Best fighter of th Turtles?

[trexmaster]

I';; vote for Michelangelo, as his nunchaku are the most versatile of the TMNT weapons, being useful for defense (repelling attacks) AND offense (seriously, wooden rods spinning fast against your cheek would deliver SERIOUS discipline). Also, he's the fastest of the Turtles, and ninja need speed.

The worst (be warned, the following will be politically incorrect) is most likely either Donatello or Raphael. Donatello's weapon, though versatile, isn't particularly powerful. And although Raphael can stab with his sais, he's too stupid, like a brawling animal, to be an effective fighter.

[Sewer Bull]

Leonardo is considered to be the best fighter of them all. I think he's the most skilled and best trained one.
Yet I think Michelangelo is the most talented fighter - he won Big Brawl, for God's sake! Plus, in OS, he showed that he's able to even knock Leo over, when given a proper incentive (that means pizza).

[Blondus]

I vote for Michael.

I think trexmaster has elaborated that for me.

Though i do not agree on your statements regarding Dons bo staff. a wooden staff like that can deliver a great amount of damage.. the speed the tip of the bo staff is traveling in is very high, just as fast or even faster than mikeys nunchakos. Plus the bo staff wont bounce back as the nunchakos would. Believe me, being hit with a staff like that sends you to the ground in no time. Dont ask me how i know.

[GK Punk]

...I really tried to resist this time. But I can't.

Rob Van Dam is the best fighter.

[Rhane]

I think Leo is the "best" fighter at the moment. Mikey is really talented though and if he focused more he could beat leo.

[Ryona]

Ok, first off, it's not about the weapon, it's about the fighter. Either way, Leo has the most leathal weapon.

Second, Leo is obviously the best fighter, always has been and will most likely always will be because of his commitment, discipline, and drive to be the best.

It's true that Mikey is the most agile, but Leo is right behind Mikey in that category, plus, Leo is also very cunning, an excellent strategist and tacticion, and has a natural affinity for warfare and such.

[MyNameSlash]

I vote Leonardo. He's the most disciplined and most focused.

[Weapon X]

Well, come on It's obviously Leo for reasons already expressed, he has the most commitment, discipline, and drive to be the best there is.

[Jester]

I concur....haven't you watched The Shredder Strikes? They we're all saying their weapon was the best, to which Splinter told them, "It is not the weapon that is important, but the arm that weilds it." I voted Leo because he's the most dedicated to the art and most willing to improve. Mikey won't practice, thinks there is no room for improvement.

[Ryona]

The boys are all the best at their own thing. When it comes to combat, Leo is the best. It's as simple as that.

Honestly, to pick any of the others as the best fighter is just a biased attitude of favoritism rather than going by facts which have been presented to us for over 20 years.


Now, I love Mikey, and no offense to Mikey fans, but I just don't get why he got any votes. Yes, he's the most agile, but it takes a Hell of alot more than being quick on your feet to be a superb fighter. Leo is superb in all aspects of fighting. He's a natural fighter where as Mikey is simply a natural athlete.


EDIT: Oh, I see Raph got a vote as well. *shakes her head* See, this is why these types of polls are pointless. The choice is obvious yet people will go against facts and just choose their favorite turtle.

Next we're going to have a "Who's the best electronics technician" poll and some how there will be votes for Leo, Raph, and Mikey.

:roll:

[Jester]

If the others were as dedicated as Leo...they'd be unstopable. They'd still have therr individual styles, but if they were all as focused and willing to better themselves, they'd be a "4 turtle wrecking crew."

[Benetello]

very true ryona but I think their all great fighters in their own way. I think the only time way raph is a good fighter is when he is mad or upset.

[Ryona]

I agree, but fortunatly, they're not all going to be excellent at the same feild of interest. I like it like that because it makes each of them more unique that way.

Leo is the best fighter.

Donnie is the best electrical, scientific, and computer technician.

Raph is the best motorcycle driver (and most wittiest in the original series)

Mikey is the best athlete and comic.



I think the only time way raph is a good fighter is when he is mad or upset.

I disagree. He gets way to sloppy when he get's mad. He's much more dangerous and more effective as a fighter when he has a cool head.

Infact, in season four, Raph is much more stable and cool under fire, and it shows in combat situations. He's finally becoming a greater fighter than he was before, which is really good since he's been the most static with his progress from the rest of the boys.

[Jester]

If Raphie could keep his head, he might have a chance.
I see it this way:
Leo's best all around
Donnie's the most improvizational, can make things up on the fly'
Mikey's the most swift and agile
Raphie's the (Physically) strongest (and he relies on brute strength as opposed to tequnique, which make for his lose of control and defeat)

[Sewer Bull]

Next we're going to have a "Who's the best electronics technician" poll and some how there will be votes for Leo, Raph, and Mikey.


I wish there was a "Who's the best lover" poll. Sadly, no chances for that.:dead:

[Ryona]

Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong. If Raph can really focus and keep cool, and with a little more disciplin, he can get as good as Leo. Infact, all the boys can be as good as Leo if they really aply their efforts to the level that Leo does. Though Leo has that heart of a warrior. Like I said, it's in him. It's his passion.

[Jester]

Agreed....now who's gonna make the "Best at wearing an Orange bandana?" Poll...:P

[Anarky]

Donatello's weapon, though versatile, isn't particularly powerful.
Now here's something to try at home. Get a broom (I know you all have one) and then go out in the garden. Hold the stick on one end so that the brush is closest to your hands. Then you swing that DIY-Bo and let it hit the lawn. Then look at what you've made... a friggin hole in the ground! And if you consider two to three tons of pressure concentrated on one point tbo be not "particulary powerful", then I wonder what "particulary powerful" is.

Allthough there is situations where a bo is more or less useless. In narrow spaces for example.

It's true that Mikey is the most agile, but Leo is right behind Mikey in that category, plus, Leo is also very cunning, an excellent strategist and tacticion, and has a natural affinity for warfare and such.
Ehm... I dunno. Looking at the way the TMNT were brought up, I see that they were all taught the same thing, aside from weapons training (isn't that really obvious?). So the main reason is, why my vote goes to Leo too is that he's the one to actually use that training, being focused and not thinking of anything else. The others are all haven't really managed to get over their own selves.

Let's look at Mikey. He would probably be on a level with Leo, but (and that's a really big but) he's goofing around. So instead of focussing on a fight, he thinks of a witty thing to say or a funny move to do. His mind is not in the fight. It needs a really good reason for him to actually concentrate, to actually put his mind into the fight. His self pushes through.

If we look at Raph, we see that he lacks control over his anger (his self). He has enormous amounts of strength, but he forgets all the training when he's all "Grrahhh!".

Donnie is just a more peaceful nature, I see him not as a fighter like the others. Sure the others are more or less fighters, but Donnie isn't. He knows everything the others know as well, but he uses it completely different. Whereas Leo goes for the kill (as seen on numerous occasions), he even hesitates to injure. That's probably his weakest point.

To me, it's not about the weapon or the arm, it's about the mind.

The boys are all the best at their own thing. When it comes to combat, Leo is the best. It's as simple as that.

Honestly, to pick any of the others as the best fighter is just a biased attitude of favoritism rather than going by facts which have been presented to us for over 20 years.


I think we got it. Thank you.

[Jester]

Ehm... I dunno. Looking at the way the TMNT were brought up, I see that they were all taught the same thing, aside from weapons training (isn't that really obvious?). So the main reason is, why my vote goes to Leo too is that he's the one to actually use that training, being focused and not thinking of anything else. The others are all haven't really managed to get over their own selves.

Let's look at Mikey. He would probably be on a level with Leo, but (and that's a really big but) he's goofing around. So instead of focussing on a fight, he thinks of a witty thing to say or a funny move to do. His mind is not in the fight. It needs a really good reason for him to actually concentrate, to actually put his mind into the fight. His self pushes through.

If we look at Raph, we see that he lacks control over his anger (his self). He has enormous amounts of strength, but he forgets all the training when he's all "Grrahhh!".

Donnie is just a more peaceful nature, I see him not as a fighter like the others. Sure the others are more or less fighters, but Donnie isn't. He knows everything the others know as well, but he uses it completely different. Whereas Leo goes for the kill (as seen on numerous occasions), he even hesitates to injure. That's probably his weakest point.

To me, it's not about the weapon or the arm, it's about the mind.


Well said Anarky. It's all about the Nninja who posseses the arm that weilds the weapon.

[Ryona]

I think we got it. Thank you.

Sorry :tanime:

I just get flustered when people make choices that are contradictory to facts. It's the common sense part of me that goes nuts. :lol:


But anyway, seeing as Raph and Mikey got voted, I want to see Donnie get voted too. What the hell, right? We might as well have all of them with at least one vote. :lol:

[Masked Ninja]

Leo, hands down. He's the one who cares and trains the most. When you make something your hobby, you work at it constantly because it's enjoyable. That's what Leo's done, and it shows.

Though in all seriousness, I think if Mikey buckled down, got serious, and trained as hard as Leo, he'd eventually surpass him. He just has more natural talent, speed, and agility. Thing is, he probably never will because comic books and life in general are more important to him than ninjutsu. But I think about how kickawesome Mikey was in SAINW (with one arm, no less!) and that would be an example where he would be forced to get serious. His final fight was wonderful to watch.

Don is probably the least skilled right now because he concentrates on his gadgets. Which is perfectly fine, because they've saved the guys' lives on many occasions. He contributes his share, it's just not all on the battlefield.

Raph gets sloppy when he gets ticked... may I present Big Brawl pt. 3 as Exhibit A. But Ryona's right - he's a lot cooler and more collected nowadays, and therefore probably better in battle. I would say he probably has the most raw strength of the Turtles.

[trexmaster]

Ok, first off, it's not about the weapon, it's about the fighter. Either way, Leo has the most leathal weapon.

I dunno, nunchaku strike me as being extremely lethal. I suspect that they could crack your skull.

Second, Leo is obviously the best fighter, always has been and will most likely always will be because of his commitment, discipline, and drive to be the best.

And Michelangelo has superior agility, superior creativity, greater intuition, and superior open-mindedness (which is important in ninjutsu, a "soft" art). That is more important in my opinion than "discipline".

[Ryona]

lol. I guess you're really trying to sell your choice here.

Yes, Mikey has superior agility, but Leo is not far behind in that category. Superior creativity? In what way? Are you saying that Mikey is the most resorseful in combat? If that's the case, I would have to give that one to Donnie. Greater intuition? I don't believe Mikey has shown much intuition, especially in the battle feild. It's always Leo who's the one who really is able to feel how events are going to unfold. It's one of the things that makes him a geat choice as leader. Though one can argue that his intuition with Karai was way off. :lol:
Or maybe it wasn't. We still have yet to see where Karai's final fate lies.
I can agree that Mikey is very open-minded, but Leo is very open-minded as well. I mean, he was willing to cooperate and work with Saki when they first met, and Leo has countlessly looked past Karai's "vile" exterior and believes that she can truly side with them with some persuation. If that's not open-mindedness, I don't know what is.

And believe me, coming from a person who's done a few years of martial arts, dicipline and dedication is crucial to really excel in the martial arts. I've seen too many students with talent who never took their training seriously, and because of it, they were advancing through the levels by a crawl. The other students who may not be as physicaly gifted but take their training seriously always moved up the ranks quickly and are really tough to beat in sparring matches.
Why do you think Splinter can defeat the TMNT even though they're much more physicaly gifted than he is? It's all about dicipline, dedication, and having the right frame of mind.


Don't think I'm puting down Mikey and saying he's not a great fighter. I love Mikey, and I know Mikey is an amazing fighter. But the truth of it is Leo is better. It's that simple.
I don't blame you for sticking up for your favorite one, but facts can't be ignored.

I think the key thing to remember is, while Ninjutsu is viewed more as a chore to Don, Raph, and Mikey, to Leo, it's viewed as a hobby. People always excel in their chosen hobbies.

[GK Punk]

Next we're going to have a "Who's the best electronics technician" poll and some how there will be votes for Leo, Raph, and Mikey.

I sure as hell wouldn't vote for those three in that poll.



I'd vote for Rob Van Dam.

[Ryona]

I sure as hell wouldn't vote for those three in that poll.



I'd vote for Rob Van Dam.


:lol:

Is there anything he can't do? :D

[GK Punk]

:lol:

He can do EVERYTHING! :)

[Serp]

:lol:

He can do EVERYTHING! :)

But can he see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
:ohwell:

[GK Punk]

he IS why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch :o

[Weapon X]

Really? Well now I feel weird.

[Serp]

I have to agree with the majority and say Leo. He has proven that he is the most talented turtle when it comes to the art of fighting. With Leo his ninja training is his first priority.

[Buslady]

I'm biased...I don't hafta say who I voted.

Right now it seems that my bad boy is a better fighter with Leo going bonkers with his little failure issue.

I wish there was a "Who's the best lover" poll. Sadly, no chances for that.

Oh I'm soooooo tempted to post one

[Buslady]

The worst (be warned, the following will be politically incorrect) is most likely either Donatello or Raphael. Donatello's weapon, though versatile, isn't particularly powerful. And although Raphael can stab with his sais, he's too stupid, like a brawling animal, to be an effective fighter.

Are you saying that Raph is a thoughtless, brutal animal? :x Raph's actually not a horrible fighter at all, he isn't the quickest and has a short temper but he is the strongest physically...he just isn't into the perfection, grace and discipline required of the arts; he gets the job done any way he sees fit. If he obsessed himself like Leo is, he could be just as or more effective than Leo...it's just not his thing to do all that.

