Could someone enlighten me....

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

What exactly did Dave Sims say/do to make PL wan't to erase the Cerebus crossover from TMNT cannon?

[DrSpengler]

Dave Sims has been known to have a very disagreeable attitude, but I don't know if Lair'd desire to remake Vol. 1 #8 has to do with anything personal.

#8 was a very silly issue yet a very important one at that. It's possible Laird wants to erase the goofiness of the story.

Also, I question whether there's bad blood between Laird and Sim. I mean, "Cerebus" made a brief cameo in the "Time Travails" episode of 2k3 which adapted #8. I doubt Laird would have allowed that "cameo" if he hated Sim's guts.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Dave Sims has been known to have a very disagreeable attitude, but I don't know if Lair'd desire to remake Vol. 1 #8 has to do with anything personal.

#8 was a very silly issue yet a very important one at that. It's possible Laird wants to erase the goofiness of the story.

Also, I question whether there's bad blood between Laird and Sim. I mean, "Cerebus" made a brief cameo in the "Time Travails" episode of 2k3 which adapted #8. I doubt Laird would have allowed that "cameo" if he hated Sim's guts.

Oh, I thought maybe Sims may have said something Laird didn't agree with.

[Roseangelo]

Dave Sim (no 's' on the end) has some strict rules that he has imposed on himself when it comes to comic books, and Cerebus in general. One of these, as I understand it, involves not signing contracts. Publishing a cross-over comic without signing a piece of paper concerning it is apparently a rare and not so easy thing to do. But it ended up working out for the original publishing of #8 and the books that reprinted that issue.

I believe Peter's decision in removing Cerebus from things has to do with this and assuming that it would be either impossible or a pain in the butt to legally be able to reprint that issue. However, if you read the letters page of Cerebus #300, Dave Sim addresses this issue to Peter and basically gives him freedom to reprint TMNT #8 however he would like to. (I think I might have a scan of this on my computer. I'll check and post it if I find it.)

It would actually be nice if Peter took this to heart and has scrapped plans to redo that issue. I think redoing the tones and letters for all of the books is insult enough, but to completely change an issue? Gimme a break.

[DrSpengler]

That's interesting. I was wondering why in all these years, Cerebus has only ever done TWO crossovers (one with the TMNT and one with Spawn).

Now I know.

[Roseangelo]

Ok, here (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/410761044_ad9648a1b2_o.gif) are the details as Dave wrote them. (Lemme know if you can actually see this; I don't actually want this in my flickr account, so I set it to private, but I think a direct link should still work.)

[DrSpengler]

Ok, here (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/410761044_ad9648a1b2_o.gif) are the details as Dave wrote them. (Lemme know if you can actually see this; I don't actually want this in my flickr account, so I set it to private, but I think a direct link should still work.)

Hey, thanks a ton for scanning and posting that. :)

Very interesting read, though entirely too complicated. But that's David Sim for you.

It seems not ever Sim-himself is sure why Laird is excising the original #8 and doesn't even seem to be sure whether Laird even likes him (though Sim seems to be cool with Eastman, these days).

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I found in this in the TMNT #16 letter colums...

"I have not read Dave's comments. I also have not chnaged my plans. Nothing I do is going to eliminate the original TMNT #8 from exsistence - it's just not going to be a part of the Mirage TMNT continuity from now on, and we won't be reprinting it. I don't believe I owe the fans anthing other than making as sure as I can that the comics I publish are worth the price on the cover - and I'm confidant that they are - otherwise, I wouldn't bother doing them. If someone really wants to see what the original TMNT #8 was all about, I'm sure they can dig one up on the collectable comics market - after all, we printed more than 100,000 copies of it. Not exactly "rare". And frankly, as fun as that story is, I don't see it as a key element in the ongoing story of the TMNT"

Looks like it wasn't out of spite.

[Roseangelo]

Looks like it wasn't out of spite.

But his explanation is a bunch of BS. He implies that a reprinting of that book would not be worth the cover price unless Cerebus was removed. Why the hell is that? I can't think of any reason other than spite to remove Cerebus.

It's not that any of us NEED TMNT #8 to be reprinted because OMG it's so hard to find, it's the principle of changing a story because 20 years later you decide you don't like it. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. I don't see Marvel going back and changing early issues of Spider-Man or X-Men or Fantastic Four and I'm sure there's plenty of material worthy of nit-picking and changing in those three series of comics alone, let alone every single other comic title. Or any book ever published. Lots of established authors are embarassed by their early work, but they don't go back and "fix" them, they move on and publish new work that people enjoy.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

But his explanation is a bunch of BS. He implies that a reprinting of that book would not be worth the cover price unless Cerebus was removed. Why the hell is that? I can't think of any reason other than spite to remove Cerebus.

It's not that any of us NEED TMNT #8 to be reprinted because OMG it's so hard to find, it's the principle of changing a story because 20 years later you decide you don't like it. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. I don't see Marvel going back and changing early issues of Spider-Man or X-Men or Fantastic Four and I'm sure there's plenty of material worthy of nit-picking and changing in those three series of comics alone, let alone every single other comic title. Or any book ever published. Lots of established authors are embarassed by their early work, but they don't go back and "fix" them, they move on and publish new work that people enjoy.

But still, he has every right to do it if he wants to. I don't see the point in removing Cerebus, but if he feels so strongly about it, then all power to him.

Remember, just because you have a problem with it, doesn't mean PL can't do it. I have the original issue 8, so I don't see any problem in him wanting to go back a change something, it's not like it's gonna drastically effect continuity, Cerebus didn't really do much for the story anyway.

And I also don't see the problem in him going back and retoning and lettering some of the old back issues. I don't see anyone really complaining when Disney remasters one of they're old movies for modern viewing, so whats the problem here?

[cormano]

Ok, here (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/175/410761044_ad9648a1b2_o.gif) are the details as Dave wrote them. (Lemme know if you can actually see this; I don't actually want this in my flickr account, so I set it to private, but I think a direct link should still work.)thanks for posting that, very interesting. i've never read cerebus, it's one of those things that i always think i need to read some day, but it's intimidating to start something that huge! i enjoyed tmnt #8 and honestly, i doubt mr laird will ever get around to redoing it, even if that is his intention.

[Roseangelo]

But still, he has every right to do it if he wants to. I don't see the point in removing Cerebus, but if he feels so strongly about it, then all power to him.

Remember, just because you have a problem with it, doesn't mean PL can't do it.

Oh, I'm fully aware of that. But just as he has the right to do it, I have the right to dislike it and voice my dislike. 8)

And I also don't see the problem in him going back and retoning and lettering some of the old back issues.

I wouldn't have an issue with this if relettering didn't involve rewriting the script, which it does. I see it as rewriting history, and I can't support that.

I don't see anyone really complaining when Disney remasters one of they're old movies for modern viewing, so whats the problem here?

Actually, there are people who complain about certain things they do change. Restoring a print of a movie to its original vibrance is a great thing to do, as it makes for more enjoyable viewing and preserves a piece of history. But when Disney released Cinderella on DVD recently, they changed the color of her ball gown and there were actually quite a few people upset with that.

And look at how George Lucas changed the original Star Wars trilogy and the outcry that caused. Enhancing the effects was great, but Han not shooting first sends people into fits. And while I can tolerate the changes made more than most avid Star Wars fans, I HATE that in the DVD release he put Hayden Christensen at the end of Return of the Jedi. It totally takes away from the fact that Anakin redeemed himself as old Sebastian Shaw.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

The way I see it is, if the changes do nothing to effect the story or characters, then I see no porblem. And removing Cerebus wouldn't change much, it would still be the same basic story.

But as for changing the script. I thought he was just going to redo the lettering, not change what they say. What is he gonna do, remove the profanity?

[Roseangelo]

But as for changing the script. I thought he was just going to redo the lettering, not change what they say. What is he gonna do, remove the profanity?

If you compare the PBBZ #1 reprint with any of the earlier #1 prints, you'll find a significant number of changes to the script.

Actually, gimme some time and I'll take some comparison pictures.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

If you compare the PBBZ #1 reprint with any of the earlier #1 prints, you'll find a significant number of changes to the script.

Actually, gimme some time and I'll take some comparison pictures.

By all means, go ahead.

[VaughnMichael]

Dave Sim (no 's' on the end) has some strict rules that he has imposed on himself when it comes to comic books, and Cerebus in general. One of these, as I understand it, involves not signing contracts. Publishing a cross-over comic without signing a piece of paper concerning it is apparently a rare and not so easy thing to do. But it ended up working out for the original publishing of #8 and the books that reprinted that issue.

I believe Peter's decision in removing Cerebus from things has to do with this and assuming that it would be either impossible or a pain in the butt to legally be able to reprint that issue. However, if you read the letters page of Cerebus #300, Dave Sim addresses this issue to Peter and basically gives him freedom to reprint TMNT #8 however he would like to. (I think I might have a scan of this on my computer. I'll check and post it if I find it.)

It would actually be nice if Peter took this to heart and has scrapped plans to redo that issue. I think redoing the tones and letters for all of the books is insult enough, but to completely change an issue? Gimme a break.
oi amen to you sister!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I just gotta ask you guys, is cleaning up some of the old issues really that bad? Really?

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

If all he planned to do with the comics was give them a cleaner look, I'd have no problem whatsoever with it. But as far as editing the content--- I'm not new to the turtle franchise, but I never read the comics when I was younger. Now I'm old enough to buy them myself and see what I missed. I'd hate to get a completely different comic from the one other fans have gotten back in the day. It's tweaking with people's memories...

That's how I see it.

[VaughnMichael]

I just gotta ask you guys, is cleaning up some of the old issues really that bad? Really?
dude he's doing allot more than that I'm ticked off because he's acting as half of tmnt's existance doesn't even exist to such a huge fan and lover of things tmnt it really is upseting. It's fine to say it doesn't belong in a mirage world but to go off and diss things and speak like you don't even give things credit for being some what good at all is mind blowing.
I'm sorry but the Image storys and damn even half the archies are better than the crap we got vol.4 of mirage honestly I'd actully take images wild take on tmnt anyday minus all the dissfigurations mind you.

[Ratchet]

It's fine to say it doesn't belong in a mirage world but to go off and diss things and speak like you don't even give things credit for being some what good at all is mind blowing.

What was dissed?

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

The way I see it is this.

A fan as every right to bitch and moan, that what a fan does. And it's how a creator knows they have a good property on their hands. But while I'm not saying you should like everything he does, you should at least respect his right to do it.

I know Peter has his reasons for doing what he's doing, I may not know what they are exactly, but I do know that he's doing what he sees as best for his property. And he has every right, becasue it's HIS property. Eastman sold his share, so now Laird calls the shots. It's not about money to man, and I'm sure he's not doing this to please 4 Kids or something, although it could be possible that 4 Kids is having him do this seeing as how some of the TMNT's fanbase are kids but thats a longshot, he doing what he feels is right. And as much as fans like to think it is, what he does with the property isn't up to us. It's up to him. As fans, it's our job to accept it, and either love it or bitch about it.

I can see why he would want to ignore parts of the franchise that he had little to nothing to do with, because that was someone else's vision, not his. And he doesn't want to dwell on someone elses work, he want's to do his own thing.

That's why I have nothing but respect for the man. He does what he wants to do with the book. He doesn't bend to anyone's demands, because he has a vision and he sticks with it. He has a story to tell, and you can either go along with is or get off the boat. I remeber this quote from Joss Whedon, "never give the fans what they want", and I think PL is someone who takes that to heart. To make demands is probably doing the worst thing you can do to a creator, taking his work from him and telling him what to do with his own creation.

Thats where I'mcoming from. I don't just see things from a fans perspective. I try to look at it from the creator's too. I just trust PL 100%. I may not always like everything he does, but I give him respect for doing what he feels he needs to do.

[Roseangelo]

Blahblahblah. Yes, I have full respect for Peter and the work he's done, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with everything that he does. And no, I don't expect my opinion to mean much to him (quite the opposite, really), but that's not reason enough for me to keep my mouth shut when there's something that I don't like. And I also don't consider it to be good practice to agree with a person 100% just because of who they are and what they're in charge of. Some people need a good kick in the butt every now and then.

What this boils down to for me is I see what Peter is doing to the comics as changing history, and I cannot agree with that in any form. There are countries that alter history in the text books they use to teach in their schools; granted that changing the contents of a comic book is a muchmuch less extreme, but I do consider it along the same lines.

Also, a friend of mine has voiced the thought that Peter could be doing this to take as much of Kevin's work out of the series as possible. I blew this off as rediculous when she first said it, but honestly, the more I look at the new version, the more I can't help but wonder if there's any truth to that. I know Kevin sold his share, but I think it sucks that Kevin's existence seems to be blown off at every opportunity. He's still co-creator dammit.

Ok, onto the comparisons between the original version of #1 and the new version... Dialogue changes can be found on nearly every page and similarly, all depth and detail in the toning has been lost. I'll make notes on the changes that jump out at me most.

Page 1
Original page 1 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg01.jpg) | New page 1 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/413275104_c3f787f5d0_o.jpg)
The shadows of the Purple Dragons has been completely lost on the wall behind the Turtles.

Pages 2-3
Original pages 2-3 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg0203.jpg) | New pages 2-3 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/413275868_c65a09a077_o.jpg)
From no background shading to background shading. You also have, "Eastman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja" going from black to white and "Turtles" going from toned to empty block letters. It's rather plain.

