New Ep Discussion: "I, Monster"

[Machias Banshee]

Alright, folks, I figured we might as well continue the ep discussion here. :D

-------------------------------------------
Greetings, all! I have returned once again to provide you with entertainment before this week's ep. I had originally planned on revealing my information this week, but due to my computer being a pain, me still recovering from the plague, and being unavailable for the rest of the week, I might have to put it off for a bit. Or not, I dunno yet…

Alrighty then... The boys have been exploring the more abandoned parts of town. Practicing, hell-raising, searching for new furniture for a lair makeover, who knows. As the boys root around the abandoned brickworks, they’re unknowingly going to let one of their enemies know of their return.

Well, wait.. Hun and the PDs know of him. So does Bishop. The Foot and Karai are out of the picture (or ARE they?), so who could it be?

Yes, it has finally come to fruition. The debut of Everyone’s Favori—Second Favorite Villain!

The Rat King

Hide your wives!
Hide your daughters!!
Hide your Cheese!!!

A creature. Part man, part machine, part…rat? It sounds like a cheesy B Movie, but No! Not only is it true, but its also gonna make for GREAT trouble in the future! It is said to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. But what do you do when your enemy Knows how you fight?
With abilities still unknown to the TMNT and the surrounding characters, the Rat King is going to be a new challenge, not to mention threat, to the delicate balance of enemies and allies.


WHO WILL THE MYSTERIOUS CREATURE BE?! (like we don't already know..)
WILL THEY CONSIDER THE TMNT FRIEND OR FOE?!
WHY AM I TYPING LIKE... There we go.

STAY---


WAIT!

Alright, I've decided I might as well share the info that I know, since I won't be here to see the preview for next week, and I don't want it to ruin my chances next time. :P ;)


Alright... Now, we know that the guys have been back from their interspatial ordeal for several months now. Not that anything’s calmed DOWN at all…


Before they’ve even gotten a night’s rest, Casey’s cousin Sid decides to stop by the Farmhouse to find Grampa’s fortune, only to have some scuzzballs follow him there. Northampton has PD! How Quaint!

In the city, they meet up with two winged warriors who are battling it out to gain control of their floating kingdom. (Alright, so it wasn’t about getting free cable, so sue me.) Though I’m pretty sure its not as interesting as the Female wrestling match for control of a intergalactic civilization… :rolleyes:

The Planeteers—I mean, the turtles and their human counterparts discover an elusive dying race of fishpeople in the middle of a massachusetts river. (wait, what’s the Nexus Rematch?)

THEN, back in the city, They meet up with a bigger better Purple Dragons, not to mention have a brawl with one of Bishops critters. The critter also turns out to have been a former friend of Bishop’s, not to mention a local yokel and a former naval officer. (What’s with all the oranges and bellybuttons?

Oh yes, Bishop gets his arse chewed out by President Howard Dean (YEAH!!!!!). :evilgrin:


Now hold on..

Northampton
Northampton
Town
Northampton
Town
And now Town again…


For reasons unknown to us (and the official site?), 4Kids has been showing the episodes out of order. One theory was that 4Kids wanted to show the monster eps together as an October special. Now here’s where the important thing comes up…

Due to the severe jumbling of episodes, there is indeed… and I am positive on this. There is a “Missing” Episode that they have yet to show. I repeat, a “missing” episode.

Now why, you ask, am I making a big deal of this” Not only is this important for the continuity of the show, but it could also answer many of the questions that have been circulating around the forums.
Perhaps this will explain some more of Leo’s shell?
Or his sudden voice changing into that of a 40 year old chain-smoker? Does Splinter Finally talk to Leo about his troubles?
Or are we gonna have to wait to see Leader-boy get smacked upside the head for a later time? :evilgrin:

You know what I always say… ;)


STAY TUNED!!!

[userpjx]

Didn't Karai give Leo that scar? Anyway the battle Nexus rematch that they speak of seems to be next week's episode so we'll see how that unfolds.

As for the Rat King... he certainly didn't dissapoint. Of course it was obvious right from the beginning that he was Bishop's mutant from back in Bishop's Gambit. The new backstory doesn't bother me though. I like how they've tied in several old things into the new continuity.

[The Stryker]

I said it once and i'll say it again...

I really really really really really HATE Rats.....

[zkarlette]

I liked this Ep , I wonder for how long Is Leo gonna be acting up and how are they going to manage on getting rid of this" rat king"...... but Im really looking forward to next week:D

[OA]

Great ep...Rat King is such a badas**...i can't wait for the toy...

