Sai Question

[KonstantinosK]

Hello :)

I ordered 2 sais 4 days ago from Amazon. These:
http://www.amazon.com/Tiger-Claw-Inc-Round-Sai/dp/B0000C4JZ0/sr=8-1/qid=1156982088/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-9396655-3194335?ie=UTF8

But...I searched the whole internet to find training videos about sais and I fount nothing.

Question: Do you know where can I download training videos (kata) or books about mastering sai???

Thank you very much :)

P.S.: In about 2 months I'll go to the Greek army for 1 year. No internet, no nothin! So if you find videos about sais, tell me from where can I download "time" to practice! He...!

[Katie]

Hello again :)


These guys (http://www.Karatedepot.com) sell training videos on alot of Martial arts subjects. Might try there. (I used to purchase supplies for my dojang) They have videos on all the weapons if I remember right.

[Buslady]

Number one: Sai ain't toys. You can't just learn them off a video and think you're all hot shot. You must learn from an actual sensei, who can show you the proper way of handling them. But that's not before learning the empty hand arts then you climb the stairs to get to that level of proficiency and earn the right to learn to use weapons.

I don't study, but I don't go around playing with my sai, they are only apart of my collection.

That book in the link, kinda pinkish printed cover...by Fumio Demura...he's a local sensei over in Santa Ana, around the corner from the bus yard! woohoo! I have that book.

[KonstantinosK]

Ahh thank you Katie!

I HAVE to find time to practice or...in army others will fight with guns and I will fight with sais!!! http://smilies.sofrayt.com/^/aiw/tongue.gif

Thanks again Katie http://smilies.sofrayt.com/^/aiw/smile.gif !

[Katie]

yep, you're right there, Buslady. I was a second degree blackbelt in Kobudo before I was allowed to work with sai.

Any weapon should be used with respect

[Peanut]

Unless it's a glock, gangsta! I'll teach mofo's respect wit dat! Know wut I'm sayin'? BANG BANG!

[KonstantinosK]

Unless it's a glock, gangsta! I'll teach mofo's respect wit dat! Know wut I'm sayin'? BANG BANG!

Got it!

Nut peanut!

[Katie]

:P

*twitches a little*
Damn! I never was good at going up against firearms!!!!

*falls to the ground dying, blood all around*
I never got to see Paris...

*dies* :dead:

[KonstantinosK]

:P

*twitches a little*
Damn! I never was good at going up against firearms!!!!

*falls to the ground dying, blood all around*
I never got to see Paris...

*dies* :dead:

Hahahahaha!!!
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/^/aiw/tease.gif

[Dinny]

P.S.: In about 2 months I'll go to the Greek army for 1 year. No internet, no nothin! So if you find videos about sais, tell me from where can I download "time" to practice! He...!

One year, file? I only have to do 3-6 months. Still, all my friends in Athens say it's the best experience they've ever had.

[KonstantinosK]

One year, file? I only have to do 3-6 months. Still, all my friends in Athens say it's the best experience they've ever had.

Nai re siii!!!

3-6 months?! Are you gonna pay the generals?!!!

How on earth you'll go only for 3-6 months???!!!

You know...IF there'll be good guys there, it's a sure thing that it'll be ok. But I heard that there are places that still make "kapsonia" there...

That scares me a bit...

(kapsonia=means that an older guy makes you do crazy things. Example: 1)Shave a photo. 2)Hold a building so the wind won't take it away(!) 3)etc...)

[Sewer Bull]

(kapsonia=means that an older guy makes you do crazy things. Example: 1)Shave a photo. 2)Hold a building so the wind won't take it away(!) 3)etc...)

Hmm... That doesn't sound as bad as measuring the whole corridor with a single match or swallowing a coin and singing popular songs requested by our "kapsonias" here.

... shaving a photo? But... how?

[KonstantinosK]

Oh my...

Well, you just put shave cream and you start shaving. Nothin much actually!

But I heard another one. They put someone in a closet, the others throw coins from an opening of the closet and they say: Sing us (example) "My Heart Will Go On". And he starts to sing(!). They throw another coin and then they say: Sing us this song (or that).

1 year...it's ooooonly 1 year...!

[Kid A]

I'd suggest getting a teacher as well. Books or videos can work as supplements, but they can never assist you like a teacher does. I guess you want to learn it as a martial art, so it would be helpful to learn Karate before, because Karate and Kobudo are closely related, for example in stances and movements as Demura shows in his book.
But that's not before learning the empty hand arts then you climb the stairs to get to that level of proficiency and earn the right to learn to use weapons.
So you think skill gives you the right to learn using a weapon?

[Buslady]

So you think skill gives you the right to learn using a weapon?

It's a combination of skill, maturity, respect. It's not one thing that earns you the priviledge of learning. I correct my words, not "right" but "priviledge".
Because the sai is an extension of your hand, I beleive you need to learn Karate, Okinawan Karate I believe and you use this along with the use of the sai.

