CGI vs. Live - random thoughts

[Buslady]

One of the things I liked about the live action was it's realism. They don't go flying off buildings like they weight nothing, skittering down wires and running rooftops. This is one of the things that bother me about the new movie, this CGI thing makes them look lightweight. In the live movies, they were heavy and slower, making them believable. They shouldn't be bouncing off the walls flying over things as seen in the teaser. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the movie but I can't connect it to the originals.
I know there's one shot in the teaser I can't stand, they're about to leap off the roof and they're suspended for a second, that IS SO BAD. Gravity exists here, they should be falling as soon as they go over.


Thoughts?

[Ratchet]

One of the things I liked about the live action was it's realism. They don't go flying off buildings like they weight nothing, skittering down wires and running rooftops. This is one of the things that bother me about the new movie, this CGI thing makes them look lightweight. In the live movies, they were heavy and slower, making them believable. They shouldn't be bouncing off the walls flying over things as seen in the teaser. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the movie but I can't connect it to the originals.
I know there's one shot in the teaser I can't stand, they're about to leap off the roof and they're suspended for a second, that IS SO BAD. Gravity exists here, they should be falling as soon as they go over.


Thoughts?

But by that logic, we shouldn't really be seeing ancient monsters coming to life either. This seems like a fresh start for the movies, similar in a sense to Batman Begins, though this will probably touch more on the original film than Begins did with Batman.

[Aztec General]

The TMNT can do so much more in a CGI world. The actors were EXTREMELY limited in the live action films. This new media offers more to the fields of sci-fi, fantasy, and action films. Also it's cheaper than a live action film and that had to be a major consideration here.

[Warhorse]

^ That's true about the cost of things. I can relate to what buslady is saying though. It's gonna be different for me. But as long as they got the characters down pat, I should like the movie none the less.

I just hope that one day, they could incorporate the cgi turtles with live action like LOTR or Jurassic Park. They still have that humanization quality, and can capture the Turtles facial expressions, but they would't be restricted to ordinary stunt man abilities.

[Zelda]

Yeah, one thing I loved about the originals was that it really took the material seriously. While you have more ability to move the faces in CGI....the texture, shape, size of the turtles had such a visceral feel in the first movies. It's heartbreaking when Raph sheds that one tear, speaking with Splinter.... I'm not going to feel that with CGI. It's animation and it creates much more distance for me than the jerky motions of suits.

?!? It's more expensive to do CGI than to do suits????? Really? O_o; That doesn't make any sense at all to me o_o My friend and I made monster costumes, full body, movable jaw, glowing eyes, gooy parts, etc for about $100 each. For twice that and the art skills we could have made something a million times better. Compare that to the amount of time, skill, manpower, $$$ computers, etc it must take to make a full on CGI film?!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Yeah, one thing I loved about the originals was that it really took the material seriously. While you have more ability to move the faces in CGI....the texture, shape, size of the turtles had such a visceral feel in the first movies. It's heartbreaking when Raph sheds that one tear, speaking with Splinter.... I'm not going to feel that with CGI. It's animation and it creates much more distance for me than the jerky motions of suits.


Just becasue it's animation, doesn't mean it can't be as emotional. I'm tierd of people being so bias against animation becuase it's not real people.

They're have been plenty of animes that have had real heartbreaking, tearjerker moments. I have no doubt in my mind this movie can accomplish the same.

Plus in the first movie, (though it's my favorite movie of all time), I always cringe at how the mouth movenments don't match the dialouge at times. Plus with CGI, they're capable of showing emotion with their facial expressions.

[Warhorse]

Just becasue it's animation, doesn't mean it can't be as emotional. I'm tierd of people being so bias against animation becuase it's not real people.

They're have been plenty of animes that have had real heartbreaking, tearjerker moments. I have no doubt in my mind this movie can accomplish the same.

Plus in the first movie, (though it's my favorite movie of all time), I always cringe at how the mouth movenments don't match the dialouge at times. Plus with CGI, they're capable of showing emotion with their facial expressions.