While so far all of the eps have great, i hate having this feeling that we're missing something...i really hope they let us in on what's happened b/w seasons...

And for the record, this new Leo is really started to get old and on my nerves..i hope there is a good reason for this

[Jester]

Wonder why the guys, especially Mikey, were all freaked out by the rats, considering their master is a rat..."Any relatives?"

[zkarlette]

Maybe they were afraid cause they were small didnt talk or wore robes:|

[OA]

Wonder why the guys, especially Mikey, were all freaked out by the rats, considering their master is a rat..."Any relatives?"

I think even Splinter in that situation woulda been freaked out... i mean hundreds of rats, with red beady eyes bearing full speed at ya?

[MasterMole]

Did anyone else notice that His name, "Rat King", was not mentioned at all in this episode. So new young fans of this show still don't know what he's become and who he's called. It's almost certain then, there will be at least one more episode about this Rat King, a.k.a. Slayer.

[Jester]

Yeah...the one where he messes with Splinter's head...

[MasterMole]

do you mean an episode where Rat King commands all his rats to hunt down Splinter, or maybe the rats will lead Rat King to him.

[Jester]

No...where Splinter falls into an old Silo in North Hampton and is taunted by the Rat King...

[cormano]

i was pretty disappointed by the episode, actually. they didn't really show anything about the rat king, they all just kinda ran around and fought the whole episode. the last part with rat king talking about being in their nightmares and stuff was cool and makes me look forward to another episode with him with more explanation, but this one on it's own was not very good as far as i'm concerned.

[starry]

I loved this episode! I missed it when it aired so I was pretty excited to watch it on the DVD. The dark setting was really cool, and I like what they did concerning his origin...and I thought the episode being one long fight worked pretty well, 'cause now we see that he's not just a nut that controls rats, he can kick butt too. They made him into a pretty scary dude. o_O

I'm not getting tired of the new Leo though. *big grin*

[Masked Ninja]

i was pretty disappointed by the episode, actually. they didn't really show anything about the rat king, they all just kinda ran around and fought the whole episode. the last part with rat king talking about being in their nightmares and stuff was cool and makes me look forward to another episode with him with more explanation, but this one on it's own was not very good as far as i'm concerned.You have to remember, though, that this is a show that depends on being a multi-episode story. We may very well look back at this one later (as the Rat King is visited in later episodes) and either say this is the best episode ever...or that it sucked. Personally, I like what I'm seeing so far, and this was a great intro. It's better that they're not taking things too fast by dropping the "Rat King" name on him before the TMNT really know who and what he is.

As for dark Leo... every time I see the poor guy I feel bad for him, but this show tends to do a good job with character development. It will be distinctly "old" for me if they finish out the season without him having made some decent progress. As for now, I'm just enjoying the ride.

[cormano]

You have to remember, though, that this is a show that depends on being a multi-episode story. We may very well look back at this one later (as the Rat King is visited in later episodes) and either say this is the best episode ever...or that it sucked. Personally, I like what I'm seeing so far, and this was a great intro. It's better that they're not taking things too fast by dropping the "Rat King" name on him before the TMNT really know who and what he is.

As for dark Leo... every time I see the poor guy I feel bad for him, but this show tends to do a good job with character development. It will be distinctly "old" for me if they finish out the season without him having made some decent progress. As for now, I'm just enjoying the ride.
i can agree with that to an extent. like i said, i definitely hope to see more of him and learn more about him, but they really didn't tell us anything. i wouldn't want them to give away his whole story in one episode, but there could be a bit more than just him laughing meniachely and chasing the turtles.

i still have high hopes for future episodes.

[J Legault]

There'll definatly be another Rat king episode for Season 5 atleast(don't know what will happen in later episodes cause they're not giving out future synosis on any websites.)

I still need to get the recent DVDs since they have some of the Season 4 epsiodes in them.

[longing for leo]

oh thank the damiyo the forum's back on! :D

i know the leo things been talked about a lot, but i can't resist. does anyone else feel a major leo/raph character development ep comming up? cause i do i do! :thyper: i've been really disappointed w/ what the writers have done (or more like not done) w/ raph this season up until this ep. i definitely said "finally!" to the tv when raph was holding don & mikey back, saying leo needed this. although, i thought that leo would get hurt & raph would feel really guilty. meh, i like angst, but leo's got enough anyway. i really do hope he starts talking to some1 (like his bros, not just april) i agree that it's nice to see some character development, but this just doesn't seem like leo. all the qualities (like his voice, compassion/care for his bros, fun/teasing side, etc.) that made him leo are basically gone. i just really miss him (& his voice) & want him back. & i'm also all for raph coming back too. he had a good start in this ep, but he'd better not sink back into the shadows (ha, no pun intended;)). i like what they're doing w/ don & mikey though. it was great to see don as the main turtle in a couple eps, he doesn't get enough of those.

ok, i'm done. (hey, give me a break; it's been like a month! it was so hard to read all you're posts & want to join in & not be able to) i feel better now.