[Ryona]

I agree with practicly everything Buslady said. Sure Raph is too rash and too unstable to be at the level of Leo and Mikey, but he's certainly not stupid. Infact, ironicly, as Leo get's more outta wack in season four, Raph seems to mellow out, cool down, and mature more and more. Raph is certainly becoming quite the fighter now.
Though Leo is still an amazing fighter when he's all super focused and intence with his "in your face" attitude. I would say that he's infact even better when he's in that state.
And I don't see Donnie as so hopeless either. Sure he's not as athletic as his brothers, but he sure as Hell makes up for it with his intellect. Fighting is not just about the body, it's about the mind too as well as the spirit.

And believe me, the bo is very powerful. It's also very handy and it has the superior reach.

[Blondus]

And I don't see Donnie as so hopeless either. Sure he's not as athletic as his brothers, but he sure as Hell makes up for it with his intellect. Fighting is not just about the body, it's about the mind too as well as the spirit.

And believe me, the bo is very powerful. It's also very handy and it has the superior reach.

ditto.

The bo staff is actually one of the most practical of the four turtles' weapons. It has long range, can easily be handled as for fighting off people at both sides of you, it reaches extreme speed when swung (thus hitting you with friggin uncomprehedable force (you are actually thrown off your feet)), and, it is the best weapon for blocking front attacks (by placing the one end of the bo in the ground just in front of you, and using that spot in the ground as a base, moving the other end of the stick any way you wish (this blocks one entire side of the body, instead of just i.e. upper right, lower left...)).

[trexmaster]

And believe me, coming from a person who's done a few years of martial arts, dicipline and dedication is crucial to really excel in the martial arts. I've seen too many students with talent who never took their training seriously, and because of it, they were advancing through the levels by a crawl. The other students who may not be as physicaly gifted but take their training seriously always moved up the ranks quickly and are really tough to beat in sparring matches.

Why do you think Splinter can defeat the TMNT even though they're much more physicaly gifted than he is? It's all about dicipline, dedication, and having the right frame of mind.

I'm sorry, but we're talking about ninjutsu, not kung-fu or karate. In ninjutsu, a genuine appreciation of the art is the most important, not the ability to obey robotic commands and orders. Michelangelo is the only turtle with a genuine love of ninjutsu, so he's the most open-minded. Leo trains only to please Splinter, Raphael trains only because he loves violence, and Donatello doesn't even care that much.

That said, Leo is probably second to Mike, which I think is pretty good. Don't think I'm trashing Leo.

Raph's actually not a horrible fighter at all, he isn't the quickest and has a short temper but he is the strongest physically

That only goes so far. A truly skilled fighter is dextrous, graceful, precise, and clever, and Raphael has less of these attributes compared to the others.

[Anarky]

I'm sorry, but we're talking about ninjutsu, not kung-fu or karate. In ninjutsu, a genuine appreciation of the art is the most important, not the ability to obey robotic commands and orders. Michelangelo is the only turtle with a genuine love of ninjutsu, so he's the most open-minded. Leo trains only to please Splinter, Raphael trains only because he loves violence, and Donatello doesn't even care that much.

Now, that part could upset many fans of the TMNT. You're basically calling Leo a teacher's pet, Raph a violent moron and Donnie uninterested.

Has it ever crossed your mind, that Leo trains because he sees the necessity of these skills in his life. I mean, being a mutated turtle in a world full of people who will most likely want to kill you to see what made you tick probably isn't the easiest thing to do. The way I see it (Ryona, please correct me if I'm being stupid), Leo trains because he sees that his life will most likely be at least a bit easier if he's able to defend himself and move unseen. That's why the TMNT probably move up on the rooftops. If I was a Turtle, I'd be the same, I'd realise that I have to be able to defend myself, being able to fight off the hard world up there in order to survive.

And Leo wants to have it as easy as possible and if "training = easy" then "more training = easier".

And Raph loving violence is bollocks. I have my anger inside me as well, and I let it out sometimes (actually as soon as someone really ticks me off), but I do not love violence. I do not want to hurt anyone, even if I've just beaten them unconscious. Go figure.

Donnie not being interested... bollocks again. He is interested in martial arts, since he needs it to survive as well. But he does not want to use it. There's a huge difference between not using and not being interested. Donatello tries to find ways to avoid fighting, but if you have seen SAINW, then you see that he can fight and that he uses his skills.

That only goes so far. A truly skilled fighter is dextrous, graceful, precise, and clever, and Raphael has less of these attributes compared to the others.
If you have seen to many fancy movies, then yes. Then a skilled fighter moves faster than light, looking cool and always making a witty remark. Let me guess, you have never really been in a fight. Not one of those sparring-things, but the real deal. There's nothing cool and graceful in there.

[trexmaster]

Let me guess, you have never really been in a fight. Not one of those sparring-things, but the real deal. There's nothing cool and graceful in there.

You have failed to refute my point that superior dexterity, grace, cunning, and precision are advantageous in a fight.

[NightwatchersOnlygirl]

My Raphael Is the best figther:D

[Serp]

I'm sorry, but we're talking about ninjutsu, not kung-fu or karate. In ninjutsu, a genuine appreciation of the art is the most important, not the ability to obey robotic commands and orders. Michelangelo is the only turtle with a genuine love of ninjutsu, so he's the most open-minded. Leo trains only to please Splinter, Raphael trains only because he loves violence, and Donatello doesn't even care that much.

That said, Leo is probably second to Mike, which I think is pretty good. Don't think I'm trashing Leo.



That only goes so far. A truly skilled fighter is dextrous, graceful, precise, and clever, and Raphael has less of these attributes compared to the others.



I have never trained in Ninjitsu, but I would think its more than just wild unpredictable moves, you would have to have a certain mind set. Sure mike is open minded, but whats to say that his brothers aren't frome time to time. Sure Leo is a "By the Book type fighter" but Mike is on the lazy side so which do you think is Worse!? I'm not trashing Mike but his is a lot layzier than Leo.

[Anarky]

You have failed to refute my point that superior dexterity, grace, cunning, and precision are advantageous in a fight.

They help, but mostly it's all about being prepared and experience. When you're fighting, you don't have the time to think, you don't have time to develop awesome plans and cool looking moves. What you do is whacking your opponent as hard as you can so that hopefully he doesn't whack you. And that's the problem with most martial artists, they're nothing but artists. They know plenty of cool looking moves they can use in a certain situation. But in a fight, there is no certain situation, a fight is nothing stiff. The rules are bent and there's no standard maneuvres. You can have all the grace you want, but if you get hit, it will hurt. If you get hit a lot, you won't get up. All that fancy fighting you see on TV has got nothing to do with real fighting. Most of the time, you don't even see the first hit coming, unlike TV where the fighters hold long speeches before they actually get to the fighting.

If you want to know more about that, then I recommend you to read this book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873644964/102-0951664-6645753?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance). It teaches you a lot about fighting in general.

My Raphael Is the best figther:D
Can you please tell us why he is the best fighter? You know, we're having a bit of a discussion here. Maybe your insights will help.

[Jo269976]

Leo, if you don't know why, you'd better leave now :P

[Rhane]

I already voted a while ago, but now i'm adding in my opinion on all of this. Personally speaking Leo isn't my fav character, but I still voted for him. Leo's life truly revolves around this. He spends all his time and a lot of his energy perfecting his technique. Mikey, Raph, and Don are also very good martial artists, but they all have different areas of interests. As Ryona pointed out, this is Leo’s hobbie.

[Ryona]

I'm sorry, but we're talking about ninjutsu, not kung-fu or karate. In ninjutsu, a genuine appreciation of the art is the most important, not the ability to obey robotic commands and orders. Michelangelo is the only turtle with a genuine love of ninjutsu, so he's the most open-minded. Leo trains only to please Splinter, Raphael trains only because he loves violence, and Donatello doesn't even care that much.

That said, Leo is probably second to Mike, which I think is pretty good. Don't think I'm trashing Leo.

*sighs*

This is getting ridiculous now.
Really, you're not telling it like it is. Now I've been a fan of TMNT since 1988. If you're very new to TMNT, than I can understand why you're perseptions of the guys are a little wonky. If you are infact a long time fan, well then, really, you're being stubbourn dispite the facts.

Mikey never shows any love for Ninjutsu. He may like it, but he doesn't love it. By contrast, Leo truely does love the art. Leo has a strong passion for Ninjutsu and martial arts in general. It's quite obvious. Like Anarky said, Leo as well as the others train because they have to to survive, but Leo has a special interest for the arts. For crying out loud, Leo's favorite book is The Art Of War. Leo is ALL about the martial arts.

If you want to believe Mikey is the best fighter regardless of the FACTS, you can go ahead, but I find it odd that you're trying to convince yourself and others that your bias perseption is correct.

Bottom line, everyone knows Leo is the best fighter, It's always been like that and is most likely always going to be like that. If you still want to be stubbourn about it, than I challenge you to write a letter to Peter Laird asking him who the best fighter is.


I'm sorry if my tone may seem harsh. I'm not trying to make it sound like Leo is the best at everything. Far from it. I'm just saying that when it comes to martial arts and combat, Leo truely is the best. Just about every fan knows this whether they want to believe it or not. It's common knowledge.



And another thing, what you said about martial arts is pretty off. You have to have a genuine appreciation for any martial art. Not just Ninjutsu. It's one of the most important things for any of them. Without the heart, respect, and passion for the arts, no amount of techiques are going to make you a master.

[Jester]

My Raphael Is the best figther:D
Can you please tell us why he is the best fighter? You know, we're having a bit of a discussion here. Maybe your insights will help.
That's asking a bit for a blinded by Love fan girl. :D

I"m a Raph fan, but I can still see his weaknesses. His hot headedness can be a real liability in a fight. Leo extra training and dedication, as well as his level head make him the best choice for leader. But now with Leo becoming more out of control, I dunna if he's still the best leader. He's right, but a true leader can motivate without blowing up.

Yes, Mikey's the most athletic, but that's like saying just cause someone can play say, basketball, it makes him a good fighter. He might be more agile and swift, but if he were to go against a trained fighter, he'd get waxed. Same with Raph, he may be the strongest, but just shere brawn can't stand against a trained fighter. Though finese may be non esential, training is a must, and this is where Leo shines. He is one who trains the most. And in the heat of battle that dedication shine through.

As for Donnie-T....I dunna. He's my second fave (maybe even tied with Raphie) but he's diffrent enough from me that I can't get into his head. As Anarky said, he's able to defend himself, but he'd rather not. He's the most pasifistic of the group, but slaugher his family, alla SaiNW, and he can open up that provebial can of Whoop Touckus. Donnie'd rather use non-violent methods of attack. he's the TMNT Ghandi (please note, I'm being a bit sarcastic and exagerating.:P).

[trexmaster]

Mikey never shows any love for Ninjutsu. He may like it, but he doesn't love it. By contrast, Leo truely does love the art. Leo has a strong passion for Ninjutsu and martial arts in general. It's quite obvious. Like Anarky said, Leo as well as the others train because they have to to survive, but Leo has a special interest for the arts. For crying out loud, Leo's favorite book is The Art Of War. Leo is ALL about the martial arts.

Sun Tzu's book is about military tactics, not Japanese martial arts. You've convinced me that Leonardo is great at strategy, but I am talking about fighting action.

Leo's attitude towards martial arts is more "teacher's pet" than a genuine love. Really, Leo just does it because he feels that he must fulfill a "duty" to Splinter. Mike enjoys training and ninjutsu for its intrinistic nature. Both of these attitudes may help, but since Mike's love for ninjutsu is more natural and less forced, he has the upper hand.

And, as I recall, in an issue of the Mirage comics, Mike was the only Turtle who was actually training when they were in the woodshed. Leo was hunting deer, Raph was moping, and Don was doing what he does best (machines!).

[Ryona]

Yeah, I know that Art Of War is not a book of martial arts per say... but isn't Ninjutsu a military martial art anyway? If you happen to know oh so much about ninjutsu, you would know this to be a fact.
Also, The Book Of Five Rings too isn't exactly a martial arts book, but it's very useful as an aid to becoming a great warrior.


And again, I see you're being really ignorant dispite that the facts are shoved in our faces from everything TMNT. From the early days of the Mirage comics, all the way to the current series.


And, as I recall, in an issue of the Mirage comics, Mike was the only Turtle who was actually training when they were in the woodshed. Leo was hunting deer, Raph was moping, and Don was doing what he does best (machines!).

Lol! You're using that to defend your claim? Let me help you out here... Mikey was actually pretty out of character during that time period. He was so shook up of what happened to Leo that Mikey started imagining the worst and started to train hardcore in the barn. He eventually loosened up though and when back to being his old self.
And the reason we didn't see Leo train was because he was still healing from his near death experience.

[DSWBandit]

I have no clue. For my voting techniques...
I vote OUT Mikey. Like those before me, he goofs off too much, although the nunchukus pack a wallop.
Now I vote out Raph. 2nd favorite Turtle is like me. If I get mad, I can't think straight, and end up losin' it.
The next and deciding vote out will go to Donnatello. I like this dude alot, and I've got a similer weapon so I know what kind of position he's in. He thinks very good though, and that's what gives him the advantage.
However, it's Leo's well-roundedness, determination and slicing katana blades that makes him the best fighter. I VOTE for Leonardo DiCaprio. XD (oh god.)
-The Bandit

[trexmaster]

I give up, I am getting tired of arguing with you. It's an exercise in futility, and I admit that my debating skills are not up to snuff.

