Letter Campaign

[Buslady]

So...anybody considering a letter campaign to 4Kids about how bad Fast Forward is?
Sure it might no do anything, but you never know.

[Aztec General]

Sadly I think they'll respond with: "Yeah they're right let's pull TMNT off the air entirely!"

[Jo Dawn]

I think it's good to let them know what fans think.

We're in a situation here that's either 'No TMNT' or 'constant Fast Forward'. If the show bombs, TMNT is done. If it does well (which I doubt) we get more FF. The 2K3 show is kaput. We're never getting it back.

That being said, I think it's important for companies to get feedback from it's fans, as that is how they know what to plan and whatnot. Personally, I think they need to know.

Also, that being said...! When you write to them, I'd make sure to say thing in a polite manner. Use examples. Try and be almost professional and NOT just 'u sux' or something. They aremore apt to listen to a well thought out, nicely written (don't be rude and such) letter. They'll know it was the product of much thinking and appreciate the feedback.

[GK Punk]

Let's just keep in mind though, 4K was losing money and doing not so hot in the ratings with TMNT. This was their last chance at it. If there is no FF, there is no TMNT toons at all. Give it a shot if you'd like though.

[Leonardo_Warrior_Turtle]

A letter campaign didn't work to try and save Angel from cancellation. Hell, not even a freaking big rally in front of the WB's offices helped. So I really think 4kids is not going to care about what a bunch of older fans think. I wish we could change their minds and go back to the 2k3 format, but it's not going to happen. The Lost Season is our last bit of 2k3 Turtle goodness we'll get.

[iris]

Let's just keep in mind though, 4K was losing money and doing not so hot in the ratings with TMNT. This was their last chance at it. If there is no FF, there is no TMNT toons at all. Give it a shot if you'd like though.
I agree with this. If you're going to do a letter-writing campaign, you won't get anything if you just trash Fast Forward. Well, you might help get TMNT cancelled.

You need to promote a financially viable alternative. Give them something actionable. Make a specific request, and tell them how it will work.

What's your angle?

[Katie]

this may be where we wanna point out the possibilities of targeting Both the younger and older demographics by releasing something in the 2k3 format straight to DVD. (hey! getting money from both ends of the spectrum SHOULD get their attention)

I should flex that marketing MBA muscle and do some research and put a proposal together for us to look at and see what you guys think....

[iris]

Wow, Katie. Ambitious. And I think that would be awesome. It would show we mean business... literally. ;)

[Katie]

:D

I really am going to put a proposal together....it can't hurt to knock the rust off my brain and put something new in my portfolio....and who knows....maybe I get a job offer!

anyway...I'm going to have to do a demographics study and I'll need help from you guys for that a little later on....and I'll also need something along the lines of what older audiences/fans would like from the franchise (as far as shows, merchandise, etc.) I need realistic suggestions. Help me out on this and it might be worth our time and effort :D

[AquaParade]

This really does sound great. Worst that could happen is nothing. Might as well give it a shot.

[Draconic]

I'll also need something along the lines of what older audiences/fans would like from the franchise (as far as shows, merchandise, etc.)

I want bronze statuettes of the team to display in my home, modeled after the comic turtles.

I want shows on the gritty streets of NY, and to see '80's style punks causing a rucus!

I want... longer stories.. and maybe some episodes that center on character development, and maybe not so much action.

I want the action to be intense and violent! :evilgrin:

[Katie]

Great! that's the kind of stuff I need to know!!!

Here's what I have been playing with on my breaks today:

Demographic Study of TMNT Fans and Product Suggestions for Maximization of Franchise Profit

A Proposal by {insert my full name here}






Overview

For 22 years the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (TMNT) have existed in one incarnation or another. The diversity of mediums and products offered through the years has piqued the interest of more than one demographic group of fans. Recent changes in the marketing strategy of the franchise have alienated several groups in the fandom and created opportunities for growth in these segments. By developing products that target the older demographic of the TMNT franchise, it will be possible to maximize profit and assure the future success of the TMNT.



