When Raph and Leo have their fights, who usually wins?

[Quiet_Guy]

And can you guys post all their altercations? I've never gotten a chance to read the comics.

[Rooish]

The major one I can remember is from the original Mirage comics, in "Return to New York, Part 1." This is a very key issue, as it was written by Eastman and Laird, and Eastman did the layouts, and it's one of the major emotional episodes in the series.

Leo and Raph start fighting when Leo holds a wooden practice sword in front of Raph to prevent him from leaving, and Raph starts trying to grab the sword in a fury. Initially Leo knees Raph over, and then they fight more and Raph kicks Leo over. Leo trips Raph, then climbs on top and holds his practice sword against Raph's throat; Raph grabs the sword and punches Leo off, and Leo grabs Raph in a headlock, which Raph struggles out of. Then Raph picks Leo up and throws him through a wall. So the pretty clear winner in this fight is Raph. I think this is a testament to Raph's physical strength, as he can pick up Leo above his head and throw him. (Although it was not shown if Leo could have done the same thing.)

Although this issue had Raph win the fight, I'm not saying that Raph is the "better fighter" (I don't think he is, although this is an argument that seems to have sparked some serious anger in these forums before). But this is the one big Leo-Raph fight I can remember from Mirage. Later in the "Return to New York" saga, Leo saves Raph's life from a bunch of Elite Ninjas--although Raph was caught offguard in that fight, and Leo caught Raph's attackers offguard when he saved Raph. The Leo took on the Shredder, and we didn't see how well Raph would have fared there, because Raph wasn't involved.

In the new 'toon, in one of the episodes... "The Shredder Strikes," I think, Leo and Raph have a scuffle and Leo wins by throwing Raph off a rooftop... accidentally, I presume. In the new series I think Leo's position as "best fighter" is definitely played up. But anyway, from the original comics, at least in that circumstance, Raph was the winner in a one-on-one fight against Leo.

[bloodbath666]

Yea, the return to new york fight was really well done. I think as far as being the best and most studious martial artist of the group, Leo is pretty much always portrayed as so. Raph I always saw more as a good martial artist, but mostly just a really good street fighter. He's trained, but it always seemed to me that raph is just one of those guys who can really hold his own in a street fight. Raph's temper I've always seen as something that could get out of control, but also is a great source of strength for him at times. Case and point when he picked leo up and threw him into a wall. As rooish said tho, it's not really shown if Leo could do the same thing, but I think that scene really implied the strength Raph could muster up when angry.

BTW- I always loved the contrast in Raphael's character. His anger is in a way a weakness, but also a great source of strength. He was also portrayed in one of the mirage issues as loosing control as when he lost a fight to mikey, he tried to club him with a wrench I believe it was. In contrast to this loss of control, Raph also stops someone who has lost all control in the Raphel issue when he stopped Casey Jones when he was on his rampage.

[Warhorse]

This is an insightful thread. I have only seen the Turtles characterizations either on the big screen or the little screen, minus The Next Mutation. I never knew that existed till I became a member on this forum.

I have never read the comics, but I am getting some very good observations and point of views of the comics from other members.

That aside, I have always seen Leo win a fight with Raph. His skill, training and focus, not to mention he is also very intelligent and tactiful, has helped him become the winner in fight after fight after fight.

But in my observations, no matter how many fights these two dynamic characters tend to get into, I have yet to see Leo to use the fight to gain control over Raph. The only one who can truly control Raphael is Raph himself. Leo may be the leader, but I don't think there isn't a soul who has made him earn that right greater than Raphael's challenges, and in the end, I think the hot headed turtle has had just as much of a spiritual impact on Leo as well as any of Splinter's teachings.

[Rooish]

I think that the Raph-Leo fight in the comic was done about as well as it could have been. Leo got in some good hits, but Raph creamed him with sheer anger and strength in the end. Later in "Return to New York," Leo got the glory.

The reason why I think it was a good idea to have Raph beat Leo is that Leo doesn't lose face as much as Raph would if he loses. This issue showed that Raph is a powerful fighter who can even take out a skilled warrior like Leo in certain situations. It's good for Raph fans to see. Leo is usually portrayed as the "best" fighter, so any contradiction might help keep Leo from becoming too much more powerful than his brotehrs. Leo still has the power and respect in the group, and Raph is basically just struggling to hold onto any power and confidence he can squeeze out (not because he's not a respectable character, but because he is angry and bitter and he victimises himself).