[Ryona]

Look, I don't want tension between us. But you have to understand that though you favor Mikey over the others you have to acknowledge that Mikey is not the best fighter. I know that you know this. When you state something that is false just for the sake of trying to make your turtle shine, it confuses the new TMNT fans who pass by here everyday for information about the TMNT.

You may not know this, but next to the official TMNT website, the Technodrome is the most popular source on the Web for TMNT fans to come and get their turtle tidbits.

If we post innaccurate information about anything from the TMNT universe, it confuses those who don't know better. It confuses those who are looking for the right and honest answers to their questions.

So what if Mikey is not a better fighter than Leo. Is that really a big deal? They're all good at something. They all have their interests and hobbies which they excel at. Leo excels in fighting. So what? Mikey as well as the others excel in other things. They all have something that they do well. It's what makes them unique and great.



Also, I'd like to add that I've decided to write a letter to Dan from the official site asking who the best fighter is.
I'll post the recieved letter when I get it as well as my sent letter.
This ought to put an end to all the confusion in this thread.

[Wes]

Wow, this thread is getting kinda heated! Relax, folks -- we're just talking Turtles, not debating politics. (Isn't there a rule against that? :lol:) Actually, I'm probably gonna have to toss in my vote for Mikey. It may be true that ninjitsu is mostly a strategy-oriented art, but that's because the way of the ninja primarily involves stealth and surprise attacks (hence the negative attitude that other warriors hold towards the ninja, seeing as how they prefer their contests to be a one-on-one contest of strength and skill that isn't so much dependent upon hiding and resourcefulness) -- and while Leo excels at that, I think his combat improvisation skills are lacking, whereas Mike's are pretty impressive. Raph borders on psychotic, which is a definite weakness, and, like many have said, Don seems more or less apathetic about it all -- which is highly dangerous in a mechanically inclined supervillain, but not in a ninja. Besides, Mike is the BATTLE NEXUS CHAMPION, which is like a stamped declaration of his awesomeness. ;)

[Ryona]

Mike is the BATTLE NEXUS CHAMPION, which is like a stamped declaration of his awesomeness. ;)

:lol: That he is!
...Though I can't help but think that it was rather interesting that the writers had Leo disqualified by getting poisoned. Had Leo not been disqualified I think we would have ended up with a different Nexus Champ.

[GK Punk]

Mike is the BATTLE NEXUS CHAMPION, which is like a stamped declaration of his awesomeness. ;)

Oh yeah well RVD is a former Intercontinental Champion as well as Former ECW World Televesion Champion for near 2 years!

...Why is everyone looking at me that way?

[Jester]

Leo and Usagi kinda got shafted for the title of Battle Nexus Champion. Had the competed to the end, I wonder if the results had been diffrent.

[XERO]

Oh yeah well RVD is a former Intercontinental Champion as well as Former ECW World Televesion Champion for near 2 years!

...Why is everyone looking at me that way?

Plus, he's the whole F'n show!

[GK Punk]

Don;t you ever forget it ;)

[Jester]

So, if it came down to Mike and Usagi...or Mikey and Leo...who'd win?

[GK Punk]

So, if it came down to Mike and Usagi...or Mikey and Leo...who'd win?

....What, like I have to say it again?

[Jester]

RVD vs. a huricane....Huricane RVD?? OHHHHH!!!! :P

[Weapon X]

RVD Vs. Everything= Everything gets OWNED.


:P

[Jester]

What if it was RVD vs. RV??

[GK Punk]

I'd seriously feel sorry for that RV

[Blondus]

Hey, i feel were missing the most important part... The turtles works best together! Cant we all just settle on that and stop this endless bickering? My head is growing weary... :tgrumble:

[Sewer Bull]

Hey, i feel were missing the most important part... The turtles works best together! Cant we all just settle on that and stop this endless bickering? My head is growing weary... :tgrumble:

That's right Blondus. Any further discussion upon this is just pointless...

... so let's make "Best lover of the Turtles?" thread:P

[Buslady]

I'm sorry, but we're talking about ninjutsu, not kung-fu or karate.


Ninjitsu, as I understand, uses elements of ALL of the general martial arts and then added all the other elements like stealth and all that; .....it's all integrated into the whole Ninjutsu art.

Raphael trains only because he loves violence

I never read something SO FAR FROM THE TRUTH....:x
Raph trains because it is their way and it's for survival, he's determined not to let the bad guy get him, he doesnt like his uncontrollable violent side; he is ashamed how he sometimes loses control and just goes crazy. Raph doesnt mind a good fight, it's in his nature to- some pond turtles are aggressive, the way i see it, he's kept that part of his nature. He is a survivor, like he says, the big dog. in a dog eat dog world..I believe if he had a choice with what to do with himself, he would love to have a normal quiet life like anybody else...jee this is where alot of that anger comes from...:(

[Rhane]

Seriously now, let's all just agree to disagree. Alot of people are getting offended. Vote for who you want and leave it at that.

[Sage Ninja]

wow I thought that this was going to be a great thread but after reading all the posts to this thing I am completely irratated right now. **shakes head** I'm even reluctant to put in my two cents right now.

I think to some degree every one is being a bit biase even those who claim that they are just stating facts. But lets try and break this down a little.

I am sick to death of people making Raphael out to be some stupid mindless cave man. Yes the turtle has anger issues but he isn't some dumb drooling beast. I can't speak for Mirage Raphael, I really believe that New toon Raphael deseves better respect than this assumption. He is actually quite intelligent and has the abilty to be resourcful and when he has to be very level headed. I think he has matured a great deal since the start of this new series. Fighting wise Raphael is raw power and you have to respect that, the forse of his attacking style (and yes maybe I'm idealising him a little bit here) like a tidal wave, he just come at his oppent with such intent that its hard not to repesct it.

Donatello, I don't understand why people think he is the less skilled of the other turtles. From what I have seen he is very quick and agile and very perceptive and is usually able to anticipate and avoid most blows that would cause injury. He seems to do just fine in battle and is hardly ever in trouble. Most of the time I'm very impressed with his fighting he pulls of some rather fancy moves flawlessly and with precision. In my setimate I think he is just as good as Raphael and Michaelangelo.

Michaelangelo is a pretty good fighter but i wouldn't say he is the best. If this poll was based on who had the most potenticial in being a great fighter and most unlimited possiabliltes I'd would say Michaelangelo. I think i'm the only one who notices that out of all the turtles Mikey seems to need rescue the most, and its usually by Donatello who is (by most people's assumtion) to be the less skilled fighter of the group. i notice that Michaelangelo gets nocked around allot with out him putting up much of a defence, almost like he kinda just lets them take shots at him. I haven't figured out why just yet but suspect it has something to do with Michaelangelo, despite his cocky attitude on occasion, isn't all that conifident in him self. Michaelangelo actually has alot of skill and talent and I almost fuly believe that he isn't letting his true potanticail shopw what ever reason. But I don't think his lack of training is pure laziness, theres more to it than that. I think deep down Michaelangelo wants to avoid conflict and not assurp the dynimac that exisists with himself and his brothers by asserting his true abilties and capabilities.

I would get into Leonardo but I feel that Ryona has just about convered it so I would probably be redundant.

Over all They all exallent warriors and Leonardo being the most deicated is the most skilled. Vote goes to Leonardo.

[Jester]

I am sick to death of people making Raphael out to be some stupid mindless cave man. Yes the turtle has anger issues but he isn't some dumb drooling beast. I can't speak for Mirage Raphael, I really believe that New toon Raphael deseves better respect than this assumption. He is actually quite intelligent and has the abilty to be resourcful and when he has to be very level headed. I think he has matured a great deal since the start of this new series. Fighting wise Raphael is raw power and you have to respect that, the forse of his attacking style (and yes maybe I'm idealising him a little bit here) like a tidal wave, he just come at his oppent with such intent that its hard not to repesct it.
I hear ya, Raphie's good at what he does, he just loses his cool at times and that kinda short circites him a bit. He relies on strength too much. You can't out muscle everyone, Raphael.

Donatello, I don't understand why people think he is the less skilled of the other turtles. From what I have seen he is very quick and agile and very perceptive and is usually able to anticipate and avoid most blows that would cause injury. He seems to do just fine in battle and is hardly ever in trouble. Most of the time I'm very impressed with his fighting he pulls of some rather fancy moves flawlessly and with precision. In my setimate I think he is just as good as Raphael and Michaelangelo.
Agreed...heck look at The Battle Nexus episodes, in combat for sport, he lost quickly, but when it came to fighting for his life and the lives of Leo and the Daymio, he kicked shell. Donnie's very much underestimated. He took out Shredder, that's no easy task. But he did it with brains, and not brawn.
Michaelangelo is a pretty good fighter but i wouldn't say he is the best. If this poll was based on who had the most potenticial in being a great fighter and most unlimited possiabliltes I'd would say Michaelangelo. I think i'm the only one who notices that out of all the turtles Mikey seems to need rescue the most, and its usually by Donatello who is (by most people's assumtion) to be the less skilled fighter of the group. i notice that Michaelangelo gets nocked around allot with out him putting up much of a defence, almost like he kinda just lets them take shots at him. I haven't figured out why just yet but suspect it has something to do with Michaelangelo, despite his cocky attitude on occasion, isn't all that conifident in him self. Michaelangelo actually has alot of skill and talent and I almost fuly believe that he isn't letting his true potanticail shopw what ever reason. But I don't think his lack of training is pure laziness, theres more to it than that. I think deep down Michaelangelo wants to avoid conflict and not assurp the dynimac that exisists with himself and his brothers by asserting his true abilties and capabilities.
No to mention Splinter saving his butt. I can see Mikey as wearing his goofy psudo-confidence as a mask to how truely insecure he is. Splinter has saved his bacon numerous times, and Donnie to I guess (not to mention Raph, saving everyone's shells...see the Shredder eps....he's always helping a brother out.) Mikey has truely untapped potential, if he was even a little more dedicated, he might show leo up.

[Ryona]

Here's the letter from Dan as I said I would post here when I got it.


Here's what I sent...

Hi, Dan. I have a quick and simple question regarding who the best fighter is among Leonardo, Donatello, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

It's a debate that a few of us TMNT fans are having. Most of us know the answer, but there are a few who are still uncertain. The official word would really help out alot!

Thanks in advance! ^_^


~ Ryona


And here's the reply...

Howdy Ryona,

I'm afraid there is no official "best fighter" among the TMNT. Only
Raphael and Leonardo have tangled with the intent on harming one
another. Leonardo won the fight initially, only to have Raph turn the
tables on him when he hesitated (back in TMNT volume one # 19).

Since "best" is typically a subjective term, I'd say it's going to be
defined by an individual's personal preferences and can be argued
endlessly (as you've apparently been experiencing). Since Don is
occupied by being the "tech" guy and Mikey is the "nice" guy, I
suspect the debate is raging over whether Leo or Raph is best - and I
believe that's one reason why Peter Laird and Lloyd Goldfine decided
to have Mikey win the Battle Nexus Tournament in the cartoon series -
to show that "best" isn't so easily defined, and when it comes to
winning a fight, there are many extenuating circumstances and
strategies that lead to victory. There's also the aspect that on any
given day, predicting who will win a skirmish between two well-
trained athletes is impossible. Which leads to the sports adage:
"That's why we play the game" - or in other words - we won't know
until it happens. In the case of the Turtles, a full-fledge "fight to
the death" that would definitively answer the question of who's
"toughest" or "more skilled" or "best" is not likely to happen -
which isn't a bad thing, as the debates are part of the fun of fandom.

Thanks for writing!

Cheers!
Dan Berger
Mirage Studios' Official Web Dude

[Sewer Bull]

I can't help thinking Dan Berger cosiders Leonardo as the best fighter out of the pack but probably he likes Raph the most, thus he doesn't want to admit Leo's superiority openly. Hence that "Raphael-Leonardo" tie.

If Don is a "tech guy" and Mikey - a "nice guy", then Raphael is obviously "an angry guy" rather than "a good fighter", according to that logic. And what is left for Leonardo? "The fighter" of course.

This e-mail was strange.

[Ryona]

I hear what you mean, Sewer Bull.

I was disappointed that it wasn't a straight answer.

Like, it is Leonardo who's the best, and I know that Peter Laird has said so himself.

This letter just kinda beats around the bush. :ohwell:

[XERO]

You can't win 'em all, Ryona... :ohwell:

Nice try, though.:)

[Duke]

I don't see how there is even a question on this, it's Leonardo. And if Usagi or Leo hadn't been removed prematurely from the Battle Nexus tournament one of them would have been the Champ not Mikey.

[Masked Ninja]

I don't see how there is even a question on this, it's Leonardo. And if Usagi or Leo hadn't been removed prematurely from the Battle Nexus tournament one of them would have been the Champ not Mikey.I fully agree. Still... I do like that Mikey got the spotlight then. Even though he acted like a jerk about it until Grudge Match. :trolleye:

[Sage Ninja]

its a damn shame that no one has voted for Donatello, And just for that I have voted him! Seriously this turtle doesn't get enough credit in his fighting skills.

And your right that e-mail was rather vague, but it was also proffisional, stating a who is the "best" fighter is like voiceing a prefrence and a bias to your favorite turtle. Which could offend certain fan bases for another turtle. Which would be chaos.

I think it really depends on the universe, in the Old toon I would say the turtles where all about equal in fighting prowess, with Leonardo having a little more dilligence. I was upset on how they turned Michaealngelo into the worst fighter in later seasons, especially since he was better than compentent in the start and middle part of the series.

