The TMNT Mirage Continuity Timeline (complete?)

[DrSpengler]

The Mirage Comics continuity timeline has MOVED! (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/01/mirage-comics-continuity-timeline.html)


As mentioned a bit back, the timeline became so massive that it actually exceeded the character limit for this post. As such, I moved it to my site, TMNT Entity, and gave it a facelift. It is now purdier than ever!

So far as discussion goes, I'd prefer it if we kept it to this thread and not the comments section of my site. I say this not because I don't want your feedback there, but because discussion of this sort of thing is a LOT easier via a forum than via blog comments. It would just be easier for everyone, this way.


And last but not least, a BIG THANKS to EVERYONE in this thread who has helped with this project. Three years and counting and it just gets bigger and better. I appreciate all the help and feedback you guys have been giving me and look forward to more in the future. Fresh observations regarding placement seem to be made all the time, so who knows how long it will be before this timeline is "perfect".

But rest assured, it get a little closer every day.

[DrSpengler]

*scrubbed by user for notes being out of date*

[Ratchet]

Good job Doc! I'm going to have to see how I've got mine ordered in comparison now!

[OA]

Goodness gracious man...I am very impressed...your logic in placement seems very nice to me...theres a few things Id like to check on but overall great job...

[DrSpengler]

Please, double check. There's so much material that I'm bound to have mixed up somewhere along the line.

Also, I don't own the second printing of the Michealangelo (microseries) #1 which contained a short Christmas story or the Tales Vol. 1 TPB which contained an additional Nobody short story, so I wasn't able to place those in the continuity.

If anybody DOES own them, please, help me figure out where they belong.

[Aztec General]

That's pretty damn good. I'll re-read it just to make sure you didnt miss anything but, pretty damn good none the less.

*Edit*: Found one: What about the two part Casey Jones solo arc?

[The Shelf]

Great job, dude. Didn't someone post an age time line for the turtles as well somewhere on these boards? It would be really cool if the two of you could combine these to give us the ultimate all-encompassing turtles time-line. Or maybe you're the one who posted that and just decided to split them up? ;)

Either way, excellent work.

[DrSpengler]

That's pretty damn good. I'll re-read it just to make sure you didnt miss anything but, pretty damn good none the less.

*Edit*: Found one: What about the two part Casey Jones solo arc?

Oh, it's in there. Check "Post Return to New York, Pre City at War". That story, "North By Down East", was actually taken from "Plastron Cafe" because that series got cancelled before they could finish publishing it.

Also, how old were the TMNT in the very first issue? I'm sure I read it somewhere but I can't remember.

I need to know so that I can more accurately place "Fifteen Years Later" (since the TMNT are 15 years old in that story).

[AquaParade]

That's really impressive that you put all that together. Good job!

[CyberCubed]

Didn't Peter Laird say that the three-part "The River" from Volume 1 wasn't in continuity?

[Sparvid]

Great list!

Also, I don't own the second printing of the Michealangelo (microseries) #1 which contained a short Christmas story or the Tales Vol. 1 TPB which contained an additional Nobody short story, so I wasn't able to place those in the continuity.

If anybody DOES own them, please, help me figure out where they belong.
The Nobody story:
The Turtles and Nobody are aware of each other (well, duh)
The Turtles basically run into Nobody while out on patrol.
I had to check #48 to see if anyone there referred to Tales #2 as something like "the last time we met", but nope. So, it can go anywhere during a time period where the Turtles are living in Northhampton, sometime after Tales #2.

Also, how old were the TMNT in the very first issue? I'm sure I read it somewhere but I can't remember.

I need to know so that I can more accurately place "Fifteen Years Later" (since the TMNT are 15 years old in that story).
Splinter says: "...the mission for which I have trained you these past thirteen years"

In Vol. 1 #7, the Turtles are "fifteen and one half years old", according to Splinter

(Other ages: Return to New York is three years after #1, and according to a later letter column, Shades of Grey takes place "sometime shortly after issue 21 and Return to New York left off")


Addition: Challenges, which takes place sometime early in the Exile part of the chronology. But I'd put it after Tales #1, since that's shortly after they've moved in.

[Chris]

Very nice work! I might use some of the Tales Vol. 2 placements when I get to that in my own timeline.

Shelf there was a thread a while back with something like this, I posted a detailed WIP timeline including months/years that had the TMNT's ages in there, maybe that's the thread you were thinking of? It's very WIP, I'm covered all of Vol. 1 up to RTNY and all of Tales Vol. 1, so the dates may be revised a bit (Shadow's age in some of the Tales issues may require me to re-work a few things later on to try and make that fit with the TMNT being 12 in 1981 that was set in Tales Vol. 2 #1).

That project I'm doing in my spare time and it only covers the definately in continuity issues of Vol. 1, the 2 volumes of Tales, Vol.2 and Vol. 4, so DrSpengler has a lot of stuff on there that I won't have in mine since I don't own those issues (Turtle Soup, the Casey issues, the Usagi stuff, the small back ups from some of the early Vol. 1 issues and specials and I only have the collected books, etc)

The Turtles in Vol. 1 #1 are nearly 15. Splinter says it took them a year to reach their current size, then an undefined amount of time passed, then he trained them for 13 years.

The TMNT are 15 1/2 in the space story #4-7, then you have the Mike special. The Leo special/Vol. 1 #10 is a year later (16 1/2), then return to NY is another year after that (17 1/2). This fits with them being 15 in #1 as Leo says it's been about 3 years since #1 at that point (just over 2 1/2 years rounded up). So the "15 Years Later" story would probably actually come between #1 and #2!

Btw has it ever been confirmed exactly what is in continuity?

We know for sure all of Tales Vol. 1 and 2 as well as the 5 specials (Raph, Fugitoid, Mike, Don, Leo) all of Vol. 2 and 4.
From Vol. 1 we know for certain #1-15, 19-21, 27-29, 45-62
Other possibles are #17, 43 and probably some others like those on your list but I don't think they've ever been declared official cannon like the other issues have.
Has an official status ever been given to things like the Casey Jones: North by Downeast, Turtle Soup, Shell Shock, Challenges, the Usagi crossovers, etc? If they are then I'd better try and track them down asap!

Edit: And just to clear up one error I can see; Tales Vol.2 #2 takes place in what you would call "Vol. 3" as in a letters page Murphy said it took place in 1996 (Murphy said he couldn't remember why at that point) which places it after Vol. 2 when they have the new sewer lair.

[DrSpengler]

Fixed that Tales Vol. 2 #2 error. Also, kudos onthe extensive age breakdown. I placed "Fifteen Years Later" where you recommended.

Interesting thing about that story, is that the TMNT run across Chet while on their way to a battle with the Foot (Leo says to an angry Raph, "Save it for the Foot"). Personally, I like to think that this story takes place during #1, while the TMNT are on their way to their showdown with the Shredder. But that's my personal theory.

I e-mailed Dan a while back and asked about definitive canon. He gave me a very cursory list off the top of his head, saying that Laird has yet to determine precisely what he wants to keep and what he wants to cast aside. Dan's list of "for sures" was:

TMNT Vol. 1 #1-15, 17, 19-21, 45-62
TMNT Vol. 2 #1-13
TMNT Vol. 4 #1-28
All 5 Micro Series
Tales Vol. 1 #1-7
Tales Vol. 2 #1-31

A very "bare bones" list, but it's not like he had the time to go all in depth and craft a list like the one in this thread. The dude has a life, after all.


In regards to the River, it was referenced in "Shades of Grey" (I think, or maybe an early City at War story), which would imply that at the time it was wholely considered continuity.

However, Laird seems to think less of Veitch's work, lately. In a Vol. 4 letters page, someone recommended that "Sky Highway" be adapted into an episode of the 2k3 cartoon, to which Laird replied (to the effect of) "I have absolutely no plans to adapt any of Veitch's stories, though they may some day be collected in their own trade".

Whether this implies they're non-canon or not, I dunno. However, they certainly work with the canon just fine and are referenced by the "definate" material.


Oh, and Sparvid, thanks for the Nobody info. Before I work it in there, could you tell me the title of the story? Thanks!

[Chris]

Thanks! And I must say that theory on the story happening on the way to the battle makes a lot of sense, I really like it.

Guess Peter Laird hasn't been working on his timeline much as that's the same list that was going around about the time Vol. 4 started. We'll probably only know for sure when he eventually re-releases the stories in remastered trades.

The River was referenced in "Sons of the Silent Age", but it was one page that could be totally removed and not affect the story at all so if Peter Laird wants to remove it from continuity then it wouldn't affect anything.

[Sparvid]

Oh, and Sparvid, thanks for the Nobody info. Before I work it in there, could you tell me the title of the story? Thanks!
The only thing on the first splash page is "Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and the credits, no story title. No title listed on ninjaturtles.com either.

[DrSpengler]

The only thing on the first splash page is "Tales of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and the credits, no story title. No title listed on ninjaturtles.com either.

Thanks!

Just one more question. You said that this takes place when the TMNT are in Northampton. Is this during their exile to NH or when they were staying their voluntarily after RTNY?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but since I don't have the thing for reference I gotta be thorough. :)

Thanks! And I must say that theory on the story happening on the way to the battle makes a lot of sense, I really like it.

One thing about that I just noticed. In the "Fifteen Years Later" story, the kid's name was Chet. In the future story by Peter Laird, "Old Times", Donatello's computer system is also named Chet. Wondering if there's any signifigance to that or just a unique coincidence.

[Sparvid]

Thanks!

Just one more question. You said that this takes place when the TMNT are in Northampton. Is this during their exile to NH or when they were staying their voluntarily after RTNY?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but since I don't have the thing for reference I gotta be thorough. :)

Err, beats me? :) It can go either way, but since it's collected with the original Tales comics, I'm guessing that it would fit best somewhere close to them.

[DrSpengler]

Cool!

I put it in with the "Exile" era. Thanks for the info!


EDIT:

Also, added placement of Gizmo and the Fugitoid #1-2.

[Sparvid]

Stories from the Shell Shock TPB, not already on the list. I don't know which of these were originally printed somewhere else, and if so where. Bold text copied from official site:

---

"Bottoming Out" - A TMNT tale by Kevin Eastman, Jim Lawson, George Hagenaur, Eric Talbot and Steve Lavigne. 4 pages.

The Turtles are in a forest practising with Splinter (basically playing hide and seek, trying to find him). At first, it could be either in Central Park or in Northampton, no buildings are shown. They come across a man passed out on a park bench (so, more likely Central Park). Based on their general attitude towards the training ("I hate this exercise, Splinter always wins", "Remember, we're supposed to find him before he finds us") and a somewhat despaired reaction when they fail to find Splinter, I'd put this fairly early in the timeline. They're wearing the regular bandanas though.

---

"The Treaty" - Usagi Yojimbo and Leonardo team-up by Stan Sakai. 10 pages.

Leonardo is on his way back to April's apartment in New York when he's transported to Usagi's world. He recognizes Usagi from Turtle Soup #1 and Usagi #10, according to the editor's note. Usagi is surprised to hear Leonardo mentioning the existance of his brothers, Splinter, and New York City.

---

"Junkman" - A Donatello story by Michael Dooney. 10 pages.

The Turtles are living in their sewer lair.

---

"New York Ninja" - Donatello solo adventure by Kevin Eastman, Peter Laird, Ryan Brown and Steve Lavigne. 10 pages.

New York. Donatello is hiding from Raphael (damn, they really like hide and seek, don't they?). The loser of the game will have to do the dishes for a week. Do they have running water and dishes in the sewer, or does this mean that they're living at April's?

---

"New Comic Day" - A Michaelangelo tale by Peter Laird, Jim Lawson and Steve Lavigne. 6 pages.

April's apartment. Michaelangelo comes back with a bunch of comics he's bought (umm, how?) and is attacked by the chair before he wakes up from his nightmare. Although, considering the last page shows the chair "really alive" when being alone, it might not be in continuity.

---

"Teen Techno Trio Plus One" - An alternate universe TMNT story by Don Simpson. 9 pages.

Obviously not in continuity.

---

"Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" - The Turtles retrieve a lost sword by Kevin Eastman, Peter Laird, Ryan Brown and Steve Lavigne. 5 pages.

First chapter in a story which continues in "Quest for Dreams Lost", which appears to feature non-Mirage characters. I don't have that one, but it could be out of continuity. It seems a bit weird for Splinter and two of the Turtles to be in a row boat in a Central Park pond, even if it is in the middle of the night. Pretty hard to stay hidden out there, no matter how much of a ninja you are.

---

"Stompers" - All four Turtles in a gang battle by Kevin Eastman, Michael Dooney and Steve Lavigne. 12 pages.

The Turtles appears to be living in the sewers. Local crime lord to Leonardo: "I've got a few connections in this town - I'm sure the Foot organization has some meaning to you... ninja." Putting this after Vol. 1 #1, right?

---

"Terror by Transmat!" - The TMNT, Fugitoid and Utroms battle the Triceratons by Kevin Eastman, Peter Laird, Ryan Brown and Steve Lavigne. 10 pages.

The Turtles are visiting the Utrom home world and Fugitoid on a separate occasion ("A lot more relaxing than the first time we came here").

---

"O Deed" - Michaelangelo's nightmare by Michael Zulli, Stephen Murphy and Eric Talbot. 6 pages.

As it says: Michaelangelo has a nightmare. He's sleeping in a bed in a room with a window, with Splinter being close enough to enter as soon as Michaelangelo wakes up.

---

"D'Ants Fever" - The TMNT visit a seedy bar filled with aliens by Kevin Eastman, Peter Laird and Steve Lavigne. 8 pages.

During #5, after they've been talking to Fugitoid about where they came from. It could technically go before they enter the bar showed in #5 (this story begins with them finding a bar and ends with them about to leave it), but then it seems a bit weird they they are astonished seeing all different alien creatures in the #5 bar, if they've already met a bunch in this story.

---

"Don't Judge a Book..." - The Turtles prepare for a Halloween party but are interrupted by burglars by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird. 8 pages.

They're in April's apartment when the burglars break into the Second Time Around. (Burglar who's checking if somebody is home: "Ah... Is Chet there?" ;))

---

"Not One Word" - Donatello has a bad day by Eric Talbot. 10 pages.

They're living in April's apartment.

---

"Splinter in the Eye of God?" - Splinter contemplates his life by Michael Zulli and Stephen Murphy. 8 pages.

As opposed to the earlier Zulli story, the Turtles look less humanoid here (no teeth, for example). Splinter is meditating in a regular looking room with a door and roof beams, doesn't look "sewer-y".