Pages 4-5
Original page 4 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg04.jpg), page 5 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg05.jpg) | New pages 4-5 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/179/413276515_06097f0c0c_o.jpg)
In the first panel there's a dialogue change from, "Scatter!" to "Blast 'em!" Just below that, "staff" is changed to "bo." On page 5 Raph now has a rectangular box of shading behind him and the middle panel on the right has lost all detail in the background.

Pages 6-7
Original page 6 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg06.jpg), page 7 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg07.jpg) | New pages 6-7 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/413276974_b449dad059_o.jpg)
On page 6, all background detail has been lost.

Pages 8-9
Original page 8 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg08.jpg), page 9 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg09.jpg) | New pages 8-9 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/128/413277448_4038b4f90f_o.jpg)
On the original page 8, the first panel shows that they're running on the ground, not just in ambiguous space. So much detail was lost on page 9; it's just sad.

Pages 10-11
Original page 10 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg10.jpg), page 11 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg11.jpg) | New pages 10-11 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/155/413277946_06dd65c7a9_o.jpg)
The first two panels of page 10 originally showed shadows on the wall. All shading in the third panel is lost. In the fourth panel Splinter is now surrounded by black instead of white. Their ninja skills were, "at their peak," now they're "near their peak." The last sentence on page 10 has been changed completely. The dialogue on page 11 has also been changed significantly and you can now only barely tell that there is a shadow of a person in the background of the last panel. Lots of lost detail in the background of the other panels.

Pages 12-13
Original page 12 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg12.jpg), page 13 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg13.jpg) | New pages 12-13 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/413278469_aa9e3fe3ae_o.jpg)
Again, lots of lost detail. The bottom panel of page 12 suffers most. You could originally see the paintings hanging behind Splinter. Some really curious dialogue changes throughout page 13. Almost seems like he's sanitizing it.

Pages 14-15
Original page 14 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg14.jpg), page 15 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg15.jpg) | New pages 14-15 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/125/413279011_c6a3700415_o.jpg)
Again, sooo much lost detail on both pages. More curious dialogue changes that feel like sanitizing.

Pages 16-17
Original page 16 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg16.jpg), page 17 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg17.jpg) | New pages 16-17 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/413279628_5c92ecf589_o.jpg)
Where did all the detail go? And what's with the added line about feral alley cats in the first panel of page 16? Also, in the middle of the page, "in the eyes" was removed, which sorta takes away the Daredevil connection. I really don't like how the second panel on page 17 was changed. The entire panel is now black and "glow" around Splinter is now obviously photoshopped. At the bottom of the page where the Turtles start to speak, the Turtles now say, "Pizza?", "Radical!", "Star Trek!", and "Moto Guzzi!" Star Trek and Moto Guzzi? Gimme a break. And I hate how the last panel has been changed.

Pages 18-19
Original page 18 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg18.jpg), page 19 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg19.jpg) | New pages 18-19 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/413280096_cb82be99bb_o.jpg)
Page 18 has pointless dialogue changes. Page 19, IMO, is one of the most classic pages in TMNT comic book history. There is SO much depth in the original, and now all of that depth is gone.

Pages 20-21
Original page 20 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg20.jpg), page 21 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg21.jpg) | New pages 20-21 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/127/413280483_5460b038fc_o.jpg)
Again, all the fantastic detail gone.

Pages 22-23
Original page 22 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg22.jpg), page 23 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg23.jpg) | New pages 22-23 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/413280905_e61d9e5d0e_o.jpg)
At this point I'm really just repeating myself. On page 23 the text of the note has been completely redone. I would consider this part of the art and not susceptible to lettering changes.

Pages 24-25
Original page 24 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg24.jpg), page 25 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg25.jpg) | New pages 24-25 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/128/413281381_4b1711510f_o.jpg)
The Turtles used to have visible eyes in the last panel of page 24.


Pages 26-27
Original page 26 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg26.jpg), page 27 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg27.jpg) | New pages 26-27 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/413281899_7439c47d13_o.jpg)
It's pages like page 27 where you can really notice how the change in lettering can take away from the intensity of what you are seeing. "Come face your DOOM!" just doesn't have the same effect in computer font. The lost detail continues to make me want to cry.

Pages 28-29
Original pages 28-29 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg2829.jpg) | New pages 28-29 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/150/413320473_32fc844843_o.jpg)
Another page where the lost detail just makes me sad.

(To be continued... I have to break this into two posts.)

[Roseangelo]

Pages 30-31
Original page 30 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg30.jpg), page 31 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg31.jpg) | New pages 30-31 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/413282564_09d6b1b968_o.jpg)
Same complaints.

Pages 32-33
Original pages 32 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg32.jpg), pages 33 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg33.jpg) | New pages 32-33 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/174/413283057_5f342dfc83_o.jpg)
There's no longer any blood in the first horizontal panel on page 32 (although there is still blood in the next panel down). Page 33 has an interesting dialogue change of "gaijin" to "kappa."

Pages 34-35
Original page 34 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg34.jpg), page 35 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg35.jpg) | New pages 34-35 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/123/413283523_e3c6cbfdb3_o.jpg)
Same old complaints.

Pages 36-37
Original page 36 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg36.jpg), page 37 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg37.jpg) | New pages 36-37 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/178/413284084_3f5c6ddf20_o.jpg)
Shredder no longer says, "HAI!!" in the second to last panel on page 36. On page 37, "katana" has been changed to "blade."

Pages 38-39
Original page 38 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg38.jpg), page 39 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg39.jpg) | New pages 38-39 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/413284663_2fafb02682_o.jpg)
In the last panel of page 38 you can't even tell anymore that there was an explosion. On page 39 a completely new dialogue balloon has been added, giving Donatello the line, "... and some tea..." At the top of the page, Michaelangelo now calls Leonardo, "Leo."

Page 40
Original page 40 (http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/one/pg40.jpg) | New page 40 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/413285291_541b0d9ee7_o.jpg)
This is another page that makes me especially sad that so much detail was lost. And I'm not sure why italics are suddenly used (Leonardo's opening narration did not use italics). (Gimme a break, I work as an editor and have to pay attention to things like italics.)


So overall, I think the thing that saddens me most is just how much detail was lost in the re-toning. They obviously put a lot of work into the original art and I don't know why you would want to erase it all with a computer.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

*Whew*, for a second there, you had me worried that the changes were radical(radical as in extreme). But they're not really that bad. I can see that he went in an, like I though, just cleaned it up. Made the drawings stand out more.

I have a reprint of issuse 1, 3rd print. When compared. I don't notice much of a difference. The drawings are lighter. Thats about it. The detail is still there.

Whats the problem?

[Roseangelo]

Just because you don't have a problem with it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have a problem with it. I've explained my issues and I'm not going to re-explain it.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I'm not saying you don't have a right to be pissed. Be pissed.

I just don't see the problem with the changes.

[VaughnMichael]

Also, a friend of mine has voiced the thought that Peter could be doing this to take as much of Kevin's work out of the series as possible. I blew this off as rediculous when she first said it, but honestly, the more I look at the new version, the more I can't help but wonder if there's any truth to that. I know Kevin sold his share, but I think it sucks that Kevin's existence seems to be blown off at every opportunity. He's still co-creator dammit.
I'm not the friend you're speaking of but this is exactly what was on my mind as well Rose and I am really starting to think it's true...I know if laird is reading this He'll get really mad but I always found Kevin to be the more creative of the 2 it really shows in the 2k3 show and volume 4.
Now I'm gonna go look at all of you're links and give my opinion.

[VaughnMichael]

*Whew*, for a second there, you had me worried that the changes were radical(radical as in extreme). But they're not really that bad. I can see that he went in an, like I though, just cleaned it up. Made the drawings stand out more.

I have a reprint of issuse 1, 3rd print. When compared. I don't notice much of a difference. The drawings are lighter. Thats about it. The detail is still there.

Whats the problem?

wow man I own an orignal copy of number one and all the reprints they have really messed up this issue...can't you see that?
He's actully doing more now than I thought he was...this is his thing I know but it's just so odd and seems pointless and a waste of time.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

wow man I own an orignal copy of number one and all the reprints they have really messed up this issue...can't you see that?
He's actully doing more now than I thought he was...this is his thing I know but it's just so odd and seems pointless and a waste of time.

There must be some good reason. But I really see no problem with the issue. All he did was clean it up some. He didn't take out anything, at least anything noticiable. At least he didn't replace all the guns and weapons with walkie talkies. And at least the Turtles still struck first.

I'm not the friend you're speaking of but this is exactly what was on my mind as well Rose and I am really starting to think it's true...I know if laird is reading this He'll get really mad but I always found Kevin to be the more creative of the 2 it really shows in the 2k3 show and volume 4.
Now I'm gonna go look at all of you're links and give my opinion.

If he was reading that, I doubt he'd really care. That's not the first time he's been accused of being the less talented. But he doesn't seem like the type of guy who would dwell on something like that and get really pissed. He'd listen to your opinion. And keep going with his work.

And to Rose: Do you really think he'd disrespect Eastman like that. Theres been no bad blood between the two. Maybe if he changed the title to Peter Laird's TMNT, but I can't see PL ever doing something as low as that.

[VaughnMichael]

There must be some good reason. But I really see no problem with the issue. All he did was clean it up some. He didn't take out anything, at least anything noticiable. At least he didn't replace all the guns and weapons with walkie talkies. And at least the Turtles still struck first.
true but I can see allot of people being ticked off about him changing words and taking things out...and using allot of photoshop over the art...it really takes away from it all as you can see.
Also allot of people hate when the turtles names are shortend.
don't see the reason for katana to now be called blade.?
Splinter does not need a photoshop glow around him...any person who uses photoshop for a job on a daily basis knows thats chease!
True he didn't give them walkie talkies thatd wuld be just silly.
I wouldn't mind if he just took out the colorfull language and left it at that i really wouldnt mind that doesnt bother me I know he wants kids to read the book.
Oh well I'll just pass on buying anything he re-makes and keep all my oldies close to my heart. :)
I'm off to dream land now hah & no not the one from the archie comics I wish!

If he was reading that, I doubt he'd really care. That's not the first time he's been accused of being the less talented. But he doesn't seem like the type of guy who would dwell on something like that and get really pissed. He'd listen to your opinion. And keep going with his work.

And to Rose: Do you really think he'd disrespect Eastman like that. Theres been no bad blood between the two. Maybe if he changed the title to Peter Laird's TMNT, but I can't see PL ever doing something as low as that.

I don't know man I'm a pretty good judge of character and he gives me that sort of attitude as a person.
And he says he doesnt care but even the strongest minded person hurts atleast a bit inside when you tell them some ones better than them.
I think lairds a great artist or well was he doesn't really do diddly squat anymore besides be a business man.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

G'night. And remember, it could be worse. He could have Jim Lawson redraw everything.

[VaughnMichael]

G'night. And remember, it could be worse. He could have Jim Lawson redraw everything.
argh geez man thanks now I'm gonna have nightmares hahaha.
Actully I'm no longer gonna rip on Jim's new art cause I think I've discoverd the prolem if you go to Eric Talbots website and look at his art and then look at Jim lawsons art you will notice something they would not look very well together would they now....hmm guess who's inking volume 4 and Jim's art.
yes none other than Eric who happens to be one of my all time fave tmnt artist as well as general art faves. But the 2 of them just look so bad together he really shouldnt be inking Jim's art Michael Dooney should be or even peter laird himself...or some one anyon who doesn't ink with such dark heavey lines.
ok goodnight

[Roseangelo]

If he was reading that, I doubt he'd really care. That's not the first time he's been accused of being the less talented. But he doesn't seem like the type of guy who would dwell on something like that and get really pissed. He'd listen to your opinion. And keep going with his work.

I don't know how he'd deal with such a statement, but from what I've seen, he really doesn't deal with critisism well. At best he'll tell you not to buy his comic book.

And to Rose: Do you really think he'd disrespect Eastman like that. Theres been no bad blood between the two. Maybe if he changed the title to Peter Laird's TMNT, but I can't see PL ever doing something as low as that.

I don't know where you've gotten the idea that there's no bad blood between the two. While each is incredibly respectful of the other in public, the two of them really do not get along anymore at all. Like I said, I wish I couldn't think this way, but it does still feel like he's trying to take as much of Kevin out of the whole thing as possible.

Actully I'm no longer gonna rip on Jim's new art cause I think I've discoverd the prolem if you go to Eric Talbots website and look at his art and then look at Jim lawsons art you will notice something they would not look very well together would they now....hmm guess who's inking volume 4 and Jim's art.
yes none other than Eric who happens to be one of my all time fave tmnt artist as well as general art faves. But the 2 of them just look so bad together he really shouldnt be inking Jim's art Michael Dooney should be or even peter laird himself...or some one anyon who doesn't ink with such dark heavey lines.

I love Eric Talbot's work and I also love his inks when combined with the pencils of certain artists, but I have to agree that Eric and Jim are not a good combination and that this team-up is probably partially responsible for the overwhelming dislike of the art in volume 4. There's a huge difference between the volume 4 work at the CaW & Vol. 2 work and I really like that older stuff. Although I also think that Jim has become lazy in his drawing. Not all of the volume 4 problems can be blamed on the inks, the inks just haven't helped things out.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I don't know how he'd deal with such a statement, but from what I've seen, he really doesn't deal with critisism well. At best he'll tell you not to buy his comic book.







I don't think it's that. I just don't think he cares about the criticisms.


I don't know where you've gotten the idea that there's no bad blood between the two. While each is incredibly respectful of the other in public, the two of them really do not get along anymore at all. Like I said, I wish I couldn't think this way, but it does still feel like he's trying to take as much of Kevin out of the whole thing as possible.

