New preview on official site!

[Eye of Sarnath]

Yep, just like the title reads, there's an overview of the new cartoon on the official TMNT website. It has new info on locations, good guys, bad guys, etc. GO LOOK AT IT NOW!

[Karpo_007]

I was just coming here to post it! Damn 1 minute late...

Edit:

The TMNT will be 15 years old in the new cartoon, and the only mutant turtles you'll be seeing are the four originals, so fear not all of you who hated Venus de Milo - she's definitely history

[MzTheInsomniac]

where are you looking ?

[Karpo_007]

www.ninjaturtles.com

This makes me wait the show even more. So Hun is the leader of Shredder elite and Saki will indeed be a "Legitimate business man".

And another good quote:

The Shredder Yes, Saki returns as the Turtles' arch nemesis... but this time he isn't accompanied by Krang or the blundering Bebop and Rocksteady. Shredder is evil through and through in the new series, and he isn't so foolish that he partners himself with inept aliens and mutants.

[Anarchistguy]

OOOOOOOHHHHH YEEEEAAAAH!

:D :D It's exactly what I hoped it would be. No "ass-clown Shredder", no Krang, no moronic Bebop & Rockstedy and ESPECIALLY no CHANNEL 6 CREW(Irma, Vernon and Burne!!!) This show's going to RULE! :D :D

[Eye of Sarnath]

Now you can understand why we're excited. Really, the only new stuff is a few interseting tidbits. Best news: the Utroms will make an appearance!

[Machias Banshee]

Darn, you beat me to it! :P :D

Heh, I cant wait to see it...*squeals excitedly, doing The "Mikey's not a moron" Dance*


April and Donnie get close? This should be something fresh for everyone to look forward to...:) I like some sciences, but nowhere nears as much as them, i imagine...

Now we just gotta find out the voices, and hope they sound good... *crosses fingers* :D :D :D

[Karpo_007]

Yes. So There will probably be Fugitoid too. This is starting to get really good. Well actually there wasnt too much new info, exept The Hun part, but atleast now it's official.

[Raphael-sama]

MUST Laird bash the original cartoon everytime he brings the new one up? It gets mildy irritating.

-Badabing.

[Skeletoncrew]

Yay! April isn't a reporter!!! Her outfit makes more sense now. Computer geeks can dress as casually as they like. I am SO looking forward to this show!!!! :D

[Karpo_007]

He Co-created the TMNT. He has every right to express his dissapointment about the old show. He didnt like the way the show turned after the first seasons and I can fully understand that. This time he is one of the guys who calls the shots, and makes sure that This show wont turn up like the old show did.

In my comments, one could get the impression that i don't like the old show. The thing is, The First season was good. It had great fight scenes and good plot that continued fro episode to episode. After that, the series went down fall. By the 4:th season, only one ep out of 10 wasn't boring. I know what im talking about, I have watched over 150 episodes in last few months. Im going at the euro season now, It's the worst one yet. After that, will come the Redsky episodes, and I have heard that in them, the action is brought back and it's darker. I await that day I finnish the euro season...

[Newton Gimmick]

Every cartoon has weak spots. Especially one that runs from more then one season. I suspect this turtles cartoon won't last near as long as the original, and may not have to have the dry spells.

I watched all the cartoons when they ran. every week. So I too know about them, and I gotta admit some episodes suck, but they are not all over the place. Laird bashes Rocksteady and Bebop and Krang too much, when they are truly great aspects of that show. Not to mention marketable. Alot more marketable, then say "HUN" who is just some goofy looking thug.

And lets not forget Fugitoid, who I personally like, but has never drawn a dime to the TMNT franchise, and Laird keeps pushing him hoping he'll be a success someday.

But i'm not being negative, but everyone who bashes the old cartoon, doesn't realize that the old cartoon is the biggest body for TMNT fanbase. at least 80% of the fans of TMNT came from that show, and its figures.

Laird might should remember that, as Kevin Eastman did.

[Karpo_007]

Yeah it's true its the most popukar for of TMNT but not the best. And it is possible to make good show to last many seasons. Take the simpsons for example. The biggest mistake of the old show was the lack of action. That wont be a problem this time, and because the plot is pretty much taken from the Mirage comics, It wont become boring.

