View Full Version : My theory as to why TMNT hasn't been doing so good.
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-14-2006, 11:33 PM
I just kinda thought of this, but, could it be that TMNt hasn't been doing so well in the ratings department, and failed to caoture previous audiences, is because they didn't do the movie sooner.
Mayber if the put out TMNT in 2002, or maybe postponed the show until 2008, maybe it would have garnered more hype for the show, and it would have been more succesful to bring back old viewers.
It's just a theory.
VaughnMichael
08-15-2006, 01:18 AM
It's a good Theory and all and I'm not going to dismiss it one bit.
But I think there are allot of factors that didn't help the new show out very much.
1). Allot of TMNT fans are those of the 80's Cartoon and allot really have no idea of the Mirage comics unless they happen to be lucky enough to have someone show them the comics at a young age much like my uncle did.
Or they come across them from word of mouth or the Internet which has helped with allot these days.
2.) I think also with a lack of the characters from the old cartoon people were very disappointed and let down. Many people don't like change as we all very well can see with The New Fast Forward, Next Mutation, Images TMNT, As well as with the horrid new toy line which now seems to be finally getting back to it's roots with help from Michael Dooney. I mean though we still to this very day see people come up on message boards besides this one complaining about a non human Shredder which we are finally getting, No Krang which we sort of had with Ch'rell, No Bebop & Rocksteady, & no Chanel 6. I know allot of people like the darker side of TMNT but allot of kids grew up with that show and loved it so I can see where those people are coming from. Me I just about like any TMNT that has been thrown at me that's why I'm still here.
3.) The toy line has been lackluster from day 1. It seems every toy company has evolved leaps and bounds above their past but it seems Playmates has DE-evolved bellow the standards of even the toys they made in the 80's.
There is a lack of cool characters to grab kids attention. I mean hell they had the right thing going on in the 80's kids haven't changed much sure they play with video games and all but they still like toys but they like toys who look cool. Not 50 different turtles kids even when I was little complained about that. We would much rather have a few turtles come out every once in a while to go along with the comics or show and have tuns of bad guys and their friends come out in plastic form. It's a well known fact kids like crazy looking Monsters & Creatures.
4.) Not to rag on the 2003-pre fast forward but come on allot of those episodes even if cannon can be very boring to kids. The problem was the show was really marketed towards the wrong audience and I think that stems down from the top starting with Peter Liard if he was just out to make money and bring the turtles back he should have either taken two routes One take the safe route and make a kids show or two make a teen/adult Mirage or Archie based show. Or Hell do two different ones.
5.) My last reason for the lack of sales would have to go a bit far out and say it would be from the lack of the Turtles Comic Book presence on shelves or it being known to most of the public in general. Allot of things factor into this many people do not like Jim Lawsons Bare Bones art style. The way the long drawn out story's are going and how long they are all taking to come to a close if ever. The fact that there is no Archie like comic book being based on the new show doesn't help much either to spark the interest of young kids who want to get into TMNT comic books. To be honest Archie is what really got me into TMNT comics and then Mirage.
So those are My Top 5 reasons as to why the New Introduction of TMNT didn't do so well I hope you enjoyed it!
GK Punk
08-15-2006, 01:20 AM
The one thing I'd say is that it's good in theory, but look at every other show that has done just fine with out having a movie come out to help support it.
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-15-2006, 01:27 AM
Long read but I get where you coming from. I do think he should have just gone down the teen/adult route with the show. Jids just aren't into good story. Tonami or Adult swim would have been better choices for the show. Preferably Toonami.
Also youre right about the toyline. Maybe Laird should have taken it to a company like Four Horsemen or Toy Biz. The toys would have sold better to collectors that way.
Maybe what Mirage can do is garner more hype for Tales of TMNT book. It's not long and rawn out and it doesn't matter if you miss an issue.
Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle
08-15-2006, 01:40 AM
I thought the Turtles franchise got in a lot of money in toys sales when the show first came out?
VaughnMichael
08-15-2006, 01:47 AM
Long read but I get where you coming from. I do think he should have just gone down the teen/adult route with the show. Jids just aren't into good story. Tonami or Adult swim would have been better choices for the show. Preferably Toonami.
Also youre right about the toyline. Maybe Laird should have taken it to a company like Four Horsemen or Toy Biz. The toys would have sold better to collectors that way.
Maybe what Mirage can do is garner more hype for Tales of TMNT book. It's not long and rawn out and it doesn't matter if you miss an issue.
Heh sorry I can be a bit long winded.
I agree also he should have gone down that line and tried to reach his now grown up fan base. I don't agree with Toonami or Adult Swim though since Cartoon Network doesn't care about it's shows just about as much as Fox doesn't care about it's shows. He being so into sci-fi should have taken it to that chanel I think turtles would have done pretty well on there if it was to go to any chanel.
I've been doing allot of thinking lately and I think what with Warner Brothers doing the new TMNT movie and not Fox that perhaps that's why Peter isn't making a big stink about the show being a sinking ship. He very well could be doing this entire Fast Forward thing because TMNT could be going to Kids WB. I'm really surprised no one else has thought of this idea yet but these days everyone around the Drome seems to be so full of gloom and doom to think of anything positive like that.
Funny you mention that I talked to the Four Horsemen at the Comicon about how much I love their Masters Of The Universe sculpts and suggested that they should look into doing the Ninja Turtles and they said to me "You know that's actually a great idea we never thought of that!" So there is always hope. More fans of the TMNT should contact both them and Peter Liard about the idea and as we all know the more that contact people the more things get done.
I also agree on what you said about Tales of TMNT and I think that's what they are trying to do it seems more comic shops get that in and more copies as well. It's been pretty tough still for me to find both though.
I thought the Turtles franchise got in a lot of money in toys sales when the show first came out?
Nostalgia my friend nostalgia.
Draconic
08-15-2006, 08:04 AM
You want to know why it didn't get popular? I'll tell you why, it's no theory, it's personal experience.
