plot holes???

[Krangstein]

I am wondering about some thing. How could Shredder/Saki make the Shredder-mutants from his DNA in Return to NY if he was an Utrom? That doesnt make sense. And how could the Guardian think Leonardo killed Shredder in Return to NY? The guirdian should know the Shredder is an Utrom and that taking of his head wouldn't kill him???

[Utrom]

Well, since it was revealed that the Foot Mystics had worked for the original Shredder, and that Ch’rell "inherited" them from the original, it is possible that Shredder had somehow obtained DNA from the original shredder. However, the likelihood of this scenario is not very high and Shredder most likely just created mutations that were not from his own DNA. How hard would it be to slap some armor on some mutants?

And, obviously, the mutants from "Notes from the Underground" were simply experiments that served in the development of the Shredder clones. It is possible that the clones were made from a mixture of Shredder's Utrom DNA and other creatures, but I can't really see what purpose that would serve. The "clones" may have also existed to facilitate Shredder in his facade of being human as many of his underlings like Hun were apparently not aware that he was, in fact, an Utrom. And I can't really remember if the guardians ever explicitly stated that they thought Shredder was destroyed, but perhaps the Utroms may have never told them that Shredder was an Utrom to begin with.

As a fan, it's all just my own speculation in an attempt to cover up the plot holes, so feel free to develop your own theories.

[Krangstein]

Well, since it was revealed that the Foot Mystics had worked for the original Shredder, and that Ch’rell "inherited" them from the original, it is possible that Shredder had somehow obtained DNA from the original shredder. However, the likelihood of this scenario is not very high and Shredder most likely just created mutations that were not from his own DNA. How hard would it be to slap some armor on some mutants?

And, obviously, the mutants from "Notes from the Underground" were simply experiments that served in the development of the Shredder clones. It is possible that the clones were made from a mixture of Shredder's Utrom DNA and other creatures, but I can't really see what purpose that would serve. The "clones" may have also existed to facilitate Shredder in his facade of being human as many of his underlings like Hun were apparently not aware that he was, in fact, an Utrom. And I can't really remember if the guardians ever explicitly stated that they thought Shredder was destroyed, but perhaps the Utroms may have never told them that Shredder was an Utrom to begin with.

As a fan, it's all just my own speculation in an attempt to cover up the plot holes, so feel free to develop your own theories.

In Return to NY, Part 3, after Leonardo "kills" Shredder, one of the Guirdian says: They've done it, they've defeated the Shredder, incredible!!! He should have known better. Also, in Search for Splinter, it is made clear that the Utrom concil Trio believes Shredder is dead. Now if The Utroms never told The guirdians that shredder was an Utrom, which is very unlikely, they would have known them selves that chopping of his head wouldn't kill him. Major plot hole .

[Spitfire]

The clones didn't have to be clones of Shredder. They just had his gear on. They could have cloned anyone who works for the foot. Or anyone in general, they just put the gear on them. The guardians might not have known Shredder was an Uthrom, and if they didn't when they told the concil they could have mis-informed them.

Mainly I see it as he said "Defeated" Not "Killed, destoryed, vanquished, finished" Or said "The Shredder has parished" So maybe they just saw him as in a postion where he could cause no more harm to them.

[Krangstein]

The clones didn't have to be clones of Shredder. They just had his gear on. They could have cloned anyone who works for the foot. Or anyone in general, they just put the gear on them. The guardians might not have known Shredder was an Uthrom, and if they didn't when they told the concil they could have mis-informed them.

Mainly I see it as he said "Defeated" Not "Killed, destoryed, vanquished, finished" Or said "The Shredder has parished" So maybe they just saw him as in a postion where he could cause no more harm to them.

The point of the Shredder clones was to re-live the original comic book story arch Return to NY. Of course in the comics Shredder wasn't an Utrom. I wonder if the writers of the series never considered that this cloning thing might be a problem.

[Toonami Tom]

Maybe making him an utrom was a last minute choice, and they didn't want to delete the work they put into having the Shredder clones in the toon. The Shredder clones are supposedly failed attempts at making a perfect Saki clone, right? Or am I wrong about that?

Edit: I just wanted to add, the claw hands Shredder clone is probably still alive. He only fell a few feet, I think on top of Hun. As for the other 2, they were blown up in a falling elevator crash. They probably didn't survive.

[Jester]

The clones didn't have to be clones of Shredder. They just had his gear on. They could have cloned anyone who works for the foot. Or anyone in general, they just put the gear on them. The guardians might not have known Shredder was an Uthrom, and if they didn't when they told the concil they could have mis-informed them.

