Levels of Ninjutsu

[Raph's Girl]

I was curious about what exactly the levels of Ninjutsu were...so I looked it up. All Wikipedia has is the levels seen in Naruto...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunin

Genin (low level/Jr Ninja), Chunin (middle level/Journyman), Jonin (Elite Ninja/High level)

However I did find more sites in Google:
http://www.geocities.com/yowie_26/6.htm

Chunin is also apperantly spelled Chuunin

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

So the Turtles would be...Chunin level?

Come to think about, I remeber an issue of the comics where Splinter is referd to as Jounin.

[Blade Raider]

So the Turtles would be...Chunin level?

Come to think about, I remeber an issue of the comics where Splinter is referd to as Jounin.

No, actually they are generally Genins, or at least they start as Genins. Proof of this is in the first issue, Shredder calls them Genins. Also, you are right about Splinter; Leo (I think, the red confuses me :P) calls him 'Jounin Splinter' in the second issue. The only time I know of that they are Chunin is in FF. Anyone know if they become Chunin in the comics?

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

No, actually they are generally Genins, or at least they start as Genins. Proof of this is in the first issue, Shredder calls them Genins. Also, you are right about Splinter; Leo (I think, the red confuses me :P) calls him 'Jounin Splinter' in the second issue. The only time I know of that they are Chunin is in FF. Anyone know if they become Chunin in the comics?

I would think after they killed the Shredder.

Currently, they, or at least Leo, may be Jounin themselves.

[triplexxx]

They are now Chunin in the cartoon, do you think there'll be a future episode when they advance to Jounin.

[heretic888]

I was curious about what exactly the levels of Ninjutsu were...so I looked it up. All Wikipedia has is the levels seen in Naruto...

That's because these "levels of Ninjutsu" don't exist outside of Naruto.

Now, according to the works of military historian Stephen Turnbull, these terms were used to refer to general job positions within the ninja's military hierarchy. But, they weren't "levels" denoting individual skill and you couldn't just be "promoted" from, say, genin to chunin because you trained hard. A historical chunin was not necessarily a more skillful or better trained ninja than a historical genin. It just meant he had a different skillset and different responsibilities.

However, I have yet to see a single historical documentation of these "ranks", so I am very doubtful as to whether they even existed at all.

[Ninjinister]

There was a kid's book that I remember flipping through in my local library last year, that was published in the 80's or early 90's about ninja, that gave the ranks used in Naruto.

[Revan]

What is Bushido then? Leo refers to this often. I always thought that was the highest rank but obviously not.

[Casual Matt]

What is Bushido then? Leo refers to this often. I always thought that was the highest rank but obviously not.

Bushido isn't a rank. It's the code of conduct, a way of life, and what dictates Leonardo's morals. In other words, it's "The Way of the Warrior."

[ToTheNines]

Bushido is a Samurai version of chivalry, idk why Leo is so crazy over it, he is a ninja, after all.

[Revan]

Ah I see. That makes sense.

[iris]

Bushido is a Samurai version of chivalry, idk why Leo is so crazy over it, he is a ninja, after all.

One can have one's own bushido code. I suspect Leo does.

The word bushido means, roughly, "way of the learned warrior."

[Garou]

As it has already been stated, calling them levels is a wrong term. The titles only said something about what their position was. A Jounin had a set of Chuunins under his command, who had command over a lot of Genins.

The Genins only knew their Chuunin, and not the Jounin. It was to make sure, that if the Genin was caught ans tortured, he couldn't tell who the Jounin was. Pretty smart, if you ask me...

[ToTheNines]

Yea, but he mentions it to Splinter several times as if he tought it to him.

[heretic888]

What is Bushido then? Leo refers to this often. I always thought that was the highest rank but obviously not.

"Bushido" is a romanticized code of conduct that the historical samurai were believed to abide by.

It should be noted that the vast majority of what the Western world knows of "bushido" comes from a book written by Nitobe Inazo around 1900, which was little more than his Christian beliefs covered up in a "Japanese" face. The term itself was so uncommon that Inazo mistakenly believed he invented it himself. That speaks volumes.

