Splinter has Nobody [Archive] - The Technodrome Forums

Sage Ninja

11-01-2006, 12:04 PM

You know I just thought of the fact that the turtles all have some one to relate to or has a friend to comfind in or some one that they have a crush on...except Splinter. :(

I mean we spend so much time analising the turtles complex relationships and how they are lacking in some form or another, but really the one character that has no one to relate to on any level is Splinter. He is a mutant too and unlike the turtles (who are the same age as each other, and can at least interact with one another) he has no one. I mean the other turtles have each other and can relate with each other on different levels, and in addition to that each turtle has at least one friend out side their family to interact with.

Raphael has Casey and to a lesser extent that Tricertron guy

Donatello has April, Leather Head, and Professor Honeycutt

Leonardo has Usagi

Michelangelo has Klunk

Splinter doesn't have any body. There isn't any body his own age or on the same maturity level or common interest that he can interact with. Who does he have? Four rambuctious teenagers who act as his sons not his friends (at least not on a peer level). Poor Splinter :(

iris

11-01-2006, 12:22 PM

Splinter doesn't have any body.
I thought you just said he had Nobody.

Sewer Bull

11-01-2006, 12:55 PM

Splinter has his soap operas.

KROW

11-01-2006, 12:59 PM

Splinter has friends on the astral plane. When he meditates, he not only clears his mind, but he drifts into another realm where his past affiliates dwell beyond death.

In the comics, he was met by a dying old man while meditating who begged him to save his son. In doing that, he gained two friends.

In the current show, he is friends with the Daimyo.

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think he had old acquaintances in the old toon.

Also, I always thought he had Leonardo, who basically emulates Splinter and strives to be like him. That's close, to some extent.

triplexxx

11-01-2006, 12:59 PM

gobo

11-01-2006, 01:33 PM

He's a Buddhist. He's inherently a loner.

iris

11-01-2006, 01:56 PM

He's a Buddhist. He's inherently a loner.
Well Buddhist philosophy discourages the fear being alone (http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1833) with oneself. Loneliness is a delusion of sorts. But the flipside is to be able to give freely of yourself to others. To have an open heart.

Perhaps in Splinter's philosophy he does not actively seek companionship because he already someone to whom he can give of himself. Several someones.

I would argue that he does have a lot of people with whom he could talk if he liked, as Krow said.

Buslady

11-01-2006, 03:59 PM

Raph should have introduced Mrs M to Splinter :D

Drtooth

11-02-2006, 02:09 PM

Or, you can think about it this way. Splinter didn't just get along with one person, but many. So he doesn't have nobody, he has everybody.

gobo

11-02-2006, 02:21 PM

Raph should have introduced Mrs M to Splinter :D
Pardon my ignorance, but who is Mrs. M?

Bevandera

11-02-2006, 02:28 PM

I believe Mrs. M is the blind woman that Raph helped in Touch and Go.

gobo

11-02-2006, 02:34 PM

Oh yeah! I only saw that ep once. I need to get my butt in gear and arrange those eps in chronological order on DVD. I'll never watch 'em otherwise... Don't worry marketers. I own them all. :P

Mr._Mutant_Man

11-02-2006, 02:58 PM

I second the "he has everyone" idea. The dude can't be lonely with four turtles and a reporter always running around.

Sage Ninja

11-04-2006, 01:28 PM

In the current show, he is friends with the Daimyo.

oh yes, I did forget about the Daimyo he is I guess around the same age as Splinter (assuming he is that flippen old considering the Daimyo is pretty up there) although as far as vitality and charisma I think Splinter is more energetic than the Daimyo, who apears more frail and weak.

Also, I always thought he had Leonardo, who basically emulates Splinter and strives to be like him. That's close, to some extent.

You know you have a good point he does have a very close relationship with Leonardo. And they do have something in common. How lucky for the both of them that they share the same passion, and Splinter does seem to have the vitality to still keep up with Leonardo still. Actually the father son relationship between Leo and Splinter is one of my favorite dynamics in the new toon. They are so alike and get along so well.

I may be remembering incorrectly, but I think he had old acquaintances in the old toon.

as far as old toon Splinter goes I think its even more tragic in his case than even in the new toon. Because Splinter was a human being who had friends and family, maybe some one he loved and a life and then he gets turned into a freak and now has lost all that because of what he is now. In New toon Splinter's case being turned into a mutant was a step up for him, but Old toon Splinter was a serious step back because he was an intellctual being that was turned into, basically a monster, and his life and his coicual is radically affected by it. And even if he has aquantices I don't think he can nessicarily go to their house and have tea with them. He basically has no one.

Maybe if he tried actually being a family man once in a while instead of meditating and being wrapped up in himself all the time, and if he made his sense of humor a little more respectful towards others, this wouldn't be the case for him.

that is about the most perplexing thing I have ever read. Care to expand on that, and explain what you mean exactly? Are you talking about New toon Splinter or old toon Splinter? I don't understand what you mean that Splinter isn't family man and that he is wrapped up into him self. Because if nothing else Splinter is all about his family. And your comment that he has a diisrespective sence of humour confuses me too. When has not shown respect for others?

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-04-2006, 03:48 PM

Maybe if he tried actually being a family man once in a while instead of meditating and being wrapped up in himself all the time, and if he made his sense of humor a little more respectful towards others, this wouldn't be the case for him.

What are you talking about. Family means more to Master Splinter than his own life. His meditation is just his hobby, something he does. You could call out Don for the same reason seeing as how his emerses himself in his science and tends to shut out everything around him. same with Mike and his video games, Leo and his training, and Raph and his loner attitude.

As for his humor, it's far from disrespectfull, he just has a very dry, sarcastic sense of humor.

Why do you have it in for Master Splinter?

Raph's Girl

11-04-2006, 04:23 PM

New Toon Splinter has friends! He has Ancient One (who is more or less his grandfather), He has the Damiyo... umm... yea

triplexxx

11-04-2006, 10:30 PM

Why do you have it in for Master Splinter?
OK, i admit my words about Master Splinter were too harsh. I do believe he treasures family greatly & does not actually "have nobody". However I do believe there are faults to Master splinter that tend to be overlooked. For instance i know meditation is only a hobby, but I do think he spends a few too many hours of the day doing it, the same problem the turtles may have with their own hobbies. Splinter serves two role in the turtles lives, "father" & "sensei", and sometimes I think he is a little too absorbed in his role as a "sensei" and not enough absorbed in his role as a "father". The least he could do is try to have a few more "real" conversations with his sons, or ask them to join him in meditation more often. Also, when Splinter deals with his sons by whacking them with his stick or slapping them in the face ("Shredder Strikes Part 2") I do believe he is somewhat out of line. If you were in his position, when you deal with your mortal enemies, violence is usually the only way to resolve conflicts; BUT when it comes to your own family, you deal with your problems by talking things out (raise your voice if necessary) and try to come up with positive ways to resolve fights, avoid them in the future and put them behind you, what you DON'T do is start hitting them in the back of the head with your hand or your cane, like when he did to Michaelangelo in "Bishop's Gambit" for saying "Shell, we're good" (I thought to myself, "Now that was completely unnecessary!"). My belief is the turtles learned this from him and that is why they do it to each other (especially michaelangelo) when they get on each others' nerves, and this would be a major area where he "went wrong". I also believe maybe he chooses "physical assault" as a form of discipline as a way of lashing out on account of his bitter past, and while I do believe he deserves pity for seeing his master murdered right before his eyes, that's still no excuse to take it out on his present family.
Because if nothing else Splinter is all about his family.
Well, maybe there is something else. If I remember the original comic book storyline correctly, the primary reason Master Splinter began training his sons in the first place was so one day they could avenge his master; yet in the new toon, Splinter clearly tells his sons in the flashbacks of them as kids that he never wants them "going topside", and when they're teenagers he still discourages it. Now I believe when a family wants to train their children at an extremely early age (in martial arts, to be a bodybuilder, etc.), they most definitely need some outrageously provacative type of motivation (and to do it simply to pass on a family tradition is not enough). When Splinter said in "Shredder strikes part 1" that he hoped the day his sons learned who the Shredder is would never come, I honestly didn't believe he was telling the whole truth. Now while I'm sure Master Splinter's intentions for his sons' lives are good, I believe his motives are somewhat foul.
When I said Splinter was "wrapped up in himself" I was thinking that maybe he was a little too concerned with his own life problems and not so much concerned with those of other innocent people. For instance, whenever a situation came up on the surface which involved Shredder, this was the only time I remember Splinter encouraging his sons to go topside and fight, he didn't at first but later on he did. Now while the shredder was indeed a crimelord in New York and taking him out would most likely do the whole city a favor, think about this: when the Triceraton invasion came along and all those innocent people were kidnapped (April and Casey included) and brought to central park, splinter discouraged his sons from leaving the lair to be of any help, but they made the noble decision and went anyway, and in this case ended up doing the whole world a favor, & if the fugitoid hadn't come back and triggered the crisis all over again, eventually leading to the turtles being held at knifepoint in Bishop's lab, Splinter would have never gotten himself involved and helped out.
And your comment that he has a diisrespective sence of humour confuses me too. When has not shown respect for others?
How about in "Secret Origin part 1" when Michaelangelo was trying to grab the riceballs in vain and splinter said "There is a lesson to be learned here, but I'm enjoying this too much to think of what it is?" I know he loves his sons, but personally, I don't find it respectful to laugh at other people's expense, no matter how slight an expense it is. Also, in Fast Forward during the video game episode, when he lectured Cody about not adventuring when cody is very smart and he actually saved the turtles' lives that episode I thought to myself, "Geez Splinter, give him a f***ing break, he saved your sons' lives and he's not a careless, helpess fool, so don't f***ing treat him like one!"
Personally, if I were one of Splinter's sons, I sure wouldn't be proud to end up like him.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-04-2006, 11:50 PM

Give me a break. So Master Splinter whaps them over the head when they get out of line. Did you ever think they may deserve it at times. Master Splinter has to be stern, to keep the TMNT strong. He knows when to be a sensei and a father. It's not like the old toon where Splinter was more of a teacher. In the new toon and comics he is the father figure. Why do you think he calls them his sons.

Well, maybe there is something else. If I remember the original comic book storyline correctly, the primary reason Master Splinter began training his sons in the first place was so one day they could avenge his master; yet in the new toon, Splinter clearly tells his sons in the flashbacks of them as kids that he never wants them "going topside", and when they're teenagers he still discourages it. Now I believe when a family wants to train their children at an extremely early age (in martial arts, to be a bodybuilder, etc.), they most definitely need some outrageously provacative type of motivation (and to do it simply to pass on a family tradition is not enough). When Splinter said in "Shredder strikes part 1" that he hoped the day his sons learned who the Shredder is would never come, I honestly didn't believe he was telling the whole truth. Now while I'm sure Master Splinter's intentions for his sons' lives are good, I believe his motives are somewhat foul.
When I said Splinter was "wrapped up in himself" I was thinking that maybe he was a little too concerned with his own life problems and not so much concerned with those of other innocent people. For instance, whenever a situation came up on the surface which involved Shredder, this was the only time I remember Splinter encouraging his sons to go topside and fight, he didn't at first but later on he did. Now while the shredder was indeed a crimelord in New York and taking him out would most likely do the whole city a favor, think about this: when the Triceraton invasion came along and all those innocent people were kidnapped (April and Casey included) and brought to central park, splinter discouraged his sons from leaving the lair to be of any help, but they made the noble decision and went anyway, and in this case ended up doing the whole world a favor, & if the fugitoid hadn't come back and triggered the crisis all over again, eventually leading to the turtles being held at knifepoint in Bishop's lab, Splinter would have never gotten himself involved and helped out.

Yes, in the comic Spliner originally trained the TMNT for vengance. But you gotta remember, the comic was never planned to last beyond one issue. Thats why as the series went on he bacmae more gentle.

As for the new toon, did you ever think that Splinter discouraged the turtles from going topside to save people is because, THEYRE NOT SUPERHEROES. He was trying to keep his sons safe, not having them get invovled in matter that would get them killed. That shows he cares, unlike someone like Professor X who sends his students off to die. As for the Shredder that was diffrent. One, this was a personal matter. And two, that Turtles already started the fight, so they had to finish it.

Master Splinter isn't disrespectful or self absorbed. Hes far from it, there has never been one incarnation of Splinter that was like that. And don't you remeber in Shredder Strikes part 1 where he saved the Turtles from getting killed by the Shredder, or when he helped reunite them in that same episode. Also in Same as it Never Was when Mike said Splinter gave his life saving them. Or in Exodus when he took that electrocution for Mikey.

Masked Ninja

11-05-2006, 12:09 AM

Just because we don't see too much squishy family moments doesn't mean there IS none of it. Episodes of 100% cute father-son bonding would send the kiddies to sleep, and however mature the new toon was (*sigh*) overall, they still had to keep it a little actionified.

Just the way the Turtles treat Splinter attests to the fact that he is a caring father who has earned their respect as sons.

And I like his dry sense of humor. He's a lot like MY dad, actually...

triplexxx

11-05-2006, 12:25 AM

Give me a break. So Master Splinter whaps them over the head when they get out of line. Did you ever think they may deserve it at times. Master Splinter has to be stern, to keep the TMNT strong. Master Splinter isn't disrespectful or self absorbed.
No, I don't think they deserve it; and even though they aren't your average family, it doesn't make physical assault any more appropriate a way to deal with family; he can be strict,keep them strong, and discipline them without doing that. And I'm not saying Splinter is self-absorbed, but i did think it was a little peculiar that the only enemy he eventually desired them to face is the one he had a personal matter with, and I have seen him be disrespectful once or twice when someone didn't deserve it, some examples I've already given.

Also, I don't have anything against the show being actionfied, I know darn well it's all about that, but some of the family moments they have had i found to be a bit sour, and more so than they had to be.

Raph's Girl

11-05-2006, 09:35 AM

Big deal.. So Splinter is strict at times. But that only cuz he cares about his family.

Yes he's a dick and hides things (like in the Ninja Tribunal storyline where he reveals he knew about the true Shredder all along. Uh...like he couldn't have told them in the fraking first place?! ) to supposadly protect em. But there are things he should have revealed over the years (like oh I don't know....the Ninja Tribunal! :P ).

Even in the comics after Splinter's death they're finding out things they didn't know. Like Leo accidentally stumbling on to the Battle Nexus (where he's currently befriending Shredder/Oroku Yoshi).

So um...yea... Splinter's a dick but he's still a loving father...altho with his love for soaps...perhaps he's the mother too. :lol:

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-05-2006, 08:37 PM

triplexxx

11-05-2006, 11:43 PM

By the way your saying pysical assult, youre sounding like he just goes around kicking the **** out of them on a daily basis (that's just during training). It's just a slap over the head, you mean to tell me you never did that whenever someone said or did something stupid. I do it to my cousins, doesn't mean I'm mean or abusive, I'm just setting them straight.
Maybe I used the wrong terminology, when I said "physical assault", the slaps were what I was referring to, not their training. And NO actually, i never slapped people behind the head for doing something stupid, because I DO consider it mean and also immature; that's one of the areas where the new TMNT show is not "more mature". Slapping/spanking/hitting as a form of discipline only makes people want to hit you back, and rather than setting someone straight, I believe it more likely promotes further rebellious, possibly violent, or even suicidal (if it goes on long enough), behavior. And like I said before, hitting is how one deals with his mortal enemies, NOT his family (no offense). The only time I've felt right about hitting people is if they hit me first and were in no way related to me, otherwise I settle it with simple, straight conversation.
Big deal.. So Splinter is strict at times. But that only cuz he cares about his family.
In case you misinterpreted me, I didn't imply that Splinter shouldn't be strict. What I implied was splinter should be strict "with his voice" NOT "with his cane/hands".

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-06-2006, 02:55 AM

Maybe I used the wrong terminology, when I said "physical assault", the slaps were what I was referring to, not their training. And NO actually, i never slapped people behind the head for doing something stupid, because I DO consider it mean and also immature; that's one of the areas where the new TMNT show is not "more mature". Slapping/spanking/hitting as a form of discipline only makes people want to hit you back, and rather than setting someone straight, I believe it more likely promotes further rebellious, possibly violent, or even suicidal (if it goes on long enough), behavior. And like I said before, hitting is how one deals with his mortal enemies, NOT his family (no offense). The only time I've felt right about hitting people is if they hit me first and were in no way related to me, otherwise I settle it with simple, straight conversation.

:ohwell:

Okay.......now tell me. Have any of the turtles developed anyone these signs. No, So what the fudge is the big fudging deal. Sure he's whapped them upside the head on occasions. But have they become better people? Yes! So he's obviously done something right. Now I'm not saying thats the end result of the slapping, but I'm just saying. Him being strict but caring turned them into the TMNT we know today.

Sage Ninja

11-07-2006, 12:29 PM

ok you know what triplexxx, I think in some instances you are being a little nit-picky but you do touch upon some very good points about Splinter. He does seem to have his faults and his actions can seem questionable to say the very least. In your post you touch upon three things about Splinter that I think are valid points that suggest some selfish or not quite so noble behavior on Splinter's part.

And they are Splinter acts as both father and sensie to the turtles but some times the role of sensie over shadows the father role, to a point that makes him take unfair risks with his sons lives. And you are right I think we as fans have the tendasay to over look Splinter's actions at times because he is such a nice rat, but there are times when I Splinter gets more absorbed with being the sensei than being the father. And I'm not singling out the new toon Splinter, it shows in the most mediums of his character.