Mainly I see it as he said "Defeated" Not "Killed, destoryed, vanquished, finished" Or said "The Shredder has parished" So maybe they just saw him as in a postion where he could cause no more harm to them.
Maybe, they though the fact that Shredder had been "decapitated" would put a kink in him maintaining a crime syndicate like the Foot. I mean a man just can't come back from that. I wonder how that was explained to Hun. Did he even know that Shredder was "killed" by Leonardo? Another question is did Saki just claim that Yoshi worked for the utroms or did he know it as fact, considering the season 4 episode "Tale of master Yoshi"?

[Krangstein]

Maybe making him an utrom was a last minute choice, and they didn't want to delete the work they put into having the Shredder clones in the toon. The Shredder clones are supposedly failed attempts at making a perfect Saki clone, right? Or am I wrong about that?

Edit: I just wanted to add, the claw hands Shredder clone is probably still alive. He only fell a few feet, I think on top of Hun. As for the other 2, they were blown up in a falling elevator crash. They probably didn't survive.

I really doubt that making Shredder an Utrom was a last minute choice. The writers put far too much thought and effort in the scripts to come up with last minute ideas that would overshadow previous writing. My guess is that they thought we fans wouldnt ask so many questions :)

[Gary]

When did the guardians tell the council how Shredder was defeated, specifically that he was decapitated? They're probably a little more trustworthy and don't demand proof of something. A simple "Yes, I saw it happen" might have done the job.

I don't remember very well, but were the clones actually made from shredder DNA, or is it assumed because they're "clones?" Maybe they just called them that because they were made in a test tube and hiven his armor. I don't recall shredder having claws, four arms, or being that small.

[Krangstein]

When did the guardians tell the council how Shredder was defeated, specifically that he was decapitated? They're probably a little more trustworthy and don't demand proof of something. A simple "Yes, I saw it happen" might have done the job.

I don't remember very well, but were the clones actually made from shredder DNA, or is it assumed because they're "clones?" Maybe they just called them that because they were made in a test tube and hiven his armor. I don't recall shredder having claws, four arms, or being that small.

No but we just asume it cause they are called Shredder clones in the episode and in the comics they are made from Saki DNA.

[Utrom]

I feel that the Shredder "clones" mainly served to deter Shredder's subordinates, such as Hun, from the suspicion that he was an Utrom. There is no evidence that the guardians were aware of Shredder being an Utrom, and this information was probably not given to them for the same reason it was not given to Hun. For Hun, the Utroms are the enemies. For the guardians, Shredder is the enemy. By keeping this information from those beneath them, both Shredder and the Utroms have simplified things for their subordinates. Neither the guardians nor Hun are forced to decide whose side is right. They never have to decide which side is good and which side is evil as their perspective has been made limited.

[Jester]

Very good point, Utrom. Shredder being a utrom had to be a day one thing, you see in early episodes where he has metalic wrists and can hold the sword of Tengu without the glove, free of pain.

[Utrom]

Very good point, Utrom. Shredder being a utrom had to be a day one thing, you see in early episodes where he has metalic wrists and can hold the sword of Tengu without the glove, free of pain.

I believe that I've read interviews with Peter Laird in which he actually stated that they had planned on making Shredder an Utrom from the very first episode. He also pointed out that several allusions were made to him being an Utrom even in the earlier episodes as you have pointed out.

[Gary]

I wonder what the armor thing he got out of the water was for a long time. then I watched it again and noticed it as an utrom suit, and that it was proof that the utroms had followed him to new york. I loved how the series made it so deep that early in the first season.

[Krangstein]

Yeh, looking back on the first season it is obvious that they had decided Shredder was supposed to be an Utrom from the beginning. I just can't understand why they had to make him drink though.

[Utrom]

Found the interview with Peter Laird in which he confims that it had been planned to make Shredder an Utrom from the very beginning.

OK, here goes, 1)First thing I have to ask about. Shredder being an Utrom. Was this always the case, or did it come about as a surprise discussion for Season 2?

That concept was part of the original planning since we started working on Season 1, and careful watching of Season 1 episodes will reveal clues that show we had this planned all along.

http://www.twelveoclock.net/Forum/showthread.php?t=854

(Question is towards the bottom of the page, under subheading "Interview 5")

[Krangstein]

Found the interview with Peter Laird in which he confims that it had been planned to make Shredder an Utrom from the very beginning.



http://www.twelveoclock.net/Forum/showthread.php?t=854

(Question is towards the bottom of the page, under subheading "Interview 5")

Thanx. Very informative.