For all intents and purposes, "bushido" never existed before the 20th century.

[heretic888]

Bushido is a Samurai version of chivalry, idk why Leo is so crazy over it, he is a ninja, after all.

Just as an aside, historically most "ninja" were samurai.

[heretic888]

As it has already been stated, calling them levels is a wrong term. The titles only said something about what their position was. A Jounin had a set of Chuunins under his command, who had command over a lot of Genins.

The Genins only knew their Chuunin, and not the Jounin. It was to make sure, that if the Genin was caught ans tortured, he couldn't tell who the Jounin was. Pretty smart, if you ask me...

Yes, but as I mentioned before, I have yet to see any historical documentation to support the use of these terms. Turnbull, for example, never cites a source for his information.

I am seriously skeptical about them. Like "bushido", I doubt they predate the 20th century.

[iris]

The history is a mixed up thing. You have to wonder, heretic, what books Leo has been reading. ;)

Regardless of origin, the idea exists today. There are plenty of people who take budo seriously, and not just Westerners.

[heretic888]

The history is a mixed up thing. You have to wonder, heretic, what books Leo has been reading. ;)

Well, a lot of this "Leo and Bushido" stuff comes from the new toon. I don't know if anybody else has picked up on this yet, but they don't exactly research anything Asian all that well. ;)

I mean, having a bunch of Japanese say "chi" instead of "ki" is just silly...

Regardless of origin, the idea exists today. There are plenty of people who take budo seriously, and not just Westerners.

Well, wait a minute. Budo and bushido ain't the same thing now...

[iris]

Well, a lot of this "Leo and Bushido" stuff comes from the new toon. I don't know if anybody else has picked up on this yet, but they don't exactly research anything Asian all that well. ;)
*gasp* Nevar! ;)

Well, wait a minute. Budo and bushido ain't the same thing now...

Depends on context. And on who you ask. So-called "modern bushido" can be (but isn't always) just about equivalent to budo. Before the last century, it was all budo or bujutsu, by my understanding (and my understanding is rather tenuous). I guess bushido might be "the gentleman's budo." :ohwell:

All these terms (budo, bushido, samuraido, bujutsu, etc) have rather mixed up definitions and etymologies. Languages are always changing. Throw in some cross-cultural faschism and you may as well put your dictionary in the bin.

But if we're talking about TMNT, I'd apply modern definitions. In which case you can take your pick as to what the heck any of it means.

[heretic888]

Depends on context. And on who you ask. So-called "modern bushido" can be (but isn't always) just about equivalent to budo. Before the last century, it was all budo or bujutsu, by my understanding (and my understanding is rather tenuous). I guess bushido might be "the gentleman's budo." :ohwell:

Nope. ;)

Budo and bujutsu are both terms for martial arts in Japanese. There is this idea that bujutsu denotes martial arts developed for combat, whereas budo denotes martial arts developed for personal betterment. But, this dichotomy was pretty much invented by the late Don Draeger and is pretty much a "Western" thing (i.e., Japanese martial artists always looked upon it with bemusement).

Bushido, by contrast, refers to a romanticized code of chivalry the samurai purportedly followed. It doesn't have anything directly to do with martial arts. In fact, the samurai most people quote when talking about bushido ---- Yamamoto Tsunetomo, posthumous author of the Hagakure --- was not a martial artist and never saw a real battle in his life.

Hope that makes sense.

[Ninjinister]

Well, the truth is, a lot of history from that time is spotty at best, so not a single one of us knows EXACTLY what went down then. That is why there are so many conflicting tales. For example, I personally practice ninjutsu myself (4 years, although I'm still very much a beginner), but I still don't know for sure how this specific branch started.

These parts of history are like a personal canon; what one has learned may not actually be completely what happened. In a lot of ways, it's like religion; I've read at least four different ways in which Lord Ganesha was supposed to obtain his elephant head.

[Revan]

What is the difference between ninjitsu and samurai

[Daunt]

Actually the ranks genin, chuunin and Jounin are all simply fantasy concepts invented by the creator of Naruto. :) No basis in reality, I promise.