Am I missing something here? I know they had differing ideas on where the property should go, thats why Eastman left. But they split on respectful terms.

I don't expect they hang out together, but is there realy hostility?

[Roseangelo]

I don't expect they hang out together, but is there realy hostility?

No, I don't think there's hostility. I just have reason to believe that Peter wants the TMNT to be HIS property, with as little involvement from Kevin as possible. Present, furture, AND past.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

No, I don't think there's hostility. I just have reason to believe that Peter wants the TMNT to be HIS property, with as little involvement from Kevin as possible. Present, furture, AND past.

Well thats just ****ed up. Well like I said, it's hard for me to see anyone doing that, especially someone as humble as Laird, but what you say could be true.

Still, let's wait and see what he does from here.

[Lone Wolf]

For what it is worth, I am thankful to have an individual as passionate and dedicated to the TMNT as Peter Laird behind the franchise. When the chips were down, Laird was the impetus to bringing them back, and Kevin Eastman had no interest in having anything more to do with it. Lets not forget that.

Edit: Just now noticed your reply.

[Roseangelo]

...and Kevin Eastman had no interest in having anything more to do with it. Lets not forget that.

That's really not true. Kevin definitely still has interest in the TMNT. But at the time that he sold his share the franchise was doing nothing and if the franchise WERE to do anything, he and Peter would have to agree and approve whatever was to be done. That's not easy to do when you're not friends anymore (and you have differing points of view). It was really in the best interest of the franchise that one of them sell their share. With Kevin in LA and busy publishing Heavy Metal, it seems like a pretty common sense decision to me.

[Jester]

Rose, some of the pics are "unavaliable" :(

[Roseangelo]

Hmm... They should all be working. Can you be more specific about which ones you're having trouble with?

[Lone Wolf]

That's really not true. Kevin definitely still has interest in the TMNT. But at the time that he sold his share the franchise was doing nothing and if the franchise WERE to do anything, he and Peter would have to agree and approve whatever was to be done. That's not easy to do when you're not friends anymore (and you have differing points of view). It was really in the best interest of the franchise that one of them sell their share. With Kevin in LA and busy publishing Heavy Metal, it seems like a pretty common sense decision to me.

Oh I'm sure Kevin goes on things like Attack of the Show and talks about his interest in working on the TMNT property NOW, seeing as Laird has taken the initiative and had success in resuscitating the franchise. The bottom line is, Laird is the one that claims TMNT is the crowning creative achievement of his life, Laird is the one that took steps at bringing the TMNT back when "they were doing nothing" and Eastman was the one that was not interested and wanted to move on.

He also wrote and drew the ultra-violent and ultra-mediocre Bodycount and thought Venus the fifth female ninja turtle could be a good idea. Some people here aren't happy with some of Laird's decisions, and that is fine, but lets not whitewash Eastman's history with the TMNT okay?

One last point: IP owners go back and change the history of their franchises ALL THE TIME. Its called retconning. Superman's origin has been redone what, a half-dozen times? New editions of books are changed from previous editions all the time. Some people might not like it, but it is far from an unheard of occurrence in the world of storytelling, particularly in the medium of comic books.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Well, just to be fair, DC retconed it's entire continuity, more than once. And you gotta think one of the reasonsn they do this is to keep them fresh seeing as how most of the characters are 60-70 years old.

But I see where you're coming from.

[Kendamu]

He also wrote and drew the ultra-violent and ultra-mediocre Bodycount and thought Venus the fifth female ninja turtle could be a good idea. Some people here aren't happy with some of Laird's decisions, and that is fine, but lets not whitewash Eastman's history with the TMNT okay?

1) Bodycount was cool for what it was and it was only a four-issue miniseries that didn't affect the rest of the comics at all. Sorry it wasn't full of the depth that is Casey sitting around being worried about April while Gammeraph downs a few beers while watching TV. :lol:

2) Kevin would've never created Venus had Saban not reuqired a female Turtle for NT:NM to air. Though I do have to agree that Venus was a shi... err... crappy idea and I'm glad she got parodied in Vol. 3 and eventually retconned.

[Jester]

Kevin would've never created Venus had Saban not reuqired a female Turtle for NT:NM to air. Though I do have to agree that Venus was a shi... err... crappy idea and I'm glad she got parodied in Vol. 3 and eventually retconned.

Parodied in Vol 3....what you talkin' 'bout Snootch!

[Roseangelo]

Oh I'm sure Kevin goes on things like Attack of the Show and talks about his interest in working on the TMNT property NOW, seeing as Laird has taken the initiative and had success in resuscitating the franchise.

Are you referring to when he was on AOTS like two years ago? He doesn't do that for the purpose of talking TMNT; TMNT is going to come up in any interview he does because he's co-creator and most of the morons doing the interviewing are clueless about his lack of involvment now.

The bottom line is, Laird is the one that claims TMNT is the crowning creative achievement of his life, Laird is the one that took steps at bringing the TMNT back when "they were doing nothing" and Eastman was the one that was not interested and wanted to move on.

Dude, did you not read what I wrote? And Kevin bought Heavy Metal back in the 90s when TMNT was still going strong, not because they had fizzled away.

He also wrote and drew the ultra-violent and ultra-mediocre Bodycount

No, Simon Bisley drew Bodycount. That's the kind of story you're going to get when you've got Kevin and Biz working together; it's not supposed to be taken seriously.

and thought Venus the fifth female ninja turtle could be a good idea.

No, a female turtle was a requirement of the show getting on the air.

Some people here aren't happy with some of Laird's decisions, and that is fine, but lets not whitewash Eastman's history with the TMNT okay?

At least get your facts straight.

[Kendamu]

Parodied in Vol 3....what you talkin' 'bout Snootch!
I don't remember which issue but there was a page or two where the Turtles are on.. I think... a spaceship or something and Mikey walked out with what looked to be a female mutant turtle that he said he'd been making out with for a few minutes. Right afterwards she was revealed to be this sludgy thing that can morph itself into other shapes and it totally grossed Mikey out. It was some funny stuff!

[Jester]

I don't remember which issue but there was a page or two where the Turtles are on.. I think... a spaceship or something and Mikey walked out with what looked to be a female mutant turtle that he said he'd been making out with for a few minutes. Right afterwards she was revealed to be this sludgy thing that can morph itself into other shapes and it totally grossed Mikey out. It was some funny stuff!
Someone...find these pages...:P

[Lone Wolf]

Dude, did you not read what I wrote? And Kevin bought Heavy Metal back in the 90s when TMNT was still going strong, not because they had fizzled away.


Uhm, that furthers my point. He WASN'T INTERESTED IN TMNT, HE WANTED TO MOVE ON. You act like TMNT would magically continue and the involvement of this or that person is incidental. Without Laird, THERE WOULD BE NO NEW TMNT BECAUSE EASTMAN WASN'T INTERESTED.


No, Simon Bisley drew Bodycount. That's the kind of story you're going to get when you've got Kevin and Biz working together; it's not supposed to be taken seriously.


Great defense. Kind of like your defense of Eastman's walking away from TMNT. Excuses don't change the quality of his solo writing project that he DECIDED to put out there, just like how he DECIDED to agree to Sabans terms in putting TNM on the air. Speaking of which...



No, a female turtle was a requirement of the show getting on the air.
At least get your facts straight.


Yeah, notice I said COULD be a good idea. Laid never wanted to allow that abomination on the air, but check out interviews that deal with the production. Eastman thought it could be cool, Laird said no way. Facts are totally straight madam.

Perhaps your ability to ignore the basic points of my post has something to do with your apparent tendency to give Eastman every benefit of the doubt and Laird, the man that actually was interested in bringing back the TMNT and who has done so, none whatsoever.

[Roseangelo]

Ok, for whatever reason you seem to hate Kevin, so I'm not going to bother repeating what I've already said even though you obviously haven't paid attention.

I say what I say because I have spent time with Kevin and I can guarantee you that he has no lack of interest in the TMNT.

[Lone Wolf]

Ok, for whatever reason you seem to hate Kevin, so I'm not going to bother repeating what I've already said even though you obviously haven't paid attention.

I say what I say because I have spent time with Kevin and I can guarantee you that he has no lack of interest in the TMNT.

Uh huh. I think you say what you say because you not only like to "get your facts straight", but also like to make up your own in the form of conjecture.

Look, I hold absolutely no ill will towards Eastman. He created Casey Jones, one of my favorite characters, and put the "Teenage Ninja" in TMNT. From all accounts, he is an amiable guy and always eager to talk about TMNT with fans.

BUT you are putting way to much stock in psychological profiling and conjecture. Eastman saw the TMNT one way, Laird another. When they came to a fork in the road, Eastman handed the ball to Laird. Some people have criticisms, and now they have nothing but excuses for St. Eastman and nothing but denigration for Demon Laird.

I don't think you need to "repeat" anything. Your pseudo-argument that no argument is necessary because I "obviously hate" Eastman speaks volumes.
You can read souls; you are a psychological master that can see the motivations of all men's actions, thus explaining them away. The Shadow has nothing on you.

[VaughnMichael]

I love Eric Talbot's work and I also love his inks when combined with the pencils of certain artists, but I have to agree that Eric and Jim are not a good combination and that this team-up is probably partially responsible for the overwhelming dislike of the art in volume 4. There's a huge difference between the volume 4 work at the CaW & Vol. 2 work and I really like that older stuff. Although I also think that Jim has become lazy in his drawing. Not all of the volume 4 problems can be blamed on the inks, the inks just haven't helped things out.
heh I was just trying to be a bit nicer to Jim Eric is one of my fave tmnt artists aside from a.c. farely, and michael dooney.
Who inked his work in city at war though I wonder it sort of looks like michael dooney almost to me. I'm out of town on a lap top so sadly I don't have all my tmnt comics on me.
lets not whitewash Eastman's history with the TMNT okay?
We don't need to that's what Peter's doing.:lol:
Uhm, that furthers my point. He WASN'T INTERESTED IN TMNT, HE WANTED TO MOVE ON. You act like TMNT would magically continue and the involvement of this or that person is incidental. Without Laird, THERE WOULD BE NO NEW TMNT BECAUSE EASTMAN WASN'T INTERESTED.
ok dude seriously do you even know whats going on in this thread because we're talking about peter laird going back and changing past comic books that really dont need it besides perhaps some page touch ups not kevin eatsmans lack of intrest in the tmnt property.:|

Great defense. Kind of like your defense of Eastman's walking away from TMNT. Excuses don't change the quality of his solo writing project that he DECIDED to put out there, just like how he DECIDED to agree to Sabans terms in putting TNM on the air. Speaking of which...
ok seriously I like them both peter and kevin but allot of people have the right to voice there opinions on what he is doing and it's ok to think it's wrong.
Also Peter has as much say in the next mutation as kevin did so don't blame one without blaming the other...same goes for the image, archie, old toon and allot of other things the tmnt have done.
Back then untill 2k3 rolled around they both had been in charge and they both had to give the go ahead.
So not just any one person is to blame for what was venus even if laird says he didnt want her as you say he's the man for bringing tmnt out he and eastman are also the same ones who sold them out to fox in the 80's don't forget that if you really want to point fingers.
Frankly I say it's fine for Kevin to move on and Laird to stick to the turtles Laird has done other comics in the past and they didnt have the succes at all that tmnt dide so I could see why he would stay.
Eatman he's happy and has been taking care of heavy metal comics for some time.

[Roseangelo]

Who inked his work in city at war though I wonder it sort of looks like michael dooney almost to me. I'm out of town on a lap top so sadly I don't have all my tmnt comics on me.

It was a few different people, but none of them were Mirage regulars. Dunno whatever happened to them.

[VaughnMichael]

It was a few different people, but none of them were Mirage regulars. Dunno whatever happened to them.
odd really odd..I never really payed much attention to such things untill now at age 27. I was like 13 or something when all these comics came out lol

[Raven]

So now I'm reading that Peter wants to take out a part of history from the turtles which just happens to be one of my favorite issues from volume one?! Really theres no need for that, keep it the way it is. Hearing this just makes me even more mad about how he's been handling the turtles, as I've said with volume four I'm quite angry at how things are turning out.

I also happen to have the newest reprint of issue 1 with the new tones and stuff when I won in the art contest on the offical site and frankly I was quite mad at these changes. Sure he's cleaning up things but some pretty big artist things were tampered with, I know something like a shadow casted over some one dosent seem all that sigificant but to me that added something to the panel and helped play out the mini movie in my mind, but its almost like in this new reprint he's simplified it.

Which would be cool if thats how it looked from the start, but he's taking away and not in a good way.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I'm proud to be a huge geek and all, but sometimes even I have to say that sometimes fans can't react too strongly over the simplest of things.

Granted, for the most part changes can suck....hard, (I'm looking at you Lucas), but this is no big deal.

[Sanjuro]

So much hate in a thread. I don't even know what half of it is about just jumping in here.

But from what I read I have come to these conclusions.

1. Peter Laird can do whatever he pleases with the comic series....he OWNS IT. Picking the story arcs that are in cannon are crucial to the ongoing survival of the TMNT. MANY and I mean MANY of the TMNT: Vol 1 issues are far out there and don't progress the proper story that should be left in cannon. If they are preserved best kept in a compilation dedicated to the artist or author.

2. I think he has done a fantastic job on ongoing Tales of TMNT and TMNT Vol. 4. Neither series is a huge money maker and like he stated in the backpages of an issue he makes his money back on them but no profit. The sales of TMNT films, shows, figures are irrelevant. If I were him I would pull the plug on the comic and make as much money as possible. But he loves the characters and will continue to stretch the series as long as he enjoys doing them.

