comparison of which turtle is better or more skilled at what, i would suggest looking up the rpg. They have good character descriptions as well....

[Karpo_007]

Yeah i can believe mike is the most agile. Still earlier you spoke like Mike was somehow far superior to the others. Still the one who trains the most is Leonardo. That is clear. Michelangelo also trains but has hobboes like writing. Raphael is the most motivated to hurt their enemies, and Donatello the natrual smart guy.

It all depends on stories wich tyrtles are more succesfull, and stories is what makes the character. They have trained to be a team, and that is when they work best, not alone. Good example is issue 1.

[heretic888]

As i said many times before, all of them got injured sometimes.

As I recall, you said that Michelangelo gets hurt the most, not that 'it depends on the situation'.

No matter what I or someone else tells you, you dont seem to give up.


funny, i could say the same thing about you. you havent changed your mind even though i have given a LOT more 'evidence' supporting my postion than you have yours. why would i change my mind for your postion, when you have only one battle in one issue of the story backing it up (and i cited MANY other battles that would support my position).

None of the stories clearly state that one turtle is any better than another.

Actually, only Mike and Leo were the only ones able to injure Shredder in the first issue on one-on-one. Mike beat Raph fairly easily, which angered Raphael a great deal ("You cant beat me, Mike. Not now, not ever!" "Oh, really? You're too cocky, Raph. Pride goeth before a fall, buddy" Good advice). And if i recall correctly in the Juliet's Revenge (which wasnt really written by Eastman or Laird, but still) that Mike "knows he's the best there is". In the River storyarch, Splinter also references Raph as the "weakest" of his students (although i think he is talking about 'spiritual' strength). In the River, Mike is also cited as having the quickest reflexes and movements of them all. Need I also remind you that Mike was the only one in the Image series that didnt end up getting mangled?? :D


And unless you can prove that Laird or Eastman were the ones who did the profiles in the rpg book, it doesnt count. They have only said that they did the artwork, if you can prove that they affected the content il accept your theory, but before that it's just your opinnion. PERIOID.

I'll get back to you on that one. :evilgrin: besides, eastman and laird never 'said' they did the artwork for the rpgs. The only proof we have that they did is the art style and their signatures by the drawings. Trust me, if you read the rpg profiles you probably wouldnt be questioning all this: they have a VERY accurate portrayal of the characters' personalities.

[terran631]

Just a quick little interjection..I am like GW..I like Leo doesn't really matter why. But that was the orignal topic of the thread...of course..who am I to say anything about going off topic... :D
However...just remember this phrase and it will help quite a bit before this "debate" gets outta hand

"Agree to disagree"

Bye now :)

[heretic888]

Yeah i can believe mike is the most agile. Still earlier you spoke like Mike was somehow far superior to the others.

Umm.... i hate to break this to you, but in ninjutsu (what the turtles train in), superior agility and dexterity coupled with superior creativity DOES MEAN that you will be a better fighter. THAT IS WHY i said he is the best fighter, because he is the most creative and the most dexterous.

Ninpo taijutsu (the ninja's empty-handed fighting art) is based on utilizing relaxed, natural, flowing coordination of the entire body in motion as a single unit. In other words, agility. Mike's personality and attitude to life also make him more likely to progress in ninjutsu than the others. This may surpise you, but 'dedication' and 'devotion' are not as important in ninpo as actually loving and enjoying the art.

Still the one who trains the most is Leonardo. That is clear. Michelangelo also trains but has hobboes like writing.

I dunno, Mike seemed awfully into the training when they were in the farmhouse and in issue 19 (Raph skulks, don tinkers and mike trains). :P

Yes, Mike is into creative writing (a fact that is COINCIDENTALLY ONLY revealed in the rpg. hmmmm... :roll: ), but in ninpo you are expected to develop bunbu, a knowledge of ALL the arts, martial or otherwise. If Mike was not into other arts besides ninpo, he would in fact be being very un-ninja like. Single-minded obsession with the martial arts only would lead to limited growth (that explains raph quite a bit).



Raphael is the most motivated to hurt their enemies

A weakness that can be exploited by an intelligent opponent.

Donatello the natrual smart guy.


Intelligence often has little to do with fighting and self-defense.

They have trained to be a team, and that is when they work best, not alone. Good example is issue 1.

damn skippy :P

[heretic888]

i actually like all the turtles, though.

Mike is my favorite more for his personality and character symbolism than anything else. He also has the most 'ninja' approach to life.

Fighting isnt everything, of course. I am just trying to stop the perpetuation of lies that Mike is a 'worthless' fighter or that he 'always get hurts'. IF any of the turtles is a 'best fighter', it would be Mike due to his physical abilities, attitude, and creativity and intuition. But, if there is not a 'best fighter' then he still has the best attitude and approach to follow.

To each his (or her) own, i suppose.

[heretic888]

in case you guys hadnt noticed, i really enjoy this sort of thing. it keeps the board interesting, i think! :lol:

[terran631]

<Yes, Mike is into creative writing (a fact that is COINCIDENTALLY ONLY revealed in the rpg. hmmmm... :roll: )>

Okay at the risk of just killing my own advice and Heretic I ask that you not shove a whole bunch of stuff down my throat because this is a simple question/ rebuttal but wasn't there a comic by Mirage that had Mike writing out a whole story and then at the end asks Klunk what he thinks of it so far?? If I'm wrong..sorry. If I'm not..well..that's an example of Mike's writing not found in the RPG

[Karpo_007]

Nice to argue with you. But as i said earlier I have allolume 1 one +speacials and suchs but havent got time to read them much yet. If i had i could proably give you more examples.

