Fast Forward didn't HAVE to suck so much...

[Spike Spiegel]

Why does it suck so much, and what can be done to decrease the factor of suckiness???

[Sewer Bull]

Wrong section to start a thread like that, but what the hell. No one seems to care at all.

Why does it suck so much, and what can be done to decrease the factor of suckiness???

Hmm, what can be done...

fans--> http://b3ta.hnldesign.nl/beta166.gif <-- FF creators

BTW - dude, does the left part of your signature have like... 4140.45 KB??? More than FOUR MEGABYTES??? This is so heavy indeed and definitely unacceptable.

[ZariusTwo]

Why does it suck so much, and what can be done to decrease the factor of suckiness???

We can watch shows like this instead?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlobFExM-UM

[Spike Spiegel]

DUDE...I remember Batman Beyond... I have the first season on DVD.....looking forward to purchasing the second...so cool, but the special features SUCK.

Heh... that picture Sewer Bull posted is funny.

But anyway...I think there were certain elements that very well COULD have worked for the show...the future didn't HAVE to be so perfect...

Also, why can't there be an ep where annoying serling gets a sai stuck stuck thru his robotic peanut-brain???

As Raph said: "I HATE the future!"

[gobo]

Why does it suck so much
Many of us were in love with the epicness of previous seasons. That's one complaint. When lame jokes can't reasonably and easily be removed from memory without screwing up the story, it ticks me off. The stories are barely even as deep or unpredictable as the first season. The change of animation style was too sudden to not be a slap in the face. An irritating catch-phrase was forced upon us regarding the time. :roll: The characters have become caricatures of themselves, and character development is mostly a thing of the past.
what can be done to decrease the factor of suckiness???
They've been doing a fair job in recent eps to reduce these insults since we aren't Force-Fed a joke every five seconds anymore and the Turtles are less out-of-character than they were at the beginning of the season. Now, if they could only share that consideration with Splinter... There is still room for improvement since character growth refuses to stick. It's reasonable that the art-style will stay the same as it is now, and thank goodness it's not a chore to look at. The epicness did make it a tad hard for new fans to get into the show, so that's a reasonable change as well. But, ya' can't win 'em all...

[Spike Spiegel]

Yeah, Raph's character is shown in the ep with "triple threat" or whatever his name is.

But where is Shredder for crying out loud???

[ZariusTwo]

Yeah, Raph's character is shown in the ep with "triple threat" or whatever his name is.

But where is Shredder for crying out loud???

Well if you'd ask anyone here, there kind of glad The Utrom is gone for now, as Shredder was too overexposed, I'm not that upset about the lack of Shredder, his origins had become way too convulted anyway

[gobo]

Utrom Shredder: ice asteroid
Karai: likely dead from old age
Tengu Shredder: imprisoned or destroyed in TLS or else Raph wouldn't hate the future so much.

[Sage Ninja]

What is your biggest gripe about FF Character wise?

A few complaints i've heard about the characters in fast foward are:

Splinter: not as bad ass as before, and seems to weak and watches to many cheesy soap opras and isn't as involved as before.

Raphael: has lost the maturtiy he has gained in later seasons and is now to much of a hot head again.

Michelangelo: is to over the top and his behavior has become more childish and immature.

Leonardo: To stand offish

Donatello: Not enough of him

These are the sort of complaints that I have heard circlating around from fans on here about what has happened to the TMNT since FF debuted. My questions is, how would you fix these character flaws the turtles now have to give them back their depth of 2k3?

[Krang's Uncle]

Lets keep in mind though, this cartoons target audience is children. Most childrens toons arent very sophisticated. People have the option of not watching something if they dont like it. If Fast Forward sucks, no one is obligated to tune in. When the ratings drop the people involved with the show will have two options, either try something new or face being booted off the television.

[ZariusTwo]

Lets keep in mind though, this cartoons target audience is children. Most childrens toons arent very sophisticated

Can we please drop that excuse? Really, after Batman: TAS, and lord knows what else, it's starting to look petty

[Ratchet]

Can we please drop that excuse? Really, after Batman: TAS, and lord knows what else, it's starting to look petty

Batman was purposefully aimed at a much broader and older male audience, they say this in the commentaries. It's also a perfectly legit excuse, ESPECIALLY for FF - you can see how completely different the previous seasons were tonally. Face it Zarius, we are not the ones keeping TMNT alive. If it were just the fanbase too many seem to see as being the ones this show should be catering to, then TMNT2k3 would've been floating belly up after a couple of seasons. Why do you think they make the merchandise they do? So that the 20-30-even 40 somethings can go over to each others houses and play with their action figures?

Sorry to put it that way, but as sick as I'm sure you are of hearing that excuse, that's the way it is.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Why does it suck so much, and what can be done to decrease the factor of suckiness???

Simple. Gather as many bricks and ciderblocks as you can. And start hucking them at the higher ups at 4Kids until they agree to can that piece of **** and return the TMNT to their 2K3 glory.

[Ratchet]

Didn't they say that FF would've happened either way? It was planned to come after the lost season but was brought into production early to accomodate the change in plans, wasn't it?

[VaughnMichael]

Didn't they say that FF would've happened either way? It was planned to come after the lost season but was brought into production early to accomodate the change in plans, wasn't it?
yes tis true! I just wonder if the plans where to make the show more kid friendly all along though before they scraped the now lost season for this...I wonder if they had the plan to keep fast forward the way the shows been.
I wonder if people would still dislike it so much...me thinks no because it seems many tmnt fans dislike the space related tmnt storys.

[Ratchet]

I'd say they would've been aware of waning ratings. This is always the problem with good shows... the better and more involving the stories get, the closer it comes to cancellation :-?

[CyberCubed]

I've enjoyed FF tremendously. After getting used to the worse animation, and ignoring "It's Ninja Time," I've been loving the show every week.

Yeah, it's not anywhere near as good as Seasons 1-4, but it's still enjoyable. I love the fact that each episodes continually expands the future, giving us new insight on the new world and everything around it. The two story plots going on now are fairly interesting, and I can't wait to see how they continue to use Bishop.

I even find the out of character remarks to be not as true as they are. Aside from Raph saying Cowabunga, he's no different than he was in the previous seasons. Mikey...is the same. Don is the same, aside from naming his inventions. Leo is no longer the angry turtle he was in Season 4, but he's still very protective of his brothers.

I can see the complaints about Splinter though. There was really no reason he had to come with them to the future.

[Nano]

In this series, I would like Cody to ask the turtles questions about Casey Jones, and they can do one of those stories like "Tales of Leo." I think a problem with this show is that there is so little character development that you don't really care about the supporting characters, so maybe they can give us a story about someone we really do care about.

[Ratchet]

I'm pretty sure we'd then start reading complaints about how "Cody centric" that episode would be :roll:

[gobo]

Objection: argumentative! I think that would be an awesome ep. Only people who insist on griping no matter what would have a problem with it. And, I don't mean you since you were referring to other people... right? O_o

[Ratchet]

Right - It doesn't matter really what direction TMNT takes now, as there are always going to be people who will find something to exploit as being borderline criminal in that same old "How Dare They!" frame of mind. It's been happening since series two - when some people for some strange reason were complaining about the animation quality falling (something I fail to see everytime I watch the DVD's).

[Krang's Uncle]

Can we please drop that excuse? Really, after Batman: TAS, and lord knows what else, it's starting to look petty

Its the truth, why else is it aired on a block of shows called 4Kids? A little reading comprehension skills can take you a long way. Surely youre smart enough to know how to change the channel if you dont like what is on the screen, right? Problem solved. You can spend those 30 minutes complaining on the internet instead about how you arent the Turtles target audience.

[Raven]

I wish Fast Foward wouldnt remind me so much of the orginal cartoon with all the silly ness and slap stick comedy, I was hoping for something more along the lines of Batman Beyond or the archies series, if they did the show that way I would be making sure to watch it every morning.

I really cant stand cody, he's annoying, if they fixed some things here and there I would attempt to watch this show more often because I'll admit they have done some interesting things but not enough to keep me.