1. POOR marketing, and barely any hype. I found out about the new cartoon when I was surfing the net, and decided to try ninjaturtles.com. I had to go looking before I actually found it. Why I went looking, I have no real idea.
2. I don't even know when it comes on. I haven't seen a single Ninja Turtle commercial. Toyline, cartoon, nothing. My only guess is that it comes on in the morning. I work until four.
3. I actually found them once, I turned on the TV, and they were on! I was like, "Holy 'Moley!" but the turtles were in space?! I must have picked up in the middle, and that's pretty tough to do, so I couldn't really get into it.
4. I still don't know when it comes on, or on what station for that matter. When it all comes down to it, it's a critical lack of publicity and advertising that makes the show fail.
5. I will probably never watch Fast Forward, because the turtles are Ninjas, not Jedi. Beefing up the turtles with light-sabres, and crooked weapons don't make them "edgy," or more effecient, it just looks like more of a gimmick. And a show about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, what more gimmick do you need?
So, there it is: Mystery solved.
You want to know why it didn't get popular? I'll tell you why, it's no theory, it's personal experience.
1. POOR marketing, and barely any hype. I found out about the new cartoon when I was surfing the net, and decided to try ninjaturtles.com. I had to go looking before I actually found it. Why I went looking, I have no real idea.
2. I don't even know when it comes on. I haven't seen a single Ninja Turtle commercial. Toyline, cartoon, nothing. My only guess is that it comes on in the morning. I work until four.
3. I actually found them once, I turned on the TV, and they were on! I was like, "Holy 'Moley!" but the turtles were in space?! I must have picked up in the middle, and that's pretty tough to do, so I couldn't really get into it.
4. I still don't know when it comes on, or on what station for that matter. When it all comes down to it, it's a critical lack of publicity and advertising that makes the show fail.
5. I will probably never watch Fast Forward, because the turtles are Ninjas, not Jedi. Beefing up the turtles with light-sabres, and crooked weapons don't make them "edgy," or more effecient, it just looks like more of a gimmick. And a show about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, what more gimmick do you need?
So, there it is: Mystery solved.
Some okay thoughts, but I've seen plenty of ads (for show and toys alike), both on TV and through DVD previews. So advertsing doesn't really seem the case.
Draconic
08-15-2006, 08:45 AM
The stations I watch, (Cartoon Network, comedy central, etc) don't air commercials for the TMNT. They don't advertise their toys either. I haven't been to a website with a TMNT banner until I came to this fansite. I'd say a lot of people don't even know there's a new cartoon. I actually told my sister the other day about the new show. She was surprised, and asked when it came on. I told her I didn't know. She gave up.
Really now, I think that when the new movie comes out, there will be plenty enough publicity to get people interested enough to look for TMNT info, but unless people make a habbit of watching children's programming, they likely have no idea about the new cartoon.
Edit:
So umm... when does it come on?
Edit:
and what station..?
The stations I watch, (Cartoon Network, comedy central, etc) don't air commercials for the TMNT. They don't advertise their toys either. I haven't been to a website with a TMNT banner until I came to this fansite. I'd say a lot of people don't even know there's a new cartoon. I actually told my sister the other day about the new show. She was surprised, and asked when it came on. I told her I didn't know. She gave up.
Really now, I think that when the new movie comes out, there will be plenty enough publicity to get people interested enough to look for TMNT info, but unless people make a habbit of watching children's programming, they likely have no idea about the new cartoon.
Edit:
So umm... when does it come on?
Edit:
and what station..?
Oh, okay. Though have seen it advertised on CN.
As for when it's on. Curretly airs on the 4Kids block (usually on Fox stations) Saturday mornings at 10.
Draconic
08-15-2006, 10:03 AM
Dang... Saturday morning at 9 for me... Well, looks like I have no more excuses... I wish I had TiVo... :-\
Dang... Saturday morning at 9 for me... Well, looks like I have no more excuses... I wish I had TiVo... :-\
Oh well. Maybe can tape them (if have a VCR, given your noting of Tivo-wanting).
As for the rest of TMNT episodes, likely have to track down the DVDs (which can be a bit difficult nowadays).
Rhetorical Q&A
Q: How many fans of the 1987 show are watching TV at mid-morning on Saturdays?
A: Not very many.
Q: How many kids too young to already be TMNT fans are watching TV at mid-morning on Saturdays?
A: Lots.
Q: Despite it's "TV Y" rating, to whom did the 2K3 series genuinely appeal more: kids below age 14 or people older than 14?
A: The older crowd.
Q: Is it a surprise that ratings have missed expected marks?
A: No.
Not trying to be sassy here... but I'm not sure why people are so surprised.
Sewer Bull
08-15-2006, 01:55 PM
Not trying to be sassy here... but I'm not sure why people are so surprised.
Iris, you solved that marketing case study pretty well. Now, how about suggesting some solutions? Moving the whole show later in the timetable perhaps?
Sage Ninja
08-15-2006, 02:49 PM
Maybe a new network?
Iris, you solved that marketing case study pretty well. Now, how about suggesting some solutions? Moving the whole show later in the timetable perhaps?
I dunno, Rob. Want some wild speculation? lol
Where does the 2K3 show fit? Even though I love the show, I just don't see it fitting in any other time slot on Fox. The WB/CW channel (Time Warner) would have been the best place for it, IMO, because of the general ambience of the network... but that didn't happen for whatever reason. I'm not sure Warner is interested in the property, even though they've got the contract to promote the movie. They own CN, which for who-knows-what reason seems to be shunning TMNT. Sci-Fi (NBC/Universal) has been known to pick up shows from other networks... and TMNT isn't science fiction but sci-fi has hosted plenty of fantasy material. TMNT ain't as strange as most stuff on Sci Fi, but I think it would get decent ratings... of course, I'm slightly optimistic in general, so... take with salt. :)
But if the show has to air on Saturday morning, Fast Forward is the right solution. To that end, it might be a good sign that people are grumbling about missing the "darkness" of the show... although, with Donatello faking suicide in the last ep, who really knows? The writers seem to be having trouble killing some of their old habits.