---

"Night Life" - The Turtles capture some cop killers by Kevin Eastman, Ryan Brown and Steve Lavigne. 6 pages.

"Saved by the shell" - is that one of the earliest shell puns? New York. After a policeman is killed by a gang, the rest of the police sees the Turtles who flee ("I think we finally lost the police - That was close, the closest yet!") At the end one of them (can't see who, but not Leonardo) wonders if they did the right thing, letting the killers live (but capturing them and leaving them to the police to find), and get's the responses "I guess so" and "We did. We had no right to do anything else". I don't know whether or not their stance on killing changed in the early days, and if this helps with the chronology)

---

"It's a Gas" - Mike and Raph get a snoot full of nitrous oxide while trying to prevent a burgalry by Eric Talbot and Steve Lavigne. 6 pages.

New York. The place the burglars break into? "Chet's Medical Supplies" :)

---

"Meanwhile... 1,000,000 B.C." - Renet and the Turtles have some prehistoric fun by Michael Dooney. 2 pages.

While caught in the past during Tales #7.

[DrSpengler]

Oh man, I don't have the Shell Shock collection.

Gonna have to eBay it. Thanks for the info. So many stories, though, I'm gonna wait until I have a copy before I attempt to put it all together.

That Usagi story alone could completely change where I've placed the other Usagi crossovers.

EDIT:

Alright, I just went on eBay and won a copy of Shell Shock for $36 bucks. Not bad, considering the thing is 200 pages. I'll get it soon (hopefully) and work it into the timeline!

[Straight-Edge]

The TMNT are 15 1/2 in the space story #4-7, then you have the Mike special. The Leo special/Vol. 1 #10 is a year later (16 1/2), then return to NY is another year after that (17 1/2). This fits with them being 15 in #1 as Leo says it's been about 3 years since #1 at that point (just over 2 1/2 years rounded up). So the "15 Years Later" story would probably actually come between #1 and #2!


That's what will never work with comic time: Ages. Granted, we've got V4 telling us 15 years have passed since who knows when exactly, but if you stick to passage of time and the like, you get these huge spans of time that need to be dealt with.

I would never have thought to stick an entire year in between the Mikey One-Shot and Leo's. It just feels like Mikey story happens in early December, while Leo's happens on Christmas Day.

BTB, Spengler, I just checked out my copy of Mikey's Christmas Special, and the back-up story "A Christmas Carol" deals with Raphael cutting out on the gang for Christmas. He is visted by the ghost of Christmas Past, who shows him their last Christmas in the sewer, and the Christmas where April's Apartment is burned down. At the end of the story, Raph goes home, and the guys are living in an apartment building, so I'd assume this occurs after City At War.

[DrSpengler]

BTB, Spengler, I just checked out my copy of Mikey's Christmas Special, and the back-up story "A Christmas Carol" deals with Raphael cutting out on the gang for Christmas. He is visted by the ghost of Christmas Past, who shows him their last Christmas in the sewer, and the Christmas where April's Apartment is burned down. At the end of the story, Raph goes home, and the guys are living in an apartment building, so I'd assume this occurs after City At War.

Muchas gracias! :)

Just one mroe question, is Donatello living in the apartment at the end, too? If so then it probably takes place some time after Vol. 2 (at the end of Vol.1, Don stayed with Splinter in the cave in Northampton).


Also, I finally got my Shell Shock collection in the mail today, so I'll start reading it and placing the stories in the next couple of days.

[Straight-Edge]

Muchas gracias! :)
Just one mroe question, is Donatello living in the apartment at the end, too? If so then it probably takes place some time after Vol. 2 (at the end of Vol.1, Don stayed with Splinter in the cave in Northampton).


It looked like all four were there. So, yeah, Best bet is post-V2.

Good luck getting everything sorted out. You're doing a great job so far!

[DrSpengler]

Awesome! The first post has now been updated to include that story. Again, thanks for the help. :)

I started thumbing through Shell Shock and noticed an Usagi Yojimbo crossover I didn't even know existed!

I started a thread (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showthread.php?t=19000) asking if there were any Usagi crossovers besides Turtle Soup (one shot), Usagi Vol. 1 #10 and Usagi Vol. 2 #1-3 and I was told I had em all (despite Raph saying Leo and Usagi had met three times before "Shades of Green").

Looks like this one is quite obscure. Can't wait to read it.

[Spitfire]

What does "Fun With Guns" look like? I've seen the Raph one shot on Ebay and one with him and Casey and their on a rooftop with guns I figured it was a variant cover but I could be wrong.

[DrSpengler]

What does "Fun With Guns" look like? I've seen the Raph one shot on Ebay and one with him and Casey and their on a rooftop with guns I figured it was a variant cover but I could be wrong.

It's the second printing which comes with the additional "Fun with Guns" back-up story. Just about the only thing of note to happen in that story is Casey expressing his talent for graffiti artwork.

Otherwise, the story's pretty bad and reeks of Kevin Eastman's occassional "I wish I was Frank Miller" syndrome.

[Spitfire]

Yeah that's the one I've seen, cool stuff. It's only a buck in most auctions maybe I'll nab it. I like the cover.

[VaughnMichael]

http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/volume01/raph/raphcover2.jpg

It's the second printing which comes with the additional "Fun with Guns" back-up story. Just about the only thing of note to happen in that story is Casey expressing his talent for graffiti artwork.

Otherwise, the story's pretty bad and reeks of Kevin Eastman's occassional "I wish I was Frank Miller" syndrome.
Wow really cause I just recently got this reprint and really enjoyed the short story allot.
I've never actully looked at millers work before but reguardless I thought the art was very nice and is something I miss allot in the world of tmnt.

[Chris]

That's what will never work with comic time: Ages. Granted, we've got V4 telling us 15 years have passed since who knows when exactly, but if you stick to passage of time and the like, you get these huge spans of time that need to be dealt with.

I would never have thought to stick an entire year in between the Mikey One-Shot and Leo's. It just feels like Mikey story happens in early December, while Leo's happens on Christmas Day.

Actually TMNT is one of the few comics where the ages actually work out. Granted Superman and Batman haven't really ever aged but the TMNT did throughout the course of Vol. 1 and that has continued since.

The years listed in the comics don't work out as they were attempting to keep up with the time they were published (this is probably something PL will change with his re-done versions), but the internal aging of the TMNT and how long was said to have passed all work fine.

And read the Leo special again, it says it's the TMNT's second real Christmas, the first was the Mikey special. In the year gap you have Vol. 1 #8 and the Tales Vol. 1 issues set in NY, that's not much but then there's not much "official cannon" between RTNY and City at War either and that's just under another year of time.

[DrSpengler]

Wow really cause I just recently got this reprint and really enjoyed the short story allot.
I've never actully looked at millers work before but reguardless I thought the art was very nice and is something I miss allot in the world of tmnt.

I just have a problem with the TMNT using guns, even Raph. Eastman, as much as I love him, sometimes had a tendency to lay on the grit really REALLY thick to the point where it just came off as a bad Frank Miller parody (yeah yeah yeah, TMNT were born as a Frank Miller parody, but you know what I mean).

Bodycount was one of the worst TMNT stories I've ever read.


I guess "Fun With Guns" wasn't that bad, I just think firearms should be left to the villains and not put in the hands of the Turtles.

[DrSpengler]

Okay, the timeline and notes posts have been updated with all the stories from Shell Shock.

Several of the stories in Shell Shock were reprinted from previous TMNT or Mirage anthology books, back-up stories etc. A few took place within Zulli's "Soul's Winter" universe and one was a wacky fun goofy story (so I omitted those).

As noted in the Notes post, nearly all the stories in Shell Shock take place during the Living With April era, so unless they had something indicating a very specific placement, I lumped them together.

For example, "100,000,000 BC" took place while the TMNT were still stuck in the past after "Return of Savanti Romero". "The Treaty" was the third crossover with Usagi Yojimbo. "Don't Judge a Book" was a Halloween story. "Rick's Dive" takes place during TMNT #5. "Terror by Transmat" has to take place after "Gizmo & the Fugitoid", as Honeycutt has finally made it to the Utrom homeworld. And "Junk Man" features the TMNT living in the sewers, so it would have to take place Post Return to New York.

[Spitfire]

Bodycount was one of the worst TMNT stories I've ever read.

You must not read Tales Volume 2 much then, those Cowboy Of Moo Mesa crossovers are horrid. Rock Of Ages is crap to. And Volume 4 is one long story arc of non-stop suck.

I also found the very early "Turtles In Space" story arc to be rather boring. But that could be because I didn't like the episodes that much either.

[VaughnMichael]

You must not read Tales Volume 2 much then, those Cowboy Of Moo Mesa crossovers are horrid. Rock Of Ages is crap to. And Volume 4 is one long story arc of non-stop suck.

I also found the very early "Turtles In Space" story arc to be rather boring. But that could be because I didn't like the episodes that much either.
I say it's all a matter of opinion personally I don't have a problem with anything either of you guys listed.
Why? cause it's all differnt things in all differnt tmnt universes.
Image TMNT was pretty violent so I don't see why bodycount should be any differnt.
Kevin & the Bizz for the most part do storys of that nature allot it's really nothing new for either of them to do a violent story like that.

[DrSpengler]

Alright, I added Tales Vol. 2 #s 33 and 34 to the list.

Both are fantastic issues, BTW, and follow up on some very important unresolved arcs.

Also interesting is that in the back-up story, "Credo", when Don mentions friends they show Gizmo and Fluffi! Does that mean the TMNT had an encounter with the two of them which hasn't been seen yet? Man, I hope so.

[discordiatookie]

HOLY CRAP this is some list! That's a helluva lot of homework you guys have done here! You all get an A+ each, and DrSpengler, you also get a gold star, for even attempting this thing on your own! I tried once and just couldn't hack it. Too much research, ya dig? I'm seriously thinking about rearranging my comics into chronological order now...

Oh, and where's the sticky? Surely this deserves one!!!

[DrSpengler]

Oh, and where's the sticky? Surely this deserves one!!!

That's what *I* wanna know! ;)


The only reason I was able to pull this off is because I spent two years painstakingly amassing a complete collection, while simultaneously refusing to read *any* of it until my collection was complete.

Then, once all the hard work was done, I sat down to read every issue and construct this list at the same time.

Twas a fun project, it twas. But alas, I fear I have run out of material to add to it. :cry:

[TristanHuwJones]

One thing I just noticed about your timeline there Spengs is that you've placed the three Berger stories (Virus, it's sequel and Splinter Cell all together). While I can totally understand your P.O.V., I've placed them a little further apart, as Splinter Cell tells us that Hana had been staking out the Turtles for six or so months, which could (only a could!) mean that other stories have happened between each. Just thought you might be interested in another P.O.V., no need to alter it though;)

[DrSpengler]

One thing I just noticed about your timeline there Spengs is that you've placed the three Berger stories (Virus, it's sequel and Splinter Cell all together). While I can totally understand your P.O.V., I've placed them a little further apart, as Splinter Cell tells us that Hana had been staking out the Turtles for six or so months, which could (only a could!) mean that other stories have happened between each. Just thought you might be interested in another P.O.V., no need to alter it though;)

That's very true!

I mostly put them together because the "Leatherhead Trilogy" (as I call it) plus "Splinter Cell" read extremely well together.

I did a similar thing with the Usagi stories. There's a good chance plenty of other "Living with April" tales could happen in-between each Usagi encounter, but they all read well together and there isn't any contradictions to that placement (unless I missed something, in which case, I need to know!).

[Fledermaus]

Wow...

I didn't think twice about this thread because I didn't need it before, but this is great. Thanks so much for going to the trouble for the rest of us. :D

[Scandia]

I just wanted to tell you, like many other users have already, that your timeline is extremely helpful. I have enjoyed it very much. It is very beneficial when it comes to collecting and reading the comics. Kudos to you!

[Tigershard]

I would also like to give my thanks for your hard work. When I go and re-read the entire series myself I will make sure to refer to your time line to keep things straight, and avoid some of the horrendous issues that made their way into vol. 1.

[Andrew NDB]

Didn't Peter Laird say that the three-part "The River" from Volume 1 wasn't in continuity?

It has to be. There's flashbacks to the events of "The River" in the Lawson/Laird/Eastman "Sons of the Silent Age."

[Andrew NDB]

There's every reason to believe the TMNT are 13 in Vol. 1 #1, not 15.

[Roseangelo]

In #1, Splinter had trained the Turtles for 13 years. Fifteen years before the night the Turtles encountered the Purple Dragons Shredder killed Hamato Yoshi, shortly after which Splinter and the Turtles came in contact with the ooze.

[Scandia]

Yeah. I think that during the first 2 years, Splinter was not able to train them much in Ninjitsu. He was busier teaching them how to walk and talk and keeping Raph and Mikey from straying too far away.

[Andrew NDB]

In #1, Splinter had trained the Turtles for 13 years. Fifteen years before the night the Turtles encountered the Purple Dragons Shredder killed Hamato Yoshi, shortly after which Splinter and the Turtles came in contact with the ooze.

We don't know how long Splinter was running around after Yoshi was killed. Horribly simplifying all the evidence, but the main point is that it was "Three years ago I saw you die!" to Shredder in "Return to New York," and we know the TMNT are still only 16 (into 17) during "City at War." They could only have been 13 in #1.

[Fledermaus]

We don't know how long Splinter was running around after Yoshi was killed. Horribly simplifying all the evidence, but the main point is that it was "Three years ago I saw you die!" to Shredder in "Return to New York," and we know the TMNT are still only 16 (into 17) during "City at War." They could only have been 13 in #1.

Whoa, I'm gonna have to ask Dan about that one. :o (That is an important detail...)

BTW, anyone else think that this thread OUGHT TO BE STICKIED? :D

[Andrew NDB]

Whoa, I'm gonna have to ask Dan about that one. :o (That is an important detail...)

BTW, anyone else think that this thread OUGHT TO BE STICKIED? :D

Which detail?

Vol. 1, #21 Leonardo to Saki : "Three years ago I saw you die!"

Vol. 1, #59 (City at War) : (the lettercol) "Yes, the Turtles are [now] 16. The chronology is based on issue 48 picking up sometime shortly after issue 21 and 'Return to New York' left off."

[Scandia]

Sticky this thread! Sticky this thread!!!

[Time Mistress]

It has to be. There's flashbacks to the events of "The River" in the Lawson/Laird/Eastman "Sons of the Silent Age."