Im pretty sure that they all get beaten up equally, In the first issues mike more than others, still i think that it is pointless to try to say who's the best in training matches, fighting real opponents etc. It all depends on stories and writers.

[heretic888]

yes, that is the "Mike is a wandering ninja in ancient japan" story (i forget which issue). one of my favorties, actually....

but that was written mostly by Eric Talbot (Kevin Eastman helped out a little, i think) not the creators.

and besides, it was FINALLY revealed in the comics that Mike was into creative writing after it had been listed as one of his Secondary Skills in his rpg profile... for... oh.... FIVE YEARS!

As I said before, get into the rpg. It really reveals certain 'special skills' that each tmnt is good at that you probably dont know (Raph for example is the most skilled at demolitions/explosives, as well as tracking and wilderness survival).

[heretic888]

Nice to argue with you. But as i said earlier I have allolume 1 one +speacials and suchs but havent got time to read them much yet. If i had i could proably give you more examples.


Well, I HAVE read them all... and i can assure you that Raph tends to get whupped up the most due to his impulsiveness. Mike got 'beat up more' in ONE issue of the earlier comics.. not most of them by far.

But I agree it mostly depends on the situation. Regardless, Mike still has the greatest 'physical prowess' of the four of them.

[Karpo_007]

It was issue 17. Nice issue by the way.

[heretic888]

yup, one of my personal faves. i liked the 'hall of lost legends' story too.

[Karpo_007]

Might be true, But when they're fighting real opponents they all perform equally good, and that what's counts.

[Spike The Xenomorph]

R U Kiddin! Whenever I played a turtle game it HAD to Be Leo!

He's da coolest! Then Donnie, then Mike, then Raph(Sorry Raph. but your weapons need RANGE!)

[heretic888]

Might be true, But when they're fighting real opponents they all perform equally good, and that what's counts.


Hmm.... actually, Mike and Leo's movements tend to be the most graceful, the least energy-expending, and the most practical. Raph sure takes up a lot of energy with some of his moves. I'm suprised he doesnt tire himself out. Then again, he does like showing off........

R U Kiddin! Whenever I played a turtle game it HAD to Be Leo!

He's da coolest! Then Donnie, then Mike, then Raph(Sorry Raph. but your weapons need RANGE!)

Hey, we're not talkin about video games... we're talkin about real life... or comics, anyway. :P

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Oh. Sorry. lol

Uhhhhhhhhhh..... but Leo is still my fav & Raph, well, he is funny sometimes but usually he's nothing but a rude kid who is just TOO serious!

[Karpo_007]

Raph isn't really that fun... or did you mean the cartoon one?

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Cartoonie one.

[heretic888]

Raph isn't really that fun...

i dunno... Mike and Raph seemed to be having fun when they were kicking the s**t outta each other :P

[Watch the language, please. -- Azure]

[Karpo_007]

Hmmm, not exactly what i meant. His not a comedian like the cartoon one. he's more of a Hot headed loner...

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Some1 should slap him & let him no to quit being such a tightie!

Why does he always have to take his aggression out on Mikey?

+ Have any of you'ze ever played that 2-player streetfighter-like turtles game?

[Karpo_007]

Do you mean Tournament fighters?

[Spike The Xenomorph]

That's it! Know any cheats or anything?

[Ninja Turtles Cartoon Fan]

Have any of you'ze ever played that 2-player streetfighter-like turtles game?

Yes, I've played that before. The first time my friends and I got a hold of it, we kicked the heck out of each other's Turtle for hours. I didn't recognize some of the characters, however. I am going to guess and say that they were from the comics.

"Calm down." - Shredder, from "Night of the Dark Turtle"

[Spike The Xenomorph]

I have played that game for over 6 months & I couldn't even beat the 1st enemy in the tournament!

[heretic888]

rising thunder! shining cutter! power drill! attack! :lol: :lol:

oh, i loved that game....

[Karpo_007]

Good thing is that chracters are pretty much from mirage comics.

[heretic888]

yup, karai and rat king are the big bad villians.

the basic 'story' and 'characters' seemed to be a mix of the archie and mirage comic series......

of course, i wouldnt expect to see Mike hurling green fireballs outta his mouth anytime soon in the comic.... but then again, you never know....

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Yeah but can you all please give me a few cheats or pointers on how to beat atleast that Shark guy?

[heretic888]

pick Michelangelo and just keep hurling Dragon Breaths at him and swinging the chucks (fierce punch). you'll win eventually.

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Allready tried that. He just blocks me & uses his throws.

[heretic888]

then use the distance of the chucks as an advantage. dont get so close.

oh, a friendly word of advice: if you are having trouble against Armaggon, there is no way in hell you will beat Karai.......

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Is that the name of Mr. Sharkie?

How do you perform Mike's attacks?

& Leo- he's my fav. Char!

[PWDESAI]

i noticed you guys so accurately account when Michaleangelo was at a disadvantage but when Raphael or Leonardo (which was much more often) are at a disadvantage you are curiously silent. Even in the fight in issue 4 that you are referencing, Leonardo's head was gashed open, Donatello's staff was all but destroyed, and Raphael was knocked off a building. Oh yeah, they are SOOOO much better than Mike..... :roll:

tell me... who was it that was defeated and captured by karai and her ninja? leonardo

tell me.... who was it that was defeated by the shredder elite and had his ass saved by leonardo? raphael.

tell me... who was it that was knocked off a building in a battle with the robot baxter stockman, and subsequently captured by the DARPA? raphael.

tell me... who was it that was defeated by michelangelo TWICE in sparring? raphael.

tell me... who was it in issue 5 that was hurt by a Federatio soldier's gunshot? Raphael.

tell me... who was it in the same battle that, even though his arm was injured, he was NOT injured by any Federation soldiers? Michelangelo.

so, tell me.... what justification do you have that Mike is 'always hurt' when i can only recall it happening once... MAYBE twice... in all the storyarchs written by Eastman and Laird?? it seems that Raphael is the one always getting injured, probably due to his idiotic hot-headedness.

selective memory is not a good quality.