[Aztec General]

According to the official site the "Shredder clones" from "Return to New York" were not clones of Saki even in the comics. They were Shredder Elite who allowed themselves to be experimented on in order to resurrect Saki. You can read the synopsis below (from Vol. 1 #20 and Vol. 1 #21 respectively).

"On the final double page spread we get our first look at Shredder's Elite Guard: three monstrously mutated ninja warriors decked out in Shredder's gear!"

"The Shredder explains that, through ancient practices, the Foot were able to take the pieces of his body that were blown to bits in TMNT #1 and bring him back to life by utilizing a type of worm that learns from and grows into what it eats. These worms form a colony of cels that mutate into an individual. The Shredder Elite were the first three experiments with the worms, and on the fourth attempt, the Clan allowed the worms to feed on the Shredder, thus reincarnating him... his lust for vengeance and his hatred for the Turtles stronger than before."

[Krangstein]

The Guirdians did know that Shredder was an Utrom, for sure. Remember in Secret Origin Part 2, they Turtles are about to return to their time, but they ask Mortu what he was about to say before about Shredder. Mortu says: Shredder is an.... then the Turtles disappear. One of the Guirdians was holding Mortu when he staded Shredder was an Utrom. That's proof enough for me.

[jeff the cheff]

The Guirdians did know that Shredder was an Utrom, for sure. Remember in Secret Origin Part 2, they Turtles are about to return to their time, but they ask Mortu what he was about to say before about Shredder. Mortu says: Shredder is an.... then the Turtles disappear. One of the Guirdians was holding Mortu when he staded Shredder was an Utrom. That's proof enough for me.

Yea but it never showed the gaurdian's reaction to Mortu saying this. He could have been shocked if he never knew this, but we didn't get to see it.

And the Utroms could have been keeping it a secret up until this point.

[TheShowstoppa]

Okay, you also have to remember that this was a dream world that they went to in order to view the Utrom's past. Just because Mortu said it there doesn't mean that the Guardian knew it to be true, and further more, they would have never remembered since it had already happened. You can't change the past - especially in a recreated history sequence.

Yes, I have gone back and noticed the signs that Shredder was an utrom. They're very subtle, but you can catch them if you pay attention.

Also, Splinter was the one who said that Shredder accused him of working for his enemies. The only glimpse you see of Splinter even knowing that he did was in "Tale of Yoshi" when Splinter was taken into the TCRI building. Even then, he hadn't quite developed his little rat brain enough to comprehend something. I don't think that Splinter ever fully knew that Yoshi was a guardian until Season 2. Then... Season 3 was the passing of the torch. Splinter is now a guardian. Before that... Like I have said: He knew very little to nothing at all.

The only thing that I can see that slightly confuses me is how Hun didn't know that Shredder was defeated on top of the foot HQ that night. Further more, I don't understand how Karai could have known he was an utrom if he didn't. Yes, Karai was raised as Saki's daughter, eventually telling her that would be nothing shy of ordinary, but I just don't get why Hun didn't know. In Exodus, he was so shocked to see it, but then in Season 4, he continued on, working from the teachings of his "master" even though he had been kinda betrayed by him.


Holy Crap... It's a kid's TV show, and I'm getting all technical with it... Eh.. you're only young once...

[Krangstein]

Okay, you also have to remember that this was a dream world that they went to in order to view the Utrom's past. Just because Mortu said it there doesn't mean that the Guardian knew it to be true, and further more, they would have never remembered since it had already happened. You can't change the past - especially in a recreated history sequence.

Yes, I have gone back and noticed the signs that Shredder was an utrom. They're very subtle, but you can catch them if you pay attention.

Also, Splinter was the one who said that Shredder accused him of working for his enemies. The only glimpse you see of Splinter even knowing that he did was in "Tale of Yoshi" when Splinter was taken into the TCRI building. Even then, he hadn't quite developed his little rat brain enough to comprehend something. I don't think that Splinter ever fully knew that Yoshi was a guardian until Season 2. Then... Season 3 was the passing of the torch. Splinter is now a guardian. Before that... Like I have said: He knew very little to nothing at all.

The only thing that I can see that slightly confuses me is how Hun didn't know that Shredder was defeated on top of the foot HQ that night. Further more, I don't understand how Karai could have known he was an utrom if he didn't. Yes, Karai was raised as Saki's daughter, eventually telling her that would be nothing shy of ordinary, but I just don't get why Hun didn't know. In Exodus, he was so shocked to see it, but then in Season 4, he continued on, working from the teachings of his "master" even though he had been kinda betrayed by him.


Holy Crap... It's a kid's TV show, and I'm getting all technical with it... Eh.. you're only young once...

Hehe. Very good points though. I always enjoy reading your posts.