[Anarky]

So you think skill gives you the right to learn using a weapon?
This seems to be the way the martial art-society goes these days. The more colourful your belt gets, the better you must be. And before you can use any weapon, hell, before you're even allowed to pick one up you must master just about every technique there is, no matter how idiotic or tiring. If you ask me, that's idiotic. Sure, it might have worked for over 1000 years, but even back then it was idiotic.

If you want to use a weapon, then I'd say you'd need some basic fighting skills before you pick up your weapon. Then you get a teacher, not a video. Training with videos is, once again, quite idiotic. Then you learn how to use that weapon. End of story. But noooo, in martial arts, you have to be able to win against a three foot, pink alligator with ten teeth and an inflammatory bowel syndrome, before you can pick up a weapon (by, the way, you woulnd't imagine how much the techniques against a three foot, pink alligator with ten teeth and an inflammatory bowel syndrome are from the techniques used against a three foot, blue alligator with ten teeth and an inflammatory bowel syndrome).

[Kid A]

Buslady: Sure you should be aware of what you are capable of doing when you learn a weapon, but in my opinion this has to do absolutely nothing with being high-graduated in any martial arts, though it can be helpful. And being able to do the finest martial arts tricks doesn't mean to get maturity or respect, because in almost every dojo ethics isn't a part of lessons and audit program, to get the next belt.

And a knife is a extension of the hand as well, so is a bat, so is a sword, but you don't actually need to do any martial art before learning how to handle these weapons.

Anarky: The thing is that martial arts isn't self defense anymore. It is either a hunt for belts or a system for right movements. If you're for belts, you'll experience that all your martial art is a show where those shine in their high-handedness whose black is darkest and those with the lightest belts are fascinated by the exclusivity of their school. They reduce themselves to belts, so a humble white belt isn't allowed to know and perform things a grand black belt would do. And because weapons are things for black belts, you don't begin martial arts with a weapon, but with your empty hand. See: empty hand means you've got nothing in your hand, so you don't quickstart with a weapon. 100 years ago when Karate was meaning "Chinese Hand" you maybe were able to, but not anymore.
On the other hands there are the martial arts that concentrate on the part of art and mostly movement. Here it is very important to know how you move and you learn this better if you are not distracted by something you have to whirl in your hands, so the weapons come a tad later, when you learned enough about movement to transfer it into to weapon style. If you wouldn't do this it would be possible that you damage your body by performing movements that are harming your ankles for example.
If you want to do just self defense, you can be thaught that with ot without martial arts, as long as you've got a good teacher you'll learn how to handle a weapon.

[Buslady]

Buslady: Sure you should be aware of what you are capable of doing when you learn a weapon, but in my opinion this has to do absolutely nothing with being high-graduated in any martial arts, though it can be helpful. And being able to do the finest martial arts tricks doesn't mean to get maturity or respect, because in almost every dojo ethics isn't a part of lessons and audit program, to get the next belt.

And a knife is a extension of the hand as well, so is a bat, so is a sword, but you don't actually need to do any martial art before learning how to handle these weapons.



I didnt make myself clear, the respect part was not gaining it for YOURSELF it's you gaining respect for the art and the tools used for the art. The former is just selfish if ya ask me.
Unfortunantely, with all these store-front "dojos" it seems to be a hunt for belts not growth. One of my son's friends is trying to say he's like a step below a black belt, brown I think? I'm like uh huh, sure...this kid is like 11 and to me that says he's going to a rip off, store front "dojo". From what I've learned poking around online, I hope I'm wrong, the majority doesnt teach other than the fighting, all the mind, body & spirit stuff which should be apart of it as a whole.

(crap i got ants in the kitchen,....gotta run!)

[Dinny]

3-6 months?! Are you gonna pay the generals?!!!

Ha! Oxi, re! I live in Britain so I get less time. If I enjoy it, I'll stay on for longer. I'm in Athina right now, though to watch our ethniki win the basketball world cup. Ellas Ole!

[Kid A]

And because most dojos are "store-front dojos", it absolutely isn't about the belts. If I finally got my black belt for the effort that almost all the other dan-bearers have to make, I would be ashamed of it.

[Katie]

It is a shame that most places push people through the ranks. It's all about money, I suppose. The higher your rank, the more it costs to test, etc.

I spent 16 years training before I acieved black belt status. That's right....16 years. Up until the car accident took my good mobility away from me earlier this year, I practiced 5 nights a week in two different diciplines. I fought in tournaments when I HAD to...but that was never the reasoning, just a consequence of picking up Tae Kwon Do in a Dojang that required upper ranks to participate in at least one tournament a year.

Now I am slow and tired alot. I guess my time has passed in the martial arts arena. Time for the new adventures of being settled down and raising kids.

