TMNT movie novelizations

[Raph's Girl]

Ok folks...the movie is coming out in 2 months...and some of the stuff for it (the toys) are out already... On Jan 23rd 9 books (I've discovered that a couple of em are colouring books, which is cool still cuz I collect colouring books) will be out in stores. You can of course pre-order em now.

Im not sure if you can get em Amazon.com but Simon Says.com and Barnes & Noble (BN.com or barnesandnoble.com) has em. Now im sure Simon Says is a good company and all but their prices are a tad bit insane. $58 for all the books ($9 for S/H?! ).... Now Barnes & Noble don't have all the books (just 8 of em) but I ended ordering em for only $41 cuz they have this nice little policy of anything over $25 u don't have to pay the S/H price. HA! :evilgrin:

So now Im just awaiting for all these books (I also pre-ordered the Tales of Leonardo TPB but that's another thread entirely).

I love having birthday/christmas money to spend. :evilgrin:

Anyways...I am unsure if any of these are pre-quels (Mikey's Nightwatcher Scrapbook might be but I don't think Legend of Yaotl and Leonardo Returns are...the movie novelization itself definatly isn't ) but ah well...there will be prequels coming out in March anyways. :P

[Quiet_Guy]

When is the movie novelization coming out?

[Raph's Girl]

When is the movie novelization coming out?

Jan 23rd with the comic book adaption coming out in March/April.

[Cascadia]

Yes the total cost is quite expensive. I order mine through Barnes and Noble...the total cost came to slightly less than $28. I have a Barnes and Noble discount card. Everything that I buy is 10-20% off.

[Warhorse]

Are these novels, like the ones that were released for the first three movies, or comic books?

[Roseangelo]

There is one novel like the novelizations of the first three movies. The rest are other types of kiddie books: "spinners" (the square paperback books, like the Berenstein Bear books, that are shelved in spinning racks), learn-to-read chapter books, sticker books, etc.

I've got all of them on pre-order from Amazon, but I'm hesitant about actually opening the box when I get them. I don't want to get *too* spoiled for the movie, but stuff like the Nightwatcher Scrapbook and stickerbook probably wouldn't be too bad.

[Cascadia]

some are novels and some are simple reading books for younger kids. In March, there will be several comic books that pertain to the movie. Rosie, you took the words out of my mouth.

[Warhorse]

I was looking at Barnes and Noble. They had a book with a black cover and the words TMNT on it. Is that the novelization that is not kiddied down?

[Roseangelo]

No, that's the kiddie novelization; there is no "adult" book. :tcry:

The cover isn't finalized yet, which is why you see just the logo.

[Cascadia]

they will still be enjoyable, Rosie.

[Warhorse]

Damned kids. Why does everything have to be catered to them?

[Buslady]

Tell me about it -.- Why can't we have adult level novels with our turtle heros??
Stupid kiddie books don't go very deep into things. :(

[gobo]

Mature novelizations of PG films just don't happen.

[Warhorse]

Well, there's a first time for everything. And how many R rated books have been transformed into PG or PG-13 material for movies. Why not try the reverse for a change?

[gobo]

Oh. I thought you were meaning a book more detailed and etc. As in, not 'simplified' for the chil'ens (who are all morons in the eyes of most marketers). That's a concern I have.

[Roseangelo]

Mature novelizations of PG films just don't happen.

Ever heard of Star Wars? :P

All six movies (ok, Episode 3 wasn't PG, but still) have novels written on an adult level in addition to novel written on the kiddie level.

But it's also Star Wars.

I do still expect all of the books to be enjoyable.

[Raph's Girl]

Oh. I thought you were meaning a book more detailed and etc. As in, not 'simplified' for the chil'ens (who are all morons in the eyes of most marketers). That's a concern I have.

Well u gotta remember that this is TMNT. I have both the novelizations and comic book adaptions of the previous 3 movies so I'll no doubt do the same with this film. The comic book adaptions are usually for adults while the books (of which apperantly there are many) are always for kids....I haven't read any of the new books but the OS books were pretty good... like "Six Guns and Shurikens"

[mikey2007]

I haven't read any of the new books but the OS books were pretty good... like "Six Guns and Shurikens"

oh man, lol i just read that book again the other night, its pretty amazing:)

[Rooish]

Tell me about it -.- Why can't we have adult level novels with our turtle heros??
Stupid kiddie books don't go very deep into things. :(

I completely agree. If I had any rights, I'd write one.

[Time Mistress]

I agree too Rooish. But I think a chapter book junior novelization will be as advanced and deep as we'll get, kinda like they had for the first three movies, but one can always hope.

[Cascadia]

Hi everyone

I went to my local Barnes & Noble for a magazine or two. Anyways, I went over to the juniors' section of the store and there is a display of the TMNT books. I thought that the books were supposed to be released on January 23rd. I got 4 of them.

[Spitfire]

There's alot, espcially of the 2K3 ones. I almost wanted them just for the artwork.

[Roseangelo]

Sweet!

Which books did you get and how would you rate the "spoiler content" for each one?

[Cascadia]

I have the Legend of Yaotl--about the monsters, Mikey Nightwatcher scrapbook, movie sticker book--has some scenes from the movie, Leonardo Returns, and the novelization. Barnes & Noble also had the coloring book (Cowabunga) that I forgot to pick up. In terms of rating the spoiler, do not read the novel. I have a feeling that it is almost exactly like the movie. The cover for my copy of the novel is exactly the same as you see online.

I ordered Turtle Power, The Nightwatcher, and Turtles Together, which should be in this coming week.

[Quiet_Guy]

How's the Legend of Yaotl? Does give background info on the Generals? I don't mind spoilers:D . Also how much was the movie novelization? I didn't know it was out yet, I live in Oregon in myself.

[Cascadia]

I have a discount card from Barnes & Noble, so I got my copy for $5.39..the true price is $5.99. The Legend of Yaotl goes into lots of detail about the generals. I did not know that they would come out this week but apparently, the books that I received were released last night.

[Roseangelo]

I don't think the 23rd is a hard street date like how movie and music releases work. The store got them in stock, so they put them out.

[Cascadia]

true, Rosie, online book stores said Jan. 23rd. I have the majority of the books that were at the store except for Cowabunga. So who ever pre-ordered theirs, the books should be coming very soon.

[Raph's Girl]

Yeesh... I pre-ordered 8 out of 9 of the books a couple weeks ago. Knowing they're already out tho is good. It means I'll get em on time. Turtle's Together is the only one Barnes & Noble doesn't have available online to order so I'll just walk on over to the store to get it next week.

[Cascadia]

just find a display dedicated to the TMNT movie. I have read the novel but I will not give any spoilers....sorry. It would not be right to do so.

[johnnyblaze]

just read it and even for a kids version I must say :tthumbsu:

[TMNT]

I haven't yet picked up any of the TMNT books but will shortly. I was wondering, are we not at all allowed to post spoilers and/or potential spoilers? Just a thought as some may want to know and others, not so much. Hope the novelization is good.

EDIT: A question for those who have read it, does it look like it follows the film or does it appear to be different? Yes, I know you haven't seen the film but in general of what we know about the monsters and what not, is it pretty detailed in its plot is what I think I'm asking. I've also learned that are pictures in the book. Anything new or just what we've already seen? Thanks.

[johnnyblaze]

here are some spoilers from the book

that turtle in the above image kicking the foot soldier: It's not Leo. It's Raph.

the turtles fight using not only their ninja skills but good old fashioned street fighting moves.

also regarding the fighting. they talk briefly about the turtles individual fighting techniques. Raph is a bit vicious, Leo is very efficient, Mikey likes to fool around and mess with his opponents heads to throw them completly off and Donnie is the thinking man's ninja--using geometry to kick ass.

expect them to use items like shurikens and smoke bombs as well as their signature weapons

the turtles relationship are very much like teenage brothers: they tease each other, play around, trash talk,debate, argue/fight, but its nothing but love between them

Raph namedrops a couple of classic turtle villains.

expect a sly nod to the new cartoon in the form of a line from Casey

expect Splinter to whoop some ass

the turtles have no idea who Karai is

look for a classic line from Casey Jones (not related to the new cartoon)

expect a gentle nod to the Shredder's legacy

[TMNT]

Thanks Johnnyblaze, I like how you put each spoiler--not a lot of information given, real subtle. This has got me even more excited about the book. I'm going to pick it up right now.

[Roseangelo]

Oooh, those are very nice and subtle hints!

I'm probably just going to end up reading this darn book, aren't I? :dead:

[Quiet_Guy]

Can I get some spoilers on the Leo and Raph fight and the Generals and Winters fight? Anyone can PM if they want:D

[Cascadia]

I picked up two more books...Nightwatcher and Cowabunga. These are coloring/activity books. So, I am only lacking 2 books.

[Time Mistress]

Arrrgh! To get spoilers or not to get spoilers! That is the question. I'll probably buy the novel, but won't read it until after I see the movie. Why is everything coming out so early anyway?

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Arrrgh! To get spoilers or not to get spoilers! That is the question. I'll probably buy the novel, but won't read it until after I see the movie.

Yeah if you don't want to be spoiled even the slightest bit, I seriously suggest that you hold off on getting the book until... oh I dunno... March 24th. Honestly, don't tempt yourself by buying it any earlier than that. I picked it up yesterday. I decided not to read it, but I figured a tiny peak at the pictures wouldn't be so harmful.

I Was So Wrong.

One pic in particular...:o ...oh man, trust me don't get it just yet. The temptation to open it will be too great, and then once you do, it's like a Pandora's Box of Spoilers. :dead:

[Quiet_Guy]

What's the pic of?

[FearlessLeader]

I have to admit you have also made me curious, could you possibly spoiler tag it and tell us what the image is please??

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Oh okay then, since you asked so nicely (And I guess I should add that this spoiler is not even close to being as subtle as johnnyblaze's. You've been warned). :D :

Here's what I see: Leonardo is unconscious on the roof, his swords broken. He's surrounded by both the four Generals and five Foot Ninjas, who have some sort of gun/taser type weapons in their hands. The caption reads: "The Stone Generals agreed that Leonardo would suit their purpose." What purpose is that, you ask? I have no clue (yet), but it can't be good. So basically Leo's getting kidnapped by the Generals, who are working with the Foot (for reasons yet unknown to me).

Personally, I already had a feeling this was going to happen when those movie stills leaked a few weeks ago...

[Roseangelo]

Oh man... why can't it be March yet?

Yeah, I had kinda guessed that might happen, but still...

[Cascadia]

This is why I will not tell too many spoilers. I have read the novel though...I will not give the ending away. It was a shock to me though.

[johnnyblaze]

tell me about it. no one is as they seem

[Quiet_Guy]

tell me about it. no one is as they seem

Man that comment really really got me curious.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

tell me about it. no one is as they seem

Darnit johnnyblaze! Between you and Scientific freak,..... you're gonna make me read this novel, aren't ya? Between the pic and your posts... it appears that:

RESISTANCE. IS. FUTILE.

::sigh:: Well, I am resigned to my fate... :goes off to actually read the novel:

[Roseangelo]

Yeah, I've pretty much resigned myself to reading it, too.

I just don't actually have it yet.

[FearlessLeader]

Now I NEED to go buy this novel and I will read it... I am such a sucker for spoilers anyway.....:ohwell:

Either way even if I know what happens watching it unfold in moving pictures will still be beautiful.

[johnnyblaze]

it really should be a cool flick to watch. i'm looking forward to seeing the turtles let loose in these fights and their relationship with each other are very much teenage brothers who love each other, even though they do have trouble showing it sometimes. Their relationship with Splinter is kind of split. Its on one hand a ninja master trying to make sure his students are properly trained and on the other hand its a father looking at his sons and how he worries about their relationships as they get older and mature. sometimes the sides collide and confusion, jealousy, and hate are the result

[Cascadia]

The end is definitely not what I expected. if you are dying to know, you may PM.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

here are some spoilers from the book

that turtle in the above image kicking the foot soldier: It's not Leo. It's Raph.

the turtles fight using not only their ninja skills but good old fashioned street fighting moves.

also regarding the fighting. they talk briefly about the turtles individual fighting techniques. Raph is a bit vicious, Leo is very efficient, Mikey likes to fool around and mess with his opponents heads to throw them completly off and Donnie is the thinking man's ninja--using geometry to kick ass.

expect them to use items like shurikens and smoke bombs as well as their signature weapons

the turtles relationship are very much like teenage brothers: they tease each other, play around, trash talk,debate, argue/fight, but its nothing but love between them

Raph namedrops a couple of classic turtle villains.

expect a sly nod to the new cartoon in the form of a line from Casey

expect Splinter to whoop some ass

the turtles have no idea who Karai is

look for a classic line from Casey Jones (not related to the new cartoon)

expect a gentle nod to the Shredder's legacy





Don uses geometry huh. I can see it now...Don: "Take This! The sum of the square of the legs equal to the square of the hypothenus!

[johnnyblaze]

Don uses geometry huh. I can see it now...Don: "Take This! The sum of the square of the legs equal to the square of the hypothenus!

lol they describe it as him visualizing angles of attacks, creating mental diagrams of how a fight would unfold then him imagining his bo being 1 side of a triangle, with both legs being the other sides. he then continues to alter the shape of the triangle as he battles. it should be interesting to see in action

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

lol they describe it as him visualizing angles of attacks, creating mental diagrams of how a fight would unfold then him imagining his bo being 1 side of a triangle, with both legs being the other sides. he then continues to alter the shape of the triangle as he battles. it should be interesting to see in action

My brain aches now.

One thing though. you mention they use shuriken. But I thought Kevin said becasue this was a PG movie, they couldn't use shurikens. You think it;s only for the novel?

[Roseangelo]

My brain aches now.

One thing though. you mention they use shuriken. But I thought Kevin said becasue this was a PG movie, they couldn't use shurikens. You think it;s only for the novel?