Here are a few links that may help:

http://www.bujinkan.com/index.html
Master Hatsumi is the grand master of Bujinkan, which is a martial art founded on Ninjutsu. To quote a source: "He is recognized by many as the foremost authority on Ninjutsu, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and Shinkentaijutsu."

There is more information about Bujinkan here:
http://shinkentaijutsu.com//index.php

Here is more information on wikipedia but I only scanned it. I can't verify if the information is correct.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninjutsu

My brother spent many years training in Bujunkan Taijutsu. :) It was really cool to see him practicing his roof climbing (!!!!) and other rather wacky things. It's a very spiritually oriented martial art. If you can get more resources I highly recommend reading about it because there are a lot of misconceptions about true Ninjutsu.

>_>; My apologies if I posted too much useless info!

[iris]

Nope. ;)

Budo and bujutsu are both terms for martial arts in Japanese. There is this idea that bujutsu denotes martial arts developed for combat, whereas budo denotes martial arts developed for personal betterment. But, this dichotomy was pretty much invented by the late Don Draeger and is pretty much a "Western" thing (i.e., Japanese martial artists always looked upon it with bemusement).

Bushido, by contrast, refers to a romanticized code of chivalry the samurai purportedly followed. It doesn't have anything directly to do with martial arts. In fact, the samurai most people quote when talking about bushido ---- Yamamoto Tsunetomo, posthumous author of the Hagakure --- was not a martial artist and never saw a real battle in his life.

Hope that makes sense.

I'm not disagreeing with you. That's all true, so far as I can tell. But those definitions are too discrete for modern times.

The martial arts memes of Japan are not highly conserved the way the tea ceremony is. In terms of how valid an idea is, it doesn't matter if it originated in Japan or the West, or China, or the Subcontinent (and a lot of Japanese words and culture did come from those places, though maybe it's rude to say so). In the end, everything is folded together as people adopt what works. So the definitions are far more expansive and varying than the above.

Well, the truth is, a lot of history from that time is spotty at best, so not a single one of us knows EXACTLY what went down then. That is why there are so many conflicting tales. For example, I personally practice ninjutsu myself (4 years, although I'm still very much a beginner), but I still don't know for sure how this specific branch started..

Yeah, there's the thing. It's like a jigsaw puzzle with a thousand extra pieces.

[Ninjinister]

Actually the ranks genin, chuunin and Jounin are all simply fantasy concepts invented by the creator of Naruto. :)

If I find that book again, I will scan the pages detailing the ranks. Trust me, Kishimoto did not invent those terms.

[heretic888]

What is the difference between ninjitsu and samurai

Well....

Ninjutsu (this is the correct transliteration, by the way) is not a martial art per se. It is a collection of pre-modern Japanese military skills pertaining to stealth, espionage, reconnaissance, intelligence work, and the like. This involves things like learning how to conceal oneself in nature, moving silently, adopting period appropriate disguises, archaic cipher systems, and similar skills.

Samurai, by contrast, refers to the "warrior" social class prior to the Meiji Restoration. In reality, not all samurai were soldiers or warriors. The term simply designated someone who made a vow of fealty to a daimyo or his family. In other words, it was a social title for Japanese vassals or retainers. The samurai caste was legally abolished with the Meiji Restoration in the 1860's.

Hope that answers your question.

[heretic888]

I'm not disagreeing with you. That's all true, so far as I can tell. But those definitions are too discrete for modern times.

The martial arts memes of Japan are not highly conserved the way the tea ceremony is. In terms of how valid an idea is, it doesn't matter if it originated in Japan or the West, or China, or the Subcontinent (and a lot of Japanese words and culture did come from those places, though maybe it's rude to say so). In the end, everything is folded together as people adopt what works. So the definitions are far more expansive and varying than the above.

Iris, I'm going to be blunt here.