What animated movies did you see that got you all emotional? I can't think of one, simply because it's on a different plane. I will find things that make me laugh with cartoons, but I have rarely felt depressed or upset after watching a cartoon, probably because I can't really relate to it.

But I can get into some of those fan fictions pretty good. Go figure!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

What animated movies did you see that got you all emotional? I can't think of one, simply because it's on a different plane. I will find things that make me laugh with cartoons, but I have rarely felt depressed or upset after watching a cartoon, probably because I can't really relate to it.

But I can get into some of those fan fictions pretty good. Go figure!

I didn't say animated movies, I said anime. I can't really think of too many animated movies.

[Buslady]

While it's true they could use the CGI to add to the expressions, being turtles and limited expression to me, makes it more realistic.
To me animating the tmnt creates this distance as Zelda mentioned, it's not real, it is kinda hard to explain...sure the costumed live turtles are not real but they are physical and being "real" makes it easier for some to connect with them. If I'm picturing in my mind one of the turtles, I see movie 1, I dont see comics, cartoon, or even...*gag*...TNM....I see the first live action turtles...I can truely connect with them, well Raph...I sense more emotion from him, all with his clunky antique animatronics and poorly synched lip flap(the big argument scene, they had problems and kinda winged it)...and yeah especially the Raph/Splinter piece, I could see and feel his pain, shame and all that...
Yeah they'll try to do that with the CGI movie, but it just won't be the same.

just so people know, this isn't a thing started to knock CGI...there is alot of good with it. I wasn't talking money either. Im talking the actual product. It will be interesting to see what they put out for us...this new look, style and I really am looking forward to some nice dark stuff...the way it should be.

[Mindy]

One of the things I liked about the live action was it's realism. They don't go flying off buildings like they weight nothing, skittering down wires and running rooftops. This is one of the things that bother me about the new movie, this CGI thing makes them look lightweight. In the live movies, they were heavy and slower, making them believable. They shouldn't be bouncing off the walls flying over things as seen in the teaser. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the movie but I can't connect it to the originals.
I know there's one shot in the teaser I can't stand, they're about to leap off the roof and they're suspended for a second, that IS SO BAD. Gravity exists here, they should be falling as soon as they go over.


Thoughts?

And I completely understand what you're trying to say; I'm also a big fan of the first movie and love the costumes, story.. everything. However, in this new movie, they can be exactly what they are [or at least called]: ninjas. It was pulled off just fine in the live action movies, but as others said, you can do so much more in the CGI world that is very limited with costumes and stunt men. It does make me a little sad that we'll never have that 1st movie feel back again. Also, Hollywood has to change its movies to cater to the current audience... and what does most of the population want now? CGI. Give me old style animation anyday, but I'm flexible and go with the times. Still doesn't mean I won't hold to my favorites, though.

The suspending gravity part was for dramatic effects, I believe. ;)

Maybe the 2nd trailer will give you a better feel. I, too, am liking the darkness of it all.

[TerranigmaFreak]

Yeah, I also feel what Buslady is saying. I definitely feel like I connect more with the live action turtles than the CGI ones. Although I've never noticed the problem with the mouth flap, I think it's safe to say that this issue is but a simple timing mistake and can easily be fixed with some audio/visual editing with today's technology. Heck, I bet it wouldn't be too hard to fix back in 1990. They editors probably overlooked those little errors.

I'm also not trying to knock CGI, but there's also that feeling of awe when you see the stunt men perform their moves in those suits. There's a little extra something to the scene when you see a man in a 100 lb suit pull off these cool moves. With CGI/animation, I just don't feel it in the action. I'm not trying to knock the animators either. I know it takes just as much skill as the stunt men to animate the same move in animation.

As for a LOTR/JP style live action CGI, I would love to see something like that being made.