For one, the voice acting on the supporting cast has gone done along with the animation, and those are really big things I look for in a cartoon besides telling a good story.

I inderstand they switched there target audience but while doing that they alienate the rest of us long term fans that have stuck with them (which really pisses me off)

[Krang's Uncle]

I think the only way to get an older audience orientated show would be to have statistics that prove that we are the ones watching the show in greater numbers than little kids, and that our wallets are buying a larger share of the products than those kid's parents. Without any proof to back up our support, were stuck playing second fiddle to booger nosed children who dont care about how good a plot is, they just want to see a bad guy get kicked. Dont get me wrong, i wish this toon wasnt such a joke (i dont watch it simply because of that) but thats the reality of it and i dont see that changing until it gets dropped and they relaunch the Turtles years from now again.

[Ra]

As much as I hate Fast Forward, I agree with the Uncle of Krang. This is a sho 4Kids, not for adults. As much as we wish that suddenly this hideous excuse for a show could turn into a beautiful butterfly that resembled that of Batman Beyond, there is no way that this is going to happen. Why? This is a show for kids. The 2k3 series included more adults. I mean, would an eight year old kid wonder why Gen was dressed so strangly in "Samurai Tourist"? We find it hilerious, since it's an obvious reference to the old toon's Rocksteady, but the kids won't find it funny other than the fact that it doesn't really suit Gen. However, since the 2k3 series was aimed at a "general" audience, the Fast Forward series is aimed more at those with the mentality of a ten year old and under; what the target age group of the turtles was when the idea was pitched for the original 2k3 series. This is 4Kids' answer to "what can we do to include more kids?". I know that they could have done better with it, though, but we just have to understand that we are no special in their eyes; we are consumers. We gobble up whatever they throw to us and, though we may whine about it, keep on coming back for more. We can express our disguest through angry e-mails and letters, but at the end of the day it's all about profit. Did 4Kids make any sales from this? Did the toy line sell good? How about the ratings for the show? The only way I see we can stop this Fast Forward Force is by trying to avoid it all together. Stop buying the figurines and stop watching the show. If the popularity is down the drain, the show will be cut, right? Many of you may not agree with my views, but I honestly believe this is the best road to take to get through 4Kids' head that we do not love Fast Forward.

[VaughnMichael]

As much as I hate Fast Forward, I agree with the Uncle of Krang. This is a sho 4Kids, not for adults. As much as we wish that suddenly this hideous excuse for a show could turn into a beautiful butterfly that resembled that of Batman Beyond, there is no way that this is going to happen. Why? This is a show for kids. The 2k3 series included more adults. I mean, would an eight year old kid wonder why Gen was dressed so strangly in "Samurai Tourist"? We find it hilerious, since it's an obvious reference to the old toon's Rocksteady, but the kids won't find it funny other than the fact that it doesn't really suit Gen. However, since the 2k3 series was aimed at a "general" audience, the Fast Forward series is aimed more at those with the mentality of a ten year old and under; what the target age group of the turtles was when the idea was pitched for the original 2k3 series. This is 4Kids' answer to "what can we do to include more kids?". I know that they could have done better with it, though, but we just have to understand that we are no special in their eyes; we are consumers. We gobble up whatever they throw to us and, though we may whine about it, keep on coming back for more. We can express our disguest through angry e-mails and letters, but at the end of the day it's all about profit. Did 4Kids make any sales from this? Did the toy line sell good? How about the ratings for the show? The only way I see we can stop this Fast Forward Force is by trying to avoid it all together. Stop buying the figurines and stop watching the show. If the popularity is down the drain, the show will be cut, right? Many of you may not agree with my views, but I honestly believe this is the best road to take to get through 4Kids' head that we do not love Fast Forward.
While many of us dislike fast forward there are quite a few who think its ok as well as many who are growing to like some of the things about it as the show goes on it's getting better and better just as 2k3 did.
Quite honestly I'd rather see this then them being chased around by karai or an entire season of Leonardo trying not to be angry anymore.
And if everyone stops buying the toys and dvd's etc. the turtles will not be around anymore.
A better plan would be to eat up everything the movie brings out and show them thats what people who dislike fast forward want instead.
To me thats a better plan I'd rather have fast forward any day over say the next mutation or no turtles at all even if some feel that no turtles is better than this I just don't I like having them around even if they are a shell of there former selves (pun intended).

[Sage Ninja]

I think the biggest problem here with the TMNT franchise is this: It has always been aimed at the wrong age group!

TMNT was an adult comic and it should be aimed at young adults. But since the only form TMNT could ever exist on television standards is animation, it is aimed at the kiddies. Since this country is so biased about animation being for children.

I almost hope (well not really but still...) that Japan might take an interest in this new version of TMNT and take it up and creat an anime of it with all the grittiness and adult content and dark story lines intact that Peter Laird intended for 2k3. So that we we 18 and over viewers can be catered to for a change.

[Drtooth]

Okay... I'm just going to come out and make a semi-bold statement, and hopes that somehow this puts an end to the FF sucks thing for a while. I agree with the sucks half, I agree with the it's still good half, but here's the thing I want to say:

It didn't have to suck, because:

The story lines are indeed more juevenile than previous eps. Maybe because of complaints from "Insane in the Membrane" on behalf of the network
The future could have been a tad more dark.
We could have had other characters wander into the future from time to time.
New characters are ALWAYS hard to get used to at first. Even when they are annoying.
To me, the writing doesn't punch much, BECAUSE most of the episodes until recently were "Get aquainted with the new enviroment" episodes.
While we have to deal with new characters, we have to deal with a lot of characters being missing.
They seem to be building up to something, but they are doing it pretty slowly (like Sonic X did in the third season)
EXPECTATIONS! Some expected the show to be enjoyable, some excepted it wouldn't. The ones who didn't excepect it to be good, didn't give it a chance. Those who expected it to be good were disappointed.


How to make it suck less:

Get to the point quicker! We don't need so many "look how the world has changed, yet oddly stayed the same" episodes
somehow intergrate more characters from the previous series into episodes
Something HAS to happen to make the future a total distopia
Give new characters more depth, and less one liners. Heavens knows Serling could use some emotional moment... even though he is a robot.
Calm Splinter et al down. Make less jokes that are slightly out of character.
A death of some sort. Not on the part of the Turtles or Splinter, of course. I doubt they would do that, but even if it's Starlee or Serling or something, we need Cody to get ANGRY.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Okay... I'm just going to come out and make a semi-bold statement, and hopes that somehow this puts an end to the FF sucks thing for a while. I agree with the sucks half, I agree with the it's still good half, but here's the thing I want to say:

It didn't have to suck, because:

The story lines are indeed more juevenile than previous eps. Maybe because of complaints from "Insane in the Membrane" on behalf of the network
The future could have been a tad more dark.
We could have had other characters wander into the future from time to time.
New characters are ALWAYS hard to get used to at first. Even when they are annoying.
To me, the writing doesn't punch much, BECAUSE most of the episodes until recently were "Get aquainted with the new enviroment" episodes.
While we have to deal with new characters, we have to deal with a lot of characters being missing.
They seem to be building up to something, but they are doing it pretty slowly (like Sonic X did in the third season)
EXPECTATIONS! Some expected the show to be enjoyable, some excepted it wouldn't. The ones who didn't excepect it to be good, didn't give it a chance. Those who expected it to be good were disappointed.


How to make it suck less:

Get to the point quicker! We don't need so many "look how the world has changed, yet oddly stayed the same" episodes
somehow intergrate more characters from the previous series into episodes
Something HAS to happen to make the future a total distopia
Give new characters more depth, and less one liners. Heavens knows Serling could use some emotional moment... even though he is a robot.
Calm Splinter et al down. Make less jokes that are slightly out of character.
A death of some sort. Not on the part of the Turtles or Splinter, of course. I doubt they would do that, but even if it's Starlee or Serling or something, we need Cody to get ANGRY.


I have to agree with alot of your suggestions, especially the last one. If Cody pulls a Casey and dons the old hockey mask and says "Goongala", then I will watch. The characters definitley need the new depth, and it would be nice to know whatever happend to all the old characters.

