Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Vol. 4 #22

[R-iZZy]

The official site of our beloved, shell-back heroes has a preview available for the next TMNT issue, and get this........ this issue has absolutely no Turtles in them. I don't know how this issue will be.

http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/volume04/22/22.htm.

[Spitfire]

Haha yet no one believed me when I told them that. It said that in the back of the last issue. Pretty lame if you ask me but I dont care to much since I still have Tales! I wouldnt mind as much if Volume 4 came out more often

[Aztec General]

I'm quite a bit upset that April's not going to have a "normal" origin. :(

[raphaelprime]

i know it is weird that after all this time where just now finding out that april has maybe an even more weird past than the turtles. i think it should be pretty interesting tho, even tho the turtles arent in it...and yeh as spitfire said, there was a whole page about this in the last issue.

[VaughnMichael]

wow I can't wait I really love the cover art..oh wait the comic shops here in los angeles have only been getting the new tales of turtles now for some reason I'm missing the last 4 issues of turtles...totally lame
-Putrescent

[Mecha Cow]

I'm quite a bit upset that April's not going to have a "normal" origin.
Agreed. This whole 'twist' seems highly unneccesary, and I really hope Laird doesn't mess it up.

[Leo656]

Personally, I think the whole "April's secret origin" thing is really corny, really unnecessary, and I can't help but have serious doubts that Eastman and Laird had this planned for her allll the way back in the beginning. And if it's something dumb like "April's dad drew her picture and then she was given life with the Kirby Stone or something similar to it", I will be royally pissed off.

And yet I will never, ever stop buying the book b/c I'm such a TMNT mark, so why complain? I'll wait and see where it goes, I just hope it's nothing that requires too great a leap of faith. And, of course, no matter what happens, and even if it is canon, I respectfully choose to ignore these "revelations" regardless of what happens, simply b/c I think it's an unnecessary character complication. But eh.

[cowabunga14]

This one looks like it'll be rad and its intrestin' that there aren't any Turtles in it. I really hope Laird doesn't mess up April's origin with lowered expectations. Anyone know when this one is comin' out? Is it next week?

[Triceraton]

Yeah, it should be out this wednesday. I've been looking forward to finally knowing what the deal with April is for awhile now, but at the same time I wish she was just an ordinary person. She doesn't need some weird origin story.

[cowabunga14]

Well that's good to know that its comin' out on Wednesday. I'll probably buy it on Wednesday along with a Movie Maniacs Evil Ash. If I don't go on Wednesday then I'll probably go to the comic book store and Time Tunnel Collectibles on Thursday or Friday.

[zkarlette]

I wonder what her real origin might be ...how weird can it get...In some way I would have liked her to just be normal. It was weird enough with all those nanobots inside her

[BartAllen]

spoiler space, just read it.










shes just a construct of the kirby pencil.. thats why she cant have babies.

[cowabunga14]

That's different than I expected. That's how those monsters started in Dontello's Micro Series comic. They were drawn by Kirby. I dunno even know why Laird choose to do it that way. I just wish her origin was more complicated. I imagine the origin wasn't the same for New Toon and Old Toon April.

[DrSpengler]

(SPOILERS and such)



Her new origin threw me through a loop, that's for sure. It raises certain questions; what of the two other "Aprils" in the dimension Kirby got stuck in? Will April ever fade away? Does April have a soul? etc.

I'll give Laird points for giving her not only a unique origin, but one that actually works with continuity set in an issue over a decade-old. I also have to say that the cockroach bit, while kinda gross (April mating with other cockroaches...yuck), was a welcome change from that "It's a Wonderful Life" scenerio where no one can see or here you but you exist as "ghosts". So kudos for that. And the reasoning behind her taking the name "Nobody" makes much more sense.

Overall, a very solid issue. And Volume 4 hasn't had one of those in a while.

[tmntman]

It is an interesting idea, and fairly well done. I am curious now, since I have a hard time seeing where they intend to go with this, other than giving them a reason to revisit the world Kirby created in an attempt to find the other Aprils.

But I was rather put off by the whole roach angle. It just seemed pointless through most of the story. And then when their role did come into play at the very end, it seemed like the whole concept might have just been an easy way for the writer to explain how the crystal disappeared until Kirby. The line about April feeling like she needed to make sure her father didn't create another daughter seemed tacked on. After all, she knows he doesn't create another daughter.

Still, those matters aside, it was a good story. It was certainly the most emotional one I've seen in a TMNT book, including Splinter's death. But it is also rather sad, knowing that they won't be following up on the story in the near future. That is the one thing I dislike about the current TMNT comic, the pacing is quite slow and hindered further by the slow release schedule. This is especially true now that the four Turtles are seperated in their own adventure at the moment. It takes the better part of a year to get back around to each character. By then I've largly forgotten why I cared unless I've reread the issues recently.

[The Hedge]

I just bought the Issue but haven't read it yet, I went straight to the letters page to see if Laird had mentioned anything about the new movie.
Well according to him a teaser trailer will be shown at the San Diago comic con this year!
Cool!

[Aztec General]

Kudos for connecting it Kirby's story and explaining why the crystal was there in the first place.

Rasberries for the idea that April's not a real human. Sorry, doesn't do it for me. Volume 4 is getting way too Sci-Fi for my tastes. I really wish Laird would reel it in at some point.

[cowabunga14]

I'm gonna pick this one up tommorow. I dunno if I'm gonna go to the Comic Con and I would like to seein' as I haven't been to one. If I go I would I get to meet Bruce Campbell cuz I know he's gonna be there. I'd probably see the teaser trailer if I went. I live CA and I wish the Comic Con was in a closer city like San Francisco or Salinas. If I think of the other people that live in other states that have to like take longer to get there then I do I'm actually very forunate.

[Aztec General]

I just bought the Issue but haven't read it yet, I went straight to the letters page to see if Laird had mentioned anything about the new movie.
Well according to him a teaser trailer will be shown at the San Diago comic con this year!
Cool!

Yes, this most exciting. July 14-17.

[Jephael]

I just got the issue this past Wednesday and after reading it, wrote a really good letter to Peter Laird regarding this story! I'm hoping it'll show up in the next issue.

[Leo656]

(Deep Breaths)

Okay.

First of all, I just want to make sure everyone knows that my opinions are mine, and mine alone, and I don't intend any disrespect at all towards anyone whose opinion differs from mine.

Now, that said: Are you people on crack?

I'm sorry. I am. Really. I know you're not (or at least, you shouldn't be). But after this issue, this book officially *sucks*. I've been patient, understanding, even supportive of Laird's "slow burn" storytelling style that people seem to dislike at times. I've put up with Lawson's mediocre (to be kind) artwork. I have been a TMNT fan since 1988, have every DVD, almost all of the video games, a crapload of the toys... hell, I even own a copy of the "Coming Out of Their Shells" album that I PAID for. Furthermore, I own almost every single TMNT comic ever, Mirage, Archie and Image, with the exception of about maybe 8 of them. Point is, I've been a TMNT fan my whole life, and TMNT is something that is very, *very* important to me. It's in my blood, whether or not I bother to pop in and make comments about things at times. And those of you that know me well know I have a tendency to be very outspoken when it comes to things I'm passionate about.

And I have never... *never*... seen a TMNT storyline so asinine, so pointless, so mind-numbingly stupid and insulting to the intelligence of every single reader as this issue. The worst part? I CALLED IT. Check a few posts back. I mentioned the possibility simply b/c it was so asinine an idea, surely they would *never* do that, would they? But they DID. Not only that, but apparently it's been planned for quite some time. Dumb. Dumb, dumb, DUMB. Reading this issue, I felt like the Joker in Tim Burton's "Batman", flipping through Vicki Vale's portfolio: "Crap. Crap, Crap. Crap, Crap, Crap..." There was nothing at all redeeming about this issue for me, only frustration and aggravation.

And you know what the kicker was? It wasn't even in the issue itself; it was at the end of the lettercol, when Laird was bashing the new "Star Wars" flick, saying how it was full of "wasted potential", "blown opportunities", and saying he wished someone would be standing next to George Lucas so they could slap him occasionally and say "George, that is just stupid".

Excuse me, Mr. Peter Laird? A.K.A. "The Pot"? I have The Kettle holding for you on Line One? He just called to say you're black.

THIS BOOK is the epitome of "wasted potential" and "blown opportunities", far beyond whatever minor grievances anyone may have had with the Star Wars prequels. And now, this "revelation" about April's origin? What I wouldn't give to be Mr. Laird's personal assistant, just so *I* could slap *him* upside the head and say, "Pete, *that* is just stupid."

Ever since Vol. 4 started, Laird has never made it a secret that he's doing the book for his own gratification and not the fans, and more power to him. But come ON already. There's a REASON why Mirage loses money on this book, and it's because people DON'T BUY IT. And they don't buy it because it's NOT what TMNT fans want. Think about it. Put personal bias and love for TMNT aside, scroll back over some of our own posts over the past few years about this book and you'll realize that even some of the biggest supporters of it don't love it; they're just cautiously optimistic about it possibly getting better. And that's bad. And it's because there isn't anything to love about a book with horrible art and a story that isn't going anywhere. "Fallen Angel" was a great book and it got cancelled, and it had way more readers than TMNT.

Folks, if this is all Laird has to offer us, then we're in trouble.

Don't get me wrong, man, I'm not one of the "haters" (even though it sounds like it). I *love* the TMNT, and I desperately, passionately want something to come out of this new book that has even a fraction of the spark that made each and every one of us a TMNT fan to begin with. And aside from issue 1, Vol. 4 hasn't even come close. "Tales", yes. That book I do like. Why? Because it's the TMNT we remember, doing things we want to see, not unnecessary crap like April's "secret origin".

My solution? Put Dooney on pencils and have Lawson write the book (just keep him away from anything resembling a drawing tool). Peter Laird? Let him approve all scripts and count his money and be happy with it, because if this is where his "grand vision" for the TMNT is taking us, well, I'm sorry Pete, but I'll take Episode I, II, II, hell, the entire Star Wars prequel trilogy over issue 22 ANY day of the f***ing week.

Of course, since I am, above all, a TMNT loyalist, I'll still be buying the book each and every issue regardless, because I love the TMNT and want them to succeed. I do *not* want this book to be cancelled, I just want it to be *good*. I know it'll never be "great", since there's no chance of Jeph Loeb or Geoff Johns or... well, anyone with both a crisp writing style and an understanding of what fans want ever coming onto the book. But right now, it's not good. It's stupid. The only plotline that had any intrigue, the Leo/Karai/Foot subplot, got pushed so far into the background I wonder if it'll ever get resolved. Knowing it got pushed aside to make room for this dreck makes me even more angry.

But whatever. I know it won't matter, since Laird makes it a point to tell anyone who disagrees with him what an idiot they are. Yeah, you'll get my money every month, pal, but I ain't happy about it.

Once again, I apologize to anyone who disagrees. If you can find something worthwhile in this April story, you truly are a much better man than I. I'll just go back to reading Teen Titans, Superman/Batman, JLA... you know, books that make me *enjoy* reading comics, not pissed off at them.

[XERO]

At least you were honest, dude. :P

Excuse me, Mr. Peter Laird? A.K.A. "The Pot"? I have The Kettle holding for you on Line One? He just called to say you're black.

Classic. :lol:

[DrSpengler]

Lots Stuff.

Ya know, man, that was actually a really good analasys and nicely written. Honestly, cut n' paste that and e-mail it to the letters collumn. Let Laird read it. What's the worst that could happen? He might make fun of you in his letter collumn or something but hey, at least he'll know what you think.

Anyway, I happen to agree with a lot of what you said (particularly the hypocracy of his Star Wars comments, I noticed that too). So really, send that post to him. It might do some good.

[cowabunga14]

That was a very profound post Leo656. I got the comic on Friday and I thought it was average. I didn't like the fact that it was like a story. I wish the characters had speech bubbles. Spider-Man's origin didn't have narration on the sides of the pages like April's did. The narration on the sides of the pages really reduces the sizes of the pictures. I just wish Laird coulda had the comic where the characters had speech bubbles and the pictures took up a whole page. It woulda been better that way so the reader wouldn't have to read as many words. Besides Spider-Man:Chapter One this is one of the worst comics I've ever read. It woulda been better if the Turtles were in it. There was no reason for April's origin to be explained. It shoulda just been left alone and the origin shoulda been the same like it was for Old Toon and New Toon April. I hope next month's issue will be better. I'm lookin' forward to it.

[Raphael29]

There was no reason for April's origin to be explained. It shoulda just been left alone and the origin shoulda been the same like it was for Old Toon and New Toon April.