[Buslady]

The main scene that was a bit sloppy on the lip flap was the big Leo/Raph arguement, I believe I read at that time they were having some mechanical issues and just did the best they could. Sometimes there are words that can be hard to mimic with a piece of technology, for 1989, when it was filmed, it's not terrible. The tech was brand new, most of it developed FOR TMNT (then later used in Dinosaurs, man i loved that show!), they did a really nice job. Most of the flap was dead on.
There one other thing about making a live TMNT, it was revolutionary in tech development. Today, because of alot of the new stuff they made for TMNT, is now the staple for the Henson control unit system, which has been streamlined and is pretty durn slick now.
With a CGI, there's nothing new being done. Yep, CGI...been there, done that. I'd like to know if they are creating any new techniques, systems, etc. for this movie like the Henson team did way back.

[Cascadia]

To me, it might be a little easier than the live particularly that in the emotions department. With the animontics, it was rather difficult to show emotions because the actor and controller had to be the same thing at the same time. Also, there were limited number of things that animontics were able to do. With CGI, it might be easier but it will not appear to be real. However, it will be much darker than the live version or the 1987 cartoon series, which is what most people are used to. In my opinion, I would like to see a darker and more serious version of the TMNT. The 2K3 series was getting closer to what Laird wanted in a TMNT cartoon.

Also, this version may be more expensive or cheaper than the live version. There is much less props that go into the CGI version.

[Masked Ninja]

Maybe I'm just a freak, but I connect to animation pretty easily. It's the story and the way the characters are developed that matters, not how they look. Of course, that could be why I'm trying to get into the industry. :D

I know there's one shot in the teaser I can't stand, they're about to leap off the roof and they're suspended for a second, that IS SO BAD. Gravity exists here, they should be falling as soon as they go over.
That bothers me a bit too, but it was obviously a conscious decision. Along with the super ninja leaping powerz, I'm sure it was meant to convey that they're stylizing the movie, in looks and action. The Turtles will not be "realistic," they will be stylized. And the humans too, to match. This never was intended to go for realism; it looks like they're trying to make it look like a living comic book rather than a real-life enactment of a comic book. I hope they don't do too many cartoony hover-in-the-air things in the actual film, but if they did I'd at least understand why.

The 1990 movie is still spectacular and I still love it. Dialogue sync still bothers me (as well as the horribly out-of-character Donatello and Leonardo) but the stunts are impressive and the story has heart. Sadly enough, people would look at a live-action TMNT movie today and say "they're still using animatronics? OLD." And in order to get the suits impressive enough to stop that reaction from happening, they would need a HUGE budget that they just don't have. I know many fans of the old movies are very loud about the "what the crap, we want live action" but I think the same people would be making fun of it had they done it that way.

With a CGI, there's nothing new being done. Yep, CGI...been there, done that. I'd like to know if they are creating any new techniques, systems, etc. for this movie like the Henson team did way back.I know Pixar usually has one major thing they develop for each of their films. Monsters, Inc. for example, was the fur. (And freakin' awesome fur it was, too... especially in the blizzard) For TMNT, I don't expect the studio to have the money to develop too much. The "state of the art" muscle systems they're using that they mentioned in some interview do look nice - when Leo's onscreen in the trailer, his neck muscles especially look and move really nicely.

I can understand how live action feels more "real" to some of you. I agree, at least partially. It's the acting that really does it for me though, not how it looks*. I'm just eager to see how this new movie will be in tone and acting, no matter what kind of impossible acrobatics they pull out of their shells. ;)

* unless it hurts my eyes SO much *coughFASTFORWARDcough* that I can't even look at it...

[VaughnMichael]

I can understand how live action feels more "real" to some of you.
Because it is real...:lol:

[Masked Ninja]

Because it is real...:lol:One could say it's just as fake, because it's being acted. ;)

[VaughnMichael]

One could say it's just as fake, because it's being acted. ;)
and one could also say it's real because it's a solid form and you can touch it and it's been created in the real world out of things unlike cgi which hes no fealing or life to it of course people used to say the same things about robots and look how far it's all come. I'm sure cgi will get to that point also but it's a long way off.

[TerranigmaFreak]

I have an easier time accepting the live action TMNT being real than their CGI counter part.