Here are some of my additional suggestions:

1. Fix the damn animation. Just because it's aimed at kids, doesn't mean it needs to suck. And would it kill them to make the TMNT look less 2 dimensional.

2. I know I'm gonna go against everything I argued for but, it would be nice to see ol' Shred Head make a guest appearence.

3. Drop the "it's ninja time" crap. Not even the old series would do something that corny. They had the better "turtles fight with honor" battlecry.

4. Have the TMNT vist the graves of April and Casey, get them to feel homesick.

[Drtooth]

I have to agree with alot of your suggestions, especially the last one. If Cody pulls a Casey and dons the old hockey mask and says "Goongala", then I will watch. The characters definitley need the new depth, and it would be nice to know whatever happend to all the old characters.

If not a death, than something that really pushes the character of Cody over the edge. I REALLY hate that mechaCasey he has. I want to see him get so blindly fureous, he acts just like Casey... maybe even worse.

Here are some of my additional suggestions:

1. Fix the damn animation. Just because it's aimed at kids, doesn't mean it needs to suck. And would it kill them to make the TMNT look less 2 dimensional.

2. I know I'm gonna go against everything I argued for but, it would be nice to see ol' Shred Head make a guest appearence.

3. Drop the "it's ninja time" crap. Not even the old series would do something that corny. They had the better "turtles fight with honor" battlecry.

4. Have the TMNT vist the graves of April and Casey, get them to feel homesick.

Well, I never actually thought the animation that bad. I don't quite like how everyone is so angular, though. Cuz trust me, You watch as much old 80's and 90's cartoons as me, that's REALLy bad animation in that mix.

But I agree with the "Ninja Time." It is annoying, and who said they needed a battle cry anyway? I almost want to hear Cowabunga again.

[The Big Bad]

Dr. Tooth: The future could have been a tad more dark.
In what way? Darkness is relative, after all. From what we've seen, 2105 doesn't seem to be any lighter or darker than 2005; the difference is that the turtles, now able to live normally, have the choice to avoid the darkness, which they do, wisely. Plus, there seems to be plenty of darkness, if one knows where to look for it. So far, we've seen: an alien-smuggling ring (Future Shell-Shock); a complacent police force; the city's seedy underbelly (Old Manhattan); and a government with some big-brotheresque elements.

somehow intergrate more characters from the previous series into episodesI believe their abscence is intentional, while the new cast comes on its own. People have had a hard time accepting the new characters as is; imagine how much harder it'd be if they also had to compete with established ones.

Something HAS to happen to make the future a total distopiaWhy? I mean, aside from the satisfaction of the crowd that believes that just because something is dark its automatically good. Give me one good scenario where such a thing could conceivably and believably happen, then tell me why such a place would not go against the show's spirit, and then we'll talk.

Calm Splinter et al down. Make less jokes that are slightly out of character.While I wish Splinter had a more prominent role in the series, I don't see how his portrayal here is any different from his lighter moments in the previous series (the poker scene stands out).

A death of some sort. Not on the part of the Turtles or Splinter, of course. I doubt they would do that, but even if it's Starlee or Serling or something, we need Cody to get ANGRY.Themanthatwouldberaphael: I want to see him get so blindly fureous, he acts just like Casey... maybe even worse.Again, why? Casey is Casey and Cody is Cody. Why do you expect (or want) one to act like the other when they're completely different characters? In any case, I don't think this will be necessary--after all, we still don't know how Cody's parents died...

Have the TMNT vist the graves of April and Casey, get them to feel homesick.While I'm not sure about "homesick", this I can get behind. Some closure would be very appreciated.

Personally, I'm with CyberCubed when it comes to liking the series. It's got likeable characters, and interesting world, and intriguing subplots. As an introductory season, it's so far fared better than the previous series' own first season. So why not just take it on its own terms?

[ZariusTwo]

Personally, I'm with CyberCubed when it comes to liking the series. It's got likeable characters, and interesting world, and intriguing subplots. As an introductory season, it's so far fared better than the previous series' own first season.


...I think I'm even more a fan of the first season now thanks to than comment (the second season was the s*itty one, never the first)

Come on..."The Shredder Strikes" compared to "Night Of The Body Jacker?", yeah, right...:roll:

[mignignack]

My major problem is that everything is solved with "future magic" instead of any ninja skills or sci-fi elements. Examples:

Problem: parts of the city have diffrent envorments that cause difficulty for the turtles
Solution: Magic suits

Problem: Turtles need new stuff
Solution: Magic machine makes whatever they think

Problem: being attacked
Soulution: magic weapons do all the work

Not to metion the fact that Mikey has become an obnoxious selfish 5year old. And with all the magic in place there's no need for donatello to solve any problems or for leo to lead them in anything.

And as to why the show should be dark as oppsed to the future utopia it currently is. Well, conflict is the heart of drama. In a utopia there's no conflicts, nothing really for the turtles to do other then go see wrestling matches or play video games.

[VaughnMichael]

And as to why the show should be dark as oppsed to the future utopia it currently is. Well, conflict is the heart of drama. In a utopia there's no conflicts, nothing really for the turtles to do other then go see wrestling matches or play video games.
Yes and as we see it's not all sunshine and roses...something always happens to them.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Again, why? Casey is Casey and Cody is Cody. Why do you expect (or want) one to act like the other when they're completely different characters? In any case, I don't think this will be necessary--after all, we still don't know how Cody's parents died...



I don't wan't Cody to become a Casey Jr, just that, it would be better if there was a moment where Cody just snaps and takes a page from his ancestor's book. It's a good way to add more depth to the character, becuase pretty much all the new characters are shallow, one dimensional, and utterly borring.

And besides, Cody needs a boost, I see him as nothing more than the second coming of Wesley Crusher.

[VaughnMichael]

I don't wan't Cody to become a Casey Jr, just that, it would be better if there was a moment where Cody just snaps and takes a page from his ancestor's book. It's a good way to add more depth to the character, becuase pretty much all the new characters are shallow, one dimensional, and utterly borring.

And besides, Cody needs a boost, I see him as nothing more than the second coming of Wesley Crusher.
I hardly think the turtles only way home snapping would be a good idea lol.
Even if they did that I could see tuns of people complaining now about how they are just trying to make cody like casey to make the fans happy lol.
I'm quite happy codey is his own person and I say the best way for his character to get some depth would be for him to kill Uncle darius or something like that or fall in love with that girl but that would really distract him from everything.:dead:

[Raven]

I think it would be cool if cody lost every thing and was forced to live like every one else, hell then we could see some cool character development out of that.

[Stephen]

Problem: being attacked
Soulution: magic weapons do all the work

Not always. The weapons didn't help that much against Sh’Okanabo. Even against Cody's battle suit, Sh’Okanabo was holding his own quite well .....

Also, the weapons didn't do all the work in "Fly Me To The Moon". They still needed the help of the Inuwashi Gunjin to save Cody.

[Sage Ninja]

...I think I'm even more a fan of the first season now thanks to than comment (the second season was the s*itty one, never the first):

I greatly enjoyed the first season of 2k3 TMNT. For a first season it was well excuted. I however am of the same opinion that season two wasn't my favorite season. What I didn't like about it was that it had way to many multipart episodes one right after another that it hardly gave me a chance to catch my breath.

Did you dislike season two for simialr reasons ZariusTwo?

Not to metion the fact that Mikey has become an obnoxious selfish 5year old. And with all the magic in place there's no need for donatello to solve any problems or for leo to lead them in anything.

that is one of my biggest gripes with FF so far. I don't like how they have made Mikey even more immature and over exsgerated than in later seasons. And you make good points about leo and Don.

[CyberCubed]

My major problem is that everything is solved with "future magic" instead of any ninja skills or sci-fi elements. Examples:

Problem: parts of the city have diffrent envorments that cause difficulty for the turtles
Solution: Magic suits

Problem: Turtles need new stuff
Solution: Magic machine makes whatever they think

Would you rather they not explain why the Turtles are wearing these new outfits or where they got the new weapons from?

The writers still explain things, which is what I appreciate them for.