[VaughnMichael]

The Guirdians did know that Shredder was an Utrom, for sure. Remember in Secret Origin Part 2, they Turtles are about to return to their time, but they ask Mortu what he was about to say before about Shredder. Mortu says: Shredder is an.... then the Turtles disappear. One of the Guirdians was holding Mortu when he staded Shredder was an Utrom. That's proof enough for me.
I was actully shocked that the guardians hadn't been at the trial.

[ToTheNines]

Sorry to necro post. But I just watched season one, and the fact that the Utroms think Shredder is dead after getting the head of his exo chopped off is killing me, someone use some fan logic to help me out lol

Mainly I see it as he said "Defeated" Not "Killed, destoryed, vanquished, finished" Or said "The Shredder has parished" So maybe they just saw him as in a postion where he could cause no more harm to them.

But in Search For Splinter they say "you have reported the Shredder destroyed".

[Cipher]

That's a killer, and a little bit baffling, since the writers clearly intended Shredder to be an Utrom from square one. Here's how I justify it:

Only the guardians saw Shredder get beheaded. The guardians were human, so perhaps they weren't clued in to the fact that Shredder was an Utrom as well, but were merely informed that he was an enemy of the Utroms. When they saw Leo take him out for all they knew he was dead, and that's what they reported to the Utrom high-ups. The Utroms didn't ask for the exact details of his death.

It's a stretch, but that's really the only way it makes sense.

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, not bad. Other theories that I had were

-The Utrom knew he wasn't dead but figured he would lay low for a while like he does after "defeat". And they knew that the transmat was almost complete so they didn't worry about it.

(this next one sucks)
- The exo-suits that they use might loose power after getting decapitated, and if Shredder landed on his belly, he couldn't get out. But Shredder was smart and modified his suit to have the battery elsewhere.

[Tuxedo Moroboshi]

Honestly, I just think the Guardians said that Shredder was killed and left it at that. From their point of view, that may have very well been the case, and the Utroms trusted the information without feeling the need to ask how Shredder was killed.

[ToTheNines]

Honestly, I just think the Guardians said that Shredder was killed and left it at that. From their point of view, that may have very well been the case, and the Utroms trusted the information without feeling the need to ask how Shredder was killed.

That seems too lazy for the Utroms I dunno. I also wonder why the Gaurdians would take Splinter without reassuring the Turltes that he'd be alright, that way the turtles still wouldn't have discovered the Utroms.

Another one is how did Ch'rell get controll of the mystics, it's not really a plot hole it just went unexplained. I would love to get and episode of little movie about that.

[deathtojohnny]

What's always bothered me was how Karai was supposed to be his daughter. Why in satan's glorious name would an evil alien take a young human girl under his wing? Doesn't make sense in the slightest.

The main reason they wanted to make Shredder an Utrom was so that they could connect the Ninja Turtles' origin to Shredder's even further.

Having a Mystic Shredder helped a bit by having the Ch'rell take Oroku Saki and Shredder forms by following his legend.

[ToTheNines]

What's always bothered me was how Karai was supposed to be his daughter. Why in satan's glorious name would an evil alien take a young human girl under his wing? Doesn't make sense in the slightest.

So he could train her to do his bidding in the future.

[Dan]

The only thing that I can see that slightly confuses me is how Hun didn't know that Shredder was defeated on top of the foot HQ that night. Further more, I don't understand how Karai could have known he was an utrom if he didn't. Yes, Karai was raised as Saki's daughter, eventually telling her that would be nothing shy of ordinary, but I just don't get why Hun didn't know. In Exodus, he was so shocked to see it, but then in Season 4, he continued on, working from the teachings of his "master" even though he had been kinda betrayed by him. Well Hun wasn't there when Shredder was defeated. But in Secret Origins Shredder stands right in front of Hun and says to Leonardo You merely separated my head from my body. So Hun must have known something was up.

[Turo602]

Another dumb thing is that in The episode (Fathers and sons) Splinter tells the Ancient One that Yoshi has been slade by the Utrom Shredder.

And this was when the Turtles were Little Mutant Training Turtles.

[Shark112]

Another dumb thing is that in The episode (Fathers and sons) Splinter tells the Ancient One that Yoshi has been slade by the Utrom Shredder.

And this was when the Turtles were Little Mutant Training Turtles.

Wait a second, Yoshi was always said to be killed by the Utrom Shredder.