Fpor those of you who have read the Mirage comics, can we gewt a little run down on how the turtles where in battle and how they fought?

[Weapon X]

For those of you who have read the Mirage comics, can we get a little run down on how the turtles where in battle and how they fought?
Well in the mirage series they were basically all good, Leo was pretty calm/cool under pressure, Mike was serious when fighting and fast, Don was swift and calculating, and Raph was fierce, and at time would get a little heated. They were all good fighters though.

In the first issue none of them really stand out above the rest, it's not until later on in the series do you sorta see a couple characteristics that kinda differentiate them.

Like I said kinda.

[IceFlash78]

IMHO, All of the turtles are roughly equal in their skills. They've had the same, consistent training from Splinter. However, only Leonardo truly shines above them. Because he trains in his free time, and he has the most focus and desire to be a skilled fighter in comparison to the others, he is the best fighter.


However, I have to say that Mikey (I can't spell his name) has the most potential to be the best fighter, even more than Donnie, who is a pacifist and Ralphel who has the most strength, but not the patience nor the focus needed to be a good fighter.

In terms of the new toon, Mikey demonstrated his potential to be the best fighter, if only he wasn't so insecure and so lazy. I am thinking of three examples:

1/2) Battle Nexus/Grudge match: This showed that he had the skill to defeat the best opponents across the galaxy. True, it was slanted in his favor (such as knocking Leo out of the match early), but he still did it. Being the Battle Nexus Champion is no easy feat. It means something. It gave him some of the self confidence he needed.

3) Touch and Go. He demonstrated creativity and motivation to defeat his opponents. True, he had some help from Splinter, but this episode was still significant in that it showed that Mikey had potential for stragem and skill if only he would not be so lazy.

So, Leo is the best fighter, that's a given. But Mikey could contest him if only he would be less lazy about his training and spent more time studying strategy.

[Jester]

Has anyone thought to actually write to Peter Laird. Maybe his opinion or that of Kevin Eastman would put it to bed. I agree that Leo and Raph have come to blows the most and I can see Dan's logic...but I'm alsi a raph fan so any senerio where Raph looks good and even equal to Leo....then :D

[Ryona]

I've noticed that things like this always look more clear when you work it out mathematicly.

We can work out a fighter's statistics through some basic categories...


Physical strength and endurance.

Agility, speed, and reflexes.

Resourceful thinking, scanning, and calculating.

Spirit, focus, and drive.



Each TMNT has a rating in each of these categories.

Leo and Raph rank as the highest in physical strength and endurance. They're about equal in this category however Raph is able to push a bit further when he's in his rage mode.

Leo and Mikey rank as the highest in the second category. Mikey is the fastest and most agile while Leo has the best reflexes.

Leo and Don rank as the highest when it comes to being resourceful, scanning for weaknesess and opportunities, and calculating the turn of events. Don shows the greatest strength in this category however, especialy in resourceful thinking.

It can be said that all the TMNT have great spirit, however, Leo shows the most passion, dicipline, focus, and drive to be the best overall.


Setting the scoring system as 1 - 5 (1 being the lowest and 5 being the highest), here's the rating for each TMNT...



Physical strength and endurance

Leo - 4
Don - 3
Raph - 5
Mikey - 3


Agility, speed, and reflexes

Leo - 4
Don - 3
Raph - 3
Mikey - 5


Resourceful thinking, scanning, and calculating

Leo - 4
Don - 5
Raph - 3
Mikey - 3


Spirit, focus, and drive

Leo - 5
Don - 3
Raph - 3
Mikey - 3


Total Fighter rank...

Leo - 17
Don - 14
Raph - 14
Mikey -14




I really think that the official site should have a ranking chart like this posted up. It's clear, honest, true, and fair.

[Anarky]

Then again, that math system doesn't really work out either, since it's not neutral at its base. I mean, you can calculate all sorts of things since you know the results already. A mikey-fan will probably say that Mikey has a 5 in two categories and a 4 and a 3 in the other two, making him even with your Leo. Basically, what you're doing is backwards-math.

But it is a good approach, I must say.

[Ryona]

But it's totally honest and true. I'm hardly favoring Leo if that's what you're impling. It works out perfectly. Don, Raph, and Mikey are overall equal with Leo being just abit above them. How can anyone have a problem with that?

If someone did exactly as that example you said with Mikey, than that is down right playing favoritism.

[Anarky]

I'm not implying anything, actually. I just say that a system like this needs a result beforehand. You need certain standards by which you measure each fighter and you need to compare them before you give out ratings. Just because it works out doesn't mean that it's correct. Best example for working out and not being correct might be this:

1=1
9-21=16-28
9-21+49/4=16-28+49/4
(3-7/2)^2=(4-7/2)^2
3-7/2=4-7/2
3=4
4=5
2+2=5

And on a related sidenote: I love this thread. Some good discussion... finally. I've been waiting for sooo long. Thank you, Ryona.

[Ryona]

*blinks* I don't know what the Hell all those numbers are supposed to mean. :blanksta:

I didn't just slap them with numbers. I actually explained in detail why they would get those numbers.

Anyway, you're very welcome, Anarky. :lol:

[Leonardo_]

I also don't understand it.

So perhaps Anarky could set the scoring system *g* Would like to see how he places the turtles

[Anarky]

*blinks* I don't know what the Hell all those numbers are supposed to mean. :blanksta:

I just proved that 2 plus 2 equals 5. Math is flawless, the result is correct. Basically, every line is just another way of writing the one above.

I didn't just slap them with numbers. I actually explained in detail why they would get those numbers.

Of course you did, but certain attributes are exchangeable and subjective. You can't really judge them until you've seen them, like Dan said (and I missed that E-Mail), fight each other. My point is, that your system is basically a more advanced way to say "I like character X best!" or in neo-english "Ah liek cahra X best!!!111oneone". It's just another way of saying it, but by no means correcter than all the other methods.

[Duke]

1=1
9-21=16-28
9-21+49/4=16-28+49/4
(3-7/2)^2=(4-7/2)^2

All of these work out.
3-7/2=4-7/2
3=4
4=5
2+2=5While these do not.
But to be honest I'm not really sure why we are doing math in this thread.

[Ryona]

its a damn shame that no one has voted for Donatello, And just for that I have voted him! Seriously this turtle doesn't get enough credit in his fighting skills.

You're absolutely right, Sage Ninja.

I find it absolutely ridiculous and laughable even that so many fans think that Donnie is the most lacking as a fighter.
So many assume that fighting is all about brawn and speed and nothing else. That kind of thinking is moronic. The truth is the most dangerous fighters are those who are very inteligent and resourceful.

I can agree that if Donnie was fighting against Raph or Mikey in an arena type area where there's nothing around him but the platform under his feet, he would lose.
But if Donnie was fighting them in an open area like in the city with buildings, cars, and other materials around him, he could use his environment to his advantage. With his environment as a useful and powerful weapon, Donnie can seriously **** up Raph and Mikey and totally beat them.

[zkarlette]

[QUOTE=Anarky]I just proved that 2 plus 2 equals 5. Math is flawless, the result is correct.

Im really confussed:|

I guess is difficult to say who is a better fighter ... but Donnie seems to be the one the could care less about fighting , he seems to be more interested in many other things

[Ryona]

Of course you did, but certain attributes are exchangeable and subjective. You can't really judge them until you've seen them, like Dan said (and I missed that E-Mail), fight each other. My point is, that your system is basically a more advanced way to say "I like character X best!" or in neo-english "Ah liek cahra X best!!!111oneone". It's just another way of saying it, but by no means correcter than all the other methods.

But I'm NOT playing favorites. I was honest and truthful with the scoring and examples that I wrote.

I seriously don't like being accused of picking favorites just because my favorite one happens to be the best fighter. That really isn't fair at all.


I'm not bloody saying that Leo is the best fighter in the whole damn series. "Yeah! Leo number one!" ********. I know that Leo can be bested by Splinter and Shredder (and possibly Bishop). So please, don't make assumptions that I'm puting Leo on a damn pedestal.

[IceFlash78]

Heh... I actually understood Anarky's example. I've actually seen something similiar, but it was different, it proved that 1 = 0

Anyways, Ryona, his point is that althought your scoring system is logical and reasonable (and as a side note, it correalates with what I said about each turtle being roughly equal in terms of their overall fighting ability with Leo just being teensy better than them), you can't say that its correct. In the math example that Anarky was using, his method was logical and reasonable, but it is not correct.

I know Leo isn't your favorite turtle, Mikey is... I know you're just supporting what most of us believe, that Leo is the best fighter. I think we just want to firmly establish something that won't be seen as subjective (i.e., favoritism). We are just discussin everything in order to establish objectivity, so we can determine, without fanboyism, the best fighter.

The point is... you have nothing to compare with. You're just comparing them all against each other, but you can't really do that. It would be like me comparing my fighting powress against your fighting powress, and that's hard to do because it would be biased from either your perspective or mine. You would need to compare us from a netural perspective, say... in comparison to Splinter or Bruce Lee. It's the same way with the turtles. Who's to say that Mikey is an 5 in creativity or Donatello is an 5 in resourcefulness and the other turtlres deserve an 3? Why only 3? Why not 2 or 1? We would need to establish an standard fighter or a standard for each category then compare.


Sorry if I rambled on, its been a slightly long day.

That being said, I liked your post. It supported waht I had to say. I just thought the scoring system was just odd. *shrugs*

and yes... i have to agree... good discussion!

[Anarky]

Thank you, IceFlash, that was exactly the point I was trying to make. Point is, playing favourites or not, there's always some personal opinion involved, no matter how neutral you want to be. It's human nature. If you would really want to set up a system like that, then we'd need more than one expert, sitting together, comparing, discussing... basically what we're doing here in this thread. So your system is nice and all that, but it doesn't bring us closer to something we could all consider truth.

[Jester]

You're absolutely right, Sage Ninja.

I find it absolutely ridiculous and laughable even that so many fans think that Donnie is the most lacking as a fighter.
So many assume that fighting is all about brawn and speed and nothing else. That kind of thinking is moronic. The truth is the most dangerous fighters are those who are very inteligent and resourceful.

I can agree that if Donnie was fighting against Raph or Mikey in an arena type area where there's nothing around him but the platform under his feet, he would lose.
But if Donnie was fighting them in an open area like in the city with buildings, cars, and other materials around him, he could use his environment to his advantage. With his environment as a useful and powerful weapon, Donnie can seriously **** up Raph and Mikey and totally beat them.
But not Leo? I think any turtle, given an arena that fits his skills and strengths could take another. Donnie could take Mikey and/or Raph depending on the circumstances and local...so why couldn't Raph, Mike, or Don take out Leo? If Donnie could take Raph and Mike in a specific, Donnie friendly, environment, I repeat, why not Leo? Dan pretty much said that. No turtle is nessecaraly better than another, it's all a matter of the place and time of the brawl as to who would come out on top.

[Ryona]

Well, the thing is Leo seems to be the most well-rounded and balanced fighter out of the four, so it would be tough to find a situation in which the other three would have the upper hand against Leo. Of course, I'm not saying it's impossible for the others to beat Leo. Far from it. Nothing is impossible.
Infact, if I had to choose who would most likely be able to beat Leo in a fight, I would have to say it's Donnie.
"Same As It Never Was" showed that Donnie can defeat opponents as powerful as Shredder with proper planning. Donnie would certainly be able to figure out a way to defeat Leo.

[Jester]

Again your bias is showing....Leo's not some demi-god. The other TMNT if they played into their strenghts and on Leo's weaknesses they could all easily come out the victor.

[Ryona]

Oops. I think you missed this...
Of course, I'm not saying it's impossible for the others to beat Leo. Far from it.

I don't think that I have ever implied that Leo is a combat god compared to his brothers. Yes, Leo is overall better than them, but not by an immeasurable amount as you make it sound that I'm suggesting. Leo most likely isn't even twice the fighter his brothers are. He's just better by some amount. That means that he's more inclined to win, though there will be that small percentage that he could lose as well.


I think you're just upset that I chose Don instead of Raph as the most likely one to beat Leo.

[Jester]

That statement makes it seem that it would be a chance occurance, that if one of them got lucky they could take him. I'm saying that Leo could qute possibly be owned by one of his brothers, within the right environment and with the right oprotunity.

EDIT: I never trumped Raph up to be anything. I resect all the TMNT, and think that they all have their strengths and weaknesses and if the others played their cards right, any one of them could take out any other. Noone's nessecarily superior...it's all the game...Like Dan said, that's why we play. If a team went into a game all psyched into believing they were inferior to the team they opposed, it'd be pointless. The guys are all trained by the same master, and have differing styles, strengths and weaknesses. The outcome depends on multipal variables I don't even wanna take on right now.

[Ryona]

I'm saying that Leo could qute possibly be owned by one of his brothers, within the right environment and with the right oprotunity.

I agree with that, but you can't expect that Don, Raph, or Mikey will have a 50/50 chance of beating Leo. Like I said, Leo is more inclined to win. I think we can agree on that.

[Jester]

I think I'll use the cliched "Let's agree to disagree."

[Ryona]

Oy... Why do you people have such a hard time admitting that Leo is indeed the best fighter of the four?

Like I said many posts ago... They're are all extremely good at something. With Leo, it happens to be fighting.

Badda bing, badda boom. That's all.

[Jester]

I still stand on what Dan has said, and almost by proxy Laird and Lloyd.