3. Kevin Eastman is not to blame or a scapegoat for TMNT:TNM. He did what he could to revive a dead horse and in the process he kicked the shell out of it. While I hated the show I give him credit for the attempt. As of today Eastman still takes pride in creating the TMNT and is very fond of them still. While he has a beautiful wife and his own projects his lack of time / dedication to working on TMNT full time is the reason he sold his half of the property. It also makes things much easier for Laird to accomplish what needs to be done without politics.

[Lone Wolf]

So much hate in a thread. I don't even know what half of it is about just jumping in here.

But from what I read I have come to these conclusions.

1. Peter Laird can do whatever he pleases with the comic series....he OWNS IT. Picking the story arcs that are in cannon are crucial to the ongoing survival of the TMNT. MANY and I mean MANY of the TMNT: Vol 1 issues are far out there and don't progress the proper story that should be left in cannon. If they are preserved best kept in a compilation dedicated to the artist or author.

2. I think he has done a fantastic job on ongoing Tales of TMNT and TMNT Vol. 4. Neither series is a huge money maker and like he stated in the backpages of an issue he makes his money back on them but no profit. The sales of TMNT films, shows, figures are irrelevant. If I were him I would pull the plug on the comic and make as much money as possible. But he loves the characters and will continue to stretch the series as long as he enjoys doing them.

3. Kevin Eastman is not to blame or a scapegoat for TMNT:TNM. He did what he could to revive a dead horse and in the process he kicked the shell out of it. While I hated the show I give him credit for the attempt. As of today Eastman still takes pride in creating the TMNT and is very fond of them still. While he has a beautiful wife and his own projects his lack of time / dedication to working on TMNT full time is the reason he sold his half of the property. It also makes things much easier for Laird to accomplish what needs to be done without politics.

Good post Sanjuro, I agree with all your points. I just want to clarify that I never blamed Eastman for the actual suckage of TNM, just for greenlighting it. Lets not act like TNM was the only hope for the infinite future of TMNT and Eastman just had to capitulate and get them back on the air in any shape or form.

I really don't hold Eastman in any disregard, I just am annoyed (perhaps disgusted in some cases) by the deification of Eastman and his history, while Laird is being called an uncreative "businessman, nothing more" who isn't doing what he thinks is best for the TMNT, just foaming at the mouth, grasping for more control as he unfeelingly throws fans off the cliff of doom and into the lake of fire. Some peoples attitudes towards Laird's being the freaking fountainhead of the TMNT for almost a decade is absolutely ridiculous.

Consider this: You hate the TNM, probably the worst licensed incarnation of the TMNT to reach the public, but you give credit to Eastman for the attempt. How many people on this forum are not giving Laird the same type of courtesy or benefit of the doubt?

[Jester]

I think the whole sainting of Eastman and the demonizing of Pete comes from the fact that he does own all of TMNT, and thus all the "bad" now seems to fall on his head, while Kevin is free to work on Heavy Metal and not have a care in the world about the TMNT (not saying that he doesn't, but it's not his primary responsibility). Had Kevin stayed on, yes they'd have had to hash out all the disagreements for sure, but they'd also have to both take the heat for the "bad". Kevin looks good now, because he really has nothing to look bad about. I think they are both just normal, perhaps very talented, dudes who came together and created something I love.
I guess what I'm saying is just this: Had this been the other way around and Kevin was full owner of TMNT, do you think he'd be vilified because of the direction he took the franchise?

*mutters* You just can't please those darned fan-people...

[Raven]

I'm just going to say I could care less as for whos to blame for what sucked and what didnt, all I care is about the now and whats happening with TMNT. I like Laired, I like Eastment but there only human and we've seen it countless times were a creator of a series has taken a risk in trying to the series in a new direction and failed horribly.

I'm only mad because the current arc Pete puts way to much sci-fi into it, and thats not why I like the TMNT. I love them because of the influence of japanese culture and so on. So far we have yet to see any of that in volume four.

Lets face it guys, when Pete and Kev worked together we got a fantastic blend of sci-fi and ninja action but when apart we get way over the extreme of one of those.

To tell you the truth I've enjoyed Tigerfogs online comic much more then Vol. 2 and 4 (see I hate more then just 4!)

Once they get things back on track I'll pick up a comic again.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I'm just going to say I could care less as for whos to blame for what sucked and what didnt, all I care is about the now and whats happening with TMNT. I like Laired, I like Eastment but there only human and we've seen it countless times were a creator of a series has taken a risk in trying to the series in a new direction and failed horribly.

I'm only mad because the current arc Pete puts way to much sci-fi into it, and thats not why I like the TMNT. I love them because of the influence of japanese culture and so on. So far we have yet to see any of that in volume four.

Lets face it guys, when Pete and Kev worked together we got a fantastic blend of sci-fi and ninja action but when apart we get way over the extreme of one of those.

To tell you the truth I've enjoyed Tigerfogs online comic much more then Vol. 2 and 4 (see I hate more then just 4!)

Once they get things back on track I'll pick up a comic again.


Influence of Japanese culture? There are just a bunch of ninjas, there was hardly any influence in the first volume.

Besides, now that I think about ti, it's no surprise that Kevin and Peter split. I don't think it's because of hostility, it's becasue they're two guys with two different styles. Eastman is very into the dark and gritty action, Laird is all about the sci-fi/fantasy approach. I'm surprised they made it work as long as they did. But, now that Eastman is free to express himself with Heavy Metal, Laird is free to express himself in TMNT.

[Roseangelo]

First of all, it was never my intention for this thread to get so intense, and since I feel mostly responsible for that, I'd like to appologize.

I would not classify Kevin as a "saint," as some have mentioned. But TNM did not go forward just on Kevin's green light; Peter had to give approval, too. Kevin was just more open to the whole thing than Peter ever was. And I have no ill will towards Kevin for selling his share because being partners with a person you're no longer friends with would not be a pleasant or comfortable situation.

What my whole convuluted opinion boils down to is that I think Peter has handled the franchise WONDERFULLY ever since he took full control. I have absolutely no complaints with what he's done business-wise. However, I just don't think he should be writing stories 100% by himself. He needs someone else to balance everything to keep it all from becoming about Star Trek, dinosaurs, and motorcycles.

Likewise, if Kevin were in complete control, he would probably need a similar balance to level off the amount of guns and babes.

During the glory days of volume 1, Kevin and Peter were each others' balance.

And I still don't like the altering of history. If he wanted to go back to volume 1 and "reinvent" it in a more modern style and change dialogue in that version, I would probably really enjoy that. But simply Photoshopping over the original art? I don't, and never will, like it.

And all of this has been a simple statement of opinion. I'm not going to debate anything; I'm done with that.

[Lone Wolf]

First of all, it was never my intention for this thread to get so intense, and since I feel mostly responsible for that, I'd like to appologize.

I would not classify Kevin as a "saint," as some have mentioned. But TNM did not go forward just on Kevin's green light; Peter had to give approval, too. Kevin was just more open to the whole thing than Peter ever was. And I have no ill will towards Kevin for selling his share because being partners with a person you're no longer friends with would not be a pleasant or comfortable situation.

What my whole convuluted opinion boils down to is that I think Peter has handled the franchise WONDERFULLY ever since he took full control. I have absolutely no complaints with what he's done business-wise. However, I just don't think he should be writing stories 100% by himself. He needs someone else to balance everything to keep it all from becoming about Star Trek, dinosaurs, and motorcycles.

Likewise, if Kevin were in complete control, he would probably need a similar balance to level off the amount of guns and babes.

During the glory days of volume 1, Kevin and Peter were each others' balance.

And I still don't like the altering of history. If he wanted to go back to volume 1 and "reinvent" it in a more modern style and change dialogue in that version, I would probably really enjoy that. But simply Photoshopping over the original art? I don't, and never will, like it.

And all of this has been a simple statement of opinion. I'm not going to debate anything; I'm done with that.

Fair enough, I respect your opinion. Besides, any gal with a Michelangelo avatar that has the gumption to stand up in a thread dominated by guys with Raphael avatars is okay in my book. :)

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

First of all, it was never my intention for this thread to get so intense, and since I feel mostly responsible for that, I'd like to appologize.

I would not classify Kevin as a "saint," as some have mentioned. But TNM did not go forward just on Kevin's green light; Peter had to give approval, too. Kevin was just more open to the whole thing than Peter ever was. And I have no ill will towards Kevin for selling his share because being partners with a person you're no longer friends with would not be a pleasant or comfortable situation.

What my whole convuluted opinion boils down to is that I think Peter has handled the franchise WONDERFULLY ever since he took full control. I have absolutely no complaints with what he's done business-wise. However, I just don't think he should be writing stories 100% by himself. He needs someone else to balance everything to keep it all from becoming about Star Trek, dinosaurs, and motorcycles.

Likewise, if Kevin were in complete control, he would probably need a similar balance to level off the amount of guns and babes.

During the glory days of volume 1, Kevin and Peter were each others' balance.

And I still don't like the altering of history. If he wanted to go back to volume 1 and "reinvent" it in a more modern style and change dialogue in that version, I would probably really enjoy that. But simply Photoshopping over the original art? I don't, and never will, like it.

And all of this has been a simple statement of opinion. I'm not going to debate anything; I'm done with that.

Noted. And I think you have some there, maybe Pete does need someone to balance him. But I doubt he'd want to share writting duties at this moment.

[Raven]

Influence of Japanese culture? There are just a bunch of ninjas, there was hardly any influence in the first volume.

Besides, now that I think about ti, it's no surprise that Kevin and Peter split. I don't think it's because of hostility, it's becasue they're two guys with two different styles. Eastman is very into the dark and gritty action, Laird is all about the sci-fi/fantasy approach. I'm surprised they made it work as long as they did. But, now that Eastman is free to express himself with Heavy Metal, Laird is free to express himself in TMNT.


I never said that it was a huge influence my friend but it is there, weather you can see it or not (take a look at the first issue for example)

Again theres a bit of it in there but now its all gone.....( I know I'm probably exagrating on the its gone part)

[Kendamu]

Noted. And I think you have some there, maybe Pete does need someone to balance him. But I doubt he'd want to share writting duties at this moment.
That's why I like Tales so much. It's creativity coming from different angles instead of just one guy. I like Vol. 4 a lot but I'll always like Tales more.

That, or I just still have a slight problem with Gammeraph.

[Spitfire]

Alright I don't care if it's his comic or not. He made it years ago when he wasn't a douche and it should remain un-tainted by his idiocy.

You make something like that and it belongs to the fans, not the creator. Changing it like that is like ramming a huge dick up my ass and acting like I'll take and accept anything and everything he does just because he made it.

NO I like TMNT because of what it is, not because of him and his jew motives. He just wants to make it more kid friendly so he can fatten his pockets with cash from all the kids he thinks will buy it.

If he pulled his head out of his ass for 2 seconds he would realize the comics are for older more mature people and NO kids read them. He's messing with his fanbase don't be zombies and follow him like the "brain injured" stereotypes people make us out to be.

[Ratchet]

Where the hell did that come from? That's one of the most rancid and offensive posts I've come across on this board.

The dude created it and now owns it completely. It's his! He can do what he wants with it. Doesn't mean you have to consume it like a ravenous freak that knows it's not going to be content with the meal served. Don't like it, don't buy it, buy Tales instead. At least then those who DO like it don't have to listen to garbage like what you just posted. "Jew" motives? You ought to be ashamed dude, but you won't be so there's not too much point in me saying that.

And changing it like what?! The 3rd arc of the original series was more whacked out sci-fi than what we're getting now, and the story is far more engrossing. Writing like that clearly isn't aimed at kids and I sincerely doubt that anyone is that twisted mentally that they would go to all the effort of writing a comic book, losing money on it's publication but continuing to do so anyway, AND financing a second book that does the same just to "mess with their fanbase" as you so ridiculously put it.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Alright I don't care if it's his comic or not. He made it years ago when he wasn't a douche and it should remain un-tainted by his idiocy.

You make something like that and it belongs to the fans, not the creator. Changing it like that is like ramming a huge dick up my ass and acting like I'll take and accept anything and everything he does just because he made it.

NO I like TMNT because of what it is, not because of him and his jew motives. He just wants to make it more kid friendly so he can fatten his pockets with cash from all the kids he thinks will buy it.

If he pulled his head out of his ass for 2 seconds he would realize the comics are for older more mature people and NO kids read them. He's messing with his fanbase don't be zombies and follow him like the "brain injured" stereotypes people make us out to be.


No dude, it his. Saying it belongs to the fans is something people say when a director goes back and changes old movies.

Did you create the TMNT, no. Did you provide the inspiration for TMNT, no. Did Kevin and/or Peter even consult you when they created the TMNT, no. So it's not your, it's not mine, it's not anone elses but Peter Laird's, like it or not.

And dude, he's retoning the books, not pussifing them and making them all colorful and cheery. Dude, comics aren't just for mature readers. TMNT has a wide fanbase, kids included. So naturally the comics aren't going to do anything that will turn off any part of the fanbase. The basic stories will all still be in tact, so I don't see the problem.

Look, the TMNT belong to Peter Laird, they're not your's, I don't see your name on the book. If you got a problem with the changes, then here's asimple solution, shut the **** up and don't read it, but don't act like you have final say in anything. Stop accusing him of erasing the legacies of anyone and being a dick.

This isn't just aimed at you Spitfire, it's aimed at alot of you.