That's one of the main reasons why I don't like the new toon, because it is completely different from the old, when I first heard there was going to be a new toon I was excited and thought that is was about time for the TMNT TV show to continue, little did I know that it was in fact a brand new show, completely different then the old toon, the only thing remotely similar to the old toon are the names of the characters, even shredders's character was completely changed, I mean TMNT should have been left as one big long show, not two seperate ones. I don't mind the fact that the animation is different, or that they are trying to explore new storylines, I think that's great and I commend them for it, I don't even mind them changing the characters personalities to a point, but making shredder an alien and making the turtles personalites completely different is crossing the line for me and I think making the new show seperate from the old show was a mistake.

[Leo656]

Y'know what? I have thought about writing an Email to Pete speaking for the large and growing group of fans who are dissatisfied with this book, and I still may, but I haven't yet simply because not only do I not expect a response with any more thought or insight than his standard "If you don't like it, don't read it" line, but furthermore, part of me actually thinks that if Laird was met with a very vocal, particularly venomous critic who can actually form an argument better than "OMG this book sux y arnt Bibbop n Rockstedy n it wtf???", that he'd say "You know what, the hell with it" and cancel the book outright.

Think it can't happen? Why not? He's already shown in the past two years that he's horrible at handling criticism, even small, valid criticism. Some people think the art is bad. Some people think it's outright garbage. Some people think the storyline is too slow-moving. Their opinions are just as valid as anyone who loves Lawson's art or Laird's pacing. Laird's response to those critics is always some insult-ridden garbage calling someone a "moron" or something equally witty, then telling them how he "owes the fans nothing" and can do whatever he wants. Nice attitude. I mean, who are we to criticize, anyway? We only made the guy rich, right? How DARE we not share his vision as creator for these characters we all used to love until we all became a bunch of idiots who nitpick over every little thing? (voice absolutely dripping with sarcasm)

Part of it is because, I think, Laird never had to defend himself from criticism from his *fans* before. It was always from some wacko soccer mom whose son whacked his kid sister with rubber nunchucks or some crap like that. Now his own fans are turning on him, and he can't take it. Well with all due respect, if you give us, the fans, a reason to be happy, we will BE happy. A large, outspoken group has sent him letters, emails, etc. since Vol. 4 started, telling him what we want to see, and his reply is always the same: "Good for you, duly noted, but it's my book and if you don't like it go take a leap." Not in those exact words, but think about it. Re-read his asinine rants that he loves to pack the lettercol pages with, and you'll see that he's only *thisclose* to outright telling the fans to go f*ck themselves if they don't *love* what he does to death.

And since we're all just thrilled to have the TMNT in some form, ANY form we can get, nobody says anything *too* negative to Laird directly, and the ones that do usually can't put together any kind of reasonable argument. Meanwhile, there are plenty of normal, intelligent TMNT fans who dislike (or even hate) this book, but are afraid to say so, in the lettercol or even on these boards, because as these nameless individuals have admitted on very rare occasions, they're afraid too much fan whining will make Pete take his TMNT toys and go home, effectively killing TMNT for good. And the way he acts, it doesn't seem too farfetched, and that I think pisses me off more than anything.

I respect Pete Laird. As a creator, an artist, and for co-creating the TMNT, I respect him very much. But as a person, he strikes me as a self-righteous, egotistical, thin-skinned hypocrite who can't handle any kind of criticism, be it personal or professional. "Waaah, some guy made fun of me for riding my Segway"... Dude, it's because of the simple fact that, no offense, *anyone* who rides a Segway looks like an idiot, it ain't personal, and we do NOT need a 27 page diatribe about people needing to be more tolerant, especially coming from a guy who calls someone an idiot if they say Jim Lawson can't draw. So, that said, do I respect Peter Laird? Absolutely, on a purely professional level. Do I like him? Aside from not knowing him personally, I must say he honestly seems like a real ass, and the fact that he doesn't seem to realize it is what cracks me up the most.

So while I might yet (and probably will) Email the lettercol, I'm not expecting a huge impact, or even anything other than being called a moron. But I would honestly hate being the guy who dissed Laird too hard to his "face" and had him pull the plug b/c of it. So if I do, I'll definitely re-word some things... *maybe* not accuse him of smoking crack, etc etc.

For me, a simple solution would be this: If Peter Laird is insistent on having *his* unadulterated vision of the TMNT out there for us to read, let him put it on the site as a webcomic, and leave the monthly book to people with a better grasp of what the fans want, and allow it to be called "canon", because I don't think it's unfair to say that the book is, in its current form, a ripoff. Four bucks for a black n white comic with mediocre artwork and a story that moves so slowly I think it's crawling backwards, with storylines that I don't think any fan was particularly *wanting* to see, but instead are content to "wait and see where it goes" and hope it gets better... No, it's not worth it. But I will keep buying it, no matter how much Laird tries to rationalize the "don't like it don't buy it" argument. Because while I don't love this book, I *do* love the TMNT. I love the TMNT *so* much that I will continue to pay money month after month buying a book that right now is at the very bottom of my reading pile (unlike "Tales" which is so very, very much better), because as a fan I feel a deep, innate need to do everything in my power to keep this franchise alive, even if it means buying a book that I almost find no redeeming value in. If it makes no sense to you all, fine, but to me it's the least I can do.

(Heavy sigh) I just want to have a TMNT comic that I can show to people - old fans who fell out of it, new fans getting into it, people who never heard of it - and be able to say "This is the ultimate, pure, most iconic version of the TMNT, and everyone should read it". And this book is NOT it, even with the co-creator writing it. And I'm sorry, but that's a serious problem.

Again, feel free to disagree, I mean maybe there's something I'm not "getting", some hidden depth or something to Vol. 4, but I can't for the life of me see it. I managed to get "For Tomorrow" in the Superman comic to make sense; I even managed to enjoy it. I can't enjoy this book. The "Super-Turtles" story seemed corny and tacked-on, Raph's "HULK SMASH!!!" hyper-mutation has everybody saying "well, hopefully it'll be over soon", and Splinter's big death scene had all the buildup and emotional impact of the episode of "Family Guy" when they open the door to greet Lois's Great Aunt, and the old bag just keels over dead. Now this "revelation" about April completely out of left field, which takes the cake as, IMO, THE worst Turtles idea ever. Worse than Venus. Worse than Donnie becoming a cyborg, or Splinter becoming a bat. It HAS to be worse, b/c this time, the *creator* of the Turtles is the one feeding us this sh*t.

And make no mistake, sh*t is sh*t, no matter how much ice cream you put on top of it.

Once again, I'm sorry if I've insulted anyone or their opinions. I know there are people who feel just as passionately as I do for the other side, and that's fine. I can deal with that, because I'm not paying *them* four bucks every few weeks for the abuse.

[XERO]

Well, what can I say, Leo656? You get what you pay for.

But I agree with everything you're stating out. This is not the pure TMNT we've grown to love. I don't even read the comics, but I know this for a fact. Call it a sixth sense.

I mean, how can you have an issue of the TMNT *without* the TMNT? That's like watching an episode of Martin where he's nowhere in sight, only to kill him off in the next one. :roll:

And April's 'secret' origin? Laird should've just kept it at being Baxter's lab assistant. Maybe throw in a college graduation if he wanted to get technical, and just leave it at that.

I don't know. Perhaps the pressures of success is finally getting to him... :ohwell:

[DrSpengler]

Nah, man, you shouldn't appologize for your opinion. Not when you form it into a rational, intelligent arguement like that, anyway.

If I were you I wouldn't worry about being "the guy that pushed Laird over the edge" or anything. Even if he does cancel Volume 4 I doubt many people would be amazingly upset.

Now Tales, I'd miss. Volume 4? Not so much.

Even then, we'd still have the cartoon (which I doubt even he has the power to pull the plug on). While I some-what enjoyed #22 (I didn't think it was as bad as it could've been) your complaints are all perfectly valid; so yeah, I pretty much agree that volume 4 has been either dead-average or mind-numbingly terrible. And like you, I'll keep paying $4 bucks for a mediocre book simply because I want to do my part to keep TMNT afloat. So I guess, in a way, we're as much to blame for the problems with volume 4 as Laird is. We may complain but we keep paying for it and that's encouragement enough for Laird to keep writing "his vision" no matter how much hatemail he might receive. But I guess in some masochistic way, ANY ninja turtles is better than NO ninja turtles.

I felt the same way about Extreme Ghostbusters and that show made me cringe on a weekly basis. :ohwell:

[cowabunga14]

Once again a very profound opinion from Leo656. If Laird is gonna make the current TMNT comics suck then I'll probably just by some Star Wars back issues and I'm talkin' about the Marvel ones. I just hope Peter doesn't cancel Vol 4. It had some comics that weren't that good but the better comics made up for the misfires. The story arcs really should have more action' em. They take a long to develop and it doesn't really focus on the action. The current Army of Darkness comic books are great. They have four issues per each story arc and they have a lot of action in 'em. The story develops quickly and it never really makes me bored of the comic. I wish TMNT could have like five issues per story arc so that way there'll be a lot of action in 'em and the story won't take a really long time to develop. Laird should go back to his roots and look at the comics he worked on with Eastman to get inspiration for Vol 4. I dunno if he's ever considered doin' that but it could save the comics from mediocrity.

[VaughnMichael]

what Leo656 said I am sure is what allot of us have been wanting to say but in fear of the same things as Leo656 is....I love Laird for being a CO-creator of the turtles and all but I must agree the way he treats other humans as if he is some rich snotty jerk...and yes that's being nice....I mean at first I even stood up for him and Lawson but they both are really arrogant towards constructive voices....and like you said it's differnt with us we ask or state real things aposed to hey yous guys wys aint bebop and the kranmaster aint in dis her comic yep yep durrr *drolls*...
Me I'm a big Fn' fan of change and that's great and all but for him to go and say those things about Lucas is just rude he's acting the same exact way...
Sure he might not believe this but neither does lucas....perhaps Laird is going crazy as well...
but anyway I am sorry to everyone who hated this issue it's actully my favorite issue so far in this new series I mean it's not anywhere as good as an issue of tales.....but perhaps thats what this storey should have been in and with a good artist....I mean I'm sorry I tried I really did to like lawsons new art work but I can't even look at it I find myself looking back at old issues of turtles and just looking at the art for ever even the image series it was so much better then this rubbish we are being fed and being told to swallow because we will still buy it anyway because we the fans love TMNT so much that we will do anything for them....sure that's true for the comics I guess...but me personally I've stopped buying the toys except a select few...
And the only reason I'm still buying the terrible DVD's is because the show is on when I have to leave for work on saterdays....and I don't get cartoon network here...
Anyway I for one liked Aprils origin and the fact that they were bugs it was just told very simply and drawn even more simply.....and that is not good...
Well, atleast we have the amazing stories in tales of TMNT and we can only pray they keep Lawson out of that book as much as possible...
I have been thinking of something for awhile now though and I hope I don't get totally bashed for this.......I think all of this going on these "changes" mostly bad ones and the lack of interesting characters and lack of dare I say violence is because Eastman is gone....tmnt have really changed since he's left the picture...seriously him being gone is like one of the TMNT leaving the show would not be the same...I'm starting to believe this more and more as the days go on I wish Eastman would do some TMNT stuff...
I do still love the show though just kinda wish there were more monsters and mutants robots (cool looking ones) and all that that made me a fan of both the old toon the comics (yes mirage) the toys and everything else like it or not I think this is a huge part as to why everything is lacking.
-PUTRESCENT :evilgrin:

[Aztec General]

Interesting post Leo, I can't deny that.

I loved Vol. 4 #1-11. I really felt that the story was going somewhere and was going to be enormous. I thought that #9 (which was by FAR the best issue) was going to mark a turning point which drove the series in an all new direction. Sadly, it appears that this was not so.

There are some things in this series that I do like a lot. I like Raph's new look and his post-transformation rage, I like the Eunuch warriors that Leo was doing battle with, and I'm glad to see Casey back behind the mask.

I have been very dissappointed with Don, Mikey, and Apri's storylines though. I'm also upset that the Eunuch warrior storyline has been shoved aside. It was the most interesting storyline Laird created in this Volume and he's all but ignored it recently. Finally, the pacing has not been good. This whole policy of 5 pages of story for each character is not working. I hope that #22's focus on one storyline will continue for the foreseeable future.

[TheShowstoppa]

I have just been catching up on Vol 4, so I really don't have much to say. I have noticed from the earlier issues, though, that they had better storyline. This current one is driving me all sorts of mad. I have not, however, picked up the newest issue as that I'm waiting for Tales #12 to hit the shelves. (It's nice to have my own folder at the comic store to pick these up whenever!) Tales is by far the better of the two books and I would love to see Vol 4 go in a direction that would best suit the now 30-something Turtles. Unfortunately, it's not doing so, and that saddens me. I will still keep buying each book, and in turn, keep hoping for a better tomorrow, but for now... I'll just keep dreaming of what could be!