[Jester]

Wait a second, Yoshi was always said to be killed by the Utrom Shredder.
Yes, but at that point Splinter didn't know Shredder was an Utrom.
Another one is how did Ch'rell get controll of the mystics, it's not really a plot hole it just went unexplained. I would love to get and episode of little movie about that.
After Ch'rell was banished, Karai showed the mystics the relic he used to control them, the Heart of Tengu...or something like that. I assume Ch'rell had it. The bigger question here is why the Mystics didn't question Ch'rell's mantel of Shredder like they did Karai's. Is it that the Utrom Shredder had them so fooled they they thought he was the original Shredder?

[gobo]

Is it that the Utrom Shredder had them so fooled they they thought he was the original Shredder?
Possibly, but not necessarily. One thing's for certain: Ch'Rell was cunning enough to keep the Heralds in the dark about how he was keeping them captive. He was no Dr. Evil, but Karai and Cyber Shredder were oddly enough.

[Coola Yagami]

The Mystics knew they were fakes but had no choice. It seems they were forced to obey whoever held that jewel thing. Even when they tricked Bishop into destroying it, they said they were finally 'free of the impostor'. They knew Karai wasa fake and had to serve her, so they probably knew Chrell was a fake too and still had to serve him.

[Jester]

I guess the question is why didn't they try this little trick before Karai? Not conducive to the plot? :P

[Ninjinister]

I guess the question is why didn't they try this little trick before Karai? Not conducive to the plot? :P

Who's to say they didn't? Ch'rell could have had them enslaved for hundreds of years and have tried to escape his Utrom Tech-Fisted rule several times, and simply failed.

[gobo]

I guess the question is why didn't they try this little trick before Karai? Not conducive to the plot? :P
This is why I said what I said. Why go through all the trouble of stealing something when you don't know what you're after or if it's even a material object?

[ToTheNines]

My gripe is they never explain how their entrapment occured. Just that story alone would have been a better episode than most of the Ninja Tribunal bull.

[odupianist]

I kind of figured it as they still sensed good in Karai's heart if that makes any sense. Or I could just be full of crap because it's still early here.

[Ninjafromanotherseries]

Guardians must have known that Shedder is Utrom. I find it little odd that they dedicate their lives for protecting alien brains but these aliens wouldn´t ever get into details what they are fighting against.

But remember, Shedders body and head landed middle of fire so maybe Guardians thought he died there.

[LEMIRADO]

Yes, but at that point Splinter didn't know Shredder was an Utrom.


Who knows, there are two possible explanations for this:

1- Utrom Shredder may refer to "The Shredder of the Utroms" explaining his role of nemesis of our little pink aliens and not about his exact nature.

2- Splinter always knew he was an Utrom. He is known for keeping vital or important information to the TMNT only revealing it when necessary (or when the plot requires it). There are not enough data to deny this during Shredder aparitions before Secret Origins.

[Turo602]

2- Splinter always knew he was an Utrom. He is known for keeping vital or important information to the TMNT only revealing it when necessary (or when the plot requires it). There are not enough data to deny this during Shredder aparitions before Secret Origins.

Then why did splinter attack his utrom part in Exodus and has never done it before. And why would he let his turtles fight him without telling them his weak spot. And one more thing when the utroms were going to tell the TMNT who shredder really was and it was to late Splinter could of just told them himself.

[ToTheNines]

1- Utrom Shredder may refer to "The Shredder of the Utroms" explaining his role of nemesis of our little pink aliens and not about his exact nature.

:D I like this one!

[LEMIRADO]

Then why did splinter attack his utrom part in Exodus and has never done it before. And why would he let his turtles fight him without telling them his weak spot. And one more thing when the utroms were going to tell the TMNT who shredder really was and it was to late Splinter could of just told them himself.

1-Because that`s the only instance they fought him as Oroku Saki without Shredder's armor, which would protect his "weak spot".

[Dan]

The Mystics knew they were fakes but had no choice. It seems they were forced to obey whoever held that jewel thing. Even when they tricked Bishop into destroying it, they said they were finally 'free of the impostor'. They knew Karai wasa fake and had to serve her, so they probably knew Chrell was a fake too and still had to serve him. Yeah they knew they called Ch'rell an "Utrom imposter".

[Icebot]

Maybe the utrom guardian thought the Utrom Shredder was the original Shredder and was unaware of how the original Shredder can put himself back together with his magic power (other than being resurrected by the mystic ninjas). That would explain why he thought the shredder was destroyed. Just a thought.

Hun didn't know Shredder was an Utrom until Exodus.

[ToTheNines]

Maybe the utrom guardian thought the Utrom Shredder was the original Shredder and was unaware of how the original Shredder can put himself back together with his magic power (other than being resurrected by the mystic ninjas). That would explain why he thought the shredder was destroyed. Just a thought.

What? I don't get it.