I don't know what i shoudl do first fix your grammar or make fun of you :wink:

[PWDESAI]

o btw if ur talking about snes, then pick don, and use his bo twirl it's the best attack in the whole game... that character is the newbie character

[heretic888]

here are Leonardo's special moves, since you are a Leo fan:

-Shining Cutter: down, down-forward, forward + any punch

-Endless Screw: down, down-back, back + any punch

-Roto Cutter: forward, down, down-forward + any punch

-Backflip: tap back twice in a row very rapidly

Millenium Wave: tap X (fierce punch) and A (fierce kick) at the same time when the green guage is full and flashing...

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Ohhhhhhhhhh 2 times, woopitydoo!

[Lisardo]

Leo without a doubt always has and always will be my favorite turtle. I dunno why exactly. He's nothing like me. But I guess I can say I've always admired him for his leadership, intellect, heroism, caring and kindness towards others. But I don't think Leo is loved the least by fans, I think it's usally Don. Or Don and Leo.

[HorseTechie]

Don is not least loved. Cyborg Don is... yeah. All the more reason I can have him to myself! :evilgrin:

O course, there are days I feel like Leo too. That's rather unusual to like someone like yourself, since they usually say opposites attract.

*nudges Herectic* You seem to come across like a Leo/Raph type yourself. :P

[Ninja Turtles Cartoon Fan]

When I was younger, the most popular Ninja Turtle in grade school was Michaelangelo. Everybody loved Michaelangelo. If any of the other three Turtles were your favorites, you were in the minority.

Now it seems as though all four Turtles are loved equally. Each Turtle has his own respective fan base.

"I've got it!"
"No, I've got it!"

Donatello and Leonardo, from "The Mean Machines"

[azure turtle]

yes, that is the "Mike is a wandering ninja in ancient japan" story (i forget which issue). one of my favorties, actually....
It was issue 17, called "Distractions." It's one of my favorites, too. ;)

[HorseTechie]

*clears throat* Yeah... I was a Mikey fan at one point in time too. The movie version of him was so funny.

*shuts up before this turns into a Mikey thread*

[Karpo_007]

*shuts up before this turns into a Mikey thread*

Too late, It already did long time ago...

[PWDESAI]

no it's an all turltes are equal thread :wink:

[Nickokapo]

I thought it was a leonardo thread :P

[Machias Banshee]

All the turtles are good, But Splinter can STILL kick their heinies into the next millenium.... :D

[Lisardo]

Well this is sorta related. It's more who April's favorite turtle is. So feel free to take my poll, and you'll see what I mean.

http://members.fortunecity.com/lisardo79/poll.html

[PWDESAI]

why woudl u say raph it's obviously leo, he gets mad at raph for being so angry.

[Nickokapo]

All the turtles are good, But Splinter can STILL kick their heinies into the next millenium.... :D
Yes i totally agree! :evilgrin:
Well this is sorta related. It's more who April's favorite turtle is. So feel free to take my poll, and you'll see what I mean.

http://members.fortunecity.com/lisardo79/poll.html
Cool, a poll!
I voted for mike, but i was thinking about the first movie :ohwell:
why woudl u say raph it's obviously leo, he gets mad at raph for being so angry.
Do you mean in the movie?yeah i remember that scene...still i think it's mike :D

[Nturtle]

All the turtles are good, But Splinter can STILL kick their heinies into the next millenium.... :D

RIGHT ON!!! splinter is the best ninja EVER and my favorite character http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/contrib/edoom/one_samuria.gif

[Karpo_007]

Well splinter is kinda old, I dont think he could beat the turtles, Neither i can ever think a fight between them.

[Nickokapo]

A samurai smilie!That is so cool :lol:

[GreenWillow]

~That was actually pretty hard. One could make an argument for any one of them. But I decided it was Raph, partly based on the first movie, and partly based on some Mirage bits and pieces, but mostly cuz Kevin identifies the most with Raphael and the original April was based on Kevin's first wife, so by extrapolation it must be so....heh....
How's that for one convoluted twisted bit of illogic? :D

........need...more coffee.......

~GW

[Machias Banshee]

Well splinter is kinda old, I dont think he could beat the turtles, Neither i can ever think a fight between them.


Hehehe, you ned to look at my new pic, "Pride vs. Ego" I think you might change your opinion..... :evilgrin:

[GreenWillow]

~Ok, Machias-- where is it?

~GW :)

[HorseTechie]

*snigger* That poll is tricky... I picked Leo cause I think Lisa was thinking of the cartoon Version (though, that's hard to say there). Early in the Mirage version, it seemed like it was Leo too, after he saved April from falling into the frozen lake.

But in the Movie... she liked Raph, with Mike as a second.

[Kali]

Well splinter is kinda old, I dont think he could beat the turtles, Neither i can ever think a fight between them.
Splinter has shown that he could take down all four Turtles if need be. Remember, he has much more experience than they do.

Gotta check out the poll, now.