Ninja Tiptup
08-15-2006, 03:10 PM
The new TMNT "isn't doing good" because pretty much everything fails on 4kidsTV for one. If it was on KWB it'd probably would be a bigger success but it that may have cost it some integrety as well. No more than Fast Forward has though...
The show is edgey and a bit dark and also rich in continuity. It's almost a bit too bogged down in those things which old turtle's fans love and kids just don't seem to care for. Judging by Fast Forward, they decided an episodic approach was better for kids interests and that may be the main reason the story arc based TMNT didn't continue to do well with kids.
Sci-Fi? I really don't think that would work either. The ideal place for TMNT would have been Toonami. Good promotion, good air time and depending on the line-up at the time... usually some good supporting shows. Miguzi worked IMO but 6-11 just didn't care after a while and when that happened CN just gave up. Instead they should have aimed it at the Toonami crowd like they did with 4kidsTV's other "failure" One Piece (which is great in Japanese but 4kids ruined it completely). But CN just isn't that bright anymore. On the other hand... TMNT does suit Adult Swim and never will outside of parodies. Us oldie need to remember that it's youth demographics that make this business roll on not us.
VaughnMichael
08-15-2006, 04:41 PM
I dunno, Rob. Want some wild speculation? lol
Where does the 2K3 show fit? Even though I love the show, I just don't see it fitting in any other time slot on Fox. The WB/CW channel (Time Warner) would have been the best place for it, IMO, because of the general ambience of the network... but that didn't happen for whatever reason. I'm not sure Warner is interested in the property, even though they've got the contract to promote the movie. They own CN, which for who-knows-what reason seems to be shunning TMNT. Sci-Fi (NBC/Universal) has been known to pick up shows from other networks... and TMNT isn't science fiction but sci-fi has hosted plenty of fantasy material. TMNT ain't as strange as most stuff on Sci Fi, but I think it would get decent ratings... of course, I'm slightly optimistic in general, so... take with salt. :)
But if the show has to air on Saturday morning, Fast Forward is the right solution. To that end, it might be a good sign that people are grumbling about missing the "darkness" of the show... although, with Donatello faking suicide in the last ep, who really knows? The writers seem to be having trouble killing some of their old habits.
Read what I wrote Iris I said this entire Fast Forward thing really could be because of Warner Bro's doing the movie and perhaps they will move the show to the kids wb.
And honetly I think all of the jerking around over at Cartoon Network has allot to do with them and Fox going back and forth about the show...and Cartoon Network airing episodes before Fox did which was rude on their part.
You guys are right that the show would fit with Toonami, but I don't see it happening. (That's right... I have my crystal ball right here... :P )
Read what I wrote Iris I said this entire Fast Forward thing really could be because of Warner Bro's doing the movie and perhaps they will move the show to the kids wb.
And honetly I think all of the jerking around over at Cartoon Network has allot to do with them and Fox going back and forth about the show...and Cartoon Network airing episodes before Fox did which was rude on their part.
I missed that. I only read your post about the toys (good points, btw).
It would make sense, with the whole CN thing, if Warner and Fox were going back and forth about something... but industry people can be fickle naysayers sometimes so who knows what it is. Any reason to actually think that the show is moving to WB?
If they are thinking about launching a new turtles series, now would be the perfect time. The new movie will give the franchise a lot of momentum for a TV series. That's actually what got me thinking about the SciFi channel... because I think the CG animation would play especially well on there.
If the older fans want a series that's made for them, instead of a kids show that's desperately trying to be more than a Saturday Morning Cartoon, then now is an auspicious time to fight for it.
VaughnMichael
08-15-2006, 06:35 PM
You guys are right that the show would fit with Toonami, but I don't see it happening. (That's right... I have my crystal ball right here... :P )
I missed that. I only read your post about the toys (good points, btw).
It would make sense, with the whole CN thing, if Warner and Fox were going back and forth about something... but industry people can be fickle naysayers sometimes so who knows what it is. Any reason to actually think that the show is moving to WB?
If they are thinking about launching a new turtles series, now would be the perfect time. The new movie will give the franchise a lot of momentum for a TV series. That's actually what got me thinking about the SciFi channel... because I think the CG animation would play especially well on there.
If the older fans want a series that's made for them, instead of a kids show that's desperately trying to be more than a Saturday Morning Cartoon, then now is an auspicious time to fight for it.
I'm glad we both agree this boards been like woa :o lately lol.
it's ok and now you did and it seems we are both thinking pretty much the same things.
I'm actully shocked some one else besides myself think scifi is a good place for the Turtles lol.
& oh I'm think wb may be the new home of turtles because well I've been looking at a few things and we've got fast forward on fox even though I'm enjoying it I don't really said Laird going that way and Fox wanted to cancle the show and they aren't the ones funding this new movie Warner Bro's is that's another reason for me.
In some states Wb is where the new toon is shown allready.
And wb was the place the new toon was going to be shown in the first place before fox got it remember?
It would seem to me that the wb seems to be more interested in the tmnt and taking it seriously more so than fox ever has!
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-15-2006, 06:47 PM
Sci-Fi would be a great place for TMNT. I mean, the show is more sci-fi than anything. Plus with them already airing the Amazing Screw On Head, looks like theyre getting more intrested in animation. Plus, on that network the TMNT would be marketed to the proper fan base and would be able to kick it up a notch.
They really just need to grasp that older crowd. And they could start by marketing the toys to the collectors. I'll send Laird an email concerning that.
VaughnMichael
08-15-2006, 07:11 PM
Sci-Fi would be a great place for TMNT. I mean, the show is more sci-fi than anything. Plus with them already airing the Amazing Screw On Head, looks like theyre getting more intrested in animation. Plus, on that network the TMNT would be marketed to the proper fan base and would be able to kick it up a notch.
They really just need to grasp that older crowd. And they could start by marketing the toys to the collectors. I'll send Laird an email concerning that.