[Masked Ninja]

For me it's mostly about the acting - whether the voice inflections sound genuine. I also tend to notice timing and gestures - the live action turtles really bug me because the lip sync isn't very accurate at all. The fights look really nice, though, and manymany props to the actors for even being able to move in those suits.

But then again, I'm an animation major and I tend to be a little more accepting toward the animated side of things than most people. *shrug* And I'm looking forward to the freedom-to-play-with-physics that can allow the type of leaps and attacks only mutants can make. :)

...though now that I think about it... I do think that CG turtles in a CG world look more "real" in context than turtle suits in the real world. The thing is, the turtle suits aren't real, and the real world around them kinda calls attention to it for me. Which is why CG turtles in a live action environment would look even worse. When the whole world is generated by the computer, the Turtles at least match their world.

Guh. This makes me sound like I hate the live action movies. I don't - at least, not the first one. ;) But as nice and awesome as the animatronic suits were, they are still pretty fake. *shrug* Doesn't stop me from enjoying the movie, though.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

For me it's mostly about the acting - whether the voice inflections sound genuine. I also tend to notice timing and gestures - the live action turtles really bug me because the lip sync isn't very accurate at all. The fights look really nice, though, and manymany props to the actors for even being able to move in those suits.

But then again, I'm an animation major and I tend to be a little more accepting toward the animated side of things than most people. *shrug* And I'm looking forward to the freedom-to-play-with-physics that can allow the type of leaps and attacks only mutants can make. :)

...though now that I think about it... I do think that CG turtles in a CG world look more "real" in context than turtle suits in the real world. The thing is, the turtle suits aren't real, and the real world around them kinda calls attention to it for me. Which is why CG turtles in a live action environment would look even worse. When the whole world is generated by the computer, the Turtles at least match their world.

Guh. This makes me sound like I hate the live action movies. I don't - at least, not the first one. ;) But as nice and awesome as the animatronic suits were, they are still pretty fake. *shrug* Doesn't stop me from enjoying the movie, though.

You pretty muched sumed up my feelings as well.

[Draconic]

As far as the turtles acting unrealistically fast and agile, I have to say:
What's new?! If they moved like turtles, realistically, then I'd have to say they probably wouldn't be as entertaining.

If you're comparing them to humans, don't underestimate the capabilities of the human body. Here's a video that illustrates pretty well what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtdYsd_QRmc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZekRS5K4F8&feature=PlayList&p=685B4A7646D3BFB6&index=5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEbYtOEftc0

Now just ad 16+ years of ninja training to that, and I'd say it's borderline believable... Especially when you consider the fact that they're Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, for cryin' out loud! :lol:

[Buslady]

I dont even hafta look at those videos, I'm pretty sure I know what they are! Those guys are often hired for movies to do those crazy stunts.

Another reason I just remembered that them doing these really hyper acrobatics seems a little weird to me, their bodies are still turtle, there are some restrictions with having a shell for a body, mutant or not.

With the suits they seemed to have that restriction when fighting, but then there were times that cracked me up, when they'd sit and slouch...well, they sure have softer bodies when turtles' plastrons are not all bendy like that. It would have been more realistic if they reinforced the plastron piece to bend way less, but the poor actors would have been suffering even more than they did.

[Spawn Guy]

So...even the live action turtles weren't realistic. At least they were lovable.
Say what you like about CGI, at least thier making the best of it.

[Masked Ninja]

With the suits they seemed to have that restriction when fighting, but then there were times that cracked me up, when they'd sit and slouch...well, they sure have softer bodies when turtles' plastrons are not all bendy like that. It would have been more realistic if they reinforced the plastron piece to bend way less, but the poor actors would have been suffering even more than they did.This happened pretty often in the new toon as well (probably old toon too, but it's hard to tell because all the animation is pretty floaty...), where someone would have to twist his torso and they'd just have to do their best to make it look right. Also things like shells magically sinking into couches. Shells are just inconvenient when you're a ninja. :P

I can just see the computer animators swearing at dailies... "Why'd they have to be friggin' turtles?!" :lol:

[Draconic]

So...even the live action turtles weren't realistic. At least they were lovable...