[stonetemplepilot]

What you say Leo, I'm pretty damned sure is what's going through EVERYONE's heads when they think about the current direction Larid is taking Vol.4. Being a writer and indie film maker, I'm constantly questioning writing styles, and having grown up on comics, I'm REALLY picky when it comes to comic writing.
While I haven't been overjoyed with vol.4, I have been patient with it, and haven't lost patience yet. Hell, when you read 88mph's Ghostbusters you need to be patient! HOWEVER, my suspension of disbelief is wearing very thin in Vol.4 though. VERY thin. And I read Spiderman (stood by it even through the dark years of cloning)! Yeah it's cool that it links back to this and that and there's the nostalgia there, look there's that character at Splinter's funeral and hey this hey that, but the April origin, while I can handle it, is completely insane. Now Casey remains the only 'real' character in the whole thing.
Maybe it has something to do with all these bizarre new trends in comics. First it was Norman Osborn (who's revelation was EXTREMELY well handled), now we've got Jason Todd (Remains to be seen, could be the most redundant revelation of all time, could be the most devastating), Bendis wreaking havoc in Marvel with revelations all over the place and DC's House of M rival line and now April's little revelation.
I'm of two minds with the TMNT issue. I probably should mention that I LOVED Image's books. I thought the stories, while slightly insane and dark, could have gone in some very interesting directions, and one day I hope to be able to pitch these to Mirage for an issue of Tales (for those of us who want Vol. 3 to be in continuity). Anyway, to get back on track, I have gotten used to Lawson's art, even though I don't really like it compared to the other artists who are or have worked for TMNT, and as I said, my suspension of disbelief is wearing thin, but I DON'T want the book to be cancelled. I'm exactly like Leo in this regard. I have EVERY Mirage book, sans a first printing of the first comic. I have even organised them into continuity, based on what the story details are and roughly where they'd fit in, even (loosely!) Zulli's ones I've managed to work in and the bizarre cartoony ones (the artists escape me at the moment). There are too many GOOD comics in the previous volumes to simply disregard them because they're to one man's disliking.
As Leo said too, there are TOO many people here who have helped make TMNT what it is today for Laird to simply flip them off. If it weren't for us, the children of the 80's/70's, Turtles might've just been another passing phase.
Also for him to poke fun at George Lucas for domineering the Star Wars trilogy is hypocrisy at it's most ignorant. At least Lucas took some notes on what fans wanted, otherwise I'm pretty damn sure Jar Jar binks would've had a lot more lines than he did in the last two prequels. Episode III had more redeeming values than the recent TMNT issues.
The early days were awesome, four mutant turtles trying to battle evil while remaining hidden from the world being threatened. The whole idea of the human race being oblivious to what was going on, aside from a few was awesome, and only have it rise up a few times (City At War) was excellent. Now Laird has thrown it all out the window. The mystique and thrill is gone, now it relies on bizarre revelations like the one we were handed. Had the Utroms not gone public, I think Vol. 4 would've been a lot better.
Leo, I second everything you've said and agree with everyone who says you should get your 'article' published. Or combine arguments from a number of board members to create some kind of UBER-LETTER, so at least if Laird does give us the expected response, it won't be directed specifically at anyone, and if he does get indepth, then it will answer to everyone.

[stonetemplepilot]

Afterthoughts:
I'm really hoping that it turns out to be some kind of inter-dimensional mind****, and April is being had on by a new enemy posing as Renet, ultimately using her knew Nobody persona as a weapon for it's own devices. I know it won't happen, I don't think Laird's scope is going to expand much past the characters he's created. Hell, I'd settle for an Oroku Saki clone right now. At least we all know they existed. A TMNT Clone saga would go down a lot better than this. At least then we'd have the crew facing a MEANINGFUL threat, and without Splinter, perhaps even more meaningful.

Something else I noticed recently. Did the genderless warrior appear in the new toon? Australia is behind significantly, and they've been advertising the new series on cartoon network, along with Don talking about Atlantis. Anyway, knowing how Laird is tied to the toon, is the cartoon any indication of where the warrior storyline is likely to go?

[DrSpengler]

Hell, when you read 88mph's Ghostbusters you need to be patient!

I stopped being patient with the imbeciles at 88MPH when they delayed all 4 issues by at least 3-6 months each and then screwed up the shipping of #4 so that it got released at different dates all over the country. Then they only produce limited quantities of the TPB so people can only order it through their website. Oh, and the fact that they've obviously cancelled the ongoing yet don't have the balls to tell anyone.

Sorry, just needed to make a comment.

[stonetemplepilot]

True, I'm not saying i liked the wait. I ****ing hated it, made me furious especially when the writing is of such good quality and other 'lesser' titles like the ill-fated MOTU, Silent Hill, Castlevania, Friday the 13th, Army of Darkness hell even the Texas Chainsaw Massacre managed to keep dates. Hell Turtles! It's an indie publication, and they keep their **** on time pretty much all the time, at least it comes out in the month it says it will.
88mph is up the creek, I just wish Devils Due or IDW would come to it's rescue ala Transformers!

[DrSpengler]

Yeah, the comic was so good, but 88MPH couldn't get the book out on schedule to save their lives. Now I'm just waiting for their contract to expire so that hopefully a mroe responsible company get get their hands ont he property.

I guess that's one thing TMNT has going for it, years of experience with Mirage. Volume 4 may not be very good, but at least they can get it out when they say they will. And when it does get dealyed it isn't for 3 months.

[raphael_is_cool]

A few gripes

Okay, so April couldn't get pregnant because she's not real.

Baxter planted nanobots in April to try and kill her later on instead of there and then, not to stop her getting pregnant? Is that correct?

[Aztec General]

Apparently, he wanted to slowly kill her.

[oldmanwinters]

Hey, I don't have access to a comic book store that carries this title. So what exactly is the deal with cockroaches? I understand the crystal idea from the Donatello one-shot but I'm a bit confused with the "alternate Aprils" idea.

[ZariusTwo]

Cut back on the alcahol Leo :P

I take personal gratification in knowing that I have two MIRAGE publications to read, one to give me new adventures every so often, and one with an arc that is presently enthralling me with how long it will be, if it loses money, so what? The guys' got a f*cking animated series, a toyline, and a movie backing him up, hes' counting his cash, and telling stories in the original comic that time and constraint did'nt allow him to do when he and Kevin only had ONE issue to handle after the initital Tales folded, they clawed and crafted an empire on thier backs, and now that one of them gives you a secondary door whilst he decorates his original homested with twists, turns, and new paths, you STILL spit on him?

If I had a word to describe Laird bashers, I'd settle on around three, "Brats" "Spoiled", "Rotten"

You've got Tales, READ it, you've got the animated series, in ANY form, repeats, downloads, DVDs, etc, WATCH them, and let people with more paitence than you read Volume Four with absoulute sense of appreciation of what we presently have.

[stonetemplepilot]

I don't think you're looking at his post the way it's intended to be looked at. While everyone is no doubt gratefull that we have everything we have, and I'm sure Laird is as well, the point as far as I can gather, is that while the writing has been of quite a good level, a number of fans are disappointed with Laird pretty much telling us that he's pretty much throwing away/excluding excellent stories from continuity and basically making it "my way or the highway". No one's spitting on him! You want to see fans spitting on writers go to the Newsarama boards, go to the Ghostbusters boards and see the reaction to that comic!
And to clear something up, he's not writing the stories he wanted to tell back in the day, sure, there may be influences, but he said it himself in the early days of Vol. 4 that he's got a very rough idea as to what will happen (being the Utrom's revealing themselves) and from there it was a matter of 'seeing where things go'.
And just another small thing, what good are the animated series, the figures, the whatever else to someone who only reads the comics or someone who just wants the continuity of the comic universe?
People react to big things like this in different ways, and I've used the examples of Jason Todd and the Scarlett Witch to illustrate this. While the idea is intriguing, April not being real (imagine if this kind of stunt was pulled over at Marvel with someone like Mary Jane, imagine the number of people who'd drop it!) it pushes that suspension of disbelief further and further, which Laird has managed to balance out fairly well.
Also if you look at the back issues, Eastman and Laird had little to do with the Turtles after the death of the Shredder up until City at War. Tales was the work of Ryan Brown and Jim Lawson exclusively, Vol. 2 was mainly Lawson and Talbot, 3 had nothing to do with any of them, and some of the other side stories were Kevin Eastman. Eastman and Laird were co-owners of the rights and characters up until the demise of Next Mutation. All Laird did in terms of the comic up until 4 was give stories the thumbs up or down basically. He approved what was and wasnt fly.
And before you go labelling Laird bashers as spoiled rotten brats, take another look at WHAT and WHY the fans are bashing him. I've got to admit, even though I'm not all that against what's going on in the comics (sure I'd PREFER other directions, but we have what we have and i'm gonna see where it goes), some of his letter responses are pretty surprising, and the backlash against them isn't.

[stonetemplepilot]

Also, if it loses money, so what right? It gets canned, that's what.

[Raph's Girl]

First off I'd like to say that yes I think the storyline is rather slow. I wish the guys weren't seperated in the comic. But perhaps the storyline seems slow because it's a bi-monthly comic. IMO it should be a monthly like what Tales is now. :P

But anyways.... eww...April was a roach and she mated with other roaches!! Gross!! :o

Anyways.... well now we know the rest of the story.... the origin of Kirby's pencil. Always wondered where it came from...and now we know... an auction. :P

April being a drawing... a manifestation of the thoughts and ideals of what her parents thought a baby should look like is rather interesting. April is a thought. No more, no less....She has emotions, she can love, she just can't have any kids. Not unless they find another crystal anyways. Perhaps one day April will find her "sisters"....Perhaps they were some of the people Kirby and Don met? Perhaps all of those people in that world were what April is....creations of an artist with a magical crystal.

Wasn't there a movie about an artist who's creations came to life???

[ZariusTwo]

And to clear something up, he's not writing the stories he wanted to tell back in the day, sure, there may be influences, but he said it himself in the early days of Vol. 4 that he's got a very rough idea as to what will happen (being the Utrom's revealing themselves) and from there it was a matter of 'seeing where things go'.

In other words, a reallistic approach, treating the world of the TMNT in a very new way, it seems pretty coherant with the way he's telling it, individual stories all taking them in directions that seem epic in execution, and well paced to keep you reading, what I current get from the hostility is'nt concern, it's apparent boredom and impaitence with the way the story is advancing, and this little complaint about Lairds' "hyporcrisy" in not telling the stories he wanted to write, how do you know this was'nt something he wanted to write? What if he and Kevin kept it from the fans on the pure magnitude of how many shocks it contained, or that Laird wanted to write it, but Kevin disagreed with it?

And just another small thing, what good are the animated series, the figures, the whatever else to someone who only reads the comics or someone who just wants the continuity of the comic universe?

Read Tales of the TMNT.

Also if you look at the back issues, Eastman and Laird had little to do with the Turtles after the death of the Shredder up until City at War. Tales was the work of Ryan Brown and Jim Lawson exclusively, Vol. 2 was mainly Lawson and Talbot, 3 had nothing to do with any of them, and some of the other side stories were Kevin Eastman. Eastman and Laird were co-owners of the rights and characters up until the demise of Next Mutation. All Laird did in terms of the comic up until 4 was give stories the thumbs up or down basically. He approved what was and wasnt fly.

I know that, but the reason they left the comic behind was to expand the franchise, help get the cartoon rolling if not neccersarily associate themselves with it entirly, get the movie produced, they had work beyond it, hence the point of "crafting an empire on thier backs" still stands.



Also, if it loses money, so what right? It gets canned, that's what.

if it loses money, so what? The guys' got an animated series, a toyline, and a movie backing him up

Regardless of fan opinion, the fourth volume is'nt that essential at this present time. Relax.

[R-iZZy]

One thing I can surely agree on is Peter Laird has and extremely immature, rude and narrowminded approach to discussing differences with the very people that made him rich in his Turtle Tracks. I mean, okay, so you believe you've put out work and they made you rich for it, that's fair exchange? I can't stand how Laird puts off everyone for not agreeing with his approach to things, and if I could pull a Laird here: I'd call him "moronic" (or "idiotic", you take your pick).

April's character has now gone to total sh*t, now that we know she is a f*cking drawing. And I hear those that think we should accept it and be happy... but this angle was just poorly executed, not to mention the direction of April coming from the crystal that Kirby used in Donatello's one-shot issue was just terrible!

We were used to the idea of April being human, just as we were used to Oroku Saki being human (look at the immediate response from the new series when we discovered that Saki was an utrom). The idea was terrible, the "secret origin of April" was totally unnecessary, it was just a terrible attempt at a good twist.