[Kid A]

Now I am slow and tired alot. I guess my time has passed in the martial arts arena.
Your time maybe has passed in the martial sports and tournament arena, but a martial art is much more than just gymnastics and fitness which is the least important part of the whole thing.

[Katie]

oh, sure, I know that....

I'm a much better person for the other pieces of the martial ways I was taught. :D (I just miss my gym time sometimes)

[KonstantinosK]

...I hear about raising children, I hear so much stuff around here and I have no idea how old is everybody...

[Katie]

its a pretty good mix...but I would say the vast majority are Late teens and early to mid 20's.

and my child rearing has yet to be determined.....it's just something I'm looking forward to in the future ;)

[KonstantinosK]

oh ok.

I'm trying to learn some of you from here.

Well. Finally. Where can I find videos to download for practising sai?!!!http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/baby.gif

[Ecto Jedi]

oh ok.

I'm trying to learn some of you from here.

Well. Finally. Where can I find videos to download for practising sai?!!!http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/a0/baby.gif

I think the theme of the conversation has turned towards the fact that you shouldn't be learning to handle sais from some rinky-dink video.

[KonstantinosK]

Yeah true, but there is nobody here to teach sais you know...

So do you have a better option?!

[OA]

Yea, video learning can be good for some things: language, fitness/excercise, etc... I'm not sure if mastering sais would be a good one to learn from video...but i'm pretty sure there is video out there for that somewhere (there's a video on basically everything)...might can check ebay...

[Buslady]

And because most dojos are "store-front dojos", it absolutely isn't about the belts. If I finally got my black belt for the effort that almost all the other dan-bearers have to make, I would be ashamed of it.

around there maybe, but alot of them aren't here. Demura-sensei's certainly isn't a storefront.

There's this little storefront, probably the mot popular...I won't name it but it's pretty united in it's self defense....i guess..
but it's a dime a dozen, it's got the get a free gi with lessons all over it...kids go there all the time, most kids....it's the mcdonalds of the industry

well anyways...

back to the post...pint is you cannot learn a weapon without actually studying the art and having a sensei to show you what's what. you could hurt yourself going alone at it. I have 2 pair, i don't study(the fate of a busdriver, no time for my life) and i dont go playing like i know how to use them either (you guys should see the people on You tube...OMG! Idiots!) or go learn from a book or tape. (but i do know some history, what their uses are and the fact they're NOT a weapon for killing,sharp or any of that rubbish. Most for fic writing, i did research :D)
I recall a story of a guy who originally did the video thing, but then later took classes...the sensei had to get the guy to unlearn all the bad habits he gained by the video...i guess he was doing things wrong. The guy ended up like really high ranked and very very good at the art...not without years of training though.

[KonstantinosK]

Yea, video learning can be good for some things: language, fitness/excercise, etc... I'm not sure if mastering sais would be a good one to learn from video...but i'm pretty sure there is video out there for that somewhere (there's a video on basically everything)...might can check ebay...

ebay...I forgot that!

[KonstantinosK]

...the sensei had to get the guy to unlearn all the bad habits he gained by the video...

That's...that's not good. (!)

[Ecto Jedi]

That's...that's not good. (!)

No, doesn't sound like it.

[Kid A]

There's this little storefront, probably the mot popular...I won't name it but it's pretty united in it's self defense....i guess..
but it's a dime a dozen, it's got the get a free gi with lessons all over it...kids go there all the time, most kids....it's the mcdonalds of the industry
Oh I never heard of such thing. That really sounds bad.
but i do know some history, what their uses are and the fact they're NOT a weapon for killing,sharp or any of that rubbish
What did you find out? As far as I know they are -naturally, as a kobudo weapon- tools primary agriculture, like for piercing holes in the earth to put seeds in. But that is just a guess, that has never been evaluated I think.
Also sai were found in the hands of ancient indian godstatues. Didn't really find out more than that.

[Buslady]

Oh I never heard of such thing. That really sounds bad.

What did you find out? As far as I know they are -naturally, as a kobudo weapon- tools primary agriculture, like for piercing holes in the earth to put seeds in. But that is just a guess, that has never been evaluated I think.
Also sai were found in the hands of ancient indian godstatues. Didn't really find out more than that.



I've heard the agriculture reference, that it poked holes in the ground for seed; invented when farmers were banned from using weapons. There was also the one that it was modeled off a lady's hairpin. And that similar designs of the sai were found all over the world, so it's not a uniquely Japanese weapon.
I'd hafta go back and look at the stuff I looked at again to remember but it was all pretty interesting. There is this kata clip, if i can find the link I'll post it. You'll love it.

Wow I found a new page that says the sai is NOT a farm tool...says china is the origins, same with 'chucks. interesting
i read chucks were originally the nose band of the horse bridle. i dunno...
*looks for more new stuff*

OMG now this is irrisponsible, lets sell them as a package deal!
http://www.martialartsmart.net/tckb18115h.html

more ramblings...