Well, maybe there is something else. If I remember the original comic book storyline correctly, the primary reason Master Splinter began training his sons in the first place was so one day they could avenge his master; yet in the new toon, Splinter clearly tells his sons in the flashbacks of them as kids that he never wants them "going topside", and when they're teenagers he still discourages it. Now I believe when a family wants to train their children at an extremely early age (in martial arts, to be a bodybuilder, etc.), they most definitely need some outrageously provacative type of motivation (and to do it simply to pass on a family tradition is not enough). When Splinter said in "Shredder strikes part 1" that he hoped the day his sons learned who the Shredder is would never come, I honestly didn't believe he was telling the whole truth. Now while I'm sure Master Splinter's intentions for his sons' lives are good, I believe his motives are somewhat foul.
When I said Splinter was "wrapped up in himself" I was thinking that maybe he was a little too concerned with his own life problems and not so much concerned with those of other innocent people. For instance, whenever a situation came up on the surface which involved Shredder, this was the only time I remember Splinter encouraging his sons to go topside and fight, he didn't at first but later on he did.

You have some good points here in this post. Splinters actions toward his sons are bit contradictive. He trained them to fight so that they could be ninjas and know the art of invisabilty so they can't be spotted easily becasue they are freaks of nature. So him teaching them how to be ninjas could be excused by his desire to teach them to be able to move around undectected by the general public so they do not get kidnapped by sciencetists and dissected. But then why did he teach them such advanced forms of nintisu? He could very well have taught them some moves in order to protect them selves if they get discoved, but lets face it, be brought them up like warriors and to act as warriors.

Lets face it, its ommitted in the new that he wanted brought them up to avenge yoshi aganist Shredder, but even though Splinter in the new says he didn't want them to ever meet Shredder, itsw clear that he trained them for the very purpose of vengence. there is no getting around that. So Splinter's attentions toweard the turtles are a little questionable.

Buslady

11-07-2006, 05:31 PM

Pardon my ignorance, but who is Mrs. M?

Mrs Morrison raph befriended when he was being chased by Foot dudes.

Sage Ninja

11-08-2006, 12:42 PM

Drtooth

11-08-2006, 02:20 PM

I second the "he has everyone" idea. The dude can't be lonely with four turtles and a reporter always running around.

And a crazy New York vigillante wanna be, and the Damio, and Usagi Yojimbo... etc.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-09-2006, 05:40 PM

Ok to continue on with what I was saying earlier (I had to go to class so i had to cut my self short) was that Triplexxx did point out some stuff about Splinter that isn't exactly noble. I think to an extent Triplexxx is right. It does appear that Splinter has less problems of the turtles going after Shredder than any other villian. Splinter goes from not wanting the turtles to have any thing at all to do with the Shredder to wanting them to take him down for murduring Yoshi.

And I under stand that Shredder was a menace that needed to be stopped but in Exodus was it really nessary for all of them to go after the shredder the way that they did. He was leaving the planet and not going to bother the earth or the TMNT any more, but Splinter wanted to take him out. Splinter was clearly looking for vengence and they boys where all about to sacrifice their lives in order to do it. Now we can all say that the turtles where willing and Shredder was evil and Slinter deserved to get his vengence, but the point is---was it fair of Splinter to raise the turtles as ninjas with the objective of getting revenge on Shredder? I mean putting ninja protacal and honor of avenging ones master aside, was it right for Splinter to use the turtles in this way? I mean there is doubt that he loves them but in a perverse sort of way his treatment of the boys is a bit cold blooded, and it had consequences on Leonardo because he took the brunt of the responciablity of his family nearly getting killed.

Let me address the Exodus point.

1. Shredder was going to kill the Utroms, friends of the TMNT, why wouldn't they want to stop him?

2. You did know that once Shredder finished with the Utroms, he was going to come back to earth and conqer it right?

Also, before you blame Master Splinter for the Exodus thing, Leo and the rest of the TMNT insisted on helping, Splinter didn't force him.

You and triplexxx are putting so much heat on Master Splinter, but his treatment of the TMNT is nowhere near cold blooded. If your gonna come down on Splinter, you might as well come down on Kakashi, Gai, and all the other teachers of Naruto. But I digress.

Master Splinter has a tough job. He has to be a sensei and a father, and he handles it perfectly. He's gotta be tough on his sons, to keep them strong warriors. But he is also there for his sons emotionally. He wouldn't put his sons in extremley dangerous situations all willy-nilly.

Splinter goes from not wanting the turtles to have any thing at all to do with the Shredder to wanting them to take him down for murduring Yoshi.

Granted he trained the boys to kill Shredder, but didn't want them going up against him at that time, but think about it. The TMNT weren't ready to face the Shredder yet. And it was apparant from the fac that Splinter had to intervine to save them from getting killed. They could take the Foot, but no Shredder himself. Thats probably why he didn't want them going up against him yet.

Master Splinter doesn't let his two roles overlap, if they did, don't you think the Turtles would have left him long ago.

triplexxx

11-09-2006, 05:58 PM

Master Splinter doesn't let his two roles overlap, if they did, don't you think the Turtles would have left him long ago.
Where could they possibly have gone, it's not like they had a choice in this matter.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-09-2006, 07:40 PM

Where could they possibly have gone, it's not like they had a choice in this matter.

Yes, yes they did. The sewers in New York are vast. They could have found a new lair.

Sage Ninja

11-10-2006, 12:30 PM

Let me address the Exodus point.

1. Shredder was going to kill the Utroms, friends of the TMNT, why wouldn't they want to stop him?

2. You did know that once Shredder finished with the Utroms, he was going to come back to earth and conqer it right?

Also, before you blame Master Splinter for the Exodus thing, Leo and the rest of the TMNT insisted on helping, Splinter didn't force him.

You and triplexxx are putting so much heat on Master Splinter, but his treatment of the TMNT is nowhere near cold blooded. If your gonna come down on Splinter, you might as well come down on Kakashi, Gai, and all the other teachers of Naruto. But I digress.

Master Splinter has a tough job. He has to be a sensei and a father, and he handles it perfectly. He's gotta be tough on his sons, to keep them strong warriors. But he is also there for his sons emotionally. He wouldn't put his sons in extremley dangerous situations all willy-nilly.

Granted he trained the boys to kill Shredder, but didn't want them going up against him at that time, but think about it. The TMNT weren't ready to face the Shredder yet. And it was apparant from the fac that Splinter had to intervine to save them from getting killed. They could take the Foot, but no Shredder himself. Thats probably why he didn't want them going up against him yet.

Master Splinter doesn't let his two roles overlap, if they did, don't you think the Turtles would have left him long ago.

Ok, let me first say that I am not trying to bash Splinter, or come down hard on his character or be overly harsh. I was just commenting that despite the fact that triplexxx was being rather nit-picky about some of his/her examples about Splinter that he/she did touch upon some good points about Splinter's character--in general, not just in the New toon incarnation of him. And that is because of his vendette against Shredder he trained the turtles to fight and kill him for vengence. What I was asking every one, was to be opened minded enough to look at this aspect of Splinter and the reasons why he trained the turtles for this purpose, if whether or not he was acted a bit unfairly toward them as people to raise them to carry out a vendette.

Thats all. I'm not exactly condeming or condoning Splinter, because in thruth I like Splinter and his character and do belive he is a good father, thought, like any character Splinter has his faults and isn't perfect, and it could be discussed.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-10-2006, 03:56 PM

Ok, let me first say that I am not trying to bash Splinter, or come down hard on his character or be overly harsh. I was just commenting that despite the fact that triplexxx was being rather nit-picky about some of his/her examples about Splinter that he/she did touch upon some good points about Splinter's character--in general, not just in the New toon incarnation of him. And that is because of his vendette against Shredder he trained the turtles to fight and kill him for vengence. What I was asking every one, was to be opened minded enough to look at this aspect of Splinter and the reasons why he trained the turtles for this purpose, if whether or not he was acted a bit unfairly toward them as people to raise them to carry out a vendette.

Thats all. I'm not exactly condeming or condoning Splinter, because in thruth I like Splinter and his character and do belive he is a good father, thought, like any character Splinter has his faults and isn't perfect, and it could be discussed.

I am trying to be open minded. But look at it this way, he did train the TMNT to avenge Master Yoshi, but think,if thats all he raised them for, wouldn't he have discarded them as soon as they offed Shredder?

Demero

11-13-2006, 05:29 PM

I think Splinter is content as he is and, like Yoda in Star Wars, doesnt need to rely on others to be happy.

Sage Ninja

11-21-2006, 01:17 PM

I am trying to be open minded. But look at it this way, he did train the TMNT to avenge Master Yoshi, but think,if thats all he raised them for, wouldn't he have discarded them as soon as they offed Shredder?

That is very true. And I have no doubt in my mind that Splinter loves his sons very much. Because he has shown that he has in every single medium that has depicted the TMNT (including the old toon though people may refute that). However, and I know am about to get flamed for adding this point, the conflict between Splinter and Shredder was between them and only them. I know that Splinter was old but if he wanted to avenge Yoshi's death why didn't he do it him self? Instead of bringing four innocents into the vendette that had nothing to do with them into it?

I bring this question up because I came upon a site called Dissected and it has a section about Splinter. Now mind you the site is exclusively is about the old toon, the one where Splinter is actually Hamato Yoshi and gets turned into a rat by Shredder. And it is also stated that much of the content is just "tongue-in-cheek" observations that aren't to be taken to seriously but it does seem to have some good aguments about Old Toon Splinter. Here is the Link:

http://www.geocities.com/tmntdissected/splinter.htm

Just read it all the way though, and remeber that the site is talking abvout Old Toon Splinter. And that the writer of the site isn't being entirely serious.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

11-21-2006, 03:50 PM

That is very true. And I have no doubt in my mind that Splinter loves his sons very much. Because he has shown that he has in every single medium that has depicted the TMNT (including the old toon though people may refute that). However, and I know am about to get flamed for adding this point, the conflict between Splinter and Shredder was between them and only them. I know that Splinter was old but if he wanted to avenge Yoshi's death why didn't he do it him self? Instead of bringing four innocents into the vendette that had nothing to do with them into it?

I bring this question up because I came upon a site called Dissected and it has a section about Splinter. Now mind you the site is exclusively is about the old toon, the one where Splinter is actually Hamato Yoshi and gets turned into a rat by Shredder. And it is also stated that much of the content is just "tongue-in-cheek" observations that aren't to be taken to seriously but it does seem to have some good aguments about Old Toon Splinter. Here is the Link:

http://www.geocities.com/tmntdissected/splinter.htm

Just read it all the way though, and remeber that the site is talking abvout Old Toon Splinter. And that the writer of the site isn't being entirely serious.

I took a look at the article, and your right, it is all about the all toon. It's obvious this persons knowledge of the TMNT ends there. If he bothered the read the comic, he would see that Splinter wasn't as "kick butt" as he was in the cartoons. It's no wonder why he would train his sons to help him carry out his vendetta. But he's not a bad guy, he does'nt stand in the way of his sons intrest. He also does'nt favor one over the other. The dude should read the comics more, or watch the new toon. He would see not only does he train Leo, but also helps Raph with his anger issues, let's Don continue his quest for knowledge, and in that short story in the back of Tales issue 25, encourages Mikey's artistic nature.

If Splinter only used his sons for vengence, he would have cast them off after they killed the Shredder. Splinter loves his sons, he didn't use them as tools, he would never do that, otherwise he would be just like the Shredder. Granted, in the comic he trained the Turtles to avenge Master Yoshi, however, it's not like their childhood was filled with non stop training, otherwise, the Turtles would be alot different, they would be more cold and merciless.

aabxx

12-03-2006, 01:05 AM

No, I don't think they deserve it; and even though they aren't your average family, it doesn't make physical assault any more appropriate a way to deal with family; he can be strict,keep them strong, and discipline them without doing that. And I'm not saying Splinter is self-absorbed, but i did think it was a little peculiar that the only enemy he eventually desired them to face is the one he had a personal matter with, and I have seen him be disrespectful once or twice when someone didn't deserve it, some examples I've already given.

Oh for god's sake. Mankind has been using "physical assault" as a way of discipline since mankind became mankind. It is still used in most of the world I would reckon... do you really believe yourself to be more civilized than the billions of parents who've used physical punishment over the history of mankind? Do you know better than all of them how they should've raised their children?

My father used to physically discipline me. The same can be said about many of my friends. It taught us discipline and to stay out of trouble and to know our boundaries so that the family could function harmonically. And I've never heard any of them complain. And most of us had great childhoods.

Physical punishment works. It does not ALWAYS work, but nothing does. It's a good and proven way through the course of so many years that it sounds insulting to even suggest that it's wrong... even more so when you consider it's only been in vogue for a few decades in some parts of the world...

But the other points you made about Splinter I can agree more with. Splinter is not a saint, and he has his faults. I mean come on, he didn't HAVE to put his sons through countless hours of hard (and dangerous) training to become lethal shadow warriors. So why did he? I do believe revenge was the main motivation, although that might've changed over the years when he grew wiser. I mean, he started off as a rat... probably, as a rat, he did not know much about concepts such as ethics and honor and how to raise children (and why), and the only thoughts he might've had were those of revenging his master. Therefore, he could have adopted the turtles not out of kindness (to protect, raise and teach), but more so to use them as his tools of revenge?

triplexxx

12-03-2006, 02:25 AM

Warhorse

12-03-2006, 12:37 PM

I apologize if I sounded overly touchy about the subject of physical punishment, it's just that I grew up in a home & family where violence is never used to resolve conflicts, and we too manage to be a happy, functional family. I do understand that for some, "physical discipline" is looked at as useful, necessary & acceptable; while others look at it as useless, unnecessary & immoral. My POV just happens to be the latter.

I have recently just started to watch the new toon, and in most cases, I love it. Cases I don't like it, Splinter's unrelenting use of his cane on Michelangelo. It bothers me. I mean, if Splinter is still having to use his cane to so call "knock some sense in Mikey's brain" then the method is apparently ineffective, because he seems to be doing it all the time.

As for the way Splinter is training his sons, I think he is doing the best to his knowledge and experience. He doesn't have access to great schools, or for the Turtles to excell in other spheres because of the situations.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

12-03-2006, 03:21 PM

I have recently just started to watch the new toon, and in most cases, I love it. Cases I don't like it, Splinter's unrelenting use of his cane on Michelangelo. It bothers me. I mean, if Splinter is still having to use his cane to so call "knock some sense in Mikey's brain" then the method is apparently ineffective, because he seems to be doing it all the time.

As for the way Splinter is training his sons, I think he is doing the best to his knowledge and experience. He doesn't have access to great schools, or for the Turtles to excell in other spheres because of the situations.

I don't think he's bothered by it. After all, everyone does it. Splinter, Leo, Raph, Don, even that Tribunal member.

Warhorse

12-03-2006, 03:33 PM

I don't think he's bothered by it. After all, everyone does it. Splinter, Leo, Raph, Don, even that Tribunal member.

Mikey is also a cartoon. It's just the idea that Splinter is almost as close as the ideal mentor/parental guardian/etc that has been conjured up. The act of him whacking Mikey all the time seems a bit out of the character compared to what I am used to.

It's actually funny when one of the brothers do it, but it just seems so wrong when Splinter does it. It's funny when he throws a phone book to get Mikey's attention, but it's not so funny when Splinter canes him in the head for being annoying. That in itself is kind of annoying as a viewer.

Besides, with The Battle Nexus aside, when is Mikey gonna get a chance to shine? He's always getting his thunder stolen from Leo, Raph or Don.

triplexxx

12-03-2006, 04:02 PM

Besides, with The Battle Nexus aside, when is Mikey gonna get a chance to shine? He's always getting his thunder stolen from Leo, Raph or Don.
Well, he did end up getting two statues erected in his honor in two different dimensions, not to mention a trophy & medal for the battle Nexus, which after Grudge Match he had by every means rightfully earned. Truth to tell, he's really the only turtle that's received any visible awards for his efforts in fighting. Who knows, maybe he is annoyed by everybody whapping him, and uses his gloating about the Battle Nexus as a form of retaliation & a way to keep his own spirit up.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

12-03-2006, 08:18 PM

Mikey is also a cartoon. It's just the idea that Splinter is almost as close as the ideal mentor/parental guardian/etc that has been conjured up. The act of him whacking Mikey all the time seems a bit out of the character compared to what I am used to.

It's actually funny when one of the brothers do it, but it just seems so wrong when Splinter does it. It's funny when he throws a phone book to get Mikey's attention, but it's not so funny when Splinter canes him in the head for being annoying. That in itself is kind of annoying as a viewer.

Besides, with The Battle Nexus aside, when is Mikey gonna get a chance to shine? He's always getting his thunder stolen from Leo, Raph or Don.

Thats ridiculous, Splinter deserves the same rights as the other characters to whap Mikey upside the head. Besides, it's not like he does it visciously, it's just a whap on the head, nothing more.

Sage Ninja

12-11-2006, 04:27 PM

But the other points you made about Splinter I can agree more with. Splinter is not a saint, and he has his faults. I mean come on, he didn't HAVE to put his sons through countless hours of hard (and dangerous) training to become lethal shadow warriors. So why did he? I do believe revenge was the main motivation, although that might've changed over the years when he grew wiser. I mean, he started off as a rat... probably, as a rat, he did not know much about concepts such as ethics and honor and how to raise children (and why), and the only thoughts he might've had were those of revenging his master. Therefore, he could have adopted the turtles not out of kindness (to protect, raise and teach), but more so to use them as his tools of revenge?