I mentioned the exact same thing in another thread. I love The River. Reread it again a few days ago, it still makes me want to cry when April says "No baby, not this time." Laird would have to elimate an entire page of Lawson's artwork to get rid of the SofSA reference.

As for Leo's "I saw you die 3 years ago," doesn't it say in issue 1 that the TMNT are only 13 when they first "kill" Shredder.

Yes, sticky this thread!

[Andrew NDB]

As for Leo's "I saw you die 3 years ago," doesn't it say in issue 1 that the TMNT are only 13 when they first "kill" Shredder.

Not directly, apart from Splinter remarking he's trained them for 13 years. Still, they pretty much have to be 13 in it from the other evidence, then 16 in Return to New York and into City at War (turning 17 at some point during City at War, as it spans an entire year).

[Scandia]

Where exactly does it say that they are 16 when City at War starts?

[Chris]

In TMNT #1 it says that it took a year for them to grow to their current size, and after that an unknown amount of time passes before the TMNT start walking and talking, it is then they start the 13 years training.

The TMNT are AT LEAST 14 in Vol. 1#1, although I would guess they are almost 15 based on later events.

Regardless they are 15 1/2 in TMNT Vol. 1 #4-7. Then they have their first X-Mas (Mikey special)

It's a year later (they actually say it's their second real X-Mas) in the Leo special where Shredder returns. They would be around or just over 16 1/2 by this point.

A year later again they return to NY and kill Shredder (aged around/just over 17 1/2). (Therefore the TMNT being just over 14 1/2 or just under 15 is the closest to the 3 years you'll probably be able get, they certainly can't be 13 in Vol. 1 #1 for that statement to be true)

City at War runs from just under a year after that to just over a year after that (I worked it out at October to March at one point but I;d have to finf my notes for all the detailed reasons why) with Karai at one point saying it's been about a year since Shredder died. So the TMNT would 18, probably pushing 19 by the end of that story arc.

That's going off events in the comics themselves, not letter cols. The only thing in the comics that would contradict this is them turning 18 at the start of the Image comics but they're non-cannon anyway so that doesn't matter.

The one page referencing The River can easily be removed and have no affect on the rest of "Sons of the Silent Age", I think that's what Laird will do when he reprints it.

[Andrew NDB]

In TMNT #1 it says that it took a year for them to grow to their current size, and after that an unknown amount of time passes before the TMNT start walking and talking, it is then they start the 13 years training.

The TMNT are AT LEAST 14 in Vol. 1#1, although I would guess they are almost 15 based on later events.

Regardless they are 15 1/2 in TMNT Vol. 1 #4-7. Then they have their first X-Mas (Mikey special)

It's a year later (they actually say it's their second real X-Mas) in the Leo special where Shredder returns. They would be around or just over 16 1/2 by this point.

A year later again they return to NY and kill Shredder (aged around/just over 17 1/2). (Therefore the TMNT being just over 14 1/2 or just under 15 is the closest to the 3 years you'll probably be able get, they certainly can't be 13 in Vol. 1 #1 for that statement to be true)

City at War runs from just under a year after that to just over a year after that (I worked it out at October to March at one point but I;d have to finf my notes for all the detailed reasons why) with Karai at one point saying it's been about a year since Shredder died. So the TMNT would 18, probably pushing 19 by the end of that story arc.

That's going off events in the comics themselves, not letter cols. The only thing in the comics that would contradict this is them turning 18 at the start of the Image comics but they're non-cannon anyway so that doesn't matter.

The one page referencing The River can easily be removed and have no affect on the rest of "Sons of the Silent Age", I think that's what Laird will do when he reprints it.

You've obviously done your homework, too, but I personally try to take everything in Vol. 1 at its word until we're told otherwise by Laird. But your points are equally valid.

About the lettercol in the middle of City at War :

TMNT Vol. 1, #59: (response in lettercol) "Yes, the Turtles are [now] 16. The chronology is based on issue 48 picking up sometime shortly after issue 21 and 'Return to New York' left off."

So we kind of have to work backward from that.

[Chris]

I agree on "The River", it's not on the continuity lists given out, but it is referenced in "Sons of the Silent Age". I personally think he'll just remove the page, but until those works are re-published then I agree that Laird hasn't made his final say and it's open to debate (plus it doesn't hurt continuity either way).

I agree take everything in the comics at its word, but I place more importance on the events in the comics than the answers in the letter col. Here the timeline within the story shows that the age given in the letter answer is wrong.

Yes there was a lot of manipulating dates within the comics to fit with real time (I think the Shredder's return has been listed at 1987 and 1988, and if you work it out based on the new dates provided by Tales Vol. 2 regarding the TMNT's age then it's something like 1986!) but if you go just by events in the comics then what I posted above is how it works out.

The only thing I can't work out now is how the TMNT are 12 in 1981 (Tales Vol. 2 #1) and 16 in 1987 (Tales Vol. 2 #33, backup). It just can't work out. I could understand it in Vol. 1 as they were trying to keep up with real time, but now they're adding back stories and working to Peter Laird's timeline so that shouldn't be an issue. I'm tempted to say 12 in 1981 is the true date as it was written by Murphy rather than a guest writer who most likely used the old Vol. 1 issues for his dates rather than an official timeline (still a a very cool story though).

[Andrew NDB]

Can see how I kind of rectify the dates vs. ages on this page :

http://www.ninjaturtlesempire.com/ttime.html

[Chris]

They are cool timelines and I appreciate the amount of work you put into them.

But dates aside, the TMNT are still at LEAST 14 in Vol. 1 #1 based on 1 year growth and 13 years training (plus an unknown amount of time where they started walking and talking).
They are 15 1/2 in Vol. 1 #4-7, which makes them about 16 1/2 when Shredder returns the following Christmas and 17 1/2 for the events in ROTY. That's going not off dates (which we both agree in Vol. 1 were changed every year almost to keep up with real time) but off dialogue in the comics saying how long it had been from one event to the next. Mikey and Leo are both set at Christmas and are set a year apart, it doesn't matter which year that is, it still puts the TMNT around 16 1/2 when Shredder returns as they were roughly 15 1/2 in Mikey (which came soon after Vol. 1 #1-7 which said they were 15 1/2).

The only way around that is to say Mikey and Leo specials are the same year, which would put them at 16 1/2 for RTNY, but this idea is contradicted in the Leo special which clearly states that it's their second real Christmas (ie second Christmas above ground where they can actually take part in the festivities more) and both are set on Christmas eve.

[odupianist]

Sticky anyone?

[Andrew NDB]

I would say that Bodycount #1-4 takes place between the Raphael one-shot and #10 of Vol. 1... Casey mentions in #10 he was a bouncy at a place called Torchy's and threw guys out bigger than Shredder -- I think we SEE that in Bodycount.

[DrSpengler]

My problem with placing Bodycount that early in the timeline is that it introduces Casey's "star spangled hockey mask", which he only ever uses again in the Image series. I'd like to think it takes place a little closer to the Image series than that (though it would have to take place before Casey tried to hook up with April, since he's macking on that mob chick throughout the whole story).

Also, added "Road Hogs" to the timeline. Thanks!

[DrSpengler]

For some odd reason I completely overlooked TMNT Vol. 1 #37 "Twilight of the Ring". I even included its prologue story from Turtle Soup Vol. 2 #1 "The Ring".

I added it to the timeline and shifted "The Ring" down to the proper place.

[Scandia]

For such a small comics company, Mirage sure has released A LOT of series.

Anyhow, in "Credo", Donatello states that it is now 1987 and that he is 16 years old. Whether he just turned 16 or whether he will be turning 17 later in the year it is not said. I am assuming Donatello is the second oldest Turtle.

[Chris]

I think the Credo date is inaccurate. I can't be sure and you'd need to ask Murphy or Laird for confirmation, but here's why;

In Tales Vol. 2 #1 it states the TMNT are 12 in 1981. This means the age timeline is;

1981 - 11/12 or 12/13
1982 - 12/13 or 13/14
1883 - 13/14 or 14/15
1984 - 14/15 or 15/16
1985 - 15/16 or 16/17
1986 - 16/17 or 17/18
1987 - 17/18 or 18/19

Since Murphy was (I believe) writing that age/date based on Laird's official timeline I'd say that the age of 12 in 1981 is correct over the age of 16 in 1987. But like I said that's not been officially confirmed (though I think the age of 11/12 in 1981 best matches up with the flow of events and Shadow's age later in Tales Vol. 2 but I'd have to check when I reach that point in my detailed timeline) and probably won't be unless someone asks Murphy in a letter col or if he posts in this thread to clear it up.

[Andrew NDB]

Should include Dan Berger's Digital Webbing tale (which almost certainly takes place between Vol. 1 #1 and #10). Also Muscle & Faith.

[DrSpengler]

Managed to find a copy of Fist of Justice #24 so I could check the Digital Webbing story for myself (cost me $7 bucks, too!).

It's hard to tell what sewer era this takes place in. Could be between Vol. 1 #1-2 or it could be Post Return to New York. It likely isn't "Vol. 3" since the Foot aren't supposed to be their enemies anymore (though as Tales Vol. 2 has proven they HAVE had some encounters with rogue Foot Soldiers).

It's a toss-up, but I'd put it in the Post Return to New York era. It can go either way, though.

Also, BEAUTIFUL story. Some of the best computer coloring I've ever seen.

As for Muscle & Faith, I *still* haven't gotten around to reading it. Gonna do that soon, though.

[Scandia]

I just read "Loops" today. While it can be placed in any of those four points, it does show the most from the 8 year old Leo. So definitely leave it in the "Toddler Turtles" section.

[DrSpengler]

Alright, got around to reading Muscle and Faith.

I stuck it next to North by Downeast as the structure of both stories were very similar and the two compliment one another rather well.

The wrap-around features the Turtles living in the sewer long after they'd met Casey, but with Splinter still alive. The ACTUAL story, though, is read from Sister Sally's diary and feature a Casey solo adventure. In that regard, it's similar to North by Downeast (Turtles living in sewer during the wrap-around, though the actual story is a Casey solo adventure which takes place earlier in the timeline).

I think it fits in there pretty well.

[Andrew NDB]

It's a toss-up, but I'd put it in the Post Return to New York era.

Why? (just out of curiosity)

[DrSpengler]

Mostly becaue its a toss-up and I just picked one.

But it seemed to fit with other stories like "Kung Fu Theater" which had the TMNT meeting up with random remnants of the Foot Clan and kicking their butts with ease. It seemed to fit with the idea that following the death of the Clone Shredder the stragglers of the Foot Clan were left weak and unorganized. I think a story where Raph single-handedly crushes a unit of Foot Soldiers while getting Chinese take-out displays that concept perfectly.

It could fit in between Vol. 1 #1 and 2, but I feel wary of trying to shoe horn stories around there for some reason.

[Andrew NDB]

Mostly becaue its a toss-up and I just picked one.

But it seemed to fit with other stories like "Kung Fu Theater" which had the TMNT meeting up with random remnants of the Foot Clan and kicking their butts with ease. It seemed to fit with the idea that following the death of the Clone Shredder the stragglers of the Foot Clan were left weak and unorganized. I think a story where Raph single-handedly crushes a unit of Foot Soldiers while getting Chinese take-out displays that concept perfectly.

It could fit in between Vol. 1 #1 and 2, but I feel wary of trying to shoe horn stories around there for some reason.

Though there's been stories with this or that beyond it with the Foot, I think for any shoehorning of Turtles-fighting-Foot stories, probably the best default would be pre-City at War/pre-Truce.

[DrSpengler]

Though there's been stories with this or that beyond it with the Foot, I think for any shoehorning of Turtles-fighting-Foot stories, probably the best default would be pre-City at War/pre-Truce.

Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way. It could, of course, take place just about any time between Post RTNY/Pre CAW, but like I said, it reminded me of Kung Fu Theater a bit so I stuck it by that one.

[DrSpengler]

*scrubbed by user for notes being out of date*

[Scandia]

Just bumping up this thread, since you have no idea how useful it has been to me.

It is also interesting to compare where each story was placed in the original Mirage comics vs. the 2k3 cartoon. Amazing how both seem to work out quite well.

[TristanHuwJones]

*"The Pantheon" from Tales Vol. 2 #35 took some thinking. Splinter doesn't recognize the Rat King at all. But then, he doesn't recognize him when they meet in City at War. This can be explained in that its possible Splinter's memories of his first encounter with the Rat King and the Pantheon went fuzzy after he returned to the physical world. Now, this has to take place before the TMNT meet the Rat King at the old factory, too. For one thing, Rat King is still alive and he isn't nuts. I took it as this, after Splinter beat him, the Pantheon returned Rat King to Earth where he went nuts and eventually died after meeting the TMNT. So that means, since Splinter is living in the sewers and this takes place before Tales Vol. 1 #4, it happened before Vol. 1 #1. How long before Vol. 1 #1 is uncertain.

I also read this one as being a pre-TMNT Vol. 1 #1, also pre-Tales Vol.2 #1, using pretty much the same reasoning you've put forward here. You could read it either way, putting it anywhere from the very beginning to Tales Vol.1 #4, but it certainly makes sense having it before everything else.

[DrSpengler]

Okay, I FINALLY got my copy of Challenges in the mail today. Fantastic book, btw. I especially liked Leo's tale (heh, "Barry Manilow fanclub").

I placed it in the Post RTNY era but specifically between Twilight of the Ring and Juliet's Revenge because it was published in 1991 concurrently with those issues. In reality, like a lot of the stories from that era, it could fit in just about anywhere during that time period.

[DrSpengler]

Okay, so its now been updated with Tales #36 and Bad Moon Rising #1.

I placed Bad Moon Rising before Paris Nocturne for the monet since it says its a direct follow-up to Darkness Weaves. But if vampire reference to Paris Nocturne show up in the book I'll be sure to move it.

[Scandia]

I have a small question:

In Mirage Volume 1 Number 8 "Team up with Cerebus", Renet travels to the year 1986. But in Credo, Donatello says it is February 1987. So shouldn't this one go first?

[DrSpengler]

I have a small question:

In Mirage Volume 1 Number 8 "Team up with Cerebus", Renet travels to the year 1986. But in Credo, Donatello says it is February 1987. So shouldn't this one go first?

You're right! I had forgotten they'd mentioned the year in Vol. 1 #8. So I bumped Credo ahead accordingly.

Thanks!

[odupianist]

Damn, where is Credo again? I know I jsut read it too lol

[Scandia]

"Credo" is in Tales Volume 2 Number 33.

[odupianist]

Thank you.