Comments? Suggestions on direction?

[AquaParade]

For one thing, We need some better villians. I dont know about you guys, but most of the villians in the tmnt universe just dont seem to be up to par with the wonderful creation that is the tmnt. Peter Laird used to draw pin-ups which had Donatello and other turtles battling mythical creatures, and some fights like that would be pretty interesting to see...i dont know...just brainstorming....Definitley some more emphasis on the ninjitsu part...maybe a little more sticking to the shadows as their name implies. I'd like to see a lot of character development throught a new tmnt series...really show how each turtle interacts with one another, so you really know how each and every turtle feels about one another. Maybe show us a little bit of the aftermath, after the turtles get done slicing and dicing in a room full of foot soldiers for 3 minutes....in other words, maybe some blood and violence...just enough for us to know it exists in the world of tmnt....hmm ill brainstorm later...hope i was at least a little helpful. Dont really know what your looking for exactly. :-?

EDIT: And more of the rat king as he was created and portrayed in "i, monster"

[oldtoonTMNTfan]

Great! that's the kind of stuff I need to know!!!

Here's what I have been playing with on my breaks today:

Demographic Study of TMNT Fans and Product Suggestions for Maximization of Franchise Profit

A Proposal by {insert my full name here}






Overview

For 22 years the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (TMNT) have existed in one incarnation or another. The diversity of mediums and products offered through the years has piqued the interest of more than one demographic group of fans. Recent changes in the marketing strategy of the franchise have alienated several groups in the fandom and created opportunities for growth in these segments. By developing products that target the older demographic of the TMNT franchise, it will be possible to maximize profit and assure the future success of the TMNT.



Comments? Suggestions on direction?

Sounds like a great idea on paper, but how can TMNT be marketed to the mature fans? The majority of the fans are teenager that buys the toys, shirt, etc. I haven't seen any older demographic that wears shirts and a few of them buys the toys.

[Katie]

The current target audience for the show seems to be males aged 5-10. (I say seems because I do not have access to the actual marketing plan, I'm just going by advertisers during the show)

When I say older demographics I mean people who are in their teens to mid-thirties. I think much older than that and you start dropping off significantly (Simply because most people became interested in the franchise through the Old Show and there is a limit to the age range of people who would have watched that show in it's day for target marketing reasons)

@ Underoath & everyone else...I am looking for comonalities in things people would want from a more mature TMNT line

[AquaParade]

How about characters who aren't cardboard cut outs of certain stereotypical personalities? O, and keep or even strengthen the synchronized episode method they really started to enforce in 2k3.

Edit: O, and like I mentioned in my earlier off topic'ish first post, they really need to show us some real ninjitsu stuff. It seems like every tmnt incarnation starts out with all the stealth aspects and they slowly start to fade away as the franchises run on....IMHO :)

[Spitfire]

Dear 4Kids TV,

Stop being assholes, your program sucks and makes TV all the more unbearable to watch. The only ray of sunshine in your craphole of programming was TMNT. And you have now just buried it in this craphole. Why you have done this is beyond me. The show didn't have good enough ratings, poor merch sales? Whatever your excuse is it was not nessciary. You turned the show inside out and now it just looks like every other generic peice of garbage you show.

Good job now TMNT is on par with Winx Club and GI Joe. Thanks a lot.

[iris]

Great! that's the kind of stuff I need to know!!!

Here's what I have been playing with on my breaks today:

Demographic Study of TMNT Fans and Product Suggestions for Maximization of Franchise Profit

A Proposal by {insert my full name here}



Overview

For 22 years the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (TMNT) have existed in one incarnation or another. The diversity of mediums and products offered through the years has piqued the interest of more than one demographic group of fans. Recent changes in the marketing strategy of the franchise have alienated several groups in the fandom and created opportunities for growth in these segments. By developing products that target the older demographic of the TMNT franchise, it will be possible to maximize profit and assure the future success of the TMNT.


Comments? Suggestions on direction?
Looking good, Katie!