[Fledermaus]

Okay, when I first saw I, Monster, I was blown off my rocker by the wonderful misenscene (heheh... my cinema teacher would kill me for misspelling that) of the episode. However, the Technodrome boards were down and for some reason my brand-new account wasn't working, so forgive me if this post is long--it's several days' worth crammed into one.

This episode was amazing. The animation, pacing, colors, lighting, and overall visual mood in this episode was among the best I have seen of season four (perhaps in the entire series). The dialogue flowed, stayed to the point, and didn't rely on cliches to be witty (and if it did, it was done with subtlety). The action choreography was far more creative and exciting than most live action series I have seen... Wow. So good. This episode really appealed to me, in terms of visuals and timing. Click click click. Everything came together very well. Ah! Did I mention the beautiful palette of colors used? The angle and color of light was actually reminiscent of reality--and very well done, too.

The cutting of Rat King's flashbacks was very quick--something that is done more in action movies or shows, and doesn't seem to work its way into saturday morning serials very often. Why, I don't know. I got to see stills of those flashbacks, thanks to LUCKFF, and even the stills were works of art. Of course, when it comes to animation, what matters most is how the images move together--not just how well they stand alone. Great art (up there with Sons of the Silent Age, IMO).

There is finally weight behind the lines that :D everyone is saying. I love it. I don't notice much generic expression anymore. They have become so realistic, that when they speak, reveal emotion, etc. it's believable. Don (in both script and VA) :D is developing more and more one important aspect of his geek character; he's smart and knows it. At times he is just a tad condescending towards his more philistine brothers when it comes to explaining stuff. (And in a believable way--I know that kind of person; I go to a school with a bunch of "smart" students.) Wayne Grayson... I don't even want to analyze his performance. He IS Mikey. And he's a Mikey who can act very well, too. Raph, I'd say is still the only Turtle who still sounds kinda generic--then again, perhaps the vocal timbre for Raph inhibits the VA from being too expressive. Although I like his tone, Raph's audial performance could use some work in the emotional range area, IMO. However, it's not bad. I guess it'll only get noticeable when everyone else gets really good at delivering their lines. Even so, he's darn good.

The VAs truly understand the characters they are portraying and perform their roles passionately and seriously. You can hear it especially in Leo's anger, and whenever he reveals his immense frustration in the character-revealing vignettes in the new season. (Yes, vignettes are a good thing... it's the only reason why we could feel for any of the characters in The Magnificent Seven.) Generally, I don't get terribly concerned with TV characters--animated or live action. But especially in an animated show, it's amazing how one can relate Leo's troubles. The emotional themes are based off of what actually happens to some people in reality. I myself went through my own period of intense darkness (conicidentally, I was about Leo's age: 15)when, after trying so hard to help someone I cared about overcome a serious problem, that person only retaliated with fierce resentment. I was so frustrated, infuriated that this person would not change even after having seen his options. I couldn't understand why he would continue to keep doing what he was doing and be a compelte dick to anyone who gave a rat's arse about him and tried to support him, and just continue to spew forth his envious hatred of practically everything in existence.

Anyways, I made a series of very stupid decisions. I dwelled on things I knew I should've let go, but I was driven by my sense of "right and wrong." It was so wrong... it was such a big deal, I felt. Night after night, these thoughts of how wrong this guy was was all that filled my mind--that and violent thoughts, thoughts of destroying and revenge. Little did I know at the time, but I was allowing that person to hurt me--even relishing in my own "betrayal."

Needless to say, my personality absolutely changed. I ended up treating those I really cared about with impatience and bitterness--even though I didn't have reason to be mad at them. I became focused, yet at the same time controlled mindlessly at times by my anger. If my enemies weren't aroung, I'd lash out unnecessarily against my family (sound familiar?). I ended up burdening everyone when I initially wanted to help the situation. And for the longest time, I didn't get why I felt so aggressive. Then one day, I realized I had become far worse than the person I was initially trying to help. I had become the essence of what I hated.