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I was trying to make about Splinter. The very fact that he trained the boys as ninjas is a bit weird. I truelly believe that his main motivation when he first took them in was revenge, and not all together out of the kindness of his heart. He had ulterior motives I'm pretty sure. He was going to be their sensei and they where going to be his ninjas and avenge Yoshi's death. But I think very quickly he came to love them as his own children, like any one would when you are essentially raising young innocent (and might I add adorable) children. Hence why he is so concerned about there well being.

And as to his use of physical disiplign? I am all for it. The turtles have a tendacy to be head strong and willful, and I'm sorry lectures and extra chores as punishment wouldn't leave the impression he probably wants to make. The turtles acting out can have serious consequences and lead to them eighter being discovered or killed, so I have no problem with Splinter canning them in the head when they act reckless or disobey. He needs to get the message through some how and a good whap upside the head with a blunt object would probably make a more lasting impression on them than being confined to their rooms and having their TV privliges taken away.

Warhorse

12-11-2006, 06:11 PM

Yeah, that was pretty much the point I was trying to make about Splinter. The very fact that he trained the boys as ninjas is a bit weird. I truelly believe that his main motivation when he first took them in was revenge, and not all together out of the kindness of his heart. He had ulterior motives I'm pretty sure. He was going to be their sensei and they where going to be his ninjas and avenge Yoshi's death. But I think very quickly he came to love them as his own children, like any one would when you are essentially raising young innocent (and might I add adorable) children. Hence why he is so concerned about there well being.

And as to his use of physical disiplign? I am all for it. The turtles have a tendacy to be head strong and willful, and I'm sorry lectures and extra chores as punishment wouldn't leave the impression he probably wants to make. The turtles acting out can have serious consequences and lead to them eighter being discovered or killed, so I have no problem with Splinter canning them in the head when they act reckless or disobey. He needs to get the message through some how and a good whap upside the head with a blunt object would probably make a more lasting impression on them than being confined to their rooms and having their TV privliges taken away.

I agree with your statment here, in that Splinter does have to use extra measures to keep they guys in line, just because of the nature in which Splinter is raising them.

But I'm curious about this. In season 4 of the new TMNT, Leonardo and SPlinter are practicing, and arguing at the same time. Leo was agitated, and lost his temper and literally kicked Splinter's ass and cut him across the head, despite Splinter telling Leo that he was not himself. After that, Splinter sends him off to train with the Ancient One.

But heaven forbid if Mikey says something annoying or slap stick. Whack on the head for him.

Sage Ninja

12-14-2006, 06:55 PM

In season 4 of the new TMNT, Leonardo and SPlinter are practicing, and arguing at the same time. Leo was agitated, and lost his temper and literally kicked Splinter's ass and cut him across the head, despite Splinter telling Leo that he was not himself. After that, Splinter sends him off to train with the Ancient One.

But heaven forbid if Mikey says something annoying or slap stick. Whack on the head for him.

completely diffrent situations that can't be compared. Leonardo was in a state of mental and emotinal unrest and Splinter knew this that is why he was handleing the situation in a diffrent manner. Also this may be up for debate but I think Splinter let Leo hack at him so he could shock Leo out of his attitude. And it worked. Splinter is very shrewd and handles his sons problems in diffrent ways. And that was the best way to handle it.

Splinter may have his faults but he doesn't show favortism toward Leonardo over the other turtles he treats them all fairly for the most part. Had it been Mikey in a similar sitaution I doubt he would have canned him in the head. Besides Mikey mostly gets canned because he is eighther acting silly or acting out, so i have no problem with him smacking him in the head. I do, however, have a problem with his brother whapping him.

triplexxx

12-14-2006, 08:41 PM

Also this may be up for debate but I think Splinter let Leo hack at him so he could shock Leo out of his attitude. And it worked.
You know, I think you may be right, I think that's exactly what Splinter did.
Splinter is very shrewd and handles his sons problems in diffrent ways. And that was the best way to handle it.Splinter may have his faults but he doesn't show favortism toward Leonardo over the other turtles he treats them all fairly for the most part. Had it been Mikey in a similar sitaution I doubt he would have canned him in the head.
This is true, any good father does not pick favorites among his sons. And the way he deals with his sons' problems doesn't depend on which son it is, but what type of problem it is.
P.S. What if one day they do decide to put Michaelangelo in the same position as Leonardo was here? It's unlikely, but I think it'd be extremely interesting.

Warhorse

12-14-2006, 11:16 PM

This thread is funny. It started out as why Splinter doesn't have a significant other, to debating about his handling of certain situations.

I just hope one day there is a time when Mikey says something slick, and ducks or gets the upperhand of whoever attempts to try and correct his tongue.
I just saw Time Trevails, where the girl with the time sector drops in on the Turtles and wisks them away to an alternate demension. Mikey starts to go on a ramble on how they were just minding their own business, not bothering anyone when the sh!t happens to them, and why all the bad crap has to always happen to them. After he let all his frustrations out, Raph comes to him and asks "Are you finnished?" instead of clobering Mikey. Now that scene wasn't bad and was funny at the same time. To me anyways.

Sage Ninja

12-18-2006, 04:18 PM

This is true, any good father does not pick favorites among his sons.

exactly. That is what I was trying to get across with my above statement about Splinter. And despite what a lot of fans may think I don't feel Splinter shows Leonardo special attention or gives him better treatment. I think that with Splinter and leo, they just have a common intrest that makes them close to one another. In fact in some ways I think Splinter is a bit more heavy handed with Leo because he shows the most asperations to ninjitsu training than the others.

he deals with his sons' problems doesn't depend on which son it is, but what type of problem it is.

I disagree with this. I think what son that has the problem affects how Splinter handles them. You have to remember that the turtles are indivduals and have different personalities and temperments. So I think Splinter would handle one of the turtles very differently from another even if they had the same problem. Actually I think each turtle would react diffrently to the same problem. For instance I doubt very much had, Donatello been in the same emotional state as Leonardo, that he would have goaded him into a fight and gotten him to explode like that. In fact Donatello may not have even turned all feral like Leonardo had in same situation. So I believe Splinter would use a diffrent approach. And you notice he used several with Leo before going to the extreme. First he tried talking to him, then getting Usagi to talk sence into him, and then a more agressive approach. You really have to give Splinter props for is resourcefulness...although I may be reading to much into the whole "sword hacking incident" than I should.

P.S. What if one day they do decide to put Michaelangelo in the same position as Leonardo was here? It's unlikely, but I think it'd be extremely interesting.

eh? I'm not sure I know what you are asking on this one. Can you eleborate a bit more on this question triplexxx?

Warhorse, I'll get to responding to your post later because I have a few things to say about it. But I gotta go now.

triplexxx

12-18-2006, 05:05 PM

eh? I'm not sure I know what you are asking on this one. Can you eleborate a bit more on this question triplexxx?
What I meant was: What would it be like if they put Michaelangelo in an angst-fest like Leonardo was in the first half of Season 4?

Masked Ninja

12-18-2006, 05:21 PM

That would be interesting... wonder how they'd get him in such a position, though. I don't think Mikey would crack until he'd lost someone dear to him. Like if Bad Day were real, and he'd lost Klunk... or certainly a brother he felt he'd had the power to save...

The think with Mikey is, his personality doesn't make for "angst-fest" the way Leonardo's does. Something seriously bad would have to happen to break his spirit - think SAINW. That could arguably be an "angsty" Mikey... at least one who's lost all hope.

As to the original thread topic... I do have to say that everytime I see the thread title, I think of Splinter holding hands with Nobody... and then I have to spend several minutes getting that image OUT. :P

Warhorse

12-18-2006, 07:32 PM

exactly.
I disagree with this. I think what son that has the problem affects how Splinter handles them. You have to remember that the turtles are indivduals and have different personalities and temperments. So I think Splinter would handle one of the turtles very differently from another even if they had the same problem. Actually I think each turtle would react diffrently to the same problem. For instance I doubt very much had, Donatello been in the same emotional state as Leonardo, that he would have goaded him into a fight and gotten him to explode like that. In fact Donatello may not have even turned all feral like Leonardo had in same situation. So I believe Splinter would use a diffrent approach. And you notice he used several with Leo before going to the extreme. First he tried talking to him, then getting Usagi to talk sence into him, and then a more agressive approach. You really have to give Splinter props for is resourcefulness...although I may be reading to much into the whole "sword hacking incident" than I should.

Warhorse, I'll get to responding to your post later because I have a few things to say about it. But I gotta go now.

I agree with your assessment on how Splinter would deal with each Turtle in each situation. You would also think if a Turtle like Mikey all of a sudden started to brood and get angry, it would hopefully ba cause of great concern throughout the whole family.

Also, your mentioning on getting back to me. I swear, I am not trying to start trouble. I just like Mikey, and wish the shows would give him some more integrity, or whatever.

triplexxx

12-18-2006, 09:11 PM

I disagree with this. I think what son that has the problem affects how Splinter handles them. You have to remember that the turtles are indivduals and have different personalities and temperments. So I think Splinter would handle one of the turtles very differently from another even if they had the same problem. So I believe Splinter would use a diffrent approach. And you notice he used several with Leo before going to the extreme. First he tried talking to him, then getting Usagi to talk sence into him, and then a more agressive approach. You really have to give Splinter props for is resourcefulness...
I understand I didn't take the concept of personality into account and that it can affect the proper way a problem should be dealt with.
However, like you did say: "Splinter is resourceful"--and because of this, I do think Splinter, when dealing with any son with any problem, he will usually start by talking to them, and before resorting to more drastic measures; after all, when dealing with a child's problem, a parent should always consider "talking" to be their first option, especially with emotional problems.
I believe that with certain types of problems he will deal with each of his sons differently, and with other types of problems he won't.

Sage Ninja

12-21-2006, 05:53 PM

sorry folks this may get long :ohwell:

I just hope one day there is a time when Mikey says something slick, and ducks or gets the upperhand of whoever attempts to try and correct his tongue.

There have been times when Mikey has gotten the upper hand and ducked out of the way of some one trying to "correct his tongue" . It is not often but it does happen. And like I have said before Splinter only really uses his cane on him when he gets to silly or out of line. I do however have a bit of a problem with Don, Leo, or Raph smacking him up side the head on ocassion. I mean most of the time he deseves it but there are a few times where (as the viewer) I get a bit irritated when I see one of his brothers smack him up side the head.

Its not so much for the action but the fact that Mikey just lets it happen, and doesn't do anything about it. It kind of puts Mikey in a position of submission and I don't like that to much. And its not just the smacking thing, sometimes I just plain don't like how the other turtles talk down to Mikey and he doesn't say anything back. One of the biggest things that one of the turtles said to Mikey that really bugged me was in the episode "Adventures in turtle Sitting" when, after Mikey made some joke about Don throwing up in the van, Raph smacks Mikey and says: "Quite Mikey. The adults are talkinging". I mean it was funny and all but for some reason I thought the comment was a bit on the degrading side and it annoyed me that, 1) it was said, and 2) Mikey didn't say something back. But that could just be my personal bias talking since I like Michaelangelo and don't want to see him as a wimp or talked down too.

(...) I swear, I am not trying to start trouble. I just like Mikey, and wish the shows would give him some more integrity, or whatever

I don't know why you think your comment would cause trouble:-? . But I would like to say that his does have integrity, I think he has a lot of good character grases. But I think i know what you mean in that i wish they would give him a little more depth and stop making him out to be this stero-type that the franchise has put him under. As the mere comic relif.

That would be interesting... wonder how they'd get him in such a position, though. I don't think Mikey would crack until he'd lost someone dear to him. Like if Bad Day were real, and he'd lost Klunk... or certainly a brother he felt he'd had the power to save...

The think with Mikey is, his personality doesn't make for "angst-fest" the way Leonardo's does. Something seriously bad would have to happen to break his spirit - think SAINW. That could arguably be an "angsty" Mikey... at least one who's lost all hope.

actually i think giveing the fact that Mikey (and Don) are such laid back amiable characters that don't have brooding natures, would offer a much stronger impact if they where ever put in postition where they where all angry and angynsting. Just because they are so peaceful and mild mannered. However, like I said above, I think each turtle would react in a diffrent way to the same sever sitautions. But in Don's case I think he would go all angry only if he was in position where he was made helpless to help some one he loved. In Mikey's case...i think Mikey has such a strong support group from his family that he would not have to go all angry and mean. I think with Mikey the only thing that would shake his spirit is if he felt his support group that is his family where suddenly not there for him. I'm thinking betrayal is the only thing that could send over the edge.

**sigh** triplexxx I swear i'll get to you because your post because i have things to say about it, but right now I'm forced off the computer by a teacher.

I'll be back :)

Masked Ninja

12-21-2006, 06:29 PM

actually i think giveing the fact that Mikey (and Don) are such laid back amiable characters that don't have brooding natures, would offer a much stronger impact if they where ever put in postition where they where all angry and angynsting.Exactly. It's part of why SAINW was so emotionally awesome. I mean yeah, you have the rather depressing ending... but what really made me go WOW was right when Mikey shows up, you realize it's him, and he says his first line. Great work on the part of the writers (and special props to the VA for the voice change) for that one.

Hmm... betrayal. Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, I think that Mikey goes ahead and blows off the headsmacks and seemingly degrading comments because he knows they're just in jest and he prefers not to sweat the small stuff. (and Raph's "adults are talking" line makes me giggle every time, haha) But I can see him and Raph getting into a fight where Raph sounds just a little too sincere in his insults, and Mikey refusing to talk to him for several days. Now, a full betrayal as opposed to a fight... you're right. I bet it would completely destroy him.

Warhorse

12-21-2006, 09:07 PM

sorry folks this may get long :ohwell:

There have been times when Mikey has gotten the upper hand and ducked out of the way of some one trying to "correct his tongue" . It is not often but it does happen. And like I have said before Splinter only really uses his cane on him when he gets to silly or out of line. I do however have a bit of a problem with Don, Leo, or Raph smacking him up side the head on ocassion. I mean most of the time he deseves it but there are a few times where (as the viewer) I get a bit irritated when I see one of his brothers smack him up side the head.

Its not so much for the action but the fact that Mikey just lets it happen, and doesn't do anything about it. It kind of puts Mikey in a position of submission and I don't like that to much. And its not just the smacking thing, sometimes I just plain don't like how the other turtles talk down to Mikey and he doesn't say anything back. One of the biggest things that one of the turtles said to Mikey that really bugged me was in the episode "Adventures in turtle Sitting" when, after Mikey made some joke about Don throwing up in the van, Raph smacks Mikey and says: "Quite Mikey. The adults are talkinging". I mean it was funny and all but for some reason I thought the comment was a bit on the degrading side and it annoyed me that, 1) it was said, and 2) Mikey didn't say something back. But that could just be my personal bias talking since I like Michaelangelo and don't want to see him as a wimp or talked down too.

I don't know why you think your comment would cause trouble:-? . But I would like to say that his does have integrity, I think he has a lot of good character grases. But I think i know what you mean in that i wish they would give him a little more depth and stop making him out to be this stero-type that the franchise has put him under. As the mere comic relif.

You pretty much summed it up on my feelings towards the way Mikey is treated. While certain situations are funny, I agree in that Mikey is portrayed way to submissive.

From my take on things, Donetello is pretty much the most laid back of the four. But even he isn't gonna take crap from no one, so that leaves poor Mikey to get the blunt of the blows.

But kudos to Mikey, in his ability to get the worst out of Raph at times! He used Raph's temper to his advantage, showing he does have tactical.

iris

12-21-2006, 09:35 PM

There have been times when Mikey has gotten the upper hand and ducked out of the way of some one trying to "correct his tongue" . It is not often but it does happen. And like I have said before Splinter only really uses his cane on him when he gets to silly or out of line. I do however have a bit of a problem with Don, Leo, or Raph smacking him up side the head on ocassion. I mean most of the time he deseves it but there are a few times where (as the viewer) I get a bit irritated when I see one of his brothers smack him up side the head.

Its not so much for the action but the fact that Mikey just lets it happen, and doesn't do anything about it. It kind of puts Mikey in a position of submission and I don't like that to much. And its not just the smacking thing, sometimes I just plain don't like how the other turtles talk down to Mikey and he doesn't say anything back. One of the biggest things that one of the turtles said to Mikey that really bugged me was in the episode "Adventures in turtle Sitting" when, after Mikey made some joke about Don throwing up in the van, Raph smacks Mikey and says: "Quite Mikey. The adults are talkinging". I mean it was funny and all but for some reason I thought the comment was a bit on the degrading side and it annoyed me that, 1) it was said, and 2) Mikey didn't say something back. But that could just be my personal bias talking since I like Michaelangelo and don't want to see him as a wimp or talked down too.
One of the things I love about the 2K3 series is that it has a very realistic fraternal dynamic between the guys. It's almost as if some of the writers are drawing on their own experiences with older and younger brothers. Mikey definitely acts as the younger brother, and even though he's not REALLY that much younger, it's a role he takes on himself by being silly and making it his responsibility to ease the circumstantial tension.

Most of the time, when Mike says something irritatingly juvenile, he knows it, and he expects the reaction he gets. He's baiting. But because he does that so often, a bit like the Boy Who Cried Wolf, sometimes he'll get smacked when he's just making an ordinary joke, or when his brother just disagrees with him. I remember one scene (Still Nobody?) where Raph smacked Mike, and then Don copied the smack, and Mikey looked totally peeved while Don smiled obliviously.