Im watching these kata...it seems there's no flow or smoothness to them, it all looks like some choppy elaborate dance with a stick (a bo kata)...it's like you see someone who's native to the art's country, like a Japanese dude performing a bo kata...it doesnt feel so rushed even though there may be some fast action, there's some style to it. I dunno...

WOOHOO! I found the clip

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/002/index.html

Watch this guy, he doestn fly thru the kata like I've seen...he pauses between each move, there's nothing overly flashy but he's impressive. His movements are smooth and easy to watch. the guy is amazing.

[Ecto Jedi]

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/013/002/index.html

Watch this guy, he doestn fly thru the kata like I've seen...he pauses between each move, there's nothing overly flashy but he's impressive. His movements are smooth and easy to watch. the guy is amazing.

Wow, that's pretty impressive. It strikes me though that you don't use the blades much, do you?

[Buslady]

Wow, that's pretty impressive. It strikes me though that you don't use the blades much, do you?

you think they're there to slice someone? they're not sharp

[Ecto Jedi]

you think they're there to slice someone? they're not sharp

Not really, no...It just struck me as odd. Why not just fight with sticks if the blade is just for show and tell?

[Buslady]

if you see them against an opponent, then you can see how they're really used. sticks dont have a catch on each side of the middle shaft to snag blades and bo...


Not really, no...It just struck me as odd. Why not just fight with sticks if the blade is just for show and tell?

[KonstantinosK]

Thank you Buslady!

You know...when I see someone "making moves" without an opponent...it's just dancing. 1-2-3, 1-2-3...I can't understand the real use of this "choreography".

I see them fighting with an...invisible guy and I really don't get it!:ohwell:

[Kid A]

Oh can I download it as a full video and not as a fckin stream? I can see the first movements up to a quater of the full kata.
But it really looks nice, I would love to watch it over and think about the details if I just could. My teacher once showed me a similar kata and I recognize movements I think the performer makes maybe too short.

It's absolutely not dancing. But it is no fighting simulation either. The system is hidden in the movements.

[KonstantinosK]

The system is hidden in the movements.
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http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/_950/upset.gif

(what?!)
http://smilies.sofrayt.com/^/aiw/blush2.gif

I don't get it! It still looks like dancin to me. There is no opponent!!! So it's like a crazy guy doing some moves.

[Katie]

The Hojundo are just to practice your movements so that you can perfect them in the event that you actually have to use them. You want the movements to be second nature, not something you have to stop and think about.

you have to kind of think of it like...um...shadow boxing. The boxer has no opponent, yet still practices his moves as if he were in a real fight. This way when he is, he knows just how things should work.

The Hojundo are along the same principle as katas in Karate or poomse in Taekwondo. It's all training exercises.

[KonstantinosK]

The boxer has no opponent, yet still practices his moves as if he were in a real fight. This way when he is, he knows just how things should work.

Now I got it! :)

[Kid A]

The Hojundo are just to practice your movements so that you can perfect them in the event that you actually have to use them. You want the movements to be second nature, not something you have to stop and think about.

you have to kind of think of it like...um...shadow boxing. The boxer has no opponent, yet still practices his moves as if he were in a real fight. This way when he is, he knows just how things should work.

The Hojundo are along the same principle as katas in Karate or poomse in Taekwondo. It's all training exercises.
I absolutely disargree. Shadow boxing is for building up better reflexes and fitness. Kata are there to train movement and coordination and are containing a row of combat principles. Both are far, far away from simulating an authentic combat. Don't think that running a kata like no one else means any combat abilities. That is promised by many, but nonsene as long as you don't know the meaning of your movements ..which really requires hard thinking. And even then kata never is similar to combat in any way. It is like comparing aquajogging to the olympic hundered metres.
You take movements that can be used in combat out of the kata, but usually they will look a lot different than they do in kata.

[Buslady]

In the kata, movements will be formal and precise.
In actual combat, they'll be a little less formal because you're out to kick some hiney...not practice.

[Katie]

yaeh, Kid A, I agree it is nothing like real fighting, but...in my mind, it is what I think of while I am training.

I was taught to perform my hojundo and katas and poomse very slowly. to think about the movements, and to do it so often that it was second nature if I ever had to use them. I'm not a boxer, but to me, watching a boxer practice reminded me of my katas *shrugs* in using that analogy I was mostly was looking for an analogy he might have understood. He was thinking practicing without an opponet looked silly.

It was about patience, mechanics AND building muscle and the like. Especially with the Hojundo because quite a few of those weapons are heavier than you would think. I was sore for WEEKS in my arms and obliques when I first began the sai training (and Tonfa, and nunchaku, and kamas..and...)