Good deal! I think it would be great if we all do this.
It can't hurt since we all are only trying to help out our guys in Green!:D
raphaelprime
08-16-2006, 12:04 AM
Sci-Fi (NBC/Universal) has been known to pick up shows from other networks... and TMNT isn't science fiction but sci-fi has hosted plenty of fantasy material. TMNT ain't as strange as most stuff on Sci Fi, but I think it would get decent ratings... of course, I'm slightly optimistic in general, so... take with salt. :)
Don't forget Who Wants To Be A Superhero, and they've aired some comic book movies aswell...Nick Fury, Hulk, X-men(i think). So i agree, offer it to the Sci-Fi channel.
My biggest theory?
They need to get it on more channels, period. 3(maybe 4) cities in North Carolina air TMNT and the FoxBox/4Kids block, only 3, no more. If i want to watch TMNT, i have to either A) drive an hour to hour n half to Charlotte, B) drive an hour n half to 2 hours to Raleigh, or C) go to Wilmington, and i cant just flat out forget that.
Fox WGPH(Winston, High point, Greensboro, etc) covers almost 4 counties in NC, what do they air Saturday mornings? paid programming and soap operas. I know someone who works there too and have many many times told her they need to get it and had friends tell them, but nothing.
So that there is why its not doing good. lets face it, ratings are an obsolete(no pun intended for FF) method of determining a shows popularity/strength/how well its doing. Espicially a cartoon's that doesnt even reach allll of its targeted audiance.
Cause i would bet you, if they came online, and seen how many times the episodes have been downloaded they would realize their ratings report are off of how many people are wanting to watch the show.
Ninja Tiptup
08-16-2006, 12:52 AM
Read what I wrote Iris I said this entire Fast Forward thing really could be because of Warner Bro's doing the movie and perhaps they will move the show to the kids wb.
And honetly I think all of the jerking around over at Cartoon Network has allot to do with them and Fox going back and forth about the show...and Cartoon Network airing episodes before Fox did which was rude on their part.
4kids gave CN the opportunity to air those episodes before 4kidsTV in attempts to boost the ratings. CN didn't do a goo djob of airing them though.
Sage Ninja
08-16-2006, 10:38 AM
I have a question. Mind you I know next to nothing about how tv networks operate so bear with me.
If they did switch networks or stations for TMNT, would they still be able to keep the same voice cast? I mean there are certain voice actors that I only see in foxkinds cartoons and no place else (Like Wayne Grayson, Veronica Taylor, and Frank Frankson). Would a change of networks mean we wouldn't get to keep some of the orginal cast that voice the characters?
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-16-2006, 09:52 PM
I dont see how we'd lose the voice cast. I mean, theyr'e not 4Kids property. Veronica Taylor does Ash on Pokemon, Michael Sinterniklaas does dean on Venture Bros, Wayne Grayson did Joey on Yu-Gi-Oh, Sam reagal did some voices on Naruto.
VA's are free agents.
Anyway, I feel that any and all comic book cartoons should go to Sci-Fi, they'd take more care of them than anyone else, plus they'd be seen by the correct audience. TMNT would be safe there.
It would be cool to have a TMNT show that was meant for general audiences as opposed to just the littl'uns. I think it would work... TMNT has been around long enough now. It's a difficult sell as a TV show because it's a joke to many people, but there is no reason at all to believe that the movie will be a joke. It looks really good.
Ecto Cooler voiced an interesting suggestion in *ahem* another thread: they should run the old toon instead of FF. And it's true, I think the kids would still like it, although I don't think it would be practical to replace FF. Got me thinking though, why aren't they running the old toon on CN or somewhere? I bet that would do really well as late-nite fare on many stations.
VaughnMichael
08-17-2006, 01:14 AM
It would be cool to have a TMNT show that was meant for general audiences as opposed to just the littl'uns. I think it would work... TMNT has been around long enough now. It's a difficult sell as a TV show because it's a joke to many people, but there is no reason at all to believe that the movie will be a joke. It looks really good.
Ecto Cooler voiced an interesting suggestion in *ahem* another thread: they should run the old toon instead of FF. And it's true, I think the kids would still like it, although I don't think it would be practical to replace FF. Got me thinking though, why aren't they running the old toon on CN or somewhere? I bet that would do really well as late-nite fare on many stations.
I would love that! And I really think we're onto something with the sci-fi chanel idea Iris! Perhaps we all should suggest it to Peter Liard!?
It's a good idea and all in thought to play the old toon on tv the only reason no one is doing so is from what I'm told is that the episodes are very pricey!:(
which I think has allot to do with the old toon dvd's being brought out.
and I also agree about TMNT as a whole being taken as a joke mind you it started out as one...but it's become so much more! It does make my heart sad though when I go places like comicon and comic shops and people either give me snide remarks, comments, or looks or laugh when I asked for Ninja Turtle comics. Something really does have to be done about this it's sad that every other comic line can be respected but the TMNT and allot of that has to do with the way the Old 80's Toon sold out the standard of what TMNT was all about...and no I'm not ripping on the old show it's how I found out about TMNT as a kid but allot of people only think of the 80's toon and nothing else infact allot of people don't even know there are TMNT comics.:ohwell:
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-17-2006, 06:03 PM
I would love that! And I really think we're onto something with the sci-fi chanel idea Iris! Perhaps we all should suggest it to Peter Liard!?
It's a good idea and all in thought to play the old toon on tv the only reason no one is doing so is from what I'm told is that the episodes are very pricey!:(
which I think has allot to do with the old toon dvd's being brought out.
and I also agree about TMNT as a whole being taken as a joke mind you it started out as one...but it's become so much more! It does make my heart sad though when I go places like comicon and comic shops and people either give me snide remarks, comments, or looks or laugh when I asked for Ninja Turtle comics. Something really does have to be done about this it's sad that every other comic line can be respected but the TMNT and allot of that has to do with the way the Old 80's Toon sold out the standard of what TMNT was all about...and no I'm not ripping on the old show it's how I found out about TMNT as a kid but allot of people only think of the 80's toon and nothing else infact allot of people don't even know there are TMNT comics.:ohwell:
Well, heres hoping the movie changes that. After all, it worked for Batman.
