Leonardo -

[jenna]

As there is now a thread for Raph and Don, I thought I would throw one for Leo into the mix.... Drumroll..............

My thoughts:

Leonardo, the eldest, the team’s leader, is strong, disciplined, a keen pupil of ninjitsu and a follower of Bushido. He is very ego driven, and simultaneously is the most likely to suffer a crisis in confidence. As the leader he is more likely to provide a halfway point between his brothers and their Sensei, Splinter, rather than to take full responsibility for the team. He often struggles to maintain his leadership role, as despite his wisdom and sensibility he is still only a teenager. On occasion he has been shown to let his rebellious side out, which consequentially results in anarchy and panic amongst his brothers. He is very close with Splinter, and also with his brother Raphael, with whom he is very competitive and despite their closeness, there is much conflict between them.

This conflict is largely due to the fact that Raphael is prone to challenge Leonardo’s leadership and decisions, and Leonardo constantly struggles to argue his corner and assert his authority over his volatile brother. Much of his learning curve is in gaining the confidence and authority to do this. Michelangelo and Donatello are more accepting of Leonardo’s role and do not put up the same fight as Raphael.

Leonardo is confident and calm in threatening situations and carries the responsibility as the eldest brother with honour.

The 1987 cartoon has Leonardo as a very competent leader who often shares the role with his brothers, particularly Donatello who, he recognises, has strengths and abilities above his own. Leonardo is very sensible and a noble apprentice to Splinter, and is often criticised by his brothers as being boring and equally often told that he needs to “lighten up”. Whenever he is absent, the remaining team falls apart and becomes directionless. Notable moments during this incarnation include a crisis in confidence he suffered with regards to his leadership skills in Series 3, which led him to leave his brothers to embark on a brief voyage of self-discovery, during which he came to the realisation that rather than working to improve himself, he was simply wallowing in self-pity and was leaving his brothers without a leader whilst he was indulging his own self-absorption. This self-awareness is something that Leonardo often exhibits, and he is frequent to acknowledge his failings and to better himself as a result.

The 2003 cartoon exposes Leonardo’s weaknesses as well as proclaiming him the team’s hero. Whilst he is obviously more skilled in ninjitsu than any of his brothers, he is prone to arrogance and is a popular choice for narratives dedicated to his own emotional journey as he learns to be more humble and to recognise his limitations. He is shown to bear the burden of responsibility and provides the voice of reason when his three brothers rebel against Splinter, but is often ignored and finds himself pulled along. His ability to stand up to Raphael is limited, but he often demonstrates greater competence than his brother, eventually causing Raphael to accept his word. In Series 4, following a violent defeat of his family by The Shredder, Leonardo, seeing himself as a failure for allowing his brothers and master to be injured, undergoes a period of turmoil and rage, to the extent where he injures Splinter with his Katana, prompting Splinter to send him on a training journey to Japan where he faces his anger and accepts the events that transpired. He comes to terms with the defeat of his family and eventually returns to them a more competent leader.

The 1990 film depicts Leonardo as a young teenager struggling to adapt to his role as leader. Whilst he is conflicted between the roles of ‘Leonardo the teenager’ and ‘Leonardo the leader’, he carries the burden of leadership with a tendency towards guilt and shame in failure. He is shown to reach breaking point during an argument with Raphael. He becomes petulant and petty. That these actions cause Raphael to storm out on his own, leaving him open to an attack that nearly kills him, leads Leonardo to plummet into a spiral of guilt. He becomes inactive until his brother has recovered. His bond with Raphael is demonstrated here, as Leonardo’s regret reminds him how much he loves his brother despite their differences. Leonardo’s leadership skills are tested in this film as their master, Splinter, is abducted and Leonardo is left as the sole leader. Whereas at first he backs away from the new responsibility by opting to avoid confrontational methods, he eventually finds his way and leads the team in a battle to recover their master. This film is very much a learning curve for Leonardo, who makes many mistakes, but learns from them.

In the new film, Leonardo adapts to changing responsibilities having travelled the world on a training programme and is forced to manage himself under Splinter’s higher expectations. The eruption of the long-brewing conflict between him and Raphael comes to a violent climax which ultimately is cathartic for both of them.

