Your ideal TMNT design?

[Fledermaus]

Now, I just want to make this clear that this is not a debate on the “right” and “wrong” turtle design, since heck this is one of those topics. This is really a study on my part, as I'm at a crossroads in my turtle designs and want to hear what you guys think: What is the best version of the ninja turtles you have ever seen? The ideal version, either by yours or another’s design. Why?

Maybe you just happen to like a certain style. A particular artist’s take. Whatever. It's all cool. Just share your opinions. Try and say what specifically makes something “good.” If not, that’s fine, too. If you can’t put into words why you like a certain look, then try and use pictures to show what you mean, though sparingly. I don’t mean for this to be an ongoing picture thread, but a discussion.

Chat away! Don't be shy! Respect everyone's vision, no matter how crazy. Defend your positions, don't make fun of another's, etc. etc.

[Ra]

...wasn't there a thread like this? *shrugs* Ah well...

I like them all, but I seem to be drawn to the New Toon more than most. If they just made the shells a bit smaller, I'd think they'd be perfect :) As for why...they look darker, they look like they can take on anyone or anything that challenges them, and they are pretty much the first version of them I have ever seen, so my brain thinks "THESE are the real Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles"

Only later did I find out there were many, many, many, many more versions than I realized (about ten *chuckles*)

[TheShowstoppa]

I too, am completely fond of the new cartoon look. They just look like they actually have been training for 15 years, plus they just look badass and not so dammed tooney! Even though they are still shorter than humans, they still have the build and the physiche of athletes.

However, I will also make a point to state that I still completely love the looks of the turtles in movies 1 and 2. The head animatronics for the second movie just appealed to me more in that they could show more emotion. Take, for instance, at the beginning when they jump up before the opening credits... they look extremely pissed, but later on in April's appartment, they look totally happy. Great job in showing range of character and emotion with those animatronics! (However, the first movie is still the best, by far!) I can't wait, however, to see the look of them officially for the new movie!

Now, not to jump too far off topic, but let's also talk about our favorite looks of the Shredder too! I personally think that the new show (first season mainly!) looks amazing! He's so much more badass than he was in the old show (except for maybe the first season).

I also like the first movie Shredder because it portrays a cold hearted ninja leader at his finest. Plus, he's not afraid to fight the Turtles one on one or 4 on 1. That particular fight scene on the rooftop with the turtles in the first movie really defined what Shredder should be! I'm glad they went in that same direction with the new show!

However, I totally despise the look of Shredder in Next Mutation. If they never make him look like that ever again, it would be fine with me!

[Buslady]

There's alot of versions I really like. 'course movie 1 designs are my fave, and new toon.
I really dig Tigerfog's; his art shows so much emotion in that old Raph's eye..can't help NOT to like it.

Ideally I like a look similar to the movies, respectable amount of muscle that makes them look both strong and able to do all those moves. I like a little realism...I mean, tails. Turtles have tails, boys have longer tails than what's drawn in the comics. Ok so i think they're cute...:P
And I like the skin texture of the movies, they were all so different that you can tell them apart if they didn't have their masks. Different tones, mottling, spotting, all that...

in the new toon design, i agree on the shells. well, maybe they are box turtles cause the shell's REALLY domed. They're supposedly pond turtles and should have a lower profile shell .

[zkarlette]

I really like the New toon style , I think thats my fav

[trexmaster]

Old toon. The new turtles don't even have frickin' pupils in their eyes!

[TheShowstoppa]

Old toon. The new turtles don't even have frickin' pupils in their eyes!

That's because the comics didn't have pupils. It makes them look more brooding, more badass.

[Buslady]

Old toon. The new turtles don't even have frickin' pupils in their eyes!

They're not supposed to look like little pansies! Or little inflatable characters like Peter called them. heh...

you see pupils when they dont ear their masks, when theyre 'off duty'. no eyes make em look mean and scary...it works

[Shreddette]

I'll have to say old toon. That's the one I fell in love with in the first place, and I am one of those stuck-in-her-ways kinda old hags :lol:
I appreciate the other styles though. The no-pupils thing I couldn't get over at first for the new toon but it suits them really, for what they are supposed to be originally.

I couldn't get myself to like the other Shredder versions all that much. I'll have to read the comics though to find out, since the art in there is actually not that bad. I used to hate it though cause I was much more picky about art style when I was younger. I've actually loosened up, surprisingly...