Now, I'm not defending Raph's smack habit, but the truth is this is something that often happens between siblings. Maybe that's why it doesn't bother me... because although it's not pleasant and it's probably not something you want to show kids all the time (hah), it's an element that helps ground the story. Warhorse's example of Raph saying "Are you done yet?" is another fine example of that. I just think it's very cool.

And I know this is totally off topic, sorry.

triplexxx

12-21-2006, 11:58 PM

One of the things I love about the 2K3 series is that it has a very realistic fraternal dynamic between the guys. It's almost as if some of the writers are drawing on their own experiences with older and younger brothers. Mikey definitely acts as the younger brother, and even though he's not REALLY that much younger, it's a role he takes on himself by being silly and making it his responsibility to ease the circumstantial tension.
I must admit, I've never really been much of a fan of the turtles' sibling rivalry, but I've taught myself to look at it in a positive way: it means that they're very close with one another. Now I have a brother, and over the last few years we've had close to zero fights and arguments; however, at the same time, we've hardly spoken to one another because our lives are on completely separate planes. The turtles' sibling rivalry shows that they care about one another and about what happens in each other's lives.

Sage Ninja

12-27-2006, 06:49 PM

I understand I didn't take the concept of personality into account and that it can affect the proper way a problem should be dealt with.
However, like you did say: "Splinter is resourceful"--and because of this, I do think Splinter, when dealing with any son with any problem, he will usually start by talking to them, and before resorting to more drastic measures; after all, when dealing with a child's problem, a parent should always consider "talking" to be their first option, especially with emotional problems.
I believe that with certain types of problems he will deal with each of his sons differently, and with other types of problems he won't.

I believe that Splinter is a strict adherant to "you learn to make your own mistakes" and "tough love". What I like about Splinter's parenting methods is that he doesn't cuddle the turtles at all. When they screw up he lets them know it and often times lets them deal with the consequences of their actions. Like for instance when Leonardo was getting a little full of himself in one episode about having the best weapon out of the four turtles; Splinter didn't let that slide and quickly put him in his place. By basically embarrasing him in front of the other turtles by disarming him with his staff. Now I'm not sure embarrasing some one is the right the way to go about teaching some one a lesson (actually, personly I think it only worsens the problem) but Leonardo's case Splinter needed to make his point known that the weapon doesn't make the warrior.

by back later, I have moire to say. I'm getting kicked off again:roll:

Warhorse

12-27-2006, 07:48 PM

That's true about the embarrasing the student in front of their peers to bring them back to earth method. Works pretty good for both humans and animals when they are learning. (I train horses and teach riding lessons, so I know a thing or two about psycholagical techniques)

triplexxx

12-27-2006, 08:36 PM

Just to note, I don't think Splinter was purposely trying to embarrass Leonardo. He just did it in front of the other turtles so that they too would get the lesson if they didn't already know it.

Sage Ninja

12-28-2006, 03:43 PM

ok I'm back.

Just to note, I don't think Splinter was purposely trying to embarrass Leonardo. He just did it in front of the other turtles so that they too would get the lesson if they didn't already know it.

you may be right triplexxx that Splinter's aim was probably not humilation in this instance. I was just pointing out that Splinter disaplignary (spelling?)methods can veer from one situation to another. In this instance I feel he was a bit harsh on Leonardo (of course that is mearly my opinion), and i've mentioned before that I think Splinter is a bit more heavy handed on Leonardo than he is on the other turtles because of his asperations toward ninjitsu. I don't think he would have done the same thing if one the other turtles had said something like that. Or maybe not. It could have been that Splinter felt that Leoanrdo's over confidance in his katanas could prove to be dangerous if he became more dependent on them rather than on his own strength, which could prove to be dangerous considering the turtles are in battle so much of the time. I've notice that Splinter disapligns the turtles harshely when, what they are doing wrong could be dangerous or lead to a fatal situation.

Other than that I think Splinter is content to let the turtles make their own mistakes and face the consequences for it. Like in the episode Grudge Match when Michaelangelo disrespected him and his brothers about not needing to train because he was so damn good that he didn't need to train, and rubbed his win of Battle Nexus champion title in his brothers faces. He let Mikey deal with the sitaution all on his own, and offered him no help when it came to bite him in the ass, and even joined in with Don and Raph in taunting and torturing and throwing his words in his face. And it seemed like he didn't even give him even any encouragment eighther through out the whole ore deal as well. And if weren't for Leo helping him out Mikey would have flown completely solo on this one. So Splinter is no push over. If one of the turtles disrespects him or if one of them gets in trouble because they where acting like an ass--he'll leave let them face the consequences for it! And you know I like that. It may seem mean but I think serves to let the turtles learn they there actions have consequences.

The only thing that I don't like about Splinter when he is "trying to disaplign" one of his sons is when he gets disrespectful him self. Where goes a little over board with his methods or goes a bit to extreme. Or if he shows just a little bit to much glee in exacuting a lesson where he might torture one of the turtles. At one time I was totally writing off triplexxx's coment that Splinter had a sadistic sence of humour, but I've just about changed my mind on that one. After seeing the journal I thought he went to far with Don and Leo's stories and was down right...being insenceitive about how he went about it. I mean jeez, talk about hitting some one where they live! I can't belive he went there. That was just cruel. And I guess I could rational the reasons he went to that extreme but he just seemed to damn cheerful about the whole thing that I can't but think he was juast being a douche in that instance even if was trying to keep the boys from screwing up the past. holy heck!!

Warhorse

12-28-2006, 07:42 PM

Sage Ninja, I have a question for you.

I have read on other boards how people felt Splinter brought the Turtles up in Ninjitsu because of an underlying feel of revenge against the Shredder for destroying his family.

You don't think that could be the case for Splinter? I personally thought he taught the Turtles Ninjitsu was because that was what he was the most knowledgeable in.

Sewer Bull

12-29-2006, 03:22 AM

I have read on other boards how people felt Splinter brought the Turtles up in Ninjitsu because of an underlying feel of revenge against the Shredder for destroying his family.

That clearly comes from the very first Mirage issue, doesn't it?

Warhorse

12-29-2006, 02:26 PM

Never read the comics. I cant stand the format of comics, I rather read a novel and see sporadic pictures placed here and there.

Sage Ninja

01-02-2007, 05:18 PM

hm, I thought maybe triplexxx would have posted back on what I said :-? oh well :ohwell:

Sage Ninja, I have a question for you.

I have read on other boards how people felt Splinter brought the Turtles up in Ninjitsu because of an underlying feel of revenge against the Shredder for destroying his family.

You don't think that could be the case for Splinter? I personally thought he taught the Turtles Ninjitsu was because that was what he was the most knowledgeable in.

yeah, I pretty much said that in a few earlier posts in this thread about Splibter teaching the boys ninjitsu because of underlying feelings of resent and revenge. Not to say that Splinter doesn't really love the turtles I just think that orginally, before he got to love them as his children, that the main purpose of training them was to avenge Yoshi's death. I don't really buy that I taught them ninjitsu just so they could protect them selves line. If that where the case he could have just taught them a few self defence techniques and concealment tactics if their protection was his main concern. He didn't have to train them to be full blown ninja warriors.

Warhorse

01-02-2007, 06:02 PM

Spawn Guy

01-02-2007, 06:09 PM

Never read the comics. I cant stand the format of comics, I rather read a novel and see sporadic pictures placed here and there.
Comic book formats are hardly sporadic. To each there own, of course, I'm just saying there is an order. Heck, one of the things I most enjoy about comics is how the art can surprise me.

Warhorse

01-02-2007, 06:51 PM

^ I know they aren't sporadic. I would rather read a novel, getting inside a character's head, trying to see the world from their point of view, with an occasional piece of artwork, maybe every 10 or 15 pages. Comic books that I have seen, are confusing, and I cant get "into" them as I can a book or a movie.

But to each his and her own, right?

Also, by judging from some of the posters here who have read the comics, the comics tend to be a rather ridiculous in my opinion.

triplexxx

01-02-2007, 08:39 PM

But why not teach the Turtles to be full blown warriors. Many parents and parental types teach their children in what they know. And sometimes, the kids follow right in the parent's foot steps.I see this alot in Karate schools, horseback riding academies, gymnastic and figure skating school. Most of the teachers were taught by their parents, and their parents were taught by their parents, ets. Some sort of family tradition that follows down the line.
Personally, I think it takes a lot more than a simple desire to carry on a family tradition to motivate parents to make full-blown warriors out of their children, which is why I first emphasized that Splinter's main motivation was revenge; I already mentioned this in regards to Splinter in post #17 in this thread. Then again, I could be mistaken.

P.S. To respond to what Sage Ninja last wrote, I do agree that one of Splinter's most likely approaches to disciplinary action would be to let the turtles make their own mistakes and face the consequences of their own actions. Also, I see that somebody took into account what I said about Splinter's sadistic sense of humor.

mik8la

01-02-2007, 08:59 PM

But why not teach the Turtles to be full blown warriors. Many parents and parental types teach their children in what they know. And sometimes, the kids follow right in the parent's foot steps.I see this alot in Karate schools, horseback riding academies, gymnastic and figure skating school. Most of the teachers were taught by their parents, and their parents were taught by their parents, ets. Some sort of family tradition that follows down the line.

That's a great point, and connected to something I wanted to say about an earlier post: Splinter's culture is a traditional one, something radically different from what Westerners may be used to. I don't know if I can really emphasize how important family is in Asia--kids are raised not to be independent and to fend for themselves out in the world; they're raised to be integral, contributing members of a family. (If I'd stayed over there and gotten married, I'd live in the same house with my parents, my grandparents, and my aunt.) Granted, those perspectives may be changing now with the influx of Western attitudes, but it's been that way for centuries.

I guess one of the things I find interesting about the turtles is their Western environment coupled with their Eastern upbringing. I'm not surprised that Splinter uses his stick to keep the boys in line once in a while; it may seem like abuse here, but over there, as strange as it might sound, it's merely parental discipline.

triplexxx

01-03-2007, 12:35 AM

That's a great point, and connected to something I wanted to say about an earlier post: Splinter's culture is a traditional one, something radically different from what Westerners may be used to. I don't know if I can really emphasize how important family is in Asia--kids are raised not to be independent and to fend for themselves out in the world; they're raised to be integral, contributing members of a family. (If I'd stayed over there and gotten married, I'd live in the same house with my parents, my grandparents, and my aunt.) Granted, those perspectives may be changing now with the influx of Western attitudes, but it's been that way for centuries.

I guess one of the things I find interesting about the turtles is their Western environment coupled with their Eastern upbringing. I'm not surprised that Splinter uses his stick to keep the boys in line once in a while; it may seem like abuse here, but over there, as strange as it might sound, it's merely parental discipline.
Family means a lot in the West also.
I also believe that for someone to be able to take care of and spend time with his/her family, he/she must be capable of being self-sufficient and becoming independent, especially financially.
Whether whapping kids with a stick qualifies as abuse or merely parental discipline depends on how often and for what specific reasons it's used, this is regardless of culture. What I believe is that: with any parents anywhere, talking should always be their first resort, and whapping should be their last. Parents should whap their kids after and only after they've made absolutely certain that talking things out won't work, but as long as "talking" remains an available option (and it does in most parental situations if parents have the proper amount of patience and self-control) it should always take the place of hitting. Parents should give their kids a fair amount of chances to learn through parental lectures, and begin whapping them only after they've used up all their chances.
When parents let their kids face the consequences of their own actions, that means they neither talk to them nor hit them, and this is also a fair disciplinary approach as long as the consequences won't be too dangerous or fatal.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

01-03-2007, 01:40 AM

Oh yeah, that makes for intresting gags. Mikey slacks off and says something stupid, or the Turltes get out of line, and Splinter sits them down and gives them a 7 minute lecture on the importance of understanding.

Pardon my French but **** that ****.

A quick whap to the head gets the point across quicker and funnier.

triplexxx

01-03-2007, 02:29 AM

Spawn Guy

01-03-2007, 02:37 AM

To kids and the majority of the audience? Probably.

Stimor

01-03-2007, 08:41 AM

Splinter has suffered long from it, causing him to have such weird hobbies. like raising 4 mutant ninja turtles!

Sage Ninja

01-03-2007, 03:46 PM

Hmm... betrayal. Yeah, I think you're right. In fact, I think that Mikey goes ahead and blows off the headsmacks and seemingly degrading comments because he knows they're just in jest and he prefers not to sweat the small stuff. (and Raph's "adults are talking" line makes me giggle every time, haha) But I can see him and Raph getting into a fight where Raph sounds just a little too sincere in his insults, and Mikey refusing to talk to him for several days. Now, a full betrayal as opposed to a fight... you're right. I bet it would completely destroy him.

Raph and Mikey have an interesting brotherly relationship. They seem to be close but for the most part seem to always be at each other throats all the time. I notice that both seem capable of inciteing the strongest reactions out of each other. Like if Michelangelo where to ever get pushed enough where he would flip out and get angry at one of his brothers, I have a very good feeling that I would have been because Raph was responciable. I think the reason for this is because, deep down I think Raph and Mikey are very much alike and share a diffrent sort of bond with each other than the other turtles do. And you know, they say you generally hurt the onee you love the most. As for betrayal? I didn't exactly mean a betrayal of one of the brothers. What i emant is Mikey was ever in a situation where he was betrayed by some one close to him and his brother wheren't there for him or something.

While certain situations are funny, I agree in that Mikey is portrayed way to submissive.

From my take on things, Donetello is pretty much the most laid back of the four. But even he isn't gonna take crap from no one, so that leaves poor Mikey to get the blunt of the blows.

That is what I mean. I agree that of the two Dontello is more laid back than Mikey and yet I have a feeling that he wouldn't take crap from any one not even Raph. In fact I get the impression that the other turtles are reluctant to peeve Donatello off, and usally take his moments of grumpiness in stride rather than egging him on for it. I remeber when Don chased Raph out of his work shop with a hammer because he was annoying him. I guess i wish the writters would make Mikey a little more assertive and less like goof (not that his goofiness is bad) because it gets old after awhile seeing him so...an object of a joke all the time. :ohwell:

But kudos to Mikey, in his ability to get the worst out of Raph at times! He used Raph's temper to his advantage, showing he does have tactical.

Actually I didn't like that he did that to Raph, it wasn't tactical manurveing so much as it was him taking advantage of Raph. And then he had the gaul to rub it in Raph's face! I can totally understand Raph's reaction to that. Mikey cheated him, and lorded over him for months because. Its instances like that where Mikey acts like a jerk That I don't like. And when Grudge mAtch happend, I will admit there was a small little piece of me that wanted Mikey to get his come uppance in that episode.

Rooish

01-03-2007, 07:09 PM

Sage Ninja, I totally agree with what you said; Mike and Raph do have a very interesting and complex relationship which I fear will be completely ignored in the upcoming movie. And no one messes with Don! And also, it was unkind of Mikey to use Raph's anger to his advantage in the Battle Nexus. If Raph had gotten in physical contact with Mikey during that battle, I would have liked to see who would have won the battle! My guess is that Mikey would have come out pretty bruised, whoever won. Mikey at least shouldn't have teased Raph about the thing afterwards.

Splinter has always been kind of sketchy in my opinion... he keeps too much from his sons in all incarnations of the Turtles, and a lot of stuff he does is pretty weird. From somehow learning ninjitsu when he was just an ordinary pet rat (this I find more unrealistic and unbelievable than anything else in the series), to training the TMNT just so they would kill Shredder in revenge (when Splinter has proven that he is quite an adequate fighter himself; why didn't he just attack Shredder, or at least come with his sons when they fought Shredder?), to his favouritism for Leo, to his method of using physical abuse to keep his sons in line. I'm sorry, but hitting your kid with a stick is inexcusable and very abusive. Kids watch this show; how do you think seeing this affects them? I know slapstick is funny and I know it's a cartoon, but impressionable people are watching.

I know that Mikey acts like an idiot sometimes, but why do you think he does? Because he wants attention, maybe? And why does he want attention? Well, maybe because no one respects Mikey and he has no way of gaining attention otherwise, because he doesn't have the discipline or interest in being a warrior. And because he acts dumb to get attention, people respect him even less. It's cyclical. Yes, Mikey should learn humility, but through an understanding conversation, not through violence (which will probably just make him less confident and more likely to act out--this is pretty much proven in studies about child abuse). Maybe that would be boring to watch on TV, but if the show writers just made Mikey less annoying, then we wouldn't have to deal with this whole situation. What does childhood abuse create? An abuser, or a person with horrible self-esteem who allows himself to be abused for his whole life. I think that's why Mikey, as a teenager, still puts up with the others hitting him.

I don't dislike Splinter, but I try to just ignore some of the bad things he does, because otherwise I would dislike him.

mik8la

01-03-2007, 07:49 PM

As I scan over the replies to this post since yesterday, I realize that we've essentially boiled down to debating the merits of a giant rat using a stick to discipline four mutated adolescent turtles who can flip over cars.

Family means a lot in the West also.

I never implied that it didn't. It's just different. It's very hard to explain; if I tried to do so here I'd probably have to touch on a lot of sensitive and irrelevant subjects, so I won't. And I'm not saying that just because your culture is different means you can be overlooked for committing child abuse; I just pointed out that this kind of discipline isn't unusual or sinister in some cultures. I know the difference between corporeal punishment and outright abuse, and in all honesty, I've yet to see Splinter cross the line.