[Sparvid]

Evolving characters, subplots, no "Surf's up, dude", narrations by Splinter, vigilante Casey, eeeeeevil Shredder, maaaad Baxter, April's antique shop, Casey's house on the country, and Utroms!!!

Ceeeeelebrate good time, come on... :D

[Newton Gimmick]

Well at least we hope it won't become boring. Hard to say that, when no episodes have come along yet. Besides, lots of cool stuff dies everyday. Laird should make sure he targets his fanbase. Comparing the Simpsons to TMNT is just silly. The most important part to mention is, how much action will Standards and Practices allow? Not Alot. Which is what they face in the old show. I hope the new TMNT can pull it off, but Saturday Morning Cartoons, have little if no fighting, and not alot of dark storylines, It'll be interesting to see if the new show will break all boundaries for Saturday morning cartoons, or just be a watered down TMNT show.

[Newton Gimmick]

Oh by the way, I thought I should point out, that when I read the overview, I liked it very much and hope the show sticks to its guns on those aspects.

Interesting notes: It says April doesn't start out as a reporter. But if she isn't ever a reporter wouldn't they say, April isn't a reporter in the new toon. So perhaps, she will become one?

We'll learn about other people in the apartment building. Perhaps subplot human characters like, Vernon and Irma...OR, perhaps one of them will turn into a Villan. Could be fun, or could be needless comic relief.

I'm not Impressed with Hun, but maybe over time I will be. I'd rather have had a badass Tatsu, but thats just me. And where is the mention of this Dreek? Character we learned about not long ago. I thought he was gonna be Shredder's right hand man?

Interesting. I'm getting excited each day.

[Karpo_007]

We have to hope and see what comes. I have been worried too, that it will be too much kiddiefied. But all the intrviews have stated that thaye will use weapons against living targets, that was my worst fear. Of course there is no blood, but if they still fight real, It will be ok.

[Eye of Sarnath]

They're gonna have to actually be trying to screw this up for it to bad. And, that won't happen. It looks to me as if our beloved TMNT are in safe hands.

And really, what more can you ask for?

[Karpo_007]

Well it's hard to say, On paper it can sound good, but we need to see something to be sure.

[Raphael-sama]

*thwaps Karpo in the back of the head* Next time you say the "K" word you're losing your eyeballs.

I forgot to say that I like the concept and I'm looking forward to the new show. Looks to be interesting.

But really, can we pay the original show just a bit more respect? It's arguably the thing that made the TMNT something more then an underground smash. If I didn't know any better, I'd say that Laird is jealous that the cartoon was twicefold as popular then the Mirage comic ever was. *shrug*

-Badabing.

[Karpo_007]

Umm.. You are really out of it...

[Karpo_007]

I guess i need to make few things clear here. TMNT was created by Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman. The Mirage universe is the original one and best in all ways. Because The comic book became so popular they sold licence to use their characters in a cartoon. The first season was great but after that the shows quality went down year after year. There was nothing new in it, same plot was told million times. I wonder how many episodes you have even watched.

Because of the old cartoon, TMNT is generaly tought as a "kiddies thing". It wasn't that originally, and it isn't that nowdays with the new comic book. Should I give the show credit for using same plot over and over again? I think not. But I will give credit to the First season. That was really the best animated TMNT there ever has been. But it only lasted for 5 episodes.

Why should Peter Laird be jealous to the cartoon? It was a toy commercial like most of the 80's shows. It made kids buy toys and other things with letters TMNT on it. Because the cartoon became so popular, everyone thinks TMNT as a past childrengs thing. That can be bad for any future TMNT projects.

[Reznorite420]

OOOOOOOHHHHH YEEEEAAAAH!

:D :D It's exactly what I hoped it would be. No "ass-clown Shredder", no Krang, no moronic Bebop & Rockstedy and ESPECIALLY no CHANNEL 6 CREW(Irma, Vernon and Burne!!!) This show's going to RULE! :D :DCARTOON HATER!!!!

Just wait for the wrath of NTCF.... :D

[Reznorite420]

This time he is one of the guys who calls the shots, and makes sure that This show wont turn up like the old show did.For those who favor the comics, they might be on your side. People like me on the other hand, ones who heard about the TV show first before ever knowing of the original comic (i.e. NTCF), would love to bash you for saying that. But I won't, because I'm more logical than that. Besides, I don't want to left out the next time you state a MAME netgame :roll:After that, will come the Redsky episodes, and I have heard that in them, the action is brought back and it's darker. I await that day I finnish the euro season...Season 8 was awesome, but the last 2 seasons get rather boring and uninteresting once Dregg comes into the picture. It's just not the same.