Problem: being attacked
Soulution: magic weapons do all the work

What magic weapons? While they do have some projectile attacks now, the Turtles still kick, flip, and fight just as normally as they always did.

[VaughnMichael]

Would you rather they not explain why the Turtles are wearing these new outfits or where they got the new weapons from?

The writers still explain things, which is what I appreciate them for.



What magic weapons? While they do have some projectile attacks now, the Turtles still kick, flip, and fight just as normally as they always did.
seriously I swear some times I think some of the people are just looking for reasons to be angsty.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I greatly enjoyed the first season of 2k3 TMNT. For a first season it was well excuted. I however am of the same opinion that season two wasn't my favorite season. What I didn't like about it was that it had way to many multipart episodes one right after another that it hardly gave me a chance to catch my breath.

Did you dislike season two for simialr reasons ZariusTwo?.

I have to agree with you now in saying that season 2 was pretty much the weakest season.

It definatley had good episodes like Big Brawl parts 3 and 4, Ultimate Ninja, Rouge in the house parts 1 and 2, and the Turtles in Space arc. But in the middle of all those, it was pretty lackluster.

For me it would go seasons 4, 1, 3, and 2.

[ZariusTwo]

I have to agree with you now in saying that season 2 was pretty much the weakest season.

It definatley had good episodes like Big Brawl parts 3 and 4, Ultimate Ninja, Rouge in the house parts 1 and 2, and the Turtles in Space arc. But in the middle of all those, it was pretty lackluster.

For me it would go seasons 4, 1, 3, and 2.

Agreed.

It was'nt so much the multi-parts, it was the fact not much was done with them, "Rouge In The House" should have been the finale given the plot-lines in the season, given that the last few did not continue the story in the way the third did.

[Tora_Chan]

I think there are several things in Fast Forward that could have been done differently to make it more enjoyable.

1. Cody: I'm honest, I don't like Cody. He doesn't seem to have any interest apart from inventing stuff, which in my opinion was normally Donatello's job. Don hasn't invented a single thing in Fast Forward. One would think all this new technology at his disposal he would be brimming over with ideas.
The problem with Cody is that he doesn't have that lovable geeky behavior that Donny has. His Ninja training seems rather superfluous, seeing as he has Turtle X to fight with. As a whole Cody has no other real interest than his inventions and even that doesn't seem to excite him all that much. He comes over as flat and dull. He also provides the TMNT with to much convenient stuff: new cyber weapons, a fancy place to live, money and any gadget they desire. Kind of like a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina.

2. Splinter: Is there any reason why he's even there? He doesn't really do anything apart from making one-liners and watching soaps. The only reason they included him is so the turtles aren't that eager to return to the past, which they would be if he was left behind.

3. Continuity: Sure, we now seem to have some plots that are picked up on in several episodes, but they still feel too self-contained. Some examples: After the fight with Sh'okanabo, suddenly we have some episodes that contain nothing about him. We never see the turtles trying to find out who he is, what he wants, what this "Day of Awakening" is, nothing. It's like out of sight, out of mind. Or after "Fly Me to the Moon", we know that the turtles and Cody got to the moon station. But did they get the Donatellium? Did they retry their experiment from the start? They never pick up these kind of plot threads in the following episodes. Some throwaway line is all I'm asking for.

4. Animation: I don't think the actual animation quality is bad, but the character design is rather, well, not as good as it was in the 2K3 series. The details are missing, it often looks flat and the turtles faces are so angular and have these ugly sharp edges. Heck, characters from the old series look ugly with that design, see Bishop and recently the picture of April and Casey. I see no reason why it had to change.

5. Characterization: All of the turtles seem to be back at square one or have gotten worse, like Mikey. having several episodes centered on him isn't helping matters. And do Donatello and Leonardo actually do much? Don hangs out with Cody some, but what does Leo all the time? Maybe we'll get some episodes focusing on them for change.

[xChri5x]

I've only seen the first episode of the 2003 series and half an episode of FF.

All that I saw on the FF episode was a wrestling match that went out into the street so there really wasen't much to judge.
The first episode of the 2k3 series wasen't too bad. I really liked the animation and how their eyes are all white. It makes them less cartoony. The episode suffers from a really fast pace and some bad one liners, but compared to alot of other stuff out there it was pretty decent. I used to watch the 80's show when I was a kid and haven't seen it since, but I'm sure it's 10x as bad.

I love how they add in those widescreen shots in fight scenes. Very stylish.
I also watched some clips from other fight scenes in other episodes and I must say I'm impressed. Too bad the dvd's are way too much. 3 episodes per dvd? I'm more of a all or nothing person, so I'd like to have them all for a reasonable price. They should go the road of Dragonball Z and stop with the 3 episode dvd's and put out full seasons.

[VaughnMichael]

I think there are several things in Fast Forward that could have been done differently to make it more enjoyable.

1. Cody: I'm honest, I don't like Cody. He doesn't seem to have any interest apart from inventing stuff, which in my opinion was normally Donatello's job. Don hasn't invented a single thing in Fast Forward. One would think all this new technology at his disposal he would be brimming over with ideas.
The problem with Cody is that he doesn't have that lovable geeky behavior that Donny has. His Ninja training seems rather superfluous, seeing as he has Turtle X to fight with. As a whole Cody has no other real interest than his inventions and even that doesn't seem to excite him all that much. He comes over as flat and dull. He also provides the TMNT with to much convenient stuff: new cyber weapons, a fancy place to live, money and any gadget they desire. Kind of like a walking, talking Deus Ex Machina.

2. Splinter: Is there any reason why he's even there? He doesn't really do anything apart from making one-liners and watching soaps. The only reason they included him is so the turtles aren't that eager to return to the past, which they would be if he was left behind.

3. Continuity: Sure, we now seem to have some plots that are picked up on in several episodes, but they still feel too self-contained. Some examples: After the fight with Sh'okanabo, suddenly we have some episodes that contain nothing about him. We never see the turtles trying to find out who he is, what he wants, what this "Day of Awakening" is, nothing. It's like out of sight, out of mind. Or after "Fly Me to the Moon", we know that the turtles and Cody got to the moon station. But did they get the Donatellium? Did they retry their experiment from the start? They never pick up these kind of plot threads in the following episodes. Some throwaway line is all I'm asking for.

4. Animation: I don't think the actual animation quality is bad, but the character design is rather, well, not as good as it was in the 2K3 series. The details are missing, it often looks flat and the turtles faces are so angular and have these ugly sharp edges. Heck, characters from the old series look ugly with that design, see Bishop and recently the picture of April and Casey. I see no reason why it had to change.

5. Characterization: All of the turtles seem to be back at square one or have gotten worse, like Mikey. having several episodes centered on him isn't helping matters. And do Donatello and Leonardo actually do much? Don hangs out with Cody some, but what does Leo all the time? Maybe we'll get some episodes focusing on them for change.
1.While I agree on the case of Cody with him being boring and rather pointless at this point.

2.I have to say something in defense of Splinter because if you actually think back he never really got into the action unless something really bad was going on. Perhaps he's happy now where they are and doesn't want to fight he wants to be peaceful his enemies are gone now.
Also think about every other version of splinter in the history of tmnt.
Mirage Splinter never really did anything until recently in the new tales of the tmnt books. He died of old age at the farm house.
Archie comics Splinter seems to be the only one who took to the action role in any version ever really but even then he was very peaceful.
80's toon Splinter never did much of anything at all besides sit around the lair unless just like 2k3 if something went very wrong with the turtles he's come around and try and save them like in the episode night of the rouges.
Splinters History isn't a very action filled one really as we know him but as Peter has shown us through flash backs in his younger days he was quite adventurous. I just don't see how it's justified being angry about him not doing anything when he really never did anything to begin with but I do agree he really doesn't need to be there but wouldn't it just be kind of odd if he wasn't? I mean quite frankly I'd be worried about him like perhaps what if the guys finally get back to the present day and he has passed away or Karai or Baxter/ Bishop has captured him or killed him. Stuff to think about.