Anyway, this is dangerously close to a vs. thread, which I hope it doesn't become... but I do think Eastman and Laird made a good decision in that comic.

[Warhorse]

Just to let you know Rooish, I am a hands down Raphael fan. I will root for Raph over any of the other Turtles anytime, but I am just recalling with what I have seen. Leo tends to be the best fighter, I am be honest about that. But I wonder, if there will come a time when Raph will get down a serious and train in the same ways as Leo, if he would have that umph to top Leo. But I can't see it happening, it's just not Raph's character.

[Rooish]

I like Raph too, a little more than I like Leo :) It sometimes irks me just how unbeatable Leo is (mostly in the new 'toon), but his character suffers from overperfection in some ways, so the other characters are actually in the spotlight at various times because they are easier to relate to. I definitely accept that Leo is the best at the widest variety of fighting tactics. But Raph has had the umph to top Leo... in that issue of the comic I rambled about, and in other versions, possibly. But I don't think it's in his nature to lead or train obsessively the way Leo does.

Movie spoiler based on the pictures: It also seems that Raph might beat Leo in the movie, too (although he's wearing a suit of armour at the time).

[Warhorse]

I'd like it if your spoiler does happen! Dayum, I'll be giddy as a kid going to Disney World for the first time.:D

And I agree with your statement on Raph. It's not his nature to lead. I also don't think it's his nature to follow either. I liked it in the new toon when the Turtles meet Karai and she offers her hand shake in a truce for them to become allys or something like that. Leo was willing to accept, but Raph said no way, and simply left! Can't remember what episode that was. Might have been the City at War eps, but I'm not sure.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

In the comics, it's usually just them arguing. But they're only major altercation that resulted in a fist fight that I can recall is the one from Return to New York, where Raph won.

In terms of brute stength and fury, Raph is the better, but skill and strategy
are Leo's department. I guee in terms of all out brawling, Raph would be the better, but in a formal fight, I'd say Leo has the clear advantage.

But in my observations, no matter how many fights these two dynamic characters tend to get into, I have yet to see Leo to use the fight to gain control over Raph. The only one who can truly control Raphael is Raph himself. Leo may be the leader, but I don't think there isn't a soul who has made him earn that right greater than Raphael's challenges, and in the end, I think the hot headed turtle has had just as much of a spiritual impact on Leo as well as any of Splinter's teachings.

You're right, Raph has essentially made Leo what he is. A good leader needs a guy who isn't afraid to call them out.

[Quiet_Guy]

So pretty much Raph and Leo are like Wolverine and Cyclops from X-men.

[Rooish]

And I agree with your statement on Raph. It's not his nature to lead. I also don't think it's his nature to follow either. I liked it in the new toon when the Turtles meet Karai and she offers her hand shake in a truce for them to become allys or something like that. Leo was willing to accept, but Raph said no way, and simply left! Can't remember what episode that was. Might have been the City at War eps, but I'm not sure.

It was City at War. And yeah, Raph's a loner, not a leader or a follower. I agree that Raph has strengthened Leo's leadership over the years. I wonder what Raph would say to that!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

So pretty much Raph and Leo are like Wolverine and Cyclops from X-men.

Yeah, but more intresting.

[Buslady]

I'd like it if your spoiler does happen! Dayum, I'll be giddy as a kid going to Disney World for the first time.:D

And I agree with your statement on Raph. It's not his nature to lead. I also don't think it's his nature to follow either. I liked it in the new toon when the Turtles meet Karai and she offers her hand shake in a truce for them to become allys or something like that. Leo was willing to accept, but Raph said no way, and simply left! Can't remember what episode that was. Might have been the City at War eps, but I'm not sure.


His nature is to be independant. Many arguments are about Raph's independant streak instead of the whole teamwork thing.
Aannnd that's another reason why I love Raph so much. I work best alone.

[Warhorse]

His nature is to be independant. Many arguments are about Raph's independant streak instead of the whole teamwork thing.
Aannnd that's another reason why I love Raph so much. I work best alone.

I also think in that particular episode, Raph also had a better intuition thant the other guys did at that moment.

