A thing about Leo

[Ryona]

As a Leo fan, I feel that I understand him very well. Who he is as a person. How he interacts.
There's something about how the different mediums such as the old series and new series portray Leo that seems off to me...
Like how he seems to be such a perfect sibling and perfect son. Leo seems to be such a nice and lovable guy... and to me, this just doesn't seem right.

I was discussing about this to Spitfire and Machias. seems we three agree.
Seeing as Leo is the eldest brother, he ought to have the characteristics such as the big brother attitude of "I'm better than you because I'm the oldest".
Also, seeing as the four of them grew up together, and Leo not only being the eldest, but also being able to kick their butts, that ought to give him a sense of bragging rights. It should also make Leo grow up to be a cocky bast*rd.

This doesn't mean that Leo will be a complete jerk-off to his brothers. He would be there to protect his brothers and be there for them in serious situations, but at the same time, at less serious times, be a cocky playful jerk who would put his brother in a head-lock and tell him to say uncle.

Though, Raph is already a jerk towards Mikey (since he's the youngest), so I guess this makes Leo more gentile with Mikey and harder on Raph, like slap him upside the head for tormenting Mikey. Then Leo starts to torment Raph as a sick sense of brotherly justice.

I can see Leo getting along with Don the best. You gotta respect a guy who can do the stuff that Don can. Leo would probably push Mikey around alot like Mikey has to do everything Leo says, but he wouldn't be so rough about it. Leo would be a jerk-off to Raph though... but in a brotherly way.

If you ever watched the movie What's Eating Gilbert Grape?, You'll notice that the big brother (Johnny Depp) in that movie is a responsible guy who runs the house, but at the same time is kinda a jerk to his siblings... even if he dosn't mean it. He cares for them but is a bit rough at times.
That's how I see Leo.

Mikey is the happy go-lucky one. He's the youngest sibling, so in a lot of ways, he has it easy. Raph is the pissy, aggravated, depressed guy. He's a jerk to Mikey because he can push him around. And he'll be a jerk to Leo because Leo get's on his nerves with his big brother attitude. Donnie is the one who keeps low profile and is the only one who doesn't do anything to piss others off.
Because Donnie never says or does anything dumb like Raph and Mikey, Leo respects him. Leo also gives Donnie props for creating cool ****.

Leo is the eldest brother, and with that, comes the big brother attitude of "I'm better than you because I'm the oldest". So he's going to be cocky and push his bros around (minus Don). He'll feel he has rights to "parent" them and tell them what to do because he's the oldest and he'll kick their asses if they don't listen to him.

Anyone here who has more than one sibling will know what I mean.

It just makes more sense than Leo being this "perfect" sibling and "perfect" son that gets along with everyone and never causes trouble.

Fans tend to think Leo is such a "good boy" when he really isn't supposed to be like that.


I had this fun conversation with Machi about it, and I wrote this to Machi...

I can so see Raph sneaking up behind Leo and jokingly put him in a choke hold, and Leo would just flip out and toss Raph off of him. Leo would yell at Raph and be like, "You F*cker! Try that again and I'll kick your ass! Don't make me put you back in your place!". Raph would be like, "Dude, f*ckin' relax! I'm just messin' with you... A**hole!". Yeah... That's brotherly love right there.

To which she replied...

Raph would have his trademark smirk as Splinter tells Leo to calm down and reminds him how he's gotta be an example for the others...


We had a good laugh about it. But in all honesty, this is very accurate to how an older sibling would act with a younger one.


Any thoughts?

[Sewer Bull]

But hey... They are like quadruples. They mutated at the same moment and gained human identity almost at the same time. Leo wasn't Splinter's first son and only child in the family for some time, he doesn't live longer than his brothers (at least as a mutant turtle), you know what I mean?

[Ryona]

Yes, I understand what you mean, but it's not about actually being the oldest. Yes, they are all about the same age, but Leo certainly took the mantle of Alpha male, and since they're a family, that translates as Leo being the "big brother".

[TheShowstoppa]

But as being the leader of the pack, he must also find the median of how to react. He can't always just be uptight. As you can tell, from the new series, he's acting just as much like a teen as the rest of them. (Being that we're now in season 4, this would make him 19.) He even says himself in the episode "Bad Day," "I do what I have to to protect this family." However, this doesn't mean he needs to act like a stiff all the time. Even the best have to have some fun, and he does.

By the way, I'm also a huge Leo fan.

[Leonardo_]

I never thought of this, while watching the old toon. For me it was the opposite: I had the feeling that he put up with that was Raph said. Perhaps I am wrong?? Or did you only speek about the new toon?
Could be that I come to his defence :D

I myself have got only one brother, 12 years older than me.

[Ryona]

No, no, no, TheShowstoppa. It's not about him being a "stiff" or "uptight". It's about him playing his role as the big brother. I'm just saying that he doesn't fully fulfill that role. See, Leo is pretty much playing all the possitive aspects of a big brother. But he really doesn't play out much of the negative aspects.
I know Leo can be just as young in heart and playful as his brothers... But he just doesn't seem to have much of the "big brother" quirks.


And Leo the 2nd, I know as a fan, you want to view Leo as being this great guy who is perfect and generally a very cool and nice guy... but in all honesty, he really ought to not be so charismatic.
I mean, Hell, I've never known an older sibling to be so nice and cool to his younger ones. It doesn't mean he doesn't like them... It just means he's not going to be considerate of their feelings all the time.

[Leonardo_]

I seldom argued with my older brother, perhaps it's the high age difference.
And I know two families, in which the younger ones are playing the "king", because they are a bit favored by their parents. So it can be otherwise :)

But right. I think if I had a younger sibling I would a bit be like Leo,too, because I do it almost to my friends and the most are younger than me.
Anyway they assure it.
But I don't want and to be that bad and don't hope that I am , because I don't want to lose them.
So I think there is a difference between beeing like this to your siblings or your friends, or what do you mean?

BAH, I talk to much again, sorry.

[OA]

I don't see Leo as taking on a "big brother role"...I think its just his normal personality being expressed that may look like he's taking on the role, due to the peronalities of his bros...I mean, Raph is caught up in all his angst, Mike is just being the fool, and Donny is caught up being all smart, reading, etc.... And I think Leo, not being so caught in any one thing, just took it up himself to act as "in-between" guy, expressing a little of all of theose characters at differnt times...i feel that any one turtle could fully take charge of the group and get similar results as Leo, though maybe not using the same methods...

[Jo269976]

Yea, but he's still the koolist IMO :tcool:

[Ryona]

See, the thing is, there has been alot of misconceptions created of Leo from the fan base as well as the people behind the original animated series.

I think we can all agree that none of the TMNT from the old series was true to their counterpart from the Mirage series.

Leo in the early Mirage series was alot different than the Leo from the original series. He was hard, cold, impatient, cocky, and a bit reckless at times. Towards his brothers, he was usually sociable but rough at times.

The people behind the old series decided to make Leo a rather nice guy who doesn't talk much, but when he does, it's always something helpful, "leader-like", and always something constructive and relevant to what was going on.
While he did boss around the others in the series, it wasn't in an authoritive "big brother" way. It seemed more of a whiny way like, "Come on, guys! Splinter wouldn't want us to do that!" kinda way.

Somewhere down the line, practicly the whole TMNT fan base started to create misconceptions of Leo. Like saying he's so honorable. That's such BS. Leo is only as honorable as the next guy. Just because he talks alot about honor such as his old catch frase "Turtles fight with honor!", and the fact that he weilds katana which people automaticly assume makes Leo very "samurai-like", and since samurai follow a strict code of honor that they would die for, the fan base automaticly assume Leo is the same way.
Another one is that the fan base views Leo as a "straight-arrow". I guy who never causes trouble and never gets into it. He's nice to everyone, and is a fabulous guy in general. All I have to say is, what a croc. Sure, Leo seems to be the most obedient one, but that's only because Leo is just being a big brother. It's basicly an excuse to push his bros around because he feels he has that kind of power that Splinter has since he's the oldest. It's a common elder brother mentality. Technically, Raph can also come down on Mikey if he "misbehaves" for the same reason as Leo.
Leo in the early Mirage comics can be pretty ebrasive, yet in the old series, he gets along with everyone so well.