Hmmm, I don't recall Kevin saying that. Two of the leaked pics clearly show shuriken and we even see shuriken thrown in the trailer.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Well, I read it. I'm officially spoiled rotten. But I loved every bit of it. And I STILL can't wait for March 23rd to get here.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Could you PM me and tell me how it ends?

EDIT: Nevermind

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Could you PM me and tell me how it ends?

EDIT: Nevermind

Oh dear, I've already sent you something! Disregard it if you don't want it!

EDIT: And to anyone else looking for a little spoiler, don't come looking for me. I'm already having a bit of guilt trip for saying as much as I have. Spoilers are like crack people-- JUST SAY NO! :D

[johnnyblaze]

My brain aches now.

One thing though. you mention they use shuriken. But I thought Kevin said becasue this was a PG movie, they couldn't use shurikens. You think it;s only for the novel?
could very well be. its based on his original script so it my be something they were asked to take out. but then again in the trailer we see Raphael with a shuriken like device stuck in his shell...

[Masked Ninja]

Well, this reaction is certainly encouraging. I indulged on the leaked pic "spoilers," but I draw the line at knowing the full plot. To hear that people are still excited about it after reading the novelization... this is a bit of a relief. :tpizza: Get here faster March 23, dangit!

[AquaParade]

GAH. I dont know what to do!:tsweatdr: :tsweatdr:

[mikey2007]

i'm staying away from buying the books, because i figure i already have seen too many spoilers from those pictures, as much as i want to know what's going to happen, i would rather see it as a movie first and then read all the books to see how closely they stuck to the movie and what not, so for now, i'm not even venturing near a book, lol

[TMNT]

Just a quick question pertaining to the images in the novelization: is the one that has already been discussed the only "spoiler" or are the other ones along those lines as well? Thanks.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

I believe so, yeah. I don't have the book in front me right now, but I don't recall any of the other pictures giving away a crucial plot point like that image did...

[mik8la]

So today I went to the Barnes & Noble store like I always do after school and I find out that they've already set up the TMNT display in the kids' section. Of course, this is bad news for me since I am going to try and avoid spoilers (the leaked pics notwithstanding--it was more of a scholastic CGI interest thing :D)--but damn, it was a chore trying not to wander into that section. And B&N is like my after-school hangout, so I guess I can look forward to two more months of that. :dead:

Gah, even the black highlighted text boxes on this thread mock me.

[Roseangelo]

So does anyone who has read the book regret reading it?

My box o' books was shipped from Amazon today and should be here by the weekend... I keep going back and forth on actually reading them. Arg...

[johnnyblaze]

nope--makes me want to see it even more.

[Cascadia]

I read them then put them away so that I can get back to normal life.

[Raph's Girl]

My box o' books was shipped from Amazon today and should be here by the weekend... I keep going back and forth on actually reading them. Arg...

Yea... mine was shipped today from B&N. I'll be getting em on Wednesday.

I think I'll read the novelization when I get it..Probably will only take a couple hours. :P

[Cascadia]

Yea... mine was shipped today from B&N. I'll be getting em on Wednesday.

I think I'll read the novelization when I get it..Probably will only take a couple hours. :P

It is a fast reader.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Yeah, it is. If you don't pause every two minutes to go "Oh my God!" or "Kick-ass!" or "Damn I can't wait to see this onscreen!" (like I did :D), you'll breeze right through it.

[sdp]

aaaaaaaahhhhhh so tempting to highlight the spoilers :lol: :lol: :lol:

anyways you guys should try to move the spoiler discussions here:
Spoiler Thread (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=17577&page=3)

mostly to keep spoiler tags in other threads to a minimum since they are very tempting for all.

[Roseangelo]

I've highlighted all of the spoilers in this thread and there's honestly nothing more telling than the 162 pictures we've already seen. So peeking won't be the end of you. :D

[TMNT]

Well, the deed is done: I just finished reading it. A quick and very interesting read. Sure, it tells you the movie but you don't really know the movie until you see all that in action. Anyway, I had a few questions and comments so here goes. If you can answer me, I'd be grateful.

First we'll start with general comments: I loved Casey's shout out to the first film. I didn't however catch the reference to the new toon. Maybe I read it all in too much excitement. I definitely love the family aspect of it. Also the fact that the story seems to be Leo/Raph oriented but Mikey and Don aren't in the backseat either. Was it me or was there no Cowabunga? Splinter is rocking as usual.
Now for the questions: Shredder's legacy--I didn't catch it. I think I did but I could be wrong. There's no flashback sequence in the book but I just wanted to confirm: is Karai's message towards the end the nod to Shredder's legacy? I can definitely see a sequel and pray that that's what happens.

Spoilers end there. Much thanks to all those who can answer the questions. And for those not really wanting to read spoilers, it's really not that bad. The pictures did most of the talking and now these are just words to go along with the said pictures.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

There's no flashback sequence in the book but I just wanted to confirm: is Karai's message towards the end the nod to Shredder's legacy? I can definitely see a sequel and pray that that's what happens.


Oh yeah, Karai's message is definitely hinting at what happened between Shredder & the turtles. And my goodness does it SCREAM sequel!

[TMNT]

Originally Posted by Kunoichi_Haruko Oh yeah, Karai's message is definitely hinting at what happened between Shredder & the turtles. And my goodness does it SCREAM sequel![/

Here's a comment on the above stated comment and a question as well:

Thanks. Yeah, that's what I thought too. Just hope in the movie it's done somewhat dramatically. I really hope the film does well as a sequel is DEFINITELY needed because we have not even seen what the Foot and Karai are capable of Also, what was Casey's reference to the new toon?

I just wanted to add (and this not a spoiler, we've heard this before) that the April-Casey relatioship is explored to its full extent in the movie (I'm saying this based upon what's written in the novelization). It's a real deep and mature look into it and I'm impressed and proud that it's being dealt with so nicely. It's hard to say that the movie is PG, as it really does push itself.

[Warhorse]

So, without giving me any spoilers, are the novels setting up a pretty wicked story line? And do the characters seem to be in tact?

[johnnyblaze]

Well, the deed is done: I just finished reading it. A quick and very interesting read. Sure, it tells you the movie but you don't really know the movie until you see all that in action. Anyway, I had a few questions and comments so here goes. If you can answer me, I'd be grateful.

First we'll start with general comments: I loved Casey's shout out to the first film. I didn't however catch the reference to the new toon. Maybe I read it all in too much excitement. I definitely love the family aspect of it. Also the fact that the story seems to be Leo/Raph oriented but Mikey and Don aren't in the backseat either. Was it me or was there no Cowabunga? Splinter is rocking as usual.
Now for the questions: Shredder's legacy--I didn't catch it. I think I did but I could be wrong. There's no flashback sequence in the book but I just wanted to confirm: is Karai's message towards the end the nod to Shredder's legacy? I can definitely see a sequel and pray that that's what happens.

Spoilers end there. Much thanks to all those who can answer the questions. And for those not really wanting to read spoilers, it's really not that bad. The pictures did most of the talking and now these are just words to go along with the said pictures.


I figured it was a sly nod. Kind of a blink and you miss it thing: when Casey said "Ah, what the shell" on page 70. Mabey i'm looking to much into it but that screamed the new cartoon IMO

and yes Karai's message of warning to the turtles at the end was what I was talking about

[johnnyblaze]

So, without giving me any spoilers, are the novels setting up a pretty wicked story line? And do the characters seem to be in tact?

definatly. Everyone is completly in character and. I know alot of people were afraid of what Mikey may be like but in the book he is not at all over the top. He cracks jokes but its not at a ridiculous level. He comes off as a little brother figure to the rest but not in an annoying way

[TMNT]

To add to what Johnnyblaze has said, Mikey not only cracks jokes but is also responsible (with the Cowabunga Carl thing) and lays the smackdown when he has to. I think this could be Mikey's best incarnation to date. Donny also is in top form this time around. No more Mikey's sidekick but very much a peace keeper between brothers. I wish I could say more, in terms of scenes but sadly, I can't. Not for TWO MONTHS! All I can say is that the turtles are how we'd want them to be.

[Time Mistress]

Okay guys, I broke down and read it.

As soon as I knew it was out in the store I had to go look for it. (No big TMNT display at the Borders btw? I had to find stuff on their individual shelves.) Ans once I found it I had to buy it. And once I bought it, I couldn't resist. I NEVER read novelizations before the movie, but I not disapointed I did.

No spoilers dudes, but IF the fight scenes and animation in this movie are any good, we're going to have a movie that is going to rock as much as the very first live action one does! This is so going to make up for Fast Forward.

Sigh, March can't get here soon enough.

[johnnyblaze]

Donny also is in top form this time around. No more Mikey's sidekick but very much a peace keeper between brothers.

Agreed, Don's very much his own person and is the voice of reason among the 4.

[Warhorse]

Thanks everyone for the input. I went to Borders today and bought my copy. The poster above is right, Borders literally had it hidden in the back.

I just hope this movie does great, because when I was going through Borders, I thought it would be cool if they had a TMNT calendar, and if the movie does great, you know how studios like to market the successes to death.

Well, I have yet to read the book, but I did flip through the pictures. The pic with April, made me think she is not that badly drawn at all. Gives promise to the humans.

[Raph's Girl]

Well I got the books in the mail today. Now here's my thoughts on all of em:

Mikey's Nightwatcher Scrapbook: Since this is shown in the movie Im wondering something. At one point he thinks Nightwatcher is Silver Sentry! There's 1 nod to the current animated series.

Legend of Yaotl: Whoa...I never expected Max Winters to be Yaotl himself! Also the creatures depicted in the movie are: Bigfoot, Yeti, Lupa the werewolf, Lethargo the sloth (get it? A sloth named Lethargo cuz he's slow aka lethargic... :lol: ), Jersey Devil, Succobor (vampire bat), Spittex (a Llama), Vixx the fox (ninjara?! ), Azoolti the Puma, Pict the Wild Boar (BeBop?! ), Arcadin the Coati Mundi (a evil racoon?! ), Weeb (a frog), and Cretaco (a crocadile). They are from a land known as Cthula (Lovecraft fans rejoyce eh?)

Leonardo Returns: from a year in the jungle

The Novelization: Current Toon reference #2: Even in the movie Splinter loves watching his "stories" :roll: At one point Leonardo refers to the Nightwatcher as Nightwing. Odd... Raph doesn't look like Dick Greyson... :lol: Current Toon and even Mirage comics reference #3 Raph mentions to Casey that they have encountered Utroms and Triceratons. Current Toon reference #4 Casey exlaims "What the Shell?!"

Now it seems to me that when the story starts April, Casey, and the turtles haven't seen each other in quite some time. Leo's been gone a year training and April works for Max "Yaotl" Winters gathering up artifacts he needs. April and Casey also live together. Mikey is of course a major fan of Nightwatcher but the others aren't too pleased with what Raph is doing.

All in all... it's a pretty good story. There's definatly plenty family dynamic in it and Splinter totally kicks butt. The ending definatly left room for a sequel. :o I hope they make action figures of all the monsters cuz I want a Vixx the Fox action figure darnit! It'll be the closest thing to a Ninjara action figure we'll ever get. :evilgrin:

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

To the people who read the novel, I gotta know, how many times do the TMNT and the foot clash. is it one big battle, or is it a series of battle throught the story?

[mikey2007]

ok, so when i was out of town today, i was killing time with my mom, and wandered into the Walden Books store, and low and behold they had all 9 books(like 5 or 6 copies of each), i know i didn't WANT to buy these cuz then i would be too darn tempted to read them, i scanned the pictures real fast and broke down and ended up buying, Leo Returns, The Legend of Yaotl, and the Movie Novelization, and as i was riding home i broke down again and read the first two, i'm gonna have to hide the novel before i start readin that too! AHH! why the heck can't march come sooner?! after reading those 2 books, it was already a good spoiler, especially the Yaotl one, the pictures in the novelization weren't too bad i guess, but i didn't want to analyze them too much or i really would read the dang story, it was pretty crazy day

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

To the people who read the novel, I gotta know, how many times do the TMNT and the foot clash. is it one big battle, or is it a series of battle throught the story?

Well I'd say it's more a big battle than a series of battles, although they do bump into each other at least once before that big battle. The book only really mentions two instances of a clash (when monsters start showing up, and toward the end), but seeing as how Karai and The Foot are so important, perhaps they'll clash more than that in the actual film. But if they only manage to deal with each other twice, then I imagine they are going to be relatively big battles....

[johnnyblaze]

hey for those who have read the book (and those who want spoilers)

Splinter's opening lines of dialogue are in it

http://iesb.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1736&Itemid=99

[Warhorse]

Hey, this is a question about one of the photos in the novel. On the third page of the photos, the top, with April and Casey. What in the world is Casey doing in the back ground? I cant for the life of me, figure out what he is screwing around with.

[TMNT]

Not really a spoiler, but I won't risk it.

April is at a meeting with Max Winters. It is here he tells her the legend of Yaotl. Casey finds the story boring and falls asleep. April scolds him for doing so. He, in the spur of the argument, breaks a vase. So I'm guessing he's putting it back. That's why he's hunched over like that, fixing the stand.

I can't wait for the movie to come out so I can openly discuss it without these spoiler tags.

[Roseangelo]

I've read it! Yay!!

And I'm veryvery happy with it.

I especially like that Winters's motivation actually wasn't world domination, as many of the synopsises have said. World domination is just such a weak and overused motivation for bad guys.

The Raph/Leo fight was slightly different than I had figured - So Leo didn't know Raph was the Nightwatcher! It should be awesome on screen.

The book is obviously a general telling of the plot, as there are things in the leaked photos and trailer that aren't even described. I am soooo looking forward to seeing the final product!!!