[Anarchistguy]

Relax, Reznorite! I hate the cartoon because everyone thinks TMNT
are just for kids, thank you very much old cartoon. Besides, I only liked
the 1987 and 1994(red sky) seasons.

[Raphael-sama]

Well, the show must have done SOMETHING right, or most if not all of us wouldn't even be here. And it wasn't the first season, because most people never got to see that one. (I know I sure as hell didn't.)

So the new cartoon's taking from Mirage. Great! Huzzah! Be my guest. I'm gonna watch it, and I'm gonna enjoy it. But the original cartoon, "mundane" plots and all, will always remain as one of the best cartoons EVA. Boognish.

-Badabing.

[Eye of Sarnath]

This new cartoon could change that.

[Shellfox]

With out the old toon I probly wouldn't care about the guys, so I'll never really bash it, but will compare all shows to it.
With everything I've read, I'm still a bit worried but its my nature, how things sound on paper and how they appear on screen can be radically diffrent. And this is just their views, we need to get some fan to see a bit of the scripts to know if the shows have potentail, it not like the people in charge are going to tell us the show is crap.
Any way Pray for the best but expect the worst

[Jephael]

The way I see it, each TMNT universe is equally good and as long as the main idea always remains the same, I'll be all for it!

[Kali]

Sweet! Man, a good day at work and I get to come home and read about the new cartoon show. Life don't get any sweeter. Well, maybe if Raph suddenly appeared in my room tonight...

*ahem* Anyway. Now that I've got a good idea about the basis of the show, I am so looking forward to it. I'm seeing a mood and atmosphere akin to Gargoyles. Which, by the way, was targeted at the same age group as the new TMNT show, and had great action, and even blood.

How much do you think it would cost to get a cameo as one of April's tenents? :lol:

[Newton Gimmick]

Raphael-sama you make some great points in one of your first posts, and it is very obvious Peter Laird is a bit upset that the cartoon was bigger then any of his stuff. Not that I wouldn't be either, but Kevin Eastman, likes and appreciates the cartoon, so it shows you the difference.


Karpo...No offense, but you weren't in the US when the Turtles craze was around, and while it was big worldwide, the craze here is what made TNMT and its the whole reason its here now. Not a few failed comic books.

I love the Mirage universe, and it is cool. Not the best by any means, but it is the most adult oriented. Like I said before 80% if not higher, of the TNMT fanbase is off the old cartoons and figures!

Peter Laird, Mirage and even Karpo, may not like it, but its the facts. Deal with it.

In addition, the cartoon's characters, not because thye were kiddie, but because they were cool, is what made the show popular. Laird should have noted that and introduced Rocksteady and Bebop to the new show, and instead of making them so stupid, made them tough.

I like this new Mirage based cartoons concepts so far, but we have yet to see any episodes so you can't say its all cool, when it may not last. And like I said, for it to prove its dominance over the old cartoon, it would have to run for many many seasons, and while i hope it does, I doubt it will.

TNMT was the last cool thing Americans had. We had GI Joe, He-Man and Transformers, before the god awful days of the new stuff (Pokemon, Yu Gi Oh, and all that Japanamation play with trading cards and balls ****) came around. Most of the really good Cartoons of old came from toylines. And while TNMT was based off of a comic, and a good comic, the toyline is what created a awesome cartoon, that MILLIONS of kids, and adults liked.

Did aiming the storys at kids, kill them in the end. Maybe so. But there is endless adult humor and storylines wrapped in the old cartoon as well.

And everyone has their views. Both sides could argue til their blue in the face which is better, the Archie/Cartoon universe, or the Mirage/Image universe.

Both have solid points:
Mirage Universe created TNMT
Had darker storylines, more real battles and death.

Cartoon and Toys made most of the fanbase, and is bigger of a universe.
Had lots more marketable characters.


In my comics, I combine all the storylines and universes together to make a central universe that borrows from everything. Not to toot my own horn, but if TNMT did that, it'd be the only way to make everyone happy. But with Laird totally in control now, that won't happen. HOWEVER......