3.You know ok it's time to make another point people are saying things about the show now not having any Continuity Sure at times 2k3 did but at times it really didn't we saw Bishop then while all these other things went on we didn't see Karai for awhile then bam she's back while other things go on. It just can't happen all of the time because to much would be going on all at one time and it would confuse the hell out of people especially children.
And with this new show I agree it's trying to do some things 2k3 did but it's bothering people because it isn't going in any sort of order and is skipping all over the place. The 80's toon was sort of like that as well with oh well we have this guy and well were gonna bring him back now even though we haven't seen him for 3 seasons and you go oook so what was he doing this entire time lol.

4.The animation I think is fine like to say but also like you say it's more the style it bothers me quite a bit also it's even more borderline cheap American anime now than it was before even which was close to begin with in my opinion. I don't know I guess I can deal with it all though only because it's turtles.

5.Hmm this I also can agree on and it's really the only things that's bothered me allot about the show. Mikes still the same to me though I'm surprised he hasn't said anything about klunk though because of how much he seemed to care about the cat Mikes always been an immature annoying brat in the 2k3 series to me that's why I always like Raph who seems pretty much the same to me but he just seems more nonchalant now like he just doesn't give a crap and is all whatever I could see Raph acting that way but we have seem him getting ticked off still like at the wrestling match for example.
Leo is the one bothering me the most he just seems rather dull and has let his guard down to much and that bothers me for some one who's supposed to be this master ninja. Donatello is on the wall for me it would seem that he really has nothing to do now so perhaps he should bone up on his skills on training he was never the strong one and never really did take it to seriously since he was the brains but now he's sort of second brain.
It just seems they leave things out but it really is hard to show everything going on in a half hour show and I believe if they did show everything it would be rather boring.

[xChri5x]

they killed Splinter off in the comics? Well, I guess there is more then one "Turtle timeline"

[VaughnMichael]

they killed Splinter off in the comics? Well, I guess there is more then one "Turtle timeline"
yes in the mirage comics he's dead.
He also is dead in the future in the archie comics.
there are many many many turtle time lines and worlds.

[Stephen]

Would you rather they not explain why the Turtles are wearing these new outfits or where they got the new weapons from?

It seems weird that they have the weapon holsters on the belts from the first episode, considering Serling couldn't have even known that they'd create new weapons, at the time, or what they might be.

[ZariusTwo]

they killed Splinter off in the comics? Well, I guess there is more then one "Turtle timeline"

Except that's THE timeline, so don't expect FF or anything else to make up for it.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

1.While I agree on the case of Cody with him being boring and rather pointless at this point.

2.I have to say something in defense of Splinter because if you actually think back he never really got into the action unless something really bad was going on. Perhaps he's happy now where they are and doesn't want to fight he wants to be peaceful his enemies are gone now.
Also think about every other version of splinter in the history of tmnt.
Mirage Splinter never really did anything until recently in the new tales of the tmnt books. He died of old age at the farm house.
Archie comics Splinter seems to be the only one who took to the action role in any version ever really but even then he was very peaceful.
80's toon Splinter never did much of anything at all besides sit around the lair unless just like 2k3 if something went very wrong with the turtles he's come around and try and save them like in the episode night of the rouges.
Splinters History isn't a very action filled one really as we know him but as Peter has shown us through flash backs in his younger days he was quite adventurous. I just don't see how it's justified being angry about him not doing anything when he really never did anything to begin with but I do agree he really doesn't need to be there but wouldn't it just be kind of odd if he wasn't? I mean quite frankly I'd be worried about him like perhaps what if the guys finally get back to the present day and he has passed away or Karai or Baxter/ Bishop has captured him or killed him. Stuff to think about.

3.You know ok it's time to make another point people are saying things about the show now not having any Continuity Sure at times 2k3 did but at times it really didn't we saw Bishop then while all these other things went on we didn't see Karai for awhile then bam she's back while other things go on. It just can't happen all of the time because to much would be going on all at one time and it would confuse the hell out of people especially children.
And with this new show I agree it's trying to do some things 2k3 did but it's bothering people because it isn't going in any sort of order and is skipping all over the place. The 80's toon was sort of like that as well with oh well we have this guy and well were gonna bring him back now even though we haven't seen him for 3 seasons and you go oook so what was he doing this entire time lol.

4.The animation I think is fine like to say but also like you say it's more the style it bothers me quite a bit also it's even more borderline cheap American anime now than it was before even which was close to begin with in my opinion. I don't know I guess I can deal with it all though only because it's turtles.

5.Hmm this I also can agree on and it's really the only things that's bothered me allot about the show. Mikes still the same to me though I'm surprised he hasn't said anything about klunk though because of how much he seemed to care about the cat Mikes always been an immature annoying brat in the 2k3 series to me that's why I always like Raph who seems pretty much the same to me but he just seems more nonchalant now like he just doesn't give a crap and is all whatever I could see Raph acting that way but we have seem him getting ticked off still like at the wrestling match for example.
Leo is the one bothering me the most he just seems rather dull and has let his guard down to much and that bothers me for some one who's supposed to be this master ninja. Donatello is on the wall for me it would seem that he really has nothing to do now so perhaps he should bone up on his skills on training he was never the strong one and never really did take it to seriously since he was the brains but now he's sort of second brain.
It just seems they leave things out but it really is hard to show everything going on in a half hour show and I believe if they did show everything it would be rather boring.


The art style and animation are the main things keeping me from watching this show. It looks so bad, at one point, I got nauseus looking at it. No show has ever been so bad I got a little nauseus looking at it.

Honestly, I don't expect that the Turtles will ever develop in Fast Foward. This show is all about Cody. Cody, Cody, Cody. That little bastard is the star, the TMNT are just the side cast, and it's sickining. He would work better if he was just in the background, the guy behind the scenes guiding the turtles from a computer or something.

Plus, the whole future utopia thing is a big problem. Theres no conflict, theres nothing to fight for, theres no reason for the TMNT to be there. If they just put them there to fight more generic bad guys, they could have just stayed in the present day.

Thats my beef with Fast Fowrad, theres was no point in making it.

[CyberCubed]

Honestly, I don't expect that the Turtles will ever develop in Fast Foward. This show is all about Cody. Cody, Cody, Cody. That little bastard is the star, the TMNT are just the side cast, and it's sickining. He would work better if he was just in the background, the guy behind the scenes guiding the turtles from a computer or something.

In more than half the episodes so far, Cody does next to nothing while the Turtles do all the work. Some episodes he's barely in it at all.

[VaughnMichael]

Honestly, I don't expect that the Turtles will ever develop in Fast Foward. This show is all about Cody. Cody, Cody, Cody. That little bastard is the star, the TMNT are just the side cast, and it's sickining. He would work better if he was just in the background, the guy behind the scenes guiding the turtles from a computer or something.

Plus, the whole future utopia thing is a big problem. Theres no conflict, theres nothing to fight for, theres no reason for the TMNT to be there. If they just put them there to fight more generic bad guys, they could have just stayed in the present day.

Thats my beef with Fast Fowrad, theres was no point in making it.
1.The art style is bad there was no point in changing it but like I said it doesn't bother ME only because it's the turtles. The animation still flows fine as it ever did.
2.That isn't even tru at all as cybercube has said cody has hardly even done ANYTHING let alone even been in some of the episode at all. I don't know how far you've watched this show so far but the Turtle have and will be the main focal point. I'd actully like it if other characters got episodes thats why I liked 2k3 so much for episodes like hun on the run and insane in the membrane not because of gor or action because I really could care less about those things. It was because the show actully took the time to give the villians some depth and character other than oh argh i'm a bad guy look at me. The show really shouldn't be about the turtles 100% of the time it would get boring thats why I didn't like half of the 80's toon episodes.