[Ryona]

You say that only because Dan never came out with an answer. :P :lol:
All he did was just beat around the bush.

Deep inside you know that Leo is the best fighter, and the fact that you can't admit it is probably eating you up inside.

I can't even begin to understand why you and a few others can't admit that Leo is indeed the better fighter. It's like you guys are concerned that you're pride will get hurt or something. I really don't get it at all. Is this a "guy" thing or what?

[ammaranth]

I think Ryonardo here should just admit that she want's to have Leo's little green baby so we can move past all of this. :lol: I always got the impression that the turtles were more or less equal, with each of them excelling in different areas. Leo is the more serious, studied fighter of the bunch, but that doesn't mean that Don couldn't use a more calculated strategy to outfox him. Or Raphael might be able to overcome him in certain situations with sheer agression. As for Michaelangelo, I don't think we really know how well he can fight. I kind of get the idea that because he has a lot of athleticism and speed and natural ability, he could always get by without putting in the time for more serious training. I think that sense of untapped potential is part of what his character is supposed to be about.

But what are we really comparing here? There is so much difference bewtween the different turtles' weapons and their approach to combat, that we could probably imagine situations in which each of them could have an advantage. In the end, I think we may be asking the wrong question. The story is more about teamwork, and less about singling any one of them out as the "best" fighter. Sure it's a fun topic, but I think in all the bickering we're missing the point.

Ammaranth

[Masked Ninja]

Geez, more of this "reading way too far into it" stuff. Sometimes I think Ryona is a little too forceful with her opinions on Leo, but here I think she's doing OK. She stated her opinion and her reasons, giving a pointed concession that the others can beat Leo.

What if I said that Don was the best technical genius? And someone tried to say that the odds of his brothers making better inventions than his are 50-50? You'd think I was ridiculous. Don puts his heart into his technical toys, and Leo puts his heart into training. When you practice at something, you get better. Leo practices more, so he's a little bit better than the others.

Their strengths can play against him, and that's why Mikey's speed, Raph's strength, and Don's strategy will definitely get the better of him on occasion. But his training and acquired skill will allow him to make up for his disadvantage in those areas more often than otherwise. It doesn't make much sense to argue anything else, unless there's a character preference going on that makes it hard to accept things the way they are...
(and for the record, I don't really have a favorite Turtle anymore...)

Fortunately we don't have to worry too much about who is "best," because as Ammaranth said, it's about the teamwork. We accept that Leo has an edge in fighting skill, Mikey in athleticism and creativity, Raph in strength, and Don in strategy and quick thinking... and we consider how those individual specialties strengthen the team.

[GK Punk]

I totally agree with that.


With one Exception. Rob Van Dam is still better :o

[Anarky]

Deep inside you know that Leo is the best fighter, and the fact that you can't admit it is probably eating you up inside.

I can't even begin to understand why you and a few others can't admit that Leo is indeed the better fighter. It's like you guys are concerned that you're pride will get hurt or something. I really don't get it at all. Is this a "guy" thing or what?
If you remember correctly, I voted for Leo as well. But it seems that you're forcing, or trying to do so, your opinion on others. And we've got an official statement that one doesn't know, so what do we do? Exactly, we don't know. We have no chance to know, since canon doesn't know either.

There would be one possibility though: Canonrape. But nobody likes canonrapists. (Again, Harry Potter Fans will shiver when they read that. All I have to say is "Hermione Malfoy" :D)

I respect that "Leo = best" is obvious in your book, but in others' books it just as obvious that "Raph = best". In the end, you have no choice but to respect that. And you can't change that sometimes. Sometimes, you just have to let things go. And no, they don't feel "deep inside" that Leo is best and they're not having major emotional problems caused by not admitting it. For them, that's just the way it is.

[Blondus]

Oh, the bickering... Oh, horrible fate... Fare well, sanity! :dead:

[Ryona]

Wow... That's really fair... People here think I'm just being all fangirlish and picking Leo because I "love" him. :roll:
Interesting that a chick will never be taken seriously in a debate because people can just throw that stupid fangirl thing in her face rather than listen to reason.
I'm being perfectly logical here yet people just think "Oh, she's just a silly girl with the hots for Leo, so she doesn't know jack". Nice.

This really shouldn't be difficult at all. Every group of fighters will always have a top dog in the group. In Gundam Wing it's Hiro Yui. In Dragonball it's Goku. In Ranma 1/2 it's Ranma. In Beast Wars it's Optimus Primal. In Street Fighter it's Ryu. In wrestling it's Rob Van Dam (;) ). In TMNT it's Leonardo.

That's how it is. Could anyone honestly argue with this?



You people seem to think that I hold Leo in such high regard over the others. Well I got news for you... I happen to love them all just about equally. I just happen to be more interested with Leo.
They're all amazing fighters. Leo is of course just some what better than the other three. Not by alot.

[Anarky]

Wow... That's really fair... People here think I'm just being all fangirlish and picking Leo because I "love" him. :roll:
Interesting that a chick will never be taken seriously in a debate because people can just throw that stupid fangirl thing in her face rather than listen to reason.
I'm being perfectly logical here yet people just think "Oh, she's just a silly girl with the hots for Leo, so she doesn't know jack". Nice.

I never went the fangirl-/sexism-/bias-route. Infact, I'd have said the same thing to everybody who'd come up with the number system. It's still backwards math, creating an equation to a result you already know. It's not proving anything. This is not about you, this is about the number-system.

If I was going the fangirl-/sexism-/bias-route, I'd have said so. In things like these, I tend to be brutally honest. That usually works better than sweettalking stuff.

And no matter what way try to turn it, it still is a matter of personal opinion. You can't tell people what way they have to think or what is right. Not even with a fancy number system or some other number stuff. There's nothing you can do, actually. Some people just will never listen, it doesn't matter if they don't want to listen or simply can't agree with it. Point is, you are basically right in my book, but you can't expect others to believe the same thing. Besides, uniformed thoughts are boring.

This really shouldn't be difficult at all. Every group of fighters will always have a top dog in the group. In Gundam Wing it's Hiro Yui. In Dragonball it's Goku. In Ranma 1/2 it's Ranma. In Beast Wars it's Optimus Primal. In Street Fighter it's Ryu. In wrestling it's Rob Van Dam (;) ). In TMNT it's Leonardo.

That's how it is. Could anyone honestly argue with this?
At the moment (TMNT2k3, Season 4), he is. But what if Season 5 will be "Donatello featuring the TMNT" (this is just an assumption, so don't get any hopes from this)? Then he'd be the lead turtle. Sure, Leo will still be the same Leo as he is, but the lead character would change.

Besides, lead characters don't have to be the strongest/best/most beautiful/whatever character in a story.

I hope you understand that, and I never intended to attack you. Never. If you felt that way, I apologize.

[Anarky]

Okay, I'm terribly sorry for the double post, but there's news. Well, it's not "new"s it's more "old"s but still.

Class, open your comicbooks, Volume 4, issue 10 on page 64 and read the letter sent to Peter Laird by heretic888...

And what does it say there?

Even though Donatello is my favourite Turtle, I would have to give the nod to Leonardo... just barely

[Ryona]

Well how 'bout that? Now I don't look like such a silly girl who speaks nonsense anymore.

[IceFlash78]

There... that's what we've been waiting for all this time... a opinion THAT IS SUPPORTED BY CANON OR CANONMAKERS.

Laird has said that Leo is the best of all of the TMNT, (albeit by not much), and so we must accept his opinion as the final word on the subject.

Now we have a result that is supported by fact (Laird) AND Logic, (Ryona's arugments), which was what we've been trying to do all this time.

Ryona.. I respect your opinons. You don't act like a fangirl and go all "OMG LEO IS THE BEST BECAUSE HE"S SO COOL AND INTENSE!" You make very logical arguments and back up with reasonable evidence, but you push your subjective view upon others as if it was an objective view. Your result is correct, but as me and Anarky tried to explain before, the goal of this discussion is to establish, beyond reasonable doubt, the best fighter using substances that is based on FACT or CANON, not opinion. It would be so easy if somebody in the comics or the NT SAID that Leo is the best fighter. Of course they don't do that, so we have to look harder into the canon or into what the canon makers/experts say.

We could argue for years using stuff from teh new show that IMPLIES, not tell outright, IMPLIES, that leo is the best fighter. I learned in sociology that there's no such thing as an objective view--every perspective is subjective in some small way. You can I could use the same example to argue two completely different sides not because we're fanboys, but because we interpret them differently or view them in a different perspective. The worst part, both of our interpetations are correct. We cannot truly say that people who support Mikey are "wrong" or that people who support Leo is "right." Yes, I agree that Leo is the best, but what concrete evidence do we have? Its only when we look from a netural view that we can make a honest comparison. We can't compare the turtles to each other, we would need to cmopare them with a separate fighter such as ... I dunno.. Bruce Lee or with Splinter himself.

But enough aruging, as I view this topic as closed, because Laird himself, has answered our question. As "God" his word is final. However, that leaves us free to discuss a logical followup question...

What about the rest of the rankings? Whos the second best fighter? :lol:

[Anarky]

Well how 'bout that? Now I don't look like such a silly girl who speaks nonsense anymore.

I never said you were speaking nonsense. I said that the number system is no tool to find out who the best is. And I still stand by that.

What about the rest of the rankings? Whos the second best fighter?

AAAAGH! Another five pages. Let's just agree on Donatello. :D

[Ryona]

I never said you were speaking nonsense. I said that the number system is no tool to find out who the best is. And I still stand by that.


I didn't direct that to you... Only to those who it applies to. They know who they are.


And, IceFlash78, thanks and I hear what you're saying but I don't feel that I should be the only one to be lectured. There where quite a number of people in here who had issues with admitting that Leo is the best fighter. These are the people who I believe should be spoken to.


AAAAGH! Another five pages. Let's just agree on Donatello.

Well, you guys know that I chose Donnie as the all around next best. Like I said, with the proper planning, Donnie can be very dangerous. Plus, since Donnie has lived with his brothers all their lives, he would be able to use his sharp mind to take advantage of his bros' weaknesses quickly and effectively.
Leo would be a really tough one for Donnie, but Don can certainly handle Raph and Mikey and flatten them with a good strategic plan.

[Duke]

Now that we have proof Laird believe's Leo is the best fighter I hope some people will finally admit they were wrong.

[Jester]

I have no problem with the idea that Leo's the best fighter....It's all about the attitude behind it's main proponant. Dan Berger, though not "God" is still a member of the Mirage staff and has written and illustrated TMNT stories and his whole "Depends on when and where" was treated with utter contempt...called a wishy washy half answer....Not cool.

[ammaranth]

I'm going to guess that the,

Wow... That's really fair... People here think I'm just being all fangirlish and picking Leo because I "love" him.
Interesting that a chick will never be taken seriously in a debate because people can just throw that stupid fangirl thing in her face rather than listen to reason.
I'm being perfectly logical here yet people just think "Oh, she's just a silly girl with the hots for Leo, so she doesn't know jack". Nice

was directed at me, since I was the one who made the crack about Leo's baby and all. Honestly, I was not trying to be sexist or anything like it. I was making a joke. That, and I was looking for an excuse to use the phrase, "Ryonardo", and well, you kind of had this big, glowing, red, "DO NOT PUSH" button about the Leo thing, which makes it like those tags on matresses that say "DO NOT REMOVE TAG", which of course makes you want to pull the tag off, just because they told you not to, when if left up to yourself, you probably wouldn't have ever even thought of it in the first place.

So I made a joke, which seemed like what the thread needed at the time, a little more humor and a lot less seriousness. I hope you're not offended. No offense was intended.

Ammaranth

[GK Punk]

This really shouldn't be difficult at all. Every group of fighters will always have a top dog in the group. In Gundam Wing it's Hiro Yui. In Dragonball it's Goku. In Ranma 1/2 it's Ranma. In Beast Wars it's Optimus Primal. In Street Fighter it's Ryu. In wrestling it's Rob Van Dam (;) ). In TMNT it's Leonardo.


I Highly approve of this post.

[trexmaster]

Interesting that a chick will never be taken seriously in a debate because people can just throw that stupid fangirl thing in her face rather than listen to reason.

You have no evidence that your gender has anything to do with it.

And, what does Eastman think about this issue?

[GK Punk]

You have no evidence that your gender has anything to do with it.

...She was directly replying to a comment made towards her.

[Anarky]

I Highly approve of this post.

I dunno... to me, the TMNT or the way the stories are told, always seemed different. Like, there's no main character, no main Turtle so to say. I admit that the new toon could be renamed "Leonardo feat. the TMNT" at the moment, but I believe that it will change again. Personally, I wouldn't be against a couple of "Donatello feat. the TMNT" episodes...

[Sewer Bull]

And what about poor Benvenuto? His naginata looks fearsome.

Not mentioning Venus. I bet even Leo wouldn't resist her magic tricks. :P

[Ryona]

Oy... *shakes her head* You just had to bring fifth turtles into this, didn't you? :|

[Anarky]

Oy... *shakes her head* You just had to bring fifth turtles into this, didn't you? :|

I second that. And seeing that I'm having major issues about fifth turtles, I have the following statement to make:

ARGH!!! Why you...? Urge to kill... ARHHH!!!

Thank you.

[Sewer Bull]

Oy... *shakes her head* You just had to bring fifth turtles into this, didn't you? :|

Yes. Since yesterday, I'm widely known as the Tsar of Turpitude. :evilgrin:

Frankly speaking, I think this thread should have already been locked, as the further discussion seems to be rather pointless, because all the sides of this conflict have ran out of the reasonable arguments (and they repeat what they had stated before). Otherwise someone will post something in here in 2007 for sure, stating that "Rrraphie is the best".