It does annoy me that old toon Shredder was not as hardass as he could've been, I didn't care back then so much though, I mean he IS a badass, it's just the writers were making it too child friendly 'cause parents got all up in arms after seeing the first season's violence. :roll:

I've always liked Old Toon Saki, I love his outfit and his eyes are so expressive. I've always been attracted to that. Makes him mysterious and they had to work on his eyes the most to put accross his emotions, thus I find his eyes magnificent.

Of course I guess I have always been more of an eye person... maybe because of him? Who knows.

[JohnTahu]

I like the new design from the new series.
They just rock.
And they look the most Ninja.
The old ones really looked like happy colorfull cartoon toons.
Now the TMNT really look like Ninja's.

[Serp]

I really like the Red Sky seasons look of the Turtles.

and Movie one and two.

[lilonardo]

Original Toon!
Heroes in a half shell, Turtle Power!

[Masked Ninja]

I do like the new toon style, but I think the perfect blend might be new toon + first movie. Maybe not quite so angular as the new toon, but with the white eyes (when they have their masks on, of course) and such. And I never really liked the mottled spots on the costumes, but that was pretty much all I could complain about.

I'm still trying to find my ideal Turtle style for when I draw them. Right now it has really heavy NT influence, but I'd like to see if I can't add a little more of my own design. Fledermaus' stuff is really nice; I hope to be able to get that same fluidity into my sketching someday. And I also appreciate Buslady's attention to actual turtle physiology.

EDIT: I also want to note that I do adore the cuteness of the old Turtles, but if I were to, say, write my own comic... I'd use designs that actually look able to kick trash.

[Katie]

I have to say I tend to like a more NT/Movie look as well. To me, the OT style is just a bit too soft. I like my turtles dynamic, full of energy, ready to leap out at you...but still have a calm dignity about them :)

[Weapon X]

Yeah movie(first) design is my favorite, it takes from both Mirage and OT worlds, and just the right stuff too, mainly just the colored bandannas from the OT for more uniqueness between them, well their looks at least. The OT style was good for a cartoon, but not for a real vision of ass kicking TMNT. First movie TMNT were really gritty looking as well as somewhat friendly.

[Fledermaus]

That's a neat way of putting it, Kat... I'll keep that in mind.;)

Interesting... I'm not terribly fond of the movie designs. They were better than the OT designs, shell yes, but... They didn't really look like turtles to me, aside from their shells. Just creepy alien-type things. *shrugs*

Now, since I've backed out of here for a while, I'm gonna finally get this outta my system...

I'm going to copy what I posted in some other thread...

"I like the pronounced pond turtle beak, myself.

My ideal turtle head would look as turtle as it could look (pond turtle, NOT sea turtle), as reptilian and animal as possible, to maintain that element of wild, mutated freak, and at the same time be fully capable of expressing emotion and speech. That is, they shouldn't look human, but should definitely have the right element of humanity in them that makes them visually relatable: the perfect mutant hybrid."

After drawing different versions of the turtles, some that looked very turtle, others that had a sleek, very ninja, almost feline look--I got to see that if there is too much of a reptile quality, you lose that fluid, flexible, nimbleness that ninjas require. Stumpy-ness may look massive, but it's hard, at least for me, to see that as being ninja. True, turtles aren't very graceful, in reality. But not only are these guys turtles, they're ninjas too. To me, that's always been one of the most important elements.

Also, in my turtle studies, I've found that you get a really interesting effect when you actually make the TMNT look like turtles. They look wild, exotic-- like true freaks. Thing is, it's hard to emphasize this freakish mutant quality without making them lose their… the word I’m searching for probably doesn’t exist in this language. I do like the wild look. The “real turtle” look. But I don't like how it tends to cut off any "window" to their souls. If I draw the eyes like a real turtle's eyes--yeah, it's intimidating, cool even. But to me, expression is very important in any character design--turtle, human, chair. Koosh ball. Soul is crucial.

(The word I’m searching for, but one I am not sure exists in the English language, means able to relate to/identify with. Doesn’t necessarily mean affable or friendly-looking. The word I want to use is “relatable” even though it’s not a word. English language buffs help me out. Something that means, “I can connect to this person.” A word, like empathy, but not quite. Sorry if I’m not making any sense.:ohwell: )

To sum it up, my favorite look typically falls into the "sleek" design category, with enough mutated turtleness to them. From their faces to their build, the turtles may look powerful, but must also be graceful. Strong enough to burst through a wall of bricks, but agile. This preference is pending, as I am currently going through a bunch of different turtle designs.

So my current challenge is coming up with a design that looks reptilian--turtle reptilian, not crocodile, or raptor, fish or bald eagle--and maintain a level of visual empathy from us humans. This is the question that bothers me. Let's face it: the turtles are mutant freaks. Should we find them visually appealing or not?