[Spitfire]

No dude, it his. Saying it belongs to the fans is something people say when a director goes back and changes old movies.

So if people do it with movies it's bad, but with comic books it's totally okay to photoshop over them and add in new and lame dialog. That's great.

I didn't need to be there when it was created. You want to take **** from someone just because they made it then fine.

Your like the fans that accept the new Star Wars movies and the changes to the old ones because "Its his movie he can do what he wants with it" yeah he can do whatever the hell he wants with it but I don't need to take or accept it in the least. If I think what their doing is stupid I'm not going to pull punches just because of who he is.

Enjoy reading your censored little kid comic books, I'll track down the originals. I was holding out for these paper backs but when I found out what he was doing to them besides re-inking them I got pissed.

You think TMNT is laird? Let me tell you something, before he had TMNT in his pocket the comics were better. The series he didn't work on was one of the best and he dislikes it.

TMNT is Eastman and Laird, but from the looks of things Eastman is who made it what it was.

And changing it like what?! The 3rd arc of the original series was more whacked out sci-fi than what we're getting now, and the story is far more engrossing. Writing like that clearly isn't aimed at kids and I sincerely doubt that anyone is that twisted mentally that they would go to all the effort of writing a comic book, losing money on it's publication but continuing to do so anyway, AND financing a second book that does the same just to "mess with their fanbase" as you so ridiculously put it.
I think he thinks what he's doing is right and I think it's stupid. You can't handle my posts then do what you suggest I do and don't read them.

[VaughnMichael]

Where the hell did that come from? That's one of the most rancid and offensive posts I've come across on this board.

The dude created it and now owns it completely. It's his! He can do what he wants with it. Doesn't mean you have to consume it like a ravenous freak that knows it's not going to be content with the meal served. Don't like it, don't buy it, buy Tales instead. At least then those who DO like it don't have to listen to garbage like what you just posted. "Jew" motives? You ought to be ashamed dude, but you won't be so there's not too much point in me saying that.

And changing it like what?! The 3rd arc of the original series was more whacked out sci-fi than what we're getting now, and the story is far more engrossing. Writing like that clearly isn't aimed at kids and I sincerely doubt that anyone is that twisted mentally that they would go to all the effort of writing a comic book, losing money on it's publication but continuing to do so anyway, AND financing a second book that does the same just to "mess with their fanbase" as you so ridiculously put it.
wow it would help to read what people have been talking about in this 5 page thread before asuming some ones talking about vl. 4 so that leads me to believe you have doubts about vol.4 :lol:
He's talk about what Roseangelo and I have been talking about the love between laird and lawson and how they just are changing the hell out of mirages past comics. It's really hard to talk about things when you really dont know whats going on.
Spitfires choice of words may be crude but allot of what he says I've really started to believe about Peter Laird as of late and this is coming from some one who used to defend him constantly.
Dude, comics aren't just for mature readers. TMNT has a wide fanbase, kids included. So naturally the comics aren't going to do anything that will turn off any part of the fanbase. The basic stories will all still be in tact, so I don't see the problem.
I strongly dissagree with you Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Mirage Vol. 1 is hardly for children to say so is foolish. And sort of insulting to the series core fanbase.:|
Also what the problem is the fact that he and lawson need to knock off the love afair allready and quit with the motoguzzy crap and changing things they never said before. That art in the old comics is 100% fine it does not need to be made modern and f'ed up with cheesey photoshop tools.
Look, the TMNT belong to Peter Laird, they're not your's, I don't see your name on the book. If you got a problem with the changes, then here's asimple solution, shut the **** up and don't read it, but don't act like you have final say in anything. Stop accusing him of erasing the legacies of anyone and being a dick.
oh yeah I got this that proves otherwize! :P
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/Harmophious/01cover.jpg hahahaha

[OldSchooler]

Dude, who said anything about censoring them? Why don't you wait until we actually see what he's done before firing you're mouth off. We've had one reprint with changes that are so slight it makes your insane ranting petty as! Has the story been affected? NO! The only story being affected by the reprints is the damned Cerebus issue, because they can't/don't want to include Cerebus! Big deal! It's not as though he's a reccuring character in the TMNT universe.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

So if people do it with movies it's bad, but with comic books it's totally okay to photoshop over them and add in new and lame dialog. That's great.

I didn't need to be there when it was created. You want to take **** from someone just because they made it then fine.

I'm not taking **** form anyone, I'm respecting the creators decison. You know what respect is right? You must not if you have the nerve to say somehting this stupid.

Your like the fans that accept the new Star Wars movies and the changes to the old ones because "Its his movie he can do what he wants with it" yeah he can do whatever the hell he wants with it but I don't need to take or accept it in the least. If I think what their doing is stupid I'm not going to pull punches just because of who he is.

I'm nat saying don't complain about it. Complain all you want, it's not like it;s gonna change anything. If you got a problem with the changes, fine, but your acting like TMNT is your property and Laird is some outsider. Grow the **** up.

Enjoy reading your censored little kid comic books, I'll track down the originals. I was holding out for these paper backs but when I found out what he was doing to them besides re-inking them I got pissed.

Censored!?! Show me some hard evidence before you start accusing him. I read the redone TMNT 1, it's perfectly fine. I see nothin out of place, the action wasn't neutered. Where the **** do you get the idea he's censoring them? Your just looking for any excuse to hate on the guy.

You think TMNT is laird? Let me tell you something, before he had TMNT in his pocket the comics were better. The series he didn't work on was one of the best and he dislikes it.

Once again, you make no sense. Granted the books are less gritty since Laird got full control(but even thats debatable), but the basic formula is still in tact. And he had every right to dislike the old show. Those assholes that worked on it took HIS creation, turned it into a complete joke, and now thats how the public expects TMNT to be, a joke onto itself. He has every right to dislkike it. If someone took one of my comic creations and did this, I wouldn't be a fan either. So yeah, TMNT is laird, not Spitfire. He and Eastman created it, Laird owns the rights, now he can do what he wants to do. And all he's doing is correcting some dialouge and retoning it. Big freaking deal.

TMNT is Eastman and Laird, but from the looks of things Eastman is who made it what it was.

You are so full of crap I'm surprised you don't burst. Eastman brought the edge, Laird brought the imagination.



Spitfire you are such a assclown.

[VaughnMichael]

And all he's doing is correcting some dialouge
There is nothing to be corrected that's what people are getting pissed off about.
Eastman brought the edge, Laird brought the imagination.
I have to disagree with you they both brought imagination to the table what Laird brought was Sci-fi to the mix. Many other make up the turtles btw not just Kevin and people many people helped in the success of this franchise and I'm not talking about the fans I'm talking about artists and this isn't directed at you it's directed at anyone who forgets that.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

There is nothing to be corrected that's what people are getting pissed off about.

I have to disagree with you they both brought imagination to the table what Laird brought was Sci-fi to the mix. Many other make up the turtles btw not just Kevin and people many people helped in the success of this franchise and I'm not talking about the fans I'm talking about artists and this isn't directed at you it's directed at anyone who forgets that.

Well he's going back and corecting some spelling errors. Also, I think what he may be trying to do is make it so the dialouge fits the characters better. He could be fixing it so if when you read a characters dialouge, you could say "yeah thats what Mikey would say" or "yeah, I could definatley picture Don saying that".

[VaughnMichael]

Well he's going back and corecting some spelling errors. Also, I think what he may be trying to do is make it so the dialouge fits the characters better. He could be fixing it so if when you read a characters dialouge, you could say "yeah thats what Mikey would say" or "yeah, I could definatley picture Don saying that".
spelling error correction is fine and all but changing what they said before doesn't lay with me to well man. He really needs to stop with the jim lawson love so much I mean reallu motoguzzy the tmnt would never say that in a million years...star trek ok maybe but also sort of doubtfull.
I know it's me being nit picky but seriously it bugs me to no end I just worried he's gonna do allot more I've allready got the old comics even all the reprints.
So I'm not that worried about it being changed because what I loved is being changed but it's sort of like people won't get to enjoy the same thing I did growing up. It ment allot to me because I didn't even know they existed untill my uncle showed me my first mirage turtle comic and said this comics for big turtle fans and you know that was a huge growing point in my life having that happen.
You're right to say let's wait and see but I'd like some one to seriously ask laird why? and to see if he has plans to change more. It would also be nice if he'd give a reason answere for once instead of coming off as imature and snarky.:ohwell:

[FearlessLeader]

It would also be nice if he'd give a reason answere for once instead of coming off as imature and snarky.:ohwell:


oh yeah I got this that proves otherwize! :P
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/Harmophious/01cover.jpg hahahaha


Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black?

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

spelling error correction is fine and all but changing what they said before doesn't lay with me to well man. He really needs to stop with the jim lawson love so much I mean reallu motoguzzy the tmnt would never say that in a million years...star trek ok maybe but also sort of doubtfull.
I know it's me being nit picky but seriously it bugs me to no end I just worried he's gonna do allot more I've allready got the old comics even all the reprints.
So I'm not that worried about it being changed because what I loved is being changed but it's sort of like people won't get to enjoy the same thing I did growing up. It ment allot to me because I didn't even know they existed untill my uncle showed me my first mirage turtle comic and said this comics for big turtle fans and you know that was a huge growing point in my life having that happen.
You're right to say let's wait and see but I'd like some one to seriously ask laird why? and to see if he has plans to change more. It would also be nice if he'd give a reason answere for once instead of coming off as imature and snarky.:ohwell:

I wish Laird would do an interview. With all the stuff going on, he's been a little quiet (Enter Mikey: "Yeah, a little TOO quiet).

I just wan't to hear his side.

[VaughnMichael]

Isn't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black?
no it's me telling you to get a sense of humor.:roll:
I wish Laird would do an interview. With all the stuff going on, he's been a little quiet (Enter Mikey: "Yeah, a little TOO quiet).

I just wan't to hear his side.
I agree I'd like to see why he's doing whats he's doing seriously not being rude or anything.
I do have allot of respect for Laird but I have to say it feels that allot of the time he does care about money more than the turtles. But that's only some times like take fast forward into consideration.

[The Shelf]

I do have allot of respect for Laird but I have to say it feels that allot of the time he does care about money more than the turtles. But that's only some times like take fast forward into consideration.

Also, the Volume 4 comics. He supposedly lost money on every issue after issue 1, but he still kept up with it until issue 28 (and hopefully he'll continue once things settle down). No, I can't believe he's very concerned about money at all. I think he genuinely loves the turtles and wants to tell stories about them that he likes. At least... that's what I choose to believe! :D

I think people only think that he's interested in just the money because he doesn't always do things the way they would like, but that really doesn't make any sense because if he was only interested in money he'd do exactly what fans want.

I just sorta jumped into this conversation so forgive me if that was a little bit off-topic.

[Spitfire]

I'm not taking **** form anyone, I'm respecting the creators decison. You know what respect is right? You must not if you have the nerve to say somehting this stupid.
I don't have to respect anything. If someone does something stupid I can say they did. If you accept that then that's your deal. I don't need to state again that I won't.

I'm nat saying don't complain about it. Complain all you want, it's not like it;s gonna change anything. If you got a problem with the changes, fine, but your acting like TMNT is your property and Laird is some outsider. Grow the **** up.
No I'm acting like he's doing something stupid and I'm stating my feelings about it. Something you obviously can't handle.

Censored!?! Show me some hard evidence before you start accusing him. I read the redone TMNT 1, it's perfectly fine. I see nothin out of place, the action wasn't neutered. Where the **** do you get the idea he's censoring them? Your just looking for any excuse to hate on the guy.
I was told their being watered down, which is why I posted in the first place. I don't need excuses to hate the guy. I don't even hate the guy. I just hate what he's doing.

Once again, you make no sense. Granted the books are less gritty since Laird got full control(but even thats debatable), but the basic formula is still in tact. And he had every right to dislike the old show. Those assholes that worked on it took HIS creation, turned it into a complete joke, and now thats how the public expects TMNT to be, a joke onto itself. He has every right to dislkike it. If someone took one of my comic creations and did this, I wouldn't be a fan either. So yeah, TMNT is laird, not Spitfire. He and Eastman created it, Laird owns the rights, now he can do what he wants to do. And all he's doing is correcting some dialouge and retoning it. Big freaking deal.
I'm talking about the Archie comics series not the old toon...

You are so full of crap I'm surprised you don't burst. Eastman brought the edge, Laird brought the imagination.
They both made it together.

Spitfire you are such a assclown.
Now we are name calling. And you had the nerve to tell me to grow up. Take your own advice.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I don't have to respect anything. If someone does something stupid I can say they did. If you accept that then that's your deal. I don't need to state again that I won't.

Yes, you gotta respect it. Theres nothing you can do to change it anyway. You don't have to like it, but at least respect the creator's decision. I may not agree with some of the stuff Laird does, but I respect his right to do it

No I'm acting like he's doing something stupid and I'm stating my feelings about it. Something you obviously can't handle.

I can handle you hating it. It's that boneheaded comment of yours "TMNT belongs to fans", that I can't accept. Because there was so much **** stuffed into those 5 little words.

I was told their being watered down, which is why I posted in the first place. I don't need excuses to hate the guy. I don't even hate the guy. I just hate what he's doing.

Who told you? Unless it's someone from Mirage, not good enough.

I'm talking about the Archie comics series not the old toon...

So, does that make him a bad person, if he doesn't like The Archie series(I don't blame either, Mirage >> Archie).

They both made it together. All Laird did was make it into Star Trek.