Can't be bothered to write anymore.... :sleep:

[Scandia]

You beat me to it.

Leonardo is my favorite. It is kinda hard to define why- but his being both "teacher's pet" and "daddy's boy" probably have something to do with it.

He's far from perfect. He engages in a lot of introspection- more than at least two of his brothers, and about as much as Donatello does. He is a dynamic character after all- even though he is at a higher level than the other three.

Even though he is the leader, he probably feels awkward among his brothers. He is extremely interested in martial arts and would probably have sought them out on his own- while the other 3 do not seem to be quite as much into it and just go along with it as the family trade or to fight the baddies.

I love the Leonardo-centric episodes of the old cartoon. And it is quite interesting that Shredder approached him first- not just because he's so into martial arts, but because he was also the leader and closest to Splinter.

[jenna]

You beat me to it.



Yeah, maybe, but I couldn't think of a witty play on words for the title! look how lame it is! leonardo - ...............:-? :lol:

[triplexxx]

I love the Leonardo-centric episodes of the old cartoon. And it is quite interesting that Shredder approached him first- not just because he's so into martial arts, but because he was also the leader and closest to Splinter.
When was that? The first place Shredder met them in the old toon was the Technodrome in Enter the Shredder and he met them all at once. I think you're referring to the new toon; if that's what you meant, then never mind this. And to be perfectly honest, I don't think Shredder specifically chose him for any reason except that he was the only one currently out on the rooftops; Shredder knew nothing about him, or his brothers, or his connection to his father; all he knew was that four weird-looking, expert martial artists were interfering with his business.

[Scandia]

This was in the New Toon. I forgot to explain- I was in a rush.

And I just wanted to add that I just watched "Tales of Leo" from the NT. It was pure bliss! I loved the flashbacks to when the Turtles were little boys. And I adored seeing how much Splinter invested in Leonardo. I'm pretty sure he did the same with the other Turtles regarding their specific needs. But it is very easy to see how and why Leo and Splinter bonded so well.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Leonardo is my second favorite, after Raph. I didn't like how stiff he was portrayed in the old show, but I thought that the new toon and new movie did a great job in showcasing a more realistic leader. He's confident, but sometimes over confidant, he is self doubting at first, but after "The Ancient One", he became stronger than ever.

he can be compared to Cyclops, but I think he's overall better. Leo's more accessible and relateable, he comes off as more thanm stiff, and unlike Cclops, he's an older brother first and a leader second.

[TurtleTrails]

Hey Jenna. You did a really good job breaking down Leo in each medium! I definitely agree with you. I don't really have much to add to that but as a fellow Leo lover I felt compelled to write something here. Hehe.

One thing I would add is that I think that Leo spends a lot of his time being the person everyone expects him to be. Leo spends so much time focusing on others and on martial arts that it's easy to perceive him as "boring". Having dealt with those similar personalities myself, once you get past their cover they tend to be very deep and really passionate. But then again...that's my humble opinion. :D

[jenna]

Hey Jenna. You did a really good job breaking down Leo in each medium! I definitely agree with you. I don't really have much to add to that but as a fellow Leo lover I felt compelled to write something here. Hehe.

One thing I would add is that I think that Leo spends a lot of his time being the person everyone expects him to be. Leo spends so much time focusing on others and on martial arts that it's easy to perceive him as "boring". Having dealt with those similar personalities myself, once you get past their cover they tend to be very deep and really passionate. But then again...that's my humble opinion. :D

Very true. Definitely Leo.

[Scandia]

Come on people! Write some more about Leonardo! He's far from a one-dimensional character. He is not shallow. He is not simple.

He is certainly NOT Splinter's puppet.

[aabxx]

I find it interesting that Leo finds revenge to be wrong and without honor. He says in the tale with Cha Ocho that it only leads to sorrow in the future. It is interesting considering he and his brothers in part were raised to exact revenge on behalf of Splinter (who wanted revenge because of a chain of events that basically acknowledges what Leo was lecturing Cha about). I wonder if Splinter and Leo disagree about this? Maybe Splinter ties revenge deeply to honour, so much that he is willing to let it cause more hatred and destruction, while Leo has learned (I assume he thought otherwise when fighting the Shredder) after a while that it's not what he considers to be the right choice of action. But then we come back to the lecturing part...