That's why I feel so strongly for the character Leo right now. The dark spell is not unlikely to end soon or suddenly. And Leo will not simply "snap" back into place. After seeing the negative effects of his unhealthy, self-tormenting anger, he'll go through a long process of learning to fight the anger that has consumed him. It's going to be hell to beat that monster back into submission, because once this particular mindset takes over, it is bloody hard and slow to fight. Leo's personality will remain grimmer--he won't perceive life with the same purity and wholeness that he did before--although he may relearn how to laugh. Instead of going back to his "old self" he will need to start a new foundation and rebuild his identity.

This, my friends, is a part of growing up. I'm sure Leo and I are not the only ones who have endured this sort of adolescent bitterness (although I suppose it can happen later than adolescence). But if they followed through with this, I would be amazed and this would rank the new TMNT series in my top 5 list.

I really hope they follow through with Leo's problem the right way. This does not involve killing Karai--that will solve nothing in the long run. The longer Leo allows that anger to fester, the harder it'll be to tame. If he wants to survive and REALLY protect his family, he must let go of that deadly rage--it's only going to endanger everyone, as we saw in I, Monster when Leo rashly followed the Rat King to satisfy his need to "defeat" something and get a temporary sense of security. Instead of feeding his anger, Leo should instead be motivated to protect his family out of... don't throw tomatoes at me... love. I'm serious. You may think it's corny if you haven't lived it. I learned the hard way that such indignant anger incited by a sense of betrayal only destroys the self and hurts those you love. Forgive, forget, and move on is the best route in the long run for everyone.

Hoo dang, that was... lengthy. :ohwell: If you have read this far, I applaud your superhuman patience. Please excuse me. I had a lot to say.

TMNT is graduating from the light-hearted class of sat morn kids shows. I'm enjoying it.

And Rat King is baaaad... absolutely insane...

[Ryona]

And for the record, this new Leo is really started to get old and on my nerves..i hope there is a good reason for this

OMFG!! What is wrong with you people!?

Can't let the boy have a little change of direction and some character developement!

Damn it! *walks out of thread*

[Masked Ninja]

Actually Fledermaus... that was quite an enjoyable read ;) Thanks for the insight; I can see where you're coming from on Leo's anger and I agree that this is probably one of the best cartoons on TV. And it has potential to get even better, if the writers handle it right!

Kids' show, my tail. Does anyone think 7-year-olds are fully appreciating what's being offered here?

[Duke]

OMFG!! What is wrong with you people!?

Can't let the boy have a little change of direction and some character developement!

Damn it! *walks out of thread*Leo has and will always be my favorite turtle and I'm really enjoying the direction they are taking him. In some ways I too miss the old Leo but I'm also loving his new attitude. Honestly, I'm a little surprised it took him this long to finally get pissed off. He finally reached his breaking point and now he's not letting anything get in his way.

[The Stryker]

Kids' show, my tail. Does anyone think 7-year-olds are fully appreciating what's being offered here?


Actually...My brother is 7 and he knows all of the crap that is going on in the show. He's a weird child

[syk_skillz]

Anyone know where I can download the episode. I missed it because I went to my Great-Grandmothers funeral Saturday morning and it is the first episode I ever missed of the show and I fell wierd not seeing it.

[Fledermaus]

Actually Fledermaus... that was quite an enjoyable read ;) Thanks for the insight; I can see where you're coming from on Leo's anger and I agree that this is probably one of the best cartoons on TV. And it has potential to get even better, if the writers handle it right!

Thanx, Masked Ninja. Took me a few hours to write that critique/analysis. I've been wanting to make this point about Leo for a long time because I've pretty much experienced what he's going through (minus the katanas and martial arts)--so it means a great deal to me. Alas, I doubt anyone else will read it, NOW, since it's on the first page. So much for my hours of labor...

Kids' show, my tail. Does anyone think 7-year-olds are fully appreciating what's being offered here?

No, they'd rather watch One Piece or Lugi-Oh! Anything that resembles candy due to gratitous color and useless ornaments and no personality is easier for their young minds to handle. Unless they are weird like Stryker's little brother.

[Hunter_Killer]

No worries Fledermaus, I read it, might have to read it again, but I read it. I'd talk more, but my brain decided to freeze up on me. Plus, I'm posting while in school. I doubt my teacher minds, but someone who does might decide to walk in. Can't wait for next episode!

[DrSpengler]

Just watched it on the DVD.

I think this is my new favorite episode. I don't really have anything else to add. Just that the episode was incredible and Dong Woo is the best damn animation studio in the whole wide world.