[johnnyblaze]

www.mtv.com put up their set visit info and they have a better description of some scenes from the film and they said the Leo vs Raph fight is like John Woo and Kill Bill mixed together. Leo and Raph are'nt holding anything back according to what they say based on the clip. its going to be freaking crazy

[Raph's Girl]

Splinter's opening lines of dialogue are in it

http://iesb.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1736&Itemid=99

Ah then the movie definatly ends with Raphael's quote/dialogue about family. Which is totally cool cuz I just LOVE it. Reminds me of my family. :evilgrin:

"So what makes a family? Personally, it's more than sharing a roof or a bathroom. it's sharing life. LIFE. My father taught me that, and I think it's pretty much true. Pretty much, providing you don't kill each other in the process. Hey, nobody said it was easy, right?"

[Aignatius]

Picked the book up at Borders this morning. Had to ask for help finding it, turned out to be in the kids section, on the independent readers shelf.

No spoilers from me, here. Wanted to say the book is really quite nicely written in its simplicity, it doesn't insult the intelligence of the reader. And a lot of what it's referring to is accurate enough for me, anyway.
It's really quite funny, and yeah, it described some great moments. It also made sense out of all the pics we've been looking at.
If you don't want to know the ending, then skip the last two chapters or so.
Have to say, I'm glad I read it, and it makes me want to see the movie all the more. This is going to be good. :D

[Warhorse]

I do have the book. But I'm being pretty good at resisting myself from reading it.

But anyways. To those who have read the book, does it go into detail what each Turtle is thinking and feeling, or just what they are doing?

[Quiet_Guy]

My book should be here soon thanks to Scientific Freak, but from I've read from your comments I really like the emphasis on family.

[mik8la]

Okay, so I am weak. A friend bought the novelization for me, and I read it. And it's a surprisingly good story--it's definitely not just the run-of-the-mill "Scooby-Doo" monster story. But...I also felt a little deflated by some of the elements. Maybe it'll seem better on screen or whatever, but for some reason I think I'll be looking forward to the sequel--should they make one--more than this movie.

For one thing, the under-use of the Foot. I was really looking forward for them to pay a bigger role than they did in this story, particularly Karai. But that's okay, I guess, if they're the main baddie for the sequel. And the second thing: it felt like a total Raph-fest. I mean, I don't mind Raph, but didn't they resolve his anger issues in the first movie already? I hope the next movie revolves around Don or Mikey's issues, because I know they're just as complicated as Raph (one of Mikey's lines demonstrates this admirably). Leo got shafted yet again--granted, he had a bigger role this time around, but sometimes it felt like he was just there to play Raph's foil. I mean, the guy went away for a year to do nothing but train, and he apparently didn't learn a single new damn thing, at least not enough to take Raph by surprise. And sometimes it felt like he was channeling those robotic, one-dimensional, goody-goody vibes again. Sigh. Well, sorry for sounding totally pessimistic; maybe I'll just tell myself it'll come off better on screen or something. I dunno. :ohwell:

[johnnyblaze]

I kind of liked that Splinter really seemed to be on Leo's case when he came back to the point where Leo blamed Raph for his difficulty keeping the boys together. I liked that Splinter wants more from Leo not just as a ninja but as the oldest brother of the 3

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Okay, so I am weak. A friend bought the novelization for me, and I read it. And it's a surprisingly good story--it's definitely not just the run-of-the-mill "Scooby-Doo" monster story. But...I also felt a little deflated by some of the elements. Maybe it'll seem better on screen or whatever, but for some reason I think I'll be looking forward to the sequel--should they make one--more than this movie.

For one thing, the under-use of the Foot. I was really looking forward for them to pay a bigger role than they did in this story, particularly Karai. But that's okay, I guess, if they're the main baddie for the sequel. And the second thing: it felt like a total Raph-fest. I mean, I don't mind Raph, but didn't they resolve his anger issues in the first movie already? I hope the next movie revolves around Don or Mikey's issues, because I know they're just as complicated as Raph (one of Mikey's lines demonstrates this admirably). Leo got shafted yet again--granted, he had a bigger role this time around, but sometimes it felt like he was just there to play Raph's foil. I mean, the guy went away for a year to do nothing but train, and he apparently didn't learn a single new damn thing, at least not enough to take Raph by surprise. And sometimes it felt like he was channeling those robotic, one-dimensional, goody-goody vibes again. Sigh. Well, sorry for sounding totally pessimistic; maybe I'll just tell myself it'll come off better on screen or something. I dunno. :ohwell:

I'm actually glad you said that it's very Raph cnetric. Thats kinda good news to me, I mean, in the new toon Raph is really potraid as Leo's foil, so it's kinda poetic justice that Leo play Raph's for once. Bu yeah, hopefully if there is a sequal, I would really like to see Don and Mikey get the big roles. Though the real challenge would be trying to make it so it isn't just a 81 minute episode of the new toon.

[mik8la]

Splinter really seemed to be on Leo's case when he came back to the point where Leo blamed Raph for his difficulty keeping the boys together. I liked that Splinter wants more from Leo not just as a ninja but as the oldest brother of the 3


That was a great part. That fact should have justified Leo coming off as less one-dimensional than he was portrayed.

I'm actually glad you said that it's very Raph cnetric. Thats kinda good news to me, I mean, in the new toon Raph is really potraid as Leo's foil, so it's kinda poetic justice that Leo play Raph's for once. Bu yeah, hopefully if there is a sequal, I would really like to see Don and Mikey get the big roles. Though the real challenge would be trying to make it so it isn't just a 81 minute episode of the new toon.

I thought Karai was Leo's foil in the new 'toon. But my point was, I was kind of hoping Leo would be handled better in this movie, or at least not relegated to a plot device, because he already got screwed in the first three films. And I thought the anger issue had been addressed in the first movie, which was also Raph-centric. Why do we need to rehash it yet again? Then again, the book might come off as Raph-centric because the story had to be written mostly from his point of view.

[gobo]

Raph's anger issues have certainly been addressed. But, in what world has addressing an issue been all there is to resolving it? He can't just go get an Anger Management session. Some people (maybe 'all' or even 'most') who have deep-seated anger issues like Raph will always have them. The only thing they can do is learn to take control of it rather than letting it control them.

Now, as for Leo, was there ever an incarnation in which he wasn't a flat character? If there was, I've forgotten all about it. He's always been portrayed as concerned with doing the right thing rather than just wanting to but deciding to do something else TTBOMK. Being that he is the most responsible of the Turtles, he is only pushed into that mold even more by the expectation he imagines is placed upon him. That's about as straightforward a character analysis as you can get for him.

Anyhow, that's my take on both ends of the spectrum: those who think it's not as exciting as it should be, and those who think it's not as realistic as it should be. While we're all entitled to our opinions, and nobody has been outright flaming the book, I just felt the urge to comment. Good night. ^_^

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

That was a great part. That fact should have justified Leo coming off as less one-dimensional than he was portrayed.



I thought Karai was Leo's foil in the new 'toon. But my point was, I was kind of hoping Leo would be handled better in this movie, or at least not relegated to a plot device, because he already got screwed in the first three films. And I thought the anger issue had been addressed in the first movie, which was also Raph-centric. Why do we need to rehash it yet again? Then again, the book might come off as Raph-centric because the story had to be written mostly from his point of view.

Well think, his anger wasn't resolved. he just got beat up and was left to the sidelines for the rest of the movie. There was no resolution. Plus the first movie didn't really do much to showcase that aspect of Raph. They touched on it, but moved on. I'll have to see what your talking about with Leo though when I pick up the book.

[mik8la]

I certainly am not saying that the anger issues should have been resolved easily, but it's already been used as a plot device in the movie franchise. It just feels a bit repetitive going back to that all over again when there's Mikey feeling like they're all meant for a bit more, or Don needing to be both the mechanic and the peacemaker of the family (and both aren't given any medallions. Maybe in the next film?). *shrug*

Gobo: I have to get defensive over your analysis. That's a very one-dimensional summary of Leo's character, and should not be applied to any of the turtles. The great thing about them is the fact that they're far more than their stereotypes, and if one of their incarnations comes off as "flat" in one of their mediums, then it's the medium's fault, not the character's. As for being "flat", I admit I wasn't that big a fan of Leo's until the new series (and even in the original comics he had his moments of darkness and pessimism). His responsibilities aren't "imagined"; if he had been a little less competent than he's allowed to be, he and his brothers would be dead a thousand times over. His job can be a very ungrateful thing--there are a million things he can't ever be allowed to do, or a lot of ways he can't be allowed to act because of it--but he does it because someone has to. He's a teenager, and he's being charged with protecting the lives of his siblings (and, by extension, the lives of the citizens of New York City). Do you really think this knowledge doesn't affect him in some way, or that this is impossible to be adequately translated to any sort of medium? Why does being responsible and hardworking and decent have to equate to being "flat"? Am I supposed to believe that those characteristics automatically negate any kind of character depth? I'm sorry, but I just cannot agree with your analysis.

[FearlessLeader]

Now, as for Leo, was there ever an incarnation in which he wasn't a flat character? If there was, I've forgotten all about it. He's always been portrayed as concerned with doing the right thing rather than just wanting to but deciding to do something else TTBOMK. Being that he is the most responsible of the Turtles, he is only pushed into that mold even more by the expectation he imagines is placed upon him. That's about as straightforward a character analysis as you can get for him.


I want to make this clear for myself before I type out a long winded reply... are you seriously saying that Leo has always been a "flat" character? That you see no dimension to him?

Because I hope I am misunderstanding what you wrote above wrong, as none of the Turtles characters are flat or one dimensional.

Please clarify to that I can best frame my reply to you.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the plot device of the first film, the Turtles' first encountering the Foot and Splinter being kidnapped? Raph's anger was never a vocal point, it just showed him being a hothead. I know that Mikey and Don deserve some limelight, but so does Raph in a way. Ever since the new toon we haven't seen that many good Raph moments. He's just been the number 2 guy. .

Though I will agree with you in saying that Leo is definatley not a flat character. In the old series he was flat, not now

[mik8la]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the plot device of the first film, the Turtles' first encountering the Foot and Splinter being kidnapped? Raph's anger was never a vocal point, it just showed him being a hothead. I know that Mikey and Don deserve some limelight, but so does Raph in a way. Ever since the new toon we haven't seen that many good Raph moments. He's just been the number 2 guy. .

Though I will agree with you in saying that Leo is definatley not a flat character. In the old series he was flat, not now

Agreed. Then again, the old series was a bit simplistic when it came to character development.

And I agree about Raph deserving some limelight in the new 'toon. I think he had the least episodes dedicated to him, and he definitely needed more solo time. But I was also hoping that Leo's movie incarnation--which is, really, his least-fleshed out version outside of the old 'toon--would be improved on a bit and not just used as a plot device. Oh, well, I can always look forward to that maybe in the sequel.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Agreed. Then again, the old series was a bit simplistic when it came to character development.

And I agree about Raph deserving some limelight in the new 'toon. I think he had the least episodes dedicated to him, and he definitely needed more solo time. But I was also hoping that Leo's movie incarnation--which is, really, his least-fleshed out version outside of the old 'toon--would be improved on a bit and not just used as a plot device. Oh, well, I can always look forward to that maybe in the sequel.


What I would like to see, which has barley ever been done, is see all 4 of them in the spotlight, rather than just one. I think if they are planning to bring Shredder back, they can use it as a way of having the Turtles face their own inner demons.

[mik8la]

What I would like to see, which has barley ever been done, is see all 4 of them in the spotlight, rather than just one. I think if they are planning to bring Shredder back, they can use it as a way of having the Turtles face their own inner demons.

I really, really like that idea. :) I mean, really, really.

[Warhorse]

I'm actually glad you said that it's very Raph cnetric. Thats kinda good news to me, I mean, in the new toon Raph is really potraid as Leo's foil, so it's kinda poetic justice that Leo play Raph's for once. Bu yeah, hopefully if there is a sequal, I would really like to see Don and Mikey get the big roles. Though the real challenge would be trying to make it so it isn't just a 81 minute episode of the new toon.


Hahah, I agree with you here.

But anyways. I gave in and read the book. Did it in 45 minutes. Honestly, the story telling itself is very poor, and I thought the characters, or some of them, seemed out of character, for me. I just hope that this author was jsut going by simple plots, and not really knowing the Turtles, or other characters. But I just thought the other movie novels were better executed, by a mile!

Spoiler, big one.

Fans who love Leonardo but resent Raphael, are really going to disown this movie if it plays out like the book. I really hope the movie is better, because overall, the book sucked. But I still think it's just because the author has no clue in how to tell a story. I bet if you give this outline to someone who writes fan fiction, and the fan fiction author can spin a more interesting story.

Also, I found Splinter, Leo and April to be out of character. Especially Splinter's handling of his favortism, and Leo being a bit annoying at times, so annoying, I couldn't help but to really be cheering on Raph the whole time.

I also thought that the part where Raph bullies Don seemed a bit weird. I always thought Don and Raph had a mutual respect for one another.

[mik8la]

But anyways. I gave in and read the book. Did it in 45 minutes. Honestly, the story telling itself is very poor, and I thought the characters, or some of them, seemed out of character, for me. I just hope that this author was jsut going by simple plots, and not really knowing the Turtles, or other characters. But I just thought the other movie novels were better executed, by a mile!

I hope you're right that about the clunkiness being confined just to the book. Ever since I read it, my enthusiasm for the movie's been dampened significantly.

Fans who love Leonardo but resent Raphael, are really going to disown this movie if it plays out like the book. I really hope the movie is better, because overall, the book sucked. But I still think it's just because the author has no clue in how to tell a story. I bet if you give this outline to someone who writes fan fiction, and the fan fiction author can spin a more interesting story.

Also, I found Splinter, Leo and April to be out of character. Especially Splinter's handling of his favortism, and Leo being a bit annoying at times, so annoying, I couldn't help but to really be cheering on Raph the whole time.