[Katie]

This is the question that bothers me. Let's face it: the turtles are mutant freaks. Should we find them visually appealing or not?


I do not think they have to be terribly human-like to be visually appealing. I am not a raging fan girl, though. I tend to appreciate the context of the work as much as the design of the turtle.

I mean....who REALLY knows what an anthropomorphic Turtle would look like. More reptilian? Great! More human? well, that's good too :)
Some of the coolest Turtle fan works i have seen were VERY turtle like, but you could still relate to the scene and the expressions just fine :)

[Fledermaus]

I do not think they have to be terribly human-like to be visually appealing. I am not a raging fan girl, though. I tend to appreciate the context of the work as much as the design of the turtle.

I mean....who REALLY knows what an anthropomorphic Turtle would look like. More reptilian? Great! More human? well, that's good too :)
Some of the coolest Turtle fan works i have seen were VERY turtle like, but you could still relate to the scene and the expressions just fine :)

Please show me said fan works. I would be very interested.:)

What I meant by TURTLE-reptilian appearance was...

http://www.herpnet.net/Iowa-Herpetology/images/turtles/False_Map_turtle_HeadLarge.jpg

I had some good pond turtle pics, but I lost the URLS for those. Anyways, I started off drawing actual turtle heads, then tweaking them from there. Turtles have certain head proportions that... for one thing, the eyes kind of stick out--but not like a frog. The nose on this turtle, and pond turtles, goes up, kind of like a snout. And the noses are, as you can see, in line with the top of the skull--cranium. Forgive me for my poor terminology. For some species, I found that there's this cool wrinkle effect under the eyes, gives for a very tough, leathery appearance, while at the same time can be used for expressive purposes.

I just recently came up with a design that I think captures some of these essential turtle qualities (not generic reptile--I'm trying to get away from that)--I'm going for scary, but expressive. So, I dunno... I think this could be good. When I'm done, they won't look human. They will look wild, mutated, dangerous--even cold. And yet... sentient, capable of deep thought and expression. In real life, I think giant turtles would look pretty fierce, scary, disturbing... Frrreaks.

[Katie]

I'll have to try and find those URL's for ya.

As for the reptilian/humanistic characteristics, you gotta look at them and really look at turtles/reptile. Their physiology is going to have to me more on the human side for them to even move the way they do.

Reptiles' limbs are situated perpendictular to their bodies, while most mammals are not. this is why reptiles...and you can see it more in Lizards than turtles obviously...have kind of a swagger when they walk.

Also as far as facial features go, think about the human face. Our lips have to be pretty flexible and able to be controlled in order for us to speak. it is a feature that no other species has. If they had reptilian lips/mouths, speach would be impossible. Same with nasal cavity....the way we control air has alot to do with us being able to talk. I think to do a truely scientific representation of a mutated species like the turtles, you'd have to take into an account all the physiological traits that would allow the TMNT to move and speak and do all the things they do, while still keeping their unique reptilian features.

It's quite a project.

[Sewer Bull]

Please show me said fan works. I would be very interested.:)

Don't you think Sabacooza's turtles (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=12618) look very reptilian?

[Seurat]

What can I say? I'm nostalgic. I loved the old toon turtles the best in all ways, including visually. I was so bummed when Red Sky began and the turtles had those tougher-looking eyes (Proof that you don't need to be pupil-less to look tough, folks!). I'm the type who loves comedy more than action and wit more than violence, and I believe my preference in artistic style reflects that.

[Katie]

Don't you think Sabacooza's turtles (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=12618) look very reptilian?


*still lookin for those URL's*

I agree. Sabacooza does very nice work and they have a reptilian look about them.

Also...I am but a mere herpetoculturist and my speciality is geckos. Buslady is teh resident turtle expert :) .....i remember a thread in the forums at one time...and not too terribly long ago...where we were discussing turtle anatomy and, if I remember right, there were alot of anatomical drawings of real turtles that came out of it...like skeletal structure and whatnot...if you are interested Fled.

[Masked Ninja]

That would be the problem... the perfect balance between reptile/human, and scary/approachable. I think I'll have a great time following this discussion.

[Katie]

There is a very turtley Ninja turtle from the main site's Fan art Gallery. But I cannot get the link to work :( {I found it by Googling Ninja Turtle Calvert} Anyway I like this guy's look.

But as you can see, he would probably not be a very agile ninja...