Is it really fair of Leo to decide for Cha Ocho that exacting his revenge is wrong, after he's had his on Shredder? And does he enjoy too much fighting in an arrogant manner while belittling his opponent in the name of lecturing (he does the same thing against Cha that he does against the nightwatcher...)? What's even more interesting is that the Cha and nighwatcher fights are even more related because just like with Cha, Leo is trying to deny the nightwatcher the very same thing he's been doing all over the world... as both Cha and Raph would put it, Leo can be way too smug. And while trying to teach Cha something about revenge, Leo does something very curious... he scars Cha on purpose, as a mark of shame, but in doing so he looks a bit full of himself considering he's given Cha a reason to... some day... take... revenge!

And besides... wasn't the very act of teaching him a lesson and scarring him also some sort of... revenge? Perhaps it would've been better to just let him be and ponder for himself whether it was right or not.

But then again, maybe Leo thought it was worth it if it meant there was a small chance of saving Cha... it didn't work out though (I assume). He also didn't manage to convince the nightwatcher or Raphael on the rooftop... maybe Leo was right, but his delivery sometimes just isn't good enough? But then again, what else could he have done against the Nightwatcher and Raphael? Maybe he thought it was the only way to make them listen... and maybe it was... I dunno. I'm only providing some thoughts, not answers :)

[Warhorse]

Come on people! Write some more about Leonardo! He's far from a one-dimensional character. He is not shallow. He is not simple.

He is certainly NOT Splinter's puppet.


No. He's not Splinter's puppet. He's more like Splinter Junior!:P

Well, out of all the Turtles, I see Leo as the one Turtle who has the possibility of snapping the most. He tries so hard to build an almost emotionless external. I've noticed that he doesn't express his sorrows, shames, regrets, pleasures or other interests that he enjoys to a surface level. I also find Leo to be the one Turtle that is a bit alone, I guess is the right word. Depends on the mediums we are talking about, but Donny had a buddying relationships with Mikey and April, and even Casey to a point. Raph is close friends to Casey and Mikey. And Mikey welcomes all that accept him for what and who he is with open arms.

But poor Leo, I find has a hard time in relaxing and letting go during down times. He's got a great rapport with Splinter, and he is a great brother when it comes to protecting them, or getting them in line for a battle. But I always thought Splinter should let him know that it's ok to have friends and have fun.

I just wonder, how much can Leo take of always being the responsible one, and not letting his guard down, even with his family and close friends, before he completely breaks and snaps. He came close in the 2k3 toon, in the episode Ancient One, but then Splinter sends him off, by himself, to see the Ancient One. Wouldn't it be more healthier to keep your family close while you are going through a mini life crisis?

[TurtleTrails]

Leo's definitely not one dimensional. He tries so hard to be perfect that he holds so much in without relief. I think with the 2k3 series maybe Splinter wanted give Leo some room to breathe by having a change in scenery? Sometimes it's easier to think and see a situation better by taking a step back. Then again Leo could have lost it and cracked completely on his own too....I guess it's good for us that didn't happened in the cartoon. :lol:

[Scandia]

I wonder if Leo's best friend is Splinter because Splinter is the only one who truly understands him. That his other 3 brothers are just not at his level and cannot quite comprehend all that Leo feels and goes through. Not just because they share the same interests and passion for martial arts. Not just because their personalities are so similar. But because only Splinter truly understands Leonardo.

[Warhorse]

I wonder if Leo's best friend is Splinter because Splinter is the only one who truly understands him. That his other 3 brothers are just not at his level and cannot quite comprehend all that Leo feels and goes through. Not just because they share the same interests and passion for martial arts. Not just because their personalities are so similar. But because only Splinter truly understands Leonardo.

Well, Leo doesn't exactly go out of his way to join Raph and Casey for some good brawl or sporting event, or gets excited with Don when he has fixed something or invented something, or pick up a video game consol for a one on one with Mikey. When it comes to miscommunication, it's kind of a two way street.

While people could point the finger at Raph for his miscommunication, he still, in the end, talks things through with Casey, Splinter or Leo, or he gets a little emotional release from his bond with Mikey. He's not limited to just one entity, and goes to several for help.