Wow, your Sci-fi knowledge is really that limited? So it has aliens. So does almost every other comic book. The guy incorporates stuff he likes into the book, if you can't take it, then thats on you. You cna't expect him to incorporate only stuff you like. A good creator says F-U to the fans and handles the property they're way.

Now we are name calling. And you had the nerve to tell me to grow up. Take your own advice.

Already did. But after some of the crap you were spewing, you deserved it.

[Spitfire]

Alright last time I'm doing this cause were doing some hatchet burying here

Yes, you gotta respect it. Theres nothing you can do to change it anyway. You don't have to like it, but at least respect the creator's decision. I may not agree with some of the stuff Laird does, but I respect his right to do it
Yeah he's got the right to do whatever he wants, I know that. What I'm saying is if I want to call him stupid in so many words for doing it I can. Pretty simple, I think what he's doing is stupid so I call him stupid for it. Has nothing to do with respecting him, has to do with me thinking he's making a dumb choice and me saying so. I'm not going to make excuses for him just because he's a co-creator to my favorite franchise.

I can handle you hating it. It's that boneheaded comment of yours "TMNT belongs to fans", that I can't accept. Because there was so much **** stuffed into those 5 little words.
Well that's a matter of opinion. In my opinion TMNT belongs to the fans. Without fans where would Laird be? No where, same goes for anyone. Where would Stan Lee be without people to read his comics? Where would Lucas be without people to watch his movies? Where would Iron Maiden be without people to listen to their music? They wouldn't be comic artists, directors, and musicians that's for sure. Without fans their nothing. If you make a comic book and no one likes it you stop making it. TMNT was just supposed to be a joke that ended up becoming a huge thing. And now it has tons of fans. You treat the fans like **** just because you think you can makes me think your a douche or a jew like I called him earlier. I don't like the attitude some people get where they think they can do or say anything and the fans will accept it just because of who they are. Kerry King from Slayer is like that and I call him the same names.

Who told you? Unless it's someone from Mirage, not good enough.
Putrescent told me, and he's never wronged me before so I see no reason to think he started lying to me now.

So, does that make him a bad person, if he doesn't like The Archie series(I don't blame either, Mirage >> Archie).
That's all opinion, but alot of fans think the Archie series was one of the best*Next to Mirage of course* and Laird has stated he disliked it.

Wow, your Sci-fi knowledge is really that limited? So it has aliens. So does almost every other comic book. The guy incorporates stuff he likes into the book, if you can't take it, then thats on you. You cna't expect him to incorporate only stuff you like. A good creator says F-U to the fans and handles the property they're way.
Not limited at all I grew up watching every sci-fi movie and show known to man, my Dad is a big sci-fi geek. I couldn't go two weeks without having to see a something Star Trek, Battle Star, Outer Limits, X-files...you get the picture. He likes sci-fi fine my point was they both made the TMNT together. There's a whole story about it on the official site and I'm sure you read it. The Star Trek remake was mocking the fact that he added that as a line the turtles say when their babies.

Already did. But after some of the crap you were spewing, you deserved it.
As I always say it's better to make someone look stupid then to call them names. Name calling makes you look immature, as I did in my very first post, where if you apply a little brain power you can really get someone with some cleaver wording.

But it's all good I've been called way worse names then ass clown. That actually made me chuckle a little.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Alright last time I'm doing this cause were doing some hatchet burying here


Yeah he's got the right to do whatever he wants, I know that. What I'm saying is if I want to call him stupid in so many words for doing it I can. Pretty simple, I think what he's doing is stupid so I call him stupid for it. Has nothing to do with respecting him, has to do with me thinking he's making a dumb choice and me saying so. I'm not going to make excuses for him just because he's a co-creator to my favorite franchise.

Okay, noted.

Well that's a matter of opinion. In my opinion TMNT belongs to the fans. Without fans where would Laird be? No where, same goes for anyone. Where would Stan Lee be without people to read his comics? Where would Lucas be without people to watch his movies? Where would Iron Maiden be without people to listen to their music? They wouldn't be comic artists, directors, and musicians that's for sure. Without fans their nothing. If you make a comic book and no one likes it you stop making it. TMNT was just supposed to be a joke that ended up becoming a huge thing. And now it has tons of fans. You treat the fans like **** just because you think you can makes me think your a douche or a jew like I called him earlier. I don't like the attitude some people get where they think they can do or say anything and the fans will accept it just because of who they are. Kerry King from Slayer is like that and I call him the same names.

Yeah sure, the fans are improtant. But do the fans write the book? Do the fans draw it? Do the fans ink and letter it? Do the fans edit the book? Do the fans even hold the rights? No. So how does it belong to them?

Putrescent told me, and he's never wronged me before so I see no reason to think he started lying to me now.


That's all opinion, but alot of fans think the Archie series was one of the best*Next to Mirage of course* and Laird has stated he disliked it.


Not limited at all I grew up watching every sci-fi movie and show known to man, my Dad is a big sci-fi geek. I couldn't go two weeks without having to see a something Star Trek, Battle Star, Outer Limits, X-files...you get the picture. He likes sci-fi fine my point was they both made the TMNT together. There's a whole story about it on the official site and I'm sure you read it. The Star Trek remake was mocking the fact that he added that as a line the turtles say when their babies.


As I always say it's better to make someone look stupid then to call them names. Name calling makes you look immature, as I did in my very first post, where if you apply a little brain power you can really get someone with some cleaver wording.

But it's all good I've been called way worse names then ass clown. That actually made me chuckle a little.

I appologize for the name calling, but when I get pissed I just black out, and when I wake up, I've offended at least 3 different religions. :lol:

[VaughnMichael]

Yeah sure, the fans are improtant. But do the fans write the book? Do the fans draw it? Do the fans ink and letter it? Do the fans edit the book? Do the fans even hold the rights? No. So how does it belong to them?
No we don't but you do have to remember we are the one footing the bill get it...footing the bill ahhhhh wokka wokka!:lol:

[Spitfire]

I appologize for the name calling, but when I get pissed I just black out, and when I wake up, I've offended at least 3 different religions. :lol:

Hey I know how that is haha

Yeah sure, the fans are improtant. But do the fans write the book? Do the fans draw it? Do the fans ink and letter it? Do the fans edit the book? Do the fans even hold the rights? No. So how does it belong to them?
Well hell legally I don't own crap, but I explained in my post how it is we own it.

You got to be gentle with us fans, you piss us off to much you could lose us and then you got nothing. That's what I ment.

But I guess since I'm in the minority here Laird has nothing to worry about.

[The Shelf]

Hey I know how that is haha


Well hell legally I don't own crap, but I explained in my post how it is we own it.

You got to be gentle with us fans, you piss us off to much you could lose us and then you got nothing. That's what I ment.

But I guess since I'm in the minority here Laird has nothing to worry about.

I can certainly see where you're coming from, but in all honesty... I hate when writers tailor their stories just to please the fans. I feel that when that happens, the writer's own ingenuity has been tainted and I'm not getting the real thing. I think this happens a lot in more mainstream comics such as Marvel and DC, but Mirage seems untainted by this so far, and I want to keep it that way. So if Laird wants to change something or do something fans don't agree with, I'm just going to sit back and enjoy it whether I like it or not. And if it gets so bad that I can't stand it, then I'll just stop reading, but I'm not going to complain about it because, frankly, I can't. I've liked what he's given us so far, so if he does something I don't like, then I'll just have to be thankful for what he's done in the past and move on.

I hope that was at least semi-on-topic. I haven't read through this entire thread.

[Sparvid]

And dude, he's retoning the books, not pussifing them and making them all colorful and cheery.
Really? Because based on the examples earlier in the thread, it looked to me like the tones were simply removed, not re-done.

Now, in 9 times out of 10, I have no problem with giving a reprint a brand new coloring, or even adding a few details here and there, but I can't say that I get the point of simply removing various beautiful details... :ohwell:

I also flipped through my First Graphic Novels and noticed that they're re-lettered, but with a lettering style more fitting than the modern computer font in the newest reprint (and there doesn't seem to be any missing or changed words, to boot).

[Andrew NDB]

If all he planned to do with the comics was give them a cleaner look, I'd have no problem whatsoever with it.

I have a problem with it. It looks like ****. Have you seen the recent reprint of Vol. 1 #1 he redid? That's what he wants the whole Volume to look like now.

Scrapes out all of the duotones and replaces it with just a tad bit of barely-there computer quickie tones. Backgrounds, foreground stuff, even pupils in the reprint of #1 he's redone all just completely vanish, along with every ounce of grit the original duotones provided. It looks like he wants to leave all of Vol. 1 looking "Color-Open," I guess... which is fine, if he actually adds color, which he ain't gonna do.

Granted, Laird isn't traveling to all of our bedrooms and burning our original copies of TMNT Vol. 1, and it is his baby to do with as he pleases.

[Janus Prospero]

Granted, Laird isn't traveling to all of our bedrooms and burning our original copies of TMNT Vol. 1, and it is his baby to do with as he pleases.

Thanks a lot Andrew. Now I'm going to have nightmares.

I wouldn't mind some minor changes and corrections, but looking at some of the comparison images Rosey posted (thanks a ton dudette!) I'm not too happy with the loss of detail there. Like Andrew said, it looks like it's supposed to get colored, but it won't. That's my biggest gripe.

[DrSpengler]

I was rather indifferent until I saw those comparison pics (thanks Roseangelo). Now I can't believe how bland and ugly he's making the book. Taking away stuff like the Purple Dragon's shadows on the first page just robs the comic of atmosphere.

I'm glad I got my originals locked away where Laird can't get them.

Thanks a lot Andrew. Now I'm going to have nightmares.

"Shhhh! Did you hear that?"

"It sounds like...like...a Segway!"

"QUICK! HIDE THE COMICS!"

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Honestly, I looked at the comparisons and I still don't see the problem. They look fine.

[Janus Prospero]

Honestly, I looked at the comparisons and I still don't see the problem. They look fine.

Don't get me wrong dude. They still look good. It's just a personal preference thing.

Some people prefer the gray shading look, others like the stark black/white contrast. You should feel so lucky that you and Pete are on the same page. ;)

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Don't get me wrong dude. They still look good. It's just a personal preference thing.

Some people prefer the gray shading look, others like the stark black/white contrast. You should feel so lucky that you and Pete are on the same page. ;)

It's not that I condone constant changes of movies of comics or tv shows, but when it's something minor like this, I don't really mind.

[Fledermaus]

Part of what made the original comics so gorgeous in my opinion was HOW THEY WERE TONED. The feel was grungier, fuller. You can't **** all over that, just... replacing it with that cheap-charlie "tone" job. I can't see the logic in it. Why? Does anyone know why? To begin with, all this "fixing" of existing twenty-year old material is awful. It's one thing to add stuff in, perhaps for a special version. But detracting from the original material???? What the hell?

My one hope is that perhaps Roseangelo is completely wrong and Murphy (is he around) will come in and save the day and tell us that this is all BS and no one is insane enough to redo the original tones and of course that we know nothing since we don't work at Mirage. ;)

[VaughnMichael]

I'm sure it's not true and lord I hope it's not but it could be the editing of anything eastman related because it's all lairds now all his! muwhahahah!:dead:

[Andrew NDB]

"Shhhh! Did you hear that?"

"It sounds like...like...a Segway!"

"QUICK! HIDE THE COMICS!"

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/IMP/IMP176/INGREYPX0541.jpg

http://www.mikeystmnt.com/images/news/peter.jpg

Heeeeere's Peeeeter!!!

[Fledermaus]

I didn't mean to jump on the Let's-Flame-Peter-Laird bandwagon... but the retoning of old material -- I'm serious. This isn't permanent is it?

As for mistakes, that's part of what gives character to any body of artwork. You know, Raph holds his sai incorrectly in a lot of the old Mirage comics. What're they gonna do? Go back with white-out and re-ink every "mistake?" :-?

[The Shelf]

I didn't mean to jump on the Let's-Flame-Peter-Laird bandwagon... but the retoning of old material -- I'm serious. This isn't permanent is it?

As for mistakes, that's part of what gives character to any body of artwork. You know, Raph holds his sai incorrectly in a lot of the old Mirage comics. What're they gonna do? Go back with white-out and re-ink every "mistake?" :-?

Or worse yet, they could re-ink and re-tone your avatar. :o :lol:
You better run, Fledermaus, I can hear the axe a'chopping.

[Fledermaus]

Or worse yet, they could re-ink and re-tone your avatar. :o :lol:
You better run, Fledermaus, I can hear the axe a'chopping.

Theytheythey... you know. This is all so ambiguous. I'm just gonna email Dan Berger and get to the bottom of this.

Oh, and my avatar is safe. I alone posses the original inks since I drew it.

If anyone comes after my artwork with an axe, I'll come after the attacker with Super-Soaker filled with Clorox. And I will aim for their eyes.

[Andrew NDB]

Theytheythey... you know. This is all so ambiguous. I'm just gonna email Dan Berger and get to the bottom of this.

Already have. Laird is indeed retoning all of Vol. 1 (or at least the ones he considers canonical), and they'll all look exactly like his Vol. 1 #1 reprint with the rubbish tones.

But... it's not certain if he'll ever really get around to finishing it. He hasn't talked about it in some time.

[Fledermaus]

Already have. Laird is indeed retoning all of Vol. 1 (or at least the ones he considers canonical), and they'll all look exactly like his Vol. 1 #1 reprint with the rubbish tones.

But... it's not certain if he'll ever really get around to finishing it. He hasn't talked about it in some time.

And... what is to become of the originals -- which garnered so many fans of the TMNT comic in the first place?