The confusion of terminology has little or nothing to do with a different "way" or "meme" of seeing or doing things. It has to do with ignorance, plain and simple. The people that originally tossed around these terms and concepts simply had no idea what they were talking about. That is why most Japanese martial artists would politely laugh behind your back if you seriously put forward the ideas you're talking about in Japan.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the linguistic theories you're evoking here. They just don't apply in this context.

[heretic888]

If I find that book again, I will scan the pages detailing the ranks. Trust me, Kishimoto did not invent those terms.

No, he most certainly did not. Stephen Turnbull was talking about them in the 1980's, as was Andrew Adams.

However, that doesn't change the fact that there is no historical documentation I am aware of for these terms. They may very well have come from popular fiction and then passed off as "history", as many "ninja stories" were.

[Blade Raider]

Actually the ranks genin, chuunin and Jounin are all simply fantasy concepts invented by the creator of Naruto. :) No basis in reality, I promise.
Then explain this :P:
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/809/jonindy0.jpg
TMNT #2, Page 22, Panel 5. This was printed over 20 years ago. So for it not to have basis in reality, Kishimoto would have to be a TMNT fan or there is a third fiction that influences both. He did make up some things, but this is proof that the ranks has some basis. I am still looking for better proof than the geocities link for Genin and Chunin though.

Also, I made a mistake earlier, Shredder calls the Turtles "gaijin" (generally means "foreigner"), not Genin. Sorry about that.

[Daunt]

No, he most certainly did not. Stephen Turnbull was talking about them in the 1980's, as was Andrew Adams.

However, that doesn't change the fact that there is no historical documentation I am aware of for these terms. They may very well have come from popular fiction and then passed off as "history", as many "ninja stories" were.

If you can find the names of the books you spotted them in, I'd love to read up on it. Back when I was younger I did a lot of personal study on Japan, ninjutsu and the Edo period and I never saw a single reference using those terms so I'd be really curious to see what I missed!

I'm thinking heretic may be correct in that they are products of contemporary writings and not actual historical terms. Sort of like 'Orcs' and 'Elves' are common words today but they aren't actual living creatures.

Just my 2 cents though! I'm really curious now to get to the bottom of this now. :)

[iris]

Iris, I'm going to be blunt here.

The confusion of terminology has little or nothing to do with a different "way" or "meme" of seeing or doing things. It has to do with ignorance, plain and simple. The people that originally tossed around these terms and concepts simply had no idea what they were talking about. That is why most Japanese martial artists would politely laugh behind your back if you seriously put forward the ideas you're talking about in Japan.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the linguistic theories you're evoking here. They just don't apply in this context.
Forgive me, but I fail to understand how my "theories" do not apply within the context of this thread. I would think that we are talking about more than only the traditions of Japanese culture within Japan.

Leo loves the tradition of his heritage, but he grew up in NYC. That is bound to affect the way he thinks and acts (even though he's a fictitious character :lol: ).

[Daunt]

Then explain this :P:
http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/809/jonindy0.jpg
TMNT #2, Page 22, Panel 5. This was printed over 20 years ago. So for it not to have basis in reality, Kishimoto would have to be a TMNT fan or there is a third fiction that influences both. He did make up some things, but this is proof that the ranks has some basis. I am still looking for better proof than the geocities link for Genin and Chunin though.

Also, I made a mistake earlier, Shredder calls the Turtles "gaijin" (generally means "foreigner"), not Genin. Sorry about that.

Whoa, thats pretty cool! :o I haven't read my own copies of the graphic novels in years, I don't even remember that.

Funny thing is the japanese translation of jounin is something along the lines of 'permanent' or 'long standing' where as chuunin is 'go-between' or 'matchmaking', Genin acutally seems plausible as it means 'low-rank person' or 'menial.'

It's neat to find out that they were products of Kishimoto's imagination but I'm still not convinced that they're historically accurate.

[heretic888]

If you can find the names of the books you spotted them in, I'd love to read up on it. Back when I was younger I did a lot of personal study on Japan, ninjutsu and the Edo period and I never saw a single reference using those terms so I'd be really curious to see what I missed!