3.There has been plenty of conflict just as much as the 2k3 toon just because there isnt a karai or shredder doesnt make this not true.
And I'm pretty sure the guys where put into the future for a reason.
This is a personal opinion and may not be true one bit but this is what I believe. They didn't want the casr of the 2k3 show or the show its self to go down hill so they made up this entirely new beast so as not to mess up everything they worked so hard on those past couples years. So they came up with fast forward to take care of that something that even the guys at Mirage really don't give two craps about acording to Murphy.
So I really think that it was needed to save the show that everyone for the most part liked allot from becoming junk. I think that's something we al can agree upon that we'd rather have this then them undoing everything that happend un the last couple seasons.
But I agree on one hand they really don't need to be in the future but for the sake of the other show they do need to be here so as not to mess everything up.
And just because the sun is out doesn't make the future all happy and sunshine we've seen plenty of action, adventure, and bad things going on.

4.The thing that bothers me isn't really any of this after watching every episode up to date. The thing that bothers me is that the show doesn't seem to know where it wants to go or what it wants to be.
There are allot of things going on but nothing really coming together but we really only have seen what like 6 or something episodes now it's really not anything to base an opinion of an entire show on untill you've taken it all in only then can you make a true honest opinion of the show which I really think no one can right now as much as everyone wants to because of how angry it makes allot of people.
Me I'm just taking it as another world or time line perhaps thats why I'm not botherd so much.
In more than half the episodes so far, Cody does next to nothing while the Turtles do all the work. Some episodes he's barely in it at all.
exactly it's really funny how people can get so angry over a child cartoon character it's actully rather funny.:lol:

[ZariusTwo]

Kind of reminds me how many times the writers on the third season of The Batman tried to avoid and narrow down the use of Batgirl, curiously the episodes she's NOT in aside from any with Robin are the best in the series after she joined.

Unfortunatly, she at least does something in the story to warrant using her in whatever she inevitably does, Cody is showing no signs he's relevant to...anything so far except drag Darius Dunn into a posistion where the audience "cares" about his character.

[VaughnMichael]

Kind of reminds me how many times the writers on the third season of The Batman tried to avoid and narrow down the use of Batgirl, curiously the episodes she's NOT in aside from any with Robin are the best in the series after she joined.

Unfortunatly, she at least does something in the story to warrant using her in whatever she inevitably does, Cody is showing no signs he's relevant to...anything so far except drag Darius Dunn into a posistion where the audience "cares" about his character.
So the new batman cartoons that good eh? i'll have to check it out. It's on dvd right? I saw one episode recently it had a bunch of bad guys teaming up which I like and all batgirl and robin did where fight the entire time..is that what they do? Cause that kinda annoying...:|
I also agree though cody isn't doing jack crap they need to either forget about the kid and live in the future or seriously have him do something.
But of course if he does I'm sure they will have him join the action than rather him being some one like alpha from the old power rangers I sort of think thats how cody should be a comand center sort of character perhaps that would work best. Because I'm sure if he did join the action more tuns of people would complain about it. But atleast we could then say he's doing something.
Actully I think I care more about whats going on with Darius Dunn than I do cody hahah:lol:

[Buslady]

I'll try to be creative with my opinions, alot of it I agree with the above posts though.

Cody: a very flat character, he's taken the fun away from Donnie who is the inventor of the group, what's his purpose now? Nada. Cody takes over, leaves nothing for Don to tinker. I can't STAND the title card with Cody in the center...this is NOT "Cody and the TMNT" ...SPLINTER should be there. It should be Splinter, center, Turtles close behind and supporting characters behind them.
Serling, an idiot character. That cop robot dude, annoying and the stereotype british cop is out of place imo. his appearance is not appealing in any way. I would not buy any figs of these FF characters.

Art: Sharp angles, yuk! They look stupid. What happened to the nice curvy cheeks, and dome heads? :D the look like they's been chisled with a hammer now.

Animation: passable.

Characterizations:
Raph's gone back to his old ways, WTF!? He matured so much from ep #1 to the end of S4. He was great, wonderful...stull a butthead sometiems but he learned alot now he's back to stereotype plus worse spouting idiotic crap like It's Ninja Time...hello, idiot writers, that's MIKEY's department!
Mikey's more annoying although I gotta kick out of the hero eppie.
Don doesn't get to do what he does, invent and fix, with all that fancy crap that stupid kid has, can't he give Donnie a lab of his own?!?!?!?
Leo's leadership's gone sour, he isn't what he should be. Even when its okay to be out in the open, he should be naturally cautious and wary of everybody, you can't expect these boys who's learned from day one to stick to the shadows,etc to suddenly be all happy and comfy out in the open. Leo's stupidity showed well being kidnapped in the theatre. They've made him look foolish when he wasn't back in the REAL series.
Splinter...everybody's nailed it with him. WAY OOC sitting around watching soaps and getting fat on cheese and crackers I'm sure. He allows the boys to run around the room like wild animals showing no resepct to the host. Sensei would have them doing backflips and pushups until their arms hurt. rediculous for him to be there, he's useless so far
Theme song: It royally sucks. I dont hafta elaborate. "We're here to stay" UGH!

What's the point of their weapons when they could just have a holster with a laser gun or two?

I kinda wish if they had to do something in the future, the Archie stuff would have been really interesting. Too bad it'll never happen.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I hope down the line we see some kind of hidden conspiricy kind thing that gives Fast Fowards that slight edge it needs, no matter how light-hearted they want to make this thing, it still needs those dark elements, it's the TMNT for christ sakes, not Freakazoid.

For Cody, I think it would have been a better move to make him a bit of an ass. You know, given some kind of inner rage at his uncle, who is controling his life after all. I could see him sarcastic and slightly hot headed. Kinda on the verge of giving into rage until the Turtles help him through it.

[Ratchet]

no matter how light-hearted they want to make this thing, it still needs those dark elements, it's the TMNT for christ sakes, not Freakazoid.

I remember back in the late 80's, there was this cartoon...:roll:

[ZariusTwo]

Trist, ThemanthatwouldbeRaphaelv is fully aware of the original, that does'nt vindicate FF in any way possible however, because the original could be dark or be serious in balance with the humour when push came to shove ratings wise

[Ratchet]

And Trist, ThemanthatwouldbeRaphaelv is fully aware of the original, that does'nt vindicate FF in any way possible however, because the original could be dark or be serious in balance with the humour when push came to shove ratings wise

C'mon, you cannot seriously tell me that just because it's TMNT it HAS to be dark. The classic toon also has ten years worth of episodes under it's belt, compared to what... barely one for FF? Murph has already told us that the episodes do get darker, and the existence of the evil TMNT, and a number of the other villains is clear enough proof of this. Hell, Shokanabo is a villain that has probably more disturbing potential than any other villain in the TMNT2k3 universe.
Also, a single "serious" episode of the classic toon has more one-liners and bad dialogue than a Schwarzenegger movie. Thematically, sure they could be darker than the others, but that's not exactly hard. People these days, especially of our age group are lucky enough to have had Batman: TAS, The Real Ghostbusters, Transformers and a vast number of other cartoons that managed to skirt around the edges of parents groups and ratings boards because that's simply the way it was back then. Look at the fuss that was kicked up about IITM. Compare that to some episodes of Batman. They're pretty much on the same level in terms of themes and visual content, but in this day and this age where everything has to be nice and safe to avoid extreme thinking parents getting up studio asses, those days are unfortunately long gone. Sure we get shows being played on Toonami and Adult Swim and whatever else, but they're made for a very particular audience and for TMNT to continue as long as it has, I'm pretty damn sure it would've needed that younger audience. I'm thankful we got a show as dark as we did, because it's almost unheard of for a TV show to be the way it is AND be screened in primetime for kids.
MOTU is a great example of this. The new show was supremely darker than the old, and because of that, it didn't fly well with kids or parents, and because of that, the toys - which were undeniable awesome - flubbed horrendously, which in turn led to Mattel pulling the plug. Extreme Ghostbusters was the same, and I'm sure if Transformers had've picked up where it left off in the 80's instead of going all Pokemon with Armada in it's big resurgence, it would've gone the way of the Masters as well.