[mik8la]

So pretty much Raph and Leo are like Wolverine and Cyclops from X-men.

Uhhh...Cyclops and Wolverine. :P That's funny, because while I don't give a crap about Cyclops (well, at least his original cartoon and earlier comics versions, wherein he's incredibly board-straight and vanilla-flavored; I actually found him more palatable during Grant Morrison's run where he cheated on Jean with Emma Frost), Leo's my favorite turtle. Weird, that.

And I agree mostly with what's been said so far on the post. It also depends on the TMNT universe you're referring to: I never read the comics, but movie-Raph could probably beat movie-Leo (that incarnation of Leo's been the weakest, in my opinion, both skill-wise and personality-wise), but new toon-Leo's way out of Raph's league now. In any case, Raph's temper would give him an advantage in that he could go at Leo no-holds barred, while Leo will always hold back (what kind of leader would he be if he ended up hurting one of his brothers, anyway?).

But when all is said and done, despite the fact that they butt heads, I love the fact that if either one is hurt, the other would immediately hunt down the offender. This is made most obvious in the new toon, which is just great to watch.

[Warhorse]

I was wondering. ^Above poster got a question rambling through my brain about the new toon incarnation.

Raph and Mikey are usually depicted as the bonding brothers. Raph and Leo, most of the time, get along and have their occasional spats.

But I noticed in two different episodes of the 2k3, in which Leo went down, Raph was right behind him defending Leo to almost near the end. Once was in the Same as it Never Was episode, the other was the in Exodus. Why is that? Is Raph more protective of Leo than he let's on, or are the creators in a mindset, thinking if Leo went down, Raph would be the next best fighter to defend him out of the Turtles? What do you all think?

[Buslady]

I also think in that particular episode, Raph also had a better intuition thant the other guys did at that moment.

I wasn't being specific in eps, just generalising about what alot of thier arguments are about. :D

Raph IS protective of ANY of his brothers. Raph will do anything in his power to keep a brother or sensei alive, he'll die for them. He doesn't speak the words that he loves his brothers,sensei or anybody but it's in his actions. He's always said actions speak louder than words; with him that is true.
There's always been the notion of Raph and Leo being twins. Rarely do twin turtles survive though. (I recently saw 1 egg, triplets but one was a servely underdeveloped and dead embryo, the other 2 lived) But it's always been an interesting observation.

[Aignatius]

Adding a thought or several, here...

Leo doesn't seem to be a cut and dried leader, per se. They all have their strengths in certain situations, and I've seen others lead, at least in some of the stories.
Sometimes it's Don who calls the shots.
Sometimes it's Raph.
There's even been times when Mike was leading the group, if he knew about something more than the others.
Point is, Leo never said to any of them (that I can recall) "No, I will lead this mission, I always do, because I'm better at it than you are."
There's been times when Leo had said he never put himself in the leadership position, the ball just tended to fall to his court. It comes most naturally to him, and the others recognize it, and the bottom line is that the job gets done properly, not who gets the glory, or the higher status.
While it's only natural for any group to form a heirarchy, they've worked to make it more democratic than heirarchical.
What seems to happen is, Raph often sees whatever Leo does as a ploy for gaining control of the group, and feels compelled to challenge that, every step of the way. Until he had some close calls with his life, and started realizing that in some situations, Leo was better at certain things than he was... a hard lesson for Raph to learn.

[Rooish]

Warhorse, I think Raph is always defending Leo in fight scenes because that's the only time he feels comfortable showing that he ares about his brother. They are very similar in a lot of ways and I think they have a protective bond even if they don't usually like each other that much. When things get really bad, Raph is there for Leo--maybe those are the only times when Raph realises how much he appreciates Leo.

[Warhorse]

You remember the one episode when Leo was fraternizing with the enemy, and the other three follows him? I just thought it was funny, when Don and Mikey were looking through the sky light and wanted to help Leo when he was surrounded by the foot. But Raph was against it. He said something like they were there if he needed him, but it was like Raph was testing Leo or something. It was weird. I think this was the Shredder strikes episodes, but I am not sure.

Has this scenario been done in any of the comics.