[longing for leo]

Took me a few hours to write that critique/analysis. I've been wanting to make this point about Leo for a long time because I've pretty much experienced what he's going through (minus the katanas and martial arts)--so it means a great deal to me. Alas, I doubt anyone else will read it, NOW, since it's on the first page. So much for my hours of labor...
no worries Fledermaus, i'll just quote most of it...
The VAs truly understand the characters they are portraying and perform their roles passionately and seriously. You can hear it especially in Leo's anger, and whenever he reveals his immense frustration in the character-revealing vignettes in the new season.
yeah, i know they've got a really good reason for leo's voice change, i just wish they would start delving into it. you gave a really good analysis based on personal experience though. that's helped me to understand what's going on with leo.
it's amazing how one can relate Leo's troubles. The emotional themes are based off of what actually happens to some people in reality. I myself went through my own period of intense darkness (conicidentally, I was about Leo's age: 15)when, after trying so hard to help someone I cared about overcome a serious problem, that person only retaliated with fierce resentment. I was driven by my sense of "right and wrong." It was so wrong... it was such a big deal, I felt. Night after night, these thoughts of how wrong this guy was was all that filled my mind--that and violent thoughts, thoughts of destroying and revenge.Needless to say, my personality absolutely changed. I ended up treating those I really cared about with impatience and bitterness--even though I didn't have reason to be mad at them. I became focused, yet at the same time controlled mindlessly at times by my anger. If my enemies weren't aroung, I'd lash out unnecessarily against my family (sound familiar?). I ended up burdening everyone when I initially wanted to help the situation. And for the longest time, I didn't get why I felt so aggressive. Then one day, I realized I had become far worse than the person I was initially trying to help. I had become the essence of what I hated.

That's why I feel so strongly for the character Leo right now. The dark spell is not unlikely to end soon or suddenly. And Leo will not simply "snap" back into place. After seeing the negative effects of his unhealthy, self-tormenting anger, he'll go through a long process of learning to fight the anger that has consumed him. It's going to be hell to beat that monster back into submission, because once this particular mindset takes over, it is bloody hard and slow to fight. Leo's personality will remain grimmer--he won't perceive life with the same purity and wholeness that he did before--although he may relearn how to laugh. Instead of going back to his "old self" he will need to start a new foundation and rebuild his identity.This, my friends, is a part of growing up. I'm sure Leo and I are not the only ones who have endured this sort of adolescent bitterness

I really hope they follow through with Leo's problem the right way. This does not involve killing Karai--that will solve nothing in the long run. The longer Leo allows that anger to fester, the harder it'll be to tame. If he wants to survive and REALLY protect his family, he must let go of that deadly rage--it's only going to endanger everyone, as we saw in I, Monster when Leo rashly followed the Rat King to satisfy his need to "defeat" something and get a temporary sense of security. Instead of feeding his anger, Leo should instead be motivated to protect his family out of... don't throw tomatoes at me... love. I'm serious. You may think it's corny if you haven't lived it. I learned the hard way that such indignant anger incited by a sense of betrayal only destroys the self and hurts those you love. Forgive, forget, and move on is the best route in the long run for everyone.
no tomatoes thrown, i bet most of us want to see leo heal through the love of & for his family. that's exactly what i want to see, atleast. & i agree that even thought i might wish that leo wasn't hurt, the fact remains that he was & so he's not going to heal over night. mostly i miss the way he used to be because he was happy then & i hate to see him so down. like you showed, it happens; that's life, but that doesn't mean i can't still feel really bad/sad for him. i too hope that he doesn't go back to the way he was over night, & that the writers don't do anything so unrealistic as to have him be exactly the same. but i do hope that his family, & leo himself, gets him on the path to healing soon. i like angst, but i want to at least have them start exploring the problem.
incidentally, there seems to be a 3 way split in beliefs as to what caused the hurt: the fact that he made the decision to blow up his bros, karai stabbed him, or both/more. personally i think it's both, leaning towards the almost killing his family, but it's got to be more than what he told april. what do you guys think?

[Machias Banshee]

OMFG!! What is wrong with you people!?

Can't let the boy have a little change of direction and some character developement!

Damn it! *walks out of thread*

You have to keep in mind that people aren't always receptive to change. Just like when people used to original series sarcastic Raph saw the newer hard-edged Raphael. It takes time for them to adapt.

You just have to be patient... ;)

[LUCKFF]

Previously Posted In Technodrom Gd:

Ok So I Saw This Episode When It Came Out On The Dvd, Ive Been Dieing To Talk About It. I Love To See The Turtles Get Their Ass Kicked And Now Its Been Twice That The Slayer/ratking Kicks Their Ass.