To me it seems that most Leo fans out there seem to like Leo for the "surface" reasons. Y'know... The typical stuff like because Leo is the leader, wears blue, fights with swords, is the best fighter, ect...
Then you have the misconceptions of Leo which just about everyone believes is the "real" Leo.
Only a very few of the Leo fans actually understand Leo. They like him for more than just the "surface" stuff, some which are misconceptions created by the original series and the majority of the TMNT fan base.
These few people actually go deep into the character of Leonardo and really understand him.
They know that Leo isn't really this great, honorable, good guy who is the perfect sibling/son role-model.
They know that Deep down, Leo is this complicated guy who's just looking out for his bros and working hard at being a superb ninja mainly for his own selfish reasons more than to protect his family.

After going through your first fifteen years with no real threats in your life, you tend to look at martial arts training as more of a hobby rather than skills for survival. Leo likes the hobby more than his bros, so he's going to work hard in it like anyone who loves what they do. He became an amazing fighter for mainly his own gratification rather than to use it to protect his family.

It's kinda like with me and my drawing. I've been doing it for practicly my whole life. I'm pretty amazing at it now, but I don't ever think to myself "****, I need to use my art skills to make money so I can support my family." Hell no. I do it because I enjoy it. Simple as that.

Only after all the craziness that the TMNT went through, did Leo have to start putting his family first before his on personal reasons when training.

[Jo269976]

M'kay :tgrin:

[Machias Banshee]

I love the analysis stuff like this.. Being the youngest of four, I can understand a lot of the 'sibling heirarchy' that takes place in families. Heck, I remember comparing me and my brothers to the TMNT as far back as Middle school..

The old series didnt really go into this kinda thing. They were all portrayed as 'friends' that lived together, which bothered me a bit. Thats when I started getting into writing my own mini-stories, using my own brothers and myself as models for the guys. Seeing Raph as being second eldest, it fit that he was like my second older brother in the way he was with the oldest and all. My "Leo" and "Raph" used to fight constantly, until my parents had to get involved. Its like what I said to Ryona:

The younger would instigate the oldest until he got him into a fighting rage, which would bring in the parent, in the TMNT's case, Splinter. The parent would go after the OLDEST, saying that they've got to calm down and be an example for the others. the younger would use this 'ability' to his advantage, until the Oldest would finally kick his arse, which would get him into trouble again. Vicious lil cycle..

Heh, some of you have probably experienced this. Having this experience as the "Mikey" of the family, I can understand the antics and emotions involved. Whenever I write the characters, I usually find myself thinking about me and my own brothers. I have a Raphael story I'm working on that really goes into Raph's mind, as well as other things.

Ok, I've said too much here, I'll shut up and go scan some pictures..

[Ryona]

i feel that any one turtle could fully take charge of the group and get similar results as Leo, though maybe not using the same methods...

No, I don't agree with that at all.

sure, Don, Raph, or Mikey can try to lead the group and do reasonably well, but they won't do nearly as well as Leo. They just don't fit the part.

I believe that some poeple make natural leaders while some simply don't.

Leo has that natural charismatic "take-charge" kinda charm.
He can look at a bad situation, pull it appart, study and anylize it, and put together a quick, easy, and effective plan that solves the problem(s).


Believe me... I fully understand this. Speaking in the professional world, some people are suited as mannagers while others are suited as assistance.





M'kay :tgrin:

Leo_Rulez, either say something relevant to the thread, or don't post in here at all.

[Masked Ninja]

I dunno if Leo has to be as bad as "cocky" just because he's the eldest. In normal situations, at least.

I myself am the oldest of three. (Wow, another similarity with Leo I didn't catch before! Weird...) Generally I only tended to pull rank when my parents were gone and I was watching the younglings. You know, the whole "Mom put me in charge, so you have to listen." In normal situations, I rarely mentioned it.

Personally, I think that Leo fulfils his "in charge" bit (in the new toon, anyway) by reminding the others what Splinter would say/think before they go and do something stupid. Raph is too strong-willed to let this stop him, and Leo knows this... so by now it's mostly a gesture. He just tags along to do his best to keep his bros out of danger.

Now, I can see him as carrying himself kinda like a star athlete. Take a girl from my highschool for example. She was definitely confident with her abilities; after all, she placed fourth in the state cross country meet. But she never rubbed it in anyone's face or demanded special treatment, which is what I admired about her. She would go red every time the coach would praise her in front of the team. But she didn't lack confidence.

I guess what I'm saying is - it is possible for Leo to act the way he does in the new toon. That he may just be an extraordinary guy with humility and talent like my teammate. That's probably why his "honorable" personality doesn't rub me the wrong way -I've seen it in person before.

Of course he's got his flaws - Raph can't keep his mouth shut when arguing with Leo... but then again, neither can Leo. They're both strong-willed, stubborn turtles; the only difference is Leo has had more success with self-control.

Oh, and before I finish up... for the record, I always liked Leo for being the blue guy with swords. (I'd forgotten about the leader thing.) But when the new toon came out, I went online to look 'em up. Having been a fan of the old toon at age 5, I was pleasantly surprised to rediscover that they had distinct personalities. And I was seriously creeped out by how close the Leonardo profiles were to describing me. Some of Don's qualities did the same thing. And now I remember that I'm the oldest? Yow. So yeah... I like to think I know where I'm coming from when I analyze his personality.

*still needs to read Vol. 1 Mirage with desperateness*

[Utrom]

Ryona, you’re only really focusing on the Leonardo from the original comics. You can’t simply say that the Mirage Leonardo is the definitive Leonardo. Every incarnation of the turtles has portrayed the character differently, but that doesn’t mean that they are portraying him incorrectly. His personality has never been the same in any of the incarnations of the TMNT, and in each one Leonardo was a different character.

But I do agree with you that there are a lot of misconceptions regarding Leonardo, and who he really is in all the mediums. A lot of fans just seem to watch what Leo does and what he says, but they don’t seem to really look for the reasons why he does or says those things. Like you said, he is a very complex character (Well, maybe not in the old toon.)

[Leonardo_]

The people behind the old series decided to make Leo a rather nice guy who doesn't talk much, but when he does, it's always something helpful, "leader-like", and always something constructive and relevant to what was going on.


I don't know the new toon, so I said this. :ohwell:


To me it seems that most Leo fans out there seem to like Leo for the "surface" reasons. Y'know... The typical stuff like because Leo is the leader, wears blue, fights with swords, is the best fighter, ect...


Yes, this I have noticed, too. A pity I think :ohwell:




They know that Leo isn't really this great, honorable, good guy who is the perfect sibling/son role-model.

I myself never said, that he is perfect or that cool....and I am not,too


After going through your first fifteen years with no real threats in your life, you tend to look at martial arts training as more of a hobby rather than skills for survival. Leo likes the hobby more than his bros, so he's going to work hard in it like anyone who loves what they do.

I know it from my ninjutsu training and so I have got some problems with my boyfriend, who meant I would prefer my training to him. Right english??

In general I say although that he is selfless and a guy, who is OK ( like his brothers, too, of course ) who loves his family.

Luckily I can say that in october I can see the new toon finally :D

[Weapon X]

To me it seems that most Leo fans out there seem to like Leo for the "surface" reasons. Y'know... The typical stuff like because Leo is the leader, wears blue, fights with swords, is the best fighter, ect...
Those were the reasons I liked him/he was my favorite, but something about his dedication made me like him alot too, knowing that he'd do anything for his brothers made him that much greater. I still like him, it's just I've had a little change of heart recently which made me go towards Raph more, but Leo is still the "Best" Turtle in terms of the word.

[XERO]

I guess that it's the fact that Leonardo strives for perfection that makes him so complex a person. It's not his fault, though, at least not entirely.