Stephen Turnbull has written two books about the ninja, Ninja: The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult and Ninja: AD 1460-1650. Andrew Adams has written one book about the ninja, Ninja: The Invisible Assassins.

On a personal note, I would take the vast majority of information in these books with a grain of salt. Most of it is speculative nonsense without historical documentation.

[Daunt]

Stephen Turnbull has written two books about the ninja, Ninja: The True Story of Japan's Secret Warrior Cult and Ninja: AD 1460-1650. Andrew Adams has written one book about the ninja, Ninja: The Invisible Assassins.

On a personal note, I would take the vast majority of information in these books with a grain of salt. Most of it is speculative nonsense without historical documentation.

Will do! Grains of salt shall be had. Thanks muchly for the book names. :)

[heretic888]

Forgive me, but I fail to understand how my "theories" do not apply within the context of this thread. I would think that we are talking about more than only the traditions of Japanese culture within Japan.

But the crux of the matter is that we are talking about Japanese words and Japanese cultural traditions. That a bunch of non-Japanese fundamentally misunderstand them is irrelevant.

Occasionally, foreign terms are co-opted into other languages to take on a life of their own. An example of this is the way that "jujitsu" is now used in North America to refer to generalized grappling martial arts, as distinguished from proper Japanese jujutsu. This is an example of a "Westernizing" of a previously Asian term to take on its own unique context.

The problem is that when people talk about budo, bujutsu, and bushido, they aren't pretending that these are Western adaptations of Japanese concepts. These people really do believe this is how the concepts are understood and used in Japan. And, no matter how you slice it, this is wrong. No "meme" is going to change this fact.

Words certainly can take on a life of their own, given enough time. The problem is these are Japanese words used to describe Japanese traditions and, curiously enough, their meanings haven't changed at all in Japan.

[iris]

The problem is that when people talk about budo, bujutsu, and bushido, they aren't pretending that these are Western adaptations of Japanese concepts. These people really do believe this is how the concepts are understood and used in Japan. And, no matter how you slice it, this is wrong. No "meme" is going to change this fact.
Hey now, don't pick on the word "meme." It's a perfectly valid term in social evolution, and I didn't mean it in the jagged, pop culture way.

Regardless, I suspect that, although I tend to agree with most of what you say, you and I are talking about irreconcilably separate issues.

[Kendamu]

That's because these "levels of Ninjutsu" don't exist outside of Naruto.

Now, according to the works of military historian Stephen Turnbull, these terms were used to refer to general job positions within the ninja's military hierarchy. But, they weren't "levels" denoting individual skill and you couldn't just be "promoted" from, say, genin to chunin because you trained hard. A historical chunin was not necessarily a more skillful or better trained ninja than a historical genin. It just meant he had a different skillset and different responsibilities.

However, I have yet to see a single historical documentation of these "ranks", so I am very doubtful as to whether they even existed at all.
Actually, Genin, Chunin, and Jonin exist(ed) in real life back when there actually were Ninja.

The Genins did feild work. The Chunin set up missions, did in-between work for the Jonin and Genin, and other such duties. The Jonin was just one person at the top who oversaw the whole thing. Most Genin didn't even actually see their Jonin in person as giving all the lower guys that kind of information could really compromise the secrecy of Ninja work.

[heretic888]

Hey now, don't pick on the word "meme." It's a perfectly valid term in social evolution, and I didn't mean it in the jagged, pop culture way.

I don't know about that. ;)

Memetics is pretty much a dead discipline now. Nobody is doing any significant research with it --- actually, it could be argued that research was never done in the field --- and the original proponents of memetics have all pretty moved on to other things. Dawkins, for example, hasn't talked about memes in almost a decade.

I tend to see memetics as more of an ideological framework (similar in some regards to "intelligent design") than actual science.

Regardless, I suspect that, although I tend to agree with most of what you say, you and I are talking about irreconcilably separate issues.

Probably. :D

[heretic888]

Actually, Genin, Chunin, and Jonin exist(ed) in real life back when there actually were Ninja.

Actually, this has yet to be demonstrated.