1st Off, I Didnt Like The Constant Laughing Of The Ratking And Could Not Stand The Cgi Rats (although I Understand Why They Had To). Everything Else Was Phenominal. The Changes They Made From The Comic To The Toon Were Good. I Enjoyed That Little Matrix Like Jump The Ratking Did Off The Roof, That Scene Was Shot Well. Was Leo Killing Some Rats? At 1st It Looked Like It But Then He Mentioned Fending Them Off. The Episode Really Took Off When Leo Faced Off Against The Ratking One On One. Raph Showed That He Understood How Leo Has Been Feeling, By Holding His Bro Back To Allow Leo To Blow Steam. The Flash Back Scenes Were Cool, Especially When Leo Was Trying To Get A Fight Out Of Him. Over All This Is An Episode To Be Watched 10 Times, Im Already At 5 (what With Showing It To All My Friends And To My Girlfriend).

So Mikey Mentions The Battle Nexus Again. Hmmm? I Think This Episode Is Out Of Order Too. Looks Like This Is Suposed To Follow Next Weeks "grudge Match" (battle Nexus Rematch). Mikey Stated That He Was Champion. He Hasnt Said This In A While Which Leads Me To Believe That This Means He Won His Battle Nexus Rematch And Is Now Offcially The Nexus Champoin. Some Ask Why Is This Rematch Happening After So Long? Could It Be That This Mess Needs To Be Cleaned Up Before The Nexus Tournament Begins Again?

[R-iZZy]

All I have to say is: it's about damn time! The Turtles have finally been introduced to the Rat King! It's a shame he didn't officially nickname himself as The Rat King, but rather The Monster, but Laird knew where he was going with this character, obviously. And I like the twist to Rat King's past, being one of Bishop's experiments with a lost memory. Even though this show has roots going back to the original comics, it's cool to see how they can take the same idea and make it a totally different one, and still pull it off nicely.

And Mikey definitely stood out, in this episode, with his cornball humor in so many different situations. His "3 Stooges" impersonation while running aimlessly like a headless chicken, just had me laughing. And his laughter while running, I don't know what to say about this guy.... he's a very, very..... VERY peculiar one. Sometimes, I blame Raph for Mikey's foolish antics. That many blows to the head must've done something to him.

And not only did Mikey show humor, even Casey had his moments! At first, I thought Casey was going back to his bumbling idiot self after tripping over the fence and landing a faceplant after, attempting to hop the fence as his reptilian pals did; but I saw that was a set-up for something later to come with great comic value. LOL! Good to see Casey learn his lesson by going under the fence rather than over it! I laughed!

As for the action? WOW! Rat King is incredibly agile! And he is just insane with his moves. I'm amazed the Turtles didn't connect his style of fighting to the Bishop clone, at first glance. Anyway, looking at Leo pretty much bully the hell out of Rat King was kind of depressing. But hey, the new Leo isn't thinking of honor anymore. It's fight or die... and Leo only had one option in mind! Though he was a bully to Rat King, I can't understand why he dodged and saved Rat King when the tower collapsed unto the building, maybe that old Leo is still within him.

And wow, Raph is really showing his maturity. He actually WANTS Leo to handle his own business. Raph would rather let Leo blow off steam rather than beat the hell out of someone for his enjoyment, Raph really is changing!

As for Don, aw, he didn't really shine in this episode. Maybe next week? *recalls preview for next week's episode* Okay, scratch that.

[Mr. Stay Puft]

In all honesty, I like the new Leo. Up until now, I always hated Leo because he seemed to lack a personality. He was a leader and a perfectionist, and not much more. Now we're actually getting inside his head and seeing what makes him tick. Honestly, Leo doesn't seem as lame as he was for the prior 18 years that I've been a turtle fan.

[Fledermaus]

Just watched it on the DVD.

I think this is my new favorite episode. I don't really have anything else to add. Just that the episode was incredible and Dong Woo is the best damn animation studio in the whole wide world.[QUOTE]

You think so too? I, Monster has also, for many reasons, become my favorite episode. Dong Woo is capable of such beautiful animation. You should see the TMNT episode "Bad Day" which is on the Shredder's Final Countdown DVD. Also, I got to see clips of their short film "Africa" which I think was done with the same technology they use to animate TMNT--except that the Dong Woo animators got to put in way more time for this artistic piece. These guys are capable of breathtakingly gorgeous animation. I wouldn't mind there being a 2d animation in the style of the show if Dong Woo could animate it as well as they have their best pieces. Now, all that's missing in korean animation is management that actually cares about the animation and story processes and not just the moolah form the box office. :roll:

[QUOTE=longing for leo]no worries Fledermaus, i'll just quote most of it...

yeah, i know they've got a really good reason for leo's voice change, i just wish they would start delving into it. you gave a really good analysis based on personal experience though. that's helped me to understand what's going on with leo.