[Katie]

I know how it is to have alot of siblings. I am one of 5....and the only girl...and the youngest. My oldest brother is definitely a Leo. And he is Definitly hard to take sometimes. Actually, I guess I could peg each of my brothers with a turtle personality. My Youngest brother is the cute one who always charms his way out of trouble and we just kind of chalk it up to him, being him. And my middle brother is a Don. The eternal peace keeper. Always putting out fires and everyone's best friend. And the other oldest twin...yeah, the Raph one. He is Twins with my Leo brother and they almost ALWAYS have opposite points of view.

I look at the turtles that way. To strong opinions, a peace keeper, and the guy showing out to get attention.

How do I fit into all that mess I just described? I STAY OUT OF IT ;)

[Kali]

As the oldest of four, I’ll admit I have some of those “negative aspects” where my siblings are concerned, that really don’t come out at other times. That whole “I’ve been around longer, and I *know*” attitude. Probably one reason I’m not especially fond of Leo, knowing what's there. :lol:

But, Splinter’s family isn’t exactly standard. Their lifestyle probably does have an effect on the roles in the family. I mean, I know and am fully prepared to defend the lives of my siblings, but I don’t have to do it every other week.

There are surprisingly few people who take the time to dig into the Turtles’ (and other characters’) personalities. Not that that’s a bad thing. I love a good psychological dissection, but most of the time I just want to enjoy it on a more subconscious level.

[Hannah]

I'm the second oldest of four... and the oldest that lives at home. So basically, like, most of the time I'm like the oldest. I'm not like Leo at all. Infact, I really *hate* Leonardo. I see.. a goody-two-shoes character... always has to be perfect... always better than everyone... ugh. I just don't like him at all.

[XERO]

I think that if you were the oldest, hannah, you would probably think differently about Leo. You'd understand where he's coming from.

[Ryona]

I see.. a goody-two-shoes character...

See, this is a good example of a common misconception about Leo.
Lots of people view Leo as such a "goody-two-shoes" because of how he was portrayed in the original series.

Hanna, seems to me that you dislike Leo based on the misconceptions.


When growing up watching the original series, I thought that the Leo in that series was the definite Leo simply because I didn't know any other Leos.
Then, around the early ninties, I discovered the Mirage comics and was stunned at how different Leo was. It's what really made me fall in love with Leonardo.


Hannah, I strongly suggest you check out the early Mirage comics. They would certainly open your eyes to the real Leo.

[Kali]

There’s also the problem of people interpreting different personality traits differently. Consider this true story: A girl goes to a new college. She’s very shy, and doesn’t know anyone, so for awhile she stays by herself. Eventually, she does get to know some people. Upon getting to know her, one says, “You’re much different than I thought you were. You’re so nice, I thought you were a snob for not talking to anyone.”

This happens in real life, and can effect how people see fictional characters as well. I’ve read books I borrowed from friends, and while discussing them discovered that we interpreted actions and intentions very differently! What one person sees as confident, another sees as cocky. One’s introvert is another’s anti-social. One’s loyal fan is another’s obsessed. ;)

[XERO]

We also have the power to change our way of thinking.

The only problem is, we'd have to want to, and it would also require a lot of patience with one's self.

[Ryona]

Oh, I totally undertsand what you mean, Kali. *nods*

It just sets me off when people dislike Leo (or any character at that) for such reasons.
"Oh, I hate Leo because (insert misconceptions in here)".
It's not a valid reason to dislike someone.

It's kinda like people disliking an actor based on what the media has hyped up the public to believe. Then you find out on TV from a personal interview with the actor that he's quite different from the misconceptions the media has created.

[Hannah]

I have read some of the comics before.. I dont like him still.

And Ive actually only seen about 4 episodes of the original cartoon. i didnt judge him from that

[XERO]

Well, Ryona, sooner or later, the media will catch up to you. :ohwell:

The media caught up with Leonardo the day the old cartoon began in 1987.

[Masked Ninja]

We also have the power to change our way of thinking.

The only problem is, we'd have to want to, and it would also require a lot of patience with one's self.*bows low* Thank you for those words of widsom, sensei... :tlol: :tpizza:

Yeah... Leo is definitely not goody-two-shoes. If he were, he'd never fight with Raph over dumb stuff, never let his bros even think about leaving against Splinter's will (instead of tagging along to make sure they're OK), etc. While the new toon does give Leo all the coolness he deserves, they're also careful to make sure he gets taken down a few pegs every once in a while, more so than the others.

For example, "The Shredder Strikes pt. 1"... Leo beats his brothers in training and assumes it's because he has the "superior weapon." Splinter then proceeds to kick his butt with bare paws and a stick. The others don't need this kind of "pwned" moments because they aren't striving for perfection. Leo is. Instead, stuff happens like... ehh, things breaking through to Raph's soft side. Mikey being forced to be serious. Stuff like that.

@Katie: It's weird how that seems to work out, doesn't it? My sister is the second oldest and her favorite is Donatello... yet she herself is the most Raph-like of us all. (She is 15, but still!) My brother is the youngest, and he's a lot like his favorite, Michelangelo. He's not the dumb joke-type, but he does talk a lot and is really sensitive. Maybe even over-sensitive. And I fall into Leo's spot as the oldest (with maybe some Don). I mean, what other position is for a person who freaks out because they got a 94% on an assignment? :trolleye:

[Ryona]

I have read some of the comics before.. I dont like him still.

And Ive actually only seen about 4 episodes of the original cartoon. i didnt judge him from that


Well, that's good to know, but I still don't see how anyone can dislike Leo.
Based on the new series, he's kinda like the cool kid in class that everyone votes to be class president because he's so charismatic and smart.



And I totally agree with what you said, Masked Ninja.

[Kali]

Well, that's good to know, but I still don't see how anyone can dislike Leo.
He's kinda like the cool kid in class that everyone votes to be class president because he's so charismatic and smart.
I hated those people when I was in school. :D

In the larger picture, there really is no such thing as a single type of person that everyone is going to like. There's always going to be another personality type that clashes with them. I think that's one of the reasons TMNT was/is so popular, because no matter what kind of "hero" you like, you're gonna like at least one of the TMNT.

[XERO]

*bows low* Thank you for those words of widsom, sensei... :tlol: :tpizza:

Heh, I learned from the best. ;)

Based on the new series, he's kinda like the cool kid in class that everyone votes to be class president because he's so charismatic and smart.

And yet he still makes mistakes that can affect the entire school.

Judging from the spoilers of the 3 episodes from the 4th Season, it seems he undergoes a radical personality transformation. I'm anxious to see the motives behind it. :D

[OA]

No, I don't agree with that at all.

sure, Don, Raph, or Mikey can try to lead the group and do reasonably well, but they won't do nearly as well as Leo. They just don't fit the part.

I believe that some poeple make natural leaders while some simply don't.

Leo has that natural charismatic "take-charge" kinda charm.
He can look at a bad situation, pull it appart, study and anylize it, and put together a quick, easy, and effective plan that solves the problem(s).


Believe me... I fully understand this. Speaking in the professional world, some people are suited as mannagers while others are suited as assistance.

See, I don't think its right to say that. How can we truly know how any one of the turtles would fare since from the getgo Leo's taken it upon himself to lead and "be in charge"? You're right: Leo is naturally a "take charge" kinda guy but that in and of itself doesn't make him the best leader...you say the others "dont fit the part"...great leaders come in all sizes and shapes and personalities... When things get rough and you need someone to step up, I feel that anyone of those guys could do the job...they are all masters of their craft and have learned from the best, in ninja and morality (splinter)...just because day in and day out they dont feel the need to show it like Leo doesn't mean that cant do it...dont get me wrong, I like Leo..alot..but not anymore than any of the others...i feel he brings something important and unique to the team, as do the rest....again, for the past 20 yrs or so we have seen Leo lead, so its very, VERY hard to picture anyone of the other turtles leading and succeeding as Leo has...but don't let that one fact, the fact they we are USED to seeing him lead, shield you from the idea that anyone of the others could do his job, and maybe better...