[Roseangelo]

You remember the one episode when Leo was fraternizing with the enemy, and the other three follows him? I just thought it was funny, when Don and Mikey were looking through the sky light and wanted to help Leo when he was surrounded by the foot. But Raph was against it. He said something like they were there if he needed him, but it was like Raph was testing Leo or something. It was weird. I think this was the Shredder strikes episodes, but I am not sure.

Yeah, that's the Shredder Strikes Part 1.

I guess you could see it as Raph testing Leo, but I actually always saw it as Raph falling into the position of leader in the absence of Leo. It really was the best plan to not attack straight out and get more info on what was going down. Although Raph probably got more enjoyment out of it because it was Leo.

There's also a hint of this in the first movie. When Shredder removes his mask and Raph goes, "It's him," he also edges Mike and Don backwards, kinda saying, ok, we are not jumping into this now.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

You remember the one episode when Leo was fraternizing with the enemy, and the other three follows him? I just thought it was funny, when Don and Mikey were looking through the sky light and wanted to help Leo when he was surrounded by the foot. But Raph was against it. He said something like they were there if he needed him, but it was like Raph was testing Leo or something. It was weird. I think this was the Shredder strikes episodes, but I am not sure.

Has this scenario been done in any of the comics.

Yeah it was the Shredder Strikes part 1, and no it hasn't.

[mik8la]

Great points made, especially Aignatius's. Personally, I think it's just in Raph character that his closest relationships have to have some sort of animosity mixed into it: he taunts Mikey all the time, frequently calls Casey a "bonehead", and butts heads with Leo, but now and then you see glimpses that Raph would go through hell for any of them. Sometimes I think people tend to exaggerate the animosity between the two of them; they do get along--you see them hanging out by themselves and teasing each other and having rooftop races. If they fought all the time, I don't think the team would be half as effective as it is. In fact, I think Raph might be more protective of Leo (I mean, how many times has he been the first to yell out the latter's name when he gets threatened, or hurt? I'm thinking "Notes from the Underground Pt. 3" here, especially) than he'll admit, maybe because despite their differences, they might understand each other in a way that their less intense brothers won't.

[Sage Ninja]

Raphael is such a gruff teddy bear and doesn't even know it--or he won't admit it ;) . He grumbles and snaps at his brothers, but under all that gruffy behavior he holds true affection for his brothers.

I think at this point in the story Leonardo and Raphael really have a strong bond, and I think the whole Leo getting injured in Tales of Leo was a changing point in their relationship.You notice that they are more in harmony with one another than they where before.

point in take: Raphael gets along with each of his brothers on a diffrent levels. Raph is multi faceted in that respect. All the turtles are.

[Warhorse]

But to be honest, I have never really seen a Raph and Don centered pairing in any of the incarnations. Have any of you? Are these two that seperated from eachother, in that there is neither a common ground, or sort of enviousness in either of them. I was just wondering.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

But to be honest, I have never really seen a Raph and Don centered pairing in any of the incarnations. Have any of you? Are these two that seperated from eachother, in that there is neither a common ground, or sort of enviousness in either of them. I was just wondering.

TMNT 2K3 season 3: H.A.T.E.

It was adapted from an issue of the Mirage Comic.

[Rooish]

In the new 'toon, Raph and Don have more of a relationship and mutual respect. In the old comics I think Raph and Don were the least close... less so even than Leo and Mike. I remember them getting in a fight and almost attacking each other in the issue that H.A.T.E. was adapted from... Raph wanted to fight the survivalists and Don called Raph "aggressively stupid." I think they were complete polar opposites in the comics and could hardly stand each other. In the new Mirage comics, Raph has mellowed, and Don has possibly become more assertive. And they seem to get along quite well now.

[Sage Ninja]

Raph and Don are an interesting pairing. I wonder how a fight between Raph and Don would turn out, if they did infact had come to blows in that issue of H.A.T.E

[Spawn Guy]

Who wins when brothers fight?


No one.

[Sage Ninja]

Who wins when brothers fight?


No one.

pfft! Don't get all after school special on me. The turtles are warriors and fighting is in their daily lives. We just talked about Leo and Raph fighting why not Don and Raph. Seriously Don had the guts to pretty much call Raph stupid and was willing to tangle with him so he obviously thinks he might have a chance against him. Does any one think Don might win in a fight against Raph? Or do you think Don would come out mangled if he got into a fight with Raphael?