Wow, uh, thanks. :) That's a lotta quoting. I do hope it will give some people a little insight to why Leo's acting the way he's acting.

no tomatoes thrown, i bet most of us want to see leo heal through the love of & for his family. that's exactly what i want to see, atleast. & i agree that even thought i might wish that leo wasn't hurt, the fact remains that he was & so he's not going to heal over night. mostly i miss the way he used to be because he was happy then & i hate to see him so down. like you showed, it happens; that's life, but that doesn't mean i can't still feel really bad/sad for him. i too hope that he doesn't go back to the way he was over night, & that the writers don't do anything so unrealistic as to have him be exactly the same. but i do hope that his family, & leo himself, gets him on the path to healing soon. i like angst, but i want to at least have them start exploring the problem.
incidentally, there seems to be a 3 way split in beliefs as to what caused the hurt: the fact that he made the decision to blow up his bros, karai stabbed him, or both/more. personally i think it's both, leaning towards the almost killing his family, but it's got to be more than what he told april. what do you guys think?

We discussed something along these lines today in my literature class. We were reading a play about a girl whose uncle was... Basically, when she grows up, she ends up doing to younger boys what her uncle did to her. At first glance it doesn't make sense; if someone was molested, why would that person go around and do the same thing to others? One of the thoughts thrown out made sense--at least it got me thinking. It was that sometimes, if someone is defeated in the worst possible way, a part of him or her will always be paranoid of things--no longer trust people. At the same time, the feeling of being conquered or defeated weighs heavily, and a person might even find himself desperate to even the odds. To stop being the conquered and become the conqueror.

Anyways, not that Leo was sexually abused, but the same basic concept exists: he was conquered by someone else--numerous times, even. The first major blow was when he got beaten to a pulp by the Shredder. The second time Leo was conquered brought him crashing because he was attached to some degree to the person who hurt him. And now he is doing all he can to reverse his role in the game--so that he will be the defeater. That is why, it seems, every episode he has become so bloodthirsty. He wants to fight because he wants to conquer. It's actually a sick motive, and if Leo continues to follow this path, he will turn out to be just like the Shredder--who also derived his pleasure primarily from the conquering of others.

It's a sad irony--that a character such as Leo, who had a good heart--is as susceptible to evil as anyone. I remember how I felt that I was so noble and good. Even though I knew that everyone is capable of falling, I couldn't imagine myself turning bad. Heheh. I wonder if perhaps that's why fate allowed me to be so consumed by hatred. I wonder if that's why Leo is going through this. To him, the line between honor and evil is firmly established. Going through this experience will show him that perhaps those who seem more virtuous aren't necessarily "more worthy" than the unvirtuous.

I know the turtles might be considered Buddhist, so they might believe that some people have more bad karma than others. "The Bad Guys" are of lower, dishonorable caste, and are therefore more susceptible to evil than the noble warriors. But in my experience, I have learned that everyone can fall--it doesn't matter how good you think you are. We are all susceptible to evil. It's dangerous to think that one is exempt from this. I don't believe in enlightenment, in reaching perfection during life, because life isn't perfect and we are imperfect beings. Of course, this seems to be what Leo has been trying to reach for a long time. In everything he does, he tries to be perfect. Why? Because he wants to feel worthy. (He's alluded to it many times--every time he mourns that he hasn't done enough to protect his family is a clear depiction of this.) Yet, I feel that, if the writers have actually based this off of their experiences, Leo might come to the shocking realization: that he is in fact no nobler than Karai.

*braces for the tomatoes*

[Machias Banshee]

Now THIS is the kinda discussions I like seeing.. :D

*takes tomatoes and makes marinara for mozzarella sticks*

[Masked Ninja]

*steals one of the mozzarella sticks*

Ahh the character development. I love it. I love overanalyzing it. And as much as I love how they're messing with Leo, I do hope the change isn't permanent. A snap back to normal would be jarring... I just can't wait to see how they do it! *fidgets with glee*

[Ryona]

OMG!!! Fledermaus, you ****ing rock!!

That is one of the most deepest and most intelligent things on Leo I have ever read! :o

[Machias Banshee]

:lol:

Well, since one, we've only had this thread open a short while, and two I like this discussion, I'm going to leave this thread open til Midnight EST. I'm also going to post the new teaser, just to get some juices flowing about tomorrow's ep. :evilgrin:

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

In all honesty, I like the new Leo. Up until now, I always hated Leo because he seemed to lack a personality. He was a leader and a perfectionist, and not much more. Now we're actually getting inside his head and seeing what makes him tick. Honestly, Leo doesn't seem as lame as he was for the prior 18 years that I've been a turtle fan.