[triplexxx]

join Raph and Casey for some good brawl or sporting event
"The Golden Puck"
gets excited with Don when he has fixed something or invented something
Battleshell, turtlevision goggles, etc.-> don't know if actual "excitement" is shown, but definite "appreciation" no doubt. In the OT ep "The Old Switcheroo" the super-fast pizza maker.
or pick up a video game consol for a one on one with Mikey.
"Gaminator","Timing is Everything"...not one-on-one, but still there.

Just pointing it out.

[Scandia]

And there was an episode in the OT where they all were playing basketball and Leo is very excited about it and joins his brothers in telling Splinter how cool basketball is.

[triplexxx]

In OT also, "Leonardo vs Tempestra", he claims he's beaten every game in there twice.

[Warhorse]

That's why I said he doesn't exactly go out of his way. Most of the things I see, are a group thing, but they are far and few between when it is the group on down time, and not fighting or training. But when he's troubled, he seems to lack places and entities to turn to for help or advice.

[SassyGal]

I feel bad that Leonardo kinda gets such a bad rap for being the most stiff turtle. He's the leader & has all this responsiblity on his shoulders but feels like he can't talk to his brothers about it because they just wouldn't understand or in Raph's case, end up fighting about why he's leader in the first place. I never liked him as a kid, but know I kinda like how he takes on his burdens alone & just goes on, trying to be the best leader for his bros. I like the way he was portrayed in the first movie the best :)

[triplexxx]

Well, they all get wrongful bad raps now and then from each other. Leonardo because they think he's boring and stiff when all he means is to help his family. Donatello because he's a nerd and a workaholic when he's really dedicating pretty much all his work to the safety and comfort of his family. Raphael because he's a hothead and they think he's careless when what he's truly passionate about is protecting his family and doing justice a favor. Michaelangelo because they think he's brainless or just an annoying idiot when he just wants to keeps his family's spirits up so they stay happy and optimistic.
None are perfect at what they do and they do have their faults and every now and then deserve a bit of a rap, but all their true intentions are utterly noble and for the good of their family.

[Scandia]

It is a very good thing that all the Turtles have flaws and none of them are perfect. In anime discussions, often people complain that a given character is "too perfect". It is also good that the flaws are evenly distributed. It's not like Raphael is a total piece of work while the other 3 are nearly perfect in comparison. OK, so Raph and Mikey give Splinter more green hairs than Leo and Donnie.

In other words, I do not think there is an Optimus Prime equivalent in the TMNT universe. When I asked for "most flawless character" in an anime message board, everyone nominated Optimus Prime.

[Warhorse]

It is a very good thing that all the Turtles have flaws and none of them are perfect. In anime discussions, often people complain that a given character is "too perfect". It is also good that the flaws are evenly distributed. It's not like Raphael is a total piece of work while the other 3 are nearly perfect in comparison. OK, so Raph and Mikey give Splinter more green hairs than Leo and Donnie.

In other words, I do not think there is an Optimus Prime equivalent in the TMNT universe. When I asked for "most flawless character" in an anime message board, everyone nominated Optimus Prime.


So true.

I think it's not only the flawed characters that I like about the Turtles compared to other comic book/superheroes/heroes in general, but that you also have a flavor to choose from, and that they dont where tights.:D

But I think I like it that there is no main atoganist, like you would have in Spider-man, Superman or Batman. It just makes the Turtles more unique.

[jenna]

So true.

I think it's not only the flawed characters that I like about the Turtles compared to other comic book/superheroes/heroes in general, but that you also have a flavor to choose from, and that they dont where tights.:D

But I think I like it that there is no main atoganist, like you would have in Spider-man, Superman or Batman. It just makes the Turtles more unique.

This is absolutely spot on. Flawed characters are real characters. They are not believable if we can't see them making mistakes or sometimes not being perfect or a hero. It makes them so much more relatable.

Leo is an interesting case because he puts pressure on himself to be perfect, but can never match up because he's struggling to meet an unquantifiable ideal, and the goal post will always be moving. That's part of why he is such a conflicted character.