[Hannah]

I hated those people when I was in school. :D
Exactly. o_o

[Ryona]

don't let that one fact, the fact they we are USED to seeing him lead, shield you from the idea that anyone of the others could do his job, and maybe better...

See now that right there isn't fair too. I agree with alot of what you said, but to say that they can maybe do better is just not justified.

Donnie is the Tech wizard, but could any of the others take his place and do better? Yes, any of them can become a tech wiz too, but do better? Hell no. Donnie has a natural affinity for that kinda stuff, much like Leo has a natural affinity as a leader.

Infact, there was an episode in the original series where Leo disappeared and the other three had to deal with Shredder and Krang themselves. Each of them took turns on being the leader but did a lousy job of it. It was only when Leo showed up towards the end did they actually function well afterwards and stop Shredder and Krang's destructive plans.

Of course, that's just the old series though, so chances are they would be more successful as leaders in other mediums, but the fact still remains that Leo is the "born" leader in the group and will do a much better job than the others can hope to achieve.

[Leonardo Mystic]

Ryona, I can't help feeling you're being stereotypical here with Leonardo on the big brother status. I'll admit I was a lot of things, but never a jerk or a bragger.

I am the oldest of one younger sibling, a brother, who acts much like Raph, and a little bit of Mikey. We get along for the most part, but sometimes he annoys the freakin' hell out of me. I admit I get impatient with him fairly quickly, and start telling him to put a lid on it. I can't seem to brush it off, and go on. For the most part, however, I am very patient.

I am a loner. I usually tend to isolate myself from people, except for a few very close friends at work and online. These same friends say they have never known anyone so sweet, and thoughtful. I am extremely introverted, and keep my emotions bottled up. When I was in school, I talked to no one. I was withdrawn and shy, and people often bullied or picked on me for this reason or others they found worth harrassing. I was a very exceptional student, and usually teacher's pet. My escape was reading, and I drowned myself in books. I also discovered later I had a gift for storytelling myself when I started to dabble at short stories. People often tell me I write wonderfully, but I blush, and feel self-conscious each time. It's the same when I do an exceptional job at work. I appreciate comments like that, but I in no way brag about it. Sometimes I'm dissatisfied, and feel I can do better. This is where my perfectionism comes in to play.

I don't do well in chaotic environments. I like stablity and control. I don't like being a leader, but I've noticed I seem to have a natural ability for it just the same.

As the oldest sibling in the family, I have had to go through some tough sh*t in my life. My side of the story often didn't matter, and I was always blamed even when I was innocent because I had to set an example. And I wasn't the favored one at all. I was lucky if I even got the time of day. In this aspect, I grew very bitter towards my brother during childhood because he had such an untouchable status I despised. One does get tired rather quickly for brunting the punishment on both ends. I'll admit I did some mean-spirited things to him I regret now. Though whenever came the instance someone tried to hurt my little brother, no one fought fiercer than I did. I protected him with my life. I would still do it.

I understand Leonardo so well because he is just like me, and it's why I fell in love with him. He is a kindred spirit; someone I can relate to. It was movie-one Leo I was first drawn to, and delved into his character, analyzing and picking it apart to find all the aspects. Maybe that's why I watched it so much. ^^'

[Ryona]

Ryona, I can't help feeling you're being stereotypical here with Leonardo on the big brother status. I'll admit I was a lot of things, but never a jerk or a bragger.

It's not about being stereotypical... It's about being true and logical. It's based on alot of psycological aspects.

Givin the fact that Leo grew up with Splinter and his brothers being the only people in his life means that they make up his world. Splinter is a highly respected, powerful, and authorative figure in their lives. Splinter is the law and is in a sense been around since the begining of time to the boys. He almost has a godly-like status towards them. The boys have never known any other wise, grown-up figures like Splinter.

Since Leo is the big brother, to him that puts him in this incredible status. It makes him that much closer to what Splinter is to them and ought to give Leo a feeling of being king in Splinter's absense.

Because Leo can also defeat his brothers in combat, that also puts a pretty big feather in Leo's cap and ought to make him smug and cocky at times.

You have to understand that for fifteen years these five individuals have been the world to each other.

It's much different than our lives which happens to be influenced by thousands of people who interact with us.

Think a lion pack for example. Now a group of a couple of lions may be the only lions on the plain. The alpha male of that pack is going to act like ****ing king shi*t because there's really no one outside of their circle who's going to challange him.

[Leonardo_]

Some people say that his character is not very authentic, because the reality is much different. But, man, it's just a fictional character.

[shuriken]

I think everyone has a different perception of what Leo or any Turtle should be like. I myself never saw Leo as perfect but srtiving to be the best ninja he could be. Of course I think that Leo is morre like the "let's see what you can do" kinda guy than the "I'm gonna kick your ass". I just don't see him being that cocky, Yeah sometimes he's overconfident but to go to the extent of rubbing it in someone's face over and over to me is more like Mikey. Like my older brothe ris pretty damn cocky. Being the youngest of three I relate more to Mikey kinda silly and laid back. My older sister is kinda like Leo, Always watching out for me and being the levelheaded one, but can sometimes be a real pain. My older Brother is kinda Like Raph, he mostly watches out for himself but there when we needd him ya know.
Well I think I've said enough so yeah.....

[Leonardo_]

My older sister is kinda like Leo, Always watching out for me and being the levelheaded one, but can sometimes be a real pain.


I think that is normal for older siblings.

[Leonardo Mystic]

Since Leo is the big brother, to him that puts him in this incredible status. It makes him that much closer to what Splinter is to them and ought to give Leo a feeling of being king in Splinter's absense.

Because Leo can also defeat his brothers in combat, that also puts a pretty big feather in Leo's cap and ought to make him smug and cocky at times.

You have to understand that for fifteen years these five individuals have been the world to each other.


*nods* I do understand. I know what it's like to feel important, usually when I'm left in charge at work. I'm considered one of the best, but I don't flaunt it. At least, I don't think I am. I'm not intentionally trying to show-up other people.

[Ryona]

Yeah, I understand what you mean, but it's a whole different mentality with the boys.

See, lots of people believe that Leo is this bashful modest guy. I really don't see how that can be possible.

A person is only modest because they know there's a ton of people out there who can best them. They've heard, and seen better.
When a person compliments another for an amazing job well done, that other person becomes modest because they've witnessed better, so they feel they don't deserve such praise.

With Leo, it's a totally different story. For their first fifteen years, they've never known any other fighters. Sure, Splinter has told them stories and such, but the boys never even met another person, so how can they really take it fully to heart?

To the boys, Splinter is a combat god. He's untouchable and has a seemingly unlimited amount of skill and power. They've never known anyother masters who could challange Splinter. So, where it stood, they believed Splinter was the most powerful force in the world.

Leo, who happens to be the best fighter next to Splinter automaticly makes Leo the second most powerful person on the planet to the boys. They don't know any better. They never winessed any fighters out there who can challange Leo. Sinse Splinter is the almighty powerful combat god to the boys, they can never hope to be a challange to him, so by default, that makes Leo the only one that the other boys can hope to challange. Leo knows this, so this makes him quite smug and cocky, knowing that he's the best fighter in their little world. This being the case, Leo would be far from bashful and modest when commented on his fighting abilities.


I for one would have loved to see Leo in the new series start off as a very smug and cocky guy who eventually learns that there are infact fighters out there who can challange him and even best him.

[Leonardo_]

But somewhere I have read that he has got a big lack of self-confidence and knows that he is NOT perfect, so not the best. So how could he be smug and cocky?! Or was it an other account of his character?

Also I don't think that you can say this character description is right and the other is wrong.

In addition I think it's not bad, if you get a praise, that you can be proud of yourself. I am every time my sensei praised me during our practise. I feel very honored and like to tell my family or friends.
I hope that I understood your discussion right...

[OA]

See now that right there isn't fair too. I agree with alot of what you said, but to say that they can maybe do better is just not justified.