I expect good things from the new TNMT, and most people are excited, old cartoon fans and old comic fans alike. But the comic fans shouldn't bash the cartoon fans, or vice versa. TMNT would not be around if BOTH universes hadn't existed....And that is the only REAL fact.

[Jephael]

Newton, I couldn't have said it any better myself. :twink:
I love yer comic!

[Aztec General]

That preview was written the exact same way that I would've written it if I was Laird. Karpo's right Laird has every reason under the sun to dislike the original cartoon. If you have read the Mirage comics he's written you'd know why.

[Jephael]

I remember when Neil had that 7 minute clip of "I Love 1988" when they interviewed Eastman, Laird and even Rob Paulson and Cam Clarke.
Peter himself had complained about how the fighting sequences became more slapstick, and Rob complained that the animation itself became rather flat.

[Newton Gimmick]

Ah its a never ending battle, but if you like TNMT, you should like all universes or just one, but don't go posing how the Comic was better, blah blah, cause its all in ones personal taste.

[Sparvid]

Why is the cartoon and the Mirage comics the only things that gets discussed?
I came into TMNT through the Archie comics. The show was way too much "kiddified" for my taste. And comics can you have in your room and read whenever you want, the show maybe you were able to catch once a month... (The same thing with Transformers, I really don't get the people who consider the cartoon o be more interesting then the comics. No offence if anyone here does ;))

I haven't seen any episode with Slash, for example, but I'm pretty sure that he was a lot less interesting then his Archie counterpart.

And why shouldn't Laird have the right to be irritated at the old cartoon. Here he goes and co-creates some really cool characters, and mostly because of the cartoon, 99% of people you were to ask on the street thinks they always have been those "kid versions"...

Imagine if the old cartoon had been more like the Archies...

[Jephael]

That's how alot of people wish it was, including myself. I bet if they had taken more of the Archie storylines like say "The Future Shark Trilogy", the show would've looked alot better.

[Karpo_007]

Newton, I wonder have you ever read any Mirage comics. I can see you don't know much about it. First of all, It was Most suuccesfull blackwhite comic book of the 80's. He didnt like the cartoon because it became really boring. Like I said I watched over 150 episodes of it in past three months. Im sure you haven't.

Sure, it's the cartoon that brought TMNT to masses. And that's the bad thing. Everyone nowdays considers TMNT as children's thing. And again, Peter Laird should be Jealous fort the succes of old cartoon? You probably think he should be jealous to Pokemon too. TMNT wont ever be that popular.

And yes, I started with the cartoon too. I loved it when i was 7. Kids that at that age don't care if the plot is same in every episode, there are robots, and mutants, they just think it's cool. If you are older, you can easily see how boring the show becomes around 4:th season.

You revealed your lack of knowledge when you said few failed comic books. Also you probably think Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman originally did it to make money? They did it because they wanted to publish a comic book and they were suprised by it's success.

You can defend the cartoon all you want, I still dont believe you watched so many episodes in past few months as I have. If you watched the show as a kid, I can why are so eager to defend it, but if you watch it again, older, you can see that it's just like other 80's cartoon. Like it or not, they make the shows to sell Toys. In case you didn't know, it was Playmates who Fund the show.

Most of you who say cartoon is better than mirage have probably read less than 10 issues. You really dont know what you are talking about. Everyone can have their own opinnions, I respect that, but the comment that Peter Laird should be jealous? It makes me laugh.

[Karpo_007]

I remember when Neil had that 7 minute clip of "I Love 1988" when they interviewed Eastman, Laird and even Rob Paulson and Cam Clarke.
Peter himself had complained about how the fighting sequences became more slapstick, and Rob complained that the animation itself became rather flat.

Thats true. I have always said that fight scenes died after first season.