As for his alleged abuse of Mikey...didn't Raph hit him more than Splinter did? And like Sage Ninja pointed out with the Battle Nexus boasting (and the Leatherhead-baiting), sometimes Mikey seems to be asking for it. I never saw anything overtly sinister in those exchanges. And Splinter's favoritism of Leo: I never saw it. You don't see him rag on Leo as much as the others, but then again you don't see him rag on Don either, because the two of them are usually well-behaved anyway. If you think he lets Leo get away with stuff his brothers don't, well, Raph nearly beat Mikey's head in with a pipe and Splinter let him go topside to get some air. So favoritism? No. I think Splinter's actually harder on Leo than his brothers--why would he not allow him to have a weakness (i.e., heights) when his brothers are permitted to be freaked out by bugs, or have a lack of focus, or more interested in tech?

triplexxx

01-03-2007, 08:05 PM

You are right that Splinter does not show favoritism. Personally, I think Splinter is equally hard on all his sons, except when they misbehave; they're all hard-core warriors who get involved in a lot of dangerous business, and a lot is to be expected out of all of them. And all of them have weaknesses and fears, it's not that Splinter permits it, it's just life, but all the turtles have proven themselves very courageous and capable in battle; otherwise, how could they all have survived up to this point?
P.S. Raphael isn't afraid of bugs, they just annoy him a lot, as do a lot of other things.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

01-03-2007, 08:12 PM

This whole discussion has not only veered totally off topic(I don't even remember what it was), but I think you guys are breathing too much into this.

In the comics, yes he taught the Turtles ninjitsu to avenge his master, but one, has shown that he values his sons over everything and would'nt have thrown them into danger unless he absolutley believed they were ready to face it. And two, I'm not suprised he had the TMNT do his fighting for him, I don't think he ever fought in the comics, he was too old.

In the old toon, he didn't teach them out of vengance at all, he taught them as a way of self defense should they be attack. Yes, he seemed complex at times, sometimes he wanted the turtles to fight, other times he didn't. But the whole old toon was screwy to begin with. Plus, the guy did give up his only chance to be human to save the turtles from being shot by the retro mutagen ray.

In the new toon, he deliberatley withheld the truth about the Shredder from the Turtles to keep them safe and so they didn't try to go face Shredder on their own.

So he hits them on the head with a cane, big deal. It's not like he takes them out to the shed and beats them with a belt until they cry. IT'S A SIMPLE WHAP ON THE HEAD. Nothing more, so stop treating Master Splinter like he's Joe Jackson.

mik8la

01-03-2007, 09:41 PM

This whole discussion has not only veered totally off topic(I don't even remember what it was), but I think you guys are breathing too much into this.

So he hits them on the head with a cane, big deal. It's not like he takes them out to the shed and beats them with a belt until they cry. IT'S A SIMPLE WHAP ON THE HEAD. Nothing more, so stop treating Master Splinter like he's Joe Jackson.

Yeah, what you said. This thread kind of spiraled from hypothesizing about Splinter's possible loneliness to debating his fitness as a parent.

P.S. Raphael isn't afraid of bugs, they just annoy him a lot, as do a lot of other things.

He isn't, but it's enough for Mikey to use that dislike to freak him out.

Sage Ninja

01-04-2007, 06:55 PM

This whole discussion has not only veered totally off topic(I don't even remember what it was), but I think you guys are breathing too much into this.

Yeah, what you said. This thread kind of spiraled from hypothesizing about Splinter's possible loneliness to debating his fitness as a parent

**takes deep calming breath**

ok, I have to say its a good thing that I decided to wait till i cooled down before answering to these posts because I gotta say they kinda irked/baffled me. So I'm going to be as civil as I can be be even though i'm annoyed. ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael,and mik8la I started this thread and I don't care if we are not talking about what i orginally started the disscussion about to be honest what we are talking about right now is more interesting than what i started the thread for. And I don't see how we "veered totally off topic" as you put it because we are still basically talking about Splinter. And I said earlier on in my thread starter post that the turtles get analised and debated all the time but not Splinter, well here we are doing just that. Its a discussion, and it naturally flowed into how he acts as a parent and his motivations. I don't think getting inside his head is off topic.

However I don't know why you feel every one is "breathing to much air into this" because its just a disscusion, and we are not even bashing Splinter. Its just for fun just go with it. And any way, My self at least, i think I'm being pretty fair with my posts about Splinter and seeing it from both sides. So are others.

So he hits them on the head with a cane, big deal. It's not like he takes them out to the shed and beats them with a belt until they cry. IT'S A SIMPLE WHAP ON THE HEAD. Nothing more, so stop treating Master Splinter like he's Joe Jackson.

I think i'm the only one that sort of likes seeing the turtles get whapped in the head and don't see anything wrong with this brand of disaplign that Splinter uses on the turtles. like I said earlier given the turtles lfe style and the fact that the turtles are willful and a bit way ward, I think a good whap up side the head is the best, and most impressionable way, to get his point across. In the sesond Live Action Movie I liked seeing Splinter making the turtles do back flips when the stepped out of line. It was funny and it was true to family situation when a teen gets rowdy. I wish Splinter made the boys do flips when they step of line too. It would be funny to see.

Rooish and triplexxx, I get to your post later when I get back to school. Later

p.s to mik8la and ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael, I hope I didn't offend you with my response. I didn't pursue Splinter's "questionable motives to teaching the boys ninjitsu, and his parenting skills" to start fights. I just thought its interesting to debate because it seems to a contravercy.

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

01-04-2007, 07:07 PM

I'm not offended, and I see your point, actually i forgot you were the one who started this thread.

I just meant that some people are breathing way too much into a simple whap on the head. he's been doing it for pretty much all their lives and it has'nt had any negative consequence. Besides, the only time he really gets tough with them is durring training.

mik8la

01-04-2007, 07:42 PM

**takes deep calming breath**

p.s to mik8la and ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael, I hope I didn't offend you with my response. I didn't pursue Splinter's "questionable motives to teaching the boys ninjitsu, and his parenting skills" to start fights. I just thought its interesting to debate because it seems to a contravercy.

No harm done. I never thought you did it to be controversial or anything. I just thought it was weird that the subject of the post no longer matched what was being discussed. Not that it's wrong, though; it is rather interesting to see other people's views on his parenting skills.

Warhorse

01-04-2007, 07:46 PM

Hmmm. What do you think Splinter would do with the likes of Eric Cartman, Kyle, Stan and Kenny?

Spawn Guy

01-04-2007, 07:52 PM

Strangle Cartman in his sleep and accidently kill Kenny.

Rooish

01-04-2007, 09:50 PM

Okay, I agree that some of the things I said were untrue, although I wasn't saying anything just to anger anyone. I also just started talking about those aspects of Splinter in this thread because it had already been brought up. I know Splinter grew to care about his sons more than about vengence; this is evident in all the episodes of the new series, as well as every issue but the first one of the old Mirage comics. Old Mirage Splinter was not universally frail and unable to fight, but I think he became more agile as the series progressed. So you're right. And I suppose he doesn't show favouritism for Leonardo (although perhaps the new 'toon does :roll:). I still think it's wrong that he hits them with his stick, although I can appreciate that he is training them to be warriors and he needs to be tough on them. I know it's a cartoon and the abuse is very slapstick, but since we analyse these characters as though they are real all the time, I tried to give a realistic perspective. Sorry for being rash about it.

Warhorse

01-04-2007, 10:13 PM

Strangle Cartman in his sleep and accidently kill Kenny.

LOL! He probably would do that! Forget the dog whisperer effect.

Sage Ninja

01-08-2007, 06:48 PM

Sage Ninja, I totally agree with what you said; Mike and Raph do have a very interesting and complex relationship which I fear will be completely ignored in the upcoming movie. And no one messes with Don! And also, it was unkind of Mikey to use Raph's anger to his advantage in the Battle Nexus. If Raph had gotten in physical contact with Mikey during that battle, I would have liked to see who would have won the battle! My guess is that Mikey would have come out pretty bruised, whoever won. Mikey at least shouldn't have teased Raph about the thing afterwards.

yeah, it bugs me that Don gets to have a little more respect that know one wants to rile him but Mikey. And you are right, I hope the New Movie gives us some good Mikey Raph interaction since they are supposed to be close in the comics, but I don't see that happening, and I wish that Mikey and Raph would do more than just bicker in the new toon. Mikey cheating and then rubbing poor Raphael's face in his win was horriable. If there is one thing i don't like about this new incarnations portrayal of Mikey is how cocky and bratty he can be some times. It makes watching a bit cringe worthy, especially when they have him het it in the mouth a few minutes after he was boasting, when he really doesn't anything to boast about. Actually I wish that Raph and Mikey could have gotten physical in the battle nexus thing. Because unlike some people I think Mikey might have stood up pretty well against him if he wanted to. Its just the fact that he took the easy way out that was bothersome.

Splinter has always been kind of sketchy in my opinion... he keeps too much from his sons in all incarnations of the Turtles, and a lot of stuff he does is pretty weird. From somehow learning ninjitsu when he was just an ordinary pet rat (this I find more unrealistic and unbelievable than anything else in the series), to training the TMNT just so they would kill Shredder in revenge (when Splinter has proven that he is quite an adequate fighter himself; why didn't he just attack Shredder, or at least come with his sons when they fought Shredder?), to his favouritism for Leo, to his method of using physical abuse to keep his sons in line. I'm sorry, but hitting your kid with a stick is inexcusable and very abusive. Kids watch this show; how do you think seeing this affects them? I know slapstick is funny and I know it's a cartoon, but impressionable people are watching.

My only theory as to why Splinter keeps so much from his sons is because he hopes they'll never find out. Or he wants to protect them from ver knowing. It could be very well that Splinter doesn't tell the turtles things because he feels they aren't old enough to know about such knowledge, and was probably going to tell them when they got older and more experience. But, yeah...Splinter has always been sketchy to me too, he is just too weird at times with his actions that you wonder what the hell is going through his head.

Rooish

01-08-2007, 09:08 PM

And you are right, I hope the New Movie gives us some good Mikey Raph interaction since they are supposed to be close in the comics, but I don't see that happening, and I wish that Mikey and Raph would do more than just bicker in the new toon. Mikey cheating and then rubbing poor Raphael's face in his win was horriable. If there is one thing i don't like about this new incarnations portrayal of Mikey is how cocky and bratty he can be some times. It makes watching a bit cringe worthy, especially when they have him het it in the mouth a few minutes after he was boasting, when he really doesn't anything to boast about. Actually I wish that Raph and Mikey could have gotten physical in the battle nexus thing. Because unlike some people I think Mikey might have stood up pretty well against him if he wanted to. Its just the fact that he took the easy way out that was bothersome.
head.

I doubt the Raph/Mikey interaction will be especially present in the movie, but more so, I doubt that Don's relationships with anyone will be explored. I don't mind that Raph and Mikey fight in the new toon, as long as they get along very well at other times... like an intense love/hate thing. But I agree, it would have been nice for Raph and Mike to have had a physical fight in the Battle Nexus. I couldn't say who would have won then. Mikey was a jerk about that whole thing, though.

Warhorse

01-08-2007, 09:29 PM

I think Mikey was really scared of Raph in the Battle Nexus and did the only thing that came to his mind. Run like hell. Especially after he saw that devilish grin on Raph's face when they were stuck in the same box.

Rooish

01-09-2007, 08:47 AM

Yeah, Mikey's such a wuss. :lol: But even when he's a wuss, he usually recovers and whups out major damage.

Uh... what were we taking about again? Splinter has nobody? I kind of agree that he cant talk about everything with someone else, but I don't think he minds. He's a solitary rat. Or mountain lion. Whatever.

Sage Ninja

01-09-2007, 06:56 PM

I know that Mikey acts like an idiot sometimes, but why do you think he does? Because he wants attention, maybe? And why does he want attention? Well, maybe because no one respects Mikey and he has no way of gaining attention otherwise, because he doesn't have the discipline or interest in being a warrior. And because he acts dumb to get attention, people respect him even less. It's cyclical. Yes, Mikey should learn humility, but through an understanding conversation, not through violence (which will probably just make him less confident and more likely to act out--this is pretty much proven in studies about child abuse). Maybe that would be boring to watch on TV, but if the show writers just made Mikey less annoying, then we wouldn't have to deal with this whole situation. What does childhood abuse create? An abuser, or a person with horrible self-esteem who allows himself to be abused for his whole life. I think that's why Mikey, as a teenager, still puts up with the others hitting him.

You make some good points here. It makes sence that Mikey acts out the way that he does because he doesn't get the same respect from his brothers that they give to one another. And I don't think he started out like this to begin with early on in life. I think at first Mikey was just an unfocused person who had other intrests other than ninjitsu, and was sort of looked down at because of it. And I think that in turn made him want to grab every ones attention, because there life is based around ninjitsu. I mean seriously speaking Do you really think Mikey would het notice at all if he wasn't always up in every ones face making silly remarks and doing juvinile things? No I don't think so I think he would just be aprt of the furniture if he didn't make his presence known by being utterly annoying. I mean Leo is the skillful dedicated warrior, Raph is edgy and brooding and draws every one attention because of it, and Don is the tech geniuos. Mikey is seriously over shadowed by all of them. I think its for that reason that Mikey acts like a cocky jerk anytime he gets praise for some thing his brothers didn't do. He is throwing it in their face that he can do some thing that (presumbly) could not. However when he acts like this he gets very little symoathy from his bros as a result becayuse its annoying, and it causes them to resent him a little because of it. Smacking him around is one way to get release that. So what has mikey accomplished?

I think the whole team nijitsu dynamic is more harmful to Mikey's self esteen than anything else. Because he is always unconsciencely competeing against people that are more adapt at it or better focused on it than he is. So he gets no leway. I think because of this he created his alter ego turtle titan.

more on Splinter later.

Sage Ninja

01-10-2007, 03:41 PM

I'm sorry my post up above was rushed because I forced off the computer by a proffesor. i really need to get internet hooked up again at my home computer, it sucks when i am in the throes of compistion and have to end a topic abruptly and leave it devolped. :oops:

any way back on topic 8)

What I was trying to veer my first post up above toward was Splinter and his hand in the whole family dynamic, Rooish made a comment to this effect about Splinter:

(which will probably just make him less confident and more likely to act out--this is pretty much proven in studies about child abuse). Maybe that would be boring to watch on TV, but if the show writers just made Mikey less annoying, then we wouldn't have to deal with this whole situation. What does childhood abuse create?

Correct me if I take the meaning of what you wrote here wrong, but I'm going to give my answer based on my impression of what I think you ment here.

I don't really think the way Mikey's out burst of misbehavior are nesacarily (spelling?) a product of him being abused in any way. Splinter bops Mikey and any of the other turtle when ever they act out. I think like any parent Splinter has certain expections of how he wants the turtles to behave and he disaplgn them when they act out, to get them back on tract. However I know that Splinter likes the turtles make their own mistakes so that they learn from them but their when I wonder why Splinter doesn't step in and put a stop to things. For instance i don't get why Splinter didn't immediatly curb Mikey's boasting about his battle Nexus win when it was obviously annoying the other turtles in a way that was more resentful than their noramal reaction to when Mikey is annoying them. I wonder if he had just stepped in and lectured told Mikey anbout the pit falls of of being a poor winner if it would have saved him some mortification in the Grudge match episode.

Or even why he let the rivary between Leo and Raph go for as long as it did when it was causing problems. In the rivalry thing, did Splinter let it happen because he felt that little rivalry would stimualte Leo and Raph to out do each other become better warriors? If that was the case then Splinter allowed a rivary to continue for the sake of the team dynamic to make them better warriors. Does any one see something a bit off about that? And with Mikey did he let him go and on knowing that it was going to bite him in the ass eventually in order to humble to teach him humilty even though his actions was causing strain between him self and Raph and Don. Notice how these two turtles alone where the ones that wheren't on Mikey's side at all when Kluh came to challenge him?

Kunoichi_Haruko

01-10-2007, 05:02 PM

However I know that Splinter likes the turtles make their own mistakes so that they learn from them but their when I wonder why Splinter doesn't step in and put a stop to things. For instance i don't get why Splinter didn't immediatly curb Mikey's boasting about his battle Nexus win when it was obviously annoying the other turtles in a way that was more resentful than their noramal reaction to when Mikey is annoying them.

An interesting point, and I must say it really was a serious lapse in judgment on Splinter's part. There's no way he would've known that a rematch would've taken place which would've taught Mike some humility, so he should've killed that nonsense after a day or two of Mike's boasting.

I would chime in on the rest of your post, but I need to collect my thoughts...

terran631

01-10-2007, 07:33 PM

Wow, it's been years since I've posted to this forum, but this discussion really caught my eye. I've seen some great debates on Splinter (a character that I find personally very interesting). Nothing that I am about to say is any way saying "YOU'RE WRONG, I'M Right!" This is just my opinion on the topics at hand....

First of all, it is really hard to discuss cartoon characters as if they were real people, because the show and/or comic only shows us brief glimpses into the lives of the characters, and usually not very in depth views of their thoughts or motivations.