Disappointed, yes... but what can you do? I don't want Laird's comics to run out of funds from his supporters, but a part of me wants it to happen, just so Laird can understand that he doesn't make a comic successful, but supporters do. His "my way or the highway" approach sucks, and he's handled this franchise terribly. I'm starting to understand how Eastman and Laird argued a lot, it was probably because Laird pitched bullsh*t ideas, like this, and Eastman, the level-headed one, had to fight them off for the sake of the fans that made them rich.

Whatever... all I can say is I'll just be waiting for the next issue. Perhaps, down the line, Laird can pull a Dallas off and have April see this as just one stupid dream.

[twopinacoladas]

Leo656, I have to agree with lots of what you said and I thought it was ironic that he said that about George Lucas and his Star Wars films (though I am not a fan of them and have seen some of them on TV before and seemed decent).

Anyway with that in mind Star Wars isn't what he had hoped it to be and I can somewhat say that about VOl 4, I got on late I started collecting about issue 11 or so and got all the back issues from Mirage. I did enjoy them and still am to some extent it is much slower then other comics and you hardly know when they are coming out as they are not on Diamonds list 80% of the time, not to mention they dont come out the month it says on the book...

With that aside I have liked Vol 4 maybe not as much as the first say 1-15 issues plus Return To NY and City at war along with the issues of the original Tales of the TMNT that I have managed to find.

This issue #22 I wasn't sure what to make of it, it seemed unnessecary its like in Amazing Spider-man going back and saying that Gwen was a slut and screwed Norman Osborn and created Super Kids that grow at a rapid speed... I was able to enjoy that arc to a point but it seemed wrong to do that to the character after shes been dead for how many years.

There are few characters in the TMNT universe that are actually real people to the turtles actual human beings. Casey and April were always the turtles human friends, I always thought of the TMNT in the real world it takes place in Manhattan New York City I dont mind time travel and parallel demsions or traveling through space to different planets its all pretty cool.

I see his vision for the TMNT and its not bad, Utroms coming to earth and allowing beings to vacation on distant planets is a neat idea but its not really what I would have liked to have seen but is still enjoyable.

Tales is good its more classic TMNT where they are not able to walk the streets or go into a bar for a few beer and just to be thought of as an alien visiting earth.

This book (Vol 4) could have been really awesome, I say its good but could have been much better. I will say that I think part of it and its pretty obvious that it is a bige part of it is that Kevin Eastman is not in the book at all, I used to think that they were equal partners and that it was 50/50 but I read Kevin Eastmans Artobiography and found out that he did basically all the page layouts and that they would pencil and ink 50/50 based on his stuff.

The layouts are mostly all identical to the finished pages, so it makes me wish that Mr. Eastman would be involved in a TMNT book which will probably never happen. Actually Mr. Laird did TMNT #2's layouts I believe; but it seems to me it was a collaberation on story and I see it a little bit more of Eastmans vision as for the look and layout. But the storys I am sure were 50/50 and thats whats lost in this new book some one to say; "no how about we dont go that far, how about we do this and take some of those ideas and rework them like this"

I read on the Heavy Metal website forums Keving posted about TMNT the new movie, and he was working with Imigi (sp) on some Heavy Metal projects and they asked him about doing a TMNT movie. Kevin sent them to Mirage and Peter who had been looking for someone to do the movie with; Kevin said he had not got a thank you from Peter yet and that he guessed when he gets his queque from being one of the creators from Pete that will be thanks enough. I guess he still gets royaltys but has no creative controll... I am not sure it works but he does get some money once the movie is out...

Anyway this post was longer then I anticipated I look forward to the TMNT comics and usually like reading them a bit more then the Spider-man comics and what not but I was kind of undecided about what to think of issue 22, it was done well I think for what it was but there was no need to mess with Aprils origin... how about she was adopted because her mother couldnt have another kid and she gets to meet her biological mother/father and they are friends with a Mutant female turtle named Venus living in the sewers of Boston or something lol thats enought for this post.

[ZariusTwo]

One thing I can surely agree on is Peter Laird has and extremely immature, rude and narrowminded approach to discussing differences with the very people that made him rich in his Turtle Tracks. I mean, okay, so you believe you've put out work and they made you rich for it, that's fair exchange? I can't stand how Laird puts off everyone for not agreeing with his approach to things, and if I could pull a Laird here: I'd call him "moronic" (or "idiotic", you take your pick)

I'd just call him a passionate writer, a lot of other writers just try and sugercoat complaints with "Ahhh, thanks for your relevent opinion", Laird has the balls to tell those people where to stick there's. Noone has the right to carry thier weight around and use his letters page as a soapbox as if they know better than anyone, a lot of their prattling s*it contains story ideas and suggestions that no sane TMNT Fan would approve of either, hes' loyal to his artists and stories.

April's character has now gone to total sh*t, now that we know she is a f*cking drawing. And I hear those that think we should accept it and be happy... but this angle was just poorly executed

Your opinion

We were used to the idea of April being human,

I've have no problem with April being a flipping drawing, or Casey being a Leprechaun, it's called EVOLUTION, character expansion, sometimes that means causing a great deal of change, some people can't handle that obviously.

Maybe Lairds' taking a leaf out of IMAGES' book, thier plotlines were far worse than what you presently have, yet noone denies they took risks with the status quoe, now because that quoes' been shattered, fans are abandoning it in favour of sentiment.

Sentiment is all that's blinding these haters, sentiment and disdain for Lairds' characteristics, he's not a kiss ass, he does'nt owe his detracting "fans" anything, I'm not saying you should owe him your time, or praise, but clearly there's enough fans who do like his work

just as we were used to Oroku Saki being human (look at the immediate response from the new series when we discovered that Saki was an utrom.

Yeah, it was DIVIDED OPINION, where the hell were you when people expressed they liked the idea? You;re catergorising us in the same f*cking book, and that's not going to cut it.

Disappointed, yes... but what can you do? I don't want Laird's comics to run out of funds from his supporters, but a part of me wants it to happen, just so Laird can understand that he doesn't make a comic successful, but supporters do. His "my way or the highway" approach sucks, and he's handled this franchise terribly

Your opinion.

As weak as the new series is in the ratings, that is the fault of audience diversity, not Laird

I'm starting to understand how Eastman and Laird argued a lot, it was probably because Laird pitched bullsh*t ideas, like this, and Eastman, the level-headed one, had to fight them off for the sake of the fans that made them rich.

...You're comparing Laird to Vince Russo then? :P

When fans act like they know what makes the franchise, that's when I just disregard them, I think they LIVE to complain and waste thier time and lives rather than enjoy what they presently have to distract them from things they dislike.

[R-iZZy]

I'd just call him a passionate writer, a lot of other writers just try and sugercoat complaints with "Ahhh, thanks for your relevent opinion", Laird has the balls to tell those people where to stick there's. Noone has the right to carry thier weight around and use his letters page as a soapbox as if they know better than anyone, a lot of their prattling s*it contains story ideas and suggestions that no sane TMNT Fan would approve of either, hes' loyal to his artists and stories.
First off, no one is telling Laird what to do... all they're expressing is that they believe that his idea is going in a wrong direction. Laird takes offense to not having his ass kissed and feels that his pride has been attacked when someone doesn't approve of an idea that he, alone, is executing. That is the trait of someone who can't react well to criticism. Okay, so he has the balls to tell them they're stupid. Does that disregard the fact that he's still a pompous, immature jerk who can't act civil when someone is on the opposite side of the line when it comes to views? If you want others to see things your way, you attack the ideas that the debater is presenting, not the debater.


Your opinion
Thank you.



I've have no problem with April being a flipping drawing, or Casey being a Leprechaun, it's called EVOLUTION, character expansion, sometimes that means causing a great deal of change, some people can't handle that obviously.

Maybe Lairds' taking a leaf out of IMAGES' book, thier plotlines were far worse than what you presently have, yet noone denies they took risks with the status quoe, now because that quoes' been shattered, fans are abandoning it in favour of sentiment.

Sentiment is all that's blinding these haters, sentiment and disdain for Lairds' characteristics, he's not a kiss ass, he does'nt owe his detracting "fans" anything, I'm not saying you should owe him your time, or praise, but clearly there's enough fans who do like his work
Okay, so "evolution" has occured. Is it not possible that maybe some people don't like the way the author has made this evolution take place? I mean, I understand what you're saying... but my statements were not to cause change or for Laird to take a different approach, it was just to express my opinion, and my opinion still remains... the idea was just terrible. It happens, and no matter what point you bring up... it doesn't change the fact that I still think the idea was just horrible.



Yeah, it was DIVIDED OPINION, where the hell were you when people expressed they liked the idea? You;re catergorising us in the same f*cking book, and that's not going to cut it.
I could see the people who liked the idea, but I saw an even greater mass hate it. I wasn't categorizing this whole board, when I said "we", I was referring to the portion of the board that didn't like the idea, and that was the majority of those who were following the story. Don't make assumptions, and don't let your emotions get the best of you in a point you're trying to make... it just makes you look stupid. That's a suggestion, not an insult.



Your opinion.

As weak as the new series is in the ratings, that is the fault of audience diversity, not Laird
As true as that may be, don't you think that those who don't watch the turtles anymore was a reaction to Laird's idea? The turtles were running STRONGLY in the beginning, and then they start to drop. That means an idea went wrong that didn't captivate the audience, and that must mean the ideas just didn't click with the audience. Who makes the ideas for the storyline?


...You're comparing Laird to Vince Russo then? :P
:lol: Heh, I guess I did.

When fans act like they know what makes the franchise, that's when I just disregard them, I think they LIVE to complain and waste thier time and lives rather than enjoy what they presently have to distract them from things they dislike.
That's a pretty ignorant statement to make. Of course it is fans that make a franchise lift off the ground. The creators don't dig money out of their pockets to throw money into their franchise. Then, that creator is making nothing. It's obviously the folks at home who take the time to watch the shows and movies, buy the DVDs and comics, and feed into the product are what make a franchise. That is basics, no matter what industry you're in, whether that be TV shows, movies, music, inventions, etc. I'm not complaining, I'm expressing what I feel, and I expect nothing in return, just an opinion I'd want others to acknowledge I have. Nothing more, nothing less.

[BigApple3AM]

I'm not sure if anyone brought this up, but doesn't it make it really weird that "shadow" is her daughter (even if not biologically) when April is "nobody"

I think they LIVE to complain and waste thier time and lives rather than enjoy what they presently have to distract them from things they dislike.

Oh kinda like some "fans" live to argue with other fans? :D

[ZariusTwo]

Oh kinda like some "fans" live to argue with other fans? :D

Watch the jaw line before I fracture it :P

But I apologise for using the term "fans", it was uncalled for, but hey, I don't take kindly to being accused of taking crack :lol:

[Buslady]

(Deep Breaths)



I'm sorry. I am. Really. I know you're not (or at least, you shouldn't be). But after this issue, this book officially *sucks*. I've been patient, understanding, even supportive of Laird's "slow burn" storytelling style that people seem to dislike at times. I've put up with Lawson's mediocre (to be kind) artwork. I have been a TMNT fan since 1988, have every DVD, almost all of the video games, a crapload of the toys... hell, I even own a copy of the "Coming Out of Their Shells" album that I PAID for. *Snipped*


Guess what? I agree.
I think I like TNM more than I like this current crap they're doing in the books.
I wish Peter Laird would listen to his readers, he can't just expect us to buy and take every corny idea he comes up with. In some part he shold give us what we want, the reason he doesnt give a rats ass (*looks up* sorry splinter-sensei) about what we think cause he's rich! He's got money, he can do whatever stupid thing he wants to.

The April thing is stupid, flat out stupid! Raph being this monster is cruel to him, yeah so he's just ink on paper, but he's my fave-I stick up for him. Leo and Don's stories are a bore. Mike's is the most amusing; it at least says they aren't exempt from sex.

I think this title is bound to fail. It's no wonder very few comic shops carry it around here.
At least we have Tales of the TMNT and they're NORMAL in it.

[ZariusTwo]

I wish Peter Laird would listen to his readers

Most of whom in his mailbag hav'nt got a problem with it, and are encouraging him to keep it up, once more the Laird bashing bandwagon fails at life in speaking for every member of the comics fandom.

Raph being this monster is cruel to him, yeah so he's just ink on paper, but he's my fave-I stick up for him

Laird can do anything he wants with these characters, stop treating them as if there real people, this is the part where I just laugh the comments off, at least when Leo thrashes the comic, he's more reallistic about it, if anyone says "Raphy my darlingz, Lairdz beingz cruelz"...christ, I'm half expecting them to start slashing thier wrists next...