That's my exact problem with it. I'm all for good plots and character development, but not at the expense of certain characters. Splinter's parenting skills come off as questionable--did he not adequately explain why he sent Leo out into the world and then basically kept the others on house arrest? For that matter, it's not even clear why Leo took a year off--if it was to brush up his skills, then he failed spectacularly. When he comes back, he doesn't have that much that's new and his abilities are no better than his brothers'. I don't see why he deserved being given a medallion when all he did was get beaten up and kidnapped. Not that I mind Leo being less than perfect, but his role just screams Plot Device (TM), and it frustrates me greatly. I really would have wanted to see more of Splinter's point of view (perhaps while interacting more with his two other sons), and Leo's. The two of them suffered the most, personality-wise, being told from Raph's perspective.

April I didn't mind so much--I liked the way her relationship with Casey was handled. Very realistic and interesting. But I didn't buy so much her being all ninja-warriorfied all of a sudden.

[Warhorse]

I hope you're right that about the clunkiness being confined just to the book. Ever since I read it, my enthusiasm for the movie's been dampened significantly.



That's my exact problem with it. I'm all for good plots and character development, but not at the expense of certain characters. Splinter's parenting skills come off as questionable--did he not adequately explain why he sent Leo out into the world and then basically kept the others on house arrest? For that matter, it's not even clear why Leo took a year off--if it was to brush up his skills, then he failed spectacularly. When he comes back, he doesn't have that much that's new and his abilities are no better than his brothers'. I don't see why he deserved being given a medallion when all he did was get beaten up and kidnapped. Not that I mind Leo being less than perfect, but his role just screams Plot Device (TM), and it frustrates me greatly. I really would have wanted to see more of Splinter's point of view (perhaps while interacting more with his two other sons), and Leo's. The two of them suffered the most, personality-wise, being told from Raph's perspective.

April I didn't mind so much--I liked the way her relationship with Casey was handled. Very realistic and interesting. But I didn't buy so much her being all ninja-warriorfied all of a sudden.


There were so many instances that turned me off in this book. Now, I am a Raph fan, and loved the way the fight ended, but in the real "Turtle" world, he wouldn't have had it that easy, even with his leather armour. I know the potential is there for Raph to probably be the best fighter of them all, from his shear strength and passion, but I don't think he's no where near that point, and I think he may always be struggling for that ultimate fighter.

I did find it funny when Leo asked Don how he knew the Max Winters owned that device, and Don smartly answered back "Hello, genious here!" I loved that, but I just found Leo's whole attitude kind of, well, stuck up. And Splinter didn't help the situation. I really, really hope it's just the author is bad at telling stories, and that the movie incarnation of Leo comes accross not so arrogant or conceded.

Also, I just didn't like how April was kind of cruel to Casey in the beginning. I know they squabble and insult eachother in the movie, but for her to be too proud to tell Max that Casey was her boyfriend or something. I don't know.

[mik8la]

There were so many instances that turned me off in this book. Now, I am a Raph fan, and loved the way the fight ended, but in the real "Turtle" world, he wouldn't have had it that easy, even with his leather armour. I know the potential is there for Raph to probably be the best fighter of them all, from his shear strength and passion, but I don't think he's no where near that point, and I think he may always be struggling for that ultimate fighter.

I did find it funny when Leo asked Don how he knew the Max Winters owned that device, and Don smartly answered back "Hello, genious here!" I loved that, but I just found Leo's whole attitude kind of, well, stuck up. And Splinter didn't help the situation. I really, really hope it's just the author is bad at telling stories, and that the movie incarnation of Leo comes accross not so arrogant or conceded.

Also, I just didn't like how April was kind of cruel to Casey in the beginning. I know they squabble and insult eachother in the movie, but for her to be too proud to tell Max that Casey was her boyfriend or something. I don't know.

I can kind of understand where April's coming from here--I remember April's VA commenting about not understanding what she saw in Casey, and though I'm a Casey fan, I can see why April might be a bit reluctant to admit it--but it was a little odd. I'm glad they came to a resolution at the end at any rate.

I honestly wouldn't have cared that Raph nearly kills Leo--it's obvious he and Leo a lot more evenly matched in the movieverse--but this renders Leo's year of training--alone by himself, away from his family--a complete waste of time. And Leo did come off as incredibly arrogant in places, like a total "leader" caricature. How are we supposed to root for a team being led by someone so completely unrelatable? I swear, if I hadn't read the original comics and watched the new 'toon, I wouldn't get what people saw in him, or why he's the leader. The potential is there...it's just up to the movie franchise to plumb it. If it ever does. For all of Don's and Mikey's being pushed to the background, at least they weren't screwed over like Leo, which I'm just glad for.

[Warhorse]

I honestly wouldn't have cared that Raph nearly kills Leo--it's obvious he and Leo a lot more evenly matched in the movieverse--but this renders Leo's year of training--alone by himself, away from his family--a complete waste of time. And Leo did come off as incredibly arrogant in places, like a total "leader" caricature. How are we supposed to root for a team being led by someone so completely unrelatable? I swear, if I hadn't read the original comics and watched the new 'toon, I wouldn't get what people saw in him, or why he's the leader. The potential is there...it's just up to the movie franchise to plumb it. If it ever does. For all of Don's and Mikey's being pushed to the background, at least they weren't screwed over like Leo, which I'm just glad for.


Now that you mentioned, is this like the second time Raph has nearly killed one of his brothers? First was Mikey in Meet Casey Jones in the 2k3 toon. Now Leo. He also was kind of mean to Donnie in the beginning, making the poor guy jump like that. Wonder how that will play out in the movie.

What do you think of Raph getting the dart in his shell? I always thought turtle shells were, like bone or something. So can they be poisoned through their shell? Also, Leo get's the dagger thing in his arm, think they'll show blood in the movie, because that is a big dagger.

Also, what was Leo thinking when he was throwing the stars? Aren't those a hell of a lot more lethal then what the NightWatcher was doing to the perps. NW, the worst he did was smash punks skulls into garbage cans while dragging them behind on his bike!:D

[mik8la]

Now that you mentioned, is this like the second time Raph has nearly killed one of his brothers? First was Mikey in Meet Casey Jones in the 2k3 toon. Now Leo. He also was kind of mean to Donnie in the beginning, making the poor guy jump like that. Wonder how that will play out in the movie.

Raph nearly killed Mikey early on in the original comics, if I remember right. Good Lord, he really is a piece of work. :) I didn't mind his bullying of Donnie--it didn't come off as overly mean, and it was very Raph-ish.

As for the throwing stars, maybe it was because he thought he was hunting Nightwatcher, who's just some guy clad in protective armor. As for the blood? I don't know. But I honestly can't bring myself to care much anymore. It's just exhausting trying to figure out what's going on with movie-Leo. :sick:

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

I hope the people in charge haven't shot themselves in the foot for putting the books out so early. Judging by these last few posts...eh, maybe they did. :ohwell: Also, Warhorse, in response to the whole author thing, I'd just like to point out that the novelization was adapted by Steve Murphy. So..err...yeah. :D

[Raph's Girl]

I'd just like to say that sometimes books are way better than the movies. Sometimes movies don't translate well in books and sometimes books don't translate well in movies.

I for one liked the book and didn't think it was majorly Raph centric. *shrugs*

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

I'd just like to say that sometimes books are way better than the movies. Sometimes movies don't translate well in books* and sometimes books don't translate well in movies. *bolded for emphasis by K_H

I for one liked the book and didn't think it was majorly Raph centric. *shrugs*

Well that's exactly my point. By releasing the novel so soon, I feel that they are doing a bit of a disservice to the actual movie (because the movie probably doesn't translate well as a novel, or at least, not in this case). Granted, none of us have actually seen the movie yet (and so the points I make may be completely invalid come opening day), but if this is the best novelization they can make from the movie, and it's a bit of a turnoff to some of the most diehard fans, what happens to the casual fan?

I dunno, maybe we also have to take into account the audience it was intended for. I mean c'mon, it was located the children's section, wasn't it? Perhaps, had it been a little more in depth and geared to an older crowd, fans wouldn't find characters with too many OOC moments, or one character's personal drama told more than another's, ya know?

Anywho, I'll shut up now....

[johnnyblaze]

Raph nearly killed Mikey early on in the original comics, if I remember right. Good Lord, he really is a piece of work. :) I didn't mind his bullying of Donnie--it didn't come off as overly mean, and it was very Raph-ish.


I thought that worked as well. What else would Raph do as a last resort but bully someone. It felt like something a jock would do if he was on the losing side of something which just felt right with this version of Raph. It actually reminded me of moments in TMNT 1 where Raph hits Don (in the beggining) and throws a sai at him.

I thought the throwing star thing was Leo sending a warning shot--It was'nt meant to hit him, just get his attention.

[Warhorse]

I actually thought Raph making Donnie jump was kind of funny, it's just after watching the 2k3 toon for so long, and seeing Don and Raph always got a long, it seemed like a shock.

As for the throwing stars. Uh, Raph had to use quick action to dodge the stars, if you remember the book, not to mention what if some innocent person happen to walk right into the path of one of those flying stars. Leo was going after the Nightwatcher because he thought it wasn't the Nightwatchers job to become the city's secret protector. But how was throwing stars to slow him up make Leo any better than the Nightwatcher?

Now, it would have been cool to see Leo use those flying stars in an actual battle with the foot or the monsters, when his life was in jepordy, but the Nightwatcher was doing nothing to Leo to atagonize an attack. It's just something I hope is played better on the big screen. We all have our opinions!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I actually thought Raph making Donnie jump was kind of funny, it's just after watching the 2k3 toon for so long, and seeing Don and Raph always got a long, it seemed like a shock.

As for the throwing stars. Uh, Raph had to use quick action to dodge the stars, if you remember the book, not to mention what if some innocent person happen to walk right into the path of one of those flying stars. Leo was going after the Nightwatcher because he thought it wasn't the Nightwatchers job to become the city's secret protector. But how was throwing stars to slow him up make Leo any better than the Nightwatcher?

Now, it would have been cool to see Leo use those flying stars in an actual battle with the foot or the monsters, when his life was in jepordy, but the Nightwatcher was doing nothing to Leo to atagonize an attack. It's just something I hope is played better on the big screen. We all have our opinions!

By the sound of this, it was probably a warning shot. Sometimes people do thatto get the opponets attention, like on Naruto. Besides, Leo would never try to kill anyone intentionally, unless his life was in danger. And looking at the trailer, it looks like he wasn't trying to hit the Nightwatcher.

[johnnyblaze]

As for the throwing stars. Uh, Raph had to use quick action to dodge the stars, if you remember the book, not to mention what if some innocent person happen to walk right into the path of one of those flying stars. Leo was going after the Nightwatcher because he thought it wasn't the Nightwatchers job to become the city's secret protector. But how was throwing stars to slow him up make Leo any better than the Nightwatcher?

Now, it would have been cool to see Leo use those flying stars in an actual battle with the foot or the monsters, when his life was in jepordy, but the Nightwatcher was doing nothing to Leo to atagonize an attack. It's just something I hope is played better on the big screen. We all have our opinions!
Well Leo seeing the diner chef freaking out and yelling at the Nightwatcher not to hurt him and to take the money and leave might have sparked Leo to confront him like that. And even then when Leo caught up with him he tried to spark a peaceful conversation before wailing on him.

plus let's not forget that we know Leo is not a killer and he is highly skilled. the first star hit an inch from his hand-which was definatly a warning shot. the other stars compeltly missed the Nightwatcher so either Raph ducked them (which i'd like to add the book did'nt say he did) or Leo threw then as more warning shots, with no intention of them hitting him.

[Warhorse]

Well Leo seeing the diner chef freaking out and yelling at the Nightwatcher not to hurt him and to take the money and leave might have sparked Leo to confront him like that. And even then when Leo caught up with him he tried to spark a peaceful conversation before wailing on him.

plus let's not forget that we know Leo is not a killer and he is highly skilled. the first star hit an inch from his hand-which was definatly a warning shot. the other stars compeltly missed the Nightwatcher so either Raph ducked them (which i'd like to add the book did'nt say he did) or Leo threw then as more warning shots, with no intention of them hitting him.

What book were you reading. It clearly states that Raphael had to out maneuver the throwing stars to avoid being struck by them.
And again, there is the possibility of a passerby stepping into the path of the stars. You don't shoot a gun or throw stars in public places without a really good reason for it. Raphael is clearly shown giving the cash register to the diner owner, not taking any money from it what so ever, so Leo clearly over reacted! And that is something I found to be out of character for him. He's not wrote in the best light in this book. In my opinion.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

What book were you reading. It clearly states that Raphael had to out maneuver the throwing stars to avoid being struck by them.
And again, there is the possibility of a passerby stepping into the path of the stars. You don't shoot a gun or throw stars in public places without a really good reason for it. Raphael is clearly shown giving the cash register to the diner owner, not taking any money from it what so ever, so Leo clearly over reacted! And that is something I found to be out of character for him. He's not wrote in the best light in this book. In my opinion.

Leo has a good range of vision, he never would blindly throw a star like that. I doubt pedestrians would be a problem.

And like johnny said, Leo was just acting quickly, because from his point of veiw it looked like Nightwatcher was mugging his. What I find a little out of character for Leo is, how could he not recognize Nightwatcher being Raph. The size and build alone should have convinced him it was one of his bros. And the agressivness should have told him it was Raph.

Well overall, how would you rate the book. Would you say it was all bad, or does it have an equal balance of pros and cons. And will it affect your veiws on the movie?

[Warhorse]

But why would Leo think the Nightwatcher was mugging anyone when there is no report of the Nightwatcher hurting anyone innocent? He's only known as a vigilante, no different from Bat Man. And I still think Leo over reacted. Why was he so concerned about the Night Watcher when he just came back anyways?

Also, TMTWBR is right that Leo should have started to recognize Raphael's way of fighting as Raph was anticipating Leo's every move. Leo was very out of character in this book, and I just hope the movie comes across better. I liked the beginning with Leo, in his helping out the vilagers, but he seemed kind of arrogant when he met back with his family. But I don't get that feeling from looking at the pics or trailer, so I just think the book struck an odd chord with me.