Thus spake Sewerbulla.

[XERO]

Sorry, Sewer Bull, but this was one issue I chose to stay out of.:P

Thanks, though. I feel honored to be mentioned here.:)

Besides, I'm not even the second best fighter, and definitely not the last.

Sorry, Ryona and Anarky. I had nothing to do with that one.:P

If you guys want, I could make a thread about MY fighting skills.;)

[GK Punk]

I dunno... to me, the TMNT or the way the stories are told, always seemed different. Like, there's no main character, no main Turtle so to say. I admit that the new toon could be renamed "Leonardo feat. the TMNT" at the moment, but I believe that it will change again. Personally, I wouldn't be against a couple of "Donatello feat. the TMNT" episodes...

Go back and read my post again, I highlighted a certain part of her post ;)

[trexmaster]

I am sick to death of people making Raphael out to be some stupid mindless cave man. Yes the turtle has anger issues but he isn't some dumb drooling beast. I can't speak for Mirage Raphael, I really believe that New toon Raphael deseves better respect than this assumption.

I'm sorry, I was too hard on him. I sometimes am infuriated when some people here bash Mikey, sometimes to the point where I think very ugly thoughts, and yet I was bashing Raph, and therefore I did the same thing to many of his fans. My apologies for my unfair words.

[heretic888]

It's true that Mikey is the most agile, but Leo is right behind Mikey in that category

Actually, according to the Palladium TMNT RPG, Leo is not "right behind" Mikey in that category. There is twice the difference between Mike and Leo as there is between Leo and Raph. Look it up.

Leo is also very cunning, an excellent strategist and tacticion, and has a natural affinity for warfare and such.

I will admit Leonardo is a great natural leader, but nothing I have seen him do in either the new show nor the Mirage series has led me to believe he has a greater understanding of tactics or strategy than any of the others (with the possible exception of Raphael). In fact, I would pick Donatello as the one to excel in that category.

Not that things like "strategy" have anything to do with real martial arts or real fights. In a real life-or-death situation, you don't have time to think. You can't think.

Laterz.

[heretic888]

Now, I love Mikey, and no offense to Mikey fans, but I just don't get why he got any votes. Yes, he's the most agile, but it takes a Hell of alot more than being quick on your feet to be a superb fighter. Leo is superb in all aspects of fighting. He's a natural fighter where as Mikey is simply a natural athlete.

I voted for Michelangelo on the basis of what I have seen him do in the Mirage series and new show, outside information like the FoxBox website and Palladium RPG, and my own understanding of budo (as partial as it may be).

From what I have seen, Leonardo makes for a good "robot" martial artist that most people expect of budoka, but does not genuinely understand or express the budo spirit. Personally, I don't think ninpo is the ideal art for him, as it is very much at odds with his personality and training approach.

Additionally, Michelangelo has been described as the "natural fighter" of the bunch --- meaning, he has the greatest intrinsic talen in the martial arts --- whereas Leonardo is the most well-trained.

Laterz.

[heretic888]

I've noticed that things like this always look more clear when you work it out mathematicly.

We can work out a fighter's statistics through some basic categories...


Physical strength and endurance.

Agility, speed, and reflexes.

Resourceful thinking, scanning, and calculating.

Spirit, focus, and drive.


I personally don't agree with the aforementioned list at all, nor is it the approach to combat taken in ninpo.


Setting the scoring system as 1 - 5 (1 being the lowest and 5 being the highest), here's the rating for each TMNT...

Many of these statistics have already been laid out in the Palladium TMNT RPG, which Eastman & Laird worked closely on in the early days of the license and which Dan Berger told me is a more or less agreed upon interpretation of their characters.

Physical strength and endurance

Leo - 4
Don - 3
Raph - 5
Mikey - 3

This is completely wrong.

In terms of Physical Strength (P.S.), their actual scores are:
- Raphael: 20
- Michelangelo: 16
- Leonardo: 15
- Donatello: 13

In terms of Physical Endurance (P.E.)., their actual scores are:
- Raphael: 20
- Leonardo: 18
- Michelangelo: 17
- Donatello: 13

Agility, speed, and reflexes

Leo - 4
Don - 3
Raph - 3
Mikey - 5

Close, but somewhat off the mark.

In terms of Physical Prowess (P.P.), the actual scores are:
- Michelangelo: 24
- Leonardo: 20
- Raphael: 18
- Donatello: 17

In terms of Speed (Spd.), the actual scores are:
- Raphael: 15
- Michelangelo: 14
- Leonardo: 11
- Donatello: 10


Resourceful thinking, scanning, and calculating

Leo - 4
Don - 5
Raph - 3
Mikey - 3

The closest equivalent to this in the RPG is Intelligence Quotient (I.Q.), which doesn't directly have anything to do with combat:
- Donatello: 19
- Leonardo: 16
- Raphael: 12
- Michelangelo: 11

Spirit, focus, and drive

Leo - 5
Don - 3
Raph - 3
Mikey - 3

Difficult to evaluate this, but the closest things are Mental Endurance (M.E.) and Mental Affinity (M.A.).

Mental Endurance (M.E.):
- Leonardo: 16
- Donatello: 15
- Michelangelo: 14
- Raphael: 13

Mental Affinity (M.A.):
- Michelangelo: 19
- Leonardo: 17
- Donatello: 13
- Raphael: 11

Total Fighter rank...

Leo - 17
Don - 14
Raph - 14
Mikey -14

Well, ignoring Physical Beauty (P.B.) here, the total rank of the TMNT's actual Palladium attributes are:
- Raphael: 109
- Leonardo: 113
- Donatello: 99
- Michelangelo: 115

So --- going by Intelligence Quotient, Mental Endurance, Mental Affinity, Physical Strength, Physical Endurance, Physical Prowess, and Speed alone --- Michelangelo just edges out Leonardo, barely.

Of course, some of these attributes don't directly affect combat (such as I.Q.) but I would be willing to accept alternative uses of the relative ability scores outside of the mechanics of the Palladium combat system. Additionally, there are other things to take into consideration in the game (Leonardo, for example, is one experience level higher than Michelangelo which means he has one more attack per melee round and a slightly higher Weapon Proficiency bonus). But, all in all, they're pretty evenly matched.

I really think that the official site should have a ranking chart like this posted up. It's clear, honest, true, and fair.

There is already an "official ranking chart" like this in the Palladium TMNT RPG. Look it up.

Laterz.

[heretic888]

As for the TMNT's official combat skills in the TMNT RPG....

Raphael
- Attacks Per Melee: 6
- Unarmed: +5 to Strike, +7 to Parry/Dodge, +5 to Damage, +8 to Roll With Punch or Fall, +3 to Pull Punch
- Sai: +8 to Strike, +9 to Parry, +6 to Throw, +9 to Entangle

Leonardo
- Attacks Per Melee: 6
- Unarmed: +6 to Strike, +8 to Parry/Dodge, +2 to Damage, +7 to Roll With Punch or Fall, +3 to Pull Punch
- Katana: +9 to Strike, +11 to Parry, +7 to Throw
- Wakizashi: +9 to Strike, +10 to Parry, +8 to Throw

Donatello
- Attacks Per Melee: 5
- Unarmed: +3 to Strike, +3 to Parry/Dodge, +2 to Damage, +3 to Roll With Punch or Fall, +3 to Pull Punch
- Bo: +6 to Strike, +4 to Parry, +4 to Throw

Michelangelo
- Attacks Per Melee: 5
- Unarmed: +7 to Strike, +9 to Parry/Dodge, +3 to Damage, +5 to Roll With Punch or Fall, +3 to Pull Punch
- Nunchaku: +10 to Strike, +10 to Parry, +7 to Throw, +10 to Entangle

Weapons
- Sai: Forked Weapon, 1D6 Damage, can entangle one-handed
- Katana: Large Sword, 2D6 Damage
- Wakizashi: Small Sword, 1D8 Damage
- Bo: Staff Weapon, 1D8 Damage
- Nunchaku: Chained Weapon, 1D8 Damage, can entangle two-handed

Laterz.

[Ryona]

Oh, come on, Heretic... You follow those Palladium rules so seriously as if they were the ten commandments.

First, those character statistics where writin in 1985. That's only one year after the release of the first TMNT comic book. I would certainly believe that Eastman & Laird where still developing the TMNT during that time and nothing was writin in stone yet.

Second, Palladium isn't really a great system. There's other ones out there that are better, like White Wolf for example.
I mean, come on! You really think the stats in the Palladium book are so flawless? Have you not noticed the mathematical errors in that book? Lol!

Third, since you are following the Palladium books so rigidly, you'll notice that you really haven't been telling it like it is when you base it on their writen profiles.


Further more, how can you say that my writen stats are ****ing wrong? My calculations are based on near 20 years of observation where as those Palladium stats (some which are mathematicly incorrect) were based on a single year of TMNT when the boys where still going through developement.


A final note... You're quite knowledgable in ninpo and the martial arts in general, but it really isn't right to warp facts so that your favorite shines brightly beyond the rest. You give Mikey way too much credit and the others (especially Leo) way too little. I would seriously respect your opinion if it wasn't so biased.

And just so you know... Peter Laird himself said that Leo is the most excellent fighter of the four. You can't argue with that.


Ciao.

[Rhane]

This has gotten so outa control. You all got your answer on the best fighter and now all points have been exausted. Can't ya'll call it a day or have fun with it? It's not life or death. I know i'm not a patron here but the 'drome is know as being a fun and friendly place to talk tmnt, and i think we left friendly a while ago.

[DSWBandit]

As much as I can like him, cold hard facts just state Donatello sucks. XD I still agree on the "TURTLE POWER!" teamwork theory though. They won't get far without each other, but one to get the farthest on his own would have to be Leo. That's why i voted for me.
*slowly slips out hoping no one will notice his post and won't get caught up in the heated "serious" discussion*

[Ryona]

You guys are over-reacting a little bit. It's just a heated debate (which should be over by now with Peter Laird's authoritive word). When it comes to polls like this, opinions are going to clash. There's going to be those who are right and those who are baised. That's how it usually is.


And I just want to say that Donnie kicks alot of ass. If your opinion on Donnie was based on those ridiculous stats Heretic posted, I say to just ignore them. Those stats are just from a flimsy RPG system that some guy wrote after hearing a breif and loose discription of the boys back in 1985 when the TMNT were only in one year of their existence.

[Jester]

So....his facts are biased, though from knowledge, but yours weren't? I think we all have our biases....there's no escaping it. I think that the guide book, though it is only a year into the TMNT's existance may hold water. It was thought out, even if the TMNTs characters weren't yet.

[trexmaster]

And just so you know... Peter Laird himself said that Leo is the most excellent fighter of the four. You can't argue with that.

First, Laird is only one of the TMNT's creators. Second, from what I know, his response was very vague and tongue-in-cheek, making its reliability questionable.

[heretic888]

Oh, come on, Heretic...

Oh, come on, Ryona... :P

You follow those Palladium rules so seriously as if they were the ten commandments.

First off, I take all moral religious prescripts --- including the Ten Commandments --- with a rather hefty grain of salt.

Secondly, I was just putting the information out there for what it is. You wanted an "official" ruling on the TMNT's various attributes and abilities, well the TMNT & Other Strangeness RPG is the closest thing we have to that. It certainly beats your self-selected system --- in which many of the scores you gave (such as the Strength and Endurance rankings) were intentionally designed to favor Leonardo --- by a considerable degree.

Thirdly, I actually emailed Dan Berger about the Palladium attribute scores some time back. He flat-out told me that Eastman and Laird agreed with Palladium's interpretation of their characters. End of story.

First, those character statistics where writin in 1985.

Sure, but the revised edition was published in 1993. None of the attribute scores had changed (although other parts of the TMNT's profiles had, such as their particular Secondary Skills).

That's only one year after the release of the first TMNT comic book. I would certainly believe that Eastman & Laird where still developing the TMNT during that time and nothing was writin in stone yet.

This is indeed a possibility.

However, it is a logical fallacy to assume that because things may not have been "writin in stone" at this point in time that the aforementioned attribute scores would be different if written today. In fact, given FoxBox's original online profiles of the characters and their portrayal in issue 10 of the new Mirage TMNT series, that does not seem to be the case at all.

Second, Palladium isn't really a great system. There's other ones out there that are better, like White Wolf for example.
I mean, come on! You really think the stats in the Palladium book are so flawless? Have you not noticed the mathematical errors in that book? Lol!

This is just a Red Herring on your part. The "greatness" of Palladium as an RPG system has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Third, since you are following the Palladium books so rigidly, you'll notice that you really haven't been telling it like it is when you base it on their writen profiles.

So, I take the exact numbers directly taken from the book, but I'm not "telling it like it is", huh? :ohwell:

Two words: Prove. It.

Further more, how can you say that my writen stats are ****ing wrong?

Because some of them --- such as Leonardo having a higher Strength and Endurance rating than Michelangelo or Donatello --- are just stuff you made up to support your argument. In social psychology, we call these self-confirming biases.

My calculations are based on near 20 years of observation

In other words, you're making a fallacious Appeal To Authority, based on the fact that you've been a fan for close to 20 years. You aren't actually providing support for your position, just requiring others to trust your judgment because you've put in some down-time.