Leo and Don's stories are a bore. Mike's is the most amusing; it at least says they aren't exempt from sex.

Oh, well, no surpise there, you take something with sex involved over something that's entrenced in the Foot mythology (Leo) or the Utroms' origins (Donnys') :roll:

At least we have Tales of the TMNT and they're NORMAL in it.

Good, READ IT, let people with more appreciation enjoy this story than b*ch endlessly about it, this is what the Laird bashers ignorantly look over, the fact Laird has given you enoiugh f*cking diversity to keep you interested in every media aspect, if you don't like one, read or watch the other. That simple. He was responsible for TALES, he co-plots certain issues, your complaints are boardering on absolute hypocrisy


Does that disregard the fact that he's still a pompous, immature jerk who can't act civil when someone is on the opposite side of the line when it comes to views?

...Depends. I loved his line about republicans and serial killers :lol: , naturally, I would'nt risk alienating customers by going to that level, but I'm not above telling someone to shut up if they criticise me without a constructive opinion, sometimes I see more cases of this than most.

It happens, and no matter what point you bring up... it doesn't change the fact that I still think the idea was just horrible.

That's fine, sometimes Laird bashers themselves get too emotional in deriding someone they dislike, (take Bus Ladys' post for example) or disapprove of, (and thank god Leo had to apologise in advance before accusing people like me of taking "crack")

I stand by the opinion that Laird bashers fear change, and so far, with the outcry for a dedicated reasherip of TALES, or "simpler times", this has yet to be proven wrong.

Don't make assumptions, and don't let your emotions get the best of you in a point you're trying to make... it just makes you look stupid. That's a suggestion, not an insult.

Sue me for getting tired of the same old, same old around here. This board has had a problem with Laird for years ever since he attacked members for disapproving of Lawsons' work, no matter what he does, people here are going to complain. Regardless. To this comic forums, he's satan, and can't do any right, not an insult, just an observation.

[Kali]

I don’t think we’ve ever had to close one of these discussion threads for fighting, but this is getting really close. Everyone has different opinions about where these comics are going and what we like and dislike about them. Fine. But now this argument is bashing posters’ opinions as well as the book itself. Quit it.

I agree with the “if you don’t like it, don’t read it” philosophy, but I think everyone’s taking this much too personally.

[zkarlette]

I finally aquired this issue last week after looking for it forever...and let me tell you I respect Mr. laird and I hope vol 4 will last but......reading about April's adventures as a roach :dead: was way to much I think..... and that whole "I used to be a drawing so now Im nobody" was totally unnecessary to the hole story... I wish he can come up with better ideas ...Its hard enough to find them and a dissapointment to read lately

[Raph's Girl]

If ya think about it April's origins are somewhat similar to Wonder Woman's (Diane)

April was a drawing created out of love and braught to life thru magical means because her parents wanted another child.

Diane was a statue created out of love and braught to life thru magical means because Queen Hypolita wanted a child in the first place.

Noone complains about Wonder Woman starting out life as a frelling statue but everybody complains because April was originally a drawing. :roll:

[BigApple3AM]

Mike's is the most amusing; it at least says they aren't exempt from sex.

This story is actually my least favorite. There's so much sex out there these days (TV, billboards, wherver the f-- you go there's sex) that TMNT is one place where I really don't need it. Especially when it takes place between a turtle and a dinosaur (or w/e she is). Nasty. Throwup nasty.



Noone complains about Wonder Woman starting out life as a frelling statue but everybody complains because April was originally a drawing. :roll:

Not to be mean or anything, but was that origin created over 20 years after the character had been created? Was it necessary to the story or actually interesting or was it something just to piss fans off and hopefully get more people to read the book because he's destroying characters?

I hated this story, but I've enjoyed past stories in this book so I'll keep going and see where he goes with this.

Though I'll admit that it all ties together pretty well, he didn't just throw in a random story out of no where, at least it works with continuity.

I'm not too keen on this book because it takes place with aliens and such. Sci Fi is cool sometimes, but what really got me into TMNT was, believe it or not, the realism. They would fight on the gritty streets of NY, living in the sewers because people would think they are outcasts. They fought Ninjas from Japan that migrated to the melting pot of America. The first 3 issues of the original TMNT comic are pure gold. The Utrom issues were out there but still enjoyable especially since it was temporary and then it returned back to gritty NY TMNT.

That's why the Movie is one of my favorite things about the Turtles.

[stonetemplepilot]

I'm in complete agreeance with you Ectocooler. It's the same reason people like Batman and Punisher. Inspite of a few characters, the surreality is grounded so well by the reality of the universe it's set in.

I think the wonder woman argument is vastly different though. Wonder Woman is Wonder Woman. April was, up until now, a very REAL character. In fact, the only real character I suppose. Now the human link is Casey, who's a vigilante himself. Before we had April, who was special in that she was the grounding link between four mutant turtles, hidden alien infiltrators, a secret ninja guild and the real world. Now she's something else.

[BartAllen]

If ya think about it April's origins are somewhat similar to Wonder Woman's (Diane)

April was a drawing created out of love and braught to life thru magical means because her parents wanted another child.

Diane was a statue created out of love and braught to life thru magical means because Queen Hypolita wanted a child in the first place.

Noone complains about Wonder Woman starting out life as a frelling statue but everybody complains because April was originally a drawing. :roll:actually wonderwomans origin is very much apart of who she is. her mother was more a less a cavewoman. who was brutally raped, from that she had a baby, who died. then the mother was later killed . so the goddess athena. taking pity on women all over the world who were being brutally abused and killed by men.. took all the dead spirits and made them flesh again and put them on an island in the bremueda triangle, and athena made that cavewoman the queen of those people. because she was the first to die by a mans hands. but this queen.. longed for her dead daughter so the gods told her to get this clay and sculpt it into a baby. and the gods made the sculpter into a baby dianna. the only woman ever born on themyscra (sp?).. the biggest difference between this and the stuff with april.. it was all a part of wonderwomans origin. whereas this stuff with april just seemed to be made up out of the blue.


and dont get me wrong. i like aprils origin its interesting. i just dont think you can compare a warrior princess that has a comic history of 60 years. to april.

[Buslady]

Noone complains about Wonder Woman starting out life as a frelling statue but everybody complains because April was originally a drawing. :roll:

yah but..im not expert, but isnt Diana's origins known early on?
With Ape, YEARS later...suddenly she's a living ink drawing. Come on, too corny.


Yeha I love how I post my opinion of the current TMNT .... feh, oh well. it's not worth my time to get mad over something this stupid.

I wish they would return to the core of the TMNT, living on the streets surviving and trying to stay out of trouble. They seemed to be looking for trouble nowadays. Leo going off to investigate those weirdo fighters. Don investigating the habitrail thing. Mike is in the worst of trouble. Raph has absolutely nothing to do but get drunk and get screwed up.
Ugh.

I know Peter would say 'this is how it's gonna be'..yeah true, i can voice my opinion though.

[ZariusTwo]

Leo going off to investigate those weirdo fighters..

How is that bad? It's entrenched in the mythology of The Foot, and is the cloesest to fan expectations of the original comics

You're saying the exact same thing over and over again, it's not as if anybody cares anymore. Read TALES and be done with this volume if you despise it, otherwise, it's more than obvious Laird bashers are going to keep this up purly to grab attention and hijack threads.

[twopinacoladas]

I have been liking the storys for Leo, Mike and Don... Raphs was a little weird but its all good as long as he gets to turn back to a regular mutant turtle. I would like to see a nice fight with Raph and his new weapon or modified sais...

Aprils is the only thing that bothers me, I can live with it and would prefer her to be just a regular human character but Laird does have 100% creative control so I will just buy them and if I dont quite like it I will try to leave that out of my tmnt continuity... although its kind of hard its like oh she has not a real person in the story but I guess it would have to be fate for all this to happen I mean a woman drawn to life that meets 4 giant turtles.....

[Jester]

I think all the April griping is kinda reminisant of when the Toon Shredder was revealed to be a Utrom....We all hated it....then we warmed up to the idea....I think over time, we'll come to tolerate the idea that April is a figment of her parent's imagination and kirby's crystal....

[Raphael29]

Hey Leo656

Just read it and I agree that it is terrible. Went to the comic store for the first time in 5 years! the other day (I need to get out more). Picked it up the other day to see what everyone is talking about,won't be buying anymore of volume 4, might start buying tales seeing as how I picked one of those up the other day too and it was pretty good, but vol. 4 #22 was the worst comic I've ever read. If this is the direction Laird is taking volume 4 he should stop now, before it gets any worse. Look I'm a diehard TMNT fan don't get me wrong, but I won't give Laird my hardearned cash for garbage.

[ZariusTwo]

Jester's right, people were actually praising this idea up until Leo, a respected forum "veteren" came in and derided it, all of a sudden, HIS word is f*cking law, and everybody jumps on the boring Laird bashing bandwagon, making sure the negatives were heard more than the positives...hmm...COINCIDENCE?

Get your own mind for once. Yeesh.

Read TALES and be done with this volume if you despise it.

[Raphael29]

Jester's right, people were actually praising this idea up until Leo, a respected forum "veteren" came in and derided it, all of a sudden, HIS word is f*cking law, and everybody jumps on the boring Laird bashing bandwagon, making sure the negatives were heard more than the positives...hmm...COINCIDENCE?

Get your own mind for once. Yeesh.

That's not why I bashed it at all, I didn't want to believe what I was reading, and I finally decided to buy vol 4 #22 to convince myself that it surely couldn't be as bad as all the stuff I was reading on the boards, and went into it with an open mind but guess what Leo was right, its bad, real bad, and that's why I don't like it not because Leo doesn't, but becaue it's just a horrible comic.

[R-iZZy]

...Depends. I loved his line about republicans and serial killers :lol:, naturally, I would'nt risk alienating customers by going to that level, but I'm not above telling someone to shut up if they criticise me without a constructive opinion, sometimes I see more cases of this than most.
True, I can agree that anyone who takes the time to badmouth the story without actually explaining their reasons do deserve a bashing. But I've seen some who just write him not to bash, but to just say they don't like the direction, and they still get called "moronic". I don't see why people should be forced to say they don't like it. If I have a kid who doesn't like a specific dish I prepare for him, I'm not going to bash him for not liking what I've created for him, I'll acknowledge the fact that he doesn't like it and respect his opinion. Respecting others' opinions is something Laird seems to lack.

That's fine, sometimes Laird bashers themselves get too emotional in deriding someone they dislike, (take Bus Ladys' post for example) or disapprove of, (and thank god Leo had to apologise in advance before accusing people like me of taking "crack")

I stand by the opinion that Laird bashers fear change, and so far, with the outcry for a dedicated reasherip of TALES, or "simpler times", this has yet to be proven wrong.
Wait, so I'm a "Laird basher" because I've made observations, put two-and-two together, and stated what I could figure of the guy from the many traits he seems to showcase in his Turtle Tracks? I don't think that makes me a Laird basher; perhaps it's you who's just riding his coat tails. I don't "fear change", as you put it, I just don't like one story... and that was April's origin. I happen to like Leo's, Mike's, and Don's a lot (I'm not too fond of Raph being this Gamera clone, but I'm going with it because it's just starting out). I've given April's story a chance, awaited long, and just didn't like the results. That's not a "fear of change", that's just a disliking for a story. But I guess because the one who co-created our beloved turtles made it, I have to bow on my knees, throw away my individual opinion, and conform to his beliefs that the story is good? I may be a turtle maniac, but I'm an individual first.

Sue me for getting tired of the same old, same old around here. This board has had a problem with Laird for years ever since he attacked members for disapproving of Lawsons' work, no matter what he does, people here are going to complain. Regardless. To this comic forums, he's satan, and can't do any right, not an insult, just an observation.
Well, if that's the case, you really shouldn't be offended by it... that's Laird's problem, not yours. Why you feel this need to stick up for the guy for everything he does is beyond me, but he really couldn't care less what you, me, or any other person does... as long as he's executing his ideas, he's going to continue doing what he does. The guy isn't Satan, he isn't a dark figure; he's just immature and stubborn. Hell, I thank him for co-creating the greatest team to ever exist, and we've praised the guy through buying his merchandise and making him rich, but we also have dislikes that we can state and this is one of the few places that you actually have the liberty to do so.

I'm sorry that us not appreciating Laird as much as you think we should offends you, but others shouldn't be patronized for not sharing the same views as you. We just don't happen to like Laird's attitude, and I guarantee you that if I found that trait on someone else, I would give that person the same personal criticism that I'm giving Laird. I'm not influenced by anything, I just happen to observe, analyze, and conclude.