Just because a few Western writers say these terms were used by the historical ninja doesn't mean they actually were. As I stated beforehand, I have yet to see a single citation or documentation among any writer to support the existence of these terms prior to the 20th century.

As an aside, these terms are never used in historical ninjutsu treatises like the Bansenshukai and the Shoninki. I suspect their origins come from popular fiction during the Meiji Jidai.

[Kendamu]

Actually, this has yet to be demonstrated.

Just because a few Western writers say these terms were used by the historical ninja doesn't mean they actually were. As I stated beforehand, I have yet to see a single citation or documentation among any writer to support the existence of these terms prior to the 20th century.

As an aside, these terms are never used in historical ninjutsu treatises like the Bansenshukai and the Shoninki. I suspect their origins come from popular fiction during the Meiji Jidai.
You talk about Bansenshukai and Shoninki like you can read Kanbun or you have a full translation of them. Not counting http://www.ninpo.org/, that German Shoninki (or Ninpiden; I can't remember), and that one PDF untranslated Bansenshukai, what kind of sources are you using to get that kind of info? If you know of some awesome source that isn't related to a current Ninja-related school (unless it's something about the scouting methods of Katori Shinto Ryu) I would love to read them.

I like that kind of stuff. Until then, I'll be looking to find where I got that info I just spouted about Genin, Chunin, and Jonin to see if there's any reliable sources or what I said or if my memory on the subject comes from a biased text.

EDIT: So far, Google's only given me Bujinkan-related results on the whole Genin, Chunin, and Jonin thing (outside of Naruto). And, well, to anyone keeping up with Ninpo stuff your perception of anything leading back to Takamatsu Toshitsugu is controversial. Some serious Ninjutsu scholars count Takamatsu-den arts as legitimate and others don't believe that his stuff goes back beyond the Meiji era.

Personally, Shinken Taijutsu is pretty fun to practice and the "Secret Techniques" book Hatsumi Masaaki published a few years ago are pretty cool but I don't like looking far beyond that because most of it is overly influenced by the 1980s Ninja Boom. When it comes to talking history before Takamatsu (not counting stories of those like Hanzo Hattori) I look for sources not biased by a specific school. It helps to use unbiased sources when talking online because people who don't perceive the Takamatsu-den arts as legitimate won't automatically disregard what I say just because the word "Bujinkan" is attached to it.

I don't like getting too deep into Ninpo discussion most of the time, though. It tends to go against that whole "act as a normal person and not as a martial artist" thing that Hatsumi Masaaki talks about (which obviously comes from at least Shoninki).

[Ninjinister]

Funny thing is the japanese translation of jounin is something along the lines of 'permanent' or 'long standing' where as chuunin is 'go-between' or 'matchmaking', Genin acutally seems plausible as it means 'low-rank person' or 'menial.'

I'm not entirely sure on jou, but chu/chuu can also mean "average". Hence my friends and I finding it funny that "chuubaka" means "average idiot" at one point.

In any case, I maintain the fact that gennin, chuunin, and jounin were actual ranks at some point in ninja history, albeit not in the same usage as Naruto. In addition, I have never read anything previously to the existance of Naruto, regarding Tokubetsu Jounin, nor Kage as ranks, as well as other such terms as ANBU or S-Class that some try to say are legitimate. I believe the basic three are the only ones that existed.

Remember, lack of evidence does not equate lack of existance.

[Daunt]

Goonga, a majority of my recent and limited knowledge of 'ninjutsu' is from my brother. He attended the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu school in Atlanta and all of their teachings, of course, came from Hatsumi and before him Takamatsu. before that, really all I had to go on at the time were the 'reliable' ninjutsu books of the 80s. Thank goodness for the internet now. >_>;

I'm kind of whipped into a minor scholarly frenzy over this, I really want to try to get to the bottom of this genin, chuunin, jounin thing. :va

Out of curiosity, Goonga, have you seen Hatsumi's technique videos? They're quite amazing. :)