I would love that! And I really think we're onto something with the sci-fi chanel idea Iris! Perhaps we all should suggest it to Peter Liard!?
So uh, who has Pete's number? :D
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-17-2006, 11:05 PM
So uh, who has Pete's number? :D
Lets ask Kevin Eastman....
what's his number?
Lets ask Kevin Eastman....
what's his number?
Uh... *stares into space* five one six five nine four two one three zero? :goof:
No, really though, maybe we should tell Peter Laird we want a TMNT show suitable for prime time. If we wait to see how the movie does, it might be too late to get the ball rolling from all the way out here in fandomland.
VaughnMichael
08-18-2006, 12:33 AM
Uh... *stares into space* five one six five nine four two one three zero? :goof:
No, really though, maybe we should tell Peter Laird we want a TMNT show suitable for prime time. If we wait to see how the movie does, it might be too late to get the ball rolling from all the way out here in fandomland.
it never hurts to tell some one whos in charge ideas you have for something you really care about.
That's how thing get done.
Now who's gonna help steal all of the muppets from Disney lol:lol:
BigApple3AM
08-18-2006, 12:36 AM
I got represented! But misrepresented. A little browsing turns up it was ectojedi that said that, not me. I didn't think I said it, but I don't disagree with it one bit! Viva la old toon!
Seriously though, you guys feel bad about how turtles is looked down upon, how must power rangers fans feel?
Turtles have enough staying power, no problems. I hope the new movie is 1/10th as cool as the '90 one. Then I'll feel proud to be a turtle fan.
Draconic
08-18-2006, 07:52 AM
http://metaltv.rightangleinc.com/mboard/index.php?0
This is a Heavy Metal forum, so no kiddies allowed.
But there is a board dedicated to Kevin Eastman, and if you post something, I'm think he's sure to see it.
But I dunno about Laird.
I got represented! But misrepresented. A little browsing turns up it was ectojedi that said that, not me. I didn't think I said it, but I don't disagree with it one bit! Viva la old toon.Oh no! My apologies to both you and Ecto Jedi. I have difficulty with names, so I should have known better than to go from memory. At least you agree! :D
I don't think we should really bug Eastman. He's doing his own thing now, and there are other avenues. Maybe I'll fire an email to Dan Berger and ask.
Spitfire
08-18-2006, 03:33 PM
I'll tell you why TMNT failed
1) It was marketed towards little kids, bascially the wrong auidence. This show is clearly for teens and adults.
2) Kids like lame ass, stupid, plot hole filled, pointless, badly animated, horridly voice acted, anime. It lacks style, orginiality, and any form of intellectual thinking is not required in watching.
So shows like Naurto and Inyunasha are popular, as to where TMNT isn't. TMNT makes sense, has a storyline, and looks good*I mean really for a Saturday Morning cartoon this show looked good* Now TMNT has no shading really it just looks like some generic crap show on WB Kids.
Krangstein
08-18-2006, 03:55 PM
I'll tell you why TMNT failed
1) It was marketed towards little kids, bascially the wrong auidence. This show is clearly for teens and adults.
2) Kids like lame ass, stupid, plot hole filled, pointless, badly animated, horridly voice acted, anime. It lacks style, orginiality, and any form of intellectual thinking is not required in watching.
So shows like Naurto and Inyunasha are popular, as to where TMNT isn't. TMNT makes sense, has a storyline, and looks good*I mean really for a Saturday Morning cartoon this show looked good* Now TMNT has no shading really it just looks like some generic crap show on WB Kids.
That's a little harsh isn't it. I do agree though that the series is very adult friendly...
Spitfire
08-18-2006, 04:03 PM
I don't think it's harsh at all. Anime has ruined TV. I don't see what kids find appealing in it. It's stupid.
VaughnMichael
08-18-2006, 04:30 PM
I don't think it's harsh at all. Anime has ruined TV. I don't see what kids find appealing in it. It's stupid.
it's not harsh it's the truth and Anime has ruined American animation...we don't even have our own damn style anymore since everything on tv is Anime just about or trying to mock it...it's annoying...and it was all over comicon...they have Anime and scifi cons for a reason....don't really see what Anime and Ster Wars had to do with comic books besides money.:roll:
Oh people, please don't start with the whole 'anime is the work the devil' thing. It's not like the US doesn't have its share of stupid, pointless cartoons. Has anyone seen Archie's Weird Mysteries? Yeesh.
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-18-2006, 06:34 PM
I'll tell you why TMNT failed
1) It was marketed towards little kids, bascially the wrong auidence. This show is clearly for teens and adults.
2) Kids like lame ass, stupid, plot hole filled, pointless, badly animated, horridly voice acted, anime. It lacks style, orginiality, and any form of intellectual thinking is not required in watching.
So shows like Naurto and Inyunasha are popular, as to where TMNT isn't. TMNT makes sense, has a storyline, and looks good*I mean really for a Saturday Morning cartoon this show looked good* Now TMNT has no shading really it just looks like some generic crap show on WB Kids.
True man. But there are still anime shows that I like(including Naruto).
It's sad there are no standards anymore. And you can make a psuedo-anime trash show, or just horribly dub a pre-exsisting one and bank off of it. Meanwhile shows like TMNT, Samurai Jack, and JLU which are true testaments to great american animation, are constantly given the shaft.
There needs to be another uprising. Disney, Nickelodeon, and WB all need to start going back to thier roots and pounding out excellent cartoons, rather than just pumping out the same old generic stuff.
Oh people, please don't start with the whole 'anime is the work the devil' thing. It's not like the US doesn't have its share of stupid, pointless cartoons. Has anyone seen Archie's Weird Mysteries? Yeesh.