[ZariusTwo]

And Trist, ThemanthatwouldbeRaphaelv is fully aware of the original, that does'nt vindicate FF in any way possible however, because the original could be dark or be serious in balance with the humour when push came to shove ratings wise

C'mon, you cannot seriously tell me that just because it's TMNT it HAS to be dark. The classic toon also has ten years worth of episodes under it's belt, compared to what... barely one for FF? Murph has already told us that the episodes do get darker, and the existence of the evil TMNT, and a number of the other villains is clear enough proof of this. Hell, Shokanabo is a villain that has probably more disturbing potential than any other villain in the TMNT2k3 universe.

Lord Dregg potential I'm sure. He's overrated, and the Dark Turtles are as desperate a plug as the Turtle's mutations were in the final Red Sky seasons

Also, a single "serious" episode of the classic toon has more one-liners and bad dialogue than a Schwarzenegger movie.

1. The one-liners, compared to the s*itty humour in the new series, is funny.

2. The new series has had worse dialouge in it's darkest episodes. Yes, the intent behind the story is there, but sometimes the delivery made it impossible to really listen to.

3. The original cast could deliver a line so well, you beleived it sounded great, the new VA cast took a long time to really sink into the roles

No other season is guilty of this bad acting than season two.

sure they could be darker than the others, but that's not exactly hard. People these days, especially of our age group are lucky enough to have had Batman: TAS, The Real Ghostbusters, Transformers and a vast number of other cartoons that managed to skirt around the edges of parents groups and ratings boards because that's simply the way it was back then. Look at the fuss that was kicked up about IITM. Compare that to some episodes of Batman. They're pretty much on the same level in terms of themes and visual content, but in this day and this age where everything has to be nice and safe to avoid extreme thinking parents getting up studio asses, those days are unfortunately long gone.

I don't think so, Teen Titans, C: KND, Avatar, and the vastly improved The Batman have been just as capable of saying they too have pushed the envelope and kept the intense style of those shows alive very well.

Heck, the very reason the next Spider-Man cartoon is being released exclusivley on DVD, and why Ultimate Avengers is a direct-to-DVD movie series is to tell things censors simply won't allow.

MOTU is a great example of this. The new show was supremely darker than the old

Nah, one good season, and one overrated poor season does'nt give it that distinction, I don't even think it's as good as the New Adventures of He-Man.

That series met it's end because of poor toy management as well as CN not knowing what to do with it due to poor ratings, people were'nt watching it because it was "dark", they just did'nt care about He-Man in the same way they cared about the Transformers, hence the superior ratings for the anime seasons.

[Ratchet]

Lord Dregg potential I'm sure. He's overrated, and the Dark Turtles are as desperate a plug as the Turtle's mutations were in the final Red Sky seasons

He's been in - what? - two episodes so far, in a show you decided you hated before it even started. And that desperate plug in the Red Sky season - isn't that the 'serious and darker' story telling you say is better than anything FF has done?

1. The one-liners, compared to the s*itty humour in the new series, is funny.

2. The new series has had worse dialouge in it's darkest episodes. Yes, the intent behind the story is there, but sometimes the delivery made it impossible to really listen to.

3. The original cast could deliver a line so well, you beleived it sounded great, the new VA cast took a long time to really sink into the roles

No other season is guilty of this bad acting than season two.

Yeah, but we're not talking season two here, we're talking FF (unless you mean season 2 of the old series - which from watching again recently - is still pretty much on the same level as series 3...).
1. Yeah, but does the TARGET AUDIENCE care?
2. The old series had CONSISTENTLY bad dialogue. Would you prefer the Turtles broke the fourth wall in the new series, or dish out the same number of awful cliches, puns, corny or hammy heroic lines? There were far more eye-rollers and groanworthy chunks of dialogue present in the old series, and it was deliberately written that way.
3. The original cast were also pretty seasoned by the time Turtles came around, not to mention some of the hardest working VA in the industry. The old toon was also presented in such away that kids needed to be able to latch on completely immediately. How many drawn arcs were in the old toon? The new toon, while it had a slight sense of immediacy, expected viewers to grow with the characters and allow them time to develope, and given the tone of the new show, the audience was clearly a little older and more capable mentally of grasping these things. How many shows had season long arcs ala Lost Season back in those days - that succeeded, might I add?

I don't think so, Teen Titans, C: KND, Avatar, and the vastly improved The Batman have been just as capable of saying they too have pushed the envelope and kept the intense style of those shows alive very well.

Heck, the very reason the next Spider-Man cartoon is being released exclusivley on DVD, and why Ultimate Avengers is a direct-to-DVD movie series is to tell things censors simply won't allow.


Nah, Teen Titans will never have anything like the content in Batman's Two-face or Clayface stories. I don't think we're too likely to see any episodes where a female villain kidnaps a family to call it her own because she can't concieve (and because of that creates disgusting Pod-Children). And how has Codename Kids Next Door and Avatar pushed the envelope? We've seen what 'pushing the envelope' is - hence IITM. And the style of those shows is in a completely different direction to the shows we're talking about.

And the DVD thing - that's the reason they're released on DVD, there's a lot less content control on TV. Why do you think so many films get edited for TV? or shows get pulled, axed, edited, whatever on television? A DVD has a classification, and considering it doesn't have any particular screening time it's striving to play in to get through to it's audience, it doesn't have to worry about any of those things. TMNT would probably be far less successful as a show if it were released straight to DVD. Sure, we could get some awesome stuff - but how long do you think it would last? I doubt very much that it would make enough money back to allow for the multitude of DVD's we've been fortunate enough to get so far. Why? because the merchandising wouldn't EVER factor into a straight to dvd release - why do you think there are no plans for LS to hit DVD in North America? I don't see any Ultimate Avengers figures, I've never seen any toys from a S2DVD Disney sequel either. Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer to have a darker, grittier S2DVD TMNT, but with TMNT being what it is in the eye of the world in general (ie; NOT us fans), it's 1)not likely to happen anytime soon, and 2)not something that even if it does happen - is going to set the world on fire.

Marvel can also afford to put these properties out on DVD. Even if they don't do huge numbers, which is likely, do you really think that puts even the slightest dent in Marvel's bank right now?

Nah, one good season, and one overrated poor season does'nt give it that distinction, I don't even think it's as good as the New Adventures of He-Man.

That series met it's end because of poor toy management as well as CN not knowing what to do with it due to poor ratings, people were'nt watching it because it was "dark", they just did'nt care about He-Man in the same way they cared about the Transformers, hence the superior ratings for the anime seasons.


It doesn't particularly matter how poorly the toys were handled. There were fewer variations on He-man and Skeletor than there are on the Turtles. Even ancillory characters were easier to find than the ones in the new TMNT line. See, the majority of the He-Man fanbase loved how dark it was - the KIDS - the TARGET AUDIENCE didn't - and while Mike Young Productions kept up with the fanbase - giving a lot of nods to the old show - it failed to appeal to kids in the way the old show did. So when kids don't care, toys don't sell, and when your show depends largely on a toyline to keep going, you're doomed.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I remember back in the late 80's, there was this cartoon...:roll:

The 80's show had a few dark elements....and as soon as I think of them I'll let you know.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

1. The one-liners, compared to the s*itty humour in the new series, is funny.

2. The new series has had worse dialouge in it's darkest episodes. Yes, the intent behind the story is there, but sometimes the delivery made it impossible to really listen to.

3. The original cast could deliver a line so well, you beleived it sounded great, the new VA cast took a long time to really sink into the roles

No other season is guilty of this bad acting than season two.




1. After going back and watching those episodes, I beg to differ on some cases.

2. Care to elaborate on that some more.

3. Now that I completley disagree with you on. The new VA's got it quickly. Especially the VA's of the Turtles. I've watched the first episode 10 times already, they got the roles down from the start. These guys fit there roles, I consider Scottie Ray the best Shredder voice, he actually made Shredder sound, menacing, like a really villian should. And Michael Sinterniklaas did an outstanding job as angry Leo in season 4. There are few that could have done it better.

[Drtooth]

The old series had CONSISTENTLY bad dialogue.

Krang saying "I prefer my seafood without flies" comes to mind, actually.:D

Personally, I just want to say, FF is coming along nicely for what it is. And I don't think Shokananana or whatever the hell is as one dimentional and boring as Dregg was. For the series, I feel the episodes have gotten better, but as a whole (the whole of 2003 that is) it needs much more work.