[Aska_Badoura]

Spoilers ahead after this paragraph, if you still don't know what's going on in the comics. ;)

I've never been very impressed with Peter Laird's lack of respect for others. I hate to climb up on my 'Venus' soapbox, but it's a good example. Peter's 'eradicate-any-and-all-things-that-have-any-mention-of-her', 'bring her back over my dead body' approach is billigerent. Okay, so someone took TMNT in a direction he didn't like. There's no need to overreact. It shows disrespect to the creativity (however questionable) of whoever introduced the idea in the first place. No, I don't want to see him forced to deal with a character he hates. It's this vehement rejection of (an)other creative mind's/' ideas that I object to, to the point that he'll actually try to undo what someone else did, rather than just leave it be as a terrible idea and move on. This has much less to do with how he conducts a storyline, or what characters he considers canon; it has much more to do with how he conducts himself toward others. And I don't want to incur your wrath, Zarius, as I am not attacking you, but making an observation: respect for others has never been your strong point, either. I think that's why you aren't seeing this conversation in the correct context.

Now, as for #22, I actually like the storyline very much on its own merit. I've always wanted an explanation as to where Kirby's gem came from (although I'd also like to know where Kirby got the idea to attach it to his pencil). Of course that answer only brings more questions (where did it really, really come from?), but it's interesting to delve into its past a bit. I also think it's really interesting that if it's used with ink (and the push of extreme emotion), it's permanent. That puts a spin on things, and makes me wonder if Kirby ever tried it with ink. I also wonder where he got the idea to draw up that portal, and why he apparently invested so much belief in it, to have it remain for so long. And then all the philosophical questions the story brings up are pretty interesting too: Is a concept of a human brought to life still human? Will April die, or will her body decay into dust like normal, leaving her essentially a ghost with no body? If she dies, will she appear in the crystal's dimension? As someone else said, does she have a soul? (Although that gets into uncomfortable territory for me; I'm a Christian, and I don't like fiction trying to meddle in areas that are sacred to me. Do what you like with living and dead characters in the physical world, but don't dictate to me what happens to them in the afterlife. Fortunately, they probably won't get into that, anyway). The concept of creating a child, investing one's love in it, only to have it vanish, is heartbreaking, touching, and thought-provoking. Sort of a 'be careful what you wish for' scenario. On the other hand, all this thinking brings up plot weaknesses, such as: because April actually aged, and didn't remain a baby forever, what's to say she can't have children like an ordinary woman? In all respects, she should be completely ordinary. If she wasn't, she would never have grown, and probably wouldn't even have any internal systems to be attacked by nanobots. Yes, you can come up with ways to explain the pregnancy issue, at least, (Um, she aged because her parents expected her to when she was drawn, but they didn't think through all the way to her adulthood and eventual child-bearing years herself. Or something. ;)) but it still bothers me.

Anyway, all that's fascinating, but I just wish it hadn't been April. I think it's a great story. I love the way it was told, in narrative with illustrations. I respect all the thought that was obviously put into the story. I could have lived without the 'life as a roach' ideas (they seem off-kilter with the rest of the story, really; it has the feeling of grabbing a secondary, unrelated storyline concept, and trying to blend it with this one), but it was thankfully only touched upon. But the fact that it's April: I just think it cuts loose one of the tethers that keeps the Turtles themselves in the 'normal' world, and it was one that they needed. Yes, life is certainly interesting with the public arrival of the Utroms, but having friends that are actually born and raised (both are important here ;)) as regular natives of earth is critical. They have very few ordinary, run-of-the-mill human friends anymore. They're mostly superheroes, former half-crazed-vigilantes, or, um... drawings. Shadow and Robyn (and I didn't see the comic where Robyn first appeared. I didn't think she knew the Turtles at all, and then I see her at Splinter's funeral..), and Casey (more or less), are the only 'ordinary' people left in the extended family.

On Jim Lawson: well... I definitely have mixed feelings. Granted, the extreme stylization he uses royally gets on my nerves. But it's not that he can't draw. Have you really looked at some of the animals he's drawn? I was struck by his drawings of a pond turtle in the first scene with the Turtles, from #11 (which I've just read, so it's on the brain at the moment); it's beautiful! Just the right thickness of limbs, the way the carapace tapers to a ridge like that, webbed toes, attention to its tiny beak and eyes, the wrinkles in the skin. But then there's the first panel of the second page, where Mike swims by it and touches it. This gorgeous, realistic turtle, right next to his usual bizarre, grotesquely-designed mutant Turtle with the impossibly thin wrists and a face drawn like a child's attempt at a TMNT (although very nicely inked by Eric Talbot, thank you). It's so completely incongruous! And in other issues, too, the way I think of it: he occasionally slips and does a well-proportioned, nicely-rendered drawing, when he forgets that he's supposed to be annoying you. ;) The fish, the lobsters, even the roaches. His renderings of the raptor-like creatures in the jungle, and Raph's frightening new (hopefully temporary) appearance, are both quite convincing. The scenes in the woods, and the brief glimpse of Leatherhead in #11, all attest to an artist with a lot of skill! He merely chooses to render his characters in a purposefully grotesque style. I don't know why he does it, it drives me crazy! But you shouldn't say he can't draw. It's more that he chooses to be non-traditional. I guess for the purpose of having a unique 'style', at the expense of what the general public would call pleasing art.

[ZariusTwo]

I don't "fear change", as you put it, I just don't like one story... and that was April's origin. I happen to like Leo's, Mike's, and Don's a lot (I'm not too fond of Raph being this Gamera clone, but I'm going with it because it's just starting out). I've given April's story a chance, awaited long, and just didn't like the results. That's not a "fear of change", that's just a disliking for a story.

I'm generalising, you don't fear change? That's fine, You're a minority in that regard, I'm talking about the other bashers who base thier negativity on that exact premise.

Well, if that's the case, you really shouldn't be offended by it... that's Laird's problem, not yours.

Actually, it very much is.

As a fan of his work on the comics at this present time, I can't come into these threads, on this forum specifically, without reading the posts conceived by the hijackers that just happen to quell everybody elses'. I usually stay out of the conversation. I don't bothee, whilst those with something different to say, something more constructive to say are just shut out, either afraid of bringing up a defense without insitgating larger wars, or because there above insulting Laird, and because they'd rather enjoy the comic in silence than praise it in public because a bunch of nerds don't like it when they blow thier hard earned money on something they dislike, and have been known to dislike for some time, without hesitation. Screw fandom, buying merchandise for the sake of franchise support like that despite dispising it so badly is just stupid.

Why you feel this need to stick up for the guy for everything he does is beyond me

I don't like Mikeys' storyline, proving I don't stick up for "everything", I just happen to agree with most of what he says, and writes, and am not anal about the decisions he makes.

as long as he's executing his ideas, he's going to continue doing what he does. The guy isn't Satan, he isn't a dark figure; he's just immature and stubborn.

Something thats' taken way too close to heart around here, so someone said he did'nt like what others thought of Lawson, or him, it does'nt affect thier opinion, it's still thiers to have, if hes' been known to have a track record of this, ignore it, read the comic (or read others), and only that, and leave Laird's comments to those who actually are'nt that anal about them

I understand where you're coming from, I understand Laird's nature, but the current Technodrome "crusade" against him is becoming the very animal: Immature, and stubborn

I'm sorry that us not appreciating Laird as much as you think we should offends you

It's not that, it's the fact they hijack every thread and say everything and nothing all at the same time, it's alwayts "this suxkz, wahhh", and drown out anyone who might say something differently, with constructive opinions. You may be objective, but trust me, around here, you are a rarity.


And I don't want to incur your wrath, Zarius, as I am not attacking you, but making an observation: respect for others has never been your strong point, either. I think that's why you aren't seeing this conversation in the correct context.

Heh, heh, don't worry Aska, no beef, I'm making observations myself in a way, that indeed, when the thread started, there were no problems, then people remembered this forum is supposed to hate Volume Four and started up again.

That's not why I bashed it at all, I didn't want to believe what I was reading, and I finally decided to buy vol 4 #22 to convince myself that it surely couldn't be as bad as all the stuff I was reading on the boards, and went into it with an open mind but guess what Leo was right.

Guess what? Leo's never approved much of Volume Four, and it's also your opinion. Noone is "wrong" when it comes down to that.

What I'm asking for most of these people to do is follow examples set by Nicompoop and Aska, you want to discuss, DISCUSS. Don't deride. Discuss the postives, the negatives, because they don't come without the other.

[Jester]

Ok...Time to chime in...I kinda like volume 4....I wanna know what's gonna happen to Mikey, the build up I didn't like, but now that he's captured, lets see where it goes. I wish they'd continue Leo's story...they kinda left it un-finished...maybe raphie and Leo's stories will mesh. Donnie's story may be a bit to long and o-going...fnish it up. It may run a ltiile slow, but such is life, there are lulls in between action...No onto this April story line...I haven't read it....cause I can't find TMNT comics (vol 4 or "tales") here....But from what i hear...It's a facinating origin, but I gotta agree, it akes one of the "real" elements outta the TMNT. April was the linch pinthat held the turtles to reality...she was their link to the human world...maybe since the world is more lenient to the TMNT they don't need April as a grounding normal character, and we can expand on her character....who knows. All I know is if you don't like how the story is going, stop buying it....stick the the action packed tales...and leave Vol 4 to Zarius....:P

[BigApple3AM]

I don't like Mikeys' storyline, proving I don't stick up for "everything", I just happen to agree with most of what he says, and writes, and am not anal about the decisions he makes.


But maybe Mikey got anal.... I mean...uh..... 8)

[Leo656]

Whew, guess it's a good thing I can only get on here once every few weeks, eh? :lol:

K, while I honestly have no problem with someone finding some merit in this April story, I do have a small problem with being lumped in with a bunch of people as a "Laird basher" and accused of "fearing change", etc. etc. I know a lot of what's been said by Zarius and others is general statements not meant to apply to every single person, but whenever anyone makes assumptions towards my overall character based on a few select issues, whether its intended or not (and I know that it isn't), well, I just gotta respond.

First of all, I can't help it if by being the first to speak out against the issue I helped other, more "closeted" dissenters find their voice and inner critic. Sometimes people are afraid to be the first to criticize because they fear rebuttal from others who disagree, other times they can't find the words to express what they feel, so they wait until someone else comes along and says it for them. It definitely doesn't make their opinions any less valid just because they weren't the first to say anything, nor does it make them "bandwagon-jumpers". After all, "people need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy", and I guess a 17-page diatribe by some foul-mouthed, beer-swilling Jersey wacko is about as dramatic as we can hope for, eh? :P

Furthermore, there *is* a reason why I am, quote, "a respected veteran member of the forums". It's because I'm intelligent, witty, articulate, well-groomed, pleasant-smelling, a snappy dresser, ruggedly handsome, and make a pretty damn good waffle. Not to mention, I'm incredibly modest. Personally, I'm often amazed by the impact some of the things I say do seem to have, considering that when I got here a few years back me and Alison Chains were like the most hated people on the forums for doing exactly the same things that made us so "respected" - namely, being loudmouthed and obnoxious, throwing our opinions at people whether they wanted them or not, verbally smacking people around for acting stupid, going out of our way to trick annoying people into getting themselves banned, and coming up with hysterical and increasingly huge sig pics. Funny how things work out. :lol:

That said, it's not exactly fair to lump me in with a group of "Laird-bashers". I take that to mean that a person criticizes Laird no matter what he does, without any rational reason or attempt to see the other side, and anyone that reads what I say knows that isn't me. Do I think Vol. 4 could be better? Heck yeah I do. Do I hate this April storyline in particular? Oh gods yes. Do I think his attitude towards the fans is friggin' horrible? Better believe it. But it ain't personal. It ain't like the guy's the Anti-Christ, or that nothing good has ever come outta him creatively speaking, but the fact remains that he creates his own critics by doing stuff the fans don't like and then calling them morons if they disagree. It's uncalled for. There's no reason he can't actually address people's complaints like a professional instead of acting like a "spoiled brat", as us "Laird bashers" have been called. There's no need for name-calling or talking down to people, especially when those people make you rich.

Another thing I resent is being lumped in with the "people who fear change", because again, that isn't what I'm about. The key is realizing that there's a difference in comics between "storytelling evolution", which is good, and "throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks", which is bad.