Yes, unfourtunatley I have. But still, my theory is that when alot of anime shows started coming over sees, starting with Pokemon, it's just caused some american animators to slack off a bit.
ZariusTwo
08-18-2006, 06:35 PM
Anime HAS stifiled american animation to the point it's nothing but pointless explosions and exposistion substituting for card commercials, even an anime fan like me wants every anime off of American air waves. Heck I hav'nt seen a good new anime in years except for the new Guyver anime. Alchemist was awesome, but it was by no doubt the last of a dying breed. Narutard sucks, it's only now wrapping up a filler arc before heading into the second stage of the Manga.
"Archie's Weird Mysteries" comes from the sadder days of DIC, a company that once aced modern day anime with M.A.S.K, Inspector Gadget, and Sonic SATAM.
VaughnMichael
08-18-2006, 07:18 PM
True man. But there are still anime shows that I like(including Naruto).
It's sad there are no standards anymore. And you can make a psuedo-anime trash show, or just horribly dub a pre-exsisting one and bank off of it. Meanwhile shows like TMNT, Samurai Jack, and JLU which are true testaments to great american animation, are constantly given the shaft.
There needs to be another uprising. Disney, Nickelodeon, and WB all need to start going back to thier roots and pounding out excellent cartoons, rather than just pumping out the same old generic stuff.
Anime HAS stifiled american animation to the point it's nothing but pointless explosions and exposistion substituting for card commercials, even an anime fan like me wants every anime off of American air waves. Heck I hav'nt seen a good new anime in years except for the new Guyver anime. Alchemist was awesome, but it was by no doubt the last of a dying breed. Narutard sucks, it's only now wrapping up a filler arc before heading into the second stage of the Manga.
"Archie's Weird Mysteries" comes from the sadder days of DIC, a company that once aced modern day anime with M.A.S.K, Inspector Gadget, and Sonic SATAM.Amen to what the both of you said...those are my exact thoughts!:)
raphaelprime
08-18-2006, 07:50 PM
Meanwhile shows like TMNT, Samurai Jack, and JLU which are true testaments to great american animation, are constantly given the shaft.
Yeah, but Samurai Jack not as much, its won an emmy, or golden globe or one of the big awards.
Draconic
08-18-2006, 08:07 PM
The only problem with anime is that the decent ones, such as Paranoia Agent, Gantz and Hellsing, are not as popular as the crappy Yugi-oh, Pokemon, and Inu Yasha.
With the introduction of anime, more people have become interested in cartoons as a form of entertainment for all ages, and likely one of the reasons we can watch the TMNT without an alarming amount of ridicule we would have in the '80's. Also, while many minds have been warped beyond repair due to the introduction of anime, these are likely minds that wouldn't have been missed. And as unoriginal as anime may appear, it cannot be denied that it has inspired many people to pick up a pencil and start taking art seriously.
I'm not saying that American-made cartoons couldn't do the same in the magnitude that anime has, I'm just saying it didn't. Although, I will concede that most of these are "wanna-be no-talent" artists, regardless the interest in art is a step in the right direction.
If you don't like anime, so be it, it's probably not for you and that's cool, but to make generalized statements about how anime is degrading American society without acknowledging the benefits, is to make yourself look dumber than you might have yourself appear.
-Draconic
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-18-2006, 09:46 PM
What benifets. If you consider hordes of baddly dubbed animes like Yu-Gi-Oh and Bobobo that are making so good American cartoons can't get the respect they deserve a benifit, then it's all good.
There are anime shows I like too, but theres just too much of it. It's getting to the point where we'll never have shows like Gargoyles or The Tick again.
ZariusTwo
08-18-2006, 10:27 PM
With the introduction of anime, more people have become interested in cartoons as a form of entertainment for all ages
Any mainstream portion of the audience sees anime as nothing more than three things: DBZ, Pokemon, and bad dubbing. That's it, anything else is a minority bonus who become enlightened, god bless CN and AS for knowing that and airing Bebop and Alchemist before they became only known through the minority interest
I'm not saying that American-made cartoons couldn't do the same in the magnitude that anime has, I'm just saying it didn't.
That's BS. Several people I know began drawing when they saw Ren and Stimpy and The Simpsons.
Spitfire
08-19-2006, 09:33 PM
I like 3 anime shows. The new Hellsing*The old one is garbage, it butchered the manga*, Outlaw Star*Which is really funny*, and Cowboy Bebop.
I also like a few movies, like Princess Monoke. Other then that I havn't seen any other anime I like. The rest of it is all the same crap with bad production values and horrible plot. Even when I watched it subbed it still sucks. And Cartoon Network and 4Kids dubbing everything left and right and airing it isn't helping at all.
Now we got shows like Teen Titians that are forced to use this stupid style. It's like anime made by amercians...I just can't stand it. And now TMNT is at this level.
VaughnMichael
08-19-2006, 10:31 PM
That's BS. Several people I know began drawing when they saw Ren and Stimpy and The Simpsons.
exactly that's what me into art as a kid I just loved how everything looked!:D
those shows and the turtles.
Unrealman
08-19-2006, 11:40 PM
I concur this anime influence needs to stop, leave anime to the japanese. A minority anime like Berserk would never aired on Cartoon Network or 4kids TV. it's just not as popular as Naurto, DBZ or Pokemon even though it has much better art and animation then all those shows combine. Heck does any one outside of Berserk's cult following even know the anime exists.
anime Berserk is missing a couple of things from the manga, First it doesn't tell you much about Gattsu past, like the fact that during his childhood he was molest by a dark skin mercenary ( Male). second unlike the manga , the anime never fully tells you what happen during the eclipse. Berserk is also missing some small tidbits from the manga here and there.
anime Berserk may not live up to the manga it's based on, but it's certainly alot better than most anime that's shown on Television these days.