Donnie is the Tech wizard, but could any of the others take his place and do better? Yes, any of them can become a tech wiz too, but do better? Hell no. Donnie has a natural affinity for that kinda stuff, much like Leo has a natural affinity as a leader.

Infact, there was an episode in the original series where Leo disappeared and the other three had to deal with Shredder and Krang themselves. Each of them took turns on being the leader but did a lousy job of it. It was only when Leo showed up towards the end did they actually function well afterwards and stop Shredder and Krang's destructive plans.

Of course, that's just the old series though, so chances are they would be more successful as leaders in other mediums, but the fact still remains that Leo is the "born" leader in the group and will do a much better job than the others can hope to achieve.

You are absolutely right about any of the other turtles trying to be a tech wizard...I strongly feel that they couldn't even come close...but we're are talking about LEO here...and leading in particular...again, I feel that any one of the turtles could lead this bunch and when I said "maybe better", I meant exactly that: MAYBE...who knows how any one of the others would have turned out if they were leading...the same way that if Splinter would have never found the turtles, they MAYBE would have still learned ninja...probably not, but the possibility is still there...there's always the shear chance that things could happen...thats what i meant when I said maybe better...

And as far as the old toon ep, you can't honestly base your opinion on the others leading based off of that ep...I mean, I dont remember that one in particular, but I'm sure it was meant to be funny and poked fun at them trying to take the mantle of leading...in all honestly, to base any assumption of character and personality from that one medium, or any one medium for that matter, isn't justified..you have to look at all the mediums as a whole...

Lastly, i still don't see how you can say "and will do a much better job than the others can hope to achieve."...we have no proof of that...only what we have seen up to the point: 20 yrs of Leo leading...granted if you do something long enough, you better be at least somewhat good at it, but that in and of itself doesn't make him the best leader of the bunch...you say he was "born leader"; that may (or may not) be true...that still doesn't make him the best leader

[Ryona]

You are absolutely right about any of the other turtles trying to be a tech wizard...I strongly feel that they couldn't even come close...but we're are talking about LEO here...and leading in particular...

Wow... I guess you don't think Leo does a stellar job at what he does unlike Donnie with what he does...

Yeah, I guess Leo's Leadership is pretty mediocre and can be done by anyone. :roll:


again, I feel that any one of the turtles could lead this bunch and when I said "maybe better", I meant exactly that: MAYBE...who knows how any one of the others would have turned out if they were leading...the same way that if Splinter would have never found the turtles, they MAYBE would have still learned ninja...probably not, but the possibility is still there...there's always the shear chance that things could happen...thats what i meant when I said maybe better...[/QOUTE]

Ok, I guess what you're basicly saying is that anything is possible. Well, yeah, by that logic, it's true then. They could possibly do a better job.

But you have to understand that the statement "Anything is possible" doesn't exactly mean that it can very well happen. Kinda like it is possible to survive after getting shot in the head, but it's not very common. I highly doubt anyone would take the chance.


[QUOTE=tmnterminator]And as far as the old toon ep, you can't honestly base your opinion on the others leading based off of that ep...I mean, I dont remember that one in particular, but I'm sure it was meant to be funny and poked fun at them trying to take the mantle of leading...in all honestly, to base any assumption of character and personality from that one medium, or any one medium for that matter, isn't justified..you have to look at all the mediums as a whole...

Um, I didn't base my oppinion on that one episode. I was just using it as an example.

It seems you didn't catch this...

Of course, that's just the old series though, so chances are they would be more successful as leaders in other mediums


Lastly, i still don't see how you can say "and will do a much better job than the others can hope to achieve."...we have no proof of that...only what we have seen up to the point: 20 yrs of Leo leading...granted if you do something long enough, you better be at least somewhat good at it, but that in and of itself doesn't make him the best leader of the bunch...you say he was "born leader"; that may (or may not) be true...that still doesn't make him the best leader

Well, the fact that Leo took on the alpha male role at a very early age has to indicate something about him. He's naturally inclined to be the leader. You can convince yourself otherwise but it doesn't change the fact that it's there. This is Leo.
You say that we're so used to Leo being a leader after all these years that we can't think of the others as taking that role. Has it accured to you that based on how each of them are (character-wise), that they have been fitted with the roles they play?
If Don, Raph, or Mikey were to be the leader from the start rather than Leo, this would mean that they would be quite different in character. We would have an alternate version of the guys right there. They might have some similarities to the boys we know, but they would still be different people from their counter part in our reality.

The Raph we know wouldn't make such a great leader. He's too rash, tends to make bad decission, and often takes stupid risks. The team would get killed pretty soon. Also, Raph is the type to lead one person at a time (himself). That's why he usually prefers to do things on his own.
The Mikey we know wouldn't fair to well too. Mikey is very smart, but he's not a quick thinker. I don't think he would be able to lead the team in a chaotic environment with little time to develope quick stratagies and plans. It would be alot of pressure on him, and he doesn't like anything that weighs him down.
The Donnie we know would actually make a pretty good leader, but he lacks that heart of a lion that Leo has to lead the team into potential death.
Donnie's very intelligent, level-headed, and cool under fire like Leo, but it's just simply not in him to lead.


Anyway... I think I've explained enough.

[Jester]

Well....I wonder. We all assume that since Leo is the the "leader" he's the oldest. Maybe he's a middle child. From what I've read prevously, Raph would more exibit the traits of "oldest" brother. The way he pokes at the other 3 and the like. Maybe he's in fact the oldest sibling. That could also factor in Raph's apparent jealousy of Leo for his leadership position. The only real problem may be the fact that Raphie will follow Leo's lead when it's all on the line, but that may just be him putting his ego to bed in order to survive.

I see Leo as dedicated and honorable. Those are his primary traits (guaging from the new toon mostly mind you.) He clings to honoring his father/master and the code of Bushido. He is the most studious of the boys, ninjitsu speaking. Where as Raphie is all brawn, Donnie is all brains and Mikey's all....well....Mikey. it's posible he's the eldest brother but I see hime more as second oldest, with Raphie posibily being older. Where as Raph feels he should lead by his age and brawn, Leo actually took up the mantle due to his attitude and study. That's just my opinion.

[OA]

Wow... I guess you don't think Leo does a stellar job at what he does unlike Donnie with what he does...

Yeah, I guess Leo's Leadership is pretty mediocre and can be done by anyone. :roll:

I've never said his leadership ability is mediocre or even that it's poor. I think he does a great job. What I am saying though, is that I feel that any one of the others could potentially lead this group effectively as well, if given the circumstance or desire



Ok, I guess what you're basicly saying is that anything is possible. Well, yeah, by that logic, it's true then. They could possibly do a better job.

But you have to understand that the statement "Anything is possible" doesn't exactly mean that it can very well happen. Kinda like it is possible to survive after getting shot in the head, but it's not very common. I highly doubt anyone would take the chance.

I think getting shot in the head and surviving is a bit more etreme and farfetched then one of the other tmnt stepping up, leading, and succeeding...of course, then you get into the definition of "success" and thats a whole other bowl of crap...


Um, I didn't base my oppinion on that one episode. I was just using it as an example.

It seems you didn't catch this...

Yea, I did see that...i just thought it pretty silly to use that example, out of I'm sure many, to show how the others wouldn't/couldn't succeed as leader...i mean, the old school toon in general can't be taken seriously, at least in reagrds to deep thought about character delvopment, personality, morals, etc.



If Don, Raph, or Mikey were to be the leader from the start rather than Leo, this would mean that they would be quite different in character. We would have an alternate version of the guys right there. They might have some similarities to the boys we know, but they would still be different people from their counter part in our reality.