Stuff in the former category, aka "stuff I liked": Superman executing the Phantom Zone Villains during John Byrne's run, Hal Jordan going nuts and becoming Parallax, Kyle Rayner becoming Green Lantern, Azrael becoming Batman temporarily before Bruce Wayne returned to his place as the one and only Batman, Jason Todd's death and Tim Drake's assumption of the Robin mantle, Superman's death and rebirth resulting in the "Reign of the Supermen" and four new ongoing characters in the Superman mythos, Lex Luthor's descent from United States President and respected billionaire to armor-wearing super-villain, Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing, Terra betraying the Teen Titans to Deathstroke, Hal Jordan's return as Green Lantern (which I was at one point dead-set *against*), Guy Gardner's "Sinestro ring" phase, and the revelation of the JLA's "mind-wiping" of Dr. Light, Batman, and others. All of these storyline events progressed organically out of a series of events in other stories, had long-lasting repercussions on the characters involved, made sense in a historical context, and presented long-lasting or permanent change without insulting the reader or asking them to take a huge leap of logical faith. Even the two most controversial, Az-Bats and Jordan becoming Parallax, made perfect sense from a storyline standpoint and now, in a historical context, are "classic" stories for their respective characters.

Now, stuff from the latter category, aka "stuff comic fans collectively shat upon": Guy Gardner "Warrior", Daredevil's armor costume, Captain America's energy shield, the Spider-Clone, and the worst offense of all, "Electric Blue Superman/Superman Red-Superman Blue". These atrocities were supposed to "shake things up" and breathe new life into their respective characters, but instead they got the "Beavis response" from fans: "This sucks! Change it!" I mean you could just tell as you read them that the writers were just throwing crap out there in hopes of doing something big, and instead they caused almost irreperable damage. Some say Spidey *still* hasn't recovered completely from the Clone nightmare.

Now think long and hard, Turtle fans, and ask yourselves: In ten years, is this April story gonna be in Column A, or Column B? When we look back and talk about our all-time favorite TMNT stories, are we gonna say "I especially loved the story where April went back in time, got boinked by cockroaches and found out she's just a drawing her Dad did"? Are we ever going to say it's honestly of the same calibre as "City At War" or the first few issues of Vol. 1? Somehow, I just really, really doubt it. It's the exact same thing as when DC turned Guy Gardner into "Warrior": It makes little to no sense in a historical context without a huge leap of faith, it's never even been hinted at before and therefore seems entirely tacked-on, it took an established and well-liked character and drastically altered them for no substantial reason, and it leaves a large portion of said character's fanbase scratching their heads and saying "I don't see the point, I liked it better before they changed it". Change is good, necessary even. My above examples prove that, despite the oft-repeated criticism to the contrary, lasting change *is* possible in comics, and can be done very well in many cases... if done *well*. And this one isn't.

Even the changes in Vol. 3 seemed more organic and natural than this. I didn't like those either, but it did seem in many ways like an extension of things rather than a complete and pointless ret-con, like this one feels. Someone mentioned that they'd like the story better if it dealt with someone besides April, and upon really thinking about it I agree. The storyline is a bad one, but it would be slightly less bad if it wasn't raping (no cockroach pun intended) one of the longest-lasting and most beloved characters in the TMNT mythos. No, April isn't some untouchable sacred cow who can't be messed with occasionally, but there are better ways to expand her character than this. Hell, if I wanted crap like that, I'd go buy a stack of Marvel books. :lol: Kidding, kidding... you should all read "Supreme Power", it's really quite nifty.

So, if me and my arguments still qualify me as a blind, stick-carrying "Laird basher", does that equally qualify Zarius and his ilk as blindly devoted "Laird Worshipers"? Because I don't think that having an educated opinion (for either side), being able to state that opinion coherently, establishing criteria explaining said opinion, and doing so while being dead sexy at the same time is enough to lump any individual in with a group. Not everyone who disagrees with Laird is a "basher", they just think certain things he's doing are bad and they wish we as fans had more of a voice to express our feelings without being called childish names. That's all it is. And Zarius, nothing personal, but the way you're categorizing everyone as one or the other isn't very fair. The "love it or leave it" attitude towards Laird and Vol. 4 does nothing but enforce the view of people like myself who feel like Laird could give a rat's ass about his fans and what we want, and what we want isn't some drastic, unthinkable change, we just want TMNT stories that more accurately reflect the tone we're used to.

I mean, c'mon, if Laird wrote an in-canon storyline where Donnie "mutated" into a talking Matchbox car, Raphael and Casey openly declared their love for each other's mangina while dressed like Britney Spears backup dancers, Mikey became the host of a "Barney"-style kids' show and began hugging everyone in sight, Leo started carrying a set of huge guns a'la The Punisher and insisted on calling himself "Captain Kills-A-Lot", and Shredder came back to life as a serial-killing circus midget who rode a unicycle and spoke only in Mr. T quotes while assaulting the Turtles with nuclear-powered pancake batter, would you STILL like it? Would you still stick up for Laird even in the face of such blatant stupidity? Would you still defend the storyline no matter what anyone else thought?

If so, congratulations... YOU'RE ON CRACK!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

By the way, sorry 'bout that one, seeing as how you apparently took it so personal. No hard feelings, bro.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Personally, I have my problems with the story, but overall, I felt it was decent because of the fact that it was the closest thing Vol. 4 has had so far to an all-inclusive story in one issue. I mean, when I think of my favorite TMNT stories, I think of stuff like "Raphael #1," or the one with the Justice Force, or the one with the terrorists in Massachusetts, the brass cow, and then the bigger, but still planned out and eventually concluded stories, like Return to New York, City at War, and my personal favorite, the entire arc that takes them away from New York to Massachusetts.

Still, to be honest, it's kinda like I've been deceived all these years. Y'know, just to remember great moments between the TMNT and April, like when Leo uses the remainder of his strength to knock a bookshelf on some Foot ninja to save her during the Foot's attack on her apartment, or when he saves her from drowning in the ice pond, or when one of them tells her, "No one will ever hurt you as long as we're alive," I kinda just feel that, since she's been just an ink drawing (not just in this reality but in theirs as well), it's all kinda cheapened. Overall, I guess I wish Mr. Laird really hadn't done this to her.

Still, I have to go back to what I was saying originally-- I loved the all-inclusive stories, and that's what Vol. 4 is sorely lacking in. I realize this series is supposed to move more like life, and that life isn't so episodic... but then, life isn't really this slow, either.

Tales is still excellent, partly in nature to its being episodic. Actually, I remember in the letters column of #22, someone wrote in and mentioned Bone, which is completely wonderful throughout. He compared Bone's huge, 13-year-long storyline to TMNT Vol. 4, but mentioned that each story in Bone was a story in its own right-- it moved like an idyllic novel, in episodes (Peter seemed to ignore the comparison). The same applies to Don Quixote and Huckleberry Finn, and due to this much more controlled variety of storytelling, the points come across better and there are fewer loose ends (i.e. Super Turtles, Karai's book, the armored car with the dead disco guys, the Madhattan Maulitia's war on aliens, the Justice Force, Shadow's boyfriend, etc.). I mean, can you imagine how long it's gonna take to clean up that mess? It seems like unless Mr. Laird knows what he is going to do, down to the letter, it's going to be hard to have a story drag on for 20-odd issues and still be able to have a real narrative structure.

I'm a big Turtles fan and a big Peter Laird fan (his solo stories in Volume 1 were among the best ever) but I'm not a huge fan of the way the story is headed, raising more and more questions about everything. Therefore, I'm not a "Laird-basher" and don't want to be labeled as such.

Ever do something creative, something you really enjoy and that other people enjoy? It turns out to be something really wonderful, but no matter how hard you try, you can't duplicate it. You overthink it the second time, constantly trying to bring the success of the original back. You try to revisit your past, end up bringing too much back from the past, and make it difficult to retain a solid new identity. I think maybe that's happened with Peter... he's not having quite as much fun with it now as he did when he wrote whacked-out, just-plain-fun stories about the Justice Force and those crazy nuclear terrorists.

I'm eager to see where this story goes for the time being, especially since it's too late to pull out anyway, and I hope a few questions regarding April's living state(She's able to think, learn and grow, she has emotions and she can feel things like love, fear, hate, etc.-- doesn't this make her a human being?) will be answered.

Also, here's hoping she doesn't just poof out of existence.

[ZariusTwo]

Here's the odd thing though, the criticisms expressed by you have been a stabelmate of the forum opinion towards Laird for years now, if anything, the positive reviewers were the UNDERDOGS, just as much as you decided to be the first to enforce the "status quoe", I was the one to say "xcrew that, let's see what happens when a dedicated reader stands against the disgruntled readers for once. Taste of thier own medicine"

The "crack" comment actually DID'NT offend me as much as you think it did, I loved it actually. I just used as an example of what may later be reflected by others who...you know...don't intend it in good humour.

I would'nt say I'm "blind", but I've got very little reason not to be devoted, I like most of the current arc barring Mikeys, and have seen so many currently s*it comic events like "Identity Crisis", "Infinity Criss", and the recent rubbish "House of M", that Aprils' origin is a welcome source of relief, it's not as bad as any of them. Far from it, it's gloriously poignant.

On the subject of "basterdised origins", you did'nt include the fact Peter Parker getting bitten by a radioactive spider was'nt an "accident" under J.M.S' run...or other major changes such as Aunt May discovering Petes' identity, something that reinvigorated her in the comics and gave her something new. Is it true to the mythos that she should never know? Do we ignore that? Or do we accept this change as a positive, and see what new developments can come from it? For good or for worse, we need a challenging road to take, not the same dang one.

Bottom line I suppose is that, if you think Aprils' origin will fall under Coullum B of which comic moments suck and which don't, then it undoubtedly will remain that way. Noone can change that, what they CAN change however, is thier attempts to deride him, OR Lawson, every chance they can in comics forums threads.

[BigApple3AM]

Yeah but we were getting sick of the old "oh know aunt may's opening the door I'd better change out of my spidey costume before it's too late!" That was kind of getting annoying. Her finding out was pretty cool (to me at least), but that's different. When the whole freaking marvel u. found out and spidey joined new avengers that's where I quit.

Besides I don't think anyone was hoping for apirl to turn out to be an ink blot.

[ZariusTwo]

Marvel are'nt exactly boring me, but the sooner this Avengers s*it (all of Marvels' shake ups have just RUINED that group instead of reinvergorating it) ends, the more we can see of Spidy being what he always should be: A loner, him, M.J, and May, against the world.

[Raphael29]

Whew, guess it's a good thing I can only get on here once every few weeks, eh? :lol:

First of all, I can't help it if by being the first to speak out against the issue I helped other, more "closeted" dissenters find their voice and inner critic. Sometimes people are afraid to be the first to criticize because they fear rebuttal from others who disagree, other times they can't find the words to express what they feel, so they wait until someone else comes along and says it for them. It definitely doesn't make their opinions any less valid just because they weren't the first to say anything, nor does it make them "bandwagon-jumpers". After all, "people need dramatic examples to shake them out of apathy", and I guess a 17-page diatribe by some foul-mouthed, beer-swilling Jersey wacko is about as dramatic as we can hope for, eh? :P

Furthermore, there *is* a reason why I am, quote, "a respected veteran member of the forums". It's because I'm intelligent, witty, articulate, well-groomed, pleasant-smelling, a snappy dresser, ruggedly handsome, and make a pretty damn good waffle. Not to mention, I'm incredibly modest. Personally, I'm often amazed by the impact some of the things I say do seem to have, considering that when I got here a few years back me and Alison Chains were like the most hated people on the forums for doing exactly the same things that made us so "respected" - namely, being loudmouthed and obnoxious, throwing our opinions at people whether they wanted them or not, verbally smacking people around for acting stupid, going out of our way to trick annoying people into getting themselves banned, and coming up with hysterical and increasingly huge sig pics. Funny how things work out. :lol:

That said, it's not exactly fair to lump me in with a group of "Laird-bashers". I take that to mean that a person criticizes Laird no matter what he does, without any rational reason or attempt to see the other side, and anyone that reads what I say knows that isn't me. Do I think Vol. 4 could be better? Heck yeah I do. Do I hate this April storyline in particular? Oh gods yes. Do I think his attitude towards the fans is friggin' horrible? Better believe it. But it ain't personal. It ain't like the guy's the Anti-Christ, or that nothing good has ever come outta him creatively speaking, but the fact remains that he creates his own critics by doing stuff the fans don't like and then calling them morons if they disagree. It's uncalled for. There's no reason he can't actually address people's complaints like a professional instead of acting like a "spoiled brat", as us "Laird bashers" have been called. There's no need for name-calling or talking down to people, especially when those people make you rich.

Another thing I resent is being lumped in with the "people who fear change", because again, that isn't what I'm about. The key is realizing that there's a difference in comics between "storytelling evolution", which is good, and "throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks", which is bad.