Edit: This Fast Foward thing sucks as, I saw it on youtube and couldn't even get past the first episode. I Like what little bit I saw of the old 2k3 Cartoon before Cartoon Network took it down. I never had time to watch the old 2k3 on fox because it was never on when I awoke up at 3pm in afternoon.
raphaelprime
08-20-2006, 01:35 AM
Anime isn't everyones favorite style i know. But i do like a little of it, mainly just the art of some, course the only anime i've really ever watched is FF:Unlimited and dbz/gt(and not the cleaned up CN version) and TMNT:SupermanLegend
...leave anime to the japanese.
Let's leave all the ninja stuff to the Japanese, too, how about that? :roll:
ZariusTwo
08-20-2006, 10:59 AM
Let's leave all the ninja stuff to the Japanese, too, how about that? :roll:
....No, he has a point, America trying it either means few get the point nor grasp the art.
....No, he has a point, America trying it either means few get the point nor grasp the art.
That's absurd. "America" isn't one entity. Neither is "the Japanese," for that matter. And America is a mash off all sorts of cultures to begin with. Cultures affect each other through individual interaction as well as mass media. Stuff made for the masses is usually of inferior quality, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted just because not everyone can appreciate the art. Japan has its share of low-quality anime as well.
ZariusTwo
08-21-2006, 09:36 AM
No, the art is abused, when it's done properly, (SRMTHFG), people don't watch it, the best efforts come from emulating the style of the older school territories (PPG), Teen Titans is a great series, but it's animation grates on my nerves because it's not emulating anime, it's using it as a ratings card
Japan clearly grasps western animation, otherwise Bebop would'nt be regarded as a great balance of anime and western influence
Yeah, the art is abused, but isn't that true of any art? Most ends up being exploited for profit, in the hands of certain people. The Ninja Turtles franchise itself contains all extremes of that (the very good and the very bad). Doesn't mean nobody gets it... clearly some people do. But the low quality stuff simply outcompetes the higher quality stuff on the market, in most cases. I guess it's less about art and more about economics: How do you mass-market a specialty product? In the case of TMNT 2K3, you apparently have to turn it into an infomercial for toys. :P
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-21-2006, 03:54 PM
Is that really all to the TMNT there is now. Is that what all cartoons are for 30 minute toy comercials? You know, I actually envy the Japanese, because theyr'e cartoons are regarded with respect. Here, theyr'e look down upon like kiddie crap. It's BS like that, that makes me just want to up and move to Japan or something.
ZariusTwo
08-21-2006, 05:58 PM
Is that really all to the TMNT there is now. Is that what all cartoons are for 30 minute toy comercials? You know, I actually envy the Japanese, because theyr'e cartoons are regarded with respect. Here, theyr'e look down upon like kiddie crap. It's BS like that, that makes me just want to up and move to Japan or something.
...Most of their work without the dub latley has been kiddie crap, I don't just hate the DUBS of One Peice, Naruto, and Inyushua, I hate them period. Alchemist was a return to form of the old school shows that dominated CN like Gundam Wing, Macross, and Bebop, not this enlongated DBZ wannabes
Is that really all to the TMNT there is now. Is that what all cartoons are for 30 minute toy comercials?
No, that's definitely not what I'm saying. But advertising has always been part of network television, and the toy biz has always comprised a large part of adverts during shows targeted at kids. Along came certain shows that just lent themselves to toy merchandizing (not to mention toys that lent themselves to cartoon shows) and you had a lucrative partnership. Who here didn't have Transformers toys? This developed well before 1987 (beginning in earnest around 1983), so it's possible, and maybe probable, that merchandizing potential has always been considered along with anything else TMNT offers.
I actually think that with the advent of DVR technology and the ability to skip ads, we are going to be seeing many more product placements and merchandizing woven into shows. Check out the way Smallville hawks albums, for one example. Somebody save me.
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-21-2006, 08:27 PM
...Most of their work without the dub latley has been kiddie crap, I don't just hate the DUBS of One Peice, Naruto, and Inyushua, I hate them period. Alchemist was a return to form of the old school shows that dominated CN like Gundam Wing, Macross, and Bebop, not this enlongated DBZ wannabes
I like some animes. Cowboy Bebop, Digimon season 3, Samurai Champloo, Paranoia Agent, and Full Metal Alchemist are my top favorites. But Naruto is my number 1. With the nice blend of action and comedy and the intense character driven stroylines, it reminds me alot of TMNT.
No, that's definitely not what I'm saying. But advertising has always been part of network television, and the toy biz has always comprised a large part of adverts during shows targeted at kids. Along came certain shows that just lent themselves to toy merchandizing (not to mention toys that lent themselves to cartoon shows) and you had a lucrative partnership. Who here didn't have Transformers toys? This developed well before 1987 (beginning in earnest around 1983), so it's possible, and maybe probable, that merchandizing potential has always been considered along with anything else TMNT offers.
I actually think that with the advent of DVR technology and the ability to skip ads, we are going to be seeing many more product placements and merchandizing woven into shows. Check out the way Smallville hawks albums, for one example. Somebody save me.
Yeah it's pretty shameful. But still, i guess your right. TV nowadays is just nothing but shamefull merchidise plugs. And were all whores for it. :D
But if they wanted to use TMNT to pass of mecrhindise, they could at least make it good.
ZariusTwo
08-21-2006, 08:53 PM
The problems with Narutard, aside from the obvious cliches that DBZ posseses, is that, like DBZ, it eventually sinks into filler plots before moving on to the bigger, more important stages.
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
08-21-2006, 10:55 PM
The problems with Narutard, aside from the obvious cliches that DBZ posseses, is that, like DBZ, it eventually sinks into filler plots before moving on to the bigger, more important stages.
Thats only in the anime and they did that for a reason. The show was catching up with the first part of the manga too quickly, and if they continued from the point it left off, it would have completley passed the manga. So they're doing the filler arcs to give enough time for Naruto 2 to complete before they animated that.
And aside from the fact that characters spend a little too much time talking and reflecting on previous episodes, the show is way better than DBZ. Because unlike DBZ, theres actually a coherent story behind Naruto.