[johnnyblaze]

What book were you reading. It clearly states that Raphael had to out maneuver the throwing stars to avoid being struck by them.
And again, there is the possibility of a passerby stepping into the path of the stars. You don't shoot a gun or throw stars in public places without a really good reason for it. Raphael is clearly shown giving the cash register to the diner owner, not taking any money from it what so ever, so Leo clearly over reacted! And that is something I found to be out of character for him. He's not wrote in the best light in this book. In my opinion.
where did it say that? page 86 says:


Leonardo somersaulted onto the street and ran after the Nightwatcher. The chase took the two down sidewalks and back alleys. Leonardo hurled an assortment of throwing stars at the Nightwatcher, and they all missed their target.


It said nothing about Raph having to duck and dodge. Only that he was being chased and non of the stars connected.

and you have to remember in the front of the store the only thing going on was the cook freaking out, The Nightwatcher holding the register and the cook yelling "Take it!Just take it! Just don't hurt me, please!" (pg.85). Raph put the register down and Leo sent the throwing star to get his attention. we know the Nightwatcher was'nt doing anythign wrong but obviously it looked bad from Leo's pov

[Warhorse]

where did it say that? page 86 says:


Leonardo somersaulted onto the street and ran after the Nightwatcher. The chase took the two down sidewalks and back alleys. Leonardo hurled an assortment of throwing stars at the Nightwatcher, and they all missed their target.


It said nothing about Raph having to duck and dodge. Only that he was being chased and non of the stars connected.

and you have to remember in the front of the store the only thing going on was the cook freaking out, The Nightwatcher holding the register and the cook yelling "Take it!Just take it! Just don't hurt me, please!" (pg.85). Raph put the register down and Leo sent the throwing star to get his attention. we know the Nightwatcher was'nt doing anythign wrong but obviously it looked bad from Leo's pov

I dont have the book on me to quote at the moment. But anyways, I'll stick in my two cents. First, you all say Leo threw a star as a warning sign to get Raph's attention. That worked. But then the chase happened, Leo clearly had Nightwatcher's attention, but yet still continued to throw stars? And they missed their target? It looks to me like Leo was intent on bringing down the Nightwatcher with those stars, and they missed. So that scene showed bad judgement on Leo's end. Because what was the point of continuing to fire warning shots? That's just stupid. And out of character for Leo. That's something Raph would pull, not Leo.

Doesn't matter, I liked the end of the fight, at least that's something the book had going for it, and left a Raphael fan like me pleased with the outcome. But Leo fans are going to hit the roof when they see that on the big screen.

[mik8la]

The whole throwing star business seems immaterial compared to the fact that Leo's character (and Splinter's) had to be compromised in order to advance what's actually a pretty good plot. I think I shall christen this version "PlotDevice!Leo" so I remember that in reality's he's not arrogant, or stupid (though Mikey and Donnie couldn't tell Nightwatcher was Raph even with the scrapbook), or incompetent (because apparently PlotDevice!Leo takes a whole year to learn...practically nothing). Maybe it's just the book that rubs me the wrong way, but the fact is, it's a movie adaptation, right down to the dialogue. Maybe I should be more optimistic, but I just don't know how to feel about the film anymore.

[Quiet_Guy]

Just got my copy today and

I didn't read the part where Leo says fight as one like we saw in the trailer. And boy I was suprised to see Leo lose to Raph and that year of training he had. Makes me wonder if Raph had Leo's attitude that perhaps he could be better than Leo as a fighter. Boy I love that opening scene with Leo fighting the thugs attacking that village. The fights should be well done on the big screen.

[johnnyblaze]

Why was he so concerned about the Night Watcher when he just came back anyways?



he said why: he looked at the articles in the scrapbook that showed the Nightwatcher and was concerned that it could put their family in danger (that part I did'nt get but I assume it has something to do with possible turtle sightings over the years, like the old cartoon or something). he also said that it seemed to be ego driven and not about justice, and that someone needed to talk to him. that's why he got pissed at Raph when he found out who he was, asking him why he would risk the well being of their family by doing what he was doing. and it's not like he was out and about looking to fight the guy--he was out looking for Raph when he ran into the Nightwatcher.

I don't know I think Leo worked in the story. His main concern is the family. Splinter even told him (and gave him **** when he did'nt produce the desired results) when he came back that he needs to step up and lead them, to be the older brother. Leo taking that to heart is exactly something he would do. His problem with the Nightwatcher--other than the fact that he saw what he was doing as being ego driven more than anything-- was that he thought it could put the heat on them. And even then after their initial encounter Leo tried to talk down the Nightwatcher and tell him that even though he knows and appreciates what he is doing that its not helping change the world. Hell even Casey stepped in after seeing the Nightwatcher in action to tell him he needs to calm it down.

And even though Leo's main concern was family driven I think the point was that he was'nt 100% right. He was a bit arrogant and he should have been more sensitive towards what Raph felt. You could see Leo's 'i'm better than you' outburst come out because of his frustration with Raph. And that's why he lost. He needed to be the bigger person but he pressed Raph when he was obviously upset and he should'nt have. Raph did throw them in a middle of a battle and Raph did mock Leo's attempts to talk to him earlier. That's not to say that Raph is wrong and Leo is right but that is to say that at the end of the day they are 2 teenagers with conflicting personalities and goals. Leo would'nt mind helping people out but he would mind when it put them in unneccessary danger or if it went down without a proper plan. Raphael also does'nt mind helping people out but he would rather act first and ask questions later. He's the right here and right now type.

Neither are compeltly wrong but neither are completly right which is how I personally think it should be, especially considering their situation. Leo calling Raph out as a last result was a low blow in the heat of an argument and i'll admit the thing I did'nt quite like was Leo not apologizing back to him. But even then the gentle teasing between the 2 as they fought at the end, the 2 of them hugging after the battle and the last scene with Leo smiling as he watched Raph earn his medallion spoke volumes to me. Plus I also think the point was that this is'nt going to be teh end of all their problems. Raph's speech at the end about family kind of pointed to that.

This is the beggining of a journey for all of them. Leo's trip was so he could learn to be a better leader for them and he has successes and failures when he came back-- I like that because Leo should'nt be the perfect student or son. (Man thinking about it--what if one point of the journey was to seperate them for a while and force them to look at themselves and how they relate to each other and their family. Splinter did say that our training works in mysterious ways.)Otherwise what else is there for him to grow up into. Raph was driven by jealousy in this flick and his disregard for his family. He still has a path to travel on to be a better team player/student/brother but he's on his way towards that path-like Leo. I thought both of them getting medallions symbolizing those journies showed that while they are vastly different their similarities will ultimatly bring them together and make them realize that they truly are on the same path in life and that just because they butt heads does'nt mean they can't keep it together. Just my opinion though.

[mik8la]

I agree that none of them were 100% right, but I still felt like Leo was shortchanged. He came off as stuck-up not only to Raph, but also to Don. He was all about family, yes, but it was difficult to see things from his side when he was so uncharacteristically incompetent and smug. While it was easy to see why Raphael earned his medallion, I didn't see how PlotDevice!Leo earned his. He trained for months but wasn't required to prove to Splinter that he'd reached a new skill level, though it's made obvious later that his "improvements" were minimal at best. His year away was pointless, and did nothing but set up the beginning of the story. Splinter's decision to send him off to train isn't explained thoroughly enough to keep it from smacking of favoritism, and casts the former in a less than flattering light (leaving PlotDevice!Leo to get the brunt of Raphael's anger). He wasn't any more qualified to be a leader after his return; when he gets back he can't get his brothers to work together; it's only after he's taken that they unite by themselves. He didn't even redeem himself skill-wise after being kidnapped. It's never clear why he's the leader when Raph seems to fill that position just fine during the rescue (another bone of contention--if this movie's supposed to skew closer to the comics, shouldn't Donnie have been the second-in-command?). He had no good memorable lines that adequately explained his motivations. Next to the fleshed-out Raph, PlotDevice!Leo comes off as flat and unrelatable nearly the whole way through, a convenient antagonist occasionally being required to act in certain ways in order to move the story along. As a fan, that's unbelievably frustrating. Maybe it wouldn't have come off so bad if the book had touched more on his feelings, or Splinter's. Hell, maybe even Mikey's or Don's.

It's disheartening, really, to think that even four films in, Leo might still nothing more than a foil to his brothers, and his biggest role in the franchise is to function as a plot device. *sigh* Well, maybe it won't actually be that bad on screen. Maybe. There, I'm done.

[sdp]

I went to Borders and saw a stand with the TMNT books, then i went to barnes and nobles and they also had it, i thought about reading "mike's journal" and "legend of yaotl" but as I flipped through them i saw that there might be spoilers in them, is there? I mean its obvious raph is the night watcher but i wonder if there are any spoilers from the movie novel on it like how he figures it out. Also on the 'legend of yaotl' i was going to read it since its a 'prequel' but then i thought maybe its explaining the same thing they do in the novel, is it? I can wait knowing thier origin if its in the movie.

without spoilers thanks.

[FearlessLeader]

Okay read the book tonight. I actually found Leo's character fairly well handled but maybe that’s because currently I am re-watching the first season of the 4Kids cartoon. Young Leo can come across as a little arrogant (Shredder Strikes part 1) and humility is a hard lesson he has had to learn as he grew. In fact I think Splinter tells him something similar to this when he stalks off to look for Raphael.

If you are looking for seasoned Leonardo, like in the current comics or in the later seasons of the 4Kids show, this he is not. That is why I honestly felt the tone of this film was more of a beginning then a continuation of the other films. Because Leonardo went through a lot of the same hard learned lessons about leadership in the first film also.

As for the year of training, the one thing that baffles me is it’s never made clear what type of training Leo journeyed for. Was it a journey to improve his physical skill, because from what Splinter said to him at his return it seemed like it was more a journey to learn about himself and to try to fill the role as Leader. Could Leo possibly learn everything he needed to know in one year... no. That’s why he himself states he is ready for the next level. Leo is only 15 or 16 here, still a baby in terms of his art. One note I will make, Leo did seem to learn something from his travels as he did have the sense to switch up his fighting style and get the drop on Raph and knock his helmet off.

I think what is really difficult here, is that the Leo they are presenting us with feels uncomfortable to us in this storyline. We have already been through Leo's growth with him in the films; we didn’t expect to have to go through it again. And honestly it’s the same with Raphael. In a lot of ways I feel like he is learning a lot of the same lessons he learned in the first film and in the first two seasons of the 4Kids cartoon again.

Which in truth is fine by me as long as I can stand back and look at this as its own world and not try to connect it to anything else.

As for the throwing star debate going on. One Leo threw the original star because yes the diner owner felt threatened by Raphael. Heck he was pleading with him not to hurt him. Leonardo was warning him. As for the rest, I reserve my judgment to decide about any fight scene until I actually see it played out in action. Fight scenes are hard enough to write as it is, and trying to write one at a child reading level, doesn't leave you much room for detail.

Also watch what you say about the author. Steve Murphy has worked with Mirage for a long time and he has written some of the best episodes of the new cartoon. I thought he handled all the characters really well.

As for Raph bullying Don... read some of the comics. The two butt heads, not often but they do tend to grate one another at times.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I think what is really difficult here, is that the Leo they are presenting us with feels uncomfortable to us in this storyline. We have already been through Leo's growth with him in the films; we didn’t expect to have to go through it again. And honestly it’s the same with Raphael. In a lot of ways I feel like he is learning a lot of the same lessons he learned in the first film and in the first two seasons of the 4Kids cartoon again.



Thing is, with both of them, we haven't. The first films only slightly touched upon those aspects. And the other two didn't touch upon them at all. So this really is in a way, a chance for thwm to start over and get deep into the characters.

[mik8la]

^ What he said. I don't have a problem keeping the universes separate, considering the vast differences in character design and their circumstances.

Yes, Leo in the first season had his moments of arrogance, but not to the extent of the one in the book. Some of his dialogue was just cringe-worthy. I understand that someone has to play the antagonist, but Leo deserved to be handled better than he was here.

The year of training, now that I think about it, might be my biggest annoyance. What was the point? It served to do nothing but take PlotDevice!Leo away from his family for a year, and made him look incompetent because it seemed like he'd learned nothing. Granted, he used the nonaggression technique to knock off Raph's helmet, but the outcome of the match depended on each brother's familiarity with the other's fighting style. Since Raph had no difficulty keeping up, then it stands to reason that PlotDevice!Leo didn't add anything new to his repertoire. Maybe the training was to improve his leadership skills...um, on his own? In the jungle?

So if the disparity in character representations is not the author's doing, then the screen play might be responsible. Which is somehow twice as discouraging.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

^ What he said. I don't have a problem keeping the universes separate, considering the vast differences in character design and their circumstances.

Yes, Leo in the first season had his moments of arrogance, but not to the extent of the one in the book. Some of his dialogue was just cringe-worthy. I understand that someone has to play the antagonist, but Leo deserved to be handled better than he was here.

The year of training, now that I think about it, might be my biggest annoyance. What was the point? It served to do nothing but take PlotDevice!Leo away from his family for a year, and made him look incompetent because it seemed like he'd learned nothing. Granted, he used the nonaggression technique to knock off Raph's helmet, but the outcome of the match depended on each brother's familiarity with the other's fighting style. Since Raph had no difficulty keeping up, then it stands to reason that PlotDevice!Leo didn't add anything new to his repertoire. Maybe the training was to improve his leadership skills...um, on his own? In the jungle?

So if the disparity in character representations is not the author's doing, then the screen play might be responsible. Which is somehow twice as discouraging.


Well maybe, like has been said before, Leo going away for a year, while I do see your point about being a plot device, was probably more about soul searching then martial arts training. You know, becoming more enlightend, Maybe that was just one part of his journey. If theres a sequel, maybe we can see the rest.