It's good to emphasize that TMNT was an absolute phenomenon among kids in the late 80s, and those people still like TMNT, but there's nothing for them because it's all aimed at the kids... the young kids, at that. In other words, the gap in the market is really big.

It would be good to have some examples of similar product targeted at an older age group. Batman is the obvious comparison, I think.

I would also like to see them being more "ninja"... stealth can be scary. And I tend to agree with Draconic in that I like the more in-depth, 3-dimensional stories, where the violence isn't portrayed as a ho-hum daily thing but shows up in intense bursts. Hard to do that in half an hour, unless you have multi-parters. Basically, we had something close to that with the 2K3 series.

Sounds like a great idea on paper, but how can TMNT be marketed to the mature fans? The majority of the fans are teenager that buys the toys, shirt, etc. I haven't seen any older demographic that wears shirts and a few of them buys the toys.
Dude, I would so wear TMNT shirts if there were any appropriate for me.

[Jo Dawn]

Sounds like a great idea on paper, but how can TMNT be marketed to the mature fans? The majority of the fans are teenager that buys the toys, shirt, etc. I haven't seen any older demographic that wears shirts and a few of them buys the toys.

I have to politely disagree with alot of what you said.

When I was in college I saw tons of TMNT shirts and stuff. All older than 'teens'. When the 2K3 series first came out, I would wear a shirt out and get stopped by ALL ADULTS. They'd start up convos about the new toon. As for the toys, well... I saw TWO kids ever buy the toys. The rest were all older folks. But then again, that might be my area of the world. But whatever. It's what I saw.

I'd say if TMNT were marketed towards older, more mature fans it would do tons better as:

1) They have more money to buy the toys (and no, I don't count children throwing hissy fits for mommy and daddy to buy the toys)

2) Most likely, if they're interested, they were longtime fans of the old toon or, even better, the comics. As they have grown their tastes and humor have matured considerably. They require a 'thinking' more mature show. And something they enjoyed as a child, the TMNT, would do well to fulfill that. If done RIGHT.

[MasterMole]

Joe Dawn: You are right, it would do better, especially if it was on Toonami or other Primetime slot. Mirage and Laird must dump both 4Kids and Playmates, unless they seriously and quickly shape up. Regarding the T-shirts, I never saw the 2k3 series
T-shirts in Adult sizes. I still want one bad, but all they sell or did sell are child sizes.

[MasterMole]

I believe a main problem for 4Kids not continuing with Ninja Tribunal story and also for not airing Insane in Membrane is this: Those people who make up 4Kids just never got it thru their heads that this 2K3 series is totally seperated from the old show. Not only them, but Playmates too. My big question is this: Before this show premiered, Why was the channel-choice and scheduling of this show not more thought out. I mean, this show absolutely, positively without a doubt belonged on Toonami, or another definite primetime slot. Cartoon Network decided to air it on the lame and childish "Miguzi", and you know why? It's because both 4kids and C.N. see this show only for children, and not for what it trully is. Those TV networks, and Playmates, have continued to force this show to a childlike demographic that should not have been allowed. Peter Laird and the show's writers, Mirage, and whoever else played major roles in this show, should've Emphasized this exact point. They needed to sit down and have an in-depth discussion about how this show was to take form. If Peter Laird and the writers knew the show's direction, involving great continuety and deeper, maturer storylines, then why did this not get discussed further with 4Kids and Cartoon Network? They needed to emphasize that this new series is not the old show with pizza-loving, child-like turtles, with simple storylines. No, this new series is Totally Separate from that previous Incarnation. After this important discussion between the networks and Laird, then the decision could've been made as to which network would handle the show's schedule and direction. I'm sure if this kind of meeting(s) occurred, then TMNT would have premiered on Toomami on Friday or Saturday nights back in 2003. If the ratings stayed good, and C.N. was generous with the show, then we would now probably be watching the awesom "Ninja Tribunal" story as well as the rest of the "True Season 5". Toonami would've also aired "Insane in Membrane, as well as airing the episodes in prober order.