Well, thats exactly my point. If one of the others woulda stepped up, they might be completely ( or not) different from what we see today. And in the diiference, they might have become a great leader...posibbly better than Leo..again, through the realm of possibilty... I mean, do you think that the others are all so inferior that even if they changed something just a little, they couldn't be successful, at least as successful as Leo, maybe a bit better/worse? What if Raph toned down his anger and rash approaches and took his time a bit more; what if Mikey took life a bit more serioulsy, considered things more important than his whims and fantasies; what if Don finally realized that with his tremendous knowledge, strenght, and fighting ability he could truly be a force to be reckoned with? All of these things could hypthotecially happen in a blink of eye with a little thought on their part, and bam- you got yourself a potentail leader

The Raph we know wouldn't make such a great leader. He's too rash, tends to make bad decission, and often takes stupid risks. The team would get killed pretty soon. Also, Raph is the type to lead one person at a time (himself). That's why he usually prefers to do things on his own.
The Mikey we know wouldn't fair to well too. Mikey is very smart, but he's not a quick thinker. I don't think he would be able to lead the team in a chaotic environment with little time to develope quick stratagies and plans. It would be alot of pressure on him, and he doesn't like anything that weighs him down.
The Donnie we know would actually make a pretty good leader, but he lacks that heart of a lion that Leo has to lead the team into potential death.
Donnie's very intelligent, level-headed, and cool under fire like Leo, but it's just simply not in him to lead.

All of these ideas are based off of the Donnie, Raph, and Mikey "we know" as you said. And you are probably right; with the way they are now they probably wouldn't make for a good leader (though they could). But what I'm saying is that if Leo hadn't taken upon himself to take the role he took, I have a feeling the others would NOT have turned exactly as they had. In fact, IMO, having Leo around gives them the opportunity to be a bit odd and pursue what they like; why worry, when Leo is doing more then enough for the whole team?

I mean, I look at my current real world situation: I feel that I personally can effectively lead a team....I can motivate and get things done..however, currently I have a supervisor, and that is their job to do: they need to motivate, they need to make sure things get done, etc. So rather than be a leader, I do as I'm told, work hard, and generally worry about myself rather than the whole team...however, in a blink, if it was called upon me, i could step up, take charge, and do a damn good job...but again, if you are basing my ability to lead based off of what you currently see, then you might not see that....but your inability to see that doesnt mean that I can't lead...

I liken that scenario to the turtles...why would any of the others step up when clearly Leo wants to be in that postion...so they do their job (fight) and call it a night...

ok...i'm goin to sleep. Yall have a great Labor Day weekend!! :)

[Ryona]

Yeah, understand what you mean. I can't really agrue with you there, tmnterminator... But Just remember that Leo still is most inclined to be the leader from the get go... and he'll do a superb job simply because it's in him.






Well....I wonder. We all assume that since Leo is the the "leader" he's the oldest. Maybe he's a middle child. From what I've read prevously, Raph would more exibit the traits of "oldest" brother. The way he pokes at the other 3 and the like.
it's posible he's the eldest brother but I see hime more as second oldest, with Raphie posibily being older. Where as Raph feels he should lead by his age and brawn, Leo actually took up the mantle due to his attitude and study. That's just my opinion.

How can you justify what you're saying? Raph shows traits of being the oldest? Huh?? did I miss something???
When does he ever show traits of being the oldest. He perfectly acts like the second oldest child who gets into fights with the eldest sibling because he doesn't want to deal with his crap. Ask anyone here who actually has more than one sibling here. Infact, I do believe that they have already made their examples and comparisons to the TMNT and they're own siblings, and no, none of their eldest siblings are like Raph. Maybe they're eldest sibling is rude and a jerk sometimes, but then again, that's what this whole thread is pretty much about. And the whole thing about Raph poking at his three bros is just him being a pessimistic whiny brat who pushes Mikey around because he can, and gets in Leo's face for his big brother bullcrap.

Tell me this... If Raph is supposingly the oldest, than why was it LEO who took the role of alpha male at a very early age? Hmm?
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it in our society for the eldest to take on the role of alpha male? Usually that is the case. So, isn't most likely that Leo would be the oldest?
By your logic, any of the TMNT can be the oldest. This may infact actually be the case. Mikey may be the oldest for all we know. But then again, the TMNT are most likely about the same age, so it makes this who argument rather pointless.
All we can base on is what's presented to us. Leo is the alpha male and took on the "big brother" role way back when they were just little kids. BAM. That inclines Leo to being the oldest.

The only medium in which Raph shows any indication that he may be the oldest is in the first movie. That's it. Don't base your whole perseption on just that.

But like you said, that's just your opinion, so I suppose you can believe in whatever you want to believe regardless.

[Jester]

Raphie's said himself that he thought he'd be the top dog, the alpha male...because he was stronger and braver. Leo proved that he could take the leadership role by his study, by excersising his mind to trump Raphie's shere brawn. Most of the time the Alpha male is the one who is more physicaly powerful. That would be Raph. Leo harnesed himself through dedicated study to overcome this disadvantage. The consept of "alpha male" in human (or humanoid) terms is a bit diffrent that the animalistic aspect. Humands can overcome the apperent strength diffrences and use their wits, which is what leo's done.

[Ryona]

Raphie's said himself that he thought he'd be the top dog, the alpha male...because he was stronger and braver.

Wow, is Raph an ignorant guy or what? Stronger? Not likely. I would say that Leo and Raph are about the same in strength. Braver? Please... Taking stupid risks doesn't make you "braver". It just makes you an idiot.

There has been plenty of times that Leo has wrestled with Raph and matched his strength. And there has been plenty of times that Leo has done acts of sheer bravery... Bravery reminiscent of Hercules himself.

Leo took on the alpha male role for alot of reasons. Not only is it because he's physically the strongest (along with Raph), or because he's the smartest (along with Don but in more practical fields), but also because his fighting abilities trumps all three of the guys.


That argument of yours is so invalid, Jester.

[Jester]

Fine...I fold...leo's the greatest...we're all ignorent fools to think otherwise.

[Ryona]

That attitude is not necessary.

I'm clearing things up. That's all. If you feel stumped by what I'm saying, don't be a child about it. It's all facts and observation. Just deal with it.

I'm certainly not saying that Leo is the greatest. If anything, I've actually put down Leo quite a bit in this thread already. But in the same time, I have to be honest and set the facts straight and fix any misconceptions.

[Machias Banshee]

Ok, things are getting a lil heated up in here. Lets calm down folks. Its just varying opinions and theories about characters, nothing to get riled up about.

[Jester]

And i'm thoughtfully thinking through some facts aswell. Raph and Leo were both striving for that leader/alpha male position (Donnie and Mikey could care less about being in that leadership position). Raph tried to lead by strenght where as Leo lead by keeping a cool head and letting his training kick in. Leo then took up the alpha male role, and though Raph reluctantly submits to leo's style of leadership, he wishes that he could lead his way, hence the bickering between the 2. They both are alpha males and both have diffrent styles of leadership, of which Leo's is the more effective.

[Ryona]

Well, that I can agree, though I do believe it's more of Raph's nature to be left alone to do things on his own rather than have the responsablities of leading and looking out for others at a constant basis.
Leo naturally fits the role and is the "take-charge" type, where as Raph is more of the rebel wanting to do things his way.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

If it comes to who's physically oldest, none of them are. They're all teenagers. Who is most mature? Definitely Leo. Does that necessarily mean he is the oldest inside?

The key here is sibling rivalry. Raphael is very emotional. He may have been able to take the alpha male role at one point but could not focus enough on it. He lost something he wanted very bad and has undergone a lot of emotional turmoil, much like the oldest would act when a new sibling is born.

Leo carries a big weight on his shoulders-- since his brothers are sometimes too emotional or distracted otherwise, he has taken it upon himself to protect them. It isn't because he thinks he is better than they are or because he is cocky. The only time he shows any signs of that behavior is when he proposes his word as God's (so to speak) and disallows a "go" unless it's on his word (a perfect example is Return to New York Part 1). Otherwise, although he and Raph argue, they've been through it enough times that Leo is generally accepted as knowing what to do and Raph's input can very proactive attitude can often be appreciated for what it's actually worth (sometimes it is helpful!). Don and Mike's mindsets are more attuned to Leo's leadership than Raph's anyway, as they dislike charging headlong into fights, and, like Leo, prefer the fray to come to them. It doesn't mean they wouldn't be good leaders if such is what they wanted to do, but they do prefer to stay behind the scenes. Donny specializes and shines the most in engineering and therefore keeps mainly to that, while Mike prefers to follow orders as long as he is able to have fun doing so. Again, they both trust Leo a lot more than Raph.