[Scandia]

In "To Serve and Protect", they have not seen Splinter and Don in almost a year. And it has been stated that it does NOT take place immediately after "City At War" ends. So it seems to me that it takes place somewhere in the middle of Volume 2. Before number 8 of volume 2, but not at the very beginning. Didn't Volume 2 start right after City at War ends anyway?

[odupianist]

I think it had been awhile. They were bored and had been for some time I thought.

[Scandia]

And if they were so bored, why did they not go up to Northampton to see their father and brother?

Plot hole, plot hole, major plot hole!!!

[odupianist]

They might have, who knows, but I think at the end of CaW someone mentions that they needed time to figure things out. I think it was Don.

[DrSpengler]

Plot hole, plot hole, major plot hole!!!

Yeah, Mirage is fulla those.

[The Big Bad]

What happened to Don at the end of vol. 2--did he remain in Northampton, or did he rejoin his brohters? Can To Protect and Serve occur after Volume 2?

[Scandia]

From what I gather given what the synopses on NinjaTurtles.com say, he did rejoin his brothers and they all moved back to the sewers in NY.

I think "To Serve and Protect" happens in the middle of volume 2 just before Donatello rejoins his brothers.

And "Credo" states a February 1987 date. But "True Stories" also features dates around this time. So it either happens in Northampton or it is another Mirage flub.

[TristanHuwJones]

You could probably set it after Vol 2. Don might have gone back to Northampton to resume training with Splinter. In my mind, it's set AROUND Vol.2, so I suggest you just pick where you think it fits best :D !

[DrSpengler]

Okay, just read Tales #37 and I can't figure out where it should go in the timeline.

Casey's origin was completely made up, so all the fashbacks don't count. But the present day story is what I can't place. I don't think there's really anything to go by so I might just have to guess it in there somewhere, but I'd like to get some ideas as to where some of you think it should go.

Edit: whoops, needs spoiler tags.

[TristanHuwJones]

GAH! Someone needs to spoiler tag this thread!

[DrSpengler]

Alright, I made my decision.

*Tales #37 "Casey in Point" is pretty much impossible to place since there are no defining elements or references to drop it in a certain timeframe. So I stuck it in with "Muscle & Faith" and "North by Downeast" because it could easily fit in that timeframe and it compliments the two other Casey-centric stories nicely.

There's lots of places it could go, but I just stuck it there because it works well with the other Casey stories.

[turkishproverb]

CONTINUITY NOTES LAST UPDATED: 6/13/07*The Image migrane. As we all know, the Image series is the *real* TMNT Vol. 3 and is most certainly not a part of the Mirage continuity. However, when it first started...it was. As a result, you've got an issue of TMNT Vol. 2 where Raph references their first crossover with the Savage Dragon, and even has a little editor's note telling the reader to check out the Savage Dragon crossover. This is completely irreconcilable and just another continuity flub you have to "ignore".HERE. (http://forums.thetechnodrome.com/showpost.php?p=526781&postcount=72)

Ah, I'm not saying it has to be that your wrong, but does it have ot be either or?

Isn't it possible the turtles Savage dragon appearances and crossovers are Cannon, but the rest of the image stuff (V. 3) isn't?

[DrSpengler]

Added the two stories from Tales #38.

I put them before Young Leo's segments from Loops, but they could just as easily take place before. I felt they should go before Vol. 1 #9, though, because the TMNT are much less mature in these stories than in #9.

[odupianist]

Why isn't this sticky-ed yet? Just curious :)

[DrSpengler]

Stickied! AT LAST! I thought this day would never come. :cry:

Updated with Tales #39. I *think* that's where it oughta go, but if anybody has a more precise location, speak up!

[Scandia]

I think "What Wolves Wear" should be in Volume 3. They may have the tattoos, but who knows if that had been the first time they used them and they just reused them for the Utroms? I am going by the fact that Leonardo is telling the tale to a 5 year old Shadow.

And I am still convinced that "To Serve and Protect" goes best in the middle of Volume 2.

[TristanHuwJones]

In my mind, yeah it does too. There's a bit of a grey area in the early issues of vol.2 that allows for it. It could also come before vol.2, or if someone wrote the right tale, after it. The sequel I pitched would've cleared it up, but I don;t think that will be happening anytime soon unfortunately :(

[Scandia]

Looking at the synopses of Volume 2, it does look like it does happen indeed in between the early issues, like 2 or 3. Definitely before number 7.

[DrSpengler]

Well, Tristan, you wrote the story so I think its up to you to put this to rest.

Shall I move it so that it's placed between Vol. 2 #2 and #3, or should I leave it as is?

[TristanHuwJones]

When I wrote #36 I had it set between either #2 and #3 of Vol.2 or #3 and #4. The reason being that these issues seem to be more encapsulated than the other issues of the grander Vol.2 arc. There's enough time for #36 to easily happen between either, but after reading City at War again and Volume 2 again, it does sit rather nicely as a Pre-Volume 2 story, kind of a distant follow-up to CAW. I'm actually still waiting to hear back on the follow-up stories I pitched, which will allow me to give you a definite answer depending on which is approved (if any - the planned sequel - which was plotted alongside #36 was rejected). For the time being I'd give it the safe home of being set just before Volume 2, but if you want to be particular put it between either of the issues mentioned before and see how you feel when reading it with those issues. Ultimately, the beauty of Tales is that you can pick and choose where a lot of these stories happen. So long as you place it before Don and Splinter get back from Northampton it shouldn't really matter so long as it reads well to you guys.

[DrSpengler]

'ppreciate it.

So I'll just keep it where its at until further notice. Thanks!

[TristanHuwJones]

No worries mate, sorry it's still a little vague!

[DrSpengler]

Okay, added "Spinal Tapped", the story from the 2007 Tales Vol. 1 TPB printing to the list. There's this bit of discontinuity I added to the notes section, though:

*The additional story "Spinal Tapped" included in the 2007 printing of the Tales Vol. 1 TPB presents a bit of discontinuity with the events from "Masks" parts 1 and 2. "Masks" indicates that Savanti was buried alive after the events of "Return of Savanti Romero" and not exhumed until many centuries later. In this story it is shown that he survived his defeat. At the end of the story he is teleported to an unknown destination by Renet, so it's possible she just buried him. Despite that, he makes no references to the events of this story in "Masks".

[DrSpengler]

I removed "Road Hogs" from the continuity list since it just didn't seem to fit in.

Replaced it with the frontispieces from the recent Tales Vol. 1 TPB.

[DrSpengler]

Okay, I updated the list with "Swan Song" and "Fathers and Daughters" from Tales Vol. 2 #41.

"Fathers and Daughters" fits nicely as an epilogue to Casey's arc from "City at War". Aside from Shadow's age fitting it in there, you'll notice that Don is absent when all the Turtles are shown at the end (as he was still out in the country with Splinter between Vol. 1 and Vol. 2).

As for "Swan Song", I wasn't so sure where to put it. It takes place in 2099, so it definately happens after "Silent Knight" (2060). However, both "Old Times" and the Tales TPB frontispieces are devoid of dates. They also heavily imply that Don is the last surviving Turtle. So going on that, I chose to put "Swan Song" before both of those.

[Scandia]

What exactly are those frontispieces? What do they show?

[DrSpengler]

What exactly are those frontispieces? What do they show?

Geriatric Leo, Raph, Mike and Don are shown at a variety of locations (including Casey's grave) as Don introduces each Tale to us. At the end, it all turns out to be a holographic simulation of Don's called "reunion" (meaning none of the other Turtles were actually there). A sorrowful Don then goes to bed as Renet watches him, tearing up in the process. She then travels back to "the good ole days" and has fun with all 4 Turtles (plus April and Casey).

Neither "Old Times" nor the frontispieces explicitly state that Don is the last Turtle left, but it seems to be heavily implied at any rate.

[turkishproverb]

HOw exactly can SOul's winter work in TMNT continuity?

[PAAATE]

HOw exactly can SOul's winter work in TMNT continuity?

It can't..?

The Soul's-stories is their own continuity, at least to me.

[DrSpengler]

Yeah, which is why I didn't include it in the timeline. So I'm not sure why he asked.

[turkishproverb]

Yeah, which is why I didn't include it in the timeline. So I'm not sure why he asked.

Sorry. I misread the timeline.

[DrSpengler]

Okay, just updated with the future Raph story from The Puma Blues #20, "Choices".

I can't believe none of you ever told me this story existed! I didn't even learn about until someone (Roseangelo? Raph's Girl? Andrew?) mentioned in in passing in another thread. I went rushing to my nearest shop and frantically searched through the $1 bin for a copy. I lucked out and found it.

Anyhow, I'm not sure where to precisely place it. I put it after "Silent Knight" mostly because Raph looked a bit older in "Choices", but that could always just be due to artistic style.

[DrSpengler]

Added Tales Vol. 2 #43, "The Proposal".

The note written by Dan said that the story took place shortly after TMNT Vol. 2. I placed it at the tail end of that era. I can't recall if any of the earliest "TMNT Vol. 3" stories declared whether Casey and April were married or not. If you have a better memory than me about that, lemme know and I'll shift the story around.

[DrSpengler]

Updated with Tales Vol. 2 #44, "The Amulet" and "The Lessons".

I placed both in the "Toddler Turtles" era. "The Lessons" was more obvious, but "The Amulet" might require some explanation as to why I put it as the earliest story told.

It features a very young Karai, still going through the initiation process of the Foot Clan. When Karai first appeared during the "City at War" arc she was NOT a young woman. She had not only risen up the ranks to the point where she ran the Japanese branch of the Foot, but she had also had a daughter who had grown into adulthood by then.

She is waaayyyyyy older than the turtles, likely having already been in her 20s by the time they were born.

Hence, I put this story of her youth at the very beginning of the timeline.

[DrSpengler]

Updated to include Tales vol. 2 #46.

I put it between Vol. 1 #56 and 57. At least, I think that's where it should go, what with the TMNT still patroling from their water tower base and April having just come back to New York.

Lemme know if it goes some place better.

[Demon-Alukard]

Yeah, I think so too. Tales of TMNT #46 can have place ONLY around Issue 56. Then Karai already watched TMNT' water tower, but don't chase them if Turtles go anywere. Though, the hard fact is that April already back from California..

But, one to the million dollar question: Why in interview Berger, who write this story, said it take place after TMNT #51? He don't read CAW from far ninetieth?? :ohwell:

[PAAATE]

Yeah, I think so too. Tales of TMNT #46 can have place ONLY around Issue 56. Then Karai already watched TMNT' water tower, but don't chase them if Turtles go anywere. Though, the hard fact is that April already back from California..

But, one to the million dollar question: Why in interview Berger, who write this story, said it take place after TMNT #51? He don't read CAW from far ninetieth?? :ohwell:

Probably just a mistake.. Either that or a stroke :dead:

[Demon-Alukard]

Probably just a mistake.. Either that or a stroke :dead:

Dan's mistake only in April's place. If she was in LA, all would be present and correct.

[Andrew NDB]

Yeah, I think so too. Tales of TMNT #46 can have place ONLY around Issue 56.
But, one to the million dollar question: Why in interview Berger, who write this story, said it take place after TMNT #51? He don't read CAW from far ninetieth?? :ohwell:

(I'll correct for your grammar and intent)

"Tales of the TMNT #46 can have ONLY taken place around TMNT #56."

"Why did Berger, who wrote this story, say in an interview that it takes place after TMNT #51?"

These two statements aren't at odds. TMNT #56 is after TMNT #51, isn't it?

[Demon-Alukard]

Andrew NDB, here the quote from Interview:

NRAMA: Did it take place after the decapitation of the Shredder by Leonardo but before Karai, the of the Foot Clan in Japan came to New York to restore order?
DB: Yes - it took place right around the time of TMNT Vol. 1 #51.

Sorry for my english :D

[odupianist]

Here's something I mentioned in the thread about Issue 46...

"I hate to do this, but Dan's gotta be wrong. I just went thru the synopsi of the CAW arc on ninjaturtles.com (mainly cause I don't have my issues at work). April's nowhere close to being home in NYC by #51. Heck, according to the synopsis, April isn't back in NYC until #58. So DrSpengler, I'd even go as far as to say that Tales #46 goes between #58 and 59 or even later. Thoughts?"

[Demon-Alukard]

No, Odupianist, the events from Tales #46 could not take place after issue 58. The Water Tower (where TMNT was hiding) was destroyed as the result of Karai's attack (#56). So, this issue is the last point when this story could take place.

But maybe, events in the original CAW arc occur not simultaneously. For example, April could return to NY before Karai's attack. But these are only suggestions and my efforts to correct Dan's continuity error... :cry:

[DrSpengler]

Okay, I might need some help placing the stories in Tales #48.

The not at the beginning of "The Decider" claims it takes place during TMNT Vol. 2. However, that series is so tight-knit that there isn't an opening for all four Turtles, Casey and Splinter to be chilling together at Casey's farm until right after #13. So I stuck it between there and "The Proposal".

"One's Shadow" was a little tougher to place. Mahbe Tristan can drop by and give us a clue.

I put it during the "Mirage Volume 3" era, alongside "The Mother of All Anger" just because they were both short vignettes on Raph. "The Mother of All Anger" takes place after the Foot Mystics had begun their assault on the TMNT, so it doesn't clash too harshly.

But again, Tristan wrote it, so he might have a better idea.

[TristanHuwJones]

Pretty much all my stories take place around the same time frame, with #50 being the exception. The Foot Mystic and the Shadowthing will hopefully come into play in something I'll be pitching in my next round of stories (if and when that comes around). So there won't be any resolution until 2010 unfortunately (unless I can squeeze in another few shorts somewhere down the road). That said, mine takes place after volume 2, and after #36, Jake's I'm not clear on though. I did what you did though, and put it near the engagement issue :)

[DrSpengler]

Pretty much all my stories take place around the same time frame, with #50 being the exception. The Foot Mystic and the Shadowthing will hopefully come into play in something I'll be pitching in my next round of stories (if and when that comes around). So there won't be any resolution until 2010 unfortunately (unless I can squeeze in another few shorts somewhere down the road). That said, mine takes place after volume 2, and after #36, Jake's I'm not clear on though. I did what you did though, and put it near the engagement issue :)

Cool, man.

So is there any objection to where I put "One's Shadow" in my timeline (kinda in the middle of "Volume 3")? It's after TMNT Vol. 2 and Tales Vol. 2 #36.

[DrSpengler]

Added Tales Vol. 2 #49.

I placed it immediately after TMNT Vol. 2 #13. I think that's about right.