[Spitfire]

Okay that's about it for me. yeah FF isn't the best vision of TMNT ever, hell I don't even watch it or care to. I in fact choose to ignore it.

When something I like has something I don't like in it I ignore it. Makes me still love what I like. Example, Hellsing has these parts in the manga and the show where it goes really cartoony and then there's some dialog that's supposed to be funny but isn't. It's horrible but I ignore it, I also choose to ignore the awful first anime.

A more recent one is the video game Marvel Ultimate Alliance. I like using Deadpool but I utterly hate his terrible voice acting and the fact that he has to say stupid one liners every 3 seconds. But I tolerate it because I like the game. Just like you guys all tolerated the turtles annoying one liners in the newer TMNT video games that have come out.

So what am I getting at? Don't like FF fine, can it. The creators know by now most of us don't like it and senseless whining won't change anything. Do you work better when you have people on your ass all the time telling you what you create sucks? What the hell kind of encouragement is that. At least be nice about it, "I liked the old style better but this new one isn't that bad" as opposed to "OMFG t3h sty13 i2 gh3y! TMNT iZ ru1N2d"

You don't like FF ignore it like I have been, and let people who do like it talk about it and discuss it without 10 people jumping in telling them their tastes suck. You know how annoying that is? wouldn't be so bad but you guys hound these people just leave them alone seriously. They enjoy it let them. Just because your spiteful about it doesn't mean others have to be.

TMNT will be back one day in a form that we will all love I'm sure, and when the new movie comes out there's another step forward to a different TMNT. Until then relax and enjoy what we have gotten thus far.

[Drtooth]

Okay that's about it for me. yeah FF isn't the best vision of TMNT ever, hell I don't even watch it or care to. I in fact choose to ignore it.

When something I like has something I don't like in it I ignore it.

That's basically how I felt about the Live action show. I watched up until that GIrl Turtle came in and Splinter was caught in the other dimention.

AS far as this show goes, I think FF is the worst thing about the 2003 series, but I still like it. It's not that bad, at least it's better than some of the filler in the last season about them fighting Atlintians and that whole thing about the two alien queens. They REALLY should have broadcast them in a different order. Too many similar episodes may have drug the ratings under.

As I've said, you work with the materials you got. When you have crappy materials, you get a crappy project, but you can still make the most of it. That's why I had to spend a fortune in paints for one class alone my junior year at college.

I really think that the show had and currently has the potential to be really good or really bad. So far it's inbetween, and starting to get slightly better. I'm just really disappointed that Shok'nabo isn't Cody's uncle. They both have the same body mass and all. I can really see they're working up to something really big, but like Sonic X's final season, we're going to have to wait a while for anything to come up. Especially since the episodes boarder on filler too often.


TMNT will be back one day in a form that we will all love I'm sure, and when the new movie comes out there's another step forward to a different TMNT. Until then relax and enjoy what we have gotten thus far.

Exactly. You don't have to like FF. maybe something better's on the horizon, maybe it isn't. All I know, is if it can at least solve the Playmates toys woes of releasing those stupid Paleo Patrol figures that just don't seem to move so we can have the line extended another year, I'm all for it. They seem to be selling steadily so far. All I wanted was some sort of throwback line, in which older characters are redesigned for collectors (I.e. A better articulated and sculpted Bebop and Rocksteady).

[ZariusTwo]

Trist, either you're VERY biased towards the new series (something that never helps where F*ck Forward is concerned), or you're fairly ignorant about the original, but it did not have "consistently bad dialouge", unless you count funny pop culture jokes and social comment puns that go above your head consistently bad.

That's the weakest flaw of Original series bashers, they don't "get" the series at all.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Trist, either you're VERY biased towards the new series (something that never helps where F*ck Forward is concerned), or you're fairly ignorant about the original, but it did not have "consistently bad dialouge", unless you count funny pop culture jokes and social comment puns that go above your head consistently bad.

That's the weakest flaw of Original series bashers, they don't "get" the series at all.

Anything that came out of Raph's mouth was pure gold.

[Ratchet]

Zarius, I don't particularly care whether you like it or not, it's your choice and I'm cool with that, I'm just tired of seeing the same old wheel being spun over and over again. Fast Forward is here, it IS getting better, and there's nothing anyone can do about it but complain and get it yanked. Of course, when that happens everyone will be up in arms because there's no more TMNT on TV.

Now, I'm not bashing the original show, that's how you're reading it. I grew up on the original show, but I was also reading Mirage's comics at the same time, and heavily favoured the comics to the show, even at a young age.

Don't tell me I'm ignorant either dude, you know me through a couple of posts, and simply don't agree with what I'm saying. That doesn't make me ignorant. You say I don't "get" the original show. What was to "get"? It was a clear cut case of good vs evil, presented in a fun, humourous and action filled way for KIDS. And I loved (and still do) that.

For the life of me, I can't recall The Shredder, Krang, Stockman, Michelangelo, Leonardo or anyone else really EXCEPT RAPH saying anything genuinely socially poignant, and I just finished watching the five DVD's presently out on the market over the past couple of days this morning. Sure some of the pop culture reference elicit a giggle everynow and then, but when you put one or two lines against the other twenty odd minutes of dialogue, bad dialogue wins out. I've written screenplays, I studied the damned things for five years! I know bad dialogue when I hear it, but back when I used to watch the show growing up, none of that mattered, what mattered was that I got to see the Ninja Turtles do their thing and maybe see a cool new baddie. You can't honestly tell me (unless you were over twenty when this show first started) that you sat there and debated the moral and social implications of a couple of off-the-cuff remarks that made kids laugh and maybe the parents if they were watching with their kid.

Fact is, this show was softened for children. If it were some sort of socially aware goldmine of comedy, it would be on at primetime with the Simpsons - and while I would MUCH rather watch TMNT than the Simpsons, it simply isn't the case. The original TMNT was a KIDS show, and still is a show for kids. Just because you're a little older and wiser to the world, that doesn't mean that the show suddenly snapped to and said "Crap! Zarius is socially aware of things now, better start getting our intelligent game on!"

Now back to FF. Just because I happen to enjoy the direction it's going in doesn't mean I like it more than 2k3 or the original. As far as I'm concerned every series to date has had it's ups and downs, but FF is still in early days, and the original didn't really become what everyone remembers it best for until it was late into it's second season and going into it's third! Just because you don't like the way it's going, doesn't mean others don't, and it doesn't mean everyone HAS to agree with you or that the arguments being drawn out time and time again are going to sway the balance at all. The only thing that can do that is the show. If the show starts going downhill, people will respond, likewise if it gets better too. But at this stage, it's simply too early to tell, and judging by what Steve Murphy has told us, and the progressive turns the episodes have been making (however noticable), things are changing. Who the hell saw the Shredder being an Utrom coming? Or the Lost Season's direction? Eleven episodes into the 2k3 show, we were only just getting to know The Shredder.

[Drtooth]

Hmmm... I forsee this thread being locked some time soon... speaking purely as a bi-partisan observer.

[Ratchet]

Me too, I've said all I'm saying on it, because, as I said, we've been through all this before. So with that, I'm out of this thread. I'm not going to keep prattling on about it, I say we call it an agree to disagree simply through a matter of people's natural differences in both taste and opinions, both of which anyone should be entitled to. I just get riled up when someone tells me I'm ignorant to something I've held closer than many other things for the better part of twenty or so years.

[Drtooth]

I say we call it an agree to disagree simply through a matter of people's natural differences in both taste and opinions, both of which anyone should be entitled to.

I'll agree to agree on that one. I mean, if this was a thread about how they could have made the show better in the fan's view, it could have had potential as a subject.


But dragging it down as another FF Sucks/No it doesn't type discussion, I'm outie too.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Trist, I gotta say. I wish I colud see it your way. I've given fast Foward chance after chance, but I could never get past how bad the new art direction is.

I've tried watching it like I do the old show, remebering that it's a completley diffrent show from the 2L3, but then I remeber, it's the same show as the 2K3, and then come the stomach pains.