Splinter plays a duel role as father and sensei. It is something that I also do. I have three boys ages 8, and the twins are 4. They have been training in the martial arts since they were three years old. At home, I am Mom but at the dojo or in training, I am Sensei or Ma'am. There is a distinct difference and no one has yet to confuse the two. There are things they can do or say to "mom" at home that they cannot say to "Sensei" at the dojo. Is this confusing for them? No. Because the rules are different for two different places. That being said, Splinter has to play the duel role in the same environment. I think he does an admirable job. (Notice I didn't say perfect)

I know there was a big debate about Splinter's use of his walking stick to correct his sons. To that I say this...yes talking out situations is always best. Splinter doesn't always resort to using his stick. A lot of times, it is when they are messing around during training (which is a BIG NO NO!) Training is life saving practice. That is not the time to mess around. Or when they are about to do something OR have done something life threatening. (Raph going to run after Baxter or the four of them taking on Shredder after SPlinter had told them not to). And as far as I have seen, other than a whiny, semi-fake "ow", it doesn't seem to phase them very much. It just gets their attention. I can't see how that is comparable to child abuse. The slap in the Shredder Strikes episode is a lil different. But that was an extreme situation where they were nearly killed after disobeying. I would equate that with a child running into a busy street. And how much effect would a lecture have in that situation? They deliberately defied their SENSEI. Not just their father. I don't know how many martial artists are out there, but in some clans past (or even present) that would be a capital crime.

As for Raph's hitting of Mike...As someone said, Mike baits him. Baits everyone just to get the reaction he gets. Why? Because he likes the attention. Its the nature of his relationship with Raphael. And Mike being ninja, and a fast one at that, you don't think he could duck out of Raphs way if he chose to? I havent watched the new toon in ages so I can't say for certain, but it doesn't seem overly excessive. And Raph would be the first one to step up if Mike needed him.
Umm...theres more but I forget right now. *will now go back to the depths from whence she came*

triplexxx

01-10-2007, 08:56 PM

I see you have quite an opinion on this thread, and I admire it.
There is one little thing however: when you mentioned the TMNT going up to face Shredder in "Shredder Strikes: Part I" against Splinter's wishes, well the truth is, Splinter never actually said to them beforehand "Don't go up and face Shredder yourselves." In fact, he was sitting right in front of them when Leonardo said, "Let's give shredder an answer, turtle-style" and he didn't say a word.
He neglected to tell them they were doing the wrong thing until after they had already started the fight & it was too late to turn back and walk away; this is why i first stirred up the controversy that just maybe Splinter witheld warning his sons because he secretly did desire for them to battle Shredder in order to satisfy Splinter's vendetta.
However, like many have said, Splinter is a good father, and if I remember correctly, in "Exodus: Part II" when Splinter had been injured, he told to his sons "I'm sorry," and my guess is: it was for letting them get involved with Shredder in the first place, so even if he did want them involving themselves with Shredder in the first place, he probably realized it was wrong and regretted it afterwards.

terran631

01-10-2007, 09:28 PM

I see you have quite an opinion on this thread, and I admire it.
There is one little thing however: when you mentioned the TMNT going up to face Shredder in "Shredder Strikes: Part I" against Splinter's wishes, well the truth is, Splinter never actually said to them beforehand "Don't go up and face Shredder yourselves." In fact, he was sitting right in front of them when Leonardo said, "Let's give shredder an answer, turtle-style" and he didn't say a word.
.

Hmm...it's been awhile since I've seen the ep. But I do remember (or dreamed) that Splinter had been meditating and comes from his room to talk to his sons. And they arent there. He mumbles something about not even being able to meditate without them running off. Then something about "what did I NOT want them to do?" I can't remember the exact quote, but it did imply that he told them not to go. Even if it was not an on screen command.

mik8la

01-10-2007, 10:31 PM

I agree with a lot of what terran631 says. Splinter doesn't have the easiest job. He's not a perfect parent, but he is a good one--if he weren't he wouldn't have raised moral, decent kids.

Or even why he let the rivary between Leo and Raph go for as long as it did when it was causing problems.

What "rivalry"? To me rivalry involves some kind of fierce competitiveness, which in their case never amounted to more than a couple of rooftop races. Raph and Leo's disagreements usually stemmed from Leo making a decision and Raph second-guessing it. They don't quarrel all the time --I've counted only one major spat per season--because otherwise the turtles would never have gotten anything done. Besides, Raph's usually more well-behaved in front of Splinter.

For instance i don't get why Splinter didn't immediatly curb Mikey's boasting about his battle Nexus win when it was obviously annoying the other turtles in a way that was more resentful than their noramal reaction to when Mikey is annoying them.

I could've sworn he called Mikey on it in one episode; he even spouted some quote about humility. I don't think it discouraged Mikey much.

To be sure, I don't think new 'toon Mikey's that much of a brat. If anything, he's more of a typical teenager than the rest of them, and though his brand of humor can go over the top sometimes, it's quite essential for the show. Someone has to balance out Raph's crankiness and Leo's seriousness, which Mikey does almost singlehandedly.

Rooish

01-11-2007, 09:39 AM

Ahhhhhh lots to reply to! Or rather, I think I pissed off a bunch of people when I called Splinter's stick use "abusive," so I'd better reply. But I actually do think it was abusive, since I perceived him as hitting Mikey hard with the thing. I think Splinter has some very great qualities, but I do find him morally inconsistent. I appreciate, however, the difficulty of his job... raising and training four boys without a break, since they were never allowed to go out anywhere (being mutants), and who are now blossoming into independent, quasi-rebellious adolescents. Even Leo rebels in "The Shredder Strikes."

I respect Splinter's laissez-faire attitude... letting his sons figure out for themselves what they did wrong. But when he does step in... say, to curb an ongoing difficult behaviour like Mikey's... I wish he'd seriously try to help his son through it, instead of punishing him on a case-by-case basis. But I do think he handled the "Grudge Match" situation pretty well... he did try to lecture Mikey, but then he decided to pointedly leave Mikey to learn his own lesson when the lecture didn't work. He didn't even hit him!

mik8la, I think that Raph's and Leo's rivalry is present more in the comics, although it did show up in "Tales of Leo." I agree that Mikey is the most typical teenager. I think he balances the team out well. I guess I just don't like it when he's actively annoying people, no matter how typical teenager that is, but I should get used to it because it adds to the show's realism. I agree with terran631 that he baits Raph, and Splinter to some extent. But I think it's really unfortunate that that's the only way he can get attention or appreciation. I think he was driven to brag so much about the Battle Nexus win (the first one) because he was insecure and needed to desperately defend his win. He knew he had won due to three separate occasions of getting off easy. Splinter let him win, Raph lost just because he got to frustrated and smashed into a wall, and Kluh lost because Mikey accidentally hit him in the head with a nunchaku when the fight wasn't even happening. He knew that he didn't deserve to win, so he overcompensated by boasting. This just shows what crappy self-esteem the poor guy has.

As for "The Shredder Strikes" episode, yes terran631, that is what happened after the Turtles left. But during the conversation with the Turtles before, triplexxx is right that the Turtles set off to confront the Shredder, and announced this in front of Splinter, and he didn't say a thing... although earlier in the conversation he had asked them, sadly, not to get involved. But he saw them leave, and didn't stop them. This is what I mean about him being inconsistent.

Finally, Sage Ninja, you're right; Mikey's acting out is not a product of being "abused." I didn't think before I wrote that. He acts out because, as you said, he has low confidence because the other three are in some way better or more noticeable. I don't think Splinter slapping him helps the situation, though. By just punishing, Splinter does not addressing Mikey's low self-esteem, or help Mikey to build it up before Mikey has to resort to boasting and teasing Raph.

terran631

01-11-2007, 11:59 AM

I think this may be a case of agree to disagree, Rooish. It's all in perception. Because I don't perceive Mike as having low self esteem. It has been written in Official RPG books that as far as speed, agility and all around athleticism, Mike has all three brothers beat hands down. It's been theorized that Mike's acting out is only the result of a talented young man (who could probably be the best ninja) a little bored in training. He does not train nearly as hard as his brothers, yet he is pretty much on even footing with them. That shows something about his sheer talent.

I just viewed his boasting as just another way to get on his brothers' nerves because it's what he likes to do. (call it a hobby :) ). He doesn't do it just because that's the only way he can get attention, but because he revels in the REaction he gets. I do however think that his family underestimates him and that could be another reason for his bragging. But I still don't think he has low self-esteem.

As for the Shredder Strike's episode. I suppose that is the problem with television shows. No one knows what Splinter said to them or didn't say to them. I got the impression that he told them not to go, went to meditate on the issue and they just went anyway. For him to discipline them for nothing is not just inconsistent, it's wildly out of character. I just don't think that was the case. I am going to have to find that episode somewhere. But as I said, agree to disagree.

Rooish

01-11-2007, 03:28 PM

Agreeing to disagree seems good to me. Besides, your argument seemed very reasonable and either interpretation is possible. It seems to me that he has low self-esteem, but his fighting talent is shown gloriously in "Grudge Match." None of the Turtles have ever looked so agile.

And I have found the episode on YouTube in the past. ;)

mik8la

01-11-2007, 08:00 PM

I agree that it's all in our perceptions, because I still can't see the "abusive" angle there.

But I actually do think it was abusive, since I perceived him as hitting Mikey hard with the thing.

Well...if it was that hard, then I think Mikey would've reacted a lot more strongly than a simple "Ow"--he can be a bit of a drama queen. Raph hits him as well, but I guess it comes off less "abusive" because he doesn't hit with a stick. And Mikey's fast enough to duck those hits if he wanted to--he does that more than once with Raph.

Also, Mikey doesn't seem to be emanating any "low self-esteem" vibes to me. His boasting seems to stem more from the fact that he is genuinely proud of his accomplishments--heck, if I beat my supposedly more-skilled brother in combat I'd be ecstatic. I know that some people will disagree with me, but I think Mikey won the match with Raph fair and square. Fighting isn't all about how many times you can land a blow on someone; it's also about strategy, which Mikey demonstrated admirably here. It wasn't cheating as much as it was exploiting an opponent's weakness, and showed that Mikey did pay attention to Splinter's lessons. It was wrong of him to continually rub his win in his siblings' faces, but I've seen that happen with my guy friends when one of them wins in our online XBox deathmatches.

The thing that Terran631 said about Mikey being addicted to getting a rise out of his family makes sense to me; that might explain why he continually picks on Raph. I've seen Mikey take potshots at Leo and Don, but they brush it off like it's nothing. Raph, on the other hand, is a lot more likely to rise to the bait, so that's who Mikey focuses on.

But like you said, let's all agree to disagree.

Rooish

01-11-2007, 10:28 PM

Okay. Heh, maybe I was being a little harsh there anyway... if there weren't debates, this wouldn't be a discussion board, right?

Warhorse

01-11-2007, 10:46 PM

Okay. Heh, maybe I was being a little harsh there anyway... if there weren't debates, this wouldn't be a discussion board, right?

Right!

And Splinter has done a bang up job with guys! (Oops, did I just say that?) Hehe, sorry.

Well, in the end, they are alright for the most part. Yeah, Leo is a little obsessive in his training, and yeah, Donnie is like really into his gadgets and what not, and well Mikey, looks to be thinking he's 12 forever, but that's ok. ANd oh yeah, Raph sometimes hints he may be best in the mental institute or something. But again, all in all, the boys turned out no worse or better than any of your other dysfunctional families!:D

Rooish

01-11-2007, 10:59 PM

Right!

And Splinter has done a bang up job with guys! (Oops, did I just say that?) Hehe, sorry.

Well, in the end, they are alright for the most part. Yeah, Leo is a little obsessive in his training, and yeah, Donnie is like really into his gadgets and what not, and well Mikey, looks to be thinking he's 12 forever, but that's ok. ANd oh yeah, Raph sometimes hints he may be best in the mental institute or something. But again, all in all, the boys turned out no worse or better than any of your other dysfunctional families!:D

:lol: Oh my goodness Warhorse, you just made my day. Now I can go to sleep with a light heart.

Buslady

01-12-2007, 12:24 AM

terran631

01-12-2007, 07:03 AM

Hey BL!

LOL, we've had this convo before :). I agree with you that Splinter contributed to Raphael's anger issues and if there was one huge mistake he ever made it was that one. But honestly I think he did the best he knew how. He was trying to protect his sons and fear is a very powerful weapon. And Raphael was a bit more sensitive to that persuasion than the others.

(ahem! I've written this very fic.;) )

As for the lectures, well, even if Splinter contributed doesn't mean that he can't try to help. It's better than letting the thing with Mikey and the wrench happen again. Compare it to a parent "encouraging" whining by giving into it so many times. Then they realize what they are doing and seek to correct it by discplining or ignoring the whining. Its the same kind of situation but on a less serious scale.

LOL, the mom thing. The boys missed a lot not having the influence of a woman growing up ;)

Buslady

01-12-2007, 08:41 AM

Rooish

01-12-2007, 09:43 AM

I don't like the stick whacking, I think Splinter could have worked out a better way to discipline the boys(I liked in TMNT2, backflips!), I can see the whacks chipping away Raph's self esteem somewhat, he is the more deliacte in the mind, more sensitive to everything and their situation-yeah, you may think he's got alot of self esteem, but does he really? Anyways, I dont like the hitting...but then I don't hit my kid as a form of discipline, we've found that taking away Nintendo, his brand new computer and other goodies works better! :lol:

Heh, I don't recall Splinter hitting Raph with the stick... I thought we were talking about Mikey. Eh, suppose I can't blame you. ;) But I agree with you about Raph's anger, and I'm sure he wouldn't take it well if Splinter whacked him.

Buslady

01-12-2007, 11:25 AM

Heh, I don't recall Splinter hitting Raph with the stick... I thought we were talking about Mikey. Eh, suppose I can't blame you. ;) But I agree with you about Raph's anger, and I'm sure he wouldn't take it well if Splinter whacked him.

Im sure Splinter's whacked them all at one time or other while they grew up. Kids will act up during lessons and such...just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's never happened.

Sage Ninja

01-12-2007, 01:08 PM

I've wondered if Splinter's so wonderful, why is Raph (or was in some versions) such an angry person? Splinters brainwashing of the evilness of humans, dont go up top, don't do this, don't do that...but hey go up and go find human's refuse to eat, thats okay just dont get seen. Thats a little whacked out...
I believe Splinter's lectures about people helped ALOT to contribute to Raph's anger, and then Splinter's got the balls to lecture him about his anger...well hell rat, you freaking helped him be what he is! Get over it! Oh well, thats just one of my random thoughts.

I don't like the stick whacking, I think Splinter could have worked out a better way to discipline the boys(I liked in TMNT2, backflips!), I can see the whacks chipping away Raph's self esteem somewhat, he is the more deliacte in the mind, more sensitive to everything and their situation-yeah, you may think he's got alot of self esteem, but does he really? Anyways, I dont like the hitting...but then I don't hit my kid as a form of discipline, we've found that taking away Nintendo, his brand new computer and other goodies works better! :lol:

Now I've typed out my thoughts... I REALLY like Splinter. He is one of the coolest senseis in fiction. Just some things I don't agree with that he does.

*Ponders...how would Raph had turned out if they had a mom figure as they grew up?*

Buslady you are so perceptive.

I agree with just about every thing you just said. Splinter does have a rather hypicritical way of portraying humans to the turtles. This, humans won't under stand you and try to kill and dissect you speil he feeds them all the time coupled with the, you must defend them if they are in danger but never make your self known to them, sends mixed messges. No wonder the Raphael is testy all the time if he is getting mixed messages. Its no wonder the turtles haven't come to resent humans to an extent because they are forced to hide from them because their personal safety would be in danger, but they have have to save them if they are in danger while not making their presence known to them. I would hate that after a while.

As to Mikey. I guess we could agree to disagree. It makes sence that he baits his family for no other reason than just to get a rise out of them. But I do still think that there is some low self esteem at work at his part. Why can't it be a case of both? I don't think thats to far a stetch. Because he genuanly likes annoying his family and because he feels the need to remind people that he is there. I think it stems for reasons i've already mentioned. I think his boasting is a form of over compensation just to remind his brothers, that he is good as well. He may be the speedist and most athletic of the turtles (agruably, I think they all all equal) but he doesn't have a definable niche in the team dynamic. And if he is so confidant than why does he always act unsure of him self and his abilties when he has to put his money where his mouth is? I think his bravodo in some part is all just an act to save face. And it doesn't help when others take pot shots at his intelligence eighther, like he is stupid. If some acts like you are dumb, after a while you are going to behave the way that you are treated.

One instance with Mikey and Splinter that I didn't like was in Touch and Go when he kind of takes a shot at Mikey's intellgance. A parent shouldn';t do that if you want them to act more responicble and use your mind more. I would get more solid arguments to this but I have to go again.

But I will say that, yes Splinter took Mikey to task in Grudge match about his cocky attitude, but at that point it was little to late. Why didn't he do it earlier than that?

Spawn Guy

01-12-2007, 02:22 PM

I could be wrong, but I think it was because Mikey never got himself into anything, that serious. As for insulting his intelligence...yeah, he shouldn't have said it, but I find it hard to believe someone has never said something they didn't mean. My father has said some things I took the wrong way, hell at times I think he can be flat out arrogant, but that's not because he's not good at being a parent. It's because he's only human.

And yes, I know the same thing dosen't apply to Splinter, but you know what I mean.;)

People say there all these things Splinter shouldn't do, but there are things people shouldn't do all the time that, one way or another, they actually do. And I fail to see how that would really screw the guys over. We all know it could be a lot worse.

Rooish

01-12-2007, 04:10 PM

Im sure Splinter's whacked them all at one time or other while they grew up. Kids will act up during lessons and such...just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's never happened.