Also moved "Eye of Aga-Moo-Tou" to just after "Bullwrinkle in Time", as according to Dan, all the COWboys crossovers are part of a "trilogy".

[funatic]

I was (and still am) in the process of compiling my own TMNT continuity when I stumbled across your list. First off, let me say congrats (I'm glad to see there are people out there as obsessive as myself)! The core of our lists are very similar, but I have a few notable discrepancies that I thought I'd share, take them or leave them.

1) You've listed Tales v1's "All Hallow's Thieves" before Mikey's 1-Shot "The Christmas Aliens." In the opening pages of "Thieves" I believe Mikey mistakes the burglars' noises for Klunk, the cat he found on Christmas. I have the Christmas story as my first in the 'Living w/April' period, and "Thieves" closer to the end, taking place on the Halloween before the Christmas of Leo's 1-Shot.

2) The "Raphael: Bad Moon Rising" 4-parter, according to a passing comment by Lulu in the first issue, apparently takes place nearly a year after the events of Tales v2 #7 "Darkness Weaves." You have these adjacent - which is certainly most appropriate thematically, but it's hard to believe that no other Tales would have occurred within that year gap. I have a few more time-gap gripes which I won't bother you with (unless you want to hear them), but this was the most glaring one that I thought I should mention.

3) Also on the Shadow note - Tales v2 #12 "Paris Nocturne" explicitly takes place in April 2002, as she narrates on the opening panel, while on her plane ride to Paris. Which means it should probably follow closely after Tales v2 #18 "The Blue Hole," which takes place in March 2002, both in the Utrom Alliance gap of 6 months.

4) This one's pretty nit-picky - but Tales v2 #26 "Value of Gold" deals with subject matter that is VERY Recent, and not mid, or even late 90s relevant - MMRPG gold-mining. Don also references a NY Times article about the topic, which (this may make me seem a little too OCD about continuity, but ah heck) after googling, I found does exist and was published in 2005. Hence I like placing this ish in the not too distant FUTURE (that is assuming that TMNT Vol 4 starts in 2001/02, a theory supported by dated issues such as Tales v2 #s 12 & 18, mentioned before). Though that's just getting anal about things, and it does make the casey-no-longer-vigilante debacle even more fraudulent, but hey, what's a great series of comics without a few continuity errors?

Anyway, there are my suggestions (for now), and if I catch any more I'll be sure to post. And congrats once again for an awesome list - I know from experience how draining this timeline can be!

[TristanHuwJones]

This is why I think using specific dates in comics is a bad idea...

Still I think your ideas are worth putting forward to discuss, I mean, that's what the thread is for after all...

[DrSpengler]

I was (and still am) in the process of compiling my own TMNT continuity when I stumbled across your list. First off, let me say congrats (I'm glad to see there are people out there as obsessive as myself)! The core of our lists are very similar, but I have a few notable discrepancies that I thought I'd share, take them or leave them.

Awesome!

There hasn't been any major discussion on the timeline for a while and I'm glad to see someone with as much an eye for detail as myself go over it.

I'm down with all your suggestions and made adjustments to the timeline accordingly.

To apporach them individually, though:

1) You've listed Tales v1's "All Hallow's Thieves" before Mikey's 1-Shot "The Christmas Aliens." In the opening pages of "Thieves" I believe Mikey mistakes the burglars' noises for Klunk, the cat he found on Christmas. I have the Christmas story as my first in the 'Living w/April' period, and "Thieves" closer to the end, taking place on the Halloween before the Christmas of Leo's 1-Shot.

I moved "All Hallow's Thieves to just before "What Goes Around Comes Around". I know there's two months in-between the stories for other stuff to happen, but with how loose each episode is, you can pretty much stick anything you want in there. I also moved "Ghoul's Night Out", "Don't Judge a Book", "The Howl" and "The Apparition" since they all have a Halloween/Horror theme going on and read well together. Obviously, due to their one-shot nature, many of them could take place almost anywhere in the timeline, but I like to group similar stories together.

2) The "Raphael: Bad Moon Rising" 4-parter, according to a passing comment by Lulu in the first issue, apparently takes place nearly a year after the events of Tales v2 #7 "Darkness Weaves." You have these adjacent - which is certainly most appropriate thematically, but it's hard to believe that no other Tales would have occurred within that year gap.

I bumped that one ahead to the end of the Mirage Volume 3 era, just after "Hell's Blacktop". That only leaves about 2 stories inbetween "Darkness Weaves" and "Bad Moon Rising", but there are always future issues of Tales to fill in the gap, I suppose.

3) Also on the Shadow note - Tales v2 #12 "Paris Nocturne" explicitly takes place in April 2002, as she narrates on the opening panel, while on her plane ride to Paris. Which means it should probably follow closely after Tales v2 #18 "The Blue Hole," which takes place in March 2002, both in the Utrom Alliance gap of 6 months.

Good eye. I put it where it belongs. I kinda hate stuffing stories into that gap in the middile of Vol. 4 #5, since it seems like there's just so much stuff already being crammed in there, but dates are dates and you're totally right.

4) This one's pretty nit-picky - but Tales v2 #26 "Value of Gold" deals with subject matter that is VERY Recent, and not mid, or even late 90s relevant - MMRPG gold-mining. Don also references a NY Times article about the topic, which (this may make me seem a little too OCD about continuity, but ah heck) after googling, I found does exist and was published in 2005. Hence I like placing this ish in the not too distant FUTURE (that is assuming that TMNT Vol 4 starts in 2001/02, a theory supported by dated issues such as Tales v2 #s 12 & 18, mentioned before). Though that's just getting anal about things, and it does make the casey-no-longer-vigilante debacle even more fraudulent, but hey, what's a great series of comics without a few continuity errors?

I had a really hard time trying to figure that one out and, admitedly, just stuck it in the Mirage Volume 3 era because I didn't know what else to do with it. You're right that it should probably go in the Future era, albeit it very close to the present. I'm just wary about sticking stuff there since god knows how Volume 4 is gonna end.

I have a few more time-gap gripes which I won't bother you with (unless you want to hear them), but this was the most glaring one that I thought I should mention.

Please, by all means: fire away! I want this to be as full and accurate as possible, with even teh smallest dicrepencies adressed.

A lot of the stories I placed together out of convenience (for instance there are a large number of Casey-centric one-shot stories with no obvious means of deducing their time period, thus I grouped them all together to create a nice little Casey Jones package; likewise, I stuck all the Usagi crossovers together), but if there are more appropriate places they can go, then I'd like to figure them out.

Hopefully, our timelines can end up mirroring one-another's.

[funatic]

Glad to see my input could help craft your mega timeline!

Here are the other notable time-gaps I've found in the series - all Tales v2 related:

#8 "Virus" - Leatherhead has completely rebuilt his transmat, and claims that (due to the tampering with his DNA by the rogue zealot utroms) weeks or maybe months have passed without his knowing. Hence it's been awhile since TMNT v1 #45... so I like to place "Virus" near the start of the 'Volume 3' era, directly followed by #23 (as you have it). Once again, your layout works better thematically though (as is with most of the cases I'll illustrate), so it's all a judgment call.

#34 "Splinter Cell" - following the other plot thread of "Virus" with the female ninja collecting bandannas - on pg 14 Leonardo mentions that she's been tailing the turtles for the past 6 months - so there's another large gap, but when placed in the 'Volume 3' sector its easy to fill a few issues in between it and #23.

#27 "White Horses" - On pg 4 April narrates that she's drove across the country for the past "several months," and is planning on staying in Alaska for at least one month more. This makes me think that this issue would take place later than Volume 4 #29 (even though the segway from April to a depressed Casey in the opening pages of #29 is superb).

Other random thoughts:

I agree that its frustrating to plug so many stories into that 6 month gap. It's especially frustrating when some of them don't even make sense in conjunction, like having #18 "The Blue Hole" set in March and #39 "What Wolves Wear" set in October (at least a 7 month gap???). This is where Tristan's words ring true that having exact dates in a comic can prove disastrous (particularly to detail-oriented fans).

In regards to your Casey/Usagi sections: My list is not nearly as comprehensive as yours - I'm only including full issues, no short stories, and only what I know to be canon (all of TMNT v2 & v4, and Tales v1 & v2, and then just the 'in-house' works of TMNT v1) so I haven't read some of the stories you've listed. The only one in my timeline is Tales v2 #37, which I placed wayyy back, directly before Raph's one-shot, as I thought it was a good pre-curser/intro to a seemingly wilder Casey, who still likes to trash street punks (I believe he's also beating some purse-snatchers at the end of 37, which is what he's doing when Raph finds him in his 1-shot).

I completely missed the boat on the Discussion over #46 "Temps" but my 2-cents is that it should be placed after CAW #51, as that's where it fits best thematically with the TURTLES timeline. While April isn't back until issue 58 or so I have to echo Alukard's thoughts from long ago that the plotlines must not occur simultaneously.

No, Odupianist, the events from Tales #46 could not take place after issue 58. The Water Tower (where TMNT was hiding) was destroyed as the result of Karai's attack (#56). So, this issue is the last point when this story could take place.

But maybe, events in the original CAW arc occur not simultaneously. For example, April could return to NY before Karai's attack. But these are only suggestions and my efforts to correct Dan's continuity error... :cry:

Also, as Alukard points out, Karai destroys the water-tower in #56, so "Temps" cannot take place after that issue.

My 'two-cents' has turned into about $20 so I think I'll put a cap on it for now... hope some of this helps.

[TristanHuwJones]

Based on everything in this timeline, what would people say the timeline is between the death of Oroku Saki (#1) to Return to New York, and then from Return to New York to the end of City at War? Between the end of City at War and Tales #36, I semi-established about a 9 month gap followed by roughly another couple of months between #36 and the end of Vol.2.

I'm currently writing a story that takes place just after Vol.2 ends (which coincides with #56 and #59) and want to get some opinions on times. You know I don't deal in specific dates, so I won't be pinning anything down. I just wanted to get some accurate chronology to the script. Unfortunately I'm not home for a little while and can't get to my comics!

Hope to hear from people soon!

[funatic]

what would people say the timeline is between the death of Oroku Saki (#1) to Return to New York

I'd say somewhere between 2 & 3 years has passed. I base this off the fact that two Christmas issues lie between - the Mikey & Leo 1-shots. And then Return to New York explicitly takes place a year after the events of Leo's 1-shot. I'd estimate just a little over 2 years.

and then from Return to New York to the end of City at War?

This is up to some debate as there are no real time landmarks presented in the issues in between RtNY & the start of CaW. I'd say at least the following summer (since the winter of RtNY) has passed, to allow time for issues like Sons of the Silent Age, Dreams of Stone, & Masks to take place. This would coincide nicely with CaW - which seems to seasonally follow the release dates of its issues (fall in the first few, winter in the middle, back to spring in the last couple). The seasons also parallel the themes of the arc. All together this would make up a time period of around a year and a half between RtNY & the end of CaW. Conceivably, this could be boosted to 2 and a half years, giving a larger gap for SotSA, etc. but that would mean they wouldn't even be teenagers during vol 2!

Hope this helps!

[KillsTheWeak]

I was wondering about some others not included in your timeline.

There's a few in Turtle Soup you missed.

Gizmo - Shopping Spree
Showdown
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
You're in the Army Now

Also some one shots

Creed - TMNT
The Haunted Pizza
Times Pipeline


Some Flaming Carrot Comics

TMNT - Flaming Carrot 1-4
Flaming Carrot 25-27

And some v1 issues

16,18,22,23,31-41


Any info on where to place those, or if they are not part of the continuity, would be appreciated.

[DrSpengler]

I was wondering about some others not included in your timeline.

There's a few in Turtle Soup you missed.

Gizmo - Shopping Spree
Showdown
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
You're in the Army Now

Also some one shots

Creed - TMNT
The Haunted Pizza
Times Pipeline


Some Flaming Carrot Comics

TMNT - Flaming Carrot 1-4
Flaming Carrot 25-27

And some v1 issues

16,18,22,23,31-41


Any info on where to place those, or if they are not part of the continuity, would be appreciated.

Most of those are explicitely out of continuity with the regular Mirage timeline, be it overt references, contradictions or just an overall stylistic choice that doesn't even remotely fit in with the other issues.

While the Gizmo series take place within the same "universe" as the Mirage TMNT series, those shorts don't feature any TMNT characters and thus don't need to be placed in the timeline (the only Gizmo story thus far to feature any TMNT characters is the Gizmo and the Fugitoid miniseries, thus why it is placed in the timeline).

[KillsTheWeak]

Ah ok, i understand about the Fugitoid and some of the v1, they are a bit wacky, and/or imaginary tales. Was wondering if you had any specifics about the rest and why they are not included. Like the notes you posted.

[CyberCubed]

Are you sure #18 "The Shell of the Dragon" doesn't take place, given Kevin Eastman worked on it? I was always under the impression that aside from Mark Martin's #16, that everything from #12-18 was in-continuity.

I feel the same for #32 and #33. What makes those not able to fit into continuity?

[DrSpengler]

I'll have to reread #18 and #33 to recall why I made that judgment (or if I was mistaken).

As for #32, it features April as a TV newreporter ala the cartoon and movies, a vocation she never had in the Mirage comics.

[TristanHuwJones]

Okay, so after reading, SERIOUS reading, I've got a definitive answer as to where #36 fits in. Late,late November of the year following City at War, or early to mid December. It'd also have to be AFTER Vol.2. (Thank Christ I made the date references "nearly a year"). Vol.2 would take roughly six weeks around March (the core of it anyway). It'd also mean that all of Dan's Leatherhead related stories (Vol.1 #45, TotTMNT2.8 and 23) would also have to take place after Vol.2 and after my own stories. Depending on how you read it, or what you decide to put into Vol.2 #1, the ONLY story that could fit between City at War and Vol.2 is the Shredder Shark finale, but there'd have to be some sort of loose explanation for Splinter being back in NYC. The reason being that Donny's leg is still broken in #1, so unless it got damaged again somehow (Tales writers take note!), you can't have any stories involving a healthy Don between City at War and Vol.2. You could possibly fit Tales Vol.2 #22 in between #1 and 2 of Vol.2 though, but again it could fit anywhere.

I'm also being something of a futurist here, but Ross and I were tossing ideas around for a possible follow up, but it'd tie into what I've been doing with Hun and Lin, so we'll have to wait and see.

[Andrew NDB]

As for #32, it features April as a TV newreporter ala the cartoon and movies, a vocation she never had in the Mirage comics.