[JusticeForce]

But I think I like it that there is no main atoganist, like you would have in Spider-man, Superman or Batman. It just makes the Turtles more unique.I've always been drawn more to stories that feature a team or group of heroes, because I find the most interesting part about a character I love is seeing them interact with the other characters I love. I don't think I'd be interested at all in Leo if he starred in a story where he was an only child that was striving for personal perfection while being his own worst critic, even if he was still a well-rounded character. But seeing him dealing with all of that along with trying to lead his younger brothers who just don't take training as seriously as he does - one who will butt heads with him because he resents him for his place as "teacher's pet", one who'd rather be in his workshop than practicing his ninjitsu, and one who seems to not be able to take anything seriously - THAT's what makes him interesting. :)

- T

[BigApple3AM]

The 1990 film depicts Leonardo as a young teenager struggling to adapt to his role as leader. Whilst he is conflicted between the roles of ‘Leonardo the teenager’ and ‘Leonardo the leader’, he carries the burden of leadership with a tendency towards guilt and shame in failure. He is shown to reach breaking point during an argument with Raphael. He becomes petulant and petty. That these actions cause Raphael to storm out on his own, leaving him open to an attack that nearly kills him, leads Leonardo to plummet into a spiral of guilt. He becomes inactive until his brother has recovered. His bond with Raphael is demonstrated here, as Leonardo’s regret reminds him how much he loves his brother despite their differences. Leonardo’s leadership skills are tested in this film as their master, Splinter, is abducted and Leonardo is left as the sole leader. Whereas at first he backs away from the new responsibility by opting to avoid confrontational methods, he eventually finds his way and leads the team in a battle to recover their master. This film is very much a learning curve for Leonardo, who makes many mistakes, but learns from them.


I disagree. How could he have known he was sending Raph to a rooftop fight? And petty? Not any more so than Raph was acting. Of course being the leader he's the one who has to realize they were both wrong and as the responsible one had to make sure Raph was okay afterwards, but inactive? You don't remember the huge fight right after Raph was hurt? I agree he does play watchdog at the farm, but he wasn't any more inactive than mikey or don. What was don doing other than sitting in the truck with casey making jokes while casey worked on the truck... heh, shoulda been the other way around but oh well. Otherwise everything else is spot on, but I'd like to add that Leo is the only one who could handle shredder, but he has a raph moment and his own frustration and anger takes control and makes him the worst almost leading to his brothers' death. I like this Leo but even in the end he acts immature, he should have been more leader-like but oh well.


Oh and Optimus Prime the least flawed character? I dunno, I can totally see it, but there are a couple g1 episodes where he completely messes up. Like that one where he makes the autobots leave earth and almost sends them crashing into the sun because of what I thought was his own pride/sense of honor. In the movie he's not perfect either, considering he gets killed. But yeah as far as flawed leaders go Optimus has nothing on Rodimus.

[triplexxx]

but I'd like to add that Leo is the only one who could handle shredder
No, he's not. He stands no more a chance against Shredder than any of his brothers.

[Spawn Guy]

Let a fellow fan have an opinion.

[triplexxx]

My apologies, but it sounded to me like he was trying to state a fact, and that's not a fact.

[Spawn Guy]

Same could be said of you in a lot of cases.

[Scandia]

I don't think I'd be interested at all in Leo if he starred in a story where he was an only child that was striving for personal perfection while being his own worst critic, even if he was still a well-rounded character.

I wonder how they would get along if it were just Splinter and Splinter Jr. If it would go even smoother, or if they would butt heads. I do tend to like idealistic lionhearted characters that strive for perfection.

Regarding handling Shredder, I think that Leonardo did have higher skill and maturity than his brothers due to his higher dedication to training. However, whether he could actually defeat Shredder on his own would be another story.

[JusticeForce]

Speaking of 1990 movie Leo in the rooftop battle with the Shredder...

Raph of course attacks Shredder first, but after he's knocked away and Leo comments "This guy's good!", Mikey pays Leo a compliment by saying "Yeah, why don't you go next?" to which he replies, "Thank you." But then he only lasts about half a second against him. :roll: However, in the later fighting montage he seems to redeem himself by being the only one you see leaving an impression on the Shredder (ie. slashing his arm).

I think the reason he has his "Raph moment" (as Ectocooler so eloquently called it ;)) is not just because he's upset about the Shredder saying Splinter is dead, but because he feels Shredder is also dissing the spiritual experience they had around the campfire.