...Because a videogame has never provoked an emotion out of anyone. Ever.

[Spawn Guy]

"Jump...Jump! Agh! No! Don't die! Why did you die!? I pressed jump! Why didn't you jump!? I hate this game!"

[xChri5x]

As far as the turtles acting unrealistically fast and agile, I have to say:
What's new?! If they moved like turtles, realistically, then I'd have to say they probably wouldn't be as entertaining.

If you're comparing them to humans, don't underestimate the capabilities of the human body. Here's a video that illustrates pretty well what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtdYsd_QRmc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZekRS5K4F8&feature=PlayList&p=685B4A7646D3BFB6&index=5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEbYtOEftc0

Now just ad 16+ years of ninja training to that, and I'd say it's borderline believable... Especially when you consider the fact that they're Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, for cryin' out loud! :lol:


They need to hire him for the next live action ninja turtle movie

[Draconic]

Spawn Guy has clearly never played Earthbound. :cry:

[Buslady]

So...even the live action turtles weren't realistic. At least they were lovable.
Say what you like about CGI, at least thier making the best of it.

But they were physically real, is in, you can touch them...CGI you can't. When I read fics, I picture the muppet turtles and voices

[Spitfire]

I hate CGI, as a whole. CGI only works when it's something I don't know what it looks like in real life. So CGI works fro huge ass turtles. For people no, it looks like crap.

But a whole movie in CGI ya can't go wrong. Either have huge guys in turtle suits or do it in CGI.

Your guys choice, the other movies had less ninja action because they were dudes in big bulky suits. And if they made it live action with CGI TMNT it would look like crap. So CGI is the smartest choice.

[VaughnMichael]

But they were physically real, is in, you can touch them...CGI you can't. When I read fics, I picture the muppet turtles and voices
that was my point but people don't seem to get it..real object = real and cgi equal souless thing from computer.
It may be true that the costumes are not real but hey have real people inside moving and some one talking for them to me that makes it pretty damn real...but I'm to old maybe for all these new fangled cgi kids and the video player boxamjigits.:lol:
I hate CGI, as a whole. CGI only works when it's something I don't know what it looks like in real life. So CGI works fro huge ass turtles. For people no, it looks like crap.

But a whole movie in CGI ya can't go wrong. Either have huge guys in turtle suits or do it in CGI.

Your guys choice, the other movies had less ninja action because they were dudes in big bulky suits. And if they made it live action with CGI TMNT it would look like crap. So CGI is the smartest choice.

I dissagree with you i think the smartest choice would have been an amazingly written and drawn 2-d animation movie in the style of the old mirage comics.

[Spitfire]

Well of course that's always the better option but with what their trying to do and what their working with this is the best they could have done.

If you haven't noticed there hasn't been a 2-D animated movie in theaters in a long time. It's all CGI toons now. I don't even remember the last 2-D animated movie I even saw previews for.

[VaughnMichael]

Well of course that's always the better option but with what their trying to do and what their working with this is the best they could have done.

If you haven't noticed there hasn't been a 2-D animated movie in theaters in a long time. It's all CGI toons now. I don't even remember the last 2-D animated movie I even saw previews for.
yea me either and that makes baby jesus cry!!
http://i1.tinypic.com/1zntx6w.jpg

[Masked Ninja]

I know I'd love to see the Turtles done in 2D. And none of that Flash stuff neither.

Hand-drawn animation is not dead, though, just dormant...

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I know I'd love to see the Turtles done in 2D. And none of that Flash stuff neither.

Hand-drawn animation is not dead, though, just dormant...

:cry: , that statement is too true.

I mean, CGI TMNT will be intresting to see, but a hand drawn movie would be perfect.

Also, youre right, hand drawn is just dormant. I can't wait to get into the aniamtion business. I'm bringing back 2D Traditional.

[VaughnMichael]

:cry: , that statement is too true.

I mean, CGI TMNT will be intresting to see, but a hand drawn movie would be perfect.