[Nturtle]

i agree with Kali and Machias... his stanima is less then good but his speed, strenghnth, skill aand prowess outweighs everyone in the entire TMNT universe!!! :D

[Karpo_007]

Experience, yes, but his not that strong physically. I havent seen him in a single fight in Mirage, exept for the mousers. Of course i havent read too much yet. Next im reading issue #8. All tough i have read the scans up to issue 21.

[Lisardo]

No HT I mean all the TMNT universes for the poll. But yeah of course I picked Leo. With April, it's hard to say exactly who her fav turtle is. Esp. when you look at all the universes.

[Nturtle]

Splinter is preety strong too, in the cartoon he can throw a turtle at least 15 feet in the air :o and also in the CGI pilot he effortlessly beats all of them. In mirage... hmmmm.... I think I saw a scan of him fighting some dude once but I don't remember... :-?

[Karpo_007]

There probably is storie where splinter fights with someone, i just havent read them yet.

[Nturtle]

yeah I think i coud find the issue number somewhere, i think its somewhere round 14 or 12

[Karpo_007]

Il tell when i read the issue. next im reading #8.

[Storm Wolf]

I dunno but it seems to me that Raphael gets dogged the most, for his hot- headedness of coarse, but I think thats what makes me like him the best....that bad A$$ way of behaving, that untamable rude attitude, even though I must admit he has carried it a bit far in the past.

[heretic888]

Well splinter is kinda old, I dont think he could beat the turtles, Neither i can ever think a fight between them.

Not quite. Age has nothing to do with combat skill in ninjutsu. In fact, to quote Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi: "The older a ninja gets, the stronger he gets."

Why is this, you may ask? Simply because effective ninpo taijutsu is based upon refined, relaxed, flowing natural body movement NOT rigid, crude, bone and muscle strength and speed. That is also one of the reasons I proclaimed Mike to be the best taijutsu-ka of the four of them.

The ninja's taijutsu is based largely upon the principle of ken tai ichi jo ("the body and weapon are one"). This principle means that the ninja prefers full-bodied, momentum-building natural movement over crude 'snapping' movements utlizing only a single limb. The ninja punches or kicks with his ENTIRE BODY behind the attack in a very relaxed flowing dynamic. In this respect, it is VERY similar to tai chi.

A ninja's 'skill' and 'power' are based upon continually refining natural body movement and physical agility and dexterity (pssst, Mikey's strengths!! :D ). Ninjutsu techniques, when properly performed, do NOT require muscle exertion or overt aerobic efforts. The question of physical stamina is largely meaningless, as is the question of physical strength and speed.

As the ninja gains more skill, precision and accuracy against anatomically weak or vital points on the human body coupled with full-bodied relaxed movement REPLACE muscular strength. As the ninja gains more skill, sensitivity to distance and timing and angling REPLACE physical speed. As the ninja gains more skill, intuitive command and creative response REPLACE mechanical strategy.

Tell me, is Splinter really as 'inferior' to his students as you think??

[Karpo_007]

Muscle power is neede in order to use a weapon. But it's not just muscles, Whwn you get older, your speed decreases. An old man is not as agile as young one. Of course we will never know what would happen if there were a fight...

[Nturtle]

well... this is a tough one... on one hand we know that in old age, mitochondria deteriate, musscle mass goes away and such but on the other hand we have the idea of ninjitsu as the flowing relaxed movements of the body with precisness rather then utter strenghth....

[Karpo_007]

Ninjas get old too, no one can escape that. Whilst Splinter could probably deal easily with some ordinaray thug, Another Well trained fighter, or one of the turtles, Like Leonardo would not been such obivous case.

[Kali]

Say whatever you want, I'd rather go up in a fight with one of the Turtles than Splinter. It only takes one, single blow to take someone out, and it doesn't even need to be a hard one. Bet Splinter knows all those pressure point tricks.

[Karpo_007]

Heh, Might be...

[Spike The Xenomorph]

good thing Xenomorphs have no pressure points!

I can beat him I bet!

I know, uhhhhhhhhhhhhh streetfighting, & I can beat Marvel vs. Capcom w/ Roll!

[Karpo_007]

Maybe not, But Pulse Rifle will do the trick just fine!

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Pulse rifle shmulse rifle! That is the weakest gun that any1 has ever used against me! I remember the last person who used 1 on me, used 3 chips & 2 gernades, didn' even scratch me!

[Karpo_007]

LOL :lol: It's sad they havent made a good Alien movie after Aliens. Alien 3 was watchable, but Resurrection :oops: I dont even need to go there...

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Why must those humans make such scary movies about humans killing my bretheren!

I heard the white Xenomorph was one ugly thing!

[Karpo_007]

White?

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Yup! Ripley gives birth to a White Xenomorph! What a horrible thing to even THINK of!

[Karpo_007]

Hmmm, Do you mean the Humanoid Alien?

[Spike The Xenomorph]

that's it!

[Karpo_007]

REALLY stupid...

[Spike The Xenomorph]

what's stupid?

[Karpo_007]

The humanoid alien thing... And the whole movie.

[Spike The Xenomorph]

oh, agreed!

[Eye of Sarnath]

I like Leo the least (try saying that 5 times fast!) 'cause I can't relate to him. Raph's my fave, because he's the one I'm most similar to, personality wise. Yeah, I'm a hothead.

[Karpo_007]

Almost 4am and school day tomorrow... Gotta go to sleep. luckily my first classes are at 11.

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Mine are at 10

[prowler4]

Leo and Mike are tied for first in my book. :wink:

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Some punk was harassing my gf!