[wyze2099]

I think appealing to the execs in language they understand (demographics studies, for instance) would be the way to go. We've got to convince them that TMNT is a great property whose biggest problem is inefficient marketing.

For instance, the 2K3 series is one of the better interpretations of the TMNT I've ever seen, and its more recent seasons have been phenomenal, with the kind of storytelling usually reserved for primetime television. Not necessarily in terms of the violence or character death per se (though there is that as well), but in terms of the storylines continuing for multiple episodes and multiple seasons, with the action and character development actually having far-reaching consequences. So one thing I'd suggest is for TMNT to be marketed more as a prime-time animated series. It's not working in Saturday morning, obviously, because the show thinks differently than most Saturday Morning 'toons.

Ironically, when I lived in Dallas, TX when the '80s cartoon first premiered, the first five episodes were played on weekday afternoons, and then several episodes after that were shown in prime time at 7pm on Sundays. It was rare to actually see a cartoon in that time-slot (this being long before the Simpsons), and that show was weekday afternoon/Saturday morning fare. And the 2K3 show has been shown almost exclusively on Saturday mornings and weekday afternoons, yet the stories being told make more sense in a prime time format. I think the 2K3 series could flourish in prime time (probably on CN), where it could attract an older audience that would appreciate what's going on.

Another suggestion for the TMNT marketing image: give the show an opening theme that reflects the tone of the actual show. The 2K3 theme is bouncy and hyper, kind of like the famous '80s theme, but it only fit the mood of the series for maybe a handful of episodes in the first season, and sporadic episodes after that. The opening theme doesn't hint at the show's edgy nature, and it's probably a turnoff to people who might otherwise be the perfect target audience for the actual episodes. Put it this way: "Batman the Animated Series" had similar dark and complex themes, with a moody art style and plenty of action and violence that most cartoons couldn't get away with ... and it had opening theme music to reflect that. Imagine if "B:TAS" had an opening theme more in line with the campy '60s Adam West show; it would have been a bait-and-switch that would have turned off most of its intended audience. An opening theme should give the audience an idea of what to expect from the actual show.

Should the younger children be alienated? Absolutely not. But given that we're dealing with a different generation, it seems to me the older fans should be taken into account by the marketing. And heck, children who are interested in watching the show could still see it in prime time. But my point is, the show itself was not particularly broken; the marketing was. This show would be a goldmine to a demographic of older teens and adults ... once they're made aware that this version of the Turtles is for them.

[iris]

I agree, wyze2099. The problem is not the product. The problem is the packaging.

My big question is this: Before this show premiered, Why was the channel-choice and scheduling of this show not more thought out. I mean, this show absolutely, positively without a doubt belonged on Toonami, or another definite primetime slot. Cartoon Network decided to air it on the lame and childish "Miguzi", and you know why? It's because both 4kids and C.N. see this show only for children, and not for what it trully is. Those TV networks, and Playmates, have continued to force this show to a childlike demographic that should not have been allowed. Peter Laird and the show's writers, Mirage, and whoever else played major roles in this show, should've Emphasized this exact point. They needed to sit down and have an in-depth discussion about how this show was to take form. If Peter Laird and the writers knew the show's direction, involving great continuety and deeper, maturer storylines, then why did this not get discussed further with 4Kids and Cartoon Network? They needed to emphasize that this new series is not the old show with pizza-loving, child-like turtles, with simple storylines.
MasterMole, we have no way of knowing what Mirage and 4Kids did or did not discuss. We at least know that Peter Laird is generally quite outspoken about his TMNT concept. But it's self-deceiving to bank on the premise that anyone who isn't deeply involved in the artistic development of TMNT 2K3 thinks of the turtles as anything but silly surf-speaking pizza-addicted amphibians. Whether they were told otherwise or not. You have have to realize that the 4Kids board of directors are mostly over 50 years old (some are pushing 60). They probably relate to TMNT as a thing they saw succeed among the young kids, and that maybe their grandkids might like, not as something anyone else could like. That's the main way that TMNT isn't like Batman or any of the 'classic' comics that so many generations have known since childhood. I would like to think that some of the board members saw and liked the 2K3 series (it did make it 4 years after all), but that's probably wishful thinking.