I've always been OK regarding that as a onetime job that didn't work out quite right.

[MurderOfCrows]

I was looking over some stuff, going through some canon in research -- and realized there is no way these two stories can possibly be in 'Post Return / Pre CAW'

These two stories take place in New York, in, from the looks of it, the old lair. April and Casey aren't mentioned (are they?) and they seem to be very early in the turtle's career.

I think this set of stories needs to be much earlier in continuity, even if they came much later.

(There are other issues I have with this, as Lucindra is a super Mary Sue, but...)

Turtle Soup Vol. 2 #1 – Lucindra
Vol. 1 #44 – The Violent Underground

[DrSpengler]

BIG UPDATE!!!

With Tristan's help, the timeline has been extensively reworked to be more accurate than ever before.

Check it out!

[ToTheNines]

Wow.... Wow! Great job :)

I got two questions though, what evidence is there making ya'll say the Christmas issue is post RTNY and same question for the Usagi story happening before Silent Partner?

[TristanHuwJones]

Wow.... Wow! Great job :)

I got two questions though, what evidence is there making ya'll say the Christmas issue is post RTNY and same question for the Usagi story happening before Silent Partner?

There isn't, but at the same time, there isn't anything going against it either. This just made the most sense in my mind when you look at the timing of the X-mas stories before and after, or stories in that time period. The Usagi one was there because... it just... fits! You could put it anywhere really, but if you have the first Usagi encounter EARLY it leaves things open for the sorts of transdimensional adventures they get involved in later, and if the Usagi/TMNT x-over Stan wants to do ever happens, at least then (as I said) it's set up already.

[Ninjinister]

Looks like I've got some levels to switch up....

[DrSpengler]

Wow.... Wow! Great job :)

I got two questions though, what evidence is there making ya'll say the Christmas issue is post RTNY and same question for the Usagi story happening before Silent Partner?

In regards to Usagi, in "Turtle Soup and Rabbit Stew", the Turtles are shown to be living in April's apartment. So having it take place before "Silent Partner" makes sense to me. The other Usagi crossovers don't really have an anchor as to where they fit in the timeline, at least from the TMNT's perspective, so it was just more convenient to group them all together.

[ToTheNines]

Works for me lol

[DrSpengler]

Moved Tales (Vol. 2) #60 from the Vol. 2 era to the Vol. 4 era, as that's where it apparently takes place according to the prologue written by Dan at the beginning of the issue (shortly after #23, he says).

[DrSpengler]

Yeesh.

All this time, I've been claiming the "Digital Webbing Presents the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" story came from a comic called Fist of Justice #24.

I've been wrong.

It actually appeared in a comic titled (surprise) Digital Webbing Presents #24. "Fist of Justice" was just in bigger letters on the cover, so it threw me off (had to check the indicia to be sure).

Anyhow, it's fixed now.

[Ninjinister]

Yeesh.

All this time, I've been claiming the "Digital Webbing Presents the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" story came from a comic called Fist of Justice #24.

I've been wrong.

It actually appeared in a comic titled (surprise) Digital Webbing Presents #24. "Fist of Justice" was just in bigger letters on the cover, so it threw me off (had to check the indicia to be sure).

Anyhow, it's fixed now.

What exactly happens in this story?

[DrSpengler]

What exactly happens in this story?

Raph is out on the rooftops of New York, wearing a backpack containing something of important and worried about running out of time.

Suddenly he's attacked by Foot Ninja, who chase him across the city. He defeats them with ease, mocks them, then returns to the sewer lair.

Turns out he had gone to get Chinese take-out for the other Turtles and wanted to get it back before it got cold.


We stuck it post Return to New York because it seemed to fit best there. The Foot attacking the Turtles out of vengeance for the Shredder's death, but being so disorganized that they'd been reduced to an easily defeatable joke.

The Turtles living in their sewer lair would make it take place before "Leatherhead", where they give their sewer layer to the titular alligator.

EDIT:

Ah Hell, since its so short I decided to just review it:

http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2009/08/digital-webbing-presents-24.html

[ToTheNines]

I just noticed that you have Mike #1 in two different places with different names, was there two stories in that issue?

[DrSpengler]

I just noticed that you have Mike #1 in two different places with different names, was there two stories in that issue?

In the second printing, yeah. The second printing came with a back-up that was a parody of "A Christmas Carol", with Raph looking into Christmas' past, present and future. The future one, by the way, marked the first appearance of future Raph with his eye-patch.

[darthsmozers]

In the second printing, yeah. The second printing came with a back-up that was a parody of "A Christmas Carol", with Raph looking into Christmas' past, present and future. The future one, by the way, marked the first appearance of future Raph with his eye-patch.

Did this influence the future raph's eyepatch look from TMNTA? (Not to ditract from the Mirage Canon discussion...)

[DrSpengler]

Did this influence the future raph's eyepatch look from TMNTA? (Not to ditract from the Mirage Canon discussion...)

It would seem so. The Michaelangelo #1 second printing came out in December, 1990. TMNT Adventures #42, the first appearance of their Future Raph, was published in March, 1993.

[Billbeaux]

Mirage-wise, have they ever revealed how Raph eventually loses his eye?

[DrSpengler]

Mirage-wise, have they ever revealed how Raph eventually loses his eye?

Nope. But there's a bunch of mysteries revolving around the Mirage future Turtles that have yet to be resolved.

[PAAATE]

Nope. But there's a bunch of mysteries revolving around the Mirage future Turtles that have yet to be resolved.

Speaking of which.. Should they be resolved?

Sometimes an unresolved mystery is far more exciting than whatever answer the author comes up with...

[ToTheNines]

Speaking of which.. Should they be resolved?

Sometimes an unresolved mystery is far more exciting than whatever answer the author comes up with...

Example: Rat King.

[oldmanwinters]

I always assumed Tales Vol. 2 #36 – "To Serve and Protect" came immediately after City at War and necessarily before Volume 2 started since Donatello was away from the other three turtles who star in this issue. Where are the notes for its placement after Volume 2?

[TristanHuwJones]

Nah, see, Miller says that the City at War incident happened nearly a year before #36 happened, and at the start of Vol.2, Don still has his broken leg, which would indicate that Vol.2 doesn't start that long after City at War.

[oldmanwinters]

Nah, see, Miller says that the City at War incident happened nearly a year before #36 happened, and at the start of Vol.2, Don still has his broken leg, which would indicate that Vol.2 doesn't start that long after City at War.

Ah, must have missed that detail. Thanks, Tristan!

[ToTheNines]

Challenges: Origin seems to indicate that Tales volume 1 # 7 takes place before Leonardo #1.

[DrSpengler]

Been making a number of minor adjustments lately, thought I'd update you all who might not've noticed (I'm sure all of you don't check this list as often as *I* do).


At Felix's behest, I bumped "Paris Nocturne" back to the Vol. 4 six month gap as it only takes place a month after one of those issues. Put a "possible post Vol. 4" note on it because it could easily take place after Vol. 4, too.

Moved "Change of Power" to just before "City at War" at Ross May's behest, as according to him, that's where he intended the story to take place.

Finally, moved the "Gizmo and the Fugitoid" miniseries to "The Future". Looking over it, the Utroms mention that the Fugitoid had already been to their planet and was established there before getting lost for some time and recovered by Gizmo and Fuzzy. The end also shows Earth in a "futuristic" setting where humans and aliens cohabit the planet, tying in with what we know about Earth post Vol. 4.


That is all

[ToTheNines]

I don't think "fifteen years later" is canon, they have multi-colored head bands.

[DrSpengler]

I don't think "fifteen years later" is canon, they have multi-colored head bands.

One could argue it as a coloring error. There are certainly worse errors in confirmed canon stories, like Donatello's portrayal in "Soul Survivor".

But meh, other's mileage may vary.

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, but it is in Turtle Soup.

And what does Donny act like in that one? I haven't read it, but he also acts out of character in "Sins of the Past".

[DrSpengler]

Yeah, but it is in Turtle Soup.

And what does Donny act like in that one? I haven't read it, but he also acts out of character in "Sins of the Past".

Yeah, that's the one I meant, "Sins of the Past". Where Don basically acts like Raph through the whole thing.

[ToTheNines]

The odd thing is, Murphy wrote that one... and I normally love his version of Don.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't think "fifteen years later" is canon, they have multi-colored head bands.

I think it is, and I agree it was a coloring mistake.

[DrSpengler]

For what it's worth, the bandana coloring is the only thing inconsistent with "15 Years Later".

They even get the kid's name right, "Chet", which was revealed to be his name in TMNT Vol. 1 #7.

[CyberCubed]

It's canon, just ignore the color bandana inconsistency. Small details like that can be overlooked.

[Honeycutt]

"D'ants Fever" wasn't actually retitled for the Shell Shock TPB. The altered "Rick's Dive" sign is very prominently placed at the top of page one, leading most people to believe it's the title. (If I remember correctly, this led to confusion on the part of whomever laid out the table of contents, and the story is listed as "Rick's Dive" there.) However, if you look at the bottom of that first page, "D'ants Fever" is still the given title among the story's credits.

This of course changes nothing continuity-wise as far as your list is concerned, just a fun fact.

[discordiatookie]

Wow, don't think i've ever commented on this thread, even though I do use it quite often. Sorry. So here goes:

Cheers Doc, for all the hard work this bad boy has taken, its a proper turbo thread that would be sorely missed if not here. And it saves me the trouble of having to work out what comes after what, etc, whenever I wanna read some stories in proper order.

[norinrad2]

Now if we could only get alot of these story's in collected formats (eg; hc or tpb) like the 'turtle soup' anthology, 'city @war' event, image comic's run, etc. :tthumbsu:

[DrSpengler]

"D'ants Fever" wasn't actually retitled for the Shell Shock TPB. The altered "Rick's Dive" sign is very prominently placed at the top of page one, leading most people to believe it's the title. (If I remember correctly, this led to confusion on the part of whomever laid out the table of contents, and the story is listed as "Rick's Dive" there.) However, if you look at the bottom of that first page, "D'ants Fever" is still the given title among the story's credits.

This of course changes nothing continuity-wise as far as your list is concerned, just a fun fact.

Yeah, I think you're right. Looking over the Shell Shock table of contents...it's a very, very poor table of contents. Full of spelling errors and what-not, plus the page numbers are worthless since the pages of the book aren't numbered.

Looking at my timeline, I used the table of contents titles, spelling errors and all.

I'll have to go through the list and fix em.

[Honeycutt]

Wow, you're right. My favorite has to be "Fhoul's Night Out." Freudian slip!

What I failed to say in my post was how impressed I was with this topic when I first found it a couple of months ago. It inspired me to organize my own continuity list for Vol1/TalesV1, complete with annotations and references. A project like this has been sorely needed for many, many years. Thanks for taking on a challenge so vast!

[DrSpengler]

Well, I appreciate all the positive feedback.

I plan to incorporate it into my site, TMNT Entity, with some better organization and annotations and color-coding and symbols and a key and all that good stuff.

Gonna wait until the last of the Tales issues are out, though. It'll make updating it easier if I have all the materials laid out before me at once.

[Honeycutt]

Wow! I look forward to that. I really dig what you're doing with the TMNT Entity site.

Now for an actual continuity suggestion:

I re-read Tales V1 #7 last night ("The Return of Savanti"), and I noticed that the group was still living in the city with April. They're bundled up for winter when they attend the museum, but then they return to the apartment, where Renet appears to the group. This should put the story right before Leonardo #1.

[Andrew NDB]

Well, I appreciate all the positive feedback.

I plan to incorporate it into my site, TMNT Entity, with some better organization and annotations and color-coding and symbols and a key and all that good stuff.

Gonna wait until the last of the Tales issues are out, though. It'll make updating it easier if I have all the materials laid out before me at once.

You know, a true TMNT chronology book might still be possible. Printed, even. There couldn't be a better author than you.

[DrSpengler]

You know, a true TMNT chronology book might still be possible. Printed, even. There couldn't be a better author than you.

I would give a kidney to write it. Something like those "Saga" comics that Marvel's been putting out ("Wolverine: Saga" or "New Mutants: Saga") would be a kick to write.

I was honored when Tristan asked me to help with timeline for the Mirage Universe Sourcebook and had a lot of fun communicating back and forth with him on it. I was even going to get a special thanks credit...until the thing got scrapped by the Viacom deal. :(

But ah well. Tristan put even more work into that book than I did and he's not cryin' about it, so I'll get over it.

[ToTheNines]

I re-read Tales V1 #7 last night ("The Return of Savanti"), and I noticed that the group was still living in the city with April. They're bundled up for winter when they attend the museum, but then they return to the apartment, where Renet appears to the group. This should put the story right before Leonardo #1.

Also:

Challenges: Origin seems to indicate that Tales volume 1 # 7 takes place before Leonardo #1.

It absoloutely has to actually, since they're in the city with April and it takes place before "Challenges: Origin".... Unless you want to move that past Tales 1-7.

[DrSpengler]

I believe you guys are right. I think I originally had it there, but it somehow got shuffled downstream when Tristan and I reworked the chronology.

I bumped it backward to before Michealangelo #1.

[Honeycutt]

Perfect!

May I ask why you have "The Christmas Aliens" taking place directly before Leo's attack, though? In Leonardo #1, Donatello states while trimming the tree with April: "This is only our second real Christmas." That line refers to Michaelangelo #1, which Mirage has always placed directly after TMNT #7 in trade collections. (That placement is most certainly based on continuity, as it was published between #5 and #6.)

Second source: in "All Hallow's Thieves," April's store alarm gets tripped and the turtles suspect Klunk set it off. This couldn't have happened if Mike didn't find Klunk until two months later. This, along with the "second real Christmas" statement, establishes the following continuity:

1st year Christmas: Michaelangelo #1 "The Christmas Aliens"
The following Halloween: Tales #3 "All Hallow's Thieves"
2nd year Christmas: Leonardo #1 "What Goes Around... Comes Around"

[ToTheNines]

May I ask why you have "The Christmas Aliens" taking place directly before Leo's attack, though? In Leonardo #1, Donatello states while trimming the tree with April: "This is only our second real Christmas." That line refers to Michaelangelo #1, which Mirage has always placed directly after TMNT #7 in trade collections. (That placement is most certainly based on continuity, as it was published between #5 and #6.)

Maybe Mike #1 takes place a couple of days before Christmas (I'm gonna read it today to clarify).

But that Don line is made inaccurate be Raph's Christmas Carol, the ghost of Christmas past shows them having Christmas in the lair before April.