Back to Raph's acting as the eldest, though; I don't think tmnterminator is too off-base with that. I'm personally the eldest of three, and I'm not the most level-headed, I'm not the most logical, I don't want to take a leadership role, and I probably couldn't. I'm not a teenager and have moved beyond that. Mike and Don pretty much have a "third-place" mentality at this point and don't mind. Raph has just recently been passed by, and it makes sense that he would be aggravated. He has beaten Leo in physical combat at the peak of his anger, and that kind of thing doesn't happen too often between siblings without major animosity involved. None of them is the oldest, but Raphael is definitely not disqualified from it. As far as alpha male goes, Raphael has recently been passed by, but feels like he can get it back. This, once again, given Raph's determination, does not disqualify him from regaining the title.

[Jester]

:o Wow....very well written and thought out SLJ....

[Ryona]

If it comes to who's physically oldest, none of them are. They're all teenagers.

I agree. They're all most likely about the same age.


Who is most mature? Definitely Leo. Does that necessarily mean he is the oldest inside?

Most likely.



The key here is sibling rivalry. Raphael is very emotional. He may have been able to take the alpha male role at one point but could not focus enough on it. He lost something he wanted very bad and has undergone a lot of emotional turmoil, much like the oldest would act when a new sibling is born.

That's an interesting theory/assumption, but that really is all that is... Just an assumption. We really don't know when and how Leo took the mantle as the alpha male/eldest brother but it's most likely for the most obvious reasons over anything else.


Leo carries a big weight on his shoulders-- since his brothers are sometimes too emotional or distracted otherwise, he has taken it upon himself to protect them. It isn't because he thinks he is better than they are or because he is cocky. The only time he shows any signs of that behavior is when he proposes his word as God's (so to speak) and disallows a "go" unless it's on his word (a perfect example is Return to New York Part 1). Otherwise, although he and Raph argue, they've been through it enough times that Leo is generally accepted as knowing what to do and Raph's input can very proactive attitude can often be appreciated for what it's actually worth (sometimes it is helpful!). Don and Mike's mindsets are more attuned to Leo's leadership than Raph's anyway, as they dislike charging headlong into fights, and, like Leo, prefer the fray to come to them. It doesn't mean they wouldn't be good leaders if such is what they wanted to do, but they do prefer to stay behind the scenes. Donny specializes and shines the most in engineering and therefore keeps mainly to that, while Mike prefers to follow orders as long as he is able to have fun doing so. Again, they both trust Leo a lot more than Raph.

I agree with all this, but you guys seem to think that Raph wants to be incharge. Didn't it accure that he just wants to do things his way?


Back to Raph's acting as the eldest

Like I said to Jester, I don't see any indications of Raph acting as the eldest. This just seems to be more like wishful thinking by certain fans.

I'm personally the eldest of three, and I'm not the most level-headed, I'm not the most logical, I don't want to take a leadership role, and I probably couldn't.

While that can be the case with a few eldest siblings, it's not very common.

Psychologicly speeking, Leo shows all the traits of the common eldest sibling.
Like I said before, any of the TMNT could physically be the oldest, but logically it would most likely be Leo for obvious reasons.

He has beaten Leo in physical combat at the peak of his anger

Now, when you say this, are you refering to that one time in the Mirage comics in City At War?


None of them is the oldest, but Raphael is definitely not disqualified from it.

Agreed. I'm certainly not saying he couldn't possibly be the oldest, much like Don and Mikey could possibly be the oldest, I'm just saying, Leo is logically and most likely the oldest. ...and Oh, snap! I can't believe I didn't think of this before. Peter Laird himself said Leo is the oldest. Damn! I should have used that a long time ago! :D


As far as alpha male goes, Raphael has recently been passed by, but feels like he can get it back.

Again, just an assumption that Raph had the position from the start.

[XERO]

Destiny chose Leonardo as the unofficial leader, not age.

Personally, I think any of the Turtles could be leader. The outcomes would differ, but it's not impossible.

Anybody can be a leader. It's the responsibility that's difficult to take.

[Weapon X]

Now, when you say this, are you refering to that one time in the Mirage comics in City At War?
Raph took Leo out in issue 19, "Return to New York".

[Ryona]

Raph took Leo out in issue 19, "Return to New York".


Oops! I got the two mixed up! :embarass:




Destiny chose Leonardo as the unofficial leader, not age.

Personally, I think any of the Turtles could be leader. The outcomes would differ, but it's not impossible.

Anybody can be a leader. It's the responsibility that's difficult to take.


While I agree with all this... You guys have to accept that the fact that Leo plays the role of alpha male/big brother does credit him to being the leader among other things.

[Spitfire]

Unless you guys are fans of the old toon I don't see how you don't see what Ryo is trying to say. It's pretty easy to see. Once you all see Season 4 you will totally see what we're trying to say.

[Jester]

I see where she's coming from....I just think it's also a bit one sided....Raph had a chance to lead dog, but that didn't pan out. What's the point of a forum if we all just say "Yep, I totally agree." The discussions are what makes this forum enjoyable.

[XERO]

While I agree with all this... You guys have to accept that the fact that Leo plays the role of alpha male/big brother does credit him to being the leader among other things.

Oh, I accept it. I was just trying to make a point.

Believe me, I accept it. ;)

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Wow....very well written and thought out SLJ....

Hey, thanks!

That's an interesting theory/assumption, but that really is all that is... Just an assumption. We really don't know when and how Leo took the mantle as the alpha male/eldest brother but it's most likely for the most obvious reasons over anything else.

Yeah, definitely, but the point here is that Raphael sees himself as equal to Leonardo-- and perhaps he is indeed equal but very different-- and as such, when his brothers and father side more with Leo, it makes Raph not only jealous, but also he would feel inferior and as though his approach has been ignored or even spit upon, which is never a fun feeling. Whether Raph is older or younger, he still sees himself as an equal partner.

I agree with all this, but you guys seem to think that Raph wants to be incharge. Didn't it accure that he just wants to do things his way?

While he definitely wants to do things his own way, there is probably also the feeling that he gets very little respect, which would add to the bitterness he feels at Leonardo for having a leadership approach that is more widely agreed on by his family.

Like I said to Jester, I don't see any indications of Raph acting as the eldest. This just seems to be more like wishful thinking by certain fans.
I never had a preference between Raph and Leo and never really cared who's older, better, etc. In a fight under normal conditions, Leonardo would win almost every time without too much of a hitch. But Raph does show signs of being an older sibling/ oldest twin who got shafted or neglected.

While that can be the case with a few eldest siblings, it's not very common.

Psychologicly speeking, Leo shows all the traits of the common eldest sibling.
Like I said before, any of the TMNT could physically be the oldest, but logically it would most likely be Leo for obvious reasons.

I dunno about generalizing this type of thing-- after all, there are as many ways to live as there are people in the world. I'm sure there are plenty of older siblings with no emphasis on leadership. In fact, I'll bet there are older siblings with very few connections to their families. I have known actually quite a few younger siblings that provide examples for their older siblings-- not just random cases, either-- and this type of thing could easily cause jealousy. Add to that the turtles are not your average family-- they live an isolated life and have only one parent, for starters.

Now, when you say this, are you refering to that one time in the Mirage comics in City At War?

I think it was Return to New York, but if it happened again in City at War, which I haven't read in a long time, it doesn't really make a difference. The point here was that Raph was angry enough with Leo that he would resort to this much violence. One reason for this could be Leo's tendency to every once in a while claim his word as being the only one, in which case Raph's jealousy-- the kind that results when another sibling comes into the spotlight-- caused him to explode in anger.