The S, I'm thinking that jou- could also pass as 'advanced' as an alternative to 'long-standing'...or maybe a combination of the two in concept. Someone who has been in a position for a long time through skill? Just an idea to consider, mind you, I only spent 2 years learning Japanese so my translation ability is really limited to dictionaries. :(

[Kendamu]

Goonga, a majority of my recent and limited knowledge of 'ninjutsu' is from my brother. He attended the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu school in Atlanta and all of their teachings, of course, came from Hatsumi and before him Takamatsu. before that, really all I had to go on at the time were the 'reliable' ninjutsu books of the 80s. Thank goodness for the internet now. >_>;

I'm kind of whipped into a minor scholarly frenzy over this, I really want to try to get to the bottom of this genin, chuunin, jounin thing. :va

Out of curiosity, Goonga, have you seen Hatsumi's technique videos? They're quite amazing. :)

The S, I'm thinking that jou- could also pass as 'advanced' as an alternative to 'long-standing'...or maybe a combination of the two in concept. Someone who has been in a position for a long time through skill? Just an idea to consider, mind you, I only spent 2 years learning Japanese so my translation ability is really limited to dictionaries. :(
Oh yeah. I've seen almost all of them as far as I know. Good stuff but the intro music can be a bit corny after seeing it a billion times.

By the way, there was one video that during the beginning before getting to the techniques it showed two Taijutsu guys walking back and forth across the screen from one tree to another while swinging their arms kind of oddly back and forth in rythym with their steps. What's that all about? Does anybody know?

Back on topic, though, I haven't seen any historical unbiased info with the terms we're looking for in it.

[heretic888]

You talk about Bansenshukai and Shoninki like you can read Kanbun or you have a full translation of them. Not counting http://www.ninpo.org/, that German Shoninki (or Ninpiden; I can't remember), and that one PDF untranslated Bansenshukai, what kind of sources are you using to get that kind of info? If you know of some awesome source that isn't related to a current Ninja-related school (unless it's something about the scouting methods of Katori Shinto Ryu) I would love to read them.

No, I can't read the original kanji. They're not in modern Japanese anyway, so you'd need something of a specialist to translate them.

My information comes from Richard Ray's partial translations at ninpo.org,, and the summaries provided by Stephen Turnbull and Stephen Hayes. It is important to note that both Turnbull and Hayes talk about the genin/chunin/jonin ranks as if they are historical fact, but not once do they cite or quote any of the ninjutsu treatises like the Bansenshukai to corroborate their information.

[heretic888]

Remember, lack of evidence does not equate lack of existance.

With all due respect, this is a non-argument.

This is akin to saying that because I believe in invisible pink flying elephants and you can't disprove their existence (can't prove a negative, after all), that they therefore probably exist. The conclusion does not follow the premises.

At the end of the day, you need something more than "just because" or "because I think so" to support a historical hypothesis. You need an actual reason to support a hypothesis, not faith-assertions.

[heretic888]

The S, I'm thinking that jou- could also pass as 'advanced' as an alternative to 'long-standing'...or maybe a combination of the two in concept. Someone who has been in a position for a long time through skill? Just an idea to consider, mind you, I only spent 2 years learning Japanese so my translation ability is really limited to dictionaries. :(

Daunt,

Even if one accepts the historical usage of these terms, as I stated beforehand they are not used in the context of "skill" rankings. They simply denote a set of responsibilities along a military hierarchy. Furthermore, if you accept the word of authors such as Hayes and Turnbull, it is highly unlikely that a ninja at one rank could be "promoted" to the next. They were more or less lifetime positions, most probably inherited from one's parents.

As for the translations themselves: genin means "low man", chunin means "middle man" or "average man", and jonin means "high man".

[heretic888]

By the way, there was one video that during the beginning before getting to the techniques it showed two Taijutsu guys walking back and forth across the screen from one tree to another while swinging their arms kind of oddly back and forth in rythym with their steps. What's that all about? Does anybody know?

They're practicing yoko aruki or "side stepping".

In essence, it is a way of walking with your feet pointed to the side rather then in the direction you are walking. The point of moving in this way was so a pursuer would have difficulty tracking which way a ninja was going, as his footprints were pointed in a different direction than he was actually moving.