- T

[jenna]

I disagree. How could he have known he was sending Raph to a rooftop fight?

You are very welcome to disagree with me, but I don't think I explained properly. I didn't mean that Leo would know Raph would be attacked - I meant that he feels this guilt with hindsight and regrets his actions later.

And petty? Not any more so than Raph was acting.

Yeah, but we expect this kind of behaviour from Raph. Leo is usually able to rise above Raph and his childish tantrums, but whilst under the pressure of Splinter's absence he is less tolerant.

Of course being the leader he's the one who has to realize they were both wrong and as the responsible one had to make sure Raph was okay afterwards, but inactive? You don't remember the huge fight right after Raph was hurt? I agree he does play watchdog at the farm, but he wasn't any more inactive than mikey or don.

Absolutely, I remember the fight after and I realise I neglected to refer to this. They all fought fantastically and bravely under the circumstances. At the farm Leo retreats into himself (whilst Mike faces his own rage and Don seeks humour from a replacement for Mike (Casey)) and is not able to take the bull by the horns until he has resolved his conflict about Raph and this happens during his sole mediation scene.

but I'd like to add that Leo is the only one who could handle shredder, but he has a raph moment and his own frustration and anger takes control and makes him the worst almost leading to his brothers' death. I like this Leo but even in the end he acts immature, he should have been more leader-like but oh well.

In my opinion this Leo is a young Leo who has a lot to learn, but makes a huge journey in this film, moreso than any other turtle. His "Raph moment" as you brilliantly put it is a sign that Leonardo, for all his virtue, is still a young turtle who must learn to handle his own rage just as Raph has to. It is only in extreme circumstances that Leo is unable to do this. Leo's lesson is the greatest. He meets a huge obstacle in his development when Splinter is abducted, but he eventually overcomes it and leads his brothers to meet their enemy head on. If he wasn't an accomplished leader at the start of the film, he is by the end.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

However, whether he could actually defeat Shredder on his own would be another story.

Uhh...about that...Eastman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles vol 1 issue 21.

[triplexxx]

Uhh...about that...Eastman and Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles vol 1 issue 21.
And it wouldn't have happened without his brothers helping him; like always, it's a team effort.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

And it wouldn't have happened without his brothers helping him; like always, it's a team effort.

Dude, I'm talking about the actual fight itself, Leo won alone.

[triplexxx]

Dude, I'm talking about the actual fight itself, Leo won alone.
And if Raphael hadn't fired the rocket launcher, Leonardo'd have been dead. And there's no reason to think any of the others couldn't have done the same had they been given the chance. Donatello delivered the death blow the first time they "killed" him.

[BigApple3AM]

Yeah it's a team effort, obviously, but when it comes to who can handle shredder the best, which I don't think any of them really can, Leo is the one I'd choose to go solo. In the movie Leo is the only one to hurt the shredder. In the first issue don doesn't give the death blow, shredder was pretty much dead, he was gutted by Leo. Don just saves the turtle's by knocking the grenade, but by your logic anyone could have done that right? Still like you said it was a team effort, none of them had a chance solo so they fell back and did group tactics like throwing stars. All I'm saying is it's made apparent that Leo is the one who strives to be the best, and thus he's usually the one to handle shredhead.

Regarding film Leo, and Jenna's repost, I agree, and isn't it a shame we got some great character development only for it to be mostly wasted in 2 and 3? I love the second movie, it's just fun, but in some ways I wish there was a more true sequel. I don't really consider the latest movie to fill that void, I think they did a great job making their own universe.

Great thread btw. Lots of insight that I wouldn't normally pick up on. Definitely makes watching the first film more enjoyable.

[jenna]

Regarding film Leo, and Jenna's repost, I agree, and isn't it a shame we got some great character development only for it to be mostly wasted in 2 and 3? I love the second movie, it's just fun, but in some ways I wish there was a more true sequel. I don't really consider the latest movie to fill that void, I think they did a great job making their own universe.



I agree with you - and I think that Rooish said it best in another thread - can't remember her exact wording but it was something along the lines of you could have substituted any characters into the sequels and the plot would have been the same, but with film 1 it was uniquely the turtles.