Agreed. I'm certainly not saying he couldn't possibly be the oldest, much like Don and Mikey could possibly the oldest, I'mjust saying, Leo is logically and most likely the oldest. ...and Oh, snap! I can't believe I didn't think of this before. Peter Laird himself said Leo is the oldest. Damn! I should have used that a long time ago! :D

Once again, who's actually oldest doesn't really matter in this case, since their mutations are all so close. Twins and triplets don't usually use the minute or so in between births as fodder for lording over one another, just like the oldest is usually more mature and assumes a leadership role.

Again, just an assumption that Raph had the possition from the start.
Not that he actually had it, but that he could have had it at one point. Surely, since you agreed that Raph and Leo are similar in levels of strength and both have their own way of doing things you would also agree that either of them could have had the role at some point in time. Leo did undisputedly get the role, but Raph is obviously bitter about that fragment less of respect he receives.

[Weapon X]

Can I ask a question, ummmm what exactly is the point behind this thread?

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Just a little character analysis, I s'pose. Y'know-- having a little fun getting into the heads of some characters from great American literature!

[Jester]

*nods*
And maybe an attempt by Ryo to force respect for leo that may be lacking in other threads, say the "Favorite TMNT" thread...:P

But I digress....When did Laird say that Leo was in fact the oldest? I'd really like to see this...

[XERO]

This thread is basically for the common Leonardo fan.

You have to respect that. :)

[Weapon X]

This thread is basically for the common Leonardo fan.

You have to respect that. :)
I was one.

[Jester]

Yeah, but he converted to Raphieism....:P

[Weapon X]

I really just thought this was a plot to shove Leo onto people who don't take him as their favorite.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Yeah, but he converted to Raphieism....:P

Maybe it's because of the whole Renaissance painter name thing, but that totally sounds like an art movement. Either that or religious worship of the children's singer.

[Jester]

:P Nice one....

*contimplates how Josh will rue this day*

[Ryona]

Yeah, I agree and understand what you're basicly saying, Space Lieutenant Josh.






Raph had a chance to lead dog, but that didn't pan out.

Since when did he have a chance at leading? Sounds like a made-up tale about something that happened in their childhood years. We can't really count imaginated tales.


What's the point of a forum if we all just say "Yep, I totally agree." The discussions are what makes this forum enjoyable.

I agree. It does make for interesting discussions... though it does get tiring to repeat myself all the time, and trying to make myself as clear as possible, and writing my posts in such a way to make them easy to understand by all...






EDIT: *looks at the new posts above*
Wow, guys... Thanks for taking the thread and topic seriously... :roll: :sweatdro:

[Jester]

Here we go again....with the "It's so simple a child could understand it lines" I do understand, really I do. And I also see where at one point Leo and raph had the chance to helm the fab foursome, Leo's leadership style seems to have taken better, and even Raphie reluctlently falls in line, though at times he is the most vocal voice of oposition to leo's plan. I'm not alone in saying this...but I get the boom droped on me...I may not say it as concisely as josh, but we're on a similar page.

[XERO]

I say 'I agree' because I mean it. Otherwise, I just witness the discussion unless it's something I can relate to.

Don't you agree? ;)

[Jester]

I whole heartedly agree, Benny-V

[Spitfire]

Where is it you base your logic that this thread is to priase Leo. Why would you praise someone who is acting like an asshole? That makes no sense what so ever. And how can you boost someones rep by showing their downfalls? Leo is all the things Ryo has said. We discussed this over MSN. He is better then his brothers, he knows he is, and with that we know he shows off alot. He's the leader and he knows that so he throws his weight around. Raph was never ment to be leader. That was smashed in "Tales Of Leo" Ryo was trying to show you a side of Leo you might not have noticed that's all. Don't mock her for it.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

In the new show, it's definitely stated that Raph and Leo were at one time both vying for the leadership position. If the new show doesn't count as evidence, this rivalry still seems to be the only thing really tearing them apart. After all, they each have their own way of doing things, and Raph's is generally disagreed on by everyone except him. The only place Leo was "officially" the leader was the original toon-- everywhere else he just displays leadership qualities and is unofficial leader, which leaves room for Raph to openly and vocally dispute him, as Jester claims he does. It all goes back to a sibling rivalry they obviously have with each other-- the question as to why is answered by their both speaking out as to their differing opinons on the direction the team should go in. So, yeah, I'll have to go with Jester on this one-- though their fight for leadership is never blatant or explicitly stated in the Mirage comics, it must have existed at one point just because of their still-differing directions.

[Jester]

Thank you for the help my very eloquent friend.

[Ryona]

Where is it you base your logic that this thread is to priase Leo. Why would you praise someone who is acting like an asshole? That makes no sense what so ever. And how can you boost someones rep by showing their downfalls? Leo is all the things Ryo has said. We discussed this over MSN. He is better then his brothers, he knows he is, and with that we know he shows off alot. He's the leader and he knows that so he throws his weight around. Raph was never ment to be leader. That was smashed in "Tales Of Leo" Ryo was trying to show you a side of Leo you might not have noticed that's all. Don't mock her for it.


Thank you, Spitfire.

*sighs* I think this thread has run its course.

Now we're starting to enter the realm of nonsense and spam such as this...

I really just thought this was a plot to shove Leo onto people who don't take him as their favorite.

And maybe an attempt by Ryo to force respect for leo that may be lacking in other threads, say the "Favorite TMNT" thread...

Yeah, but he converted to Raphieism....

Gee, thanks, guys.

What really annoys me is Jester's smug attitude and singing Josh's praises for challanging what I'm saying and agreeing with the things he said and making Raph look good. Obviously Jester is going to side with anyone against me because of personal crap.

Whatever. Nobody likes Leo. Leo is not all that I explain him to be. Leo is just a lousy character who anyone can replace.

There. It's been said.
Now it's time to just get a super mod to lock this thread before it really starts to turn into a pile of crap.

[Jester]

Since when are a couple of asides the end notes for a thread. We're just saying that for all Leo is, Raph is a foil, and that dynamic makes Leo's leadership shine through...that's all....

[XERO]

Don't mock yourself like that, Ryona. Leonardo can never be replaced. He's not lousy at all, either.

"Nobody likes Leo?" That's just your anger talking.

People like Leo. IMO, they envy what his character represents because it's probably been done so much. But nobody hates him, at least not to an certain degree.

I salute you for making this thread. You should just understand that you're not going to get a straight statement about Leonardo. His traits just make him too complex, and it's mostly because of us. :|

I guess that's why he's the leader. Nobody else can handle it like he can.

[Tetsu Deinonychus]

Frankly, I don't like all this "Older-siblings act like this" talk that all the sides have been showing. I know quite a few families with multiple children and most of them DO NOT HAVE an older sibling that torments and picks-on the younger ones. I always assumed that crap was made up for TV.

People are individuals and form their personalities AS individuals, NOT based on their age realitive to siblings.

[Space Lieutenant Josh]

Y'know what, Ryona? This has been a great thread, and has inspired a lot of thoughtful discussion-- way more than most. Not only that, but by reading this, we get to see quite a few different takes on the same character, who I might add is a great, very dynamic character. I don't believe Leo could be replaced by the other turtles and have the team remain the same, either.

It isn't something everyone is going to agree on, but that's what makes it such a great discussion. And I have to say, you definitely made me think about Leo in a different way than I have before, and I'm sure the same thing goes for everyone here. It's all about different perspectives and interpretations.

As far as me making Raph look good, I thought I was just making him look jealous. I was just trying to see things from his point of view.

I think this has been a great thread in terms of inspiring discussions, but it isn't worth having anyone's feelings hurt. People don't always agree on everything, but that's one of the things that makes the world such a diverse place with so many different things to offer. I really did enjoy the thread, Ryona, and having started such a great thread and inspired a very nice 4-page discussion, I don't think there's a reason to be so hard on yourself.

[Jo Dawn]

I'm gonna lock this thread as per request, and to give everyone a chance to calm down a tad. :)

And, to reiterate the age issue... straight from Laird's mouth... the ages go:

Leo
Don
Raph
Mike.

The end, no discussion on that. He's said it mutiple times.


That said, thread locked for now.