I ask this because if you look at the comics that Dan has put up on the site, the toning is... unspoiled, from what I can tell.

[Roseangelo]

And... what is to become of the originals -- which garnered so many fans of the TMNT comic in the first place?

I believe the quote from Peter from one of the Vol. 4 books concerning redoing issue #8 without Cerebus was that there is no shortage of original #8s available and we're free to find one of those and read it if we choose. I would gather he would have a similar answer for all of Vol. 1 in general.

I ask this because if you look at the comics that Dan has put up on the site, the toning is... unspoiled, from what I can tell.

Yeah, I noticed this, too. And actually, I just linked to all of scans on ninjaturtles.com for the big comparison. I'm surprised that at least #1 isn't posted with the new "tones."

And as a general comment (I think I made this in another thread somewhere, too), have you seen the tones in all of the recent books? They're basically non-existant. Compare Vol. 4 #1 to Vol. 4 #28 and you'll see a stark contrast (which, honestly, does not work in Jim Lawson's favor). If you're patient enough to flip through all the books inbetween you'll see the gradual degradation of the amount and quality of the tones. It makes me wonder if Peter hit his head and one day and woke up thinking tones = BAD.

The extensive use of tones and shading in the upcoming Tales #36 is one reason why I'm looking forward to that book with more optimism than I've had for any other recent Mirage publication.

[Andrew NDB]

http://www.wrathrecords.co.uk/images/News/scared.jpg

Molly, I heard the big mean Mr. Laird is redoing all of my Volume 1 of TMNT, and he's coming here to burn our copies!

http://www.sussex.ac.uk/press_office/bulletin/08apr05/images/scaredchild.jpg

I've heard the same thing... Joey, did you hear that noise???

http://www.ninjaturtlesempire.com/shining1.jpg

Rahhhh!!! I'm comin' to take your old comics away, tones and all!!!

http://www.ninjaturtlesempire.com/shining2.jpg

Heeeeereee's Peeeter!!! Make with the original copies of Volume 1 immediately!

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Part of what made the original comics so gorgeous in my opinion was HOW THEY WERE TONED. The feel was grungier, fuller. You can't **** all over that, just... replacing it with that cheap-charlie "tone" job. I can't see the logic in it. Why? Does anyone know why? To begin with, all this "fixing" of existing twenty-year old material is awful. It's one thing to add stuff in, perhaps for a special version. But detracting from the original material???? What the hell?

My one hope is that perhaps Roseangelo is completely wrong and Murphy (is he around) will come in and save the day and tell us that this is all BS and no one is insane enough to redo the original tones and of course that we know nothing since we don't work at Mirage. ;)

Honestly, I don't see how a grungy look affects the story. And that's all I care about, the story.

[Fledermaus]

Yeah man. Totally. I mean, **** art. Who cares about that visual crap anyways?... :roll:

The comic book is primarily a visual medium. True, story is the backbone, but the art is what turns that story into a GRAPHIC novel. If all you care about is a story and don't give a rip for accompanying images, go find yourself a Levitz Paradigm and drool over that for a few hours.

Novels are great, too. So are radio plays. :)

[DrSpengler]

Yeah, the basic formula for a comic is pretty simple.

"Combine equal parts art and story."

Comics contain artwork. If the artwork is BAD it can ruin a comic. If you don't think artwork is important when it comes to comic books, then you really don't understand comic books at all.

[Rooish]

You treat the fans like **** just because you think you can makes me think your a douche or a jew like I called him earlier.

Uh, if I were a moderator I'd give you a warning for that ...

And here (http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/tangents.html)is a reason why Pete might dislike Dave Sim (sorry for the URL of the site that hosts it) ...

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, the basic formula for a comic is pretty simple.

"Combine equal parts art and story."

Comics contain artwork. If the artwork is BAD it can ruin a comic. If you don't think artwork is important when it comes to comic books, then you really don't understand comic books at all.

I'd be inclined to agree.

[VaughnMichael]

Uh, if I were a moderator I'd give you a warning for that ...

And here (http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/tangents.html)is a reason why Pete might dislike Dave Sim (sorry for the URL of the site that hosts it) ...
um ok I just skimmed over that really annoyingly long rant and didn't see mention of ninja turtles, mirage, or anyone related to mirage...so why would Peter Laird get angry and hate Dave Sim over his comments over feminists?
I mean unless I missed something but I don't have time to sit and read that long as rambling of his..:dead:

[Fledermaus]

My my... *reads over Mr. Sim's article*

I think this pretty much explains it. However, the way it looks now is that Laird chose to censor twenty year old work for political reasons. I mean I understand if Laird disagrees with the man -- I disagree with him. I think he is logically and morally wrong, at least in several issues he mentions. But even so, I don't believe that's enough incentive for censoring original material after twenty years. Were there strong anti-feminist elements in issue 8? :-?

EDIT: Actually... censoring artwork, especially after it's existed this long, is just as wrong as anything Mr. Sim has spouted off in his personal politics rant.

[VaughnMichael]

My my... *reads over Mr. Sim's article*

I think this pretty much explains it. However, the way it looks now is that Laird chose to censor twenty year old work for political reasons. I mean I understand if Laird disagrees with the man -- I disagree with him. I think he is logically and morally wrong, at least in several issues he mentions. But even so, I don't believe that's enough incentive for censoring original material after twenty years. Were there strong anti-feminist elements in issue 8? :-?
um why in the world would peter laird care about that in the first place he's never even mentioned womens rights I don't think he has anyways like ever.
Next excuse please:sleep:

[Rooish]

No, no, I can just see Laird, who's pretty "progressive," holding a grudge against Dave for all that ... he's had other, uh, controversial viewpoints, besides the feminist thing.

Cerebus is a damn fine comic though ...

[VaughnMichael]

No, no, I can just see Laird, who's pretty "progressive," holding a grudge against Dave for all that ... he's had other, uh, controversial viewpoints, besides the feminist thing.

Cerebus is a damn fine comic though ...
Well he could but I really don't think that's the reason...I mean I've never even read peter talking about women before let alone feminism...so who knows I mean it's peters life. *shruggs*...
And yeah it's pretty good I agree I still like old mirage tmnt allot more though.

[Fledermaus]

Yeah. Dave is also an anti-commie by the looks of it. :roll: I think that did it. Some people get really really tense about those subjects, just like capitalists might shut out people who are anti-capitalist.

And let us not get into personal arguments on politics. Please? :embarass:

[DrSpengler]

Removing Cerebus from TMNT #8 just because Laird disagrees with Sim's political views seems like the definition of "petty".

But then, we're all just making assumptions here, so for all we know Sim could have run over Laird's dog or slugged him in the face at a kegger and THAT might be why he's cutting all ties with the man. We really don't have much of a clue.

[VaughnMichael]

Removing Cerebus from TMNT #8 just because Laird disagrees with Sim's political views seems like the definition of "petty".

But then, we're all just making assumptions here, so for all we know Sim could have run over Laird's dog or slugged him in the face at a kegger and THAT might be why he's cutting all ties with the man. We really don't have much of a clue.
now that I want to see! some one get fox on the phone!:lol:

[Roseangelo]

Yeah, I think jumping to the conclusion that his reasoning for removing Cerebus is politically driven is jumping a bit too far. He might just think it's better without Cerebus.

Why is he retoning the whole darn thing? Best I can tell, because he thinks it's better that way. He doesn't need anymore reason than that.

Although I still think both changes are crazy and stupid and petty and insulting and... well, you get the idea.

[Fledermaus]

Okay... so by now we "know" certain things are happening with the old comics. But no one "knows" why a character is being removed and why beautiful tones are being scrapped in favor of... cheaper-to-print comics?:ohwell: Has anyone bothered asking?

EDIT: And you know, still... regardless of the why, this still blows. I want to know why because I'm curious and want to try to understand what's going on. Not because I think it will make me change my mind and say OOOOOOhhhhhhh. Okay then. Hack away! :)

[VaughnMichael]

Okay... so by now we "know" certain things are happening with the old comics. But no one knows why a character is being removed and why beautiful tones are being scrapped in favor of... cheaper-to-print comics?:ohwell: Has anyone bothered asking?
Nope and I don't think we will get a straight forward answere...personally myself and allot of others think it has something to do with Kevin Eastman and Peter but who really knows I'm not saying it's fact here people but hell it very well could be.
Or it could just be as simple as that Peter thinks computers are grand and snazy and the way to go.:tthumbsu: me I think.:tthumbsd:

[Roseangelo]

Or it could just be as simple as that Peter thinks computers are grand and snazy and the way to go.:tthumbsu:

It is honestly one of my fears that he figured out how to work Photoshop and decided everything would be better if everything was Photoshopped.

[Fledermaus]

It is honestly one of my fears that he figured out how to work Photoshop and decided everything would be better if everything was Photoshopped.

Hey. You can still get beautiful tones in Photoshop if you use the right brushes/opacities.

How is Mirage doing, financially, these days? Because cheaper-to-print comics might explain, though not excuse, the mutilation of twenty-year-old artwork. :)

[VaughnMichael]

It is honestly one of my fears that he figured out how to work Photoshop and decided everything would be better if everything was Photoshopped.
It's ok we can go shake in fear in a corner together haha.
I love Photoshop when used correctly here it's not it's like when I see some ones myspace or deviantart page and they have Photoshop art with lens flares and stuff like that does anyone honestly realize how bad that is to do that it's so cheesy and frowned upon.
Hey. You can still get beautiful tones in Photoshop if you use the right brushes/opacities.

How is Mirage doing, financially these days? Because cheaper-to-print comics might explain, though not excuse, the mutilation of twenty-year-old artwork. :)
I agree photoshop is wonderfull if you know what your doing an aren't some amiture who thinks you know what your doing.
And I'm not sure but they always say they aren't doing well with the comics anyways...but if anything Peter doing all of that would only cost more money and time lots of time.

[Roseangelo]

Hey. You can still get beautiful tones in Photoshop if you use the right brushes/opacities.

Oh totally. Fantastic things can be done with Photoshop, but Peter's not doing it.

How is Mirage doing, financially, these days? Because cheaper-to-print comics might explain, though not excuse, the mutilation of twenty-year-old artwork. :)

As a publisher, apparently not very well. They were losing money on Vol. 4; I dunno how well Tales has been doing, but I think the movie might have boosted sales enough to at least break even with recent issues. But Peter said repeatedly that making a profit with the books wasn't his main concern.

My rant about Mirage is a completely different thread... and that would be here (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=19653).

[Rooish]

Now that I've looked at the NEW AND IMPROVED Volume 1 Issue 1, I'm really disappointed with him deleting all the detailed, hand-done shading. That was beautiful, atmospheric stuff. Now it's just ****ing computer generated dots. The comic has lost a lot of mood.

[Fledermaus]

Well, I hope that if making a profit is not a main concern, that at least there is a plan B. Money. Artists hate it, and we certainly don't want it to become the purpose of our existence. But without it, we have no "patron" to finance our creative explorations.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Yeah man. Totally. I mean, **** art. Who cares about that visual crap anyways?... :roll:

The comic book is primarily a visual medium. True, story is the backbone, but the art is what turns that story into a GRAPHIC novel. If all you care about is a story and don't give a rip for accompanying images, go find yourself a Levitz Paradigm and drool over that for a few hours.

Novels are great, too. So are radio plays. :)

I'm not saying the art isn't important, I'm saying minor changes like these don't matter.

[VaughnMichael]

I'm not saying the art isn't important, I'm saying minor changes like these don't matter.
well not to you but as you can see it matters to allot of us.:ohwell:
It's a big reason why allot of people are buying up all the orig. release on ebay right now. I'm pretty sure that's exactly why Spitfire spent a crap loa dof money on the entire series on ebay.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

well not to you but as you can see it matters to allot of us.:ohwell:
It's a big reason why allot of people are buying up all the orig. release on ebay right now. I'm pretty sure that's exactly why Spitfire spent a crap loa dof money on the entire series on ebay.

Why is it so important that it must have that grainy dirty look to it? I admit, it did make it look pretty cool, but the look now isn't what i would consider eye-rapingly bad. It's still fine.

I find it odd that people have been demanding trades of volume 1, and when were about to get them, nobody will get them because of the cleaned up look.

[Roseangelo]

I find it odd that people have been demanding trades of volume 1, and when were about to get them, nobody will get them because of the cleaned up look.

But we're not about to get trades of volume 1. As far as we know Peter will never finish this project and we will never get trades of volume 1 because of that. And that alone is beyond lame.

I don't recall anyone saying they wouldn't buy it, either. Although it'd be pointless to if you had all the old issues. I would only get them for my collection.

[VaughnMichael]

Why is it so important that it must have that grainy dirty look to it? I admit, it did make it look pretty cool, but the look now isn't what i would consider eye-rapingly bad. It's still fine.

I find it odd that people have been demanding trades of volume 1, and when were about to get them, nobody will get them because of the cleaned up look.
because it was fine the way it was why waste your own personal time and money to change something that didn't need to be re-tooled in the first place.
It all just seems a bit senseless and pointless to me when Peter could be doing so many other more important things with his time.
People want trades of the comics as they had been for all these years because they where hard to find for the most part this would make them very easy to get.
I don't really see anyone saying they aren't going to get what peter brings out I will but I can tell you right now it's not going to be something I enjoy.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

because it was fine the way it was why waste your own personal time and money to change something that didn't need to be re-tooled in the first place.
It all just seems a bit senseless and pointless to me when Peter could be doing so many other more important things with his time.
People want trades of the comics as they had been for all these years because they where hard to find for the most part this would make them very easy to get.
I don't really see anyone saying they aren't going to get what peter brings out I will but I can tell you right now it's not going to be something I enjoy.