TMNT's success in the past is a double-edged sword. It's made it a more difficult sell today because many of the people with the money know of that "stereotyped" joke version of the turtles, even if they've never even seen the show or movies. I wouldn't be shocked if they had pitched it to CN/NBC and it was passed over. But on the other side, the past success means there's a boatload of older fans out there, just waiting for some TMNT righteousness to come their way. ;)

[VaughnMichael]

Dear 4Kids TV,
Stop being assholes, your program sucks and makes TV all the more unbearable to watch. The only ray of sunshine in your craphole of programming was TMNT. And you have now just buried it in this craphole. Why you have done this is beyond me. The show didn't have good enough ratings, poor merch sales? Whatever your excuse is it was not nessciary. You turned the show inside out and now it just looks like every other generic peice of garbage you show.
Good job now TMNT is on par with Winx Club and GI Joe. Thanks a lot.
thanks spitfire this is a great example of what not to write to 4kids and fox!:D

Dude, I would so wear TMNT shirts if there were any appropriate for me.
I have a tmnt shirt for every day of the week recently got some new ones at the san diego comicon designed by Peter Liard I love them! Also lastnight at the club the dj was wearing an orignal mirage fan club tmnt shirt..he said he's had it forever and I inspired him to wear it! :) woo go turtles hehe

[AquaParade]

Any updates on this?

[Katie]

I'm doing my background work...I want a full blown nice and articulate study to send. Keep giving me ideas...this is helping alot :D

[Ecto Jedi]

Ironically, when I lived in Dallas, TX when the '80s cartoon first premiered, the first five episodes were played on weekday afternoons, and then several episodes after that were shown in prime time at 7pm on Sundays. It was rare to actually see a cartoon in that time-slot (this being long before the Simpsons), and that show was weekday afternoon/Saturday morning fare. And the 2K3 show has been shown almost exclusively on Saturday mornings and weekday afternoons, yet the stories being told make more sense in a prime time format. I think the 2K3 series could flourish in prime time (probably on CN), where it could attract an older audience that would appreciate what's going on.

Well said, 'bro. Watching my TMNT DVDs at night is a totally different experience from watching the episodes during Saturday mornings. But now that Fast Forward has taken over, I don't know how that would play out. (Probably very badly, to be honest with you.)

[jeff the cheff]

4kids probably wants to attract almost the same demographic for all of their shows on 4kids. Their best viewers are the ones that stay through the entire lineup on saturday morning and watch the same commercials over and over again until they just need to beg their mom for the product(I have no idea how anyone could sit through the whole block). I think the only good way to get the older audience to watch would be to show TMNT on a different station at a different time, or release them straight to dvd. If they did release them straight to dvd, the only people that would buy them are people like us who were already fans of the show, and that wouldnt make enough profit.

[iris]

4kids probably wants to attract almost the same demographic for all of their shows on 4kids. Their best viewers are the ones that stay through the entire lineup on saturday morning and watch the same commercials over and over again until they just need to beg their mom for the product(I have no idea how anyone could sit through the whole block). I think the only good way to get the older audience to watch would be to show TMNT on a different station at a different time, or release them straight to dvd. If they did release them straight to dvd, the only people that would buy them are people like us who were already fans of the show, and that wouldnt make enough profit.
That would be a good use of resources, if any other station is interested in running TMNT.

Anyone know anything about the finer points of syndication?

[Inner City Blues]

I'll just won't watch Fast Forward, I have no issue ignoring the series, I have no problem with the old series ending with the Ninja Tribunal storyline. It would be nice to get more episodes of the 2003 show, but I will be satisfied ending at season 5. I actually predicted the show would only be five seasons, mostly because animated series don't get that much support past four years. The fact that we've had four 26-episode seasons is no simple feat so I can accept a 13-episode ending.