I kinda like calmer Leo, but I'm really digging his new "kill or be betrayed" persona.

[XERO]

Fled, thank you for finally making the problem about Leonardo's rage much more simple to identify with. You said the same thing I would've loved to say, but with more impact. Kudos to you. I bet Ryona's in love with you now.;)

The first major blow was when he got beaten to a pulp by the Shredder. The second time Leo was conquered brought him crashing because he was attached to some degree to the person who hurt him. And now he is doing all he can to reverse his role in the game--so that he will be the defeater. That is why, it seems, every episode he has become so bloodthirsty. He wants to fight because he wants to conquer. It's actually a sick motive, and if Leo continues to follow this path, he will turn out to be just like the Shredder--who also derived his pleasure primarily from the conquering of others.

One of the most interesting posts I've ever read. Mostly due to the fact it's all true. If Leonardo doesn't regain his focus soon, his full focus, the season finale will possibly be traumatizing to say the least.

It's a sad irony--that a character such as Leo, who had a good heart--is as susceptible to evil as anyone. I remember how I felt that I was so noble and good. Even though I knew that everyone is capable of falling, I couldn't imagine myself turning bad. Heheh. I wonder if perhaps that's why fate allowed me to be so consumed by hatred. I wonder if that's why Leo is going through this. To him, the line between honor and evil is firmly established. Going through this experience will show him that perhaps those who seem more virtuous aren't necessarily "more worthy" than the unvirtuous.

Hey, no one is immune to the aspects of self-judgement. Like you said, anyone can succumb to their rage and become blinded by evil. But, what they don't always know is that they can always let go of their anger and just forgive, which is insanely difficult.

Of course, this seems to be what Leo has been trying to reach for a long time. In everything he does, he tries to be perfect. Why? Because he wants to feel worthy. (He's alluded to it many times--every time he mourns that he hasn't done enough to protect his family is a clear depiction of this.) Yet, I feel that, if the writers have actually based this off of their experiences, Leo might come to the shocking realization: that he is in fact no nobler than Karai.

Sometimes, I wish Leonardo was more like me. He just can't accept imperfection, like I do. In fact, in Benvenuto Quickie #14, I tried to make Leo understand that nobody's perfect, and he gets upset over it. But it's the truth. I know I'm not perfect, and I never will be.

But, I can always be better...;)

[Katie]

*steals one of the mozzarella sticks*

Ahh the character development. I love it. I love overanalyzing it. And as much as I love how they're messing with Leo, I do hope the change isn't permanent. A snap back to normal would be jarring... I just can't wait to see how they do it! *fidgets with glee*


According to one of the storyboard guys for the show that I sometimes get to talk to, this is all leading up to a story arc for Leo....though that is all the hints I have been able to schmooze from the guy...

[Fledermaus]

:) I'm glad that my notions have made such engaging food for thought. I never realized the culinary potential of this vegetable until now. *chomps on a marinara/mozerella stick for the first time ever in life* If life pelts you with tomatoes, make marinara sauce. Brilliant.:D

EDIT:

Just out of curiousity, why do these threads get closed after only a week? At the Hype forums, they stay open indefinitely, and gradually just fade away in time. Depending on how good the episode is, people sometimes have more to say and want to talk about it longer. Not that I in particular have much more to say about this episode, (I copied my post on page one of this thread to a word document; it was over two pages long) but sometimes, when an episode is really good, wouldn't people want to talk about it longer? You can tell when the thread is worth closing when people haven't posted for over a week. The "rush" stage of posts can last anywhere from a few days to several weeks, like the thread for Same As It Never Was at the Hype Boards was hugely popular for an entire month, it seemed.

Perhaps you are a strange and exotic people at the Technodrome forums. I am new to your culture but am eager to learn (and partake of your exquisite marinara).

[XERO]

Strange is good, and sometimes necessary. ;)

[Machias Banshee]

Well, to answer your question, Fledermaus, the problem here is threads don't die on their own, they get spammed to death. Extremely spammy if its open for more than a week. We don't get into as deep conservation as we've done with this thread (which I am very grateful for. Being a writing major, I just soak this kinda stuff up :D ), plus people usually take what they've disocvered, and take the newest ep to add onto it. Comprehensive kinda discussion-making...

*shares some Marinara and mozzarella sticks*

Oh! YOu probly haven' gotten your Mango of Welcome! That's a BIG tradition here :D

*gives Fleder a :mango: of Welcome*