That's true. Ugh, I hope he hasn't with Raph. That would crush someone like Raphael. I guess maybe it isn't that painful for Mikey, because he seems to be used to it and, in some twisted way, enjoy the attention.

And Sage Ninja, I agree with you there, especially about the shots taken at Mikey's intelligence. Sometimes my friends tease me for being a bit slow on the uptake (I'm a kind of absent-minded person; in fact, I'm a little like Mike because I sometimes take on the role of comic relief and act more cute than I am). But because they tease me about it, I take the joke further and act even more spacey for the attention. Yeah I have problems. ;)

I don't think people with genuine self-esteem need to brag or boast. Even complete narcissists who think they're the greatest have low self-esteem in some way or other, because they brag to make sure others know how great they are. The people with the best self-esteem don't need to say anything. Like Donatello. ;)

Warhorse

01-12-2007, 06:45 PM

Can I put my two cents in? Well, I'm going to if you like it or not.

About this thing on Splinter sending mixed messages to his sons about not meddling with humans while at the same time protecting them. This is how I see it.

If you were a human, walking the streets of NYC at night, alone, and saw a 5'5" walking, talking reptile, what would you really do? You would shoot first, and ask questions later, so to speak. Humans unfortunately don't exactly treat the unknown with arms wide open. It's almost a survival instict that has been engraved into our DNA for thousands of years. But then you also have the human that is curious and would want to capture the Turtles and dissect them, clone them, what not. History has proven that this is a most likey scenario, and probably Splinter's worst nightmare. He has definite reasons to instill in the Turtles the dangers a human can possess.

But at the same time, the Turtles are still human at heart, and it would be only logical for Splinter to give them objectives in life, actually something to look forward to and feel special about, and being silent heroes to the humans seems to fit that bill perfectly. We all need something to live for, and I think that was what Splinter could best condition the boys to beable to get out of life. Splinter is doing what he can to make sure they make the most of it.

But I still don't like the whacking. Once the kid gets past 15, do you really see smacking or whacking as a means to control them? Really?

mik8la

01-12-2007, 07:22 PM

The people with the best self-esteem don't need to say anything. Like Donatello. ;)

Donatello can boast, too ("Am I good, or am I good!" "Yes! I am the turtle!"). :D

Rooish

01-12-2007, 11:04 PM

Oh yeah. LOL. :)

Sage Ninja

01-13-2007, 12:36 PM

Personally I don't think Splinter uses the same type of disaplign on all the turtles at the same time. I think Splinter is astute enough to realize that Raphael is delicate-minded (as Buslady put it, I hope I didn't quote her wrong) not to use that type of punishment to keep him in line, like he would with Mikey. Seeing how Raphael has a temper probelm I think Splinter probably handled/handles Raph diffrently, and probably only whacks him when all the turtles screw up at the same thing, like when they went to challenge Shredder (debatedly) against his wishs. We see Splinter whacking them now that they are teenagers, but do you think he whacked them when the where little kids? In the episode The Lesson when the boys got caught disobeying Splinter, do you think Splinter decked the turtles in their soft tender eight year old heads, gave them a beating or spanked them? Or do you think he just screamed them stupid and gave them extra chores or some thing as punishment. Maybe this "whack" up side the head thing is a fairly recent form of disaplign Splinter incorporated when the turtles hit puberty because they are old enough to "take a hit" in the head and probably is old enough not to take stupid risks.

And I mentioned earlier that I wondered why Splinter allows some things to go for as long as they do in his family, when he should probably step in. Like the whole animosity between Leo and Raph. I know others have mentioned that it doesn' seem so apprant in the new toon, but I felt the animosty between the two was more off screen and alluded to. Resulting in the two being fiercely competive with one another. I wonder if Splinter didn't allow the competiveness to continue because of some ultertive motive of strengthening the team dynamic. You know, by letting these two compete with one another that it motivates them to out do each other and work to their fullest potenticial. that would be a little whacked out. If that where the case I wonder why he didn't try something like that with Mikey to get him to be more motivated and train harder. As it is Mikey just slacks off.

I could be wrong, but I think it was because Mikey never got himself into anything, that serious

I'm not sure I under stand what you are saying here. Him gloating about his battle nexus championship win is typical of Mikey, So I don't see how that was serious, and if you are refering to Kluh comeing back to challenge Mikey, there was no way of Splinter of knowing that...i'm assuming.

Sage Ninja

01-17-2007, 01:07 PM

I'm sorry I couldn't help my self, but I was cruising through youtube and found this clip of a typical Splinter trying to conduct a lesson and one of the turtles act out situation, where he has to resort to useing the cane to get his point across, and couldn't help but think of all the discussions and objections that have come here about his use of the cane on the turtles.

(this statment is made in jest) Disclaimer: the following content may be upsetting to some viewers who are sensitive to canes or flying objects. View discretion is advised. :|

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY79Pg85fK0

So what do you all think? Who was more out of line, Mikey or Splinter?

Rooish

01-17-2007, 03:32 PM

Spawn Guy

01-17-2007, 03:50 PM

And I mentioned earlier that I wondered why Splinter allows some things to go for as long as they do in his family, when he should probably step in. Like the whole animosity between Leo and Raph. I know others have mentioned that it doesn' seem so apprant in the new toon, but I felt the animosty between the two was more off screen and alluded to. Resulting in the two being fiercely competive with one another. I wonder if Splinter didn't allow the competiveness to continue because of some ultertive motive of strengthening the team dynamic. You know, by letting these two compete with one another that it motivates them to out do each other and work to their fullest potenticial. that would be a little whacked out.
My brother and I fight. Not as bad as Leo and Raph, yeah, but even though our father steps in, when he dosen't it's because we're brothers. We're going to fight. What's Splinter supossed to do? Cut them off from each other completly?

If that where the case I wonder why he didn't try something like that with Mikey to get him to be more motivated and train harder. As it is Mikey just slacks off.
Like what? Maybe show him what slacking off results in when it's crunch time in an enviroment that he assumes is going to teleport him out of danger?

I'm not sure I under stand what you are saying here. Him gloating about his battle nexus championship win is typical of Mikey, So I don't see how that was serious, and if you are refering to Kluh comeing back to challenge Mikey, there was no way of Splinter of knowing that...i'm assuming.
I was. I meant he'd never gotten himself into something he had to get himself out of all on his own.

Sage Ninja

01-20-2007, 12:47 PM

Oh good God. I was almost convinced that Splinter's stick use wasn't so bad until I saw that. Okay, that was pretty bad. Come on people, he threw his stick at Mikey's head!

Yes, Mikey was acting like an idiot and was very out of line and annoying. He was trying to get attention when Splinter was training Leo and Raph. But Splinter is his parent, and parents are supposed to give relatively responsible and reasonable discipline that will actually guide their children to be more moral and responsible people. Well, that's what I think. I think that Splinter is way more out of line, and I am not just saying that because I like Mikey.
Yay my 100th post! ;)

ok, I guess i'm in the minority here but I did think the stick throwing was kinda funny. And actually, the cane struck Mikey right in the face not in the head, go back and re-watch it carefully and you'll see it actually caught the side of his face. I think the reason I found it funny at first was because the action just took me by suprise that Splinter would actually throw his cane at him. But it did look like it hit him pretty hard, it nocked him right off his perch, and Splinter must have thrown it pretty hard if the force of the throw was enough to bounce the cane back to him. And you'll notice that Splinter was a pretty good distance away from Mikey when he did this. Although Mikey didn't act like it hurt him that much. He did get up imediatly after ward so the blow probably just stunned him.

As to whether he was out of line for throwing the cane at him? Maybe just a little. I admit I was rather supriced with Splinter's reaction, but then Splinter was wearing his sensei cap on at that moment not his father cap. I've been to karate and seen my sensie take out students that where out of line. But then that was when they whetre very out of line. I don't think Mieky's mild k=joking warranted that sort of responce. But then Splinter must have felt that Mikey should have known better. Although Splinter could have just ordered Mikey out of the room instead of nailing him, that might have been a better way to handle Mikey in that situation.

Spawn Guy, I'll get back to your post when I have a chance.

Rooish

01-22-2007, 09:08 PM

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

01-22-2007, 09:19 PM

Well... I suppose. If that was real life it would have hurt a lot, but as a cartoon it was funny. But I don't think senseis should hit their students, either. I dunno, I guess I'm a huge pacifist or something. ;)

It's common for sensei's to hit they're students. I mean, look at Gai and Lee on Naruto. Gai punches the **** out of Lee whenever he gets out of line, but it's funny when it happens, and they always make up immediatley afterwards with a hug and waves splashing at sunset in the backgrund.

Rooish

01-23-2007, 03:18 PM

I know, I know. But I don't think it's a moral method of training no matter how many people do it. But I know it happens so I will have to accept it. Ahhh please don't everyone think of me as the person who hates Splinter.

Sage Ninja

01-24-2007, 03:07 PM

**sigh** Rooish, no one thinks you hate Splinter, at least i don't. I don't get why you think you are going to get attacked for voicing your opinion.Its a forum thats what it is for. I like reading a responding to your comments so don't hold back.

My brother and I fight. Not as bad as Leo and Raph, yeah, but even though our father steps in, when he dosen't it's because we're brothers. We're going to fight. What's Splinter supossed to do? Cut them off from each other completly?

I don't know. I just wonder if Splinter didn't allow Leo and Raph to quaral (spelling:-? ) so as to let the competion to motivate them out do them selves. As it is in the earlier episodes from what i saw Splinter seemed rather blase about there bickering. And in an enviroment where you are trying to teach some one skills like ninjitsu It seems having two members at each other throats would interfere with the learning of the other two members. Its obvious that Raph and Leo are the more agressive of the four and undoubtly got the most focus because of their agrsseiveness, I just wonder if Don and Mikey got a bit over looked in practice because of this. People who are more aesy going and laid back tend to fall into the back ground because they don't make waves. i'm just saying that maybe Splinter didn't do every think that he could to keep them in line because he felt that their cometiveness was a pay off to mold more edgier ninjas, and put the team dynamic before the family dynamic.

Like what? Maybe show him what slacking off results in when it's crunch time in an enviroment that he assumes is going to teleport him out of danger? I was. I meant he'd never gotten himself into something he had to get himself out of all on his own.

Well I think he could have nipped it in the bud before even all that. Like right away when Mikey started prancing about about his Nexus championship. Splinter takes him to task in the Grudge Match episode but you don;t really see him doing it in the episodes following the Big Brawl. Considering the natuture of the turtles and how Raphael in particular would be resentful of Mikey's boasting he should have took him to task right there. But I understand that Mikey seems to be the sort of person who only learns something the hard way, so maybe he decided to let him just fall hard for his actions. But Still I a little instruction on the perils of being a poor winner from Splinter might have made Mikey a bit less likely to rub it it in Raphael's face.

Spawn Guy

01-24-2007, 03:38 PM

Sage Ninja

01-27-2007, 12:35 PM

Maybe he did between shows, seeing as how he didn't help Mike out. It's like this "Did he or didn't try to stop the guys going after Shredder" thing (although there's plenty of evidence that he did). And I wouldn't say Raph and Leo were at each other's throats in the first season. I agree with you to a certain extent, although I don't think it was entierly for the benifit of the team (although given the situations they get into it could be a good thing). Again, they are brothers. I doubt Don and Leo get along all the time, so maybe Splinter dosen't step in because he thinks it's something they should settle themselves, let Leo and Raph smooth things out as they mature. I mean one of his catch phrases is "Kids."

And its 'quarrel', but I'll ley you off.

Actually I've noticed out of all the turtles Leo and Don rarely get into any trouble with Splinter. Its like these two have no problems staying in Splinter's good grases for some reason. And Actually I have a very good feeling that Don and Leo get along very well, in fact I think any discord that might occur between them is probably resolved with a few words and that is that.

And you are right about the situation with Mikey and Splinter in Grudge Match there is no telling whether or not Splinter might have lectured him about his boasting or not off screen. I just get this really big feeling that he didn't for what ever reason. Its just times like this that make me wonder why Splinter prefers to step back and let things fester. Is he testing his sons to see how things might accumulate? Maybe he was hoping eighther Raph or Don or even Leo might succeed in doing something to shut him up. In eighther case I think he purposely left it alone so that Mikey would dig himself into a hole and bury himself and learn the hard way. I just personally don't think that is the best approach to take with Mikey. But what ever.

As to Leo and Raphs fighting. I can't help but think that some times Splinter lets his role of Sensei over rule his role of father every once in while. I think he might have let these two rivalry go on for the benefit of the team, and kind of ignored Don and Mikey a bit since there not as agressive. All I know from personal experince that being a tension filled enviroment where two more aggresive people are allowed to be agressive on checked that it creates a poorer learning enviroment for less agressive people who kind of get over looked or over shadowed by people with more forceful and comeptive personalities. Who knows maybe Don wouldn't be so wrapped up in technology and Mikey wouldn't be such a slacker and have been more focused ninjas if Raph and le4o rivalary hadn't gone unchecked.

Spawn Guy

01-27-2007, 02:05 PM

Actually I've noticed out of all the turtles Leo and Don rarely get into any trouble with Splinter. Its like these two have no problems staying in Splinter's good grases for some reason. And Actually I have a very good feeling that Don and Leo get along very well, in fact I think any discord that might occur between them is probably resolved with a few words and that is that.
Which is kind of my point. They get along most of the time, but it is entirely possible they can tick each other off. It's probably not shown because it's not as interesting as Raph and Leo, and as you said they probably wrap it up after a few seconds.
And you are right about the situation with Mikey and Splinter in Grudge Match there is no telling whether or not Splinter might have lectured him about his boasting or not off screen. I just get this really big feeling that he didn't for what ever reason. Its just times like this that make me wonder why Splinter prefers to step back and let things fester. Is he testing his sons to see how things might accumulate?
Entirely possible. Remember, they're all living in the same environment, so maybe he feels they should learn how to deal with their differences or their rivalries or whatever. Because the alternative could very well be just having no kind of interaction at all other than what he deems acceptable, and I'm sure he dosen't want to do that.
Maybe he was hoping eighther Raph or Don or even Leo might succeed in doing something to shut him up. In eighther case I think he purposely left it alone so that Mikey would dig himself into a hole and bury himself and learn the hard way. I just personally don't think that is the best approach to take with Mikey. But what ever.
So what would be the better approach? We don't know if talking to him worked, if it was attempted. If the guys managed it on their own then wouldn't that be kind of good for them as growing mutants?

Also, if Mike wasn't mature enough to just quite while he was ahead, then dosen't that mean he'd have to start taking responsibility? It's tough love.
Say your parents don't tell you not to do something because all the examples of why it's bad are well known and they count on you to be a responsible person and not do it. You end up charged with whatever this is because you were stupid enough to do it but they don't bail you out. Okay, they probably should have told you not to do it rather than count on general knowledge, but since you had that knowledge and crossed the line anyway, it's still your fault. And why should you get any special treatment?

I don't see what you mean by that not being the best approach to handling Mike, as it actually worked. Isn't something like Grudge Match going to stick with Mike? I'm assuming given Splinter taught his sons to follow the harder path he also taught them not to toot their own horns, or maybe he just counted on them using common sense or courtesy. But the point is that is what Mike did. Sometimes dramatic examples work the best.

As to Leo and Raphs fighting. I can't help but think that some times Splinter lets his role of Sensei over rule his role of father every once in while. I think he might have let these two rivalry go on for the benefit of the team, and kind of ignored Don and Mikey a bit since there not as agressive. All I know from personal experince that being a tension filled enviroment where two more aggresive people are allowed to be agressive on checked that it creates a poorer learning enviroment for less agressive people who kind of get over looked or over shadowed by people with more forceful and comeptive personalities. Who knows maybe Don wouldn't be so wrapped up in technology and Mikey wouldn't be such a slacker and have been more focused ninjas if Raph and le4o rivalary hadn't gone unchecked.

Well don't they have to be a team sometimes? It's definitely saved their lives. Also, maybe it's just their natures. There may be influences, and they may have made choices, but maybe Don is just naturally introverted. As for ignoring Don and Mike the way your using the word makes it sound like he neglected them, and I given how much family means to him I just don't buy that. Beyond telling them not to go above ground and helping Leo with his fear of heights, we don't really know much about how he raised them, so maybe he encouraged all of them in their different interests, or just let them develop them on their own and thus themselves.

For whatever reason, he's teaching them ninjitsu and that requires a certain commitment. Maybe, since their all their own people, how focused a ninja they are depends on how their priorities work. As has been said he's also a father, and I think he does a good job handling both, although I'd be surprised if the line didn't sometimes blur. It'd be a good story if it did.

I don't see Leo and Raph as competitive, although I admit they can be. Their just different, so what is Splinter supposed to do to get them to stop? Again, assuming he hasn't made some attempts. Out in the field they can cross swords easily, because their natures are different, part of who they are and you can't just make that go away.

Ultimately, I believe Splinter did what he thought was right as a parent, and now that they've reached this point, he wants them to develop themselves, because that's part of what you do when you go grow up. And they will have to one day. He's made his choices and now they have to as well.

Rooish

01-28-2007, 07:01 PM

**sigh** Rooish, no one thinks you hate Splinter, at least i don't. I don't get why you think you are going to get attacked for voicing your opinion.Its a forum thats what it is for. I like reading a responding to your comments so don't hold back.

Yeah, I'm insecure sometimes. My friends get annoyed about it all the time. :) I like reading your comments too. When I have some more I will post them.