[heretic888]

Muscle power is neede in order to use a weapon. But it's not just muscles, Whwn you get older, your speed decreases. An old man is not as agile as young one. Of course we will never know what would happen if there were a fight...

Really? Well, allow me to introduce you to Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, 34th Grandmaster of the Togakure-ryu Ninjutsu tradition. Yeah, you see, he's running about 70 now but he moves more gracefully, more quickly, and can produce more power than his students 30 years younger than him!

MOST old men are not as powerful or as fast as they once were because they have not learned to focus INNER strength (ki) and they neglected to stretch during their lives. Such is NOT the case with Dr. Hatsumi or Splinter!

Besides, ninpo utilizes flowing, full-body dynamism when fighting with OR without weaponry! Seventy-year old Hatsumi can still use a battlefield bisento (Japanese halberd) with the best of them!!! You'd be surpised how much power one can generate when you use the WHOLE body instead of just an arm or leg, especially when the inner power of ki is involved!!! Mucle, schmucle!!

well... this is a tough one... on one hand we know that in old age, mitochondria deteriate, musscle mass goes away and such but on the other hand we have the idea of ninjitsu as the flowing relaxed movements of the body with precisness rather then utter strenghth....

Muscle mass does decrease with age, true, but then again ninpo taijutsu does not rely on muscular exertion to perform the movements. Seriously, there was once a man in his 80's that could perform ninjutsu quite skillfully!! Full-bodied, momentum-building, flowing, relaxed, natural movement is what characterizes the ninja fighting style not physical strength and speed. Like Dr. Hatsumi said, the older a ninja gets the stronger he gets. Taijutsu is what is important, not weight-lifting.

Say whatever you want, I'd rather go up in a fight with one of the Turtles than Splinter. It only takes one, single blow to take someone out, and it doesn't even need to be a hard one. Bet Splinter knows all those pressure point tricks.

Yes, but the turtles know pressure point fighting as well. All strikes in ninjutsu are aimed a pressure point of some kind or another. Regardless, Splinter is undoubtedly much more agile and much more powerful than his students.....

good thing Xenomorphs have no pressure points!

Unless they are robots, xenomorphs would have pressure points (praticularly with a humanoid anatomy). All living creatures have pressure points.

Pulse rifle shmulse rifle! That is the weakest gun that any1 has ever used against me! I remember the last person who used 1 on me, used 3 chips & 2 gernades, didn' even scratch me!

If I recall correctly, a shotgun blast was capable of blowing a xenomorph's/alien's head off.....

[Kameko]

Heretic, does your train of thought have a caboose?

[heretic888]

depends on what i had for breakfast.... :D

seriously though, just trying to prove a point against some really ignorant misconceptions.....

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Ignorant my eye! nothing is more painful then to allow there "humanoids" talk smack about my species!

1) Due to our thick exoskeleton, Xenomorphs HAVE NO PRESSURE POINTS!

2)I have been hit by friggin gernade rounds & they are a heck of alot more powerful than a shotgun round will EVER be!

3) What humanoid anatomy? Do I look like a human to you?

If yes: "Buy some bloody glasses for you need your vision checked!"

If no: "Good! And it had better stay that way!"

[heretic888]

1) Due to our thick exoskeleton, Xenomorphs HAVE NO PRESSURE POINTS!

how stupid. this may suprise you, but no creature is completely armored EVERYWHERE. if that were so, then there would be next to no mobility of movement. In the natural creases and folds of even the most powerful of armor, there is a weak point.

2)I have been hit by friggin gernade rounds & they are a heck of alot more powerful than a shotgun round will EVER be!

if you recall the movie "Aliens", a xenomorph which was trying to break into a marine transport (or something) had a shotgun put up to his face and when the trigger was pulled the face was no longer there. Of course, then there was the whole acid issue.........

3) What humanoid anatomy? Do I look like a human to you?

yes. bipedal posture, opposable thumbs, approximately five digits on both hands and feet, humanoid physique...... how much more do you need?

[Spike The Xenomorph]

how stupid. this may suprise you, but no creature is completely armored EVERYWHERE. if that were so, then there would be next to no mobility of movement. In the natural creases and folds of even the most powerful of armor, there is a weak point.

I think I would know for I am a Xenomorph buddy! Here *gives heretic a rocket launcher w/ 2 rounds.* Shoot me with this! If that doesn't convince you * hands him a flame thower w/ full feul* use this then!

if you recall the movie "Aliens", a xenomorph which was trying to break into a marine transport (or something) had a shotgun put up to his face and when the trigger was pulled the face was no longer there. Of course, then there was the whole acid issue.........

1) Acid? What acid?
2) Any movie that makes fun of my bretheren is not worth watching! *thinks to himself* <<I knew we should of signed our contracts with George Lucas!>>

yes. bipedal posture, opposable thumbs, approximately five digits on both hands and feet, humanoid physique...... how much more do you need?

So Oola the twi'lek, Watto the Toydarian, Sebulba, & those Reploids, eg. Megaman have those same abilities! Does that make THEM human?

[Kameko]

Heretic, do they ever shut-up on your planet? :roll:

Give the guy a break, it's his fantasy, not yours. It doesn't have to be perfect or logical. If logic were an issue, the turtles would have never come into 'existence' in the first place. I mean, think about it.

[Machias Banshee]

Yes, please....

[Spike The Xenomorph]

What fantasy, Kameko?

[Kameko]

:roll: :lol: Spike, you're scary. Don't make me sic my brothers on you. Raph! Leo!


(I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! :wink: )

[Machias Banshee]

:lol: :D Welcome to the club....