[Warhorse]

I just hope the movie is played out better than the book.

But I was just wondering. This is like the third time (that I have recollected) Raph has been able to really hurt one of his brothers, and the second time to almost kill one. Not to mention the ass kicking he gave to Karai in Exodus. This is supposed to be a loose adaptation to the movie (or at least I hope so) Leo at first had the upper hand in the fight. Then he got cocky and this added fuel to Raph's fire, and it was enough to send Raph over the edge, over power Leo and nearly stab him with his sai. He lost his temper and nearly clobbered Mikey with a pipe in the new toon, in the comics, he got enraged when Leo tried to stop him from going back to New York, and Raph snapped and picked Leo up and flung him through a wall. Seems to me when the boys are parrying, Raph will get beat. But when he's focused and truly pissed off, even Leo's skill can't stop him. Is this what Peter Laird is trying to convey to us fans on our perception of the Leo vs Raph debate. In order for Raph to win, his intentions have to be deadly?

Oh, another beef with me and the book. Is Splinter's telling Raph that he's not his favorite student, but he is also not his least favorite son. WTF was that all about? If I was Raph, I'd feel even worse after that statement.

And I don't care if this author has written comic stories for the TMNT. Writing a comic, which the pictures themselves can speak a thousand words, and writing a novel, in which you have to go into detail and become your character to describe his situation more, are different things. And I for one thought Steve Murphy didn't do such a good job. They should have let B.B. Hiller write the novel. She's actually pretty good.

[gobo]

I certainly am not saying that the anger issues should have been resolved easily, but it's already been used as a plot device in the movie franchise. It just feels a bit repetitive going back to that all over again when there's Mikey feeling like they're all meant for a bit more, or Don needing to be both the mechanic and the peacemaker of the family (and both aren't given any medallions. Maybe in the next film?). *shrug*

Gobo: I have to get defensive over your analysis. That's a very one-dimensional summary of Leo's character, and should not be applied to any of the turtles. The great thing about them is the fact that they're far more than their stereotypes, and if one of their incarnations comes off as "flat" in one of their mediums, then it's the medium's fault, not the character's. As for being "flat", I admit I wasn't that big a fan of Leo's until the new series (and even in the original comics he had his moments of darkness and pessimism). His responsibilities aren't "imagined"; if he had been a little less competent than he's allowed to be, he and his brothers would be dead a thousand times over. His job can be a very ungrateful thing--there are a million things he can't ever be allowed to do, or a lot of ways he can't be allowed to act because of it--but he does it because someone has to. He's a teenager, and he's being charged with protecting the lives of his siblings (and, by extension, the lives of the citizens of New York City). Do you really think this knowledge doesn't affect him in some way, or that this is impossible to be adequately translated to any sort of medium? Why does being responsible and hardworking and decent have to equate to being "flat"? Am I supposed to believe that those characteristics automatically negate any kind of character depth? I'm sorry, but I just cannot agree with your analysis.
I fully agree with several points of your argument. He's not without depth. But, most times, AFAIK, he chooses to stay on the surface because it would cause too many problems such as errors in judgement he can't afford to make. I say this from being no stranger to thinking that as well. As far as his 'imagined' responsibilities, I meant that there are some responsibilities that he takes up that no one has told him to or even wants him to. This is just Leo demanding too much of himself. I'm not sure this can be considered 'depth', but it's certainly a character flaw. It's internalizing and exaggerating the outside voices telling him what he ought to do. As for my definition of a flat character, I consider that to mean someone who is used as a representation of their virtues more than whatever else they bring to the story.
I want to make this clear for myself before I type out a long winded reply... are you seriously saying that Leo has always been a "flat" character? That you see no dimension to him?

Because I hope I am misunderstanding what you wrote above wrong, as none of the Turtles characters are flat or one dimensional.

Please clarify to that I can best frame my reply to you.
Sorry. I have a tendency to be a little cryptic. My response above should clear things up.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I just hope the movie is played out better than the book.

But I was just wondering. This is like the third time (that I have recollected) Raph has been able to really hurt one of his brothers, and the second time to almost kill one. Not to mention the ass kicking he gave to Karai in Exodus. This is supposed to be a loose adaptation to the movie (or at least I hope so) Leo at first had the upper hand in the fight. Then he got cocky and this added fuel to Raph's fire, and it was enough to send Raph over the edge, over power Leo and nearly stab him with his sai. He lost his temper and nearly clobbered Mikey with a pipe in the new toon, in the comics, he got enraged when Leo tried to stop him from going back to New York, and Raph snapped and picked Leo up and flung him through a wall. Seems to me when the boys are parrying, Raph will get beat. But when he's focused and truly pissed off, even Leo's skill can't stop him. Is this what Peter Laird is trying to convey to us fans on our perception of the Leo vs Raph debate. In order for Raph to win, his intentions have to be deadly?

Oh, another beef with me and the book. Is Splinter's telling Raph that he's not his favorite student, but he is also not his least favorite son. WTF was that all about? If I was Raph, I'd feel even worse after that statement.

And I don't care if this author has written comic stories for the TMNT. Writing a comic, which the pictures themselves can speak a thousand words, and writing a novel, in which you have to go into detail and become your character to describe his situation more, are different things. And I for one thought Steve Murphy didn't do such a good job. They should have let B.B. Hiller write the novel. She's actually pretty good.

Well, maybe you can look at it like this...Sometimes teachers favor some students over others becasue they progress quicker or they're more focused. Obviously Leo might be his favorite student because he's more disciplined/ But that doesn't mean he doesn't care for Raph. In terms of them being a family, he loves all four of them the same, and they're each his favorites for different reasons. Or you can look at it like trick statement. Maybe he sees all his students equal. None of them are his favorites, and none of them are his least favorites.

[johnnyblaze]

Well, maybe you can look at it like this...Sometimes teachers favor some students over others becasue they progress quicker or they're more focused. Obviously Leo might be his favorite student because he's more disciplined/ But that doesn't mean he doesn't care for Raph. In terms of them being a family, he loves all four of them the same, and they're each his favorites for different reasons. Or you can look at it like trick statement. Maybe he sees all his students equal. None of them are his favorites, and none of them are his least favorites.

that's what I liked. Splinter is handlng them on 2 fronts: as students and as sons. On one hand he wants them properly trained while on the other hand they are all his sons who he loves with all his heart and he does'nt want to see them hurt or against each other. its just a matter of balancing the 2. Raph's issue came from this or more specifically his jealousy towards Leo because he did'nt understand why Leo was sent to train and he was'nt. He thought it was something personal when it was'nt. it was just Leo being sent to train to be a better warrior

[mik8la]

I fully agree with several points of your argument. He's not without depth. But, most times, AFAIK, he chooses to stay on the surface because it would cause too many problems such as errors in judgement he can't afford to make. I say this from being no stranger to thinking that as well. As far as his 'imagined' responsibilities, I meant that there are some responsibilities that he takes up that no one has told him to or even wants him to. This is just Leo demanding too much of himself. I'm not sure this can be considered 'depth', but it's certainly a character flaw. It's internalizing and exaggerating the outside voices telling him what he ought to do. As for my definition of a flat character, I consider that to mean someone who is used as a representation of their virtues more than whatever else they bring to the story.

Ah, I see. I guess that's how he's being used in the new movie, then--more as a figurehead than anything else. That's a great point. I suppose it's easier to write him that way, but I think challenge of writing the turtles is to make them all more than the sum of their stereotypes. And, yes, that character flaw you pointed out should have contradicted the whole 'flatness' argument alone. I wouldn't have minded if that particular flaw--and others--had been tackled in the movie; it would've been preferable to see Leo in the movie making mistakes here and there because of these facets of his character, because at least he'd seem more real, instead of the flat caricature he had to be to move the plot along.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Ah, I see. I guess that's how he's being used in the new movie, then--more as a figurehead than anything else. That's a great point. I suppose it's easier to write him that way, but I think challenge of writing the turtles is to make them all more than the sum of their stereotypes. And, yes, that character flaw you pointed out should have contradicted the whole 'flatness' argument alone. I wouldn't have minded if that particular flaw--and others--had been tackled in the movie; it would've been preferable to see Leo in the movie making mistakes here and there because of these facets of his character, because at least he'd seem more real, instead of the flat caricature he had to be to move the plot along.


Well, I heard you mention that Leo comes off as being arrogant at times, well wouldn't that be considered a character flaw? But anyway, like I've said, we need a sequel that focuses on all the Turtles coming face to face with they're flaws, and sorta gowing up. They're probably wont be enough time in thei movie to cover all of them, but if all go well, number two can pick things up.

[Roseangelo]

At least you guys can debate about Leo's character in the book/movie. I'm stuck keeping my fingers crossed that the book left out the part of the movie where Michaelangelo actually does something. :dead: Cowabunga Carl is cute and all, but really, in the book, what more is there?

[mik8la]

Well, I heard you mention that Leo comes off as being arrogant at times, well wouldn't that be considered a character flaw? But anyway, like I've said, we need a sequel that focuses on all the Turtles coming face to face with they're flaws, and sorta gowing up. They're probably wont be enough time in thei movie to cover all of them, but if all go well, number two can pick things up.

The arrogance was certainly a flaw, though not really one of the flaws I'd most associate with Leo (and not to this extent where he appeared surprised that his brothers were competent beings; you'd think after being away from them so long he'd be glad to be in their company again). I wouldn't mind if they had a sequel that revolved more around Don or Mikey's issues; Mikey's line about being "meant for more" is one of my favorites in the book. And more of the Foot and Karai. I was kind of disappointed by the underutilization of Karai.

At least you guys can debate about Leo's character in the book/movie. I'm stuck keeping my fingers crossed that the book left out the part of the movie where Michaelangelo actually does something. :dead: Cowabunga Carl is cute and all, but really, in the book, what more is there?

I'm with you there. I was kind of puzzled that he and Don didn't earn any medallions even though they did work all together in the final battle. Frankly, though, I would have been happier with Leo being relegated to background fodder than the deus ex machina he had to be here. But what's done is done, and I think I'll follow your example and just cross my fingers and hope for the best.

[Roseangelo]

I kinda thought the medallion thing was weird in the first place (I mean, since when did Splinter give out prizes for being good ninjas?).

I know we've been reading that the story is about family more than anything else for a long time, and the more I think about it, the more I think the story needs to be thought of in this regard. We're all used to looking at any TMNT story and dissecting the actions of each character, particularly our own personal favorite character, individually. If this story is about any one turtle more than the others, it's definitely Raphael, but even for him it's about how he comes to accept the people around him as being more than just people he shares a bathroom with and that being family can still include trying to occasionally kill each other (as he says on the last page of the book) - although I would hope not as close to literally killing each other as his fight with Leo was. Yeah, we all know Raph is a softy on the inside and that he really does love his entire family, but when a person has a tough outer shell like he does (pun intended), it can be difficult for that person to admit to themselves that they're a softy.

So if I can watch the movie and see a fleshed-out family dynamic that we only got a glimpse of in the book, I'll be happy.

[Rooish]

So... am I to understand that the book (and therefore movie) has a crappy family dynamic and that Don and Mike don't get any development? I'm used to both of those things, but I really expected better this time around.

[Raph's Girl]

I went to Borders and saw a stand with the TMNT books, then i went to barnes and nobles and they also had it, i thought about reading "mike's journal" and "legend of yaotl" but as I flipped through them i saw that there might be spoilers in them, is there? I mean its obvious raph is the night watcher but i wonder if there are any spoilers from the movie novel on it like how he figures it out. Also on the 'legend of yaotl' i was going to read it since its a 'prequel' but then i thought maybe its explaining the same thing they do in the novel, is it? I can wait knowing thier origin if its in the movie.

without spoilers thanks.

Legend of Yaotl is indeed a background on Yaotl as well as the origin of the cthulans (the monsters). However, it does spoil the novelization in one aspect in that it tells us that Max Winters is Yaotl.

Legend of Yaotl is told from the perspective of a Watcher (kinda like the one in Marvel comics...only female and more robot like) named Observer Leveal 3.14 She has been watching over the earth from the moon for over 8 thousand years.

[Warhorse]

Ok, let me put it in another perspective. After reading this book, it seemed short and rushed (which kind of scares me after reading about this 81 minute time frame the real movie may have) But I also walked away not liking Leo very much. He was always portrayed a leader because he was likable, can talk one on one with his brothers, and didn't force them to listen to him (like when he pulls the plug on Mikey's game and Don's experiment) And the way Leo and Splinter seemed to gang up on Raph, made me root for Raph all the more. Hehe, now I know why Kevin Monroe said Raph is coming across as the favorite, you can't help but feel his pain of struggling in a world that seems to be against him.

Also, I agree with mika and Roseangelo, the medallion giving was a bit tasteless.

But the good things about the book, since I seem to complain about it. Casey and Raph's talk was very poignant, and I like how Raph mentions the Utroms and Triceratons.
I liked Max's character, in that he threw you for a loop at the end. (Bit of a sixth sense style kudos in that part)
I knew Raph was gonna get that dagger in his shell from sheilding Casey from it, and that was cool to see in the book. But I was surprised to see it was a tranguilizer.
I loved it when Donny retorted to Leo "Hello, Genious here!" HAHA, I love it. Judging from this book, I wager you all that Donny will be stealing the show in this one. His moments were few, but you couldn't help but like the guy everytime he had his appearance!
Mikey, while his scenes were few, he has matured quite a bit, and looks like his movie incarnations will continue to be my favorite versions of him! And I felt bad for him with how those little brats treated him. Why do kids do that? Hit the mascots and stuff?
Karai also shows promise, and her small plot is just screaming for a more prominent role in the sequel (which I really hope there is one)

While I had some beefs with the book, I am still optimistic that the movie will be better.

[Rooish]

Hmmm. I never thought I'd see the day where Mikey's scenes were few! (Except in the old comics). I figured he was always overdone because he's so popular. But anyway, that's fine. Let's just pray for sequels. Lots of sequels. The medallion thing sounds really stupid.