[Honeycutt]

I'm sure Mike #1 takes place during the Christmas season, but not ON Christmas. It simply represents their first Christmas together with April, as a "family" (this is what I assume Don's line meant in Leonardo #1).

Lawson's back-up Xmas story just shows the guys in the lair before they met her, pre-Mouser attack. Sure, it establishes that they celebrated Christmases in the lair, but I don't think it does anything to contradict Don's statement being about the second Christmas they've all shared together. Besides, there's still the Klunk anachronism pointing to the 1-year time span I laid out above.

[Honeycutt]

Also: I noticed that you have "Credo" placed in the Volume 2 era, but it takes place just after they've moved into the farmhouse in Vol. 1 #11. Recall that in April's February 17, 1987 journal entry, she mentions that Donatello has found a typewriter in the attic and is busy writing something, though she doesn't know what. At the end of "Credo," he types the date: February 18, 1987.

[DrSpengler]

Alright, I finally got the time to double check all the stuff between Mikey #1 and Tales #3 and "Credo".

You're right, so I swapped some stuff around at your recommendation. Bumped Mikey #1 back to just after the end of the Utrom/Triceraton arc and moved Tales #3 and all the horror/Halloween-themed stories forward to shrotly before Leo #1 and the Christmasy stuff.

I suppose there's enough shorts in-between Mikey #1 and Tales #3 to fill a year, albeit a fairly uneventful year by Turtle standards.

As for "Credo", can't argue with the dates. Just had to flip through my copy because I recalled there being a lot of cameos and I wanted to be sure that nobody was in that story before their first appearance.

They weren't, so I moved it to just after TMNT #11.


Thanks for the input!

[Honeycutt]

No problem! When I first found this thread, I spent a whole weekend poring over it in sheer awe. As geeky as it sounds, I'm kind of honored to be able to lend a hand to such an awesome project.

And hey, when you look at the milestones between Christmases, that's a pretty eventful year! The gang meets Renet and fights Savanti; Don meets Kirby; there's the Radical and Carnage battle; (my placement of the first Leatherhead meeting happens that year, as well); Halloween brings the King of Thieves; Savanti returns for round 2; then there's the Christmas Eve Foot attack and retreat. The guys were pretty busy in Year 2!

Here's something that I can't remember if you've addressed so far in this thread (I scanned earlier, but there's a lot of ground covered in 10 pages): how long is the exile to Northampton? I've always thought it was a year long, and I could have sworn that someone somewhere in the comics confirms that verbally. However, the dates in April's journal after the move are in January 1987, putting the Foot assault on Leo in December 1986. Then of course, there's the New York Times issue in the opening splash of "Return to New York" showing December 23, 1988. This shows through hard date references that the exile lasted two years.

On the one hand, I can see a 2-year time frame. The C.R.A.P. issue (#12) was obviously set in spring or summer, as the gang is having a nice outdoor picnic and some characters are wearing tank-tops. Then after that, you've got "The Unmentionables" (#14) where snow is on the ground. A few notable issues take place after that, however, like the meeting with Nobody where it doesn't appear to be very cold out. Then in "I, Monster" (which you and I both seem to consider the last notable event before RtNY), the Rat King mentions that "it's really become too cold for the swamp routine," as well as that "the days grow shorter now," so winter is clearly falling.

What say you? 1 year? 2 years? If issue #1 took place in summer, then the "three years ago I saw you die" line from "Return" would support either a 1- or 2-year exile - Leo could round up or down as he saw fit. I just can't remember if or where I've seen a character specifically mention 1 year between the Foot ambush and the return to kill Shredder.

[DrSpengler]

Well, its hard to argue with dates, so I'm inclined to take them as priority when organizing the timeline.

If the exile began in December of 86 and the Return to New York happened in December of 88, then its gotta be two years.

Of course, the ages of the Turtles tend to be inconsistent. I sort of look at that as being "comic book time". Dates can state that several years have passed but a character can remain "17" for however long. Annoying, yeah, but nothing new to comics, I suppose.


As for "Leatherhead", I think I initially had that story in the Retreat to the Farmhouse era, but changed it after discussions with Tristan. Placing it after "Worms of Madness" explains away how the Turtles can be shown living in their old sewer lair without Leatherhead present.

[DrSpengler]

Alright, I have a question I could use some guidance on.

Where would be the best place to stick the story arc from Savage Dragon #2 (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2009/12/savage-dragon-2.html) and Savage Dragon/TMNT #1 (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2009/12/savage-dragontmnt-1.html)?

It has to take place before TMNT (Vol. 2), because its events are referenced in #3, but it can't take place between Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 because of the presence of Donatello.

The second Savage Dragon crossover isn't hard to place. I've already found a slot for the Image Vol. 3 series and I'd just have that arc taking place right before it.

But the first Savage Dragon crossover is giving me kind of a rough time. The only place I can think to fit it is pre-City at War.

[Andrew NDB]

But the first Savage Dragon crossover is giving me kind of a rough time. The only place I can think to fit it is pre-City at War.

Sounds about right to me.

[DrSpengler]

Sounds about right to me.

Kay.

With that in mind, then, I suppose I'd have to stick it at the very end of the "Return to New York" era, right before the "Return to North Hampton" era, since we're trying to keep all these NY/NH settings together.

The only problem I see with that is it would put the story a few years before it was published, but considering it was such a hollow, harmless crossover, it probably wouldn't do any damage.

[DrSpengler]

Alright, added it to the list.

Including since it was referenced in TMNT (Vol. 2) #3, making it Mirage canon in some capacity, anyway.

[Andrew NDB]

I never really thought the Savage Dragon crossovers were ever in doubt (aside from the one inside Vol. 3 itself), given the Mirage-published specials directly dovetailed into the corresponding TSD issues. Or vice-versa.

And the thought of Mirage Mike Dooney stuff not being canon is angering.

[Daniel Orduna]

wow mix up.....why they do the order like that it ¿¿

[ToTheNines]

Shut up. Can you really not comprehend what the point of this thread is? Or would you be more entertained my him just numerically listing each issue of each volume/series?

[DrSpengler]

Hmmm..

Looks like I'll have to transplant the timeline from this thread to my site sooner than I thought.

I tried to add a whole bunch of new stories and I've apparently exceeded the character limit for the post.

I'll work on transplanting the timeline soon and then replace the incomplete one in the first post with a link when I'm finished.

[Mervee4]

Hey, I love this timeline. I have just read straight through the entire thing over the last few months. Is it possible to highlight the updated material? It would make it so much easier to add new and moved books to the correct spots on my shelf.

[Daniel Orduna]

Shut up. Can you really not comprehend what the point of this thread is? Or would you be more entertained my him just numerically listing each issue of each volume/series?



hey ,listen I only have like halfof the tmn tales, so is hard 2 get if u dont have the first comics.. so callate si no saves che culito

[Billbeaux]

Hmmm..

I tried to add a whole bunch of new stories and I've apparently exceeded the character limit for the post.




What all were you planning on adding? I thought the timeline was already about as exhaustive as you could get (barring the few remaining Tales issues).

[DrSpengler]

Alright, I inserted the Bodycount miniseries and the second Savage Dragon crossover into the timeline.

Both were co-published by Mirage and helmed by Mirage staffers. Additionally, they were conceived and begun *before* Image Vol. 3. Radical's depowering in the second Savage Dragon crossover is even loosely reference in Tales #41.

So I figured they oughta be there.


I took the Professor Obligado stuff out of the gap in TMNT Vol. 4 #5 and stuck them in their own section post-Vol. 4. The story is self-contained and could easily take place after Vol. 4, so I figured they'd be better off where they wouldn't clutter up that already stuffed period.

Also did some "era" renaming to be a little more exciting and split up the "Living with April" era into Year One and Year Two so it wouldn't be such an imposting wall of text (and the recent seaparating of the two Christmases facilitated that division quite nicely).


Unfortunately, in order to fit these changes into the post, I had to delete my "thanks guys" paragraph. Don't think I'm ungrateful for all the help! Once I transplant the timeline to my site, the thank you will be restored, I promise. :)


When I do the transplant, I'll add in the Image Vol. 3 series with the proper notations involving canon. Aside from that, that only thing I can think of that needs to be added are the last five issues of Tales and I'll drop those in as they're published.

Looking over my two posts containing canon notations, they're horribly outdated and not very helpful, especially after Tristan and I remodeled the timeline to resolve a lot of those issues.

So I'm probably going to delete those posts after the transplant so as to prevent future confusion from people dropping by. I'll add updated notations to the timeline once I transplant it.

[DrSpengler]

Oh yeah, and I dropped "Sons of the Silent Age" back to be closer to "The River" since Raph's going through the after effects of that storyline.

Not sure why I pushed so far ahead in the first place, come to think of it. As was recommened a page or two back, it does work better closer to "The River", as it was written.


EDIT: And even though its pretty much Image-exclusive, I added the story "Galahad" to the Early Years era with a proper canon notation to accompany it.

[DrSpengler]

Added the obscure and elusive "Muscle and Faith" to the timeline.

Grouped it with a bunch of other Casey-sentric stories just to keep the theme running. No real strict indicator for its placement within the story, other than the Turtles living in the sewer lair.

[ToTheNines]

Ok, I've got some problems with Christmas stories here.

Tales Vol. 2 #53 - "Ghosts of Christmas Past" can't take place in the Return to New York era, since Raph says Shadow wants them to sing Christmas carols with her. So since she's at least 4 years old (possibly older) and they're in the city... I'd say this is anywhere from Volume 3, to Prelude to Volume 4, or even in Volume 4 itself.

The Raphael Christmas Carol short can't take place directly after Return to New York. RTNY parts 2 and 3 take place on Christmas day... I highly doubt the turtles had a cheery Christmas after that ass beating, and Raph wouldn't have been up on the roof tops knowing the Foot would be on full alert all over the city. I'd say this takes place later in the RTNY era, or at the end of another era that doesn't already have a Christmas issue.

Also, unless you're saying a whole year passes between "Alien Invaders", and "Cold, Cold Ice" they should be right next to eachother.

[DrSpengler]

Good observations.

I moved "Alien Invaders" and "Cold Cold Ice" next to one another (but after "Night of the Living Ginerbread since that one takes place on Halloween).

I wanted to keep "A Christmas Carol" and "Ghosts of Christmas Past" together since they segue into one another so well I almost can't believe it was a coincidence.

But where to place them IS an issue.

I stuck them at the end of the Mirage Volume 3 Era just to slot them somewhere harmless, though I'm sure that after looking at seasonal environments in some of the later issues from that period I could find a better place to stick it.

[ToTheNines]

That all works great.

Now I have a question. I was wondering where you placed "Loops" as far as Future Leo is concerned. You have young Leo right, and the other two don't really matter since they hardly remember but to you think his adventure is pre or post "Swan Song"?

[Cipher]

That all works great.

Now I have a question. I was wondering where you placed "Loops" as far as Future Leo is concerned. You have young Leo right, and the other two don't really matter since they hardly remember but to you think his adventure is pre or post "Swan Song"?The ending of "Swan Song" where he climbs into the tree-hut is completely ambiguous. Could happen before or after "Loops," and there's no indication either way.

But "Loops" does have to take place after Complete Carnage is killed. Leo has his techno-sword in "Loops" (which he does not have when he kills Carnage) and says he vowed never to take another life.

[DrSpengler]

Okay, the big move has happened!

GO HERE FOR THE MIRAGE CONTINUITY TIMELINE (http://tmntentity.blogspot.com/2010/01/mirage-comics-continuity-timeline.html)


I have given it a color-coordinated facelift with notations galore and all that good stuff.

What I'd like to know now is what I can do to improve readability. Are there any other types of stories who should have their canon status highlighted by a color code? Are the notations at the bottom useful enough?


And, of course, please continue with observations and recommendations regarding timeline placement of stories. However, I only ask that you make all suggestions in this thread and not in my blog comments. I welcome all feedback, but discussions of this nature are easier to handle in a web forum than through blog comments.

Thanks to everyone who has been helping these past three years. There are still 5 more issues of Tales to be added as they're published and I'm sure more finagaling of what we already have.

[Andrew NDB]

Can I make one suggestion? I really wish you would include a symbol or something to indicate which story is a backup vs. which ones are "main" stories in a given issue.

[oldmanwinters]

Can I make one suggestion? I really wish you would include a symbol or something to indicate which story is a backup vs. which ones are "main" stories in a given issue.

Oh, yeah, I'd really appreciate that. Makes it easier to keep everything straight in my memory.

[DrSpengler]

Good call, guys.

Added a yellow † to denote back-up strips, short comics and anthology episodes.

[ToTheNines]

Cool, I love it.

I wanted to keep "A Christmas Carol" and "Ghosts of Christmas Past" together since they segue into one another so well I almost can't believe it was a coincidence.

Actually, I don't think "A Christmas Carol" is the same Christmas as "Ghosts..."

I say this because of Shadow. While she could have been in the other room, or out with Casey... this story is the only one that was published pre-CAW that you have taking place post-CAW.

So I'd personally just put "Carol" at the end of the RTNY era.

[ToTheNines]

Excuse the double post, but:

I think you should flip "Unmentionables" before "Survivalists", due to the snow.


Also, if you ever feel the need to, I think it would be a good idea to place the future segements of Tales that mainly involve the past. Example: Future Raph at the end of "Day in the life", Future Don in "Tryptyche", and like I mentioned before, Future Leo from "Loops".

And finally, what exactly makes "This Mortal Shell" from #53 non-canon? I know it was done by those students from that art school, but it's a harmless story with Don bull sh*tting with April and then Raph busting up a robbery. Nothing contradictory at all, considering you have stuff like "The Purpose of Fear" on your list.

[DrSpengler]

Hmm...Somehow I neglected to include the story "Word Warriors" when I integrated all the non-contradictory stories from Shell Shock.

Did some research and apparently it was part of a larger comic called "Quest for Dream Lost", which sort of puts the weird events of the tale into context.

Regardless, it's an Eastman/Laird Joint and there's nothing in it that really puts it outside the Mirage universe, though I don't own a copy of Quest for Dreams Lost so I dunno if all the artifacts that the various indie comics characters recovered in the book were returned to the moving van they fell out of or not.


Kinda wonder if I should include their Miami Mice cameo in the timeline, now. That one was also penciled by Eastman and Laird (at least the Turtles were; the Miami Mice were done by Mike Bode and Cerebus was all Dave Sim). There's no explanation in that story as to how the Turtles got to the Miami Mice unvierse, outside of Cerebus making a passing comment about a "crossover spell", though it only seems to be affecting him and not the Turtles.