[Weapon X]

Here yah go.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a98/BatManBlade/dmacalvert.jpg

[Jester]

Too Turtley...next! :P

[Katie]

Thanks Weapon X!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't quite know what was wrong :ohwell:

Anyway, yeah, he's very turtley....but accurate in the sense that anatomically this is how a bipedal....assuming a turtle could walk upright...would look. Check out his arms. See what I mean about how the limbs are situated?

get to reptilian and movement is a whole new ballpark :)

[Buslady]

EEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!! CUTE LITTLE FALSE MAPPIE!!!!!!!! these are good for pets, they stay SMALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.herpnet.net/Iowa-Herpetology/images/turtles/False_Map_turtle_HeadLarge.jpg

I like to see how chelonian you can make a TMNT. I'm trying to design a primitve looking mutant turtle based on my wood turtles, compelte with their shell colors and red stripes and thick scales on their arms and legs...they look funny though...
If ya really wanna get into it, a turtle can not support their bodies on their back legs, they look like the could but they're not built to stand on two legs. (there is a box turtle who's an exception, she'll balance on her legs for a treat...) their pelvic girdle is fused to their shell and can't move, so I'd like to see how a mutant's skeletal structure changes over time to a moveable, less rigid pelvis enabling them to walk.

[Sage Ninja]

My favorite design would have to be Red Sky Classic turtle, followed closley by New Toon. I loved the new design they had on the turtles with the wider bandanna eye holes of the Red Sky. It was just about the collest thing about the Red Sky, plus they looked tougher and less cutsey and lost that "fluffy" look that Laird was bitching about.

I also love the look of the new toon they look so cool and so smoothly animated, and I love how graceful they are drawn when they are doing those athletic feats. I escpecially love the way their heads are drawn, Their cheeks look very proportianal to their faces and don't look overly cartoonish. Although theuir are times when the turtles make some pretty ugly facial expressions, yikes. And even though I love the new toons designs I think at times they look way too grotessically muscular. I'm all for buff warrior turtles but allot of times their physiques don't look like they belong to that of a 15/16 year old. They seriuosly have they bodies of 25 year olds.

I think thats why I like classic cartoon turtles physiques better, they where muscular and defenantly warrior/athlet looking, but they didn't look like they freaky body buliders and their physiques looked more appropriate for a teenager to have, albeit a warrior teenagers.

[Fledermaus]

Hmmm... Yes, I have seen such turtle designs. But the look I'm going for is distinctly pond turtle. The turtle design Weapon X and Katie were thinking of... the nose... looks like typical turtle nose, which isn't necessarily pond turtle. It is funny, tho.:lol:

http://www.werc.usgs.gov/fieldguide/images/clm1.jpg

http://www.mister-toad.com/photos/turtle/Emys_marmorata.jpg

The link below shows the mouth of a western pond turtle (he looks so happy)
http://iep.water.ca.gov/suisun/photos/wildlife/turtle.JPG

Sabacooza's work is great. It's his style, and I don't want to criticize it too much because I find it grossly interesting.:D His turtles are very tough, very leathery and certainly reptilian-looking. However... that is, it is in my opinion... Ah, skip it. He's got a neat style, but I'm just not going for that look.

For this particular version of the turtles I'm working on, I'm still thinking of designs where the nose protrudes like a pond turtle's. As far as body design goes, I'd like to keep it mostly anthropomorphic, although to compensate for a strong, but agile, ninja build, I'm giving heavier, grittier textures to the skin--and especially encorporating the use of folds and wrinkles.

[Garou]

Sabacooza has a unique style indeed and I'd prefer her, what is it, computer graphic? Well, not sure, but I like those better than the ones from the original movies.

For toon animation style, I'd go with the New Toon style, though I'd sometimes wish it to be a tan different. Their faces have a lot of sharp edges, that I'm not too fond of.

The style of Masked Ninja and TigerFog are the ones I like the most (and no, I'm not paid for saying this, I mean it :lol: ). They are more fluent than the NT figures...

And I agree, the OT was very cute looking, but there were simply too many drawing mistakes for me. And I'm not talking about switching colors and such, I mean their faces. They were way too much rubber like, they could twist and turn in all directions - or so it looked like...

[Masked Ninja]

:toops:

Thanks for bein' nice. The reason my style is more "fluid" than the new toon is because I agree with you: It's a good style, but a tad too pointy. But I intend to play around with some different styles and incorporate them into my own so it's not TOO obviously derived from the NT.

And I agree on the OT... cute and stuff, but they really weren't great at moving the designs around. I keep getting the impression of "Model sheets? What's that?" when I watch the OT. And the color mixups... ergh. But the style itself is adorable.