Then why get it at all. I'm a big Sonic fan, but I'm in no rush to pick up Sonic the Hedgehog just to support the franchise.

[VaughnMichael]

Then why get it at all. I'm a big Sonic fan, but I'm in no rush to pick up Sonic the Hedgehog just to support the franchise.
well to have it I know peter hates that but I don't live to make him happy ;)
I like having all tmnt printed comics.
You never know when something new may get added thats why I always enjoyed the old mirage reprints of the comics.

[TristanHuwJones]

because it was fine the way it was why waste your own personal time and money to change something that didn't need to be re-tooled in the first place.
It all just seems a bit senseless and pointless to me when Peter could be doing so many other more important things with his time.
People want trades of the comics as they had been for all these years because they where hard to find for the most part this would make them very easy to get.
I don't really see anyone saying they aren't going to get what peter brings out I will but I can tell you right now it's not going to be something I enjoy.

I think your point of view as a fan is valid, but what about all the people who haven't read those first issues? There's a huge amount of people outside of the 'dedicated' fanbase that want these books too (trust me, they number of people who've asked outside of this community still amazes me). But because they haven't had the exposure to the originals like you or me, they're not going to know any different, or probably care all that much either, so long as they're getting the story.

The other thing is that these books are important to Pete, but his priorities are his own, and no one can really speak for him when it comes to this but the man himself.

[Roseangelo]

I think your point of view as a fan is valid, but what about all the people who haven't read those first issues? There's a huge amount of people outside of the 'dedicated' fanbase that want these books too (trust me, they number of people who've asked outside of this community still amazes me). But because they haven't had the exposure to the originals like you or me, they're not going to know any different, or probably care all that much either, so long as they're getting the story.

I agree that the general public isn't going to care or notice what changes have been made. But is this (eventual) book even going to be published for the general public? As it stands, if you want any of Mirage's new TPBs you basically have to order from Panel to Panel, Mirage, or hope that your comic shop decided to order it. And if you're getting it from any of those places, you're already a fan.

And why delay the publication of a book that is obviously in demand, possibly indefinitely, because you insist on altering existing work? I think that's what baffles me the most. Volume 1 TPBs should have been on store shelves a month before the movie's release. Republishing the old version now doesn't have to stop the publishing of the reworked version later.

[VaughnMichael]

I think your point of view as a fan is valid, but what about all the people who haven't read those first issues? There's a huge amount of people outside of the 'dedicated' fanbase that want these books too (trust me, they number of people who've asked outside of this community still amazes me). But because they haven't had the exposure to the originals like you or me, they're not going to know any different, or probably care all that much either, so long as they're getting the story.

The other thing is that these books are important to Pete, but his priorities are his own, and no one can really speak for him when it comes to this but the man himself.
Ok if it's so important to get them out just bring them out as is already if that would make the excuse of people never seeing them die any faster.
And what about the people who haven't read the first issues sure they may not know but why denie them access to what has already been known as the history of the turtles.
Mark my words art is not the only thing he's changing and a changing he will go it's quite annoying to think that the God of tmntdom can come along and just change whatever he pleases at will it's quite scary actually if you think about it.
I'm glad the real creator of our universe can't do that I'm glad I'm not just some inked out character in a book that my creator can just do over as he or she sees fit.

[Fledermaus]

I'd say all those people who haven't read the first issues (like ME) are missing out big time.

Bill Watterson should totally remove the color from his Sunday Strips, for example. What? You still have the laughs. :-?

[Ratchet]

Ok if it's so important to get them out just bring them out as is already if that would make the excuse of people never seeing them die any faster.
And what about the people who haven't read the first issues sure they may not know but why denie them access to what has already been known as the history of the turtles.
Mark my words art is not the only thing he's changing and a changing he will go it's quite annoying to think that the God of tmntdom can come along and just change whatever he pleases at will it's quite scary actually if you think about it.
I'm glad the real creator of our universe can't do that I'm glad I'm not just some inked out character in a book that my creator can just do over as he or she sees fit.

I think he means that they're of personal importance to Laird himself. I seem to recall him saying that when he first mentioned it in the letters section of his own book too.

As he said, do you really think the public is going to care? If they want the stories, they'll get the stories, sans maybe one or two words that have been updated or changed slightly. The STORIES will be the same! And I wouldn't be so quick to make assumptions about what people know about the turtles. I see it time and time again, people coming here thinking that everything came from the original toon, with no knowledge of the comic book whatsoever. Even friends IN THE INDUSTRY know **** all about them outside of the movie and the cartoons! If you were to tell someone that the Shredder is killed in the first issue of the comics, I guarantee you the reaction would be the same time and time again.

Dude, your creator could be changing things as we speak. How would you know? He could have you slated down as winning a million dollars in a lottery prize three years from now, but has decided "No, I have a better idea..." and changed that to something else. And if the real creator of our universe doesn't just come along and change things, then what is evolution?

[Fledermaus]

I think he means that they're of personal importance to Laird himself. I seem to recall him saying that when he first mentioned it in the letters section of his own book too.

As he said, do you really think the public is going to care? If they want the stories, they'll get the stories, sans maybe one or two words that have been updated or changed slightly. The STORIES will be the same! And I wouldn't be so quick to make assumptions about what people know about the turtles. I see it time and time again, people coming here thinking that everything came from the original toon, with no knowledge of the comic book whatsoever. Even friends IN THE INDUSTRY know **** all about them outside of the movie and the cartoons! If you were to tell someone that the Shredder is killed in the first issue of the comics, I guarantee you the reaction would be the same time and time again.

Dude, your creator could be changing things as we speak. How would you know? He could have you slated down as winning a million dollars in a lottery prize three years from now, but has decided "No, I have a better idea..." and changed that to something else. And if the real creator of our universe doesn't just come along and change things, then what is evolution?

Actually, the way things work in this dimension -- God doesn't go back and change the past. He changes the future. Laird is changing the past.

[VaughnMichael]

Dude, your creator could be changing things as we speak. How would you know? He could have you slated down as winning a million dollars in a lottery prize three years from now, but has decided "No, I have a better idea..." and changed that to something else. And if the real creator of our universe doesn't just come along and change things, then what is evolution?
A Theory & as you can see I'm not the only person who has a problem with this so I'll kindly ask you guys as usual to stop singling me out thanks.

[Andrew NDB]

At the end of the day, it's Peter's book. His intellectual property. He can do whatever he wants with it, and who are we to say, "Yo Pete, this ain't right!"

Would you or I go about things differently? Certainly. But this is the guy keeping it alive. You like Tales Volume 2 better than TMNT Volume 4? There wouldn't be a Tales Volume 2 if not for Pete.

[Roseangelo]

who are we to say, "Yo Pete, this ain't right!"

Uh, you did three pages ago. And you posted some pretty extreme and insulting pictures two pages ago.

[Andrew NDB]

Uh, you did three pages ago. And you posted some pretty extreme and insulting pictures two pages ago.

My fun little satire? If you read between the lines, I'm kind of mocking the sort of militant anti-Laird train of thought about the re-edits of Volume 1.

Hey, if it were up to me, if I had the rights to TMNT, I wouldn't be screwing with the tones. Far from it. But I'm not, and I give Laird his due.

[Spitfire]

I personally can't wait till Mirage releases their new line of coloring books. I always wanted coloring books in the Mirage style.

[VaughnMichael]

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha:lol:

[Sparvid]

At the end of the day, it's Peter's book. His intellectual property. He can do whatever he wants with it, and who are we to say, "Yo Pete, this ain't right!"

I'm more like, "Hey, Pete! See this money that I was planning on spending on the upcoming reprints, even though I own the old TPBs? Well, I have no interest of the un-toned versions, so I'm going to go ahead and spend it on something else."

Hmmm, I wonder if they'll re-release BTAS DVDs with the painted backgrounds replaced with solid blacks someday..?

[DrSpengler]

I'm more like, "Hey, Pete! See this money that I was planning on spending on the upcoming reprints, even though I own the old TPBs? Well, I have no interest of the un-toned versions, so I'm going to go ahead and spend it on something else."

Like he cares. Laird seems to get off on screaming "I LOSE MONEY ON THE BOOK, IT'S A GIFT FOR THE FANS!11!" I actually get the feeling the guy likes losing money, considering how frequently he plays that card.

[Roseangelo]

It does make it really frustrating to be a fan. If you don't like the content of the comic books, he tells you "Don't like it? Don't buy it." And if you then don't buy the books and the books loose money, he still doesn't care. It makes it impossible to have even a whisper of a voice as a fan. It's not (incredibly) reasonable to expect him to do as we ask when we write a letter, but we should still have a voice when it comes to sales and the lack of sales should make a difference.

When Fast Forward was announced last year I made the decision to not buy a single FF toy. Now, it is apparently poor toy sales that have had influence in FF's likely lack of a future. It kinda makes me happy for my own little personal boycott decision.

But with the comics? Whether you're talking with a pen, a keyboard, your voice, or your wallet... you're just talking to a brick wall. :ohwell:

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Like he cares. Laird seems to get off on screaming "I LOSE MONEY ON THE BOOK, IT'S A GIFT FOR THE FANS!11!" I actually get the feeling the guy likes losing money, considering how frequently he plays that card.

Look, the dude is basically doing this book for the hell of it. He knows this thing isn't pulling in anywhere near the sales Spider-Man and X-Men are, but he's just doing it for anyone who wants to read it. He's not making anything on the books, he can basically anytime he feels like it.

He's under no pressure to get this book out every month, he's just doing it for anyone intrested. So instead of bitching, why no try shuting up and enjoying it.

[DrSpengler]

Criticism =/= Bitching

And furthermore, I have no qualms when it comes to pointing out the man's hypocrisy, whether you like it or not. Every issue he tells people not to buy his book then turns around and moans that it's not making any money. It may hurt your feelings when someone points out that the only one to blame for Vol. 4's financial woes is Laird-himself, but all your "bitching" about my "bitching" isn't going to change facts.

So yeah, get over it. You may worship the man but that doesn't make him infallable.

[Roseangelo]

So instead of bitching, why no try shuting up and enjoying it.

Enjoying what? He's not actually producing anything right now and he doesn't seem to have any plans to start anytime soon. If Peter isn't going to continue Vol. 4, he should hire someone who can produce a monthy or bi-monthly book. I think it's stupid that we don't get a continuing storyline because Peter doesn't currently have the time/inspiration to work on it.

When Vol. 4 started there was not yet a new TV series, let alone a movie, and so Peter had plenty of time to spend working on a comic book. At this point in time, the comic sort of was like a gift to the fans. There was absolutely nothing else happening with TMNT at the time, so this was all we had.

Times change and situations change. Now the wheels on the franchise are slowly churning again and of course there's going to be a ton of stuff that takes up his time to the point where he can't work on a comic book. But can you even say it's realistic for a co-creator of what is now a world-wide property to continue working on the related comic book? Does Spider-Man require Stan Lee's fulltime attention to get published every month? Hell no.

Now there is a TV series, a movie, and there is demand for TMNT comic books. The books would sell and make money if they came out on a regular schedule and if they told stories that stayed true to the characters and stories that were told in the early issues of Vol. 1 that launched the whole darned thing in the first place.

I'm with DrSpengler that I can't create excuses for Peter just because he's co-creator. It's earnest critisism and it's something everyone has to deal with in life. Heck, most people I know would prefer earnest critisism for something before it got beyond the point of no return, which I fear has probably already happened for Vol. 4.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

I'm with DrSpengler that I can't create excuses for Peter just because he's co-creator. It's earnest critisism and it's something everyone has to deal with in life. Heck, most people I know would prefer earnest critisism for something before it got beyond the point of no return, which I fear has probably already happened for Vol. 4.

There's earnest criticism, and then there's just being petty.

[The Shelf]

Does Spider-Man require Stan Lee's fulltime attention to get published every month? Hell no.

Perhaps not, but Spider-man would be a heckuva lot better if he was. Don't get me wrong, Spider-man is still fun and entertaining, but the quality of the stories and especially the character development have certainly gone downhill since Stan left. I guess that's open to debate and personal opinion, though.

In any case, one of the coolest things about Volume 4 is that it has been written completely by one of the turtles founders. You may argue that it's not good for the franchise, but it certainly is unique in the comics industry, and I would prefer to keep it that way as long as possible. I'm not happy having to wait for Peter to get around to Volume 4 again either, but I'm happy with what he's written so far, so what gives me the right to complain? Criticism is great and all, but when you do it week after week after week, it gets old and turns into complaining rather than criticism.

I'm not knocking on anyone in particular, but if the things Peter is doing are actually making you angry or frustrated, then I think it would be wise to find a new hobby. I don't mean abandon the turtles altogether, but find something else to take your mind off them.

[Roseangelo]

I keep finding myself linking to the posts where I gave the comparison between the original #1 and the new version. It's a pain in the butt to keep looking for the posts, so I threw everything onto a webpage, which you can see here (http://www.geocities.com/roseangelo/history).

(This is not an effort to reopen the debate, so please don't.)

[Andrew NDB]

To be fair, if Bob Kane were still alive, and he booted out all of the people currently working on the Batman comics, I'm not certain the mass majority of today's Batman fans would approve of the kind of material we might get (Batman shooting criminals dead with his handgun and laughing about it, the Bat Hound and Bat-Mite and all that stuff).

It's all relative.