[Rooish]

I think that Don would put up a damn good fight. They'd probably both be mangled.

[Spawn Guy]

pfft! Don't get all after school special on me. The turtles are warriors and fighting is in their daily lives. We just talked about Leo and Raph fighting why not Don and Raph. Seriously Don had the guts to pretty much call Raph stupid and was willing to tangle with him so he obviously thinks he might have a chance against him. Does any one think Don might win in a fight against Raph? Or do you think Don would come out mangled if he got into a fight with Raphael?

I think I should have indicated that I was joking.

[Sewer Bull]

I think I should have indicated that I was joking.

You forgot to put a smiley there. It's like a canned laughter in sitcoms. Some people wouldn't get a joke without it.

[Sage Ninja]

I know you where joking Spawn Guy, I was just being sarcastic. Its pretty hard to convey what you really mean when one can't hear the inflection in your voice when you are saying something. that is why I try to word my posts as neutral as possible to avoid being called rude.

I think that Don would put up a damn good fight. They'd probably both be mangled.

I think so too. I think Don could do alot of damage if he really wanted too. But most mediums prefere not to explore this side of Don to much. :ohwell:

[MadPirateBunny]

And here I was, all touched by Spawny's tender moment.

Pfft on all ya'll

[Spawn Guy]

I know you where joking Spawn Guy, I was just being sarcastic. Its pretty hard to convey what you really mean when one can't hear the inflection in your voice when you are saying something. that is why I try to word my posts as neutral as possible to avoid being called rude.

Your not allowed to be rude on the internet?

Oh hell, I've got some apoligies to email!

[Aignatius]

Raph and Don are an interesting pairing. I wonder how a fight between Raph and Don would turn out, if they did infact had come to blows in that issue of H.A.T.E

They're not too different in fighting capabilities, I'd say it depends on what kind of day each one has had, how badly Raph wants to trash Don, and how badly Don doesn't want to be trashed.
:evilgrin:

Did anyone ever catch the little animated short between 4Kids toons where Raph had apparently crashed one too many of Don's vehicles, so you see an enraged Don with a sledgehammer chasing a rather frightened looking Raph around the tunnels?

I wish I'd gotten that on tape... I was rolling... :lol:

[Warhorse]

^Now, I wish I had seen that.

But I did catch this little tidbit on youtube, where Donnie is helping Raph customize the speed capabilities on his bike. Everytime Don tweeked the bike, Raph would rev it up and tell him he wanted it to go faster.

After Don could get the bike to go as fast as it would go, Raph loses control and smashes into some crap, and literally sees stars. Too funny!

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

^Now, I wish I had seen that.

But I did catch this little tidbit on youtube, where Donnie is helping Raph customize the speed capabilities on his bike. Everytime Don tweeked the bike, Raph would rev it up and tell him he wanted it to go faster.

After Don could get the bike to go as fast as it would go, Raph loses control and smashes into some crap, and literally sees stars. Too funny!

You wouldn't happen to have the link for that vid, would you?

[Sage Ninja]

They're not too different in fighting capabilities, I'd say it depends on what kind of day each one has had, how badly Raph wants to trash Don, and how badly Don doesn't want to be trashed.
:evilgrin:

Did anyone ever catch the little animated short between 4Kids toons where Raph had apparently crashed one too many of Don's vehicles, so you see an enraged Don with a sledgehammer chasing a rather frightened looking Raph around the tunnels?

I wish I'd gotten that on tape... I was rolling... :lol:

oh God I have got to see that. Mild mannered Don all pissed off and homcidal is something that must be wonderful to see!

[Aignatius]

Ha, yeah, in the comics there's a couple of times where Raph pushes Don's buttons when Don's in a bad mood... was entertaining to see the role reversal there.
Gotta watch those quiet ones. :evilgrin:

I'd like to see thelink to that video too, of Raph and the bike. Thought utube tends to take the toon stuff down after a while. Oh well...

[Warhorse]

You wouldn't happen to have the link for that vid, would you?