I'll hold off on that one for now.

[Cipher]

And finally, what exactly makes "This Mortal Shell" from #53 non-canon? I know it was done by those students from that art school, but it's a harmless story with Don bull sh*tting with April and then Raph busting up a robbery. Nothing contradictory at all, considering you have stuff like "The Purpose of Fear" on your list.If it hasn't already been added, I second this question.

Volume 4 is crying out for a moment of character reaction anyway. If anything, it's a little piece that really adds to the Volume 4 (and post-Volume 4) situations.

[ToTheNines]

Kinda wonder if I should include their Miami Mice cameo in the timeline, now. That one was also penciled by Eastman and Laird (at least the Turtles were; the Miami Mice were done by Mike Bode and Cerebus was all Dave Sim). There's no explanation in that story as to how the Turtles got to the Miami Mice unvierse, outside of Cerebus making a passing comment about a "crossover spell", though it only seems to be affecting him and not the Turtles.

Nah, I think that was just a gag.

So what do you think about moving "A Christmas Carol" and "The Unmentionables"?

[DrSpengler]

In regards to "The Mortal Shell" in Tales #53, I didn't include it because Berger goes out of his way in the introduction to assure the reader that it is "non-canon". It was written from the getgo with the understanding that it was not to be a part of continuity, even if there's nothing contradictory within the story itself.

Stuff like Image Vol. 3 and much of the Vol. 1 "guest era" stuff were initially conceived as canon only to be retconned out after the fact. "The Mortal Shell" was never intended to be canon, hence its non-inclusion to the timeline.

As for "A Christmas Carol" and "Ghosts of Christmas Past", I'd still like to keep them together. The two stories compliment one-another very nicely and tell a pretty complete narrative once they segue into each other. "A Christmas Carol" doesn't necessarily *have* to be placed before "Ghosts of Christmas Past", but it works very well there. Just as "15 Years Later" doesn't *have* to be placed within TMNT #1, but works well with the narrative if it is. I'd like to keep them together, even if "A Christmas Carol" was written before the character of Shadow was conceived, as there's nothing in-story to contradict its placement there and it compliments the narrative of another short quite nicely.

And you're right about "The Unmentionables" needing to be moved. I wasn't sure if it should go backward to be closer to the Winter they were exiled, or forward to be closer to the Winter where they returned. I decided to move it backward for now. Also put "Casey Jones, Private Eye" before "The Unmentionables" instead of after it, since Casey's daydreaming about being a sleuth is better suited to forshadowing the events of "The Unmentionables".

[ToTheNines]

Cool, that all works.

But speaking of Beger making a point... I just got Tales 48 yesterday, and in the begining I'm pretty sure he said that they story takes place during Volume 2, was he just plain wrong on this one?

[DrSpengler]

Cool, that all works.

But speaking of Beger making a point... I just got Tales 48 yesterday, and in the begining I'm pretty sure he said that they story takes place during Volume 2, was he just plain wrong on this one?

Looking over it, I don't think he was mistaken. I think me or Tristan might've overlooked the chronology note and stuck it in the "Exile to Northampton" era by mistake because Shadow isn't in the story. But it actually works just fine in the Volume 2 era.

Though I'm not sure how it can take place during Volume 2, since there's no real gap large enough for all the Turtles, Splinter and Casey to go and chill at the farm for however long and have time for that adventure. So I placed it shortly after the end of Volume 2, right before "Mined Games".

[ToTheNines]

Ok, i got another one.

In the Complete Carnage and Radical short from Turtle soup, Raph is bitching about Casey loosing his throwing stars and having to tell Splinter about it. Problem is, you have it placed during the time Splinter was missing.

[DrSpengler]

Ok, i got another one.

In the Complete Carnage and Radical short from Turtle soup, Raph is bitching about Casey loosing his throwing stars and having to tell Splinter about it. Problem is, you have it placed during the time Splinter was missing.

Good point.

So I bumped it and the surrounding Casey/Raph solo stories to just after the Utrom/Triceraton arc, where everything was more or less status quo for a few issues so nothing to prevent them from paling around.

[ToTheNines]

I know they're not out yet, but I'm bored.

Tales # 66 - Should take place in Mirage "Volume 3", right after Tales 65 (That's convenient)
Tales # 67 - Shadow's a kid, just starting school... so sometime in Mirage "V. 3"
Tales # 68 - Some place in voulme 4?
Tales # 69 - Shadow ain't that old on the cover, so I'd say this would be the first one in the future era
Tales # 70 - Some place in between or after the Return to New York issues.

[Billbeaux]

66 takes place during volume 4 (likely during the six month layover). The synopsis from Mirage's "Books of the Future" page:

"There's No Place Like Home" – On New Year's Eve, Mike and Don stumble upon the Madhattan Maulitia's latest scheme to raise funds for their xenophobic war on the visiting aliens - dognapping! Mike and Don are captured when trying to free the canines and it's up to Raph, Leo and Casey Jones to rescue them from the terrorist hate group!

I'm with you on the other issues, though.

[ToTheNines]

Alright, makes sense. I just put it there because it was after Tales 57, which also featured the Madhattan Maulitia.

[ToTheNines]

Is Volume 1 #18 "Shell of the Dragon" non-canon? I've never read it, but I noticed it's not on your list.

[DrSpengler]

Aftering reading Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #66, it doesn't appear to take place in the 6 month gap in TMNT (Vol. 4) #5.

It actually looks to take place only a few days or weeks before TMNT (Vol. 4) #1.

So I stuck it at the end of the "Prelude to Volume 4" era.

[DrSpengler]

I was thinking, perhaps Tales of the TMNT (Vol. 2) #57, "The Gangs all Here", should take place after "The Proposal" but before "Image Volume 3". I suggest thins because "The Gang's all Here" featured the Turtles deciding it was time to move back into a new sewer lair, and the Image series begins with them living in a sewer lair.

I'll have to doublecheck Shadow's age between "The Proposal" and "The Gangs all Here" to see if they correspond with the Image series or not, but I'm at work at the moment.

[ToTheNines]

I'll check those two for ya soon. But I got a couple of things: "The Purpose of Fear" should be colored red, it was from an anthology book, and not done by a Mirage guy, and I just plain hate it lol.

Also, in "Kung-fu Theatre" one of the turtles remarks that the Foot ninjas they're fighting are skilled. And since you put that in the "sh*tty ninja" era, you might wanna reconsider (unless you think it was a sarcastic remark).

[ToTheNines]

Ok, so I checked out 57. Shadow is young, but not too young. She seems to be the same age (probably a tad younger) than she was in 51, but she was a baby in "The Proposal"... so it depends on how old she was in the Image series (which I have not read).

[DrSpengler]

Okay, so I took a look at em, myself.

In "The Proposal", she's an infant that can barely say complete words ("Ikey!" and "Pinter!").

In TMNT (Vol. 3) #6, she speaks in broken, short sentences ("Don't wanna go to bed! Wanna play s'more!").

And in "The Gangs All Here" she's capable of making observations and speaking in more complex sentences ("You're ALWAYS in trouble, Unca Raph!" and "It's NOT complicated! I want you to stay!").

So going by that, it appears that the original placement should stand, even if it creates a bit of a continuity glitch in regards to the sewer lair.


As for "The Purpose of Fear", it wasn't colored red because that was just for stories between TMNT (Vol. 1) #21 and #45 that aren't "Heart of Stone" or "Sons of the Silent Age".

I could extend the coloring to all Anthology stories not produced by in-housers, though.

I'll look into it.

[ToTheNines]

That might be good, but that one in particular... Leo acts very childish, and I remember Splinter saying something stupid/out-of-character, I'll have to re-read it.

And I checked Kungfu Theatre: Donnie says "These guys have great technique, and their fighting style is similar to our own..." Not verbatim, but very close.

[DrSpengler]

Okay, so I made some changes.

I colored red all the Turtle Soup stories entirely fron guest contributors, while keeping white all the stories from in-house creators.

I also added in "Raphael: Snapper" which I had overlooked the first time through. It was written by Peter Laird, so it should be included and is no weirder than a lot of the other shorts (like "New Comic Day", of which the two stories are very similar). I put it before "Leatherhead", since it involves April telling Raph to go to the sewer lair to a get a broom.

I also added a notation paragraph regarding the Turtle Soup series at the bottom of the page with the other notation paragraphs.


As for "Kung Fu Theater", I wouldn't put too much stock in that. They say that sort of stuff about enemy skill levels all the time. Leo called Chucky in "The Gangs all Here" skilled when he was still a total push-over.

If it helps, I could push it back to be closer to "Return to the New York", as the Foot might not have decayed in skill quite so much if it was just after the Shredder's defeat.

[ToTheNines]

Cool. And for "Kungfu Theatre", what ever you think works. Honestly I was just nit-picking because this thing is getting close to perfection (pretty exciting huh?)

I know Tristas helped alot, but have you considered running it by Dan? And through him, maybe even Peter?

[DrSpengler]

Cool. And for "Kungfu Theatre", what ever you think works. Honestly I was just nit-picking because this thing is getting close to perfection (pretty exciting huh?)

It IS pretty exciting. But also a bit deflating, knowing that there isn't much to do anymore.

I remember when I started this project and the thrill of hunting down all those back-up guest strips and every scrap of Turtles fiction I could get my hands on, then trying to piece the ever-growing tapestry together on bit at a time.

Those were the days.

I know Tristas helped alot, but have you considered running it by Dan? And through him, maybe even Peter?

I could show it to Dan, though I'd be a little embarassed. I mean, I don't want to look like I'm patting myself on the back or anything. Some input from him on where I might be off could be informative. Outside of Tristan, I haven't gotten any insider help on this thing.

Laird? Well, from all the examples I've seen of how he interacts with his fanbase, the guy seems really abusive and ill-tempered. I don't think he'd be impressed or helpful. I'm not afraid to start a dialogue with him, I just don't really want to.


And speaking of Tristan, where is the guy, anyway? I haven't seen him since he made that "Bad day" post on his blog on Jan. 2nd.

Hope he's alright.

[ToTheNines]

Yeah, that does kinda suck.

And I understand about the Berger and Laird thing.

Aaaand, according to facebook... Tristan was alive 15 hours ago lol. So I bet he's ok.

[DrSpengler]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, in regards to "The Purpose of Fear", there really wasn't anything contradictory about it, aside from some slightly more whimsical art than usual.

It was a pretty serious piece about Leo asking Splinter what fear is. The only "silly" dialogue was Splinter's final line, "By jove I think he's got it", though I don't think that's enough to make it completely worth disregarding.

[ToTheNines]

I agree, i just don't like it lol.

[TristanHuwJones]

I'm here! I've been kinda crazy busy lately. Money's tighter than usual, my internet connection has revolved largely around what I can and can't access with my cell phone and there's been a few somewhat dramatic life changes... but I'm here (and will have a significantly less depressing blog update soon too)!

I know Dan's seen the timeline, and is massively impressed with it, but I'm not sure about Peter. I've actually tried getting in touch with him a few times since the sale, but haven't had any luck getting a response (which is unusual, actually), so whether he's seen the list is something I'm not entirely sure about. I definitely pointed it out to him though...

[DrSpengler]

Good to hear!

(Both that you didn't commit seppuku and that Dan dug the timeline.)

[TristanHuwJones]

Good to hear!

(Both that you didn't commit seppuku and that Dan dug the timeline.)

There was a plan at one point to do everything in chronological order. But then the sale happened :ohwell:

[discordiatookie]

There was a plan at one point to do everything in chronological order. But then the sale happened :ohwell:

Its Tristan Huw Jones! Yay! Was wondering where you were...

So would this have been released as TPBs?

That woulda been alot of stuff to release, and I can imagine there would've been many arguments with Laird by many folks that some stories were missed out. Ah the crazy times! :lol:

[DrSpengler]

There was a plan at one point to do everything in chronological order. But then the sale happened :ohwell:

That would've been tighter than Urkel's pants, definately.

Though, if there's any bright side, it's that a few discrepencies in the timeline have been fixed since the Viacom buy-out, which otherwise would've found there way into the Mirage Universe Sourcebook and thus that reference material would've been written with a flawed timeline. And that wouldn't have been good.

But damn, I was psyched for that print credit I was gonna get. :ohwell:

[Andrew NDB]

I still don't understand why they couldn't have done the Mirage sourcebook as a "mini-series" of 32-page books.

[DrSpengler]

I still don't understand why they couldn't have done the Mirage sourcebook as a "mini-series" of 32-page books.

That's...a good observation.

They probably could've done something like the old Archie Mutant Universe Sourcebooks, unless there was some clause in their Viacom contract requiring them to only print narratives and not sourcebooks.

Hurm. I wonder how much of that thing was finished, anyway? It was supposed to come out December 14th, so I imagine just about all of it had to be finished and ready to go right before the buy-out killed it.

Such a shame. Maybe they'll just hand whatever they've completed over to whatever company Viacom licenses the comic out to and we'll see it printed there, some day.

[oldmanwinters]

I still don't understand why they couldn't have done the Mirage sourcebook as a "mini-series" of 32-page books.

If it ain't mind-boggling, it ain't Mirage?

[ToTheNines]

unless there was some clause in their Viacom contract requiring them to only print narratives and not sourcebooks.

I think you're close with that... I know panel to panel was planning some sort of prose story by Jake Black (think it was him), and that was cancelled because it wasn't a regular ole' comic book.

[pm5kfan212]

does anybody know where the Flaming Carrot crossovers fit in? I've seen on a few other sites that they are both considered cannon, just not where they fit in.

[DrSpengler]

does anybody know where the Flaming Carrot crossovers fit in? I've seen on a few other sites that they are both considered cannon, just not where they fit in.

I'd have to re-read both crossovers to be certain, but The Flaming Carrot Universe in and of itself seems way to wacky to coexist with the TMNT Universe and I recall at least the first Flaming Carront/TMNT crossover getting pretty insanely silly.

Do you have links to the sites claiming them as part of mainstream Mirage continuity? It might help me out a bit. I'll go through them, though, and see if they're as contradictory in tone as I remember them being.

[pm5kfan212]

here are the links to some of the sites i saw in regards to the crossovers, i may be reading more into them than necessary though.

http://tmnt.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_TMNT_Mirage_Comics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercompany_crossovers

both say they are official crossovers, which would lead me to believe they are canon in some way or another. although i am just now getting into the TMNT comics and so far the continuity seems more complicated than all of Marvel putt together.( I am an avid Marvel reader/fan)