I've been "observing" the TMNT since 1988, so what does that make me??

where as those Palladium stats (some which are mathematicly incorrect) were based on a single year of TMNT when the boys where still going through developement.

Those Palladium stats were also endorsed by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, a fact which was confirmed to me by Dan Berger. Your stats are just your own opinions, some of which are unsupported by any external evidence.

A final note... You're quite knowledgable in ninpo and the martial arts in general, but it really isn't right to warp facts so that your favorite shines brightly beyond the rest.

Kettle, pot, black?? :roll:

I suggest you actually re-read my posts, as I don't claim Mike "shines brightly beyond the rest". The same, however, cannot be said for you.

You give Mikey way too much credit and the others (especially Leo) way too little. I would seriously respect your opinion if it wasn't so biased.

Again: kettle, pot, black?? :roll:

Actually, if you'll look at my previous posts, you'll see that I only claim that Mike edges out on Leo by a slight margin. A 115 compared to a 113 is hardly more than a 1.5% differential, hardly anything to get worked up about.

Even when we compare the TMNT's combat bonuses, the only one of them who performs decidedly lower than the others is Donatello. If it came down to Raph, Mike, or Leo, my money would be on the luck of the draw.

And just so you know... Peter Laird himself said that Leo is the most excellent fighter of the four. You can't argue with that.

I can by putting it in context, something you are reluctant to do.

For example, I'm the one that wrote the letter to Peter Laird so it was based on a question that I specifically asked. His answer was vague, tongue-in-cheek, and hardly conclusive. Any casual observer could easily make note of that.

Plus, as a psychology student, I am well aware of the fact that creative productions can have a mind and life of their own well beyond the conscious decisions and opinions of their creators.

Ciao.

Laterz.

[heretic888]

And I just want to say that Donnie kicks alot of ass. If your opinion on Donnie was based on those ridiculous stats Heretic posted, I say to just ignore them. Those stats are just from a flimsy RPG system that some guy wrote after hearing a breif and loose discription of the boys back in 1985 when the TMNT were only in one year of their existence.

You, of course, have no evidence to support this conjecture. It is nothing more than wild, baseless speculation on your part.

I emailed Dan Berger about the Palladium attribute scores. He confirmed that Eastman and Laird agreed with their interpretations of their characters. That similar descriptions were given on the original FoxBox website (such as Michelangelo being a "natural athlete", a fact that is only corroborated by the Palladium RPG) and allusions to these qualities were demonstrated in issue 10 of the new Mirage TMNT comic (where Raph was lifting weights, Mike was practicing with an 'agility machine', and Leo was practicing kata with a bokken), only further supports this supposition.

Before you start screaming about everyone else's "bias", you should perhaps take a look in the mirror.

Laterz.

[heretic888]

In case anyone is intersted, this is exactly what Dan Berger said to me via email over a year ago....

DB: "[The Palladium RPG stats] are as official as it gets."

DB: "Kevin and Pete worked very closely with Palladium during the early years, as there wasn't really any other TMNT licensing going on at the time."

H888: "Did Kev and Pete agree with Palladium's basic interpretation and presentation of the characters??"
DB: "Yes."

H888: "Did they 'approve' everything?"
DB: "Yes."

I think his answers are pretty straightforward.

Laterz.

[Sewer Bull]

Hmm... heretic, how about editing your initial post instead of writing new ones after a few minutes?

[heretic888]

Hmm... heretic, how about editing your initial post instead of writing new ones after a few minutes?

My bad. :P

[Ryona]

Oy... Back to your old habits, eh, Heretic? Remember what happened those months ago when you trolled around through threads? As I recall, people didn't like it and it nearly got you a warning.

You're extremely biased. Just deal with it. I may give a bit of extra attention to Leo, but you my friend... when it comes to over-gratifying a favorite character, you take the cake.

Your Palladium stats may hold some weight, but so does just about any TMNT stats that have been legally distributed into any TMNT product.

Here's a screen cap of recent stats for the boys.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9543/konami0340lz.png (http://imageshack.us)
As you can see, it doesn't totally match the RPG stats yet it's just as valid if it's legally displayed in a TMNT game.

And like I said, there are mathematical errors in the Palladium book. Certain stats don't add up with the skill bonuses and such, so, really, the info is not completely reliable.

And yes, I feel you abuse your martial arts knowledge because you seem to use it only to highlight Mikey and cast the rest of the boys in his shadow.


I think Mikey is a great character. Really, I do. I infact even created a special thread for him in the art forum (in here (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=14109)) because I honestly do feel he's the most under-rated of the four.
But when you post such ridiculously biased posts of Mikey like you seem to always do, it really doesn't do him much justice as you may think. All it does is just over-glorify him, and people can see right through that.
I'm all for supporting Mikey, but if you continue to keep raising Mikey on this fanciful pedestal you've created for him, I will not hesitate to knock him off the highhorse you've carefuly put him on.



With that said, I feel we should continue with our discussion on who's the second best fighter since Anarky was helpful enough to give us the official heads up that Leo is indeed the best. End of story with that. If there is anymore arguments on who ranks as the number one fighter, I will see to it that this thread gets locked.

[Machias Banshee]

Christ, I come to check for PMs and I see this bullsh!t.


I say that Both of you have your biases and both are close-minded in your ways of listening to other people's opinions.

Disagree with me? Fine. But Don't bring down the thread for everyone else. There are fans of Other characters on the board. Don't wreck it for THEM.

[Jester]

Oy... Back to your old habits, eh, Heretic? Remember what happened those months ago when you trolled around through threads? As I recall, people didn't like it and it nearly got you a warning.
So far he seems to be keeping a cool head, and just presenting his facts.

You're extremely biased. Just deal with it. I may give a bit of extra attention to Leo, but you my friend... when it comes to over-gratifying a favorite character, you take the cake.
Um....I dunna....anyone says 2 cross word about leo and they get a textual reaming...
Your Palladium stats may hold some weight, but so does just about any TMNT stats that have been legally distributed into any TMNT product.

Here's a screen cap of recent stats for the boys.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9543/konami0340lz.png (http://imageshack.us)
As you can see, it doesn't totally match the RPG stats yet it's just as valid if it's legally displayed in a TMNT game.
I'll give you that, any TMNT profile would be considered valid...Maybe we should take a look at more than 2, compile a hard and fast "over all strengths and weaknesses" chart.
And like I said, there are mathematical errors in the Palladium book. Certain stats don't add up with the skill bonuses and such, so, really, the info is not completely reliable.
I'd like to see this....could you post these errors please?
And yes, I feel you abuse your martial arts knowledge because you seem to use it only to highlight Mikey and cast the rest of the boys in his shadow.
And you've often used certain things to show how Leo trumps all in more than just fighting skill...and have made it clear that those who don't agree are obviously ignorant. He's just stating his thoughts....

I think Mikey is a great character. Really, I do. I infact even created a special thread for him in the art forum (in here (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=14109)) because I honestly do feel he's the most under-rated of the four.
But when you post such ridiculously biased posts of Mikey like you seem to always do, it really doesn't do him much justice as you may think. All it does is just over-glorify him, and people can see right through that.
I'm all for supporting Mikey, but if you continue to keep raising Mikey on this fanciful pedestal you've created for him, I will not hesitate to knock him off the highhorse you've carefuly put him on.
The kid won the Battle Nexus Turnament, he's show he can handle a fight with a legitimate defeate of Kluh, as you said Mikey is underrated (as for most underrated I'd go with Donnie...hey there's a new thread idea...:P) Mikey might be better than Leo as an improvizational fighter, but in a strategy...Leo trumps Mike. I think we've neglected to take on certain styles of fighting...like who's the best tatitisian? Who's the most powerful? If we have then...whoops....but that could be something to keep the thread alive aside from 2nd best...:P


With that said, I feel we should continue with our discussion on who's the second best fighter since Anarky was helpful enough to give us the official heads up that Leo is indeed the best. End of story with that. If there is anymore arguments on who ranks as the number one fighter, I will see to it that this thread gets locked.
That seems a bit harsh...and like a psudo-abuse of the powers give you...He may be biased....but having a favorite turtle causes us all to be biased....

As for second best....I dunna....I think aside from maybe Leo, they are all equally matched, depending once again on the environment....

[IceFlash78]

I'm sorry... but this constant mud-racking annoys me.... I want to try to reconcile the chasm between Ryona and Heretic. To me, it just seemed like Heretic was just stating his opinions, and that he was just trying to analzye Ryona's statements from one of her posts where she didn't back up with evidence, or atleast CONCRETE evidence, and was just debating her possible bias or wahtever.

Laird says that Leo is the best figther. That is canon. However, Heretic also proved that The Palladium RPG stats is also canon by showing us emails in which Dan confirmed that the stats are reliable and that Laird approved of them. So we have two conflicting views, both of which is canon. How can both views be right? By analyzing them, and when you do, you can make an interesting conclusion:

The Palladium stats is correct in stating that Mikey has the best overall fighting stats, and that Leo is just a midge behind him. Didn't we agree that out of the turtles, Mikey, while not being the best fighter, has the most potential if only he would focus more?

Indeed, the Palladium stats are missing one vital component: Personality. As most TMNT incarnations show, Mikey is somewhat unfocused in his training (more so in the new show). Leonardo, as we know, is all about training. This seeming insignificant difference in personality can have a huge effect on their fighting abilities. Leo compenstates for his weaker stats by being so focused in fighting that his abilities surpasses Mikey, and Mikey hides his abilities by being so lazy.

This reminds me of a post somebody else made in this topic explaining how in martial arts, the strongest fighter with no focus was always surpassed by weaker ones with more focus.

While I voted for Leo, and believe that he is the best fighter, I wanted to write this in order to reconcile Ryona and Heretic who I feel is quickly turning this good discussion into another mudracking contest like in a episode discussion a while ago at the New Show board.

[Jester]

*applaudes* Well written Iceflash...That's about the most thoughtful post I've read in this thread...:P Good stuff.

[XERO]

I wonder who Eastman thinks the best fighter is.

Just because he sold his rights to Laird doesn't mean he doesn't have a say in all of this.

[Jester]

True Benny...

[Masked Ninja]

Laird says that Leo is the best figther. That is canon. However, Heretic also proved that The Palladium RPG stats is also canon by showing us emails in which Dan confirmed that the stats are reliable and that Laird approved of them. So we have two conflicting views, both of which is canon. How can both views be right? By analyzing them, and when you do, you can make an interesting conclusion:

The Palladium stats is correct in stating that Mikey has the best overall fighting stats, and that Leo is just a midge behind him. Didn't we agree that out of the turtles, Mikey, while not being the best fighter, has the most potential if only he would focus more?

Indeed, the Palladium stats are missing one vital component: Personality. As most TMNT incarnations show, Mikey is somewhat unfocused in his training (more so in the new show). Leonardo, as we know, is all about training. This seeming insignificant difference in personality can have a huge effect on their fighting abilities. Leo compenstates for his weaker stats by being so focused in fighting that his abilities surpasses Mikey, and Mikey hides his abilities by being so lazy.

This reminds me of a post somebody else made in this topic explaining how in martial arts, the strongest fighter with no focus was always surpassed by weaker ones with more focus. And with that, you've hit my opinion square on the head. Mikey has the potential to be better and his strength/whatever stats would add up higher than Leo (I would think this even without the RPG to back me up, methinks) but it's Leo's love of martial arts that leads him to train more and harder. And thus, he fights better. Whereas Mikey is the best fighter on paper.

Yes. Excellent compromise. *claps*

[Rhane]

Christ, I come to check for PMs and I see this bullsh!t.


I say that Both of you have your biases and both are close-minded in your ways of listening to other people's opinions.

Disagree with me? Fine. But Don't bring down the thread for everyone else. There are fans of Other characters on the board. Don't wreck it for THEM.

Bravo. Everyone should stop the fighting and have a friendly debate, not an all out war.

Laird says that Leo is the best figther. That is canon. However, Heretic also proved that The Palladium RPG stats is also canon by showing us emails in which Dan confirmed that the stats are reliable and that Laird approved of them. So we have two conflicting views, both of which is canon. How can both views be right? By analyzing them, and when you do, you can make an interesting conclusion:

The Palladium stats is correct in stating that Mikey has the best overall fighting stats, and that Leo is just a midge behind him. Didn't we agree that out of the turtles, Mikey, while not being the best fighter, has the most potential if only he would focus more?

Indeed, the Palladium stats are missing one vital component: Personality. As most TMNT incarnations show, Mikey is somewhat unfocused in his training (more so in the new show). Leonardo, as we know, is all about training. This seeming insignificant difference in personality can have a huge effect on their fighting abilities. Leo compenstates for his weaker stats by being so focused in fighting that his abilities surpasses Mikey, and Mikey hides his abilities by being so lazy.

This reminds me of a post somebody else made in this topic explaining how in martial arts, the strongest fighter with no focus was always surpassed by weaker ones with more focus.

I agree 100%. A good post with evidence to back it up, opinions placed carefully, all in all a model post in my opinion. ((keep in mind it's just my opinion, don't hurt me))

[IceFlash78]

Thank you Jester, Masked Ninja, and Rhane. I appreciate the support. I just wanted some reconcilation... whenever two persons with strong opinions that are ont he opposite side of the spectrum, it tends to create a chasm that, while making the topic interesting to read, just alienates everybody else. I just wanted to bring everybody into this discussion.

I just kinda wish I knew what Ryona or Heretic thought of my post? I mean, it was partly written for them, so I'm curious to see how they felt when they read that.