Yes I do!:)

Here you go!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD55enq8QR0

Have fun watching it!:D

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

^Thank you! :D

[Sage Ninja]

Ha, yeah, in the comics there's a couple of times where Raph pushes Don's buttons when Don's in a bad mood... was entertaining to see the role reversal there.
Gotta watch those quiet ones. :evilgrin:

I'd like to see thelink to that video too, of Raph and the bike. Thought utube tends to take the toon stuff down after a while. Oh well...

are you talking about archie comics or Mirage comics? Mirage Donatello seems like he doesn't take any ones shiznit. In one issue there is a scene where a completely sh*t faced Casey starts mouthing off to Donatello (who is just sitting around minding his own business) and Donatello takes his bo staff out and hits Casey with it and nocks him into a stream.

I was rather impressed with this because Casey is supposed to be as crazy and brutal as Raphael but he got his butt handed to him by Donatello.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

are you talking about archie comics or Mirage comics? Mirage Donatello seems like he doesn't take any ones shiznit. In one issue there is a scene where a completely sh*t faced Casey starts mouthing off to Donatello (who is just sitting around minding his own business) and Donatello takes his bo staff out and hits Casey with it and nocks him into a stream.

I was rather impressed with this because Casey is supposed to be as crazy and brutal as Raphael but he got his butt handed to him by Donatello.

Shades of Gray, I have those issues. A drunk Casey approaches Don and he's mad becuase they don't spend much time together, Don says it's because they don't share the same intrest, Casey gets pissed, attacks Don, and Don totally pwns him.

[Rooish]

True, but Casey was drunk. And weren't they up in a tree? A littler guy would have an advantage up there.

[Sage Ninja]

True, but Casey was drunk. And weren't they up in a tree? A littler guy would have an advantage up there.

yeah, the fact that Casey was ripped out of his head probably gave Donny boy a distinct advantage. But still the just the fact that Don opted to smack Casey up side his head instead of just walking away and ignoring him (which is more of something I would expect from Don) is really cool. It gives him a sort of edge to his character that he can get pwn you if you push him far enough.

Shades of Gray, I have those issues. A drunk Casey approaches Don and he's mad becuase they don't spend much time together, Don says it's because they don't share the same intrest, Casey gets pissed, attacks Don, and Don totally pwns him.

How freakin' awsome would it have been if they had included this little spat between Don and Casey in the 2k3 series! I think it would have one hellava intence sequence had the show decided to animate this. Especially since there is some unconscience tension with the whole Don, April, and Casey thing.

[Rooish]

Oh man, you're right; that would have been awesome to see. The closest we got was in "Adventures in Turtle-Sitting"...

Casey: "That's my girlfriend, you can't have her!"

[Sage Ninja]

Oh man, you're right; that would have been awesome to see. The closest we got was in "Adventures in Turtle-Sitting"...

Casey: "That's my girlfriend, you can't have her!"


oh, how I mourn for the complex character nuances of the orginal 2k3 series! This was a great plot (and character) dynamic that was very well and subtly played up in the series. I just love the sublety in this show when it came to things like this. And I have a feeling that the series writters would have gotten around to playing with the whole April has more in common with Don than Casey angle had they not turned to FF, hack maybe they would have brought in Gabriel (I think that was her name) Casey's wife from the comics, into the mix to add a little tension.

[Aignatius]

Relying on memory here...
Don was sitting on a log over a stream, contemplating the fractals in the eddying water. A sort of Leo Da Vinci moment. ;)
Casey was in a rough frame of mind, because he had just killed a kid when he was out fighting street punks the night before. He overdid it. And so he was despondent, hit the bottle and was sick as a dog as a result. He was wandering around, saw Don, and started picking on him. Don basically told him to go sober up somewhere, but then Casey got himself a tree branch and started across the log with it. He was trying to get into a fight with Don, because Don was being dismissing, and Casey figured Don thought he was better than he was. So then Casey lunges for him, Don gets up on the log, and uses his bo to knock Casey off the log into the stream. Then Casey crawls out of the stream, and throws up... I wouldn't even call it a fight, it was more like Don defending himself against someone who was being the unreasonable drunk. All he did was take the wind out of his sails, in a manner of speaking. :)

[Sage Ninja]

self defence huh? Yeah that seems to be more of a Donatello thing to do. I felt pretty bad for Casey Jones in that issue, even when he acted a little curt with April when he was vomiting in the bathroom, and made her feel bad.

Wasn't nobody in this story arc as well?