[Fledermaus]

NT is pointy because most of the actual character animation is NOT hand-drawn, if my memory is correct. It's some kinda cel-computery thing, to speed up the process. I think I read about it way early on from somewhere, before the show came out. The characters are actually rough 3-d models that are rendered in the final version as 2-d. At any rate, there were some commercials years ago (turtle bloopers) that showed the characters in their rough 3-d forms.

[VaughnMichael]

NT is pointy because most of the actual character animation is NOT hand-drawn, if my memory is correct. It's some kinda cel-computery thing, to speed up the process. I think I read about it way early on from somewhere, before the show came out. The characters are actually rough 3-d models that are rendered in the final version as 2-d. At any rate, there were some commercials years ago (turtle bloopers) that showed the characters in their rough 3-d forms.
what! the new show is not hand drawn....ugh it's the end of the world as we know it! heh just kidding thats pretty cool actully cause I could have sworn it was...
-Putrescent

[Fledermaus]

what! the new show is not hand drawn....ugh it's the end of the world as we know it! heh just kidding thats pretty cool actully cause I could have sworn it was...
-Putrescent

It's kinda hard to tell, since this kind of animation is Dongwoo's specialty. They use this medium on a lot of their work--although they are capable of some fine hand-drawn animation (which they probably use in conjunction with the computer models). I've seen clips of short films they've done. It can be very very beautiful, the same quality as excellent hand-drawn animation--but with a unique, exotic feel. If Korea really wants to create an animation "identity", as America has its Disney style and Japan has its anime, this or flash could be Korea's future. That is, if they lose their evil yangban management. (A.F.R.I.C.A. animation--wow:o .) But that was an art piece the studio spent lots of time and resources on--not like american shows, where you must make everything as quickly as possible.

[Sage Ninja]

I'm old school I like cell animation, but I'm not entirely against 3D. At any rate I think I love the way the new toon draws the turtles heads and faces. They are so well done, but there are times when the turtles make some really freaky/scarey facial expressions. Like in the theme song when they are doing close ups of the boys faces:o

[Masked Ninja]

Hmm, that would explain how they're able to constantly pull off difficult shots that would take time to figure out by hand. I noticed their use of 3D models in the theme song... when Don drives up in the Sewer Slider. While the craft (which is also 3D; you can tell by the shading) is rocking, Don is very obviously 3D. When it levels out and he flashes you the thumbs-up, he's 2D again.

I wonder if they just use the 3D models for reference and trace or pattern the action after their 3D mockup (because their style has shifted ever-so-slightly since the series began... would that happen with 3D models?) Or perhaps it is 3D, but still looks hand-drawn enough because they cel-shade it by hand? It makes me want to look at concept art/ progression reels all over again for TMNT, but I doubt I'll ever see anything like that. :(

I don't mind 3D when it's not used just to be flashy (as it would be here...they almost try to disguise it as 2D), but I'm always an old-school, hand-drawn animation fan. They can use the compy to color it, but it starts out with a pencil and paper. :D

[Buslady]

hec i kinda wish they'd keep em 3-d, might look cooler..i dunno...maybe a test episode and get fan's reactions...

[Masked Ninja]

I haven't been able to catch those TMNT shorts with the 3D because the 4Kids website hates me and the browser window always closes itself when I try to play any of the movies. Anyone know somewhere else I could watch 'em? I'm interested now in seeing what they look like, especially in motion.

[Sage Ninja]

hec i kinda wish they'd keep em 3-d, might look cooler..i dunno...maybe a test episode and get fan's reactions...

ack!! Hell No!!!:x I would hate that. keep the turtles as they are. I really can't stand computer graphic characters:evil: . I don't mind so much when it is for back ground or to improve action scenes but keep them as they are! If this series had neen computer graphic animation I would not have given this newer version of TMNT the time of day.

[VaughnMichael]

ack!! Hell No!!!:x I would hate that. keep the turtles as they are. I really can't stand computer graphic characters:evil: . I don't mind so much when it is for back ground or to improve action scenes but keep them as they are! If this series had neen computer graphic animation I would not have given this newer version of TMNT the time of day.
likewize and thats why they changed there minds about the show being in computer animation....I'm really not looking forward to the new movie....
-Putrescent

[Dragnskull]

well, i grew up on the oldschool cartoon style, so i guess im used to the "frog" look

i do however like them to have there beaks a bit pointier, gives them more of a turtle look, battlescars, a large but flat shell, not too round. tigerfog's art is a great match to how i like my turtles, i can totaly see them looking that way after they grew up.