Back on topic, though, I haven't seen any historical unbiased info with the terms we're looking for in it.

Yeah, I'd relegate these terms to "straight-bladed ninja sword" status. ;)

[Kendamu]

No, I can't read the original kanji. They're not in modern Japanese anyway, so you'd need something of a specialist to translate them.

My information comes from Richard Ray's partial translations at ninpo.org,, and the summaries provided by Stephen Turnbull and Stephen Hayes. It is important to note that both Turnbull and Hayes talk about the genin/chunin/jonin ranks as if they are historical fact, but not once do they cite or quote any of the ninjutsu treatises like the Bansenshukai to corroborate their information.
Yeah. Like I said... Kanbun (non-modern kanji-based Japanese writing).

So we're pretty much on the same page here in terms of sources. Speaking of sources, one of us could always have a letter sent to Hatsumi Masaaki regarding the historical useage of those terms as most of us here are into Takamatsu-den stuff in one way or another.

I won't get paid until later on next week and sending a letter to Japan is expensive. That, and my Japanese teacher would have to find time to make a translation of what I want to ask him as I'm only in my second semester of Japanese and that limits me to things like "Did you eat breakfast yesterday," and similar common questions.

I'll see if I can go about sending a letter. This thread would probably be dead by the time I got a reply but I'd still like to know and I'd hope that necroposting wouldn't be too out of the question considering the time it takes to get the information through international mail.

In the meantime, I might as well add a few other questions about Ninpo in general. Either reply in here and/or PM me any questions that you would like included in the letter and I'll see about fitting them in.

[Daunt]

Daunt,

Even if one accepts the historical usage of these terms, as I stated beforehand they are not used in the context of "skill" rankings. They simply denote a set of responsibilities along a military hierarchy. Furthermore, if you accept the word of authors such as Hayes and Turnbull, it is highly unlikely that a ninja at one rank could be "promoted" to the next. They were more or less lifetime positions, most probably inherited from one's parents.

As for the translations themselves: genin means "low man", chunin means "middle man" or "average man", and jonin means "high man".

I see what you mean about them not being ranks and I totally agree. I think you're spot on in that respect.

Although with the translations, like all non-european based languages, oftentimes the actual translation is more of a complex concept that has been simplified down to a single english word.

Would 'Jounin' mean simply 'high man' or is there a more detailed concept behind it that a single english words can't describe? Thats what I'm wondering...

[heretic888]

So we're pretty much on the same page here in terms of sources. Speaking of sources, one of us could always have a letter sent to Hatsumi Masaaki regarding the historical useage of those terms as most of us here are into Takamatsu-den stuff in one way or another.

Seeing as how Dr. Hatsumi has never mentioned them in any of his writings, I wouldn't bother him with a letter asking about them. He's busy enough as is.

[Zog the Equalizer]

If i remember corectly Splinter is reffered to as Sannin at some point in the comics, which in naruto is aparently a ninja of such great skill that they are considered legendary and almost invinceable. Also if these ranks only exist in naruto, how is it that they were used in TMNT before Naruto?

[Kendamu]

Seeing as how Dr. Hatsumi has never mentioned them in any of his writings, I wouldn't bother him with a letter asking about them. He's busy enough as is.

True, but at the same time "go to the source" seems to be the cop-out answer for everything these days. That, and the man makes roughly $2,896 a week for teaching four hours worth of class. This isn't counting money from memberships, teaching lisences, testing, books, and DVDs. So, aside from the fact that I've been put under the impression before that it's quite alright to send him a letter (I guess he enjoys them), I doubt it'll absolutely kill his enterprise to read and respond to something that, even if he weren't really a Ninja master he could accurately answer for us based solely on his extensive knowledge of the history of Japanese martial arts.

Sorry. I guess that came off a little harsh. I got screwed out of four hours of sleep to come into work for ten freakin' minutes. But, I don't think it'd be too much of a bother to write a letter. I just want to know before I spend almost $10 in postage that it'll be worth the time and effort to someone more than just myself.