[Kameko]

:D :rolling: :thyper:

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Turtles!!!!!

*Runs around in circles screaming like a little girl*

Not turtles!

[Kameko]

:ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :ttwisted: :lol:

[Spike The Xenomorph]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHH!

Oh, no! Not again! -Halo

[Edit: Shortened to prevent table from stretching at 800x600. --Krang]

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, a shotgun can kill Xenomorph, but because of the acid blood, some range and a Pulse rifle(or a smart gun) is the right way to go.

[Spike The Xenomorph]

ya wanna bet? Get a "smart gun" & try to shoot me with it!

I've killed more predators & marines than the number of Barny the Purple Dinosaur they've had replaced!

[Karpo_007]

Predators...? I tought we were talkin about movies, not games...

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Huh?
I'm talkin real-life buddy!

Movies over exxagerate too much!

& Games? Don't even get me started on that one!

[Karpo_007]

Allright... :wink:

Ok a new topic. Who would win Splinter or Shredder? Of course Heretic will come telling stuff about super gramps, but i think that would be a close call.
After all, it took all four of the Turtles to beat him.(The wormy shredder dosen't count in this one)

[Spike The Xenomorph]

That would be a real good fight but I would honestly have to say Shredder. Sorry Splinter fans,
I'm one too but I am being honest here.

[Kali]

Now that I think about it, I realized something. Splinter does not have direct ninjutsu training. He learned indirectly from watching Yoshi. Like one of us learning from a movie.

Of course that's not to say he didn't studied books and such after he was mutated, we see the books on his shelves.

[Karpo_007]

I always tought that he learned the physical part from yoshi and the spiritual from the books. Thats what i've tought anyway...

[Reznorite420]

Turtles!!!!!

*Runs around in circles screaming like a little girl*

Not turtles!That's kinda inaccurate; my sister loved the TMNT just as much as I did when we were growing up :wink: :wink: :wink:

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Turtles are SCARY!

[GreenWillow]

~You guys are pickin' on Heretic....just cuz he can argue a point so well. Ok, maybe into the ground sometimes, but I betcha they love him on the debate team!
But seriously, he's right about older men who've studied martial arts for years and years; it seems their abilities only increase with time. And this isn't limited to ninjutsu, which frankly, I've never seen demonstrated "live". I'm thinking of the 80-year old Grand Master of the school I studied in. Whoa.... kicked arse on all the 40-year old punks and wiped the floor with the 20-year olds.... :D

~GW

[Karpo_007]

I never disagredd with him, i juts wondered... But a well trained 40 year old must be more agile than a 70 years old man. Hu-mans grow older, they can be in good shape, but never as good as they were younger.

[heretic888]

Allright...

Ok a new topic. Who would win Splinter or Shredder? Of course Heretic will come telling stuff about super gramps, but i think that would be a close call.
After all, it took all four of the Turtles to beat him.(The wormy shredder dosen't count in this one)

Yes, I will tell you stuff about 'super gramps'. Splinter HAS been training decades longer than Oroku Saki, and that can mean a LOT. But the REAL reason as to why Splinter would defeat Saki is spirit. A ninjutsu practitioner whose mind is clouded with personal desire, greed, anger, and bitterness will be EXTREMELY limited in his ability to adapt to the situation as needed due to his own personal 'demons'. That is the significance of the martial arts and Zen concept of 'no mind' and 'emptiness'. Shredder (and Raphael) is too limited by his own personal desires.

By the way, why doesnt the 'wormy' Shredder count? Is it because the turtles had more training by that time and it took only one to defeat him?? 'Wormy' Shredder was just as much the fighter as the original....

That would be a real good fight but I would honestly have to say Shredder. Sorry Splinter fans,
I'm one too but I am being honest here.

Well, look at it this way: which one of them died.....TWICE?!


Now that I think about it, I realized something. Splinter does not have direct ninjutsu training. He learned indirectly from watching Yoshi. Like one of us learning from a movie.

Of course that's not to say he didn't studied books and such after he was mutated, we see the books on his shelves.

Actually, as suprising as this may seem, Splinter learned ninpo in EXACTLY the same way a human would. Basically, a ninjutsu class goes like this: the Shidoshi (teacher of the warrior ways of enlightenment) performs a certain waza (technique) or kata (form) and then the rest of the class tries to figure it out. Sure, feedback from the Shidoshi is included, but Yoshi probably made a few comments or two to Splinter when he was imitating him. In ninpo, you are too a large degree expected to figure this stuff out on your own. The sensei is but a guide.

Books and videos can only act as a suplement to actual training. No doubt they would help Splinter clarify some points of practice, but he couldn't actually 'learn' the art from them

I always tought that he learned the physical part from yoshi and the spiritual from the books. Thats what i've tought anyway...

The so-called 'physical' and 'spiritual' parts of ninpo are not broken up like that. The 'internal' and 'spiritual' training is, to a very large degree, IDENTICAL with the external, physical training. It is through the physical practice of taijutsu, of coordinating intention, breath control, and physical movement in perfect harmony that the ninja's 'spiritual growth' proceeds. Think of ninpo taijutsu as a form of moving meditation.

Of course, there ARE certain meditative exercises meant to suplement the physical taijutsu training, but these simply broaden or 'add to' the ninja's overall capabilities. They do NOT provide 'new' spiritual capabilities the ninja was not already exposed to in the physical training. It is meant to suplement or 'add to' the training, NOT to complement or 'complete' the training.

Besides, contrary to popular opinion, you can't learn spiritual anything from a book........