Also, youre right, hand drawn is just dormant. I can't wait to get into the aniamtion business. I'm bringing back 2D Traditional.

yes since masked ninja brought it up al all...:roll:

[Spitfire]

She is if you totally fail to read the entire thread :lol:

[Masked Ninja]

yes since masked ninja brought it up al all...:roll:"al all" ? And what exactly are you trying to say?

Oh... I see. You want credit for bringing up the 2D idea. Unless there's some other reason for the mysterious sarcasm. *pats head* There you go... gold stars all around.

*cough*

Yeah, 2D would be great. I mean, TMNT 2k3 was a great show and often had great animation... by TV standards. I think of the Turtles done in feature quality, with a hard PG/soft PG-13 rating, and I melt. I've said before that I don't mind CGI - it's an artform in its own right and the people making the good stuff are in no way unartistic hacks in front of a computer screen. But hand-drawn stuff has its own charm, and I think there's a dynamic quality in it that CGI has yet to touch. It's getting closer - I noticed a little of that magic and energy in the Ratatouille trailer - but who knows if it will ever be able to fully accomplish that.

[VaughnMichael]

She is if you totally fail to read the entire thread :lol:
say wha wait hu he's a she *gasp* why I never teenage mutant trannie turtles! oh my lol:lol:
oh and I was talkin about the 2-d thing which was a comment made to *ahem* ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael
"al all" ? And what exactly are you trying to say?

Oh... I see. You want credit for bringing up the 2D idea. Unless there's some other reason for the mysterious sarcasm. *pats head* There you go... gold stars all around.

*cough*

Yeah, 2D would be great. I mean, TMNT 2k3 was a great show and often had great animation... by TV standards. I think of the Turtles done in feature quality, with a hard PG/soft PG-13 rating, and I melt. I've said before that I don't mind CGI - it's an artform in its own right and the people making the good stuff are in no way unartistic hacks in front of a computer screen. But hand-drawn stuff has its own charm, and I think there's a dynamic quality in it that CGI has yet to touch. It's getting closer - I noticed a little of that magic and energy in the Ratatouille trailer - but who knows if it will ever be able to fully accomplish that.
ah yes I should just expect the good guys to always get the credit for everything and be loved I'm sorry I forgot the villian and good guy rule book seriously my bad. (oh let me explain myself I'm kidding as in ha ha joke.)

[Draconic]

You forgot the punchline.

:evilgrin:

j/k

[VaughnMichael]

You forgot the punchline.

:evilgrin:

j/k

*punches you* there better?:lol:

[Kendamu]

I can completely understand the level of realism that can be schieved with live action over animation, but one thing that always bothered me about the TMNT is that I know enough about Ninja and Ninjutsu (both realistically and stereotypically) that when I see the TMNT not being very lightweight or hardly ever showing any real agility it takes away from the Ninja part quite a bit for me.

Ninja were lightweight and agile. At least the ones who would run around in Shozoku ("Ninja Suits") were. It's great to see the TMNT being more like what the term "Ninja" implies.

That, and I've always liked skinny TMNT more than bulky TMNT.

[Zelda]

Sure, animation can be emotional, I've seen my share of anime that proves that. But it's not AS emotional to me because the texture isn't there. I can't look at a cartoon or CGI and feel like I could walk into the environment if I hopped down a sewer. In the first movie, I could. (haha and I dreamed about that all the time XD ) So.....in animation I can feel for the characters but in live action I can be WITH the characters.

CGI will be able to accomplish a WHOLE lot of amazing stuff for the fight scenes though and the expressions are looking great in the trailer.

Haha the people proved what someone (forget who) on here mentioned about putting real things in CGI...ugh.. scary @_@ I adjusted to Sailor Moon better than I'm adjusting to April's Bratz eyes and Casey's Mighty Chin. Here's hoping Karai looks more normal ^_^;

Makes me sad though, I just finished playing Dreamfall and the people in that were fantastically well done....I can totally see April in that style and looking great.

[Kendamu]

About Casey and April, like a lot of things like this I'm sure it'll look a lot beter in motion.