ZariusTwo
08-21-2006, 11:48 PM
Thats only in the anime and they did that for a reason. The show was catching up with the first part of the manga too quickly, and if they continued from the point it left off, it would have completley passed the manga. So they're doing the filler arcs to give enough time for Naruto 2 to complete before they animated that.
Oooor they could just wait and put it on hiatus, screw the mainstream audience watching it, as they don't fully appreciate the product anyway for it's alleged "substance" and will drop it like bad salmon in ten minutes given the chance
And aside from the fact that characters spend a little too much time talking and reflecting on previous episodes, the show is way better than DBZ. Because unlike DBZ, theres actually a coherent story behind Naruto.
Narutos' ripped a bunch of cliches and concepts from Mangas more than DBZ took it's concepts from folk lore, Superman, and Monkey. A series that has to plug a gap between two stages with bland arcs is'nt superior to anything, it's just as lazy as DBZ got in between the Android and Cell Sagas.
Krang
08-22-2006, 03:33 AM
...Most of their work without the dub latley has been kiddie crap, I don't just hate the DUBS of One Peice, Naruto, and Inyushua, I hate them period. Alchemist was a return to form of the old school shows that dominated CN like Gundam Wing, Macross, and Bebop, not this enlongated DBZ wannabes
There are plenty of recent anime series beyond what CN shows. Some went straight to DVD or were aired on another channel, and some haven't been released in the US. Episode counts range from just a few to several hundred. There may be alot of annoying kiddie anime series out there, but there are also alot of good ones like FMA.
Narutos' ripped a bunch of cliches and concepts from Mangas more than DBZ took it's concepts from folk lore, Superman, and Monkey. A series that has to plug a gap between two stages with bland arcs is'nt superior to anything, it's just as lazy as DBZ got in between the Android and Cell Sagas.
Shows like Naruto and DBZ certainly aren't artistic masterpieces, but that doesn't mean that they can't be fun to watch. Fillers don't affect the plot anyway, so they can easily be skipped.
...And now we're really off-topic. Maybe it would be better to discuss this in the TV and Movies section.
ZariusTwo
08-22-2006, 10:06 AM
There are plenty of recent anime series beyond what CN shows. Some went straight to DVD or were aired on another channel, and some haven't been released in the US. Episode counts range from just a few to several hundred. There may be alot of annoying kiddie anime series out there, but there are also alot of good ones like FMA.
Yeah, I've already said that Alchemist is one of the better shows, but that's because the dub's handled with dignity, and it's different from a lot of the kind of material that Naruto represents, it feels like it comes from a dated period of anime that they don't do need to depend on anymore (I mean did you see how much Yu-Gi-Oh fell apart after two years?), but it gets eaten up anyway.
Better to move this into the "Favourate Anime" thread
Warhorse
10-06-2006, 06:11 PM
You want to know why it didn't get popular? I'll tell you why, it's no theory, it's personal experience.
1. POOR marketing, and barely any hype. I found out about the new cartoon when I was surfing the net, and decided to try ninjaturtles.com. I had to go looking before I actually found it. Why I went looking, I have no real idea.
2. I don't even know when it comes on. I haven't seen a single Ninja Turtle commercial. Toyline, cartoon, nothing. My only guess is that it comes on in the morning. I work until four.
3. I actually found them once, I turned on the TV, and they were on! I was like, "Holy 'Moley!" but the turtles were in space?! I must have picked up in the middle, and that's pretty tough to do, so I couldn't really get into it.
4. I still don't know when it comes on, or on what station for that matter. When it all comes down to it, it's a critical lack of publicity and advertising that makes the show fail.
5. I will probably never watch Fast Forward, because the turtles are Ninjas, not Jedi. Beefing up the turtles with light-sabres, and crooked weapons don't make them "edgy," or more effecient, it just looks like more of a gimmick. And a show about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, what more gimmick do you need?
So, there it is: Mystery solved.
I agree 100% with you. I never ever knew about the new TMNT until last year, when I was on an X-Men site, that someone mentioned the new TMNT movie coming out. So, when I did some research on it, this was when I found out about the new cartoon. Not on tv ads, or the book/video stores.
Now, I would watch occasionally on the Cartoon Network. When they were on early in the mornings, I could catch it. Then they started screwing with the times, and I eventually forgot about the show. Same case with Fox4kids. I sometimes catch it, but it's being moved around so much, or pre-empted by another show, that I just dont look for it no more. I want to watch the cartoon, I tried to, but what is there to watch when it's never on.
I will also admit, I first was not happy with the way the animation was. I liked the comical turtles of the 80's. But they still had the personalities down pat, so I was able to get over my prejudiceness.
What makes matters worse, I'd like to watch the earlier episodes that were once in syndication. WHat happened to that?
Iris, you solved that marketing case study pretty well. Now, how about suggesting some solutions? Moving the whole show later in the timetable perhaps?
This would not be a bad idea. Put the turtles on the same time as The Simpsons and King of the Hill are on. And those shows have been going strong for years!
PizzaPower
10-17-2006, 06:31 AM
we need more advertisements. Anyone get the feeling that the Jedi TMNT website could be updated anytime soon because of FF??
Vegita-San
10-17-2006, 11:48 AM
I agree, that toy line is noting but crap. The Varients are coming full force now, with Scuba Dubing mike, or whatever it was called. When they do that, it just degrades it. Why can't they just come up with cool new characters and designs, rather than rely on varients? they could also be doing statues, prop/weapons replicas for the adults, etc... SO much more cool stuff than what is being done now...
ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
10-17-2006, 10:26 PM
I agree, that toy line is noting but crap. The Varients are coming full force now, with Scuba Dubing mike, or whatever it was called. When they do that, it just degrades it. Why can't they just come up with cool new characters and designs, rather than rely on varients? they could also be doing statues, prop/weapons replicas for the adults, etc... SO much more cool stuff than what is being done now...
The statues....already done. There are the 4 classic TMNT statues, and that one new Raph bust.
As for the rest, they probably wont come unless the TMNT movie hits it off with adults.
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