~You guys are pickin' on Heretic....just cuz he can argue a point so well. Ok, maybe into the ground sometimes, but I betcha they love him on the debate team!
But seriously, he's right about older men who've studied martial arts for years and years; it seems their abilities only increase with time. And this isn't limited to ninjutsu, which frankly, I've never seen demonstrated "live". I'm thinking of the 80-year old Grand Master of the school I studied in. Whoa.... kicked arse on all the 40-year old punks and wiped the floor with the 20-year olds....

Thank you, GW. :P

I never disagredd with him, i juts wondered... But a well trained 40 year old must be more agile than a 70 years old man. Hu-mans grow older, they can be in good shape, but never as good as they were younger.

No, a 70 year old martial arts master that has been training for DECADES LONGER will be much more skilled and much more agile than his juniors, provided that the martial art in question is one that emphasizes flow over 'strength'.

Never be as good as they were younger? Tell that to Dr. Hatsumi's training partners as he send them flying through the air. I can assure you he wasn't that powerful 30 years ago!!! :D

[GreenWillow]

~I fear that is a very popular myth. I think people tend to "give up" as they age -- sometimes *because* of that belief. Check out who it is that usually wins those marathon endurance runs-- it's the 40-50 year olds, not the 20- year olds.
The stereotype pervades society, but the reality is that *if* someone trains to the degree that we are talking about here-- ie: a GrandMaster in a martial art form, they tend to get better with age. And I mean if they *train*, not if they sit around smoking cigarettes eating Krispy Kreams and watching Oprah....heh...

~GW

[heretic888]

absolutely, GW.

The reason why people begin to get all creaky and 'sloth-like' as they age is simply because THEY DONT STRETCH OUT!! I cannot begin emphasize the importance of flexibility training. Soo much of people's problems, both young and old, could be helped with a lil' stretching!!

But as for the skill and agility, in ninpo you dont have to engage in constant uninterrupted training to maintain your level of skill. Since ninjutsu is based upon refining natural body movement and creative response to conflict and NOT utilizing 'athletic' qualities. Sure, a ninja can get fat and old.... but his taijutsu will still be just as good and he can still break bricks with his pinky!!! :D

[HorseTechie]

*also thinks of Yoda kicking butt in Ep II* heheh.. plus, when one has utilzed the Force well, that added extra energy makes punch go a long way. :P

[heretic888]

ummm.... something like that, yeah......

[Karpo_007]

Yeg yoda is a proof of that olde dont always get weeker. He was almost 800 hundred years old in episode 2! :wink:

Sounds unbelievable, but maybe if you train your whole life, you could stay in shape... Actually my 72 year old grandfather went to a karate course(no kidding!) But he hurt his back and had to quit... Still his in pretty good shape nowdays...

[Spike The Xenomorph]

& hwe could lift an X-Wing!

[HorseTechie]

Hai! Wise man say: must trust da Force!

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Do or do not! Now THAT'S a good question!

[heretic888]

uhhh yeah.......

[Spike The Xenomorph]

:)

[GreenWillow]

~Well as long as we're singing Hail to the Elders, let us not forget Mr. Miyagi.

~GW...I like this Honoring the Elders stuff.... :lol:

[HorseTechie]

Well of course, that's what Leo also fans do... Respect thy Elders!

This is another funny play one waords... the director for this is Leonard Ho.
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0075788

I wonder what Bruce Lee would have been like if he lived to a ripe old age....

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Woah! If Shredder is Aroko, then who is Splinter?

& who is Mr. Miyagi?

~You guys are pickin' on Heretic....just cuz he can argue a point so well. Ok, maybe into the ground sometimes, but I betcha they love him on the debate team!
But seriously, he's right about older men who've studied martial arts for years and years; it seems their abilities only increase with time. And this isn't limited to ninjutsu, which frankly, I've never seen demonstrated "live". I'm thinking of the 80-year old Grand Master of the school I studied in. Whoa.... kicked arse on all the 40-year old punks and wiped the floor with the 20-year olds....

I never dissagreed w/ Heretic on this either, I know exactly what u r talkin about! U should've seen Yoda in Ep 2! I am just saying that Shredder would've won THIS battle. Remember the ep where they switched bodies? Who was kickin the daylights out of who? In the TMNT movie, the robot mask thing, who sucessfully kidnapped who?

[Karpo_007]

Umm, the question wans't about the cartoon...

[heretic888]

agreed, karpo. it was not. :|

Shredder is Oroku Saki. His older brother was Oroku Nagi. Splinter's master was Hamato Yoshi. Yoshi's wife was Teng Shen. Splinter is Splinter.

Seeing as how Mr. Miyagi primarily did a form of hard karate, I sincerely doubt he would have any potent martial skills into old age (since those systems usually emphasize strength, speed, and physical 'conditioning').

[Nturtle]

Yeg yoda is a proof of that olde dont always get weeker. He was almost 800 hundred years old in episode 2! :wink:

Sounds unbelievable, but maybe if you train your whole life, you could stay in shape... Actually my 72 year old grandfather went to a karate course(no kidding!) But he hurt his back and had to quit... Still his in pretty good shape nowdays...

Yoda rocks!!!!!!! :D
awesome, I know this 92 year old guy who looks old and weak but is really twice as strong as a normal 20 year old!!! :o he lives out on this farm and does all the work him self, once when cuting down a tree, the tree fell on him and he couldn't get out and was stuck for 2 hours until he got pulled out entirely unscathed!!

[PWDESAI]

i remember this time this thread was on topic
sigh
:wink:

[heretic888]

people who train in 'toy' martial arts will lose thier skills with age (unless they train as hard as they can 24/7).

people who train in true martial arts progress with age (we call it ki, or spirit).

its thats simple.