[Shellfox]

Look I've read a few
Mirage comics, not as many as most I grant but a few and while they were thought provoking, insightful and intence, Visually speaking they sucked to me. You can have the greatest stories in the world and if you have unappealing art work it can be killed.
Yes as of late I've pulled out a lot of my old videos and I don't see the TMNT as that bad, yes it was marked to kids, but they had the money, it was fun and dispite my own dislike of the last season, it had some really cool elements that I wish had continued. Yes seeing a more adult TMNT is fun but if you lose asspects of the comidy you loes the heart of the show.
Yes I wish the show had been more like the Archie comic, bring Ninjara in, some how get the Mutanals, get some really cool story arcs going, maybe redo Lotus and a few others, the show would have been cool. Honestly I hope they mix a bit of Jackie Chan Adventures fighting style to the show, a hybred action comidy at times, not all the time but for a change a pace.
Look to each their own but don't go bashing what in essence made the TMNT the force they are

[Karpo_007]

The show could have been much better than it was. Yeah I respect everyones opinnions, but it's clear that Mirage had much better story telling than the cartoon. Of course, it was too much for the kids and archie was good choice for them. There will be humour in the new show, There is humour in mirage comics, but It wont be slapstick or comments about pizza.

[Aztec General]

This is really a needless debate because the answer is blatantly obivious. It's like comparing Nirvana and Limp Bizkit. One band was a revolutionary punk band that inspired a decade of artists; and the other was a bunch of guys that were popular in high school, who enjoyed cursing and sounding tough.

To put it bluntly: the Mirage series was a serious, action packed, violent, character centered, teen to adult comic, with a tounge-in cheek sense of humor. The original cartoon was (with a few early exceptions) a slapstick, goofball, action-less comedy made for children aged 5-9. Now if you enjoy such antics then that's fine. But if you have read the Mirage series and then watched that show, you would see the complete injustice that was done to the TMNT. The only commonalities between that show and the comics was the fact that there were four mutant turtles, a mutant rat, a woman named April, and a villian named Shredder. It's no wonder why people still see the TMNT has a "child's" franchise, meanwhile in the comics Leonardo cut off Shredder's head.

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, altough i strted with the cartoon, picked mirage up this summe and still I can clearly say that the original Universe is better in all ways.

But kids probably don't like mirage so cartoon was better for them. I think that I wouldnt have been intrested in mirage when I was a kid. So cartoon made TMNT the way kids can enjoy. Altough archie did this much better.

The cartoon wasn't all bad, the first season was good. Even Peter Lairs has admited it. And I believe that the later seasons are good too.

[Kali]

As much as I did like the old cartoon show, rewatching the few episodes I managed to get from a friend I realized that I had outgrown it. So I turned to Mirage, which for all it's great storytelling, isn't the best art wise. I guess I've been spoiled by the cutting edge comics I've got in my collection.

As for the old cartoon, while I'm not gonna bash it, I understand why Laird does. I've got a few comic books ideas I'm working on, and if any of them were even a minimal success I'd be thrilled. And on the off chance that an animation company approached me and wanted to do a kiddie version of my teen-targeted comics, I'd be even more thrilled.

But then if that cartoon became popular like the TMNT cartoon did, I'd be a little upset. Because before I got into the TMNT online fandom I had no idea TMNT went beyond TV and movies. It was a few more months before I knew the story behind their original creation. Think of it this way, you come up with this great idea, and people start buying it, and pretty soon companies want to market your product, whatever it may be. Before long, people associate your product with the company, and not you. It's upsetting, especially to an artist. You put your heart into something, then someone else goes and chops it up and changes it. I do, however, think Laird's going a bit overboard.

[Karpo_007]

Thast true. But this time Peter Laird is one of those who calls the shots so he will probably get what he wants from the new show.

I have noticed too, that intrest in the old cartoon drops when you grow older. As for the art of Mirage, I can see why some people dosent like it. Its done with its own style, style that some people might think old fashioned or something but i must say I like it.

[heretic888]

This is really a needless debate because the answer is blatantly obivious. It's like comparing Nirvana and Limp Bizkit. One band was a revolutionary punk band that inspired a decade of artists; and the other was a bunch of guys that were popular in high school, who enjoyed cursing and sounding tough.

Sorry pal, but you are seriously underestimating Limp Bizkit and seriously overestimating Nirvana.

There is no such thing as a 'revolutionary punk band' after the early 70's. Nirvana was a grunge band, and their sound was largely derived from Pearl Jam. Nirvana were indeed a good band, but far from perfect. Their significance has been seriously overinflated due to the untimely death of Kurt.