I love film 2 too, but more for the entertainment factor rather than character development and intelligent content. If all the films had taken the same approach as film 1 the movie universe would have made more of a mark as classic films, whereas in my opinion only film 1 can be marked as a classic. (Although, having said that, I think in years to come the new film will be regarded as a classic too, but for different reasons).

[Scandia]

I think the second one mainly develops Donatello out of the 4 Turtles. At least it shows some of Donnie's interests and traits and strengths. The third one- well, I requested it so I will see exactly who gets the most development.

When I went to watch the third one at the movies, I ran into a classmate who was going to watch "Far and Away". She told me that if I wanted to, I could come with her instead of to see TMNT 3. I decided not to...and I do not regret it. Still haven't watched "Far and Away" :)

As for Leo, let's just say that I changed my desktop wallpaper yesterday to one of the fan arts. A fan art that did not need to tell me which Turtle was in it for me to figure out it was Leo.

[TurtleTrails]

I think the second one mainly develops Donatello out of the 4 Turtles. At least it shows some of Donnie's interests and traits and strengths. The third one- well, I requested it so I will see exactly who gets the most development.

When I went to watch the third one at the movies, I ran into a classmate who was going to watch "Far and Away". She told me that if I wanted to, I could come with her instead of to see TMNT 3. I decided not to...and I do not regret it. Still haven't watched "Far and Away" :)

As for Leo, let's just say that I changed my desktop wallpaper yesterday to one of the fan arts. A fan art that did not need to tell me which Turtle was in it for me to figure out it was Leo.

Could you put on a link to the fan art? I love looking at people's fan arts. I just finished swooning over Bess's fan art on another thread.

As for picking TMNT 3 over Far and Away I would agree that you made the right choice! :) Even though I'm not a big fan of TMNT 3 I would pick turtles over anything else!

[Scandia]

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/39585583/?qo=294&q=ninja+turtles&qh=boost%3Apopular+age_sigma%3A24h+age_scale%3A5

I would love to see one with all 4 baby Turtles sleeping next to Splinter. But this one was superb. And the Turtle is very much in character.

[TurtleTrails]

http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/39585583/?qo=294&q=ninja+turtles&qh=boost%3Apopular+age_sigma%3A24h+age_scale%3A5

I would love to see one with all 4 baby Turtles sleeping next to Splinter. But this one was superb. And the Turtle is very much in character.


Thanks for posting Scandia!! :) It really shows how close Leo and Splinter are. I love it! It's interesting how close Leo and Splinter are and how Splinter calls upon him to be the leader and responsible for his younger siblings welfare. Splinter must know that he placed a heavy burden upon Leo's shoulders. I wonder if Splinter ever feels sorrow or even regret for putting so much responsibility one sibling?

[triplexxx]

Well that doesn't change the fact that it's still every turtle's responsibility to look after the family, and every one of them does a good job at it; they all have to protect each other, and they all do the same job and serve the same purpose in life, which is to look out for each other and for other innocent people. None of the turtles or Splinter have an easy life. They've all made a lot of accomplishments and been loyal to their familiy and friends all their lives; they've all had to work very hard to get where they are.

[Scandia]

I wonder if Splinter ever feels sorrow or even regret for putting so much responsibility one sibling?

Perhaps not so much for it in theory, but in practice sometimes it may have backfired. In the NT Leo has been hit the hardest and has shell shock (and I did not have to see the damaged shell for me to know that Leo was suffering from PTSD). This has caused him to totally disintegrate and go into his shadow- but Splinter does do the right thing and successfully gets Leo to go back to being his usual self. In the movie, Leo does still feel like a failure, even though nothing bad happened to him nor did he do anything he regrets. Though Leo does not seem to be concerned with image or what people think about him, he certainly wants to be perfect and keep being the best.

Leo is hard enough on himself as is. Imagine with the responsibility he has upon his shoulders. I wonder if he thinks at times that Splinter likes or even loves Donatello better, even though Donnie is nowhere near as close to Splinter. After all, while Donatello is a good student and gives Splinter few if any problems, he does not have the kind of responsibility that Leo has. Granted, Leo has not been shown complaining about his responsibility- though I am sure he would dislike it if he got blamed whenever Mikey and Raph caused trouble.

[triplexxx]

But even with his unofficial leