Which 2 Turtles are closest?

[Rooish]

Hope this topic hasn't been done too many times, but I don't think it gets old for a lot of us. Which two of the boys is closest--and understands each other best?

[Coola Yagami]

Most likely Leo and Raph, they like each other as much as they hate each other. Everyone else kinda seems 'there' to each other, each in their own thing.. Raph being a loner tough guy, Leo being all training and meditating, Mike being a skateboarding videogamer, Don in his room working on his next invention, and they mostly seem to come together when it's 'ninja time'. ( I know, I know, that was painful, LOL)

[The Shelf]

Y'know, this was actually really tough for me.

Leo's probably closest to Don, though, Don's usually off in his own world. I think Don and Leo have a good respect for each other, but I'm not sure I'd call them close.

Leo and Raph have developed a sort of mutual understanding and respect for each other, and their relationship is certainly unique among the turtles. I'm not sure I'd call them particularly close, though, either.

Raph and Mike seem to have the closest brotherly relationship, in my eyes. Raph looks out for Mike, and Mike seems to particularly enjoy annoying Raph more than anyone else. It might sound a little odd at first, but I really see those two as being the closest brothers for those reasons. So Raph and Mikey it is!

[Rooish]

Yeah, I was wondering if it was Leo and Raph, too. But the people who've voted seem to more agree that it's Raph and Mike. I haven't made up my mind. Any thoughts, folks?

[Roseangelo]

Yeah, I think there's a lot of mutual respect between Raph and Leo, but I don't think they're likely to just have a chat. I voted for Mike and Raph.

[AquaParade]

Voted for Mikey and Raph also. They mess with eachother a lot, but I think most of the time its in a pretty playful way.

[Rooish]

Hm, only one person thinks Don and Mikey, though? In the movies and the new toon, they definitely have their moments.

[Revan]

I went Don and Mikey based on the first movie adaptation. They share multiple scenes where their chemistry clearly shines.

[Jo Dawn]

I'd honestly have to really think on this. Now I won't be able to concentrate at class. :P Because they are all close, to choose who is the closest would be hard.

Like, mutually close? Hmm... Say is one closer to the other, but the other isn't so much?

And the potential! I always thought that Leo and Don's relationship was put way too far in the backround (which I address in my fics. [/end] shameless pimping.) and I was thrilled that in the 2K3 series they kind of... made them SPEAK to each other more. Leo asking Don's advice and help and all that. How it really would be. His kinda 'go to' for some things (which was made abundantly clear in the Monster Don ep.)

I'll have to think on this, though, before I give my all important poll answer, yes.

[heretic888]

Hope this topic hasn't been done too many times, but I don't think it gets old for a lot of us. Which two of the boys is closest--and understands each other best?

Uhhh.... which version of the TMNT are we talking about??

In the Mirage series, its definitely Mike and Raph. Hell, even the Palladium RPG (based on the Mirage characters) flat out states the only reason Raph hasn't yet tried to kill himself or his other brothers is because of Mike.

In the new toon, I'm not so sure. I'm not going to count the Abomination That Is Fast Forward (:evilgrin: ), but I'd still have to give it to Mike and Raph again. They seem to spend the most time together and wrestle/spar a lot.

I see Don and Leo as being more reclusive than Mike and Raph, honestly.

[Rooish]

I guess I meant which ones are mutually the closest, but we can definitely discuss the uneven relationships, too. For example, I sometimes think that Leo feels stronger about Don than Don feels about him. And sometimes I think that Mikey feels stronger about everyone than they feel about him, at least in the 2k3 toon. ;) I know I started this thread, but I still haven't voted. I'd say in the comics, it's definitely Mike and Raph ... and Leo and Don talk to each other more in the comics, too. I'm glad Leo and Don talk sometimes in the 2k3 series, although I still don't think it's really enough.

In the movies, it always seems to be that Don and Mike are closest. Raph didn't seem to like any of his brothers in the new movie. In the old toon it was Mike and Raph again, though, or Leo and Don. In 2k3 it seems to be Don and Mike or Raph and Mike.

Leo and Raph seem to be the most, passionate (platonically, obviously) about each other, though.

[jeff the cheff]

I didn't put that much thought into this, but I thought it was clearly Don and Mike. In the original movies, they were both the joker type, Raph wanted to be alone, and Leo was more close with splinter, and treated his brothers all equally. In the new movie, Leo isn't around, and Raph is very secluded. This leads to Mike and Don hanging out mostly.

[Revan]

Leo and Raph seem to be the most, passionate (platonically, obviously) about each other, though.

Thanks for that mental picture.

[Rooish]

Damn, I was trying to avoid giving people mental pictures. ;)

I meant they had the strongest feelings for each other. Maybe. Like, the most ambivalent. And lots of mutual respect (usually).

[Head Spinnin' Bebop]

Don and Mikey I think, my two favs too.

[Raph'sNinjaPrincess]

I don't know. I always thought Leo and Raph were the closest. I mean, they always seem to be at eack others throats, but they're always there for each other in the end....
Wow, that was probably the sappiest thing I've ever written.

[Warhorse]

I know the 2k3 toon seems to favor the Mikey and Raph bond, but the Don and Mikey bond from the movies seem more natural for me. So.

Mikey and Donny is my choice. I think it would be funner to hang around those two than any other pairing. Though Raph and Leo would be quite exhilerating, seeing you never know what kind of sh!t Raph will drag you and Leo into!:D

[MadPirateBunny]

Bad Bunny!

BADBUNNYBADBUNNYBADBUNNYBADBUNNY

When I first read that I thought it said something about Turltes in the closet and my first thought was ... THE TURTLES ARE GAY!!!!

That's when I realized what it really said and started beating my head against the wall.

Good thing the walls are padded.

[Time Mistress]

Raph and Mike.

Old Toon
take a look at Raph's reation to thinking Mike is dead at the end of A Thing About Rats
"If anything's happend to that little twerp I'll never forgive myself." (paraphrased)

New Toon
take a look at what Raph says when there think they are all going to die when the Mousers attack in Stockman's lab

Raph: So long guys it's been fun.
Mike: Even me Raph?
Raph: Even you Mikey, especially you.

As for Mirage Raph, see the sig below.

ALL the guys are close, but Raph is especially protective of his little brother. He only makes statement like those above about Mikey from what I've noticed. Attack one of Raph's bros and he'll put the smackdown on you, but attack Mike, he goes balistic.

I gotta stick up for my favorite pair.:)

If anyone wants more examples of the Raph/Mike bond I'd be happy to dig up some more.

[jeff the cheff]

Great examples, TimeMistress

[Cassidy]

This would be a tough call in my opinion; they're all pretty close. I'll vote Mikey and Raph, but I think there's some evidence of a strong bond between Leo and Raph, too. Even if it IS a love-hate relationship often times.

For example...

In 2k3 "Same as it never was" - Raph went balistic when Leo was slain despite the fact that they'd been pretty much hating each other's guts for several years. As Raph was dying, he crawled towards Leo, called his name, and collapsed right next to him. I cried the first time I saw that ep... and it's one of my all-time faves.

"Tales of Leo" - Has Raph cried in any other episode? (I haven't seen them all, just curious). Though I think his tears were for both Leo and the fact that Leo had become leader instead of him.

In the first movie - Leo remained in constant vigil over Raph until he recovered. Oh, and it was a Kodak moment.

Fourth movie - Splinter mentioned that Leo's absence had been especially hard on Raph.

[Time Mistress]

Thanks Jeff. And Cassidy makes a good case for Leo & Raph. It's just so hard to choose. I want to see more brotherly bonding moments between ALL of them. Such moments make me go all squooshy inside.:goofygri: Especially like the four Cassidy mentioned above.

[Dorkfish]

My first thought would have to be Don and Mikey. Especially in the old movies. Whenever Leo or Raph would pick on Mikey for saying something silly, Don would always be there to reassure him. But as for the new toon, I really like the big brother attitude Raph has towards his lil' bro, Mikey.

And I have to totally agree with Rooish with the whole platonic passion between Raph and Leo. Particularly in the new movie. :evilgrin:

[Cassidy]

platonic passion between Raph and Leo.
Y'know, I've always felt that the bond between Raph and Leo needed its own special term. While "platonic passion" sounds a bit odd, it seems to describe the relationship more adequately. There's just this underlying... electricity between the two. I can't really describe it.

[Jo Dawn]

I think Raph and Leo are just too alike for their own good, heh. They just express it in diferent ways.

I'll probably have to go for Raph/Mikey, though. I mean, I really think that Mike is what Raph would love to be, so carefree and all, no matter how annoyed he acts like he is, heh. I'm not giving a final vote yet, but that's my thinking thus far.

[The Shelf]

Hm, I considered making a separate thread for this, but I think the topic is small enough and similar enough to fit in here. In contrast, which two turtles do you think are most distant from each other? I think everyone will agree that we can narrow it down to these three pairings, so we'll leave the others out unless someone has good reason to add them:

Leo & Mike
Leo & Don
Raph & Don

I think Leo and Mike are closer to Don than Raph is, so that eliminates Leo & Don for me. Leo and Mike don't seem to interact much. They love each other and do stuff together, but more often than not Leo is just telling Mike not to goof around. Someone has said this before, but Raph and Don are about as opposite as you can get among the turtles. Raph is violent and rash, and Don is relatively peaceful and intelligent. They may not argue as much as Raph does with Leo, but they do argue and aren't as close as Raph is to Leo. It's not to say they have nothing in common or that they never get along, but I think Raph and Don are the most distant which is why I enjoy any interaction I can find between Raph and Don.

[Rooish]

Hahahaha, Raph and Leo's "platonic passion." Let's pretend I didn't coin that, okay?

But the, um, intensity of their relationship (dammit, I can't find any platonic-sounding words!!! I know they're all bros, a'ight?) was what caused me to be uncertain of my opinion on whether Mike and Raph are the closest, or whether Leo and Raph are. I mean, the closest relationship is probably Raph and someone, because Raph is so emotional. Raph has these intense ambivalent relationships with all his brothers, and it seems especially strong with both Leo and Mike. He also is crazy protective of them both (and Don, for that matter), as you can see from many episodes in the 2k3 toon. I honestly can't tell who Raph prefers; his jealousy of Leo makes him despise Leo sometimes, but Mikey's immaturity also provokes Raph a lot. But at the same time, I think Raph wishes he was more like both of them. But I think on his better days, Raph has more fun and trusts Mikey most.

That being said, in the new movie, Raph didn't seem to like any of them. That kinda bugged me.

Mikey and Don obviously get along very well, too. I just don't see what they bond on, exactly. I think they sort of cheer each other up, but don't have much in common.

As far as which Turtles are the least close, The Shelf, I'd say it's Raph and Don. That being said, I think Raph and Don understand each other better than Mikey and Leo understand each other. But Mikey looks up to Leo and Leo looks after Mikey, so they're close in that way. Raph and Don just clash on too many levels. But I think they do "get" each other to some extent, and have mutual respect. Well, maybe Raph respects Don more, but I don't think he'd want to admit it. ;)

I think Leo and Don have a lot of mutual understanding and respect, too, but they're the more bottled up brothers, so I'm not sure exactly how close they are. They definitely don't clash over much.

And this is why girls like the TMNT, too. We can analyze all the relationships to death. :roll: ;)

[Cassidy]

Well, another thought.
Has Raph ever gone after Don? I mean, REALLY gone after him?
He about crushed Mikey's head in with a pipe in "Meet Casey Jones" before his bros stopped him; and of course, he's had numerous fights with Leo.

[Rooish]

I think Raph knows not to mess with Don.

[The Shelf]

Don would whoop on 'im, and he knows it. :evilgrin:

[Rooish]

Heh, yeah. Also I don't think Don pushes Raph's buttons very much. He's a very gentle-natured turtle.

[Revan]

Ello Ello, what's all this then?

Don... Beat Raph...:lol:

[Time Mistress]

Good analysis on Leo/Mike and Don/Raph Rooish.

The only major time Don and Raph came to blows, from TMNT #12 the story the H.A.T.E. ep is based on:

Raph: We'll nail these yahoos but good! Then Don can disarm the bomb and -

Don: Hey! Hang on there for a minute, Raphael! First, taking out these guys isn't going to be a walk in the park -- they're probably armed with automatic weapons! Second, I may or may not be able to disarm the bomb! And third, we're talking about a nuclear device for God's sake! Maybe we should be thinking about getting the heck out of here! If that think works and it goes off, we can kiss out butts goodbye! -- Along with every other living thing in a five mile radius! Maybe this time, discression is the better part of valor!

Raph: Wha--?! I don't believe it! What a wimp! Never thought I'd see you chicken out --

Don: Raphael, if you'd weren't so agressively stupid, you'd see that we're dealing with something more than a d@mn firecracker, you moron!

Raph: Them's fightin' words Stick Boy!

Don: Hey! Anytime, anywhere Bonehead!

Splinter then steps between them to break up the fight. Too bad we didn't get to see this part in the TV episode.

It's interesting. Leo and Raph fight all the time and even Don and Raph have almost come to blows as seen above. But have Mike and Raph every really fought? Sure they trade insults all the time and Raph did almost clobber Mike with that pipe in his rage, but I don't think they have ever come to blows especially from Mike's side of things, which is interesting for Raph. Also, it's curious to note that in Mirage at least, Mike is Raph's main sparing partner.

[Jo Dawn]

I need to buy that comic.

[Nightwatcher]

This has already been mentioned but I said Raph and Mikey simply because I think Raph would have left and done his own thing long ago if Mikey weren't in the group.

Also I think it is rather important because I think it is commonly thought that the age of the turtles from oldest to youngest is Leo, Don, Raph and Mikey. So I think Raph looks out for Mikey more because he thinks that what a big brother should do and that is the only person he is a big brother for.

[Rooish]

Nice point, Nightwatcher.

And Jo, you do have to buy that comic. It was actually the first issue I ever bought of TMNT. It was also the first one Peter Laird did by himself. It's pretty Don-focused. It's Volume 1 #12.

[Spitfire]

Don and Mike have the best relationship. Maybe in the new toon it isn't stressed much but in the comics, the old movies, and the new movies you totally see this. They stick together and they play off one another alot.

[Roseangelo]

I've actually always seen the Mike/Don relationship as a forced consequence of Raph and Leo always butting heads. Not that I think they're not close, but I would rate Raph & Leo higher than Mike & Don (with Mike & Raph still being the closest). Raph and Don do seem the most distant, which made me enjoy seeing them butt heads ever so briefly in the new movie.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Leo and Raph. Sure they've fought a bunch of times, but it's always brought them closer. Without Raph challenging him, Leo wouldn't be the leader he is today. And without Leo's lecturing, Raph would probably be consumed with his own anger. They both have helped each other along all their lives. They'vegot to be the closest out od the group.

[heretic888]

This has already been mentioned but I said Raph and Mikey simply because I think Raph would have left and done his own thing long ago if Mikey weren't in the group.

That was me. ;)

And what I actually said (paraphrasing Palladium Books' TMNT RPG) was that the only reason Raphael hasn't yet killed himself or any of his brothers is because of Michelangelo. Straight from the horse's mouth:

A large part of why Raphael hasn't yet killed himself, or any of the other turtles, is due to his friendship with Michaelangelo. Michaelangelo is also Raphael's main sparring partner. It is Michaelangelo's great love of life and fun that acts as a balance for Raphael's anger and depressions.

At least, that's how they saw the characters in 1985. :P

Also I think it is rather important because I think it is commonly thought that the age of the turtles from oldest to youngest is Leo, Don, Raph and Mikey. So I think Raph looks out for Mikey more because he thinks that what a big brother should do and that is the only person he is a big brother for.

Okay, this has been bugging me for a little while now....

Despite the dialogue used in the movie, there is no "big" brother or "little" brother among the turtles. They are all the same age. Realistically, even if they were different ages, they would have no way of even knowing that because they were were all exposed to the mutagen at the same time (which was their real "birth", for all intents and purposes).

[odupianist]

I just don't see what they [Don and Mike] bond on, exactly.

I think they bond on their essentric tastes and jokes. Don, being a geek head, has a strange sense of humor. Mikey, who has a great sense of humor all around, understands it and is able to connect. With that being said, here's my analysis of all the relationships (some of which might have already been said, but it's my first post so :P on you)

Leo-Raph: Obviously the most volatile of all the relationships. A control freak against the rebel. At the same time, there's also a bit of respect there too. Depending on which arc you look at, as soon as Raph understands why he was not chosen as leader, he becomes a bit more humble. As most of you have said, it's a love-hate relationship. (Honorable mention for the closest)

Leo-Don: Not much to say here, but there is an immense amount of respect both ways. Don respects Leo as a leader, while Leo respects Don as a genius.

Leo-Mike: In his emo phase (after they defeated Shredder for good in 2k3 series), he was very pissy with Mikey and Mikey's nonsensical behavior. I have never really seen too much interaction between the two really, other than that example. I originally was thinking these two would be runner up to the least closest, but after writing my Don-Raph analysis, I changed my mind. (Least closest)

Don-Raph: I think Raph respects Don for being a genius when it comes to motorcycles and cars. I think if there was more of that interaction we could really see Don and Raph hit it off (ie 2k3 series, upon receiving the Shell Cycle, Raph: "Don, you ARE the turtle."). From what we see though, there isn't much there. As you all have said, they are quite opposite, more opposite than Leo and Raph. Don is introverted to a degree and quite the peaceful one. At the end of the City of War story arc in the comics, he stays with Splinter to meditate and become more enlightened. Because of the possible motorhead complex of both, I'm putting these as a runner up. (Very close runner up to the least closest).

Don-Mike: The first movie is obviously the indication of how these two get along. I mean jeez, they played paper-scissor-rock (or rock-paper-scissor lol) to see who would take on Shredder first. There's the pork rines, the kitchen comment when Leo and Raph fight, there's the Moonlighting comment about April and Casey when they're together, and who can forget Wheel of Fortune. As I said earlier, Don has a quirky sense of humor, and Mike gets it and is able to connect with Donny. (Close runner up of closest)

Raph-Mike: Obviously the closest. You all have stated the very reasons of why these two are close. I'm getting lazy now and don't feel like repeating them hahah. To give an example of why though real quick, my best friend (also my big brother in my fraternity, yeah go ahead, make all the frat jokes you want) and I consider ourselves Raph and Mike. I am Mike and he is Raph. I am the one who is around to cool his hot head down. When we dress up, and yes I'll add the pics some time from 2003's Halloween, he is the Raph to my Mike.

Just to make this thread continue living, here's an idea for you all (or a new thread)... which turtle is closest to April, which one is closest to Casey...

(I know, my post keeps going on, I'm sorry)

I think April and Casey could have one of two turtles: Don or Raph. Raph and Casey is an obvious pair. Don and Casey hit it off though with the motorhead trait, although Don and Casey have been known to fight (in the movie and some of the original comics) because Don was trying to be "too good" for Casey when Don would talk technical and deep.

April and Don hit it off in the original comics and 2k3 series because of the technological aspect. Although, in the first movie, Raph and April hit it off because Raph saves April. So there's a bit of a crush there. But yeah, that can be a new thread if you all so desire. I'm the newbie here lol. Now I'll shut up.

[Rooish]

heretic888, it is true that Splinter wouldn't have known in what order the turtles were born. But perhaps they mutated over a period of hours or days in this order: Leo, Don, Raph, Mike.

Awesome analysis, odupianist. Your description of Don and Mike helped me out a bit in my understanding them. That's really neat that you and your friend have a Raph-Mike bond.

Which Turtle is closest to April? Here's my opinion. In the old movies, Raph. In the new movie, Don or Leo. In the comics, Don, usually. In the new cartoon, Don.

And as for Casey, it's almost always Raph. Only in the first movie was it partially Don, for some reason. I'd say his second-best-friend Turtle is Mikey.

So, everyone, what about The Shelf's question? Which Turtles are the least close? And, say, whic one is least close with April, and least close with Casey? (For Casey I'd say Don, but I dunno with April).

[heretic888]

heretic888, it is true that Splinter wouldn't have known in what order the turtles were born. But perhaps they mutated over a period of hours or days in this order: Leo, Don, Raph, Mike.

Or, perhaps they mutated over a period of hours or days in this order: Raph, Mike, Don, Leo. Or, maybe even: Don, Leo, Mike, Raph. Or, possibly: Mike, Don, Raph, Leo.

Or, hey, maybe Splinter just broke into every pet store in New York to collate their documents for birthday purposes. :-D

I mean, since we're just making stuff up on the fly here, one speculation is just as valid as the next. ;)

[odupianist]

Actually, there is a yellow book, roughly based on the movie, but has info about the cartoons and stuff. In there, it has birthdays from what I remember. I could be wrong though. I'll have to check the boxes of TMNT stuff heh.

Glad I could help Rooish.

Least close with April, that's a tough one. Think about it, Don has the techno angle with the comics and new cartoon. Raph has the first movie save. Leo has the new movie with her wanting him to come back, and she was the connection for the Turtles if she heard anything about Splinter missing in the first movie. Mikey, the only thing he has is in the first movie when they kind flirt. "Oh, she called me Miikeeeeey." So I guess Mikey has the weakest case, but I could be wrong.

Least close with Casey, probably Mikey again. Casey is of course close with Raph in all arcs. Don and Casey have the motorhead thing at times. I think Casey has grown (again, in all arcs) to really respect Leo as a leader. Mike and Casey just joke around casually. So again, Mike.

[The Shelf]

I mean, since we're just making stuff up on the fly here, one speculation is just as valid as the next. ;)

I was under the understanding that Peter Laird said the turtles from oldest to youngest were Leo, Don, Raph, and Mike so I don't think anyone is speculating. I'm not sure how the characters themselves would know, though. I've always heard that Leo is a year older than the other three, and I always assumed that the other three were the same age but hatched in that order.

On a side note, has it ever been confirmed that the turtles are even blood brothers?

EDIT: Oh, and regarding April and Casey... Raph's obviously closest to Casey. Don is kinda close to Casey, but not as much. The comics always win in my decisions, so I'm going to have to say Don is closest to April because they're the two smartest characters and they get along great. I think Don takes it harder than the other turtles when April nearly dies from the nanites. As far as turtles most distant from April and Casey goes... I'm going to have to say that Leo is most distant from Casey just because I haven't seen them interact much. Casey may respect Leo as someone else said, but that doesn't make them close. I really can't say who is most distant from April. They all seem to interact with her pretty equally, except Don, of course, who I think is closest to her.

[heretic888]

I was under the understanding that Peter Laird said the turtles from oldest to youngest were Leo, Don, Raph, and Mike so I don't think anyone is speculating.

Actually, Laird has said they are the same age.

[heretic888]

Sorry, missed this from before....

On a side note, has it ever been confirmed that the turtles are even blood brothers?

Yes, they are biologically brothers (except in the old cartoon and The Next Mutation --- but there were reasons for that in those two formats).

I'd have to dig through all my old comics to see if I can find the specific references, but I distinctly remember it being answered in the letters column that a) the turtles are biological brothers and b) they are all the same age.

By the way, if you actually know anything about how turtles are hatched, it would be absurd for one of them to have been hatched "a year before" from the same father and miraculously end up in the same pet shop at the same time.

[The Shelf]

By the way, if you actually know anything about how turtles are hatched, it would be absurd for one of them to have been hatched "a year before" from the same father and miraculously end up in the same pet shop at the same time.

No, no, I absolutely agree. I'm not arguing with you. I was just going off what I thought I had read. I mean, it's pretty miraculous that the turtles can walk on two legs, so it's not that much of a stretch to say one turtle is a year older than the others.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Went with Don and Mike. In the movie they seemed to pal around more than anyone else. Raph and Leo seemed too busy butting heads. They come to an understanding later on, but I think Don and Mike could be considered closer.

[Spacefille]

This is really hard to look at guys, because each sibling is important to each other. I'm the first of four children and though I might hate my brother Alan who is the second oldest, I still love him. We had close to a Raph/Leo relationship too while teenagers, because I thought he was a retard most of the time and he thought I was a total loser (or whatever) and we argued constantly. But if I have to say, we were also the closest BECAUSE of that.

But I can't choose, anymore than they can. I feel close to and love all of my siblings, my other little brother who's aspergers and my little sister who I only semi get a long with as well, we're close too. I definitely could not choose between them. But that isn't the question is it?

I think Raph knows not to mess with Don.

I don't think Raph knows HOW to talk to Don at all. Which, yes, makes them "less close". A conversation between Don and Raph would end up the same way it did in the movie. Not good, but since Donatello's not aggressive, Raph would get bored pretty fast with picking at him.

I'd say that the turtles with the closest physical bond is Donny and Mike. They're totally cool hugging, sitting with their legs over one another (first movie) and hanging out and being geeky together. Sure Mikey doesn't have a hope at all of following any of Donatello's science stuff, but Donny seems to enjoy Mikey's company when he needs down time and they both seem to accept each other's differences. They are both "beta" males in the group, which means they can actually hang out and have a more equal relationship than Raph-Mike or Raph-Leo. That's why I chose those two, though I believe that Raph-Leo and Raph-Mikey are pretty close too. I like heretic888's post about Raph needing Mikey to keep himself sane.


In regards to the new movie, the Raph/Leo fight was excellent and highlighted the pain of that relationship. That relationship is the most complex, not the most close. They could never hang out and, you know, talk about things that are bothering each other... except they may have to because they are also the only two that would understand each other. Either way, Leo needs Raph to keep on his toes and Raph needs Leo to add balance to the group and Leo's the only one who has a hope of keeping him in line. Raphael would follow Donatello exactly no where if Donatello was in charge.

The interesting(?) thing about the Raph/Leo relationship is that it's painfully obvious that without Leo something is missing out of Raph's life. It's almost like a parent/rebellious child relationship... Raph gets immaturely angry at Leo, and Leo has the more coolheaded but still angry approach to dealing with Raph. Here's the question then, is a brother/brother relationship stronger than a child/parent?

[Warhorse]

This would be a tough call in my opinion; they're all pretty close. I'll vote Mikey and Raph, but I think there's some evidence of a strong bond between Leo and Raph, too. Even if it IS a love-hate relationship often times.

For example...

In 2k3 "Same as it never was" - Raph went balistic when Leo was slain despite the fact that they'd been pretty much hating each other's guts for several years. As Raph was dying, he crawled towards Leo, called his name, and collapsed right next to him. I cried the first time I saw that ep... and it's one of my all-time faves.

"Tales of Leo" - Has Raph cried in any other episode? (I haven't seen them all, just curious). Though I think his tears were for both Leo and the fact that Leo had become leader instead of him.

In the first movie - Leo remained in constant vigil over Raph until he recovered. Oh, and it was a Kodak moment.

Fourth movie - Splinter mentioned that Leo's absence had been especially hard on Raph.

And don't forget what Raph was about to do to Karai when Leo fell on her sword in Exodus. Tore her a new one!

I haven't seen too much ofRaph get all over protective of Mikey, but I have seen him get vengeful on Leo's behalf.

[Rooish]

And don't forget what Raph was about to do to Karai when Leo fell on her sword in Exodus. Tore her a new one!

I haven't seen too much ofRaph get all over protective of Mikey, but I have seen him get vengeful on Leo's behalf.

Hm ... in the new show I see a lot of Raph protecting Mikey. In "Bishop's Gambit," the Turtles are fighting the Bishop-clone thing, and Raph shoves Mikey out of the way, then does a backflip to avoid being hit by something the clone threw. I thought it was a cute little added touch to the scene. Actually, Raph is often shoving Mikey out of the way of danger... I think he did twice in "Return of Savanti Romero, Part 1." In "What a Croc" and "Hunted," Raph freaks out both times when he thinks Leatherhead killed Mikey, more than his brothers or even his father did. He hasn't really seemed too vengeful, but I assume that's because he found out that Mikey wasn't dead before fighting Leatherhead.

[Warhorse]

Hm ... in the new show I see a lot of Raph protecting Mikey. In "Bishop's Gambit," the Turtles are fighting the Bishop-clone thing, and Raph shoves Mikey out of the way, then does a backflip to avoid being hit by something the clone threw. I thought it was a cute little added touch to the scene. Actually, Raph is often shoving Mikey out of the way of danger... I think he did twice in "Return of Savanti Romero, Part 1." In "What a Croc" and "Hunted," Raph freaks out both times when he thinks Leatherhead killed Mikey, more than his brothers or even his father did. He hasn't really seemed too vengeful, but I assume that's because he found out that Mikey wasn't dead before fighting Leatherhead.


But I've seen Raph use himself as a shield on numerous occasions. He did it for Keno in TMNT 2 (I know, bad example, but I thougt that was one of the better parts of the movie) and Raph again sheilded Casey against the thowing stars in the new movie. I think the over protectiveness, or willingness to defend someone (like we saw he did in TMNT 1 for April's sake) is just in his character.

But what I have seen, when any of the Turtles fall, it seems Raph is more effected by Leo's fall than anyone elses, and vice versa.

[Jo Dawn]

Don and Casey hit it off though with the motorhead trait, although Don and Casey have been known to fight (in the movie and some of the original comics)

That's only in the first movie. And ONLY while they were working on the van. The rest of the time... I think there's a bit of contempt there.

Or, perhaps they mutated over a period of hours or days in this order: Raph, Mike, Don, Leo. Or, maybe even: Don, Leo, Mike, Raph. Or, possibly: Mike, Don, Raph, Leo.

Laird says Leo, Don, Raph, Mike.


April and Don hit it off in the original comics and 2k3 series because of the technological aspect. Although, in the first movie, Raph and April hit it off because Raph saves April. So there's a bit of a crush there. But yeah, that can be a new thread if you all so desire.

*coughs* I sooo want to comment here, hehe...

[heretic888]

Laird says Leo, Don, Raph, Mike.

Source??

I ask because I remember a distinctively different answer from one of the Mirage letter columns from back in the day.

[Roseangelo]

Source??

I ask because I remember a distinctively different answer from one of the Mirage letter columns from back in the day.

Source is Eastman AND Laird. They've both stated this. We asked Kevin in person a few years ago, so I can't point you written source. Jo recalls Peter saying the same, although I'm not sure where that comes from.

[heretic888]

Source is Eastman AND Laird. They've both stated this. We asked Kevin in person a few years ago, so I can't point you written source. Jo recalls Peter saying the same, although I'm not sure where that comes from.

Ah, I see. Interesting....

[iris]

Heretic, are you talking about mutation order as something different from ages?

[Rooish]

But I've seen Raph use himself as a shield on numerous occasions. He did it for Keno in TMNT 2 (I know, bad example, but I thougt that was one of the better parts of the movie) and Raph again sheilded Casey against the thowing stars in the new movie. I think the over protectiveness, or willingness to defend someone (like we saw he did in TMNT 1 for April's sake) is just in his character.

But what I have seen, when any of the Turtles fall, it seems Raph is more effected by Leo's fall than anyone elses, and vice versa.

Hm, that's true, over the span of all the TMNT versions, Raph has tried to save a lot of people. I was just using examples from 2k3, and although I should have taken all versions into account, in 2k3 it seems that Raph is equally protective of both Leo and Mike, at least to me. Plus, well ... I guess in the first movie, Leo is in vigil over Raph, but I wonder if he would have been over any of his brothers? And I wonder if Raph would have taken it hardest if Don or Mikey had left instead in the new movie (not that that's likely)? I dunno, those just don't seem like exclusive examples.

[Time Mistress]

Well, SAINW shows how the team falls apart without Don just as the new movie shows how the team falls apart without Leo or Raph. I think it's a natural theme of TMNT that the team falls apart if any of the four aren't there.

Raph kept vigil over Leo in Mirage just as Leo kept vigil over Raph in the first movie. In Mirage, April is closest to Don and least close to Raph while Casey is most close to Raph and least close to Don. The car repair scene that Don and Casey were doing in the movie was originally Raph and Casey in the comic.

April writes in her diary on Raph and his vigil:

"Raphael scares me. The rest of the guys I can feel for, worry for, but not Raph. Raph runs hot and cold, very unbalanced, unpredictable. I keep my distance. Lately I've noticed he doesn't sleep much. He's always the first up and the last to bed. I think I've heard him leaving the house late at night, too. I wonder what he's doing...standing guard?"

Casey to Don, TMNT Vol. 1 #49

"For all the time we've spent together, I don't know you...an' why is that?"

Just to throw Shadow into the mix. She's closest to Mike who is the only uncle she has a special nickname for - Rooish. When the TMNT decided to move out and find different places to live on their own for a while, Mike opted to stay behind and live with Casey and April for a while and helped babysit Shadow.

That said, Raph has made himself her main protector. Shadow's a good kid but she can be a bit rebelious. Raph knows from his own experience what such a kid can be like cause he was one himself. It's a fun dynamic to see Shadow realize yet again that her Uncle Raph is one step ahead of her and then see Raph trying to lecture her Leo style to keep her in line. Of course she's not likely to listen, leaving Raph with a taste of what Leo when through all those years ago with Raph (and still does on occasion). ;)

[Jo Dawn]

I don't think Raph knows HOW to talk to Don at all.

I can agree with that.

There's alot of good ideas in this thread. Quite some good analysis.

[The Shelf]

While we're adding so many extra characters to the mix, all this has me wondering... Which turtle is closest or most distant from Shredder? I mean, Leo has a lot in common with him since they both usually use swords. Shredder's not particularly smart like Don or funny like Mike, so I don't think he gets along too well with either of them. He does have a temper like Raph, though. I think Leo is probably closest to him, and Mike is probably most distant. I can't see Shredder ever tolerating Mike, but I think he really respects Leo as a rival.

...

For the really dull, yes, I was being sarcastic. :P

I don't think there are really any more characters that we can cover except Splinter, but I think he has a pretty equal relationship with each of the turtles. If he didn't, then he wouldn't make such a great father for them.

[Rooish]

Raph kept vigil over Leo in Mirage just as Leo kept vigil over Raph in the first movie.

April writes in her diary on Raph and his vigil:

"Raphael scares me. The rest of the guys I can feel for, worry for, but not Raph. Raph runs hot and cold, very unbalanced, unpredictable. I keep my distance. Lately I've noticed he doesn't sleep much. He's always the first up and the last to bed. I think I've heard him leaving the house late at night, too. I wonder what he's doing...standing guard?"


I agree with your points about who's closest to Shadow. However, I have to be contrary here, so forgive me. I'm not sure who exactly Raphael was standing vigil over in that issue, because Leonardo was awake, running around the woods hunting deer. Raph wasn't watching over Leo specifically. I think Raph was just traumatised about the Foot breaking into April's apartment, and he was watching over everyone.

The Shelf, I suppose it was inevitable that the topic of which turtle was closest to Splinter would come up. I think that Splinter can be a good father if he treats all his sons fairly and lovingly, but he can still have more of a bond (be "closer to") particular sons. I think he's closer with Leo and Raph. I think he is less able to identify with Donatello and Michelangelo, although he does give them advice and treat them well. I think that Mikey is closer with his brothers than his sensei, and Don is just ... solitary. ;)

[triplexxx]

The Shelf, I suppose it was inevitable that the topic of which turtle was closest to Splinter would come up. I think that Splinter can be a good father if he treats all his sons fairly and lovingly, but he can still have more of a bond (be "closer to") particular sons. I think he's closer with Leo and Raph. I think he is less able to identify with Donatello and Michelangelo, although he does give them advice and treat them well. I think that Mikey is closer with his brothers than his sensei, and Don is just ... solitary.
Or on the other hand, he can bond/relate/identify to all his sons, just in different ways. For instance with Leonardo, he believes in seriousness and diligence. With Raphael, Splinter can also experience anger (especially considering his Master's tragedy) and feels passionate about protecting his family. With Donatello, well, he believes in thinking things through and making violence a last resort. With Michaelangelo, Splinter does believe a positive mental attitude is beneficial.

[Time Mistress]

I agree with your points about who's closest to Shadow. However, I have to be contrary here, so forgive me. I'm not sure who exactly Raphael was standing vigil over in that issue, because Leonardo was awake, running around the woods hunting deer. Raph wasn't watching over Leo specifically. I think Raph was just traumatised about the Foot breaking into April's apartment, and he was watching over everyone.

Yeah, it's not so much a personal vigil over Leo as it's one over the whole family. I think Leo's vigil over Raph was more personal because he felt responsible for arguing with Raph which caused Raph to go out and get hurt. When Leo got hurt, he was ambushed during his normal morning training.

As for Splinter, good analysis on how Splinter relates to his sons tripplexxx.

[Sage Ninja]

oooh, nice topic. I love ones like this. Kudus Rooish ;)

I think it really depends on the medium. In the classic 90's toon I think Leonardo and Dontello had a pretty close relationship. They where the two more dedicated and serious turtles so I think they must have found comfert in each others company. I also think that they where the two smarter turtles and probably where able to click with each other on a intellectual level even if they wheren't the same type of intelligence. Leonardo in the old toon seemed to be into lititure and the fine arts and even though it isn't on the same level as Donatello's technical genious I think they where both up there enough to appriciate each other.

Michaelangelo and Raphael in the old toon seemed pretty close too, but I don't think it was necassarily because they shared any signicant interests with each other. I think it was mostly that they where just the two least serious turtles and bonded over. Like in the new toon Rapahel and Michaelangelo seem to have a weird relationship. Rapahel seems to delight in picking on Michaelangelo and taking shots at his intelligence, which Michaelangelo doesn't seem to appriciate to much, but yet they seem to both genuanly care for each other. Rapahel crys when he thinks Michaelangelo is dead in the episode where he meets Mondo Geko.

But over all I think Leoanrdo, and Donatello had the closest relationship in the old toon.

[Sage Ninja]

In the New Toon, this is a toughy because the turtles relationships are lot more complex and multi-faceted in this medium.

I think it is toss-up between Leo and Raph and Don and Mikey.

As for closest relationship between the two groups? I think Leonardo, and Raphael are the closest to one another and are more fiercely protective of each other. There are multiple signs of this on how they click with each other and worry over each others saftey. City at War is a good example, as well as Shredder Strikes back , Same is it Never Was and Exodus. There are are even signs on how well they seem intuned with each others emotions. Like Raphael realizing Leonardo needed to work out his demons in I,Monster.

Donatello and Michaelangelo just don't have that type of understanding or closness with each other that Raphael and Leonardo have. In fact the only thing that I see that puts Mikey and Don into each other spheres is the fact that Leo and Raph lock horns every once in a while. I even feel that their relationship isn't even on equal terms. Doantello more often than not seems like he has to baby-sit Mikey and mearly puts up with him. In domestic situations and in battle. I would even so far as to say that Mikey feels more strongly toward Don than he does toward Mikey. Like it is generally Mikey that seeks out his company, rather than the other way around.

With Leo and Raph their realtion is both on equal terms and they seem to feel as strongly toward one as the other does.

Now for Rapahel and Michaelangelo :roll: their relationship is weird to say the very least. Like Leonardo and Raphael there seems to be a love hate relationship, but on a completely diffrent spectrume. For the most part they both seem to not like each other to well and are at each other throats. They are both atgonistic toward each other. Mikey annoys Raph and Raph insults Mikey and beats him up in just about every episode. However in more casual and harmonious times they both seem to like to kick back and do fun things with each and seem to click in their more fun loving side of their personalities. In this sence it seems that when Mikey isn't trying to get a rise out of Raph, he can bring out his less angry and petulant side which is actually more social and easy going and care free. And in dangerous situations Raphael seems extremely protective of Mikey and is the first to show concern for him and vice verca. So their realationship seems to be a like a double edged sword, going from one extreme to the other, and they both seem to incite the strongest reactions from each other.

On a whole I think their realtionship has under gone the most strain and changes. Leo and Raph's "rivalry" seems to be resolved after Leonardo gets hurt and stays consistent from then out. Michaelangelo and Raphael's relationship seems like it went through alot, with most of the biggies happening off screen before the show started. I think Raphael and Michaelangelo where closer when they where kids and had more in common with each other then. But as they got older Rapahel got agnystier and became less and less able to indentfy with Mikey's persona and the special love hate bond between Raph and Leo happened, and as a result Raph began to feel Mikey was annoying. By the first season their relationship was strained but they where still close. By season three (after the battle Nexus) Rapahel and Mikey seemed like their relationship had become more rocky and volitale and it was pretty much reduced to them picking at each other. It just seemed that they held more animosity toward each other than what they did in earlier seasons.

In other words based on what I've observed of the two, it seems Rapahel and Michaelangelo where closest and had more common when they where kids and then things steadly seemed to get more distant toward each other first when Rapah started focusing on Leo, and then became volitle after the battle nexus ore deal.

I think some one in another thread noted this, but in a FF episode Mikey makes him self a Raphael puppet and talks to it through out the whole episode. The poster remarked on how far removed emotionally Mikey must be toward Rapahel is he went out his way and made him self friendlier version of his brother in a puppet.

[ninjitsu_magic_47]

That all makes sense. I personally think that Mikey and Raph have the closest realstionship. That time during the Shredder Strikes, I think it was, proved that. When Mikey was being a drama king and was pretending to die. Raph was sorta freaking out, which I thought was cool. And those two are constantly paired up with each other.

I also think that Leo and Mikey have a good realtionship as well. In Darkness within, Mikey's vision or whatever was Leo joining the dark side, why wasn't it Raph? And Leo did help him in Grudge match. And there are other examples, but I hafta go.

[odupianist]

Sage Ninja, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Mikey Raph thing.

their relationship is weird to say the very least.

From the way you described it, it sounds like your typical naggy little pest brother with the protective yet annoyed big brother. Anyone with siblings could tell ya that lol. I think Raph and Mikey have been closest on terms of brotherly relationships throughout their life. Yeah Leo and Raph have their competitive moments and are close, but I've stated my analysis of that already. I just think Raph and Mike's bickering and nagging back and forth at each other is your typical sibling relationship.

Other note, here is the Halloween pic I've mentioned before. I'm Mike and the friend of mine is Raph.

[Rooish]

Drat it all, Sage. I had finally voted for Raph and Mike, and then you posted that. ;)

I definitely agree that the two were closer when they were younger, but now they don't have as much respect for each other, at least in the 2k3 series and the new movie. They do really care when the other is in trouble, but they push each other's buttons so damn much. It makes me sad, actually, because in the old comics athey re so much closer, and I think the 2k3 series made Mikey a little too, um, immature (understandable; kids need their comic relief), and this sort of forces Raph away from him. They clearly have a very strong relationship, but I dunno if it's really a good one.

It does make me kind of sad. I hope those two can become closer again when they both mature a little.

[ninjitsu_magic_47]

I still think that Mikey and Raph have the closest realtionship, but there are other things to consider.

Leo and Mikey are close, Leo being the "oldest" would be protective over Mikey who is the "youngest"

[Gothamite]

I voted for Don and Mikey. In the movies and the new toon, they always seemed like 'comic relief' while Raph and Leo were fighting.

[Ava Collier]

A-HA! I voted Raph, and Mikey...that's what it says in my husband's TMNT and other strangeness book *cough*
I probably would have said that anyway.
It wasn't as evident as much as in 2k3 though.

The real reason I'm posting, is because my inner Ava has been thinking a lot on the Father, and sons bond. I'm going to sound like the total geek I am, but I never really thought about it, or noticed until I started playing Ava. I feel like I know the characters on a personal level. Each one of the boys displays something about Master Splinter.
Leonardo represents his honor, and focus. Raphael represents a rage, and thirst for vengeance that Splinter himself has experienced. While he seems to be completely inept at understanding machines, Splinter has shown a curiousity I believe to be represented by Donatello. Michelangelo represents Splinter's wisdom. Yeah you heard me...don't laugh! >.< I don't even think Mikey gets it, but he's responsible for pointing out quite a few things the others don't seem to notice. He also knows what makes the others tick. *coughBATTLENEXUScoughRAPHcough*

[Magdolin]

I think Don and Mikey closest in the first movie when they first meet Shredder.
And i think Leo and Raph are closest in the first too! Heck! They all are.:D lol

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

A-HA! I voted Raph, and Mikey...that's what it says in my husband's TMNT and other strangeness book *cough*
I probably would have said that anyway.
It wasn't as evident as much as in 2k3 though.

The real reason I'm posting, is because my inner Ava has been thinking a lot on the Father, and sons bond. I'm going to sound like the total geek I am, but I never really thought about it, or noticed until I started playing Ava. I feel like I know the characters on a personal level. Each one of the boys displays something about Master Splinter.
Leonardo represents his honor, and focus. Raphael represents a rage, and thirst for vengeance that Splinter himself has experienced. While he seems to be completely inept at understanding machines, Splinter has shown a curiousity I believe to be represented by Donatello. Michelangelo represents Splinter's wisdom. Yeah you heard me...don't laugh! >.< I don't even think Mikey gets it, but he's responsible for pointing out quite a few things the others don't seem to notice. He also knows what makes the others tick. *coughBATTLENEXUScoughRAPHcough*

Thats a...damn good analysis.

[Sage Ninja]

Sage Ninja, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Mikey Raph thing.



From the way you described it, it sounds like your typical naggy little pest brother with the protective yet annoyed big brother. Anyone with siblings could tell ya that lol. I think Raph and Mikey have been closest on terms of brotherly relationships throughout their life. Yeah Leo and Raph have their competitive moments and are close, but I've stated my analysis of that already. I just think Raph and Mike's bickering and nagging back and forth at each other is your typical sibling relationship.

Actually I do have siblings i'm the middle child of three, so I know what it is like to be in both big and little sister roles. I didn't exactly mean to imply that I think that Rapahel and Michaelangelo aren't close because they are (actually I like their brothership the most out of all of them) its just that they seem to have genuanly rocky relationship with each other. And I also think think that they where closer (or at least on more friendly terms) in the earlier part of the season. I also think that the whole Battle nexus things put a strain on their brothership, I noticed after that that most of Mikey and Raph's interaction consist of Mikey taunting Raph and Raph threatening Mikey with bodily harm. It funny on the surface but it just seems a bit strained to me.

I definitely agree that the two were closer when they were younger, but now they don't have as much respect for each other, at least in the 2k3 series and the new movie. They do really care when the other is in trouble, but they push each other's buttons so damn much. It makes me sad, actually, because in the old comics athey re so much closer, and I think the 2k3 series made Mikey a little too, um, immature (understandable; kids need their comic relief), and this sort of forces Raph away from him. They clearly have a very strong relationship, but I dunno if it's really a good one.

It does make me kind of sad. I hope those two can become closer again when they both mature a little.

Yeah I think most of the strain between Raph and Mikey is Mikey's fault believe it or not. Rapahel only ever acts sever toward Mikey when he is provoked by him. Just watch how Rapahel goes from being merly irked at mikey for skipping class to totally pissed off and threatening when Mikey yet again throws his battle nexus win in his face in Grudge Match. I think Mikey's taunting and rubbing his accomplishments in Raphael's face pushes him away from him. And the thing that is sort of a kicker is I trully belive Mikey does this just to get Rapahel's attention and get him to notice him, amnd all it gets him is negative attention. :ohwell: I think because out of all his brothers Rapahel is the most out goinf and fun loving, that Mikey tries for his attention the most.

[Protoman]

Hmmm that's a toss up between Leo and Raph (while a lot of hate have mutual respect for one another) and Mike and Raph (again a lot of hate.. yet a lot of love)

[Warhorse]

Hey, this is off topic, but within topic.

Out of all the Turtles, who do you all think you would best get along with?

[Rooish]

Sage, I agree with you (again ;) ). I think that it's a cyclic thing ... Mike doesn't know how to get Raph's attention any other way, but with his annoyingness, he pushes away Raph.

As for which Turtle I would most get along with, Warhorse ... good question. I am a lot like Mike in some ways, so I'd say him. Him or Don. They're the more good-natured ones.

[Warhorse]

Yeah, I'd probably be best buds with Mikey, minus all the comic books and video games stuff.

[The Shelf]

I'd get along best with Don and Leo since I have the most in common with them, but more so with Don. Mike would get on my nerves after a while, and I'd probably butt heads with Raph just like everyone else does. I think I could get along fine with Raph, but to a lesser extent than Don and Leo.

[Spike Spiegel]

I think Mike and don are closest....

I'd get along best with Mike, seeing as I love comics and video games as well:D :D :D .

I wonder what Mike would think of Marvel's Stupid--I mean, Civil--War.

[Keno]

as a youngest sibling, i think i see Leo and Mikey as being closer than other people think (definitely not the closest pairing, but some people seem to think they are completely opposites)

I think there is some sort of older-younger brother thing there... I especially like how Leo can lose his temper to Raph, but most of the time, he holds back with Mikey. He shows patience and tolerance towards him.

[Revan]

I think there is some sort of older-younger brother thing there... I especially like how Leo can lose his temper to Raph, but most of the time, he holds back with Mikey. He shows patience and tolerance towards him.

Probably because mike has no problem with authority. Raph wants to lead himself but mike doens't seem to mind leo's leadership

[Cassidy]

I'd probably get along best with Leo.

[Ava Collier]

Thats a...damn good analysis.

*bow* Why thank you my dear! ^_^ Don't let me fool you into thinking I'm an intelligent life form though. You'd begin to expect it, and I would hate to dissappoint. >.>


As for who I would best get along with, thaaaat would probably be Mikey. His cuteness would keep me from killing him. This is how my kittens survived, so I know I'll fall for it. Plus I could get him totally addicted to World of Warcraft >.>
FOR THE HORDE!
Raph and I would probably clash like a bright yellow jumpsuit! <,< I have quite a temper myself, although even when I'm mad, I still can't take anything seriously. I'd end up rolling my eyes at Leonardo a lot, and I could only see myself annoying the hell out of poor Donny. "What's that? What does it do? How does it work? Can I try? Hey, can you fix/make this for me? Voulez vous coucher avec moi?" ...yeah.

[Sunshine]

That'd totally be me and Raph! We have the most fun! And we have some of the best fights too! He may be grumpy, moody, and have a face that looks like something outta a horror movie but-whoa!

Dat's it! I'll show you a horror movie you lil...

Whoa! Come on bro! I was only kiddin! Bro? Bro? WHAA!

[ninjitsu_magic_47]

Me and Mikey. He's probably the only person on earth that could handle my immatureness.

[Sunshine]

Hehe I think you'd get along well with Ava and I then. ^_^'

[Krakko]

this thread is kinda gay

[bullet]

donnie and mikey i'd think.

mike complains to don a lot about how raph picks on him, etc. never to leo that i remembered...and they seem to always be hanging together, with mike buggin the shell out of don when he's busy with something serious.

[Rooish]

this thread is kinda gay

Can this dude get another warning?

[Jo Dawn]

He may be working on it...

Remember the old adage: If you don't have something nice (or productive, possibly) to say, don't say anything at all. ;)

[Warhorse]

Can this dude get another warning?

I know, right! I don't condone homosexuality, but I have enough respect for people's way of life to not use it as some sort of cheap shot offensive slander!

[Jester]

Raph and Donnie...if only because of the Future arc from the Archie comics.

[ninjitsu_magic_47]

Who's Ava?

[Rooish]

Been wondering that one myself. ;)

Where were we, anyway?

[Sunshine]

Ava Collier my roomate and the one who got me to join here in the first place. She's still new here too but we both already love the site.

[Sage Ninja]

as a youngest sibling, i think i see Leo and Mikey as being closer than other people think (definitely not the closest pairing, but some people seem to think they are completely opposites)

I think there is some sort of older-younger brother thing there... I especially like how Leo can lose his temper to Raph, but most of the time, he holds back with Mikey. He shows patience and tolerance towards him.


I for one am a really big fan of the relationship between Michelangelo and Leonardo in the 2k3 series. I just love the chemistry between the two of them and their interactions. I agree I think after Leo and Raph and their complicated relationship Mikey and Leo have a great brotherly bond. And even though they have very diffrent personalites they seem to get along very well with each other, and share a delicate respect with each other. And they seem to bring out a lot of good out of each other. When they are together Leonardo relaxes and becomes more playful and carefree. And I notice that when Mikey is alone with Leonardo he seems to step up to the plate taps in to his potentcial.

And you are right I notice that with Michelangelo, Leonardo shows a lot of tolerance and paticents and rarely loses his temper. But unlike what some one else speculating that it is because Mikey doesn't have trouble with authority and thats why he doesn't lose his temper with him, I don't think that is really the case. I think, unlike the other turtles, Leonardo is the only brother that respects Michelangelo's abilities as a warrior and his unique insight, and i think Mikey sences this and lets his true potencial come out more so around Leo than Raph or Don because he knows that with Leo it would be aknowledged and not shot down, and Mikey respects him for that.

I also think that Leo is the only brother that is even slightly intuned with Michelangelo's feelings and motivations and thats why he exercises more tolerance toward Mikey. Donatello and Raphael, for all their close interactions with Mikey, don't truly get Mikey or are intuned with his feelings, and i think thats why get so annoyed with him. Leonardo at least shows he is some what aware of what makes Mikey tick. Perfect example of this is Grudge match, he didn't have to lend Mikey a hand but he did, especially when Mikey was acting like a jerk about the whole thing. I mean Leonardo was subjected to Michaelangelo's bragging and smugness as Raph and Don was but he still decided to help him out.

I love Leo and Mikey's brotherly bond in the 2k3 series, its very unique and strong.

[Rooish]

Good points. I always love Leo and Mikey's pair-ups. Especially in Good Genes, Part 2. I thought it was great that Leo made Mikey come with him, while Raph went off to do his own thing.

Hey guys, I was wondering ... I think earlier in this thread, we were discussing an issue of the old TMNT where Don and Raph get in a fight. I think Don was really using the harsher insults at that time. Do you think maybe Peter Laird was pissed at Kevin Eastman at that moment (as Don is Laird's favourite and Raph is Eastman's favourite?)

[Ava Collier]

Who's Ava?

I have no idea.

[Sunshine]

I have no idea.


Me either :P

[Cascadia]

do not look at me for an answer...I have no idea.

[Roseangelo]

Do you think maybe Peter Laird was pissed at Kevin Eastman at that moment (as Don is Laird's favourite and Raph is Eastman's favourite?)

No, I honestly don't. That was an early issue when they were still genuinely friends (well, I assume so, at least).

[Leonardo's_Girl]

Don and Mikey seem (to me anyway) close in their brotherly and friendship relationship, because they're bascially just hanging out, while Raph has anger management problems, and while Leo is pretty close to Master Splinter, and being the most mature of the turtles. Raph and Leo do share their fair-share of brotherly relationships, since they seem to be conflicting against each other, well mainly Raph, because he makes wrong decisons, and Leo knows what's right or not, and he's trying to be a good leader and brother towards the team, and Raph thinks he's getting out of hand with it. They all seem to have good connections with it comes to brotherhood, as well as their own personal issues and conflicts to deal with.

[Sage Ninja]

Don and Mikey seem (to me anyway) close in their brotherly and friendship relationship, because they're bascially just hanging out

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I'm just not that big a fan of the Donatello and Michaelangelo relationship. Especially in the new toon. I've always just felt like their relationship was forced do to the rivalary between Raph and Leo, and they just hang out because there is no one else to interact with. Yeah I mean they seem to get along with each other because they are are more laid back souls than Raphael and Leonardo, but other than that I find my self mildly irritated by their interactions. I don't know I just find their maturity levels to be more jarringly apparant when they interact with each other than with any of the others. I've been watching the episodes where they are alone with each other (most recently Monster Hunter) and seems more often than not like Don is baby-sitting Mikey.

[bullet]

DON! raph called me weird..

you're just sensitive.

that always made me smile.

[jenna]

In my opinion, Raphael's relationship with Leonardo is very close on a more spiritual level, rather than on an "I love my brother, Raph - he's the coolest" kind of way. They are both quite dependent on each other in an unspoken way, for examples already mentioned in this thread (which, by the way, I think is an awesome topic, Rooish!) like Leo watching over Raph in film 1, Raph's tears over injured Leo etc.

As for Raph and Michelangelo, they are polar opposites and therefore create a good balance. Whilst Raph can interject some seriousness into Mikey's life, and some perspective and pull him out of his fantasy world, Mikey can bring humour and laughter to Raph's life, can easily pull him out of a mood (I'm thinking particularly of the 2k3 dynamic as interaction between them in any of the films is minimal). As someone already mentioned, Raphael could well have killed himself by now were it not for Michelangelo pulling him out of his head.

I'm not voting because I think it's both. I do think, however, that if any of the turtles were to die or leave for good, Raph would be the one to fall to pieces, so in that sense, Don factors too.

[Magdolin]

Like i said....they all are close to each other...i mean, they comfort each other when needed. when they're all there, it seems that they become one. Like all the battles they fought they just somehow knew what they were going to do. Like Leo has this face, that just shows evreybody what he's going to do. it's like that with all of them. So i believe that they are very close to eachother.

[Rooish]

Wow guys, there are some awesome thoughts being posted here! Yay, I'm glad people liked the thread.

I agree that all of the boys are very close. I mean, except for Splinter, all they had for 15 years was each other. It's almost impossible to imagine how you would get along with the only 3 peers you'd known, and been isolated with, for your entire childhood. I'm surprised, not at how close they all are, but at how well they usually get along, considering.

I still think it's either Raph-Leo or Raph-Mike that are the "closest," but part of the appeal of the TMNT is undeniably the fact that they all have very fascinating relationships with each other.

[Aignatius]

I'd get along best with Don, because he wouldn't think my ideas were barmy. And he'd know what barmy meant. :lol:

As far as who is closest, I'd guess Mike and Don.

[Roseangelo]

I love reading these types of discussions, because it shows just how much depth there is to these characters when you can run yourself in crazy circles trying to analyze them.

But it also depresses me, because how often have the characters ever showcased that depth that we see in them? 2K3 provided some truely great stuff, but it's still a kids' cartoon. The comic books, IMO, lost it after volume 2, and that was 15 years ago.

I dunno, I've been on a weird downward spiral for a couple weeks as I wonder exactly what direction this franchise is going. Whether you like FF or not, it's just not set up to deliver character stories. So then is the only thing we can hope for a second movie? I just think we deserve more than that. These characters should be bigger than that.

Ugh, and I'm rambling. Ignore me... :dead:

[Aignatius]

Ugh, and I'm rambling. Ignore me... :dead:

Nah. Can't ignore an Angelo. 8)

[Rooish]

I love reading these types of discussions, because it shows just how much depth there is to these characters when you can run yourself in crazy circles trying to analyze them.

But it also depresses me, because how often have the characters ever showcased that depth that we see in them? 2K3 provided some truely great stuff, but it's still a kids' cartoon. The comic books, IMO, lost it after volume 2, and that was 15 years ago.

I dunno, I've been on a weird downward spiral for a couple weeks as I wonder exactly what direction this franchise is going. Whether you like FF or not, it's just not set up to deliver character stories. So then is the only thing we can hope for a second movie? I just think we deserve more than that. These characters should be bigger than that.

Ugh, and I'm rambling. Ignore me... :dead:

Well, Tales of the TMNT has a few good character pieces, doesn't it? (ponders...) like the Michelangelo/Klunk one ... unless you were the person who hated that issue?

[jenna]

I dunno, I've been on a weird downward spiral for a couple weeks as I wonder exactly what direction this franchise is going. Whether you like FF or not, it's just not set up to deliver character stories. So then is the only thing we can hope for a second movie? I just think we deserve more than that. These characters should be bigger than that.

Ugh, and I'm rambling. Ignore me... :dead:

I wish I could say something to make you feel better.... I was a late joiner to 2k3 fandom (for a long time I couldn't deal with fact the turtles didn't have pupils in their eyes - makes them harder to relate to - but I quickly overcame this hurdle after actually sitting down and watching a few episodes) and was just getting really into it when Fast Forward ruined everything. So I know how you feel. But despite its faults, the new film is comforting because you can see how hard they tried to please us fans with the nitty gritty. i can only hope that Mirage will get up off their arses and push for more of the same.

[Roseangelo]

Well, Tales of the TMNT has a few good character pieces, doesn't it? (ponders...) like the Michelangelo/Klunk one ... unless you were the person who hated that issue?

No, you're right, there has been some good Tales stuff. While I do like the Mikey/Klunk story, I really didn't care for the art, which took away from liking it as much as I could have. :ohwell:

[Cassidy]

As for the Raph-Mikey dynamic, there's one scene I remember in "The Ninja Tribunal" episode that I thought was hilarious. The guys were running along the rooftops for the first time in a while; Mikey got hold of some boxers and was playing around with them. He was clowning around and wasn't annoying anybody in particular, but out of NOWHERE... BAM! Raph totally plowed into him. It was so hard they both ended up on a neighboring roof.

I had a ball with that little bit of the scene.

[Sage Ninja]

As for the Raph-Mikey dynamic, there's one scene I remember in "The Ninja Tribunal" episode that I thought was hilarious. The guys were running along the rooftops for the first time in a while; Mikey got hold of some boxers and was playing around with them. He was clowning around and wasn't annoying anybody in particular, but out of NOWHERE... BAM! Raph totally plowed into him. It was so hard they both ended up on a neighboring roof.

I had a ball with that little bit of the scene.

why the hell did Raphael do that? I like that Raph and Mikey have alot of physical contact with one another but really some times I get a little WTF was that for? :ohwell: When Raph creams Mikey.

[Warhorse]

why the hell did Raphael do that? I like that Raph and Mikey have alot of physical contact with one another but really some times I get a little WTF was that for? :ohwell: When Raph creams Mikey.

Mikey didn't seem bothered by the clobber Raph gave him. :D

[Cassidy]

Nope, not bothered at all :-D

[Shark_Blade]

I see Don & Mike are close in the first movie and the 2k3 Mike and Raph got a lot of action together. Bam on Mikey's head, push Mikey then he fell to the floor, knock him up some more. wow.

[tilallr1]

After watching all the movies and the TMNT cartoons recently I would have to say Raphael and Leo and the closest, based on those source materials. Especially evident in the Alternative Universe Episode with Donatello. Raph cries out only when Leo dies. No concern when Mikey dies. Not concerned when Don is getting pounded by the Shredder. Its a very emotional episode, but it shows just how strong the bond is between Raph and Leo.

Raph and Mike have more of an Older Brother / Younger Brother relationship, with Raph always picking on Mikey. Particularily because he is an idiot half the time. Its evident all his brothers care about Mikey, but he really is the misfit of the bunch. Raph is just the most intolerant so therefore he gives Mikey the pounding. It doesn't show they are closer. If anything, more apart.

[Jamboree]

I say Don & Mikey. They seem close in the movies (although I haven't seen the newest one), in the show and in other incarnations I've seen. Seeing as they're alittle more light on how they take everyday life and studying.

[Revan]

Raph and Mike have more of an Older Brother / Younger Brother relationship, with Raph always picking on Mikey. Particularily because he is an idiot half the time. Its evident all his brothers care about Mikey, but he really is the misfit of the bunch. Raph is just the most intolerant so therefore he gives Mikey the pounding. It doesn't show they are closer. If anything, more apart.

I often feel bad for Mike when bully Raph whacks him. Sometimes it seems so forced and unnecessary

[tilallr1]

And do you notice none of his brothers or splinter ever say anything to him. As though, thanks Raph for hitting Mikey for us. But at least Mikey got Raph back at the Battle Nexus by kicking his shell.

I often feel bad for Mike when bully Raph whacks him. Sometimes it seems so forced and unnecessary

[ninjitsu_magic_47]

That was why I was so glad when Mikey won. I laughed when Mikey beat Raph without taking out his weapons. He got what he deserved.

[Rooish]

Raph and Mike are definitely very at odds in the 2k3 series, whether or not they were intended to be very close. They have some good moments, and at times they stick up for each other and defend each other, but their closeness is much less interrupted in the comics.

[Tinuvielsdreams]

There is one scene in the 2K3 series in the first few eppys they guys think they are going to go down and Raph says something along the line of "It's been good..." and "Mikey says even me Raph?" and Raph replies especially you Mikey"

I love that its a really nice moment and of course they end up kicking butt...
I think Mike and Raph are very close underneath it all...

In the movie(s) world (all live action and 2007 alike) I would lean more to Mike/Donny, Leo/Raph
With Raph and Leo all the fighting and the constant trials for each others approval or trying to constantly out do each other, that has to be the product of one very close relationship, dysfunctional but close...

[Sage Ninja]

After watching all the movies and the TMNT cartoons recently I would have to say Raphael and Leo and the closest, based on those source materials. Especially evident in the Alternative Universe Episode with Donatello. Raph cries out only when Leo dies. No concern when Mikey dies. Not concerned when Don is getting pounded by the Shredder. Its a very emotional episode, but it shows just how strong the bond is between Raph and Leo.

yeah I agree. In the 2k3 series Leonardo and Raphael seem to have this very close bond. One that became unbreakable after Leonardo's accident with the Shredder and they almost lost him. This is where you see some very nice brotherly interaction where they become closer and their realtionship solderfies. After this the two get along much better and you get the most emotional freak out reactions from them one of them is in danger. Like the way Raphael went ape sh*t on Karai's ass when she stabbed Leonardo. Their realtionship is just much more closer and on more equal terms now in the series than it was earlier, when they where always fighting.

Raph and Mike have more of an Older Brother / Younger Brother relationship, with Raph always picking on Mikey. Particularily because he is an idiot half the time. Its evident all his brothers care about Mikey, but he really is the misfit of the bunch. Raph is just the most intolerant so therefore he gives Mikey the pounding. It doesn't show they are closer. If anything, more apart.

Raphael and Michaelangelo I agree seem to be more of a cliche younger and older sibling realtionship. Where one is annoying the heck out of the other one and gets his just desserts for it. I do think that Michelangelo and Raphael where closer to each other at the start of season one in the 2k3 series. They just seemed to be on more equal wave links back then. And you can tell in the way they act toward each other. Very casual and playful. Like in the Meet Casey Jones episode when Raphael says he's sorry to Mikey and Michaelangelo just brushes it off and he even playfully smacks Raph in the head as they go to dinner. Thats some thing you'd never see Mikey do later on. I don't know, Raphael and Mikey just seemed to be on more friendly terms then. As time goes on it seems Raph become more and more intolerant of Mikey and seesm to react more aggrivated with him than what he used to. And things really went sour for them I think after the whole battle nexus fiasco...Raph and Mikey really seem become distant after that, heck there are times when it seems Raph almoist hates Mikey at this point :( . After that the only time you see them interact posetively is when one is in danger or something.

I often feel bad for Mike when bully Raph whacks him. Sometimes it seems so forced and unnecessary

yeah I think so too. Even though Mikey can be insanely annoying and deserves to get the snot smacked out of him. There are a few times when I feel things that Mikey says or does wheren't annoying enough to warrant a smack, or maybe even could have been handled a diffrent manner other than a hit. I can't remember the exact episode but there is one where the boys are in a under ground vehicle and Mikey playfully asks "are we there yet" in childish voice, and Raph punches him and says: "shut up you bone head!" Now was that really called for?

And do you notice none of his brothers or splinter ever say anything to him. As though, thanks Raph for hitting Mikey for us. But at least Mikey got Raph back at the Battle Nexus by kicking his shell

Yeah your right Leonardo and Donatello do have an air of "oh God thanks for smacking him for me" about them when Raph pounds Michaelangelo. And Splinter never really has much to say when one of the guys smacks him eighther. But then I kind of think that Splinter was the one that started the whole smacking thing any way, I think to keep Michaelangelo in line Splinter gave him a few whaps in the head and the boys saw this as an accecptable way to get Mikey to stop did like wise when Mikey got a little out of control. Like hey, Splinter does it, why not us. And i've noticed Michelangelo's head is more intimately aquanted with Splinter's cane than any of the other turtles.

That was why I was so glad when Mikey won. I laughed when Mikey beat Raph without taking out his weapons. He got what he deserved

Am I the only when that felt sorry for Raph in this? Seriously I think that Raphael had every right to feel pissed when Mikey tricked him, and then rubed it in his face.

[Warhorse]

Am I the only when that felt sorry for Raph in this? Seriously I think that Raphael had every right to feel pissed when Mikey tricked him, and then rubed it in his face.

I don't neccessarily feel sorry for Raph, but I don't exactly put Mikey as this great fighter because of one match either. The little squabble between Raph and Mikey wasn't exactly a fight, not a true fight. I mean, can you imagine this kind of fiasco being allowed on the WWF?

Also, I wonder, what would have been the outcome if the entire battle was allowed to go on, untampered (where Leo had his fair shot at the prize)

I'm not saying Mikey is not a good fighter, I believe him and Raph would be about equal if they were to focus on their weaknesses (Raph channeling his anger, Mikey learning to focus more) but what do you think would have happened if Raph got a hold of Mikey?

Eh, I guess the Battle Nexus played out for the best. Gave Mikey fans something to brag about!:P

[tilallr1]

The way I look at it, Leonardo would have won easy. I think that is why they had to eliminate him cheaply. Mikey was cheap with Raph too. He used Raph's greatest weakness against him (Since he knew him so well), his temper. It wasn't a real fight. Not like Leo and Raph in the 2007 film. Now that is a fight.

One thing about Mikey though. Master Splinter even admitted Mikey had alot of talent for the Martial Arts but he was unfocused. Could you imagine if he was a bit more like Leo. He might have been the better student. Although we wouldn't have his comic relief.

[triplexxx]

The way I look at it, Leonardo would have won easy. I think that is why they had to eliminate him cheaply. Mikey was cheap with Raph too. He used Raph's greatest weakness against him (Since he knew him so well), his temper.
Well, there's no guarantee of that. Michaelangelo doesn't treat Leonardo the way he treats Raphael.

[Cassidy]

Yeah, Mikey goes out of his way to annoy Raph (and sometimes Don, even though they are the most likely to slap him), but he doesn't seem to do that towards Leo. In 2k3, I don't recall Leo hitting him, but then I haven't seen all the eps yet. I saw Leo slap him in FF, though, at least once.

I think Mikey has a great deal of respect for Leo. He defended Leo when he "turned Raph" in season 4. In "The Darkness Within," Mikey's nightmare was Leo going bad and turning on him.

And... I thought it was really cute when he made a Leo-lantern.

Anyway, I think this discussion is really good, and it highlights the fact that the answer is just not clear-cut at all. As a whole, their family is close-knit. And out of that general tie, it's hard to determine just who is the closest.

[Seiza]

I love reading this thread. So many wonderful ideas! <3

Mikey was cheap with Raph too. He used Raph's greatest weakness against him (Since he knew him so well), his temper. It wasn't a real fight. Not like Leo and Raph in the 2007 film. Now that is a fight.
Really? I thought Mikey showed immense intelligence there. Fighting isn't just about the physical. What's wrong with using your opponent's weakness against him? Especially, in Mike's case, he'd know Raph would've totally overpowered him strength-wise.

Of course, his taunting afterwards completely killed it. :lol: But still. I thought he deserved that win against Raph.

(And it got me the cutest, most LMAO-worthy reaction from Raph. Ever.)

[ninjitsu_magic_47]

I really like how Mikey won without taking out his weapons, I also thought that it was a sign of intellegents. Leo couldn't have done it. I also agree that Mikey could be just a little more modest about winning.

[triplexxx]

Like i said....they all are close to each other...i mean, they comfort each other when needed. when they're all there, it seems that they become one. Like all the battles they fought they just somehow knew what they were going to do. Like Leo has this face, that just shows evreybody what he's going to do. it's like that with all of them. So i believe that they are very close to eachother.
Anyway, I think this discussion is really good, and it highlights the fact that the answer is just not clear-cut at all. As a whole, their family is close-knit. And out of that general tie, it's hard to determine just who is the closest.
This is how I see it: I really can't determine which two are closest, and as a whole, they're all pretty close in several ways.

[Sage Ninja]

Yeah, Mikey goes out of his way to annoy Raph (and sometimes Don, even though they are the most likely to slap him), but he doesn't seem to do that towards Leo. In 2k3, I don't recall Leo hitting him, but then I haven't seen all the eps yet. I saw Leo slap him in FF, though, at least once.

I think Mikey has a great deal of respect for Leo. He defended Leo when he "turned Raph" in season 4. In "The Darkness Within," Mikey's nightmare was Leo going bad and turning on him.

yeah I've noticed this too. Michaelangelo seems to like and push it with Donatello and Raphael and annoy them. But not so much with Leo. Leonardo just seems to have more toleramnce and paticients for Mikey than any one else does (even more so than Splinter on occassion). Though Leonardo does put Mikey in line when he acts out to much. Leoanrdo got pissy and yelled at Mikey when he was fooling in the Return to NewYork arc. And Leoanrdo does disiplign Mikey on occsian and smakcs him.

Over-all I think Michelangelo likes to stay on good terms with Leonardo so he doesn't actively harass him as much. And I think when Leonardo choose to help Michaelangelo in the Grudge Match episode instead of abandoning him it went a long way in making Michaelangelo respect him. Out of all Mikey's brothers I think he has the most respect for Leonardo. And I think if Leoanrdo had not been taken out of the battle and Leoanrdo and Michaelangelo had fought I think Leo would have won but I think Michaelangelo might have choosen to fight more seriously and given a better accounting of his skills than what he had have done with Raphael. Unlike with the other turtles I don't think Mikey is afraid to show his true potentcial with Leoanrdo.

Really? I thought Mikey showed immense intelligence there. Fighting isn't just about the physical. What's wrong with using your opponent's weakness against him? Especially, in Mike's case, he'd know Raph would've totally overpowered him strength-wise.

In most cases its not wrong to use your opponents weakness against in oder to win, you are right I think it shows intelligence and keen perception. But in the guidines of a tournament where it is the aim of the fight to physcially over power your adversary I think it was sort of wrong for Mikey to exploit Raph's weekness like that. And i'm not so convinced that Raphael would have over powered Michaelangelo in a physical fight since it was shown that Michaleangelo could fight just fine (and win) against Raph in a fair hand to hand fight if he wanted to. Mikey was just being lazy to not fight him properly in the tournament.

[Rooish]

How's this for more discussion:

Do you guys think there are uneven Turtle relationships? For example, in the new toon, it seems that, although Leo and Raph are very close, Raph likes Leo better than Leo likes Raph (although that can be attributed to the fact that Raph is a more intense-acting character and Leo is more cool and less demonstrative). Mikey seems to like Don more than Don likes him; I think Raph likes Don more, too. In the comics, I think Raph did seem to act like he liked Mike more than Mike liked Raph, although I don't see this in the new toon. Not saying that any of them dislike each other, just that the liking may be a bit uneven. What do you guys think?

[Courk]

I went for Raph and Mikey for basically the reasons everyone else has said. They seem to tease each other quite a bit, it almost seems like a game to them. On a quiet day with just the two of them around, I can see them making each other laugh constantly.

My second place vote is for Don and Leo. From my comparatively limited experience with TMNT, I've gotten the impression that Leo will listen to Don a bit quicker than he would listen to Raph or Mikey. I don't want to say Leo trusts Don more, sicne I'm sure he trusts all of them, but maybe since Donnie isn't as impulsive as the other two, Leo doesn't automatically second-guess him. With Raph and Mikey, Leo almost has to just to make sure that whatever they suggest has some thought put to it, whereas Leo knows Donnie already thought it through.

The points for Donnie-Mikey are also pretty good. I haven't seen much of it in the new toon yet, and they didn't get much time in the new movie, but they were pretty close in the 1990 movie. They probably grew close from the conflict that Leo-Raph share. They wouldn't want to be in the middle of any fights, and it's also not fun to talk to someone who is angry, so they turned to each other. Actually, they may get the second place vote. Donnie-Leo can be third. :-) From what I've seen of the new toon, though, Donnie has so far been quieter (I've seen 3 eps, not much basis here). Quiet Donnie + usual Mikey hasn't struck me as the closest bond, but I don't think I've seen them really share a scene yet.

[jenna]

How's this for more discussion:

Do you guys think there are uneven Turtle relationships? For example, in the new toon, it seems that, although Leo and Raph are very close, Raph likes Leo better than Leo likes Raph (although that can be attributed to the fact that Raph is a more intense-acting character and Leo is more cool and less demonstrative). Mikey seems to like Don more than Don likes him; I think Raph likes Don more, too. In the comics, I think Raph did seem to act like he liked Mike more than Mike liked Raph, although I don't see this in the new toon. Not saying that any of them dislike each other, just that the liking may be a bit uneven. What do you guys think?

Oooh now there's a topic! Interesting. I always get the impression (especially in 2k3) that Raph has a lot of respect for Don because he has capabilities that are so beyond his own that he is a bit in awe of him. But Don doesn't really pay that much attention to Raph. In fact, I think they all have a dislike for Raph because his temper annoys them.

As for Mike, I think they all simultaneously adore him and are annoyed by him (again, thinking more of 2k3).

Also, Leo is the source of some contention amongst this brothers when he is excelling in training (thinking of The Shredder Strikes story arc when they all giggle because leo is getting in trouble).

Actually I think Don is the only one who doesn't get everyone else's back up! Maybe because he is so good natured and they all know how much they need him.

[Rooish]

Yeah, I think all of them have a ton of respect for Don (except the few times that Raph has seemed to bully him). I wonder which of them Don likes best? Leo, maybe ...? I'd like to see more of Leo and Don pairing up.

[Warhorse]

Yeah, I think all of them have a ton of respect for Don (except the few times that Raph has seemed to bully him). I wonder which of them Don likes best? Leo, maybe ...? I'd like to see more of Leo and Don pairing up.

What medium are you talking about? Because I always thought Don liked Mikey best and vice versa in the movies.. But in the 2k3 toon, it's hard to tell who Donny likes best.

[MoreCowbell5263]

I think, without a second thought entering my mind, that in the movies, it's Don and Mike by a mile. They're always laughing and having fun and supporting each other in times of stress.

1st Movie: When Leo and Raph were arguing, they snuck into the kitchen and stayed out of it. When Splinter appears, you see tears in Mike's face and Don is right there for emotional support, whereas Raph seems pretty happy but not crying tears of joy like Mikey, but Leo takes a solitary leaning pose and doesn't even acknowledge Raph after that emotional peak moment in the movie (still brings a tear to my eye to this day). Don and Mike have a lot of inside jokes that you don't see Leo and Raph do. (e.g. the funeral-esque ceremony for the pizza with penicillin).

2nd Movie: Again, Don and Mikey always messing around and laughing. Whenever one of them is hurt or something, the other always came up to them to check if they were ok. (e.g. Mikey got kicked in the butt and slapped on the head by Leo and Raph for telling Keno about where they saw him on the street and Don is the only one to make sure he wasn't in too much pain) This movie focused on Raph and Leo butting heads as usual, [e.g. Leo: "Yes Master Splinter" Raph: (sarcasm, mocking Leo) "Yes Master Splinter" then they hit eachother a few times]

Plus, Leo always seemed kinda solitary in the movies to me, or he was butting heads with Raph. But there was definitely times where Leo and Raph were closer than Don and Mike usually are.

The old cartoon rarely had scenes where they paired up, they were always a team of 4 or only one of them was separated from the team. But it was either Raph and Mikey or Leo and Don, I'd say Raph and Mikey there.

Never read the comics, but from what I've heard, it does seem Raph and Mikey have a very strong bond.

[Rooish]

What medium are you talking about? Because I always thought Don liked Mikey best and vice versa in the movies.. But in the 2k3 toon, it's hard to tell who Donny likes best.

Yes, in the first and second movie Don seemed to like Mikey best. I suppose I don't consider those too canonical because Don acts nothing like himself in the first movie, and the second movie is ... kind of a joke? But a good, enjoyable joke. I don't know, in other mediums where Don and Mikey hang out together a lot (2k3 series and new movie), I get the impression that Don is sort of just tolerating Mikey.

[Warhorse]

Yes, in the first and second movie Don seemed to like Mikey best. I suppose I don't consider those too canonical because Don acts nothing like himself in the first movie, and the second movie is ... kind of a joke? But a good, enjoyable joke. I don't know, in other mediums where Don and Mikey hang out together a lot (2k3 series and new movie), I get the impression that Don is sort of just tolerating Mikey.

I didn't think Don liked Leo best in the new movie, not with those two spouts he had with Leo. He missed Leo, that's for darn sure, and he and Raph are hardly ever seen engaging in activities together besides training and battling the Foot!

I don't know. He and Mikey have definitely grown apart a bit in the new movie, but they still appear to have a strong rapport compared to the other Turtles.

Now Raph, while he seems to care most for Leo, I would say he has the best rapport with Casey! And then Leo seems to have the best rapport with Splinter.

But that's just my views. And these are all based on the movie.

As for the 2k3. I think someone said somewhere on here, that while Mikey and Raph seemed to have the best friendship, I think Raph feels a stronger bond to Leo. I just have this sinking feeling that between Raph and Leo, if one was to die, the other would dies shortly after, either by suicide or swallowed by one's grief.

[Cassidy]

I just have this sinking feeling that between Raph and Leo, if one was to die, the other would dies shortly after, either by suicide or swallowed by one's grief.
I've had a similar feeling about the two for a long time. Especially when something happens to Leo. I mean, Raph goes nuts when Leo is hurt.

[Magdolin]

I'm just going to be honest...all of them are very close, even with Splinter. I mean, you saw the way Raph reacted when he saw that Splinter was gone. And you saw the way Donnie was when they went to April's. And you saw Mikey cry tears of joy when he and the other's realized that Splinter was alive. And at the end they hugged him tightly cause they were so happy to see him. Now thats what i call famliy love.:twink: :tlove: :tlove:

[triplexxx]

I'm just going to be honest...all of them are very close, even with Splinter. I mean, you saw the way Raph reacted when he saw that Splinter was gone. And you saw the way Donnie was when they went to April's. And you saw Mikey cry tears of joy when he and the other's realized that Splinter was alive. And at the end they hugged him tightly cause they were so happy to see him. Now thats what i call famliy love.:twink: :tlove: :tlove:
I agree completely.

[Rooish]

I didn't think Don liked Leo best in the new movie, not with those two spouts he had with Leo. He missed Leo, that's for darn sure, and he and Raph are hardly ever seen engaging in activities together besides training and battling the Foot!

I don't know. He and Mikey have definitely grown apart a bit in the new movie, but they still appear to have a strong rapport compared to the other Turtles.

Now Raph, while he seems to care most for Leo, I would say he has the best rapport with Casey! And then Leo seems to have the best rapport with Splinter.

But that's just my views. And these are all based on the movie.

As for the 2k3. I think someone said somewhere on here, that while Mikey and Raph seemed to have the best friendship, I think Raph feels a stronger bond to Leo. I just have this sinking feeling that between Raph and Leo, if one was to die, the other would dies shortly after, either by suicide or swallowed by one's grief.

Eek. I agree with you, there. I really can't imagine Raph surviving long without Leo. Leo might not die from Raph's loss, but I think he would be badly badly shaken. I can't really imagine Raph sticking around without Mike, either.

And that's a good point about Don and Leo not being on too wonderful terms in the new movie. I didn't mean to imply that they were especially close, it's just ... haha, Don didn't really seem to adore any of his bros in that movie, but maybe that's just because his role was too small. I agree that he did still take care of Mike some. I do want to see more pair-ups with him and Leo, though! :)

[Magdolin]

Hai! I would say the thought that just crossed my mind, but i don't want get everybody in a tizzy.

[Cascadia]

hmmm....when Leo came home, Donnie tried to his big brother but he end up getting a head noggy from Leo. They were laughing over it. I cannot think of any other scene where Leo & Don are having fun with one another.

[Courk]

I've had a similar feeling about the two for a long time. Especially when something happens to Leo. I mean, Raph goes nuts when Leo is hurt.
Really? Can you provide examples? These are the kind of character development things that I love. I imagine one example will be when Leo gets thrown through a window, but are there others?

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

I think the infamous Same As It Never Was episode is another great example. They've been beefin' for years, but the moment Leo gets killed, Raph goes to him and then he gets himself killed, too.

[Rooish]

Hai! I would say the thought that just crossed my mind, but i don't want get everybody in a tizzy.

Temptation! Now I want to know.

[Warhorse]

Really? Can you provide examples? These are the kind of character development things that I love. I imagine one example will be when Leo gets thrown through a window, but are there others?

Check out Same as it Never Was and Exodus 2 episodes of the 2k3 series. Both show Leo going down and Raph going completely beserk!

As for the other way, honestly, in the 2k3 version, I have never seen Raph being immobolize or his life threatened before Leo's, to see what Leo will do. But I would just assume that Leo would do the same thing, since it's Raph's constant challenges that have made Leo the superior leader he is. But of course, this is only my interpretation of the dynamic between Leo and Raph, and not canon.

[Courk]

They can't show these episodes fast enough for me. :-)

I have never seen Raph being immobolize or his life threatened before Leo's, to see what Leo will do.
While I'm still a n00b at the 2003 series, could this indicate that Leo is willing to put himself in danger before he allows his family to face that same danger? I'm willing to bet that if any of them are in trouble, Leo would be running to help them, no matter what danger that would place him in.

[jenna]

I think someone said somewhere on here, that while Mikey and Raph seemed to have the best friendship, I think Raph feels a stronger bond to Leo. I just have this sinking feeling that between Raph and Leo, if one was to die, the other would dies shortly after, either by suicide or swallowed by one's grief.

What a heartbreaking concept :cry:

I think that you are right. I don't think Raph would survive without Leo. Although, as Rooish said, I think Leo would survive if Raphael died, but would never be the same again... like he was incomplete.

[Raphamel]

Oh boy, this is such a hard question for me...

In the first movie it was Mikey/Don and Leo/Raph, Mike and Don cracked me up and I adored all the Turtles.

I myself like the Raph/Mikey in the new toon a lot... they are probably the closest friends in my eyes, although Raph/Leo and Don/Leo had their moments.

And though it's not necessarily defined as closeness (as in friendship) between Raph/Leo, I prefer any interactions between the two in anything: movies, comics, shows. They have a multi-faceted and complex thing going on that I find really interesting. Raph might be friends with Mikey, but he has a bond with Leo that no one can touch!

I think someone said somewhere on here, that while Mikey and Raph seemed to have the best friendship, I think Raph feels a stronger bond to Leo. I just have this sinking feeling that between Raph and Leo, if one was to die, the other would dies shortly after, either by suicide or swallowed by one's grief.

What a heartbreaking concept :cry:

I think that you are right. I don't think Raph would survive without Leo. Although, as Rooish said, I think Leo would survive if Raphael died, but would never be the same again... like he was incomplete.

Yes! That explains it. I've always thought Raph was more dependent on Leo than vice-versa, but Leo would definitely feel a deep unhealing pain and guilt forever if Raph died, just as much as he would with Don or Mikey.

[Edit]: I am positive Leo and Raph have a unique bond... especially after having this graphic and disturbing Raph/Leo/Splinter dream that won't leave my brain... usually I forget dreams within 24 hours, but it's been almost two weeks! Go away already! :o

[Magdolin]

....I've already said who was closest. They all are. No matter what you say, it won't change my mind.:)

[Revan]

Does anyone else feel like Leo and Mike are the most distant?

[Rooish]

Maybe they are the most distant ... in the 2k3 series they seem to be, but not in the movies, and not in certain Mirage comics (like Volume 2, and Image--I know Image is not canonical, but Leo and Mikey almost seemed closest in that series).

[MoreCowbell5263]

This goes back to the turtles all being opposites and greatly contrasting one another.
Mike and Leo are opposites in their personalities, in that Leo takes ninjitsu more serious than anyone and enjoys learning about it as much as he can, which makes him a great leader, while Mike sees ninjitsu as a lot of teenagers see school, as just something you do for a good portion of the day until you can relax and enjoy yourself. This also is a good reason why no one thought Mike would make as good a leader in the case of Leo's demise.
Raph and Don are opposites in they're personalities, in that Raph is more emotional and doesn't hold much back, speaks his mind, regardless of whose feelings it hurts. Don on the other hand is more to himself, keeps things bottled up, and almost never reaches the extremes of mood, unlike Raphael who is either really excited or really angry or sad.
So, in case anyone was wondering why Leo/Mikey or Raph/Don has not been a popular vote for closest relationship, that is my theory. Opposites, despite what people say sometimes, rarely attract, and if they do, it's more of a physical relationship rather than love, but is offtopic, but kinda makes sense if you think of it on friendship lines than relationship lines. So this is why I think it narrows the best choice for closest relationship down to Leo/Don, Leo/Raph, Don/Mikey, or Raph/Mikey.

[Rooish]

Very good points. I'd have to agree with you about the opposites thing.

Also ... More Cowbell!!! Haha, that's a funny skit.

[MoreCowbell5263]

I still stand by my Don/Mike being the strongest, because they were always shown supporting each other in times and it really does seem like if anyone likes Mikey the most (in the movies at least), it's Donny. Like I said earlier, when Leo kicked Mike in the butt and Raph slapped Mike upside the head in Secret of the Ooze, Don was the only one to see if it didn't hurt too much. And when Mike was crying of joy to see Splinter appear in the first movie, Don was right there with a hand on his shoulder, while Raph seemed pretty enthusiastically happy and Leo just kinda leaning forward in deep thought, not worrying about Raph (or at least didn't look like it). From what I've heard other people say (because I never read the comics) it does seem like the closest bond was either Leo/Don or Raph/Mikey, mostly Raph/Mikey, but this still is a very good question.

[Rooish]

Didn't Raph and Leo grasp each other's hands in a very emotional manner? It looked like Leo was comforting Raph there.

[Courk]

Does anyone else feel like Leo and Mike are the most distant?
From my comparatively limited experience, I'd agree with the thought behind that, but I think "distant" might be too harsh of a word. They still care for each other, but I think they mutually would place each other at #3 if they were to rank how close they were to the others.

I also agree with Raph/Donnie and Mikey/Leo being opposites -- I never thought about it, but it's true!

How would each turtle rank in terms of closeness with the others?

I think Leo's would be:
1. Donnie
2. Raph
3. Mikey

Don:
1. Mikey
2. Leo
3. Raph

Raph:
1. Mikey
2. Leo
(This 1 and 2 was harder to come up with, despite the fact that I chose Raph/Mikey. I think that mutually Mikey and Raph are the closest, but you guys have made good points for Raph depending a lot on Leo.)
3. Donnie

Mikey:
1. Raph
2. Donnie
(This is the hardest 1 and 2 since I think it depends on the material)
3. Leo

Aww, based on that, everybody loves Mikey, but no one favors Leo.

[MoreCowbell5263]

Your results aren't too surprising, Raph and Mike do have a lot in common, which I can see them getting along, I haven't seen as many episodes of the 2k3 cartoon as a lot of you have, but I'm really only going on the movies. The original cartoon was hard to tell because they were rarely separated into pairs, but when they were, it was Leo/Don and Raph/Mike. But most episodes were like the other three had something to do while the remaining one played a bigger role (usually Don, he'd be messing with some contraption while the others fought).
Again, your results don't surprise me, I mean, yeah, Leo was gone for a long time, and they all missed him, but even if Raph left for a year (or however long Leo was gone), even Donny would've missed him a little. My opinion would be...

Leo: Don, then a tie between Mikey and Raph. Mikey doesn't disobey him, but his lack of seriousness has bothered him on a lot of occasions, but Raph is also a bothersome ordeal to Leo, too. So, I'm not sure who he prefers over those two, but they both bother him, which makes Don an easy choice for his #1. So...Don, then Raph and Mikey tied, but Mike is probably a little higher up than Raph.

Don: I gotta say Mike, Don acts as kinda a best friend and a big brother at the same time (although Raph has been known to be more protective of his baby brother). Don's very to-himself, knows how and when to take things seriously, but also has the good side of him that Mikey brings out. Don likes to have fun, the time he spends with his gadgets and gizmos is his way of having fun, so he does it. And obviously, Raph is his least favorite for being not only too serious and pessimistic (or realistic, as some Raph-fans have pointed out to me), but for being way to aggressive and hostile. So it goes, Mike, Leo, then Raph.

Raph: In the movies...don't know, he kinda gets a little aggressive with all of them at one point or another. This question to me isn't "who does Raph like the most?" but more "who bothers Raph the least?" So when I phrase it like that, I gotta say Mikey. Leo's always giving him orders and making him feel like he's useless to the team when he's angry (and although his anger can be a problem, it actually helps a lot, too), and Don's always making him feel stupid or contradicting everything he does. So, it's Mike, Leo, then Don.

Mikey: Hmmmm, tough one... In the movies....If I were him, I'd prefer Don, because it seems Don really cares about him and is always there for him in the times I've mentioned in other messages, but I'm not sure if that's how he feels. Him and Raph are very compatible: They don't think too much, they speak before thinking, and Mikey's upbeat, perky personality is complementary to Raph's negative one, and always seems to make Raph happy at times. I don't think he likes Leo the most, Leo's a little too serious, while the other two at least have a good sense of humor about everything. Tough one, but...I gotta go Don. But again, I'm going purely on the movies, and in the first, and a lot of the second one, it seemed like Mike and Don were always making jokes and trying to avoid the conflict between Raph and Leo. So...it goes Don, Raph, then Leo, but Don and Raph are close.

I think my results were pretty dang close to yours...

[MoreCowbell5263]

I love these questions about the Turtles, because it's so interesting to see how they all are similar and different to one another.

As I've said in other threads, Leo is a mixture of Don and Raph, and Mike is his complete opposite. Leo's happy and good side is Don, avoiding fights, finding a more logical solution, while his angry and bad side is Raph, wanting to fight, and avoiding thinking of better solutions, while Mikey represents everything Leo isn't.

Don is a mixture of Leo and Mikey, and Raph is his complete opposite. Don's lighter side when he's more carefree and not worrying about enemies is Mikey, while in the times where he needs to be more serious and worry about his enemies is Leo, while Raph represents Don's counterpart in the team.

Raph is a mixture of Leo and Mikey as well, while Don is his complete opposite. His Mikey side comes from when he does stuff without thinking about consequences and just knowing that his actions will result in his opponent getting beat, are part of his egotistical Mikey side, but when he thinks about what can happen if he makes a mistake or worries about his brothers more than his own safety is his heroic Leo side. And again, Don is the Jekyll to Raph's Hyde.

Mikey is a mix of Don and Raph, while Leo is his opposite. When Mikey wants to show off and fight and use his athletic abilities, that's Mikey's Raph side. Mike tends to brag and gloat about beating up bad guys, but then there are times where he just wants to relax and avoid fighting for a while. Like I said, his Raph side is when he's fighting and feels on top of the world thinking he can handle a million of them. But when he just wants to sit back and relax, and not get into a fight and find a better way, even though he may not be able to come up with one (but he did come up with the anti-mutagen ice cubes in Secret of the Ooze), that's his Don side. Mikey is often seen agreeing with either Don in a situation or Raph perhaps at a different time to a very similar situation, when again, leading his not his thing, he's happy just being a follower, which again, make Leo his opposite.

[Rooish]

Wow. Those were some really well thought-out points. I especially like your "X is a mix of Y and Z" points, MoreCowbell. Those were pretty bang-on, I'd say (although each Turtle has traits that none of the others have).

Courk, I like how you listed things out. You know, I'd have to say Mikey is equally obsessed with all his brothers, though. :)

[Magdolin]

I think we sholud talk about the TMNT more often...we're getting a lot of comments..:)

[MoreCowbell5263]

Well Rooish, to be honest, it did take me a while to come up with those examples. It was hard to come up with characteristics of one turtle that is exactly like one of the other turtles and exactly the opposite of the other. Like, there were times where I did think of things about Mikey that are also characterisitc of Leo and whatnot. But I do think most of the stuff I talked about in that message was pretty interesting and true, but there were a lot of things that even the "opposite" turtles had in common, but not many.

[jenna]

I like this whole opposite thing. But I think that Raphael is like a polar opposite to each of his brothers.

Leo is level headed and sensible: Raphael is quick tempered and rash
Donatello is quiet and gentle: Raphael is aggressive and violent
Michelangelo is fun-loving and innocent: Raphael is angst-ridden and old beyond his years.

I think this is what isolates Raphael from his brothers, making him something of a loner and perhaps making him the least favourite bro of any of the others. He is the only one that doesn't share something in common with any of the brothers.

[Cassidy]

Heheh... after reading MoreCowbell's opposites post, anybody else feel like they're in a Chinese restaurant reading the Zodiac? :D

[Warhorse]

From my comparatively limited experience, I'd agree with the thought behind that, but I think "distant" might be too harsh of a word. They still care for each other, but I think they mutually would place each other at #3 if they were to rank how close they were to the others.

I also agree with Raph/Donnie and Mikey/Leo being opposites -- I never thought about it, but it's true!

How would each turtle rank in terms of closeness with the others?

I think Leo's would be:
1. Donnie
2. Raph
3. Mikey

Don:
1. Mikey
2. Leo
3. Raph

Raph:
1. Mikey
2. Leo
(This 1 and 2 was harder to come up with, despite the fact that I chose Raph/Mikey. I think that mutually Mikey and Raph are the closest, but you guys have made good points for Raph depending a lot on Leo.)
3. Donnie

Mikey:
1. Raph
2. Donnie
(This is the hardest 1 and 2 since I think it depends on the material)
3. Leo

Aww, based on that, everybody loves Mikey, but no one favors Leo.

Areyou getting your ideas from the 2k3 toon? This list do make sense in that manner. I can see where Leo might be respected highly as a brother, but his discipline could make it hard just to sit down and have fun, though I have seen Raph being able to get the playfulness out of Leo. And then Mikey excells at getting Raph and Donny at ease.

Either way you look at it, it's a great and an ideal family dynamic. And throw April and Casey into the mix, this could be one fun group to hang out with.

[Rooish]

Well Rooish, to be honest, it did take me a while to come up with those examples. It was hard to come up with characteristics of one turtle that is exactly like one of the other turtles and exactly the opposite of the other. Like, there were times where I did think of things about Mikey that are also characterisitc of Leo and whatnot. But I do think most of the stuff I talked about in that message was pretty interesting and true, but there were a lot of things that even the "opposite" turtles had in common, but not many.

You could find things about the opposite brothers that were similar, too? Heh, ah well. You still had really good points.

[Seiza]

Leo is level headed and sensible: Raphael is quick tempered and rash
Donatello is quiet and gentle: Raphael is aggressive and violent
Michelangelo is fun-loving and innocent: Raphael is angst-ridden and old beyond his years.

I think this is what isolates Raphael from his brothers, making him something of a loner and perhaps making him the least favourite bro of any of the others. He is the only one that doesn't share something in common with any of the brothers.
Hmm, that is pretty interesting (this whole opposites and "X is made up of Y and Z" thing too), if a bit... depressing. Poor Raph. Isolated among the isolated. :dead:

But I didn't feel like he was so alienated from his brothers in the NT. Maybe the comics, perhaps... but not in the toon. I think the only difference that really separates him from his brothers is his reaction to how alone/different they are. But otherwise, it feels as if Raph is as different from Mike as Leo is from Don-- it exists, but not enough to alienate him from them.

And to use the "loner" label on Raph... that's always intrigued me. He's angry, but why? Because they're so different from humanity. Why would that matter if he likes being alone? Why would he care about humans and their criminals if he was a loner? (He's always painted with this "anti-hero" brush, but his Nightwatcher gig shows he's very much a hero.) I felt he was angry because humans wouldn't accept them, because he could never walk out in the open and catch a movie without bundling himself in trenchcoats. It feels like Raph wants company, not avoids it.

[Raphamel]

Hmm, that is pretty interesting (this whole opposites and "X is made up of Y and Z" thing too), if a bit... depressing. Poor Raph. Isolated among the isolated. :dead:

I know it... it seems to me like Raph is the odd one out in every incarnation out there, even the old toon. Sure, in each medium they are treated a little differently but I think the new toon and TMNT have done a really good job getting more of the canon (a.k.a. more realistic) personalities out there. The old toon has its moments, but I don't seriously "like" it, I think it's just good for laughs. And Don annoys the CRAP out of me in it.

Courk, I love your lists and agree with them. As much as I think Raph and Don are opposites, they tend to leave each other alone much more than Mikey or Leo and Don seems fine with letting Raph alone as well... I don't know if you'd call that "respect" or not, but Raph seems to appreciate it nonetheless. I don't think any of them dwell on who is their favorite brother as much as we do it for them. ;) Don seemed just as concerned for Raph's well-being as Leo did when April called them in a panic and Mikey was the one who seemed more "Raph? In trouble? What else is new? Let's eat!"

But I didn't feel like he was so alienated from his brothers in the NT. Maybe the comics, perhaps... but not in the toon. I think the only difference that really separates him from his brothers is his reaction to how alone/different they are. But otherwise, it feels as if Raph is as different from Mike as Leo is from Don-- it exists, but not enough to alienate him from them.

Well, alienated is a strong word... I've always considered him the most different among them because he's the stubborn strong-willed catalyst, every group needs one. And in the end someone like Raph is usually a reason a group can become stronger when they learn how to work together effectively as a team. Who cares if a little (A LOT) attitude is involved, right? ;) I will say I noticed something a few months before the movie even began and in the back of my mind thought "togetherness" (i.e. probably something having to do with Raph and his naughty ways) was going to be a focus. Now that I've seen the film it makes even more sense.

Look at their individual movie posters: Leo, Don, and Mikey are all looking at us, the audience. In a broader sense you can look at it as the three Turtles having the same intentions and common goals. You could say they are still a team together because they are all in the sewer, their home, each one doing something that focuses on a "good" part of their personalities, something they like doing, something that's easy for them, something that adds to the group's strengths, not something destructive. Raph, however, is not in determined attack mode like Leo, not in play mode like Mikey, not in serious work 'n think mode like Don... Raph is standing on a rooftop and avoiding our gaze--his attentions lie upon an entire city he feels alone in yet wants to protect. Though dutiful, this is destructive in the same sense Splinter talked to him about: Raph carries the weight of the burdens of others when he already has a commitment to his family's safety. He's the only brother that continuously strays from Leo & Splinter's "protection", he's cast in deep shadow (ironic because he *isn't* in the dark sewer like the others), he is the only one out in the open world who is looking away from the common goals of his brothers--rather he's looking at the "grander scope" of things because he can feel a darkness and loneliness in reality that his brothers are blessed to be without. Although Leo may have experienced it for a time living in the jungle, he did not used to/does not generally share Raph's point of view that the human world needs their protection (i.e. Leo doesn't truly need any acceptance or recognition other than that of his family's). Raph's inclination to want to always follow his heart suits him as the rebel (having somewhat different motives for action) but, incidentally, not as a leader.

And to use the "loner" label on Raph... that's always intrigued me. He's angry, but why? Because they're so different from humanity. Why would that matter if he likes being alone? Why would he care about humans and their criminals if he was a loner? (He's always painted with this "anti-hero" brush, but his Nightwatcher gig shows he's very much a hero.) I felt he was angry because humans wouldn't accept them, because he could never walk out in the open and catch a movie without bundling himself in trenchcoats. It feels like Raph wants company, not avoids it.

Loners are, of course, individuals who anti-social by nature, but ALL humans as a species (like dogs) are instinctively social creatures who have always gravitated towards a group setting--whether it be hunting and gathering in nomadic groups or forming civilizations and colonies... humans depend on other human contact and the desire to "need" a certain type of companionship whether it be familial, friend, lover, comrade, community--it will always be there, developed for almost everyone when we are infants. Loneliness is a universal "bad" feeling. I'm assuming Mutant Turtles who "act" human would work the same way, lol.

I like this whole opposite thing. But I think that Raphael is like a polar opposite to each of his brothers.

Leo is level headed and sensible: Raphael is quick tempered and rash
Donatello is quiet and gentle: Raphael is aggressive and violent
Michelangelo is fun-loving and innocent: Raphael is angst-ridden and old beyond his years.

I think this is what isolates Raphael from his brothers, making him something of a loner and perhaps making him the least favourite bro of any of the others. He is the only one that doesn't share something in common with any of the brothers.

Yes! Raph is sort of like the epitome of isolation because he is the most different from them all. Even when he's not physically alone he'll always be somewhat emotionally alone. Which is hard enough for anyone to bear, isn't it? :-? And I think this can lead to his habit of thinking one thing and doing another or saying one thing and thinking another. He's young and confused but essentially angry that the good he wants done can't truly be done when he has a lack of control in just about everything around him, including his own feelings. It seems to me when his intentions are ignored or misunderstood is when his anger gets the better of him, stemming from a want to do the right thing and a need to be needed and wanted (which he felt neither needed or wanted when Leo decided not to come back to them. So, out of hurt, Raph flipped it and told Leo that he was the one who wasn't needed or wanted "We got along just fine without you!")

And being part of the Turtles means he does depend on them--he may do what he did in TMNT and temporarily leave the group in anger, but he will always come back because I doubt Raph would ever want to be truly all alone... he'd go crazy.

[Magdolin]

Temptation! Now I want to know.
Well, I just thought it would be bad if like, Raph....was out for awhlie, and he herd Leo fight somebody.....And he went to go help him, and Leo was about to be killed! And Raph ran to his brother. And.....He got killed instead...



Would make a good fanfic huh?

[Rooish]

Definitely a good fanfic. Angsty, but good. Man, you had better believe I have an angsty fanfic idea myself. ;)

Raphamel, I really liked your analysis there. Especially about their posters. I always thought Raph wanted to get the hell out of NYC, while Leo would stay and protect it. The new movie proved me wrong.

[jenna]

And to use the "loner" label on Raph... that's always intrigued me. He's angry, but why? Because they're so different from humanity. Why would that matter if he likes being alone? Why would he care about humans and their criminals if he was a loner? (He's always painted with this "anti-hero" brush, but his Nightwatcher gig shows he's very much a hero.) I felt he was angry because humans wouldn't accept them, because he could never walk out in the open and catch a movie without bundling himself in trenchcoats. It feels like Raph wants company, not avoids it.

It's the ultimate self-fulfilling prophesy. You don't want to be alone, you fear being alone, you feel alone, you become alone.... Raph reinforces his own behaviour. Raphael's isolation from his brothers (and that none of them really are able to relate to him or understand him) is one of his key character traits, but that doesn't mean that he wants to be that way. He probably thrives off his own anger too in a perverse way - there is certain buzz to the kind of nervous energy that Raph has, but that doesn't mean he likes being angry.

Raphamel, once again you astound me!! I love your observation about the character posters. You are absolutely right. I hadn't noticed, but now I see exactly what you're talking about. :D

[The Shelf]

It's the ultimate self-fulfilling prophesy. You don't want to be alone, you fear being alone, you feel alone, you become alone....

Steps 3 and 4 above are what sets Raph apart from the others. The others do the same thing up to that point.

i.e. You don't want to be alone, you fear being alone, you distract yourself from those feelings, you never feel alone.

The difference between the remaining three turtles is in how they distract themselves. Don does it with science, math, and literature. Leo does it with martial arts. Mike does it with his writing and jokes. Raph can't distract himself from his lonely feelings very well, so he's stuck thinking about it all the time. When you think about something a long time, it starts to consume you.

[jenna]

Steps 3 and 4 above are what sets Raph apart from the others. The others do the same thing up to that point.

i.e. You don't want to be alone, you fear being alone, you distract yourself from those feelings, you never feel alone.

The difference between the remaining three turtles is in how they distract themselves. Don does it with science, math, and literature. Leo does it with martial arts. Mike does it with his writing and jokes. Raph can't distract himself from his lonely feelings very well, so he's stuck thinking about it all the time. When you think about something a long time, it starts to consume you.

Yeah, that's absolutely true - because Raph's reaction is to go into brooding mode, he just allows himself to stew in his reveries, and ends up repeating the cycle.

Also, he is made a loner by his own behaviour pushing his brothers away. The others simply do not want to be around him a lot of the time because he can be such a depressive that he could easily bring them down with him. So they stay clear of him when he is feeling bad, thus making him feel alone and even worse... it just goes around in circles.

[Warhorse]

And where are you people getting your analysis of Raph from. The new movie? The old movie. If any of them, Raph is the one Turtle that is not alone. Leo, Don and Mikey can only seem to strike up chords with eachother or with Splinter. It's Raph that went out of the circle and made friends with Casey Jones.

His personality has him at odds with his brothers, but I don't think he goes into this brooding stage. He goes and hangs out with Casey. Or does something that he feels is constructive in his own terms, and that is fighting crime. Fighting is his hobby, just as Don has his inventions, Mikey his jokes and so forth.

But out of all the brothers, the one I think is truly at odds is Leo. He seems to be the only one that has a hard time just sitting down and relaxing with his bros. I have seen Raph in the 2k3 toon get Leo to play games once in a while. But that is about as close as I have seen Leo, what's the right word, be human?

[triplexxx]

But out of all the brothers, the one I think is truly at odds is Leo. He seems to be the only one that has a hard time just sitting down and relaxing with his bros. I have seen Raph in the 2k3 toon get Leo to play games once in a while. But that is about as close as I have seen Leo, what's the right word, be human?
I don't think Leonardo has a really hard time relaxing or playing with his brothers. He seems to enjoy family time as much as they do. It's only when he takes something too personally that he can't relax and this doesn't happen too often, like in the first half of Season 4, but once the sense was put back in him, that was over and done with. Leonardo's no more an alien to his brothers to his brothers than any of them are. Sometimes Raphael's temper does alienate him. Donatello and Michaelanglelo can also alienate themselves. But they all act pretty, how you say, human.

[Risawn]

I say Don and Mike, mostly because there's Raph, whos somewhat of a lone shark and although very protective of his brothers, often times he seems to build up rifts between him and them. Leo is often playing teacher's pet and is really busy meditating most of the time, and sometimes he can be found sulking by himself as he strives to be a better leader, and being in the leadership position also puts a strain on his relationship with his brothers.

I guess I chose Don and Mike on the basis of the first movie. THey have their spats, true, but throughout the whole plotline, where you had Raph brooding and Leo meditating, you also had Don and Mike hanging out and cracking jokes together.

However, I do see a relationship between Mike and Raph as well, especially in the 2k3 cartoon (and the original cartoon for that matter) as they seemed to grind each others nerves in a brotherly sort of way. Mike would agitate Raph and Raph would turn around and smack Mike.

Leo and Don seem to have a relationship of mutual respect, Leo relies on Don to give him the technical expertise he needs when making decisions, and Don respects his leadership.

And of course, there is the Leo Raph dynamic, probably the most interesting pairing in the series of Leo and his desire to lead the others and Raph with his desire to be left alone and make his own choices. Their frequent spats seem to be a continual focus for various episodes of the new cartoons (and of course the new movie).

The least close relationships are obviously the ones focused on the opposite Turtles, the Leo (the serious one)-Mike(the goofy one) pairing and the Don(peacemaker)-Raph(aggressive) pairing. Though these are potential sources for interesting storylines.

Maybe the question is which two brothers is the closest, but heres another question (and kick me if its been discussed already and I was just to lazy to read the thread to see it) which paring of brothers is your favorite dynamic to see in action?

Something tells me Leo-Raph is a favorite, as its a constant source of drama and makes good story telling. I'm partial to the Mikey Raph pairing myself. It always adds elements of humor.

[Rooish]

Well my favourite by far is Mikey and Raph. I seem to be somewhat obsessed with it. I was so let down by the new movie. I shall go ponder my lameness now.

[Seiza]

And where are you people getting your analysis of Raph from. The new movie? The old movie. If any of them, Raph is the one Turtle that is not alone. Leo, Don and Mikey can only seem to strike up chords with eachother or with Splinter. It's Raph that went out of the circle and made friends with Casey Jones.

His personality has him at odds with his brothers, but I don't think he goes into this brooding stage. He goes and hangs out with Casey. Or does something that he feels is constructive in his own terms, and that is fighting crime. Fighting is his hobby, just as Don has his inventions, Mikey his jokes and so forth.
Yeah, this is what I meant by the "loner" label not being too accurate for Raph. I'm sure he goes and broods, but to take it to the extreme would be the same as saying Don secludes himself working on his inventions all day, or Leo only meditates and trains all day, or Mikey watches TV all day.

If every turtle has a way of distracting themselves (which I agree with, though I think Raph is the least able to 'accept' their difference), then fighting feels like Raph's. But even then, he still seems to reach out to society more than any of his brothers, by going top-side and kicking butt and whatnot.

I guess it might depend on what you think a "loner" is. For me, it's someone who actively tries to remove himself from society. Squall (from Final Fantasy VIII) strikes me as a textbook loner. Raph doesn't quite.

But out of all the brothers, the one I think is truly at odds is Leo. He seems to be the only one that has a hard time just sitting down and relaxing with his bros.
For Leo, I see him always trying to balance being a brother and a leader--and when you're trying to lead family members, it becomes a lot harder. If you're too firm, they'll resent you. If you're too soft, they'll take advantage of you in typical sibling opportunism. In the end, because unlike normal working people Leo cannot leave his office and return home, he'll always remain restrained in carrying himself.

Maybe the question is which two brothers is the closest, but heres another question (and kick me if its been discussed already and I was just to lazy to read the thread to see it) which paring of brothers is your favorite dynamic to see in action?
Hmm. Of course, I'm partial to Leo-Raph, but it can get extremely "heavy" (or melodramatic :P ). Raph/Mike is just good ol' fun, and I've pretty much loved all their interactions that I've seen. The humour is great, and if I have to pick which pair is the most "normal" brother/sibling relationship among the turtles, Raph/Mike it is.

[Raphamel]

I guess it might depend on what you think a "loner" is. For me, it's someone who actively tries to remove himself from society. Squall (from Final Fantasy VIII) strikes me as a textbook loner. Raph doesn't quite.

My yes, you are right... by that definition he's not really a loner at all. But being a loner has several aspects to it... forgive me for using a Wiki reference, but it explains some reasons why Raph might be thought of as a loner:

1) A person seeks solitude for a variety of reasons ranging from excessive rejection from others, to a simple desire to be with oneself.

2) Focusing on certain traits, some loners socialize greater with people in whom they can confide (like Raph does with Casey), though most loners can only socialize with people they see constantly (and does Raph really ever "socialize" with anyone but Casey? He doesn't really talk to his brothers the same way the other Turtles can talk to each other). This is in part due to the fact that many loners are overly self-conscious and believe people are constantly sizing up their attributes (maybe with Raph it's more of a "his flaws are often in the spotlight" type thing, sometimes he just wants to separate himself from the group's shadow).

I guess I think of a loner as someone who is usually the odd one out, strong-willed either for good or ill and apt to follow his own instincts rather than a leader's orders. A loner, even when part of a team, doesn't truly oblige the idea of team. To me all that screams Raph. I'll bring up the movie posters again: Raph is the only one not looking at the audience and he's the only one not in the sewers--he's in the human world. He is emotionally alone because he is the most anti-hero/different of the group--constantly misunderstanding and being misunderstood and is the brother who is most often out of sorts with his role in the Turtle family, unlike Don who seems content with himself and doesn't ever "leave" the family (especially not in anger). Raph is the most likely to fight by himself and not want help in facing his problems. Leave-alone-and-be-left-alone. Yes, the Turtles all have "doing own thing" qualities, but not quite to Raph's extreme. So... I agree with you that Raph isn't the traditional hard-core loner, but I think he has enough natural loner tendencies to make him fit the bill... I don't know, it's probably a split topic ;)

For Leo, I see him always trying to balance being a brother and a leader--and when you're trying to lead family members, it becomes a lot harder. If you're too firm, they'll resent you. If you're too soft, they'll take advantage of you in typical sibling opportunism. In the end, because unlike normal working people Leo cannot leave his office and return home, he'll always remain restrained in carrying himself.

Leo has such a hard road... it's hard enough to live up to your dad's (and your own) expectations without your brother(s) questioning your every move. I admire the crap outta him.

Hmm. Of course, I'm partial to Leo-Raph, but it can get extremely "heavy" (or melodramatic :P ). Raph/Mike is just good ol' fun, and I've pretty much loved all their interactions that I've seen. The humour is great, and if I have to pick which pair is the most "normal" brother/sibling relationship among the turtles, Raph/Mike it is.

Same here... voted for Raph/Mikey, but really get into the dynamics of Leo/Raph as a "deeper" duo. ;)

[Sage Ninja]

I don't think the turtles are so much of oposites as some people make them out to be. Like I would disagree that Leonardo and Michelangelo are the complete opposites of each other personalites that some of you have said they are. I think their diffrences are only surface deep. In the 2k3 series at least I find that seem to have spiecial respect for each other and even get along rather well. I just adore Leonardo+Michelangelo pair-ups in the 2k3 series, same with Donatello and Raphael in the 2k3 series I think they play off each other very well and I love when they team up.

but as to who thinks more highly than the other in the relationships goes I think it goes like this:

Classic 1987 show :

Leonardo and Dontello: I feel that their relationship with each other is pretty equal as far as how they both feel toward each other. Although I think some times Leonardo feels more appriciative of Dontello's smarts and seeks out his advice in certain matters than Donatello does with Leonardo

Raphael and Michaelangelo: I actully feel that Raphael cares a little more for Michelangelo than Michelangelo does for him. I mean I think they both like each other and seek each others company (since they are both the more laid back turtles in the group), but I get a sence that Michaelangelo is often annoyed or unimpressed with Raphael's constant jabs at his intelligence or when occasinally screws-up. So over-all I think Raphael likes Michelangelo's company a bit more than Michaelangelo like Raphael's company.

Dontello and Raphael: I think they like each other alright but I think they both like hanging out with eighther Michaelangelo or Leonardo than each other if they could. In this case I think Donatello is mildly unimpressed with Raphael's sarcastic nature and Raphael is mildly excasperated with Donatello's over the top inventions and occasinal flackiness. So I think that their relationship is on equal terms that they both like each other but both are not their number one person they would like to hang out with. I think they both connect in the sence they are3 both realists and pessimistic.

Leonardo and Michaelangelo: I think that Michaelangelo thinks more for Leonardo than Leonardo does of him. I feel that Michaelangelo even though he might be a bit put off by Leonardo's bossiness, looks up to Leonardo and respects him, by contrast I think even though Leonardo like Michaelangelo I think would prefere Donatello's company to Michaelangelo because Michaelangelo is to loud and flamboyant and thus can't respect him as much as Michaelangelo might respect him. I think they both might connect in the fact that they are both optimistic and idealistic.

Raphael and Leoanrdo: I think that that their realtionship is about equal for the most part. Although I think maybe Leonardo thinks more for Raphael than he thinks of him. I get the sence that Raphael takes Leonardo for granted more so than any of the other turtles and always has sarcastic critisism for Leonardo's passinate zeal for leading and good-doing.

Donatello and Michelangelo: Pretty hard to tell. I think they both feel equally the same about each other, even though they don't gravitate into each others spheres all to often.

2k3 series

Leo and Don: I think these two think very highly of each other and respect each others strengths and thoughts. Even though they don't interact to much I think their relationship is equal to each other. I think one thinks as highly as the other.

Raph and Mikey: This one is tough to narrow done and dissect because I feel their relationship has sublely changed over the course of the series. At first glance I think it might appear that Mikey cares more for Raphael than Raphael cares for him. Since Mikey interacts with Raph with a lot of enthusiasm and gusto while Raph generally has a big scowl on his face when ever Mikey so much as looks in his direction. But I notice that more often than not, it is Raphael than seeks out Mikey's company than the other way around, when Michaelangelo isn't immediately standing right next to him. On the other hand if Mikey seems to be rather content to not to be in Raphael's comapany if there is an instance where Raphael isn't immediataly next to him.

Don and Raph I think they both like each other but are both not each others favorite peope to hang around with. I think Don and his techno geekiness just doesn't click with Raph and Raph's agressivness just doesn't click with Donatello and his amiable and quite disposition.

I'll be back later with the rest. Gotta go to work now ;)

[Warhorse]

Wow Sage Ninja. You got to go to work now? Sheesh. I feel for you. I just got home from my job.

Hey. Here's another question. In 2k3, when Donny was showing off the Battle Shell for the first time, and he tells Raph to look in the back, and sitting there is a shiny motorcycle Don seemed to have made just for Raph. Don went through alot of trouble for that bike for Raph. But the other two have to ride shot gun:D

So, why do you think Don would make a bike for Raph? Is it maybe because he knows Raph likes to go out the most of all the brothers, and he has a more swifter way to get away from trouble on the bike or something? Or was Donny just being really nice, kind of letting Raph know he loves him?

[ninjitsu_magic_47]

That is a really good question, when I saw that, I thought it was sweet. If only my brother made a motor bike for me

[Raphamel]

So, why do you think Don would make a bike for Raph? Is it maybe because he knows Raph likes to go out the most of all the brothers, and he has a more swifter way to get away from trouble on the bike or something? Or was Donny just being really nice, kind of letting Raph know he loves him?

The question's not directed at me but... maybe Don just wants Raph to go out more, lol. "Here bro, made you something, get on it and ride all you want, leave us alone when you're moody and we'll call it even." :lol:

[ninjitsu_magic_47]

Thats one way of looking at it

[Seiza]

The question's not directed at me but... maybe Don just wants Raph to go out more, lol. "Here bro, made you something, get on it and ride all you want, leave us alone when you're moody and we'll call it even."
Hah! I like that! I wonder if Don recorded a distinct drop in broken appliances (and saved on bandages) after Raph got his own set of wheels. :lol:

Though don't all four of them have their own bikes eventually? I think it's in a Justice Force ep... But I think it's still something that Don unveils a bike for the brother he least hangs out with on-screen. ^^

My yes, you are right... by that definition he's not really a loner at all. But being a loner has several aspects to it... forgive me for using a Wiki reference, but it explains some reasons why Raph might be thought of as a loner:
Ah, Wiki's definitely a more... how do you say... well-rounded approach to the "loner" label. *bows to the Wiki definition* Though I'm keeping to mine for now. I suspect we're on the same page anyway. Just to different degrees. :)

Oh, and I forgot to add before: your insight on the posters is FANTASTIC. I think my Literature prof. would love you. I only noticed that each turtle was in his "element", and Raph always struck me as belonging above-street than below. So I never looked further into it. The strange way the pics in the sewer are more well-lit than Raph's above the city is a very good point (the animators did a great job making the lair look more safe and homely than the alien, harsh, luminous city).

[CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy]

If your talking original cartoon, i always think either Raph-Mike, the 2 jokers, or Leo-Don, but overall i voted leo-don in terms of original cartoon

[MoreCowbell5263]

What's the title of the episode that Don gives Raph the bike?

[Warhorse]

What's the title of the episode that Don gives Raph the bike?

I believe Meet Casey Jones.

[MoreCowbell5263]

Thanks dude

[jenna]

And where are you people getting your analysis of Raph from. The new movie? The old movie. If any of them, Raph is the one Turtle that is not alone. Leo, Don and Mikey can only seem to strike up chords with eachother or with Splinter. It's Raph that went out of the circle and made friends with Casey Jones.



When I refer to Raph as a 'loner' I mean that he spends a great deal of time on his own and most crucially away from his brothers.

1987 toon - Raphael Drives 'em wild - he is on his own at the cinema. Raphael knocks 'em dead - his brothers leave him on his own to get pizza while he watches TV. etc

2k3 toon - Meet Casey Jones, Lone Raph & Cub etc - he often goes up above ground to cool his temper.

Film1 - One word: rooftop.

Film 2 - gets frustrated at Leo's inactive approach and storms off on his own to find the Foot.

Film 3 - sits on his own appreciating nature etc. (good God - this film is rubbish!)

Film 4 - storms out of multiple rooms and is spending practically all his time alone fighting crime.

Can't comment on the comics as my knowledge of them is limited.

Also, Raphael is (as you say) consistently the one who is the first to meet the most humans. This is a reflection of the fact that he spends a large amount of time isolated from his family and on his own, in a position to meet them. The others don't because they are having nice cosy family time down in the sewers. Raphael's attraction to humans is to do with the fact that he feels (like Raphamel and Seiza said) that he belongs more in their world than in the world of his own family. Even the first issue of the comics (which I have read) has Raphael saying that he does not feel at home in the sewers, that he is happier above ground.

[Warhorse]

When I refer to Raph as a 'loner' I mean that he spends a great deal of time on his own and most crucially away from his brothers.

1987 toon - Raphael Drives 'em wild - he is on his own at the cinema. Raphael knocks 'em dead - his brothers leave him on his own to get pizza while he watches TV. etc

2k3 toon - Meet Casey Jones, Lone Raph & Cub etc - he often goes up above ground to cool his temper.

Film1 - One word: rooftop.

Film 2 - gets frustrated at Leo's inactive approach and storms off on his own to find the Foot.

Film 3 - sits on his own appreciating nature etc. (good God - this film is rubbish!)

Film 4 - storms out of multiple rooms and is spending practically all his time alone fighting crime.

Can't comment on the comics as my knowledge of them is limited.

Also, Raphael is (as you say) consistently the one who is the first to meet the most humans. This is a reflection of the fact that he spends a large amount of time isolated from his family and on his own, in a position to meet them. The others don't because they are having nice cosy family time down in the sewers. Raphael's attraction to humans is to do with the fact that he feels (like Raphamel and Seiza said) that he belongs more in their world than in the world of his own family. Even the first issue of the comics (which I have read) has Raphael saying that he does not feel at home in the sewers, that he is happier above ground.

Hmmm. Well, if you look at that way from the comics. Raph feels he was meant for something far more bigger than what his brothers and sensei want out of life. I dont find it a fault to want to spread your wings and fly. Almost all families have one individual that has gone out of the family business, or the one horse town, to find a life for himself. I don't neccessary view that as a loner. He just doesn't want the life that his sensei wants for him. Many kids dont want to do what their parents would like.

Also. In the first movie. Yes, Raph did go out on the roof to cool down, but what did you expect him to do. In the 2k3 toon, on the same kind of page, it was Leo that went out by himself to train.

In the second movie, Raph wasn't alone. He teamed up with Keno to find out where the foot headquarters were. So he wasn't byhimself in this situation.

In the forth, he spent the beginning of the movie by himself, but very quickly, Casey was helping him out. And when Raph stormed out from frustration, he went to talk things over with Casey, so he wasn't alone here either.

TMNT three, Leo, Raph and Mikey all wanted to stay in ancient Japan. It was Donny that wasn't too thrilled with the idea.

I guess I am saying that Raph isn't as big of a loner as we all think. Leo, Don, Mikey and Splinter just dont have what it takes to get through to him. Splinter aknoweldges this in the first TMNT movie, when he addresses Raphael's anger, and that Splinter can do little to channel it.

But of course, no one could foresee the friendship Raph and Casey would form. SO it works out fine in the end.

[Raphamel]

Film 3 - sits on his own appreciating nature etc. (good God - this film is rubbish!)

I watched it once...and never again ;) (P.S. Good to see you! Yay internet! <3)

Raphael's attraction to humans is to do with the fact that he feels (like Raphamel and Seiza said) that he belongs more in their world than in the world of his own family. Even the first issue of the comics (which I have read) has Raphael saying that he does not feel at home in the sewers, that he is happier above ground.

Yeah... maybe one of the big reasons he's not at peace with his role in the Turtles is because he kind of resents being a Turtle--a mutant "freak" that would never be accepted in the world he likes to escape to.

[jenna]

Hmmm. Well, if you look at that way from the comics. Raph feels he was meant for something far more bigger than what his brothers and sensei want out of life. I dont find it a fault to want to spread your wings and fly. Almost all families have one individual that has gone out of the family business, or the one horse town, to find a life for himself. I don't neccessary view that as a loner. He just doesn't want the life that his sensei wants for him. Many kids dont want to do what their parents would like.

Also. In the first movie. Yes, Raph did go out on the roof to cool down, but what did you expect him to do. In the 2k3 toon, on the same kind of page, it was Leo that went out by himself to train.

In the second movie, Raph wasn't alone. He teamed up with Keno to find out where the foot headquarters were. So he wasn't byhimself in this situation.

In the forth, he spent the beginning of the movie by himself, but very quickly, Casey was helping him out. And when Raph stormed out from frustration, he went to talk things over with Casey, so he wasn't alone here either.

TMNT three, Leo, Raph and Mikey all wanted to stay in ancient Japan. It was Donny that wasn't too thrilled with the idea.

I guess I am saying that Raph isn't as big of a loner as we all think. Leo, Don, Mikey and Splinter just dont have what it takes to get through to him. Splinter aknoweldges this in the first TMNT movie, when he addresses Raphael's anger, and that Splinter can do little to channel it.

But of course, no one could foresee the friendship Raph and Casey would form. SO it works out fine in the end.

All this is true but I want to be clear, I am not saying that Raphael has no friends or has done anything wrong by not staying within the confines of his family - believe me I'm all for going your own way and finding your own path in life which often means separating yourself from your family.

What I am saying is that he is more likely to take off on his own than the others. He often does this as a reaction to being angry. He is rarely able to find comfort in his family when times are hard as the others do. In the first film Splinter says "You are unique amongst your brothers for you choose to face this enemy [anger] alone". This is because Raphael faces his issues on his own rather than seek help. This film makes such a point of this aspect of raph - that he is somewhat isolated from his brothers.

When I use the word 'loner' it is not a derrogatory term. I simply mean that he often is his own company. This does not mean that he is completely unable to relate to other characters. I stand by my belief that he is isolated from his family because he doesn't fit in as much as the other three. Like you say, he feels there is much more out there than his menial life under ground.

[Rooish]

Just thought I'd bump this because people seemed interested at the time. :p

[jenna]

Yay! One of my favourite threads - The Return Of!

:D

[Scandia]

Overall, Mikey and Raph. However, in the movies, it would be Mikey and Donnie.

[MoreCowbell5263]

Agree with Scandia

[Revan]

^I wonder why they did that for the movie. I think it's because they really wanted to emphasize Raph's loner independence... and it worked, I think.

[jenna]

^I wonder why they did that for the movie. I think it's because they really wanted to emphasize Raph's loner independence... and it worked, I think.

And Leonardo's too in a way. He is very much part of the gang with Don and Mike while he's happy-go-lucky Leo, but then Splinter gets abducted and the onus is on him to be the leader. Suddenly he is separate from them. They take themselves off when Raphael picks a fight with Leo, and Leo has to deal with it afterwards... alone.

[MoreCowbell5263]

I think Mike is the only one of the Turtles who really isn't a loner. Don has been shown as off on his own when he's working with his technology and stuff, Leo trains a lot with Splinter, so I guess he's not really a loner in that case, but he has been shown training solo at many times, and Raph is almost always alone when he's walking the streets of New York, except in the OT of course.

[Revan]

I think Mike is the only one of the Turtles who really isn't a loner. Don has been shown as off on his own when he's working with his technology and stuff, Leo trains a lot with Splinter, so I guess he's not really a loner in that case, but he has been shown training solo at many times, and Raph is almost always alone when he's walking the streets of New York, except in the OT of course.

Sure Don is sometimes depicted as a loner but not in the movies. In the movies, he jokes with Mike alot more than in other mediums. But yeah, in other mediums Mike seems to be the one who needs his brothers the most.