It seems like a psychological drama, practically. Was it?

[Roseangelo]

So... am I to understand that the book (and therefore movie) has a crappy family dynamic and that Don and Mike don't get any development? I'm used to both of those things, but I really expected better this time around.

Nono, that's not what I intended to imply at all. There's just stuff that is obviously missing in the book.

For the family element...
In the book it skips from Raph seeing Leo has returned to the next day (or maybe even a few days later) when everyone is just hanging out in the lair. There's no scene where Mike and Don see that Leo has returned, which I would really hope to be in the movie.

In the leaked pics we see that Mike overhears Raph's conversation with Splinter after he fights Leo. This is not in the book at all. (I think this has potential to be a good Mikey moment.) And also not in the book at all is the revelation to everyone that Raph is Nightwatcher. Casey finds out earlier and Leo finds out during the fight.. but I would assume that after the fight everyone would find out. Considering Mikey is built as a Nightwatcher fanboy, there HAS to be moment when he finds out it's Raph.

The leaked pictures also imply more scenes of the Turtles and Splinter just hanging out than we saw in the book, which is the kind of stuff that I like to see.

As for Mike and Don...
They are definitely not background elements. But I would say Don gets more moments than Mike. When they're all on the rooftops and decide to play "ninja tag," it's Don who realizes it'd be to his and Mike's advantage to have Leo and Raph teamed together (Mike originally wants to team with Leo), because there's obvious friction there. And Don gets to be geek by researching the dart that Raph gets hit with and also the monsters.

We see in the trailer a sequence of Michaelangelo on his skateboard going through the sewers. I don't even think the word skateboard is in the book, let alone any mention of this sequence. In one of the recent website interviews, it was either Kevin Munroe or Tom Gray that said they considered there to be three BIG sequences in the movie: The Raph/Leo fight, the Mikey skateboarding sequence, and something else that I don't recall right now. The way they talked of the skateboarding sequence was that they wanted to show that they lived DEEP under the city, that it wasn't an "easy" place to get to, and that you couldn't just accidentally stumble into it. Right now I'm guessing this sequence might be when Mike returns from his Cowabunga Carl gig, but I can't say for certain. It'll be a good Mike sequence, but obviously it's more of a visual thing than a character thing.

[Rooish]

Oh yeah, that kind of stuff pisses me off. Please God, let it be in the movie. I want Don's and Mike's reactions to things, too. Is that too much to ask? Heh, they could have added just a bit of that... maybe even made the movie 90 minutes long with character development. :)

[Cascadia]

my books are put away for several months. No need to spoil me anymore.

[johnnyblaze]

not exactly novel related but what scene I'm looking forward to that was'nt in the book is the lullaby scene. Apparently it was ad libbed by Mako and is part of a scene where Splinter is trying to get the turtles to calm down and relax (i'm guessing it could be during a meditation sequence) by singing an old chinese lullaby. its supposed to be very haunting and touching and i'm looking forward to it.

[Roseangelo]

not exactly novel related but what scene I'm looking forward to that was'nt in the book is the lullaby scene. Apparently it was ad libbed by Mako and is part of a scene where Splinter is trying to get the turtles to calm down and relax (i'm guessing it could be during a meditation sequence) by singing an old chinese lullaby. its supposed to be very haunting and touching and i'm looking forward to it.

I can't agree more; I'm also reallyreally looking forward to this.

And we've also been told that the turtle voice actors did a bit of ad-libbing in the booth (as all four turtles did most of their recording together), so this is other stuff we could see in the movie that isn't in the book.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Ok, let me put it in another perspective. After reading this book, it seemed short and rushed (which kind of scares me after reading about this 81 minute time frame the real movie may have) But I also walked away not liking Leo very much. He was always portrayed a leader because he was likable, can talk one on one with his brothers, and didn't force them to listen to him (like when he pulls the plug on Mikey's game and Don's experiment) And the way Leo and Splinter seemed to gang up on Raph, made me root for Raph all the more. Hehe, now I know why Kevin Monroe said Raph is coming across as the favorite, you can't help but feel his pain of struggling in a world that seems to be against him.

Maybe thats what they were going for, trying to make you see things through Raph's perspective, and to him maybe it seemed like Leo and Master Splinter were ganging up on them.

[Rooish]

not exactly novel related but what scene I'm looking forward to that was'nt in the book is the lullaby scene. Apparently it was ad libbed by Mako and is part of a scene where Splinter is trying to get the turtles to calm down and relax (i'm guessing it could be during a meditation sequence) by singing an old chinese lullaby. its supposed to be very haunting and touching and i'm looking forward to it.

Woah, where did you hear that?

[Roseangelo]

From here (http://www.superherohype.com/news/tmntnews.php?id=5133).

He's their dad. There's just a warmth to his voice. It's not caricature which is really fun because it's Mako just being Mako, and he's just a seasoned quality to his voice. He has a very wise-sounding voice and very warm, cause that's what we were going after. It's fun, too, 'cause we got to do a few Japanese interjections. He did sing a lullaby to the guys. He would hum to himself this Japanese song he remembered as a kid, being a kid. It was great because we were actually listening to his voice on the screen last week on the sound stage over at Warner Bros. and it was great, and it fills in very nicely.

[johnnyblaze]

i've read it in a few other places as well. all I know is that he sings it as he tries to relax the boys who are a bit fired up for whatever reason

edit-MTV.com has some solid coverage of the film where they talk a little about casting, goals for the flick and a hint at Karai's long term goals (you can find that in the Winter Games video)

http://www.mtv.com/#/movies/

[Rooish]

That sounds beautiful! This movie will be a very unique one, won't it?

Roseangelo (and others who have read it), I do have another question about the novels, if that's okay. Do the Turtles have any significant interactions outside of the Leo-Raph and Don-Mike pairs?

Edit: Oh, and one more. Would you say it will be darker than the other movies, as promised? ;)

[Roseangelo]

Roseangelo, I do have another question about the novels, if that's okay. Do the Turtles have any significant interactions outside of the Leo-Raph and Don-Mike pairs?

Outside of the Leo/Raph fight and Mike & Don's business venture with Cowabunga Carl (which, in the book at least, is only at the very beginning before Leo even comes back), there really isn't significant pairing of any two turtles.

I've only read the book once, and plan to keep it that way before the movie is released, but I think most of the interaction between the Turtles outside of those two instances is within the entire group. Don't hold me to that, though. :)

[Buslady]

Well I read it and it didn't do anything for me. I feel the actual film will be LOTS better. It felt like I was reading a summary of the general idea of the storyline. No thought was put into writing the book, even for a kid's level. I've seen better.
That's all I will say.

*waits impatiently for major Raph action in 2 mos*

[johnnyblaze]

That sounds beautiful! This movie will be a very unique one, won't it?

Roseangelo (and others who have read it), I do have another question about the novels, if that's okay. Do the Turtles have any significant interactions outside of the Leo-Raph and Don-Mike pairs?



there is a small debate between Raph and Don about what's right and wrong about being a vigilante.

[Warhorse]

Well I read it and it didn't do anything for me. I feel the actual film will be LOTS better. It felt like I was reading a summary of the general idea of the storyline. No thought was put into writing the book, even for a kid's level. I've seen better.
That's all I will say.

*waits impatiently for major Raph action in 2 mos*

I know. I agree! I still think this movie has some serious ROCKING scenes that we will be thrilled and cheering on till the end!

[Aignatius]

After reading it through again, (since it's not much longer than a National Geographic magazine article, heh) and reading the comments here, I can see where the story is rather sloppily written.

The chase scene with Leo and Raph, especially. Leo throwing a number of stars at Raph, and missing his target? Uhm, no, I am not convinced, unless Leo had been seriously dipping into the sake beforehand, and I doubt he'd miss even after that. I agree, there has to be a lot more going on than just chasing and throwing stars.
And what is up with Leo saying "I'm better than you."??? Sheesh, I'd say Go for it Raph, beat the snot out of him. ;)
Heh, don't get me wrong, I like Leo, but the way he comes across in this little book, egadz. Daddy's boy indeed.

I am hoping it's just been a kiddified and probably hastily written project, but judging from the dialogue in the trailer, I think the script has been modified quite a bit since this book was written.

[Buslady]

After reading it through again, (since it's not much longer than a National Geographic magazine article, heh) and reading the comments here, I can see where the story is rather sloppily written.

The chase scene with Leo and Raph, especially. Leo throwing a number of stars at Raph, and missing his target? Uhm, no, I am not convinced, unless Leo had been seriously dipping into the sake beforehand, and I doubt he'd miss even after that. I agree, there has to be a lot more going on than just chasing and throwing stars.
And what is up with Leo saying "I'm better than you."??? Sheesh, I'd say Go for it Raph, beat the snot out of him. ;)
Heh, don't get me wrong, I like Leo, but the way he comes across in this little book, egadz. Daddy's boy indeed.

I am hoping it's just been a kiddified and probably hastily written project, but judging from the dialogue in the trailer, I think the script has been modified quite a bit since this book was written.


I completely agree...OMG...

AAHHH I'M GLAD RAPH GOT TO BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF LEO!!! "I'm better than you?" WTF?!?! KICK HIS @$$!!!! What I think is kind of cheap..medallions? WHA? Unless there's more to them than just a cool prize..maybe in the next movie about them?
I Didn't like Splinter's KNEEL...what are they dogs? Come on! Raph isn't a doggie to be commanded, and the book made it feel that way. I could have written the book better....

I'll shut up now

[Roseangelo]

AAHHH I'M GLAD RAPH GOT TO BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF LEO!!! "I'm better than you?" WTF?!?! KICK HIS @$$!!!!

I have to admit, I'm quite pleased that Raph DID beat up Leo, especially after that line.

[Warhorse]

My question is, do some of you fans really like to see Leonardo being portrayed like this? And Splinter being a bit out of whack too? I mean, yes, Leo has been cocky in the past, like in The Shredder Strikes with the whole "whose weapon is better" but Splinter was right there to bring Leo back down to earth. In this story, Splinter seems to be part of the problem, and I don't like that.

Leo also comes across as bit of a hipocrite too. In the beginning, he became somewhat of a vigilante when he helped those villagers from the bad man. And that is what Leo does, he helps people in need. That is one of his trademarks, and I adore him for that. It's why he's been my second favorite in most incarnations.

But then he comes back, and has to investigate this Nightwatcher, when he himself was doing a similar act, not as severe, I'll give you that, but he was jsut doing the same thing maybe a few days ago himself.

Maybe some of you who seem to like the book can tolerate Leo being portrayed as the bad guy within the good guy family, but I can't.

Please, oh please let the movie carry this whole ordeal in a better and more pleasing way!

[FearlessLeader]

How is Leo a bad guy?

Young yes.... arrogent yes...but bad? I see you trying to make a comparison between Leonardo helping the villagers and Raphael being the Nightwatcher the different is, Leonardo isn't beating the living crud out of people, which is what the Media is saying the Nightwatcher does. Raphael as the Nightwatcher is not only chasing after criminals he is beating the crap out of them, even Casey when he first meets up with Raph thinks he is getting a little carried away (Which I thought was a cute nod to the when Raph and Casey first met and the roles were reversed.) Leonardo is not so much concerned by the what the Nightwatcher does, its how he is doing it. Leonardo has never said anything to Casey about his vigilante ways because Casey always kept it with boundries, ones the Nightwatcher is now crossing.

As for if I like this version of Leo. I don't condone him acting this way, nor do I hate his character for being this way. I understand its part of his growth process into becoming a "man" I mean who here in there midteens never made some mistakes, never thought more of themselves then they should and never said VERY stupid things to the people that are important to them. Thats my whole take on the "I'm better then you" line to Raphael. Leonardo was angry. He said something stupid. What two brothers when fighting have not said hurtful, asinine things to each other.

All of Leo's flaws make him seem more real. I would be more disapointed if he did always take the highroad, if he never lost his temper, never showed misplaced passion. Leonardo and Raphael actually learn a lot of the same lessons in this film about the importance of one another of family and I think if there is a next film you will a more humble more controlled more familiar version of Leonardo. But allow him his mistakes to get there.

No one has made any mention about the fact Raphael is beating the crap out of minor thugs just to work through his own angry issues... is that right... no... do I fault him for it. Raphael too is growing and learning. He has so much pent inside of him and without a release who knows what would happen.

I just don't see Leonardo as a "bad guy" here. Anymore then Raphael is for what he is doing. They are both just teenage boys trying to work there way through life and figure out the best path for themsevles and knocking heads while doing it.

To me that seems more realitstic.

[johnnyblaze]

My question is, do some of you fans really like to see Leonardo being portrayed like this? And Splinter being a bit out of whack too? I mean, yes, Leo has been cocky in the past, like in The Shredder Strikes with the whole "whose weapon is better" but Splinter was right there to bring Leo back down to earth. In this story, Splinter seems to be part of the problem, and I don't like that.

Leo also comes across as bit of a hipocrite too. In the beginning, he became somewhat of a vigilante when he helped those villagers from the bad man. And that is what Leo does, he helps people in need. That is one of his trademarks, and I adore him for that. It's why he's been my second favorite in most incarnations.

But then he comes back, and has to investigate this Nightwatcher, when he himself was doing a similar act, not as severe, I'll give you that, but he was jsut doing the same thing maybe a few days ago himself.

Maybe some of you who seem to like the book can tolerate Leo being portrayed as the bad guy within the good guy family, but I can't.