[Anarky]

Hmm... interesting. I come back and Ryona's more pissed than ever. Hooray, good job, all of you (including Ryona). Anyways, considering your problems with contradicting canon, I'd say that it's probably been mentionned before: Canon changes. You might remember a character called Venus De Milo. She was canon for a while. Or Donatello as a cyborg, eve he was canon for a while. Canon changes, so all we can go with are the most recent news. And the most recent thing I can come up with is Laird's statement in Mirage vol. 4

Just because he sold his rights to Laird doesn't mean he doesn't have a say in all of this.
But of course it means that he hasn't got anything to say in this.

[Duke]

But of course it means that he hasn't got anything to say in this.I don't know about that. He has the right to an opinion just like everyone else in this thread. Plus I think his opinion really holds weight if he stated it like this "Up to the point when I sold my TMNT rights, I always pictured _______ as the best fighter."

[BlueSonnet]

Being that i'm still more or less trying to bring myself back up to speed on my fandom for TMNT, i'm a little rusty as a whole. I think the obvious thing to state is whilst its fine to say Michealango could be better if he wasn't so goofy (with lack of a better word) i'm sure you can provide similar arguements for the others if they overcome their weaknesses. As it stands at the moment i'd say Leo would stand as the best (when considering he's the "unofficial" leader aspect) even then with others having weaknesses who's to say that Leo doesn't have any? Sure looking at those recent stats in that pic i'd say the adaptable-looking Leo is your most reliable bet to victory, even he doesn't have perfect scores. I suppose as it stands its a fact only for future reference rather than a current one

But hey that's my say, and i should address after looking at this thread that i'm not looking for a fight about it either.

Hey, i feel were missing the most important part... The turtles works best together!

I suppose it'll explain why the series is called "Ninja turtles" rather than "The Ninja turtle and his lame brothers" =P

[NameGoesHere1066]

I voted for Raphael. I think he is the best potenticial fighter of the bunch. He may be the hot head but if he ever got over those issues and combined that with his lethal tendacies he could be a force. Plus I don't know why Leo has gotten so many votes. Yeah he's skilled and dedicated but he's has K.Oed Leo twise in the comics and won the dual they fought in the new movie.

[Ramboraph4life aka Matt]

For some reason this thread reminded me of another thread, one in which they were talking about what other fighting styles could the turtles learn to use.

I think if Raphael trained himself (I don't know the reason, so I should reword it to 'if he was trained in') in something like Aikido. That would be nice and Raphael would definately be the best fighter of the group (I guess honestly you could say that for any of the turtles...but I do think this style fits Raphael to a T and it would be an explosive combination of power...with a little bit of fluidness that Raph needs to make him a little bit better)

And for those who don't know what Aikido is: Just picture these 2 sequences from a movie with Raphael in the place of the 'lead guy'. (They both even have Brooklyn accents lol :P)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMu2xNBpyQc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8ixgdDPufA

So I guess bottom line: A) Raph with Aikido would be awesome
B) Raph is the best fighter of the group...at least in my opinion

Again I think it'll all go down to whichever is your personal fave...cause you can always give a reason that they could reach a 'potential' they haven't gotten to yet.

[Spitfire]

Not even just because he's my favorite turtle but I'll go with Don. You can visually watch the turtles fight all the time, and in the show there's been quite a few times where Don was the last one standing, but in every game I've played he;s been the best fighter to use.

[Jelly Bean]

I voted for Mikey. He may be a scaredy cat sometimes but there is no question that he is pretty powerful, and if stoped actling like a one man comedy skit he would probably be something fearsome as well.

[Cure]

Wow. I have no idea who she is, but that Ryona chick seems rather loony for Leo.

[NameGoesHere1066]

yeah, I would say so too. And it seems she used to be a moderater too :o

I think Leo is great and all but he isn't a ninjitsu god like she was making him out to be. Besides I've yet to see Leo take out Raphael but Raphael has taken out Leo.

I think it's pretty hard to determine who is the best fighter because there has never been a situation where the turtles have had to fight each other seriously. :ohwell:

[Kendamu]

I';; vote for Michelangelo, as his nunchaku are the most versatile of the TMNT weapons, being useful for defense (repelling attacks) AND offense (seriously, wooden rods spinning fast against your cheek would deliver SERIOUS discipline). Also, he's the fastest of the Turtles, and ninja need speed.

The worst (be warned, the following will be politically incorrect) is most likely either Donatello or Raphael. Donatello's weapon, though versatile, isn't particularly powerful. And although Raphael can stab with his sais, he's too stupid, like a brawling animal, to be an effective fighter.
Because, y'know, Raphael isn't kinda jealous of Leonardo's postition and tries to be the better fighter by training almost just as much or anything...

[triplexxx]

I think it's pretty hard to determine who is the best fighter because there has never been a situation where the turtles have had to fight each other seriously. :ohwell:With the exception of that Raphael and Leonardo brawl in the new flick, that's true, and even then, it would take more than just one fight to determine it since results can vary.

[Sage Ninja]

I had completly forgotten about this thread! It's kind of sad that so many drome regulars don't post here any more :( I wonder what ever happened to Ryona?

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

If you talk about traditional martial arts and ninjutsu, it's Leonardo, of course.

[triplexxx]

Well, being a best "overall" fighter is more than just about following tradition.

[Evenstar227]

So I guess bottom line: A) Raph with Aikido would be awesome


I thought aikido was a nonviolent martial art? That doesn't strike me as something Raph would want to excel at. Sounds like it'd be more up Leo or Don's alley than Raph's.

And now for something completely different...what about the fact that they were regular turtles before being mutated? Wouldn't that mean that they'd have similar natural abilities across the board? Granted, turtles are not known for their acrobatic agility (though common musk turtles (http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/cbd/herpdist/species/st_odoratu.html) are surprisingly good climbers). I mean, look at monkeys. Monkey to monkey, they have the same natural abilities. What I'm trying to say is that leaving personality based traits like focus, determination, love of training, etc, aside, they should all be equal. Or am I way off base here? (I only mention this in regards to arguments over who is the fastest, most agile, blah blah blah. Strongest isn't a factor either b/c you can increase that by lifting weights.)

[drasgow]

well, some animals are faster than others, or stronger just like people. that's how they search for the best mates. strongest fastest etc. so each turtle wouldn't have the exact same natural ability.

[Evenstar227]

That's true. I wouldn't expect to see a really big discrepancy between any of the guys, though. I basically figure them to be rather equal when it comes to natural ability.

[TheUltimateShredhead]

It's stated in both ot and nt that leo is the best skilled in the martial arts they practice ot(ninjitsu) nt(bushido).

[triplexxx]

What exactly do you mean by "OT (ninjitsu) NT (Bushido)"? In both series, their martial arts practice is ninjitsu; Bushido is an honor code, not a martial arts practice, it revolves around what purpose the turtles serve using their martial arts skill, and they're all equal in honor because they all serve the same purpose.
Also, yes Leonarod is said to be most skilled/basic-strategist, but the other turtles have their individual advantages too, Raphael's being strength, Michaelangelo's being speed, and Donatello's being technical-strategist/acrobatics. None of these individual advantages however are synonymous to being "overall best".

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Leonardo is probably the best of the four, with Raphael coming in second. What probably causes Leonardo to be better than Raphael is that Raphael's anger would probably become a distraction.

[triplexxx]

Still, no way to know for sure, unless there were a good number of real fights between any two of them, and the only one that did happen was in '07 and Raphael came out on top, but one fight doesn't determine anything.

[Jelly Bean]

well, some animals are faster than others, or stronger just like people. that's how they search for the best mates. strongest fastest etc. so each turtle wouldn't have the exact same natural ability.

Kung Fu Panda any one?

[TheUltimateShredhead]

What exactly do you mean by "OT (ninjitsu) NT (Bushido)"? In both series, their martial arts practice is ninjitsu; Bushido is an honor code, not a martial arts practice, it revolves around what purpose the turtles serve using their martial arts skill, and they're all equal in honor because they all serve the same purpose.
Also, yes Leonarod is said to be most skilled/basic-strategist, but the other turtles have their individual advantages too, Raphael's being strength, Michaelangelo's being speed, and Donatello's being technical-strategist/acrobatics. None of these individual advantages however are synonymous to being "overall best".

I guess i got misguided throw the series, im sorry if i declared something i don't got a clue about:P

[Sage Ninja]

in the old toon I was really put out on how weak of a fighter Michaelangelo was, he was considered the weakest of the four and Bebop and Rocksteady didn't seem the least worried about him and always seemed to after him specifically at times. Maybe all that pizza made him sluggish. :|

I'm glad that in the new toon Michaelangelo is portrayed as being exellent fighter with loads of potentcial that could rival Leo if put his mind to it.

[triplexxx]

I don't recall him being that weak in the OT, remember when he single-handedly ran down Leonardo and smashed Donatello's contraption in "Leatherhead Meets the Rat King", when he broke out his chains with his own muscle in "Michaelangelo's Birthday", and Leonardo never managed to take him down plus got disarmed one of his swords in that brief sequence the turtles were set against each other in "Splinter No More"? Yeah there were times he got taken down, like when he was on his own, but the same happened with the others.

[odupianist]

when it comes to natural ability, Mikey has them all beat. as far as training, Leonardo. If Mikey trained as hard as Leo does, he'd be able to kick Leo's butt I bet ya.

[NameGoesHere1066]

I'm glad that in the new toon Michaelangelo is portrayed as being exellent fighter with loads of potentcial that could rival Leo if put his mind to it.

when it comes to natural ability, Mikey has them all beat. as far as training, Leonardo. If Mikey trained as hard as Leo does, he'd be able to kick Leo's butt I bet ya.

I love how people bring up how much untapped potenticial Mikey supposedly has when there is nothing to really back it up. The guy is always the first to get nocked on his ass, he always needs rescue, and when ever he is confronted with danger he wusses out. He's also the most reluctant to fight of four, pretty weird for some one who has so much fighting prowess. So he shows a few spurts of awsomeness on occasion how does that "potencialy" make him better than Leo who trains all the time and takes ninjitsu seriously and gives all he's got all the time? I hear all the time that Mikey is a "natural athelete" or some sh** and that he is the fastest. All the turtles are pretty athletic and speedy so I don't see how that edges him ahead of them at all. He's lazy and just because he sometimes gives it more than ushual doesn't mean he is some fighting super god who can rival the likes of Leo if he puts more effert into it.

[triplexxx]

This is why I've mentioned before, about each of the turtle's individual advantages, that they're all only slight.
Yes, Michaelangelo's may be only slightly faster than the others, but Raphael's not much stronger than the others, nor is Leonardo much more skilled than the others, nor is Donatello much more acrobatic (yes, that's his "physical" advantage) than the others. None of them are "super fighting gods" as has been put...but they're all fairly well-accomplished masters. And all four of them have had at least one instance where they're able to rescue the other three all at once. And any of their individual advantages can indeed rival the others at any given time, it's just a matter of chance at who comes out on top.

[Hero]

Just jumped on this thread a little late :)

I think each of the TMNT has thier own fighting advantage: Leo with his discipline, Raph with his attitude, Don with his logic and Mikey with his goofyness (always good for psyching out).

I cant personally pinpoint who the best fighter is simply because I think it likely varies depending the boys are up against.

===HERO

[NameGoesHere1066]

who do you think would be able to withstand a psychological attack?

[khelben1979]

My vote went for Donatello. He's the smartest of the TMNT characters(in my opinion) and that also affects he's ability to fight good.

Leonardo is good too, but he's a bit too aggressive. As long as he have the swords he's kind of unbeatable of the 4 turtles but without them he's useless.

[triplexxx]

who do you think would be able to withstand a psychological attack?I think they could all do just fine in that, they did so in Bad Day.

[Hero]

I guess it depends on the psychological attack and which foe is doing the attack. :)

[DonatelloDomeHead31]

I chose Donatello but my defense comes from the movies. He made his fights funny with his wooden bo. Mainly seen in the 3rd movie and in the 2nd one where he would prepare to fight it like a pool cue.

[Jelly Bean]

all this seems to be about the turtles from the 4KIDS cartoon. But how would you rate the turtles fighting abilites in the 80's toon from strongest to weakest?

[NameGoesHere1066]

suprisingly, Donatello seemed to be the best fighter in the orginal cartoon. :o

[Jelly Bean]

why is that suprising? :-?

[NameGoesHere1066]

because Donatello has this reputation of being the least dedicated fighter of the group because he spends all his time messing with his gadgets. But in the old toon he was both the tech guy and the shown to be one of the best fighters. :)

[Evenstar227]

This is from the NT, but I'd like to point out that Leo was the only one to defeat the invisible Foot Tech Ninja on his own, with no fancy gadgets. He turned his mask around and used other senses to defeat them. Don used his infrared (?) goggles, and even Raph needed some spray paint. Granted, I've only seen the first season so far, so I don't know how their skills develop over time, but I think that's a point in Leo's favor.

Also from NT: I wonder why Leo asked for help defeating, like, 3 or 4 Foot ninja in the first episode, but by the end of season one took on 13 Foot by himself, and won? Had he really improved that much, or what?

[Sage Ninja]

I thonk Donatello was portrayed as the one of the best fighters because of the nature of his weapon. The animators had the most freedom to use him in contact fights because Leonado had swords, Raphal had sia, and Mike had evil dangerous nunchucks and then a wimpy grappling hook. And what kind of content fighting can you do with a string on a hook.

[superturtle]

ure talking bout the old version then im going with don com on in this one episode he beated the other 3 turtles in trainning at the same time