Stuff in the former category, aka "stuff I liked": Superman executing the Phantom Zone Villains during John Byrne's run, Hal Jordan going nuts and becoming Parallax, Kyle Rayner becoming Green Lantern, Azrael becoming Batman temporarily before Bruce Wayne returned to his place as the one and only Batman, Jason Todd's death and Tim Drake's assumption of the Robin mantle, Superman's death and rebirth resulting in the "Reign of the Supermen" and four new ongoing characters in the Superman mythos, Lex Luthor's descent from United States President and respected billionaire to armor-wearing super-villain, Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing, Terra betraying the Teen Titans to Deathstroke, Hal Jordan's return as Green Lantern (which I was at one point dead-set *against*), Guy Gardner's "Sinestro ring" phase, and the revelation of the JLA's "mind-wiping" of Dr. Light, Batman, and others. All of these storyline events progressed organically out of a series of events in other stories, had long-lasting repercussions on the characters involved, made sense in a historical context, and presented long-lasting or permanent change without insulting the reader or asking them to take a huge leap of logical faith. Even the two most controversial, Az-Bats and Jordan becoming Parallax, made perfect sense from a storyline standpoint and now, in a historical context, are "classic" stories for their respective characters.

Now, stuff from the latter category, aka "stuff comic fans collectively shat upon": Guy Gardner "Warrior", Daredevil's armor costume, Captain America's energy shield, the Spider-Clone, and the worst offense of all, "Electric Blue Superman/Superman Red-Superman Blue". These atrocities were supposed to "shake things up" and breathe new life into their respective characters, but instead they got the "Beavis response" from fans: "This sucks! Change it!" I mean you could just tell as you read them that the writers were just throwing crap out there in hopes of doing something big, and instead they caused almost irreperable damage. Some say Spidey *still* hasn't recovered completely from the Clone nightmare.

Now think long and hard, Turtle fans, and ask yourselves: In ten years, is this April story gonna be in Column A, or Column B? When we look back and talk about our all-time favorite TMNT stories, are we gonna say "I especially loved the story where April went back in time, got boinked by cockroaches and found out she's just a drawing her Dad did"? Are we ever going to say it's honestly of the same calibre as "City At War" or the first few issues of Vol. 1? Somehow, I just really, really doubt it. It's the exact same thing as when DC turned Guy Gardner into "Warrior": It makes little to no sense in a historical context without a huge leap of faith, it's never even been hinted at before and therefore seems entirely tacked-on, it took an established and well-liked character and drastically altered them for no substantial reason, and it leaves a large portion of said character's fanbase scratching their heads and saying "I don't see the point, I liked it better before they changed it". Change is good, necessary even. My above examples prove that, despite the oft-repeated criticism to the contrary, lasting change *is* possible in comics, and can be done very well in many cases... if done *well*. And this one isn't.

Even the changes in Vol. 3 seemed more organic and natural than this. I didn't like those either, but it did seem in many ways like an extension of things rather than a complete and pointless ret-con, like this one feels. Someone mentioned that they'd like the story better if it dealt with someone besides April, and upon really thinking about it I agree. The storyline is a bad one, but it would be slightly less bad if it wasn't raping (no cockroach pun intended) one of the longest-lasting and most beloved characters in the TMNT mythos. No, April isn't some untouchable sacred cow who can't be messed with occasionally, but there are better ways to expand her character than this. Hell, if I wanted crap like that, I'd go buy a stack of Marvel books. :lol: Kidding, kidding... you should all read "Supreme Power", it's really quite nifty.

So, if me and my arguments still qualify me as a blind, stick-carrying "Laird basher", does that equally qualify Zarius and his ilk as blindly devoted "Laird Worshipers"? Because I don't think that having an educated opinion (for either side), being able to state that opinion coherently, establishing criteria explaining said opinion, and doing so while being dead sexy at the same time is enough to lump any individual in with a group. Not everyone who disagrees with Laird is a "basher", they just think certain things he's doing are bad and they wish we as fans had more of a voice to express our feelings without being called childish names. That's all it is. And Zarius, nothing personal, but the way you're categorizing everyone as one or the other isn't very fair. The "love it or leave it" attitude towards Laird and Vol. 4 does nothing but enforce the view of people like myself who feel like Laird could give a rat's ass about his fans and what we want, and what we want isn't some drastic, unthinkable change, we just want TMNT stories that more accurately reflect the tone we're used to.

I mean, c'mon, if Laird wrote an in-canon storyline where Donnie "mutated" into a talking Matchbox car, Raphael and Casey openly declared their love for each other's mangina while dressed like Britney Spears backup dancers, Mikey became the host of a "Barney"-style kids' show and began hugging everyone in sight, Leo started carrying a set of huge guns a'la The Punisher and insisted on calling himself "Captain Kills-A-Lot", and Shredder came back to life as a serial-killing circus midget who rode a unicycle and spoke only in Mr. T quotes while assaulting the Turtles with nuclear-powered pancake batter, would you STILL like it? Would you still stick up for Laird even in the face of such blatant stupidity? Would you still defend the storyline no matter what anyone else thought?

Completely agree, I don't hate Laird or anything I just don't like what he has done with TMNT and I don't believe in absolutes like Zarius likes to use, it isn't just a black and white issue there is gray in there too.

[Coola Yagami]

Ok... so April turned out to a drawing come to life...

2 questions-

How did she react to this? I'd probably have a nervous breakdown.

And was her sister Robyn a real human then?

and uhh.... April boinked by roaches???

[R-iZZy]

To the first question, I guess she was just stunned... at the end of issue 21, she was sitting in her car in shock and horror, crying, she was in disbelief.

To answer your second question, Robyn was, in fact, a human. Robyn's birth had disrupted her mother's reproductive organs, which had disabled Robyn's mother of ever bearing children. That was why Robyn's parents had created April out of the ink and the crystal, because there was no other way that Robyn's mother could bring another child in (since Robyn's father strongly disagreed to adopting a child).

And yes, April cheated on Casey, though technically, at the time she was screwing other roaches, she wasn't really married to Casey.

Anyway, that's how Volume 4 is going. And in my opinion, I would rather that Kevin Eastman were the sole runner of the TMNT franchise. I liked what he did with Image on the "Bodycount" mini-series. Eastman was more about action, and not weird and sloppy twists.

[Coola Yagami]

To the first question, I guess she was just stunned... at the end of issue 21, she was sitting in her car in shock and horror, crying, she was in disbelief.

To answer your second question, Robyn was, in fact, a human. Robyn's birth had disrupted her mother's reproductive organs, which had disabled Robyn's mother of ever bearing children. That was why Robyn's parents had created April out of the ink and the crystal, because there was no other way that Robyn's mother could bring another child in (since Robyn's father strongly disagreed to adopting a child).

And yes, April cheated on Casey, though technically, at the time she was screwing other roaches, she wasn't really married to Casey.

Anyway, that's how Volume 4 is going. And in my opinion, I would rather that Kevin Eastman were the sole runner of the TMNT franchise. I liked what he did with Image on the "Bodycount" mini-series. Eastman was more about action, and not weird and sloppy twists.


I see. I'm glad the story didn't forget about Robyn. Now, uh... April... Roaches... why??? Or was it that Renet and April went back in time disguised as roaches so that they can see what was going on without being noticed?

[oldmanwinters]

I wonder what the odds of this plot twist are to making it into the new show? In season 2, the writers did go out of their way to establish that April's uncle brought back tons of weird stuff from around the world and you have to wonder how that crystal ended up in her apartment. Hopefully, if they do they'll leave out the roach part.

[Coola Yagami]

I hope if this remains as canon that they remember this. It would be very interesting to see if when she dies (not that I want a classic character like April to die, but then again.. look at Splinter) she fades away or something, leaving the TMNT very confused.

[Leo656]

I honestly thought Identity Crisis was a greast story, tying old and new continuity together seamlessly and completely reinvigorating DC to the point where everything Marvel does seems reactionary, and Infinite Crisis is shaping up to be the most important DC storyarc in decades, so I honestly can't see how it's sh*t... unless you hate company crossovers, which I can understand, but the number of books I read per month has almost doubled, mostly b/c of the lead-in to Infinite Crisis, and only Rann-Thanagar War and Day of Vengeance seem weak to me, while OMAC Project is killer (especially the most recent issue). I'm more into comics than I've been in years, so I can't hate on Identity or Infinite Crisis; they're making DC fun again.

Seeing as how I'm not a Marvel fan usually, I actually didn't hear the details about the Spidey story you're talking about, but I did read some stuff about a Spider Cult or something and how there may have been other "Spider-Men" before... I didn't read the whole thing, but it seemed kinda like they're considering taking Peter out of the role again. I hope not; haven't they learned anything? (sigh)

[Mecha Cow]

Just got the issue today, and after reading it I have to say it was exactly what I expected: Lame, far-fetched and unneccesary.

Why couldn't April just be human? I realise this is a comic book about mutant turtles and that this is the direction in which the book is going, but does every story need a science-fiction twist? Does April really need to be something extraordinary in order to be interesting?

Whatever. At least the issue was well-written, and the cockroach thing was pretty clever. I can live with this 'twist', but outside of the Volume 4 comics this is something I'll choose to ignore, along with Krang and Venus.

[Coola Yagami]

I can live with this 'twist', but outside of the Volume 4 comics this is something I'll choose to ignore, along with Krang and Venus.


you don't like Krang?

[Mr. Stay Puft]

Changing the subject...

Marvel are'nt exactly boring me, but the sooner this Avengers s*it (all of Marvels' shake ups have just RUINED that group instead of reinvergorating it) ends, the more we can see of Spidy being what he always should be: A loner, him, M.J, and May, against the world.

Amen to that. Spidey needs to go back to being a solo hero and Marvel needs to stop trying to put Wolverine on every team they have. Is there any Marvel team Wolvie hasn't been on?

[OldSchooler]

The Fantastic Four ;)

True though, Spidey needs to be pulled back, but it looks like it'll happen once this whole "The Other" saga is out of the way.

Anyway. While not particularly thrilled with the decision Pete's taken with April, I'll see where it goes. We might get a turn around, we might not, it could be leading into something bigger, given all the little hints at bigger things Laird's been dropping in vol.4. Really well written, I'm just getting really tired of Lawson's artwork, especially after some of the artists we've had for Tales this time around. The only Lawson issues I've really dug since Vol. 2 have been the Tales where Leo was blinded, and the first couple of Vol. 4. There has been a noticable decline.

[Coola Yagami]

Anyway. While not particularly thrilled with the decision Pete's taken with April, I'll see where it goes.

LMAO first time I read this I was like.. what's April gotta do with Spiderman? LMAO

[Mr. Stay Puft]

The Fantastic Four ;)

Actually, Wolverine was a member of the FF when he, Spidey, Ghost Rider and Hulk took over for the original FF in vol. 1, No. 347.

[Mecha Cow]

you don't like Krang?
I like Krang and the old cartoon just fine, but I don't consider them part of the TMNT universe.

[ZariusTwo]

Whatever. At least the issue was well-written, and the cockroach thing was pretty clever. I can live with this 'twist', but outside of the Volume 4 comics this is something I'll choose to ignore, along with Krang and Venus.

But unlike Krang and Venus, Laird will remind you of this again and again, this is continuity, whenever you count it or not, and it'll have long-running consequences as long as Petes' writing it, so if you're going to boycott that origin, you might as well boycott the character completly.

[Mecha Cow]

Read my post again. I said I could live it with it within the Volume 4 continuity, but outside of those comics I'm going to pretend it never happened.

What I mean is that I'm not going to reread the old Volume 1 comics and think to myself 'Oh, April was just a sketch brought to life all along'.

I never said anything about boycotting it.

[Jaf]

When you think of it, April IS «just a sketch brought to life». It remainds me of the «big angry fans uprising» after the end of the Evangelion anime in Japan, where a lot of people expressed their frustration after Hideaki Anno made it clear, in the show, that he was just saying : Cool down, get back on your feet, this is not the end of the world, it's just a show and none of those people actually exists».

April was always the character by which the guys at Mirage expressed their own feelings and talked about themselves. It's not about a girl in NoHo suddenly realizing «Oh my gish! I'm just a drawning!» It's about some guys in NoHo and their ambiguous relation to art and creation.

I love those characters, we love those characters, but April, Casey, the turtles, etc. ARE nothing more than ink on paper, and it is the passion and faith in their work of some Western Massachussets folks that give them what we see as their «lives».

I'll live along very well with an April knowing she's a comic book character :P . That should give us some much needed reflection on the media.

By the way, did I ever mentionned that Lawson's my main man? Best TMNT artist. Period. And Guzzi rocks.

I'm quite amazed that people around here keeps comparing TMNT with mainstream superhero titles, and never with Usagi, Flamming Carrot, Gnatrat, the Post Bros, Love and Rockets, Puma Blues, or other early Mirage titles, or the titles the Xeric foundation is founding (hope everybody knows what is the Xeric). I mean, that's alternative comix we're babbling about, no let's-save-the-wolrd crime fighters.

[sorrenmj]

I always felt this should/would have made a better issue of the Tales volume 2 series