Spider

01-30-2007, 09:28 AM

I don't meen to be a douchebag but it's been a while since I've seen the show or read any of the comics but who exactly is "Klunk"?

Spawn Guy

01-30-2007, 09:54 AM

Mike's cat.

Rooish

01-30-2007, 02:51 PM

Don't see how that makes you a douchebag anyway. Hailing Satan, though... ;)

Spider

01-30-2007, 04:09 PM

Hailing Satan, though... ;)

That's for shock value. I don't believe in Satan. I've just said it so much it's become like my catchphrase. I told you I had a weird sense of humor.

And in my experience when you show ignorance on something in front of people who know pretty much everything on it...it makes you a douchebag. Not like I care anyway...I say most things in jest.

Uh, that was pretty irrelevant, I guess THAT makes me a douchebag. :lol:

Sage Ninja

02-05-2007, 04:13 PM

Entirely possible. Remember, they're all living in the same environment, so maybe he feels they should learn how to deal with their differences or their rivalries or whatever. Because the alternative could very well be just having no kind of interaction at all other than what he deems acceptable, and I'm sure he dosen't want to do that.

you know that is probably the case. I guess that Splinter feels that if he is always jumping in when ever one of the turtles has a conflict with the other that they would not learn how to deal with their own problems, and possibly the turtles would never learn to curb their own actions or stand up for them selves. Although as a parent I don't think it is wise to let the turtles always let their diffrences go on checked with out some sort of guidanace. My mom recently had to step in between my older sister and I because of an issue between us and we are both adults. I'm just saying that yeah, its good that Splinter lets the turtles solve their problems with each other but its also ok and acceptable to ofer a little guidance even while letting them figure things out on their own.

Also, if Mike wasn't mature enough to just quite while he was ahead, then dosen't that mean he'd have to start taking responsibility? It's tough love.
Say your parents don't tell you not to do something because all the examples of why it's bad are well known and they count on you to be a responsible person and not do it. You end up charged with whatever this is because you were stupid enough to do it but they don't bail you out. Okay, they probably should have told you not to do it rather than count on general knowledge, but since you had that knowledge and crossed the line anyway, it's still your fault. And why should you get any special treatment? I don't see what you mean by that not being the best approach to handling Mike, as it actually worked. Isn't something like Grudge Match going to stick with Mike? I'm assuming given Splinter taught his sons to follow the harder path he also taught them not to toot their own horns, or maybe he just counted on them using common sense or courtesy. But the point is that is what Mike did. Sometimes dramatic examples work the best.

good point, you are absolutley right about this; Mikey is what 16? 17? By around this age you should be responciable for your own actions. I guess just felt (no matter how well deserved) the complete desertion of his entire family (save Leo) was...shocking, and probably hurtful. I know that it was probably the only thing that could have gotten through Mikey's thick cocky head and teach him the lesson about boasting that he deserved, but i still think it came to him as a utter shock that he was able to push his family to a postion where they wouldn't help or even root for him. I mean I understand Raph and Don not wanting too but but Splinter's gleeful (no matter funny it was) refusal to help must have shocked and hurt him. I just think Mikey has such a reliance on his family to back him up that it probably hit him harder than what he showed. Do you think the lesson would have had the same posituive effects on him had leo not been there to help him out? Some I don't think Grudge Match would have had the same results of Mikey learning humilty and ultimately comeing out on top if at least one of his family members hadn't been there for him. Complete dessertion no matter how deserving from your support group is never a very good tactic to teach some one a lesson. And I'm saying that Mikey is so weak that he couldn't have mustered up the courage to win all on his own, I just think that he would have been to shell shocked to really react correctly to benifit. And before we get into "well...if Leo hadn't helped out, Splinter would have probably relented and given Mikey a hand" let me just say that i have a real good feeling that Splinter would have stuck to his guns and not helped Mikey.

Rooish

02-05-2007, 09:10 PM

Complete dessertion no matter how deserving from your support group is never a very good tactic to teach some one a lesson.

I completely agree, O Sage One. :) I'm not a huge fan of tough love.

Spawn Guy

02-06-2007, 02:21 AM

No one is, but sometimes it is the only option. I agree, complete desertation would be shocking, but considering Mike's behaviour a big shock might be what he needed. And if Splinter is that manipulative, maybe he was counting on Leo to help Mikey out.

Also, I agree. Splinter would have stuck to his guns. I know I would.

Look how it would work out if not for Levram...ian(?) interference:
Mike wins=a victory well earned
Mikey looses=a lesson well learned

Also, no offence, but just because someone dosen't raise someone the way you would does not automaticaly mean they were raised the wrong way.

Rooish

02-06-2007, 09:31 AM

Look how it would work out if not for Levram...ian(?) interference:
Mike wins=a victory well earned
Mikey looses=a lesson well learned

Heh. That's a damn good point. :)

Sage Ninja

02-06-2007, 12:31 PM

I completely agree, O Sage One. I'm not a huge fan of tough love.

well I don't think any one is if you are on the recieving end. But if I was a parent I think I would use tough love if my teen stepped out of line. I mean if you are not tough on your kids when your kid gets out into the real world thwere is gonna be others that would be a whole lot more tough and brutal on them than you would be, but most likely with malice behind their actions.

No one is, but sometimes it is the only option. I agree, complete desertation would be shocking, but considering Mike's behaviour a big shock might be what he needed. And if Splinter is that manipulative, maybe he was counting on Leo to help Mikey out.

Also, I agree. Splinter would have stuck to his guns. I know I would.

I don't think he was counting on it at all, and the fact that Leo did offer him some help was probably just conveniant. I just think that had no one at least offered their support to Mikey in least in word only, I don't think Mikey would have reaped the most positive effects of his lesson and probably just let himself lose. There was a psycholgical blow to him that was more than just hurt pride I think that was why Mikey didn't even seem to try to try to win. As it was even with Leo helping him out Mikey seemed resigned to failure, I think his behavior would have been even more crippled had no one been there for him. And any way, I know Mikey was a serious direspectful jerk but does that really justify even Splinter not even wanting to help him?

I do wonder though why Leo opted to help Mikey out though? I imagine he was as much subjested to Mikey's boastings as the others where, so why did he take the high road and helped him? :|

Look how it would work out if not for Levram...ian(?) interference:
Mike wins=a victory well earned
Mikey looses=a lesson well learned

A little off topic but i was rather annoyed that the writters made the Levrams the bad guys in this epsode. It pretty much removed all doubt that Mikey would win and even removed the tension of whether or not Mikey had would it took to take Kluh in a non life threatening way. A habit the writters have with Mikey is that he can't seem to crank out the super awsome fighting skills unless there is a life or death situation. All the other turtles can kick butt no matter what.

Also, no offence, but just because someone dosen't raise someone the way you would does not automaticaly mean they were raised the wrong way.

I've said this before and i'll say it again. I'm not putting Slpinter down in any way and i'm not saying I would do things better him!

ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael

02-06-2007, 12:58 PM

A little off topic but i was rather annoyed that the writters made the Levrams the bad guys in this epsode. It pretty much removed all doubt that Mikey would win and even removed the tension of whether or not Mikey had would it took to take Kluh in a non life threatening way. A habit the writters have with Mikey is that he can't seem to crank out the super awsome fighting skills unless there is a life or death situation. All the other turtles can kick butt no matter what.

Uh hello, he won the Battle Nexus. He showed he can fight without there being a life or death situation buy beating that half-hairy dude, the alien chick, and Raph. He even beat Raph durring that sparing session in Meet casey Jones.

Besides, the majority of the Turtles fights are life and death situations. Mikey does have the skills, he just slacks off too much to show them, so I can understand Splinter whapping him over the head at times.

Spawn Guy

02-06-2007, 01:49 PM

I've said this before and i'll say it again. I'm not putting Slpinter down in any way and i'm not saying I would do things better him!

Then why judge?;)

triplexxx

02-06-2007, 03:13 PM

I do wonder though why Leo opted to help Mikey out though? I imagine he was as much subjested to Mikey's boastings as the others where, so why did he take the high road and helped him? :|
Remember when he was unfairly removed from the Battle Nexus the first time? He never got a ruling on that one. Maybe he felt that by helping out Michaelangelo with his victory, he could compensate for that, and, that way, Michaelangelo's victory would be a victory for him too.

Sage Ninja

02-08-2007, 05:54 PM

Uh hello, he won the Battle Nexus. He showed he can fight without there being a life or death situation buy beating that half-hairy dude, the alien chick, and Raph. He even beat Raph durring that sparing session in Meet casey Jones.

He won the battle nexus by default. That was kinda what the whole issue of Grudge Match was all about because he nocked they guy out by accident and not due to it being an honest battle (all though kluh was certainly about to take advantage of the fact that Mikey's back was turned to take him out and I don't think any one would have called it a technicality (spelling:P ) And he won against Raph in battle nexus by pushing his buttons to get him to lose the advantage. Normally i wouldn't call that cheating but since the battle nexus is set up to physically fight your opponent instead of useing tricks to win i think Mikey's method was against the rules. And in Meet Casey Jones, didn't he also egg Raphael on to get him to lose his temper so he could gain the advantage? It's been awhile since i've seen that episode :| .

Besides, the majority of the Turtles fights are life and death situations. Mikey does have the skills, he just slacks off too much to show them, so I can understand Splinter whapping him over the head at times.

That is what i am talking about. Most of the time he slacks off and he get nailed in battle because he is eighther showing off or not taking the situation seriously. Notice how in most situations Mikey is the first to get nocked down or thrown across the room because he doing monologue or playing around to much. It isn't till its crunch time that he goes crazy with the ninja stuff.

Originally Posted by Sage Ninja
I've said this before and i'll say it again. I'm not putting Slpinter down in any way and i'm not saying I would do things better him!

Then why judge?

it is not so much that i am trying to be judgemental its just that I like talking about the contraversial and challenging the norm. And you have to admit that talking about Splinter and his role as both sensie and father is a pretty good one. And what is wrong with that? I just don't see how this is becomeing annoying or offencesive. honestly i am not attacking Splinter's character at all, if you look back on several pages in this thread i have given my two cents and defended Splinter's teaching and parenting styles on several occasions and I have picked apart and anylised some of his more dubious actions. I've liked isolating specific instances of Splinter's behavior and taking it apart and speculating on why he choose to do this instead of this, and I think others have too. Whats wrong with that? Its just a disscussion. None of this is supposed to be too seriously. ;)

Jelly Bean

09-11-2008, 12:29 AM

Raphael has Casey and to a lesser extent that Tricertron guy

Donatello has April, Leather Head, and Professor Honeycutt

Leonardo has Usagi

Michelangelo has Klunk

Splinter doesn't have any body. There isn't any body his own age or on the same maturity level or common interest that he can interact with. Who does he have? Four rambuctious teenagers who act as his sons not his friends (at least not on a peer level). Poor Splinter :(

Splinter in the 4KIDs toon has the Ancient One, I know they aren't any where close in age but he seems to treat him more as a peer than as his grandfather, which technically is what he is since he considers Yoshi his father, and the Ancient One raised him.

reading through this thread there has been alot of cool debates in here regarding Splinter's parenting and teaching methods and how he acts toward each of the turtles. I think a good has been brought up, how does he juggle being master and father to the turtles with out them over lapping. Also does every one think Splinter is fair to all his sons in his methods?

Maybe if he tried actually being a family man once in a while instead of meditating and being wrapped up in himself all the time, and if he made his sense of humor a little more respectful towards others, (...)

whoa you are the first I've seen to critisize Splinter like that. And I see in the thread that many have debated it with you. Tell me do you still feel this way about Splinter?

Scandia

09-11-2008, 06:59 AM

Splinter's friends:

- The Ancient One, though he's not a peer

- The Daimyo, plus they both have kids, although I think the four Turtles together have not caused as much trouble and heartbreak as the Ultimate Ninja did.

- can't think of anyone in the OT or movies

- various people mentioned in Mirage

- a few in Archie

- and of course, Splinter and Leo are best friends

triplexxx

09-12-2008, 03:31 AM

whoa you are the first I've seen to critisize Splinter like that. And I see in the thread that many have debated it with you. Tell me do you still feel this way about Splinter?Well...it's been a long time since I wrote this, I guess I exaggerated a little. However, in the toon and movie universes, the universes I've seen, I notice Splinter seems to spend a lot of time alone outside of training or battle [meditation, tea, pondering on his (OT: former identity // NT & Movies: late father)]. Now that I've thought about it, I think he spends a lot of time on his own because it's therapeutic for him, which I can relate to since I believe in self-therapy. But he's not alone per se; he's got four loyal sons who are loving and self-sacraficing for him and each other, a grandfather (Ancient One) in NT, outside friends of the family he can at least have a word with [April and Casey(the one in NT anyway)], Obento in OT, & Damiyo in NT. Though he does share social moments with his sons and the others, he does seem a lot like a loner. Also, I do still kinda find his sense of humor a bit condescending at times.
Plus I mentioned how I think Splinter's main motivation behind his training the turtles was for the purpose of vengeance and that he in a sense "used" them. I know in the toons and movies they ended up kinda stumbling on to Shredder by accident, but once they did, Splinter, in the toons anyway, seemed eager at the opportunity for vengeance that he didn't want to pass it up. I know the turtles in each universe kinda ended up becoming vigilante heros in NYC on their own free will, but in the toons, after their first encounter with the Shredder, when it came to any business involving Shredder, like I said, Splinter seemed to often want to jump at the opportunity to make him miserable, ruin him, or whack him. In the movies, the Shredder deal remained brief and basically two episodes long, but had it gone on longer, I think Splinter's eagerness may have been displayed a bit more.

Jelly Bean

09-12-2008, 10:54 PM

hmm, I never really thought about Splinter's use of the turtles in show, but you have point. It seems that after the turtles came across the Shredder he changed his mind about the turtles staying away from him and had them fight him. :o

There was an on going debate between you and some other people about Splinter's motives, but I sort of just skipped over those posts. :embarass:

Though he does share social moments with his sons and the others, he does seem a lot like a loner. Also, I do still kinda find his sense of humor a bit condescending at times.

How is his sence of humour condescending? Could you give an example? :-?

HeavyMetalCarebear

09-13-2008, 05:43 PM

He has the turtles. They are his family.

Sure, he is older than they are and doesn't always see eye to eye with them in terms of how they like to spend their time but I am pretty sure Splinter loves his family and wouldn't trade them for the world.

Mecha Cow

09-13-2008, 06:59 PM

He may be lonely and living in the sewers, but the good Lord didn't bless him with two hands for nothin'.

Cipher

09-13-2008, 08:53 PM

Lest we not overlook the blind man he played chess with in Next Mutation. Splinter's blind, chess playing friend is probably one of, if not the, most iconic characters in all of TMNT.

He may be lonely and living in the sewers, but the good Lord didn't bless him with two hands for nothin'.This is kind of what I always thought about human Yoshi from the old toon, who randomly decided to live in the sewers. He had to be doing something all day.

triplexxx

09-13-2008, 08:59 PM

How is his sence of humour condescending? Could you give an example? :-?Well, like when he says there was a lesson to be learned when Michaelangelo was trying to grab virtual food in the virtual past they were all in in Secret Origins Part I, but he says he was enjoying the moment too much to think of it.

veemonjosh

09-13-2008, 11:30 PM

- can't think of anyone in the OT or movies

In the OT, Splinter and April got along pretty well (at least in the first two seasons...haven't seen the third or fourth seasons in a while).

cup-mikey-gertha

09-14-2008, 05:09 PM

You know I just thought of the fact that the turtles all have some one to relate to or has a friend to comfind in or some one that they have a crush on...except Splinter. :(

...Raphael has Casey and to a lesser extent that Tricertron guy

Donatello has April, Leather Head, and Professor Honeycutt

Leonardo has Usagi

Michelangelo has Klunk

Splinter doesn't have any body. There isn't any body his own age or on the same maturity level or common interest that he can interact with. Who does he have? Four rambuctious teenagers who act as his sons not his friends (at least not on a peer level). Poor Splinter :(

Splinter has The Ancient One.

:)

Oh, and Mkey has Klunk?! At least, The Ancient One speaks human. Klunk can only say "meow".

Sage Ninja

09-14-2008, 10:44 PM

Well, like when he says there was a lesson to be learned when Michaelangelo was trying to grab virtual food in the virtual past they were all in in Secret Origins Part I, but he says he was enjoying the moment too much to think of it.

eh...I don't remember anything like this happening with Michaelangelo. :-? Is this from the new show? Though I do understand what you mean. I thought Splinter's joke with the journal was pretty mean spirited, especially the portion with karai, considering all the emotional turmoil he went through partly because of her.

I do wonder though why Leo opted to help Mikey out though? I imagine he was as much subjested to Mikey's boastings as the others where, so why did he take the high road and helped him?

Remember when he was unfairly removed from the Battle Nexus the first time? He never got a ruling on that one. Maybe he felt that by helping out Michaelangelo with his victory, he could compensate for that, and, that way, Michaelangelo's victory would be a victory for him too.

I had a small conversation on another message board with some one named Roo, about this very thing and he came up with a reason that makes alot of sence as to why Leo helped Mikey out. This was during the time when Leo was going through his angst fest and he was pushing all the turtles to train harder, and when Mikey suddenly needed some one to train him, Leo decided to help him because finnally he could get one of his brothers to train as hard as he wanted him too. Makes alot of sence if you think about it. :o