Please, oh please let the movie carry this whole ordeal in a better and more pleasing way!



all he said was that he dissaproved of how he was doing his work, that he was afraid that the activities this guy did could put heat on them, and he said it seemed more like ego more than anything. granted he said someone should talk to this guy but he did'nt volunteer himself or anything or made it a personal vendetta. the only reason he approached the Nightwatcher was because he happened to run into him during the entire diner scene while he was out looking for Raph. stopping him was'nt exactly high, must do, priority for him and was just something he did because he was there to catch the chaos. and when he did get the chance to talk he even told him that he appreciates what he is doing but that he isn't helping anything change for the better with how he is doing it.

and it was let known that the Nightwatcher was described as "overly violent, verging on the edge of lethal". Heck even Casey and Don pointed out that Nightwatcher needs to take it down a notch.I can see where he is coming from with the way he handled things and I don't think its wrong. Not to menion that even though part of the reason Raph was doing this was to fight bad guys the other part was because he was jealous and angry and was looking for something to release that frustration on.

I think the point Leo went wrong was when he took a verbal low blow at Raph in the heat of the moment, especially when it was becoming clear that Raph was truly upset about somthing other than bad guys. He should have thought before he said that. But that was'nt enough to make me dislike him but it was enough to let me know that he was at heart a teenager and could lose his cool especially while dealing with Raphael who he has such an up and down relationship with

I just don't think Leo is the bad guy ( nor, might I add,do I think Raph is the bad guy)

[Warhorse]

Well, Reira, it's good to see that you like the book, and can accept anything it throws at you without questioning it. Everyone is different and has their opinion.

My opinion, this book took a character that I have always loved, and butchered him! There, I said it. I cannot and will not accept Leo in this light. What makes Leo, well Leo, is that he is well diciplined, an over achiever, but yet very thoughtful, and will defend his family to the death.

This book has him as a pushover, bossy, condesending and provocative towards his brothers. And in this light, that is why I said he is set up as the bad guy within the good guy family. Much like in the X-Men movies, where you know Cyclpose is a good guy, along with Wolverine, but I couldn't help but look at Cyclopse as the little turd that I wish would just leave or something.

I at one time was tempted to throw the book in the garbage, I was getting so disgusted with the way Splinter, Leo and April were being handled. I hould have, and I wouldn't be so depressed, and feeling all this pressure because my opinions are being attacked. (Or at least they seem like it) Maybe someone should do a poll on rather they liked the book or not. I'm curious to what the results would be!

[johnnyblaze]

no one is trying to attack you--just trying to discuss what we do and don't agree with. sorry if it comes off that way

[In The Clouds]

Well, Reira, it's good to see that you like the book, and can accept anything it throws at you without questioning it. Everyone is different and has their opinion.

My opinion, this book took a character that I have always loved, and butchered him! There, I said it. I cannot and will not accept Leo in this light. What makes Leo, well Leo, is that he is well diciplined, an over achiever, but yet very thoughtful, and will defend his family to the death.

This book has him as a pushover, bossy, condesending and provocative towards his brothers. And in this light, that is why I said he is set up as the bad guy within the good guy family. Much like in the X-Men movies, where you know Cyclpose is a good guy, along with Wolverine, but I couldn't help but look at Cyclopse as the little turd that I wish would just leave or something.

I at one time was tempted to throw the book in the garbage, I was getting so disgusted with the way Splinter, Leo and April were being handled. I hould have, and I wouldn't be so depressed, and feeling all this pressure because my opinions are being attacked. (Or at least they seem like it) Maybe someone should do a poll on rather they liked the book or not. I'm curious to what the results would be!

I agree with Reira. And I agreed with Reira before I even read the book. I much prefer a "real" Leo to a St. Leo the Perfect Who Can Do No Wrong. :roll:

[FearlessLeader]

If I may make a friendly suggestion to you Warhorse, no one is attacking you we are having a lively debate about a fandom we enjoy, I may be a bit impassioned, but that's only because Leonardo is my favorite fictional character ever. ;)

Now as for my friendly suggestion, I highly recommend you pick up and read issues #13 and #14 of the new Tales run. If you want a good display of the many sides of Leonardo. It shows him as a child, as a teen, as middle aged and as an elder. He has different personalities at each age as we all do and I think you would enjoy it very much. :tlove:

[Warhorse]

no one is trying to attack you--just trying to discuss what we do and don't agree with. sorry if it comes off that way


Thanks. Really. This makes me feel better. I'm upset on the whole Leo thing. That's all. Sometimes you and Reira make points to help me see a better verions of him in this book. But I'm just used to Leo being the Turtle you could always look up to, not disapprove of(that's how I felt at times) And mind you, this is coming from a serious, hard core Raphael fan. Which, by the way, it was kind of nice to see Raph kick Leo's butt. I bet that knocked the wind out of Leo's sail!:D

If I may make a friendly suggestion to you Warhorse, no one is attacking you we are having a lively debate about a fandom we enjoy, I may be a bit impassioned, but that's only because Leonardo is my favorite fictional character ever.

Now as for my friendly suggestion, I highly recommend you pick up and read issues #13 and #14 of the new Tales run. If you want a good display of the many sides of Leonardo. It shows him as a child, as a teen, as middle aged and as an elder. He has different personalities at each age as we all do and I think you would enjoy it very much. :tlove:

What is the comic book like? *Takes a deep breath, getting ready for the onslaught* because, I uh, how am I gonna put this. Geesh. Really don't like comics. I dont know why, I really don't. Friends in the past have no idea why I can't stand comics. But uh, I jsut never enjoyed the Turtle comics in the passed, but I loved the result of one of the comic book stories adapted to the 2k3 toon. But there is just something about comics I can't take seriously. I've seen a few of the TMNT comics online, but never in the stores, so I don't have to much exposure to them.

[johnnyblaze]

as long as everythings cool. we all have our opinions and theres nothing wrong with yours

[Rooish]

I remember that, when I used to skulk around the 'Drome before actually joining, someone (Ryona, I think) did a post about how everyone expects Leo to be a nice, modest goody-two-shoes, when in reality he is a cold, proud, arrogant and dominating guy (at least he was in some of the older comics). Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion... I think she was positive hers was right, and in some ways I share her opinion on Leo, although I don't like Leo quite so harsh and cold... I want to see him be protective and loving of his brothers, but still slightly arrogant too. He is good, after all. But I don't want him to be an asshole who bullies his brothers. I hope the movie handles him evenly and doesn't break the souls of his fans.

[FearlessLeader]

when in reality he is a cold, proud, arrogant and dominating guy (at least he was in some of the older comics).

Interesting idea, but I have never thought of Leo as either cold or dominating. (and I honestly have never seen him be this way in the comics) Leo has a sense of humor, Leo loves his brothers and Splinter immensely... but he isn't perfect and he certainly has his faults. He is proud and young Leo does tend to come across as arrogant at times.

I think in terms of the film I am just happy they are making all the characters more real, more three dimensional. Like in the 4Kids cartoon or the first film. Leo isn't simply the serious leader that bickers with Raphael about being a hothead. He makes mistakes, he learns from them and he becomes a better person. I love Leo's character for all his faults, for how hard he tries to over come them all the while trying to live up to what his family expects of him. One of my favorite scenes from Season 4 is during Samurai Tourist and Mikey describing all the pressure Leo puts on himself so that the rest of them can be free to do what they want to do.


What is the comic book like? *Takes a deep breath, getting ready for the onslaught* because, I uh, how am I gonna put this. Geesh. Really don't like comics. I dont know why, I really don't. Friends in the past have no idea why I can't stand comics. But uh, I jsut never enjoyed the Turtle comics in the passed, but I loved the result of one of the comic book stories adapted to the 2k3 toon. But there is just something about comics I can't take seriously. I've seen a few of the TMNT comics online, but never in the stores, so I don't have to much exposure to them.

Nothing wrong with not liking comics ;) Personally outside of Turtles I don't read any others myself either. This storyline is about Leo being transported deep into the past, to deliver a gift for a character he had met in another Tales issue. This character Pai-Doth Noor ends up sending the four versions of Leo to carry out his mission. I really enjoy the Turtes comics and Steve Murphy writes this one too so maybe you can get a better glimpse at his style then from the novel. Its called Loops parts 1 and 2 and I am pretty sure you can order it right form the offical site.

[johnnyblaze]

he just does'nt come off as very harsh and cold to me. I think the fact that he loves his family came across like during his reaction to finding out Raph was the Nightwatcher and how he went from shock to him asking how he could risk his family like that.

he is definatly very serious and a bit arrogant, has a 'take charge of the situation' type personality and their time apart definatly put a strain on his relationship with Raph(Leo even tried to talk to Raph about it earlier in the story but could'nt get him to talk to him) but I definatly can tell that he cares for his family and that his main concern is there safety, even if he has to throw some weight around and get in a few faces to make sure they are all safe.

[triplexxx]

Just as long as he understands his brothers are just as self-sufficient as him, and that it's just as much their duty to take risks and to protect the family as it is his, there's nothing wrong.

[gobo]

...

















I totally forgot what I was going to post. :sweatdro: Don't you just hate it when that happens?

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Just as long as he understands his brothers are just as self-sufficient as him, and that it's just as much their duty to take risks and to protect the family as it is his, there's nothing wrong.


EDIT: Ignore my post. The more I think about it, the more I realize I'm of two minds on the issue. I don't which side to take.

Oh and poor gobo :: pats his head :: that's happened to me so many times reading this particular thread. I'm surprised I'm posting anything at all. Don't you worry-- something'll spark, I'm sure. :p

[johnnyblaze]

Just as long as he understands his brothers are just as self-sufficient as him, and that it's just as much their duty to take risks and to protect the family as it is his, there's nothing wrong.


well its not really about taking risks, that's what he likes to avoid. whenever something is about to go wrong he always pulls back and thinks I need a plan (I think it was a bit fitting that when Raph led the team to get him back he pointed out that they needed a plan first instead of kicking the door in and beating the crap out of everything that moved like he usually does).

but while he's leader he still expects them to look out for their best interests as well as the families. that's why he get's pissed when he finds out about Raph, and why he was a bit annoyed when he found out that they sometimes skip out on their training. but on the same clip Splinter gave him instructions to guide them and its not something he will take lightly. its easier to do with Don and Mike though because they listen to him. Raph does'nt, which is where his frustration comes from. especially considering the point of his training was so he could be better for them.

[Aignatius]

Bottom line is, if someone who was not as familiar with the Leo character picked up this movie book and read it, would he/she have as much sympathy for Leo as those who have watched his character development over the years and the various incarnations of his character in the books, movies, etc?

Sorry for the run-on sentence, I don't feel like fixing it. :sleep:

[Warhorse]

Nothing wrong with not liking comics ;) Personally outside of Turtles I don't read any others myself either. This storyline is about Leo being transported deep into the past, to deliver a gift for a character he had met in another Tales issue. This character Pai-Doth Noor ends up sending the four versions of Leo to carry out his mission. I really enjoy the Turtes comics and Steve Murphy writes this one too so maybe you can get a better glimpse at his style then from the novel. Its called Loops parts 1 and 2 and I am pretty sure you can order it right form the offical site.

Can you still pick up the TMNT comics at the comic stores? Do they sell like collections in one book. (My friend's son collects comics, and he sometimes can come across a book that features like years worth of a comic series in one novel. I like that better than the individual books, so you don't have to worry about losing them!

Also about your comments on Leo being cold. I agree. I never really got into the comics, but I what I have seen, Leo was never cold. There might have been a time after Exodus, when he might have been emotionally burned out, but that doesn't make one cold. It's more of a depression, and just about everyone gets depressed. Unless your Michelangelo.






Bottom line is, if someone who was not as familiar with the Leo character picked up this movie book and read it, would he/she have as much sympathy for Leo as those who have watched his character development over the years and the various incarnations of his character in the books, movies, etc?

Sorry for the run-on sentence, I don't feel like fixing it. :sleep:

This is why I hope I am enterpeting the book on a harsh level, and that the movie will relate much more favorably, since then you will be able to hear tones, sighs and get a much better feel for the overall attitude and emotion.

[TMNT]

There's a scene in the novelization that I wish would play out like this:

Nightwatcher sees Casey staring at him with bat in hand. Casey stares at him and says, "The class is Pain 101. Meet your instructor--Casey Jones." The Nightwatcher seems unimpressed, "Look, I don't wanna' fight you." Casey isn't taking no for an answer and swings at the Nightwatcher. After a few close calls, the Nightwatcher grabs the bat, "A Jose Conseco bat? Tell me, you didn't pay money for this!" At this comment, Casey pulls back, "Raph?" The Nightwatcher takes off his helmet and reveals that it is indeed Raph.

[Rooish]

Just read (finally) the novelization. I had an issue with the characterizations, and I wonder if anyone else saw it.

Leo was fantastic, Mikey was great, Casey was great, Splinter was fine, Raph was great except a little too spiteful in his treatment of Leo (in my opinion; Raph never even told Leo what was wrong; he just threw him at a billboard and attacked him with a chain and stuff). April was good, but I'm kind of sick of her being a bitch to Casey--I mean he's sloppy and annoying at times, but the whole ridiculously overdone hyper-assertive-too-good-for-her-boyfriend April is kind of grating. I've just seen this dynamic too much in everything.

But the character I was trying to get to was Don. What's with Don? He reminded me of Don from MNT Gaiden (Tigerfog's online manga), although not quite so sociopathic. He was basically just a machine. All he said was nerdy things. He didn't even respond when Mikey got all philosophical. He didn't ever seem to care about anyone (although I know the script was abridged for the book). I was pretty disappointed with Don's portrayal; isn't he supposed to be sensitive or pacifistic or something?

[johnnyblaze]

I thought that showed when he was arguing with Raph about the Nightwatcher and what was right and wrong about being a vigilante and when he was wondering if it was a good idea for them to help the foot despite their past. Aside from that he is definatly portrayed as nerdy and caught up in his work and his project in the beggining--which was to get them central heating in the lair or something like that. He also tried to act as mediator between Raph and Leo by telling Mike it was a good idea for he and Mike to teamup after he noticed the rift between Raph and Leo. He was more of the answer guy in this story but I thought his thoughtful and 'absent minded proffesor' like personality traits were apparent