Your analysis of Limp Bizkit is also seriously flawed. None of the members of Limp Bizkit were popular in high school, and very very few of their songs are agressive or 'tough-sounding'. Most of LB's music has more of a melancholy theme than anything else. In many ways, Limp Bizkit is far more creative and original than Nirvana (and most definitely more diverse). This may suprise you, but the band has a lot more songs than the few on the radio.

Cursing or not cursing is irrelevant in art.

Regardless, the point is (I believe) that some forms of art are of a higher level and more indepth and expressive..... namely the Mirage TMNT. However, both forms are appropriate at certain times. One is not inherently 'bad'. Although the Mirage tmnt are indeed better than the toons, both are more or less appropriate in different situations.

On a side note, however, I must complain about how Mike is portrayed on the new toon. I was hoping for more of a relaxed, good-natured artist type and we get a toned-down party dude. Oh well. At least they still acknowledge his physical prowess, so he will be much more of major player in battles this time.

[Karpo_007]

Yeah and they said that Raphael is the strongest fighter. And these are the official profiles.

[Aztec General]

Oh good lord someone actually believes Limp Bizkit is a better, or even comparably band to Nirvana? :lol:

There's no such thing as "Grunge". That term was just made up as a means of tying together the bands that came out of Seattle. Compare Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains, and Soundgarden and tell me if any one of them sounds remotely similiar to another? Nirvana was a punk rock band, plain and simple. They were revolutionary because when they hit the main stream they shook its very foundations. I don't know if you are old enough to remember how everyone reacted to them, but everyone even the hardest metal head was shocked by their sound. Just look at how many Nirvana wannabe bands have their been since then. Ex:The Vines = Nirvana. Soundgarden and Alice In Chains were basically metal bands; and Pearl Jam was an updated '70s rock band. (For the record I like all four).

But let me get back on topic. The Mirage series has great depth and is written in serial format (when Eastman and/or Laird write it that is); while the Toon was shallow and had little continuity (I'm sure I spelt that wrong). Each episode was basically one zany and silly adventure after another. It was pure camp and little more.

[Aztec General]

their sound was largely derived from Pearl Jam. by Heretic 888

How did I miss this quote? Actually Cobain thought that Pearl Jam "sucked". He felt they were a glam band whose record company told them to act "grunge" after Nirvana made it big. Some of the members of both bands had met a few times previously, but were hardly friends. Kurt actually first met some of the guys from Pearl Jam at a Metal Church concert.[/b]

[heretic888]

Oh good lord someone actually believes Limp Bizkit is a better, or even comparably band to Nirvana?

Actually, yes I do. Then again, I am open to much deeper experiences than most people (due to my meditative practice) and actually make music myself (the name of my band is heretic888). Musical creationism parallels the development of consciousness. The mark of a higher stage would be a creative pluralism in which a vast diversity of styles and perspectives merge into a unity. Nirvana lacked this (by the way, I actually really, really like Nirvana but doubt they are far from the greatest).

I will acknowledge that you have me beat at 'Nirvana trivia'. I did not know much about the history of the band I will admit, but am quite familiar with their music and art.

Now, I must tell you that you seem to know next to nothing but 'popular' knowledge about Limp Bizkit. I will simply say this: Limp bizkit is NOT what the media and most people make them out to be. Your comments on the 'tough-guy' impression of the band makes me think you have only listened to, at best, a handful of their songs.

Limp bizkit are a little different than Nirvana in that they have truly gotten much better since they started, whereas Nirvana more or less maintained the same 'level' throughout. Although it is popular opinion that LB's first album is their best, it was really just ripped off Korn and Deftones riffs and Fred Durst was the only saving factor of that album. In later albums, they have progressed tremendously and are far better since their early days.

Problem is most people think a band has to have 'oh my god, slit my throat i am so morbid' image to make great art. Limp Bizkit has a lotta different styles and images so a lotta people dont understand this. They have serious songs and fun songs. They have angry songs and happy songs and morbid songs. its a balance and a diversity. Nirvana is much more monopolar, you might say.

I suggest you really listen to Limp Bizkit's music before making crass judgments.

[HorseTechie]

*clears throat... as Off Topic Foot Soliders crowd around the thread*

Please carry on your Rock Group debate in PM or Gen Discussion, before I have to move it there myself. :wink:

[heretic888]

*heretic888 ninja kicks the shiznatch outta wussy foot-heads*

ummm..... ok whatever.