[Mouse]

all i can say is that Leonardo is smart, studly, and superior in combat when it counts. i've always been a huge Leo fan and blue will always be my fave color!!! :D

but all the turtles have won my heart so there is no real debate over who i like better...except Leo!!! :D

[GreenWillow]

~Hee hee-- now see? THAT'S a Leo fan! Blind Adoration. The best kind. :D
Hi Mouse! You know the Secret Leophile Handshake, right?

~GW

[Karpo_007]

all i can say is that Leonardo is smart, studly, and superior in combat when it counts. i've always been a huge Leo fan and blue will always be my fave color!!! :D

but all the turtles have won my heart so there is no real debate over who i like better...except Leo!!! :D

All turtles wear Red Bandana,,, :sweatdro:

[Sparvid]

I was going to say: "Blue? What does that have to do with anything?" :lol:

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Umm, the question wans't about the cartoon.

wHAT R U TALKIN ABOUT? (Sorry, caps lock button got stuck fer a sec!)

[Karpo_007]

What? :-?

[PWDESAI]

it could be off the cartoon the comic or whereever... i mean you don't like a turtle just cuz of what's in mirage and what's not....

[Karpo_007]

Yeah this dicussion is really off tracks... I like all TMNT universe, but the Mirage one is closest to my heart.

[Spike The Xenomorph]

You still didn't answer my Q!

[Karpo_007]

What was the question?

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Woah! If Shredder is Aroko, then who is Splinter?

& who is Mr. Miyagi?

~You guys are pickin' on Heretic....just cuz he can argue a point so well. Ok, maybe into the ground sometimes, but I betcha they love him on the debate team!
But seriously, he's right about older men who've studied martial arts for years and years; it seems their abilities only increase with time. And this isn't limited to ninjutsu, which frankly, I've never seen demonstrated "live". I'm thinking of the 80-year old Grand Master of the school I studied in. Whoa.... kicked arse on all the 40-year old punks and wiped the floor with the 20-year olds....

I never dissagreed w/ Heretic on this either, I know exactly what u r talkin about! U should've seen Yoda in Ep 2! I am just saying that Shredder would've won THIS battle. Remember the ep where they switched bodies? Who was kickin the daylights out of who? In the TMNT movie, the robot mask thing, who sucessfully kidnapped who?

[Karpo_007]

Splinter was hamato yoshis pet rat. Oroku saki was shredder.

Mr. Miyagi some sort of old martial arts master.

[Kingkapong]

i' like leo the best. coming in close second is mike and tied for third are don and ralph (and i quite enjoyed metalhead at points :lol: )

[Mouse]

~Hee hee-- now see? THAT'S a Leo fan! Blind Adoration. The best kind. :D
Hi Mouse! You know the Secret Leophile Handshake, right?

~GW
Oops! I forgot the handshake :goofygri: Leave it to me to be a goose about that :P

What can I say? Leo has it all going on. Forget Lotus! Mouse and GreenWillow know how to treat this turtle right!!! :wink:

GreenWillow nice to finally meet you :)

I guess this means we have to share Leo :D

[GreenWillow]

~Alas, yes, we shall have to share Leo, Mouse. However I'm quite sure there is enough of him to go around. :tcool:

There are actually quite a few Leo fans about, I have discovered, or maybe they've discovered me... My second fave is Raph. Yes, I have strayed on occasion, but I always come back to Leonardo. :D

Oh, and Mr. Miyagi was the cryptic- but- wise -old Master in The Karate Kid movies, Karpo.

~GW

[Karpo_007]

Oh, now i know the guy!

[Mouse]

~Alas, yes, we shall have to share Leo, Mouse. However I'm quite sure there is enough of him to go around. :tcool:

There are actually quite a few Leo fans about, I have discovered, or maybe they've discovered me... My second fave is Raph. Yes, I have strayed on occasion, but I always come back to Leonardo.~GW

I tend to be a big fan of each, but Donnatello and Leonardo are my big faves....BUT LEO IS MINE!!! With respect to sharing him :D

[Storm Owl]

Leo's my fave 2!

[Mouse]

:o WHAT?!? :o
Leo is going to be one heavily used turtle if this keeps up.
But that turtle is a ladies man :wink:

[Spike The Xenomorph]

He's probably just saying that fer he thinks yer pic is cute! lol
(He HATES it when I do that)

[Mouse]

all i can say is leo is getting quite a fangirl following from this thread

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Uhhhh.......................Ol' Storm Owl is a guy.

[azure turtle]

Uhhhh.......................Ol' Storm Owl is a guy.
.... LOL!! :lol:

Heh... I know how that feels. And I know a few other members in the forum have experienced this, too. ;)

[Karpo_007]

I hope they dont start calling Mirage Fangirl... :lol:

[Mouse]

Uhhhh.......................Ol' Storm Owl is a guy.
.... LOL!! :lol:

Heh... I know how that feels. And I know a few other members in the forum have experienced this, too. ;)

oops!!!! :oops:

[azure turtle]

LOL!! Don't worry 'bout it, Mouse! It's all good!
*gives Mouse an "all good" mango*
See? Told you... No biggie. :D

[Mouse]

just goes to show how much out of a loop i am... :lol:

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Just don't let Ol' Storm know...... He can get upset REAAAAAAAAL easily.

Especially when Web & I call his gf Iris! He HATES it!

I'll let him know it was an oops when he returns

[Mouse]

dually noted :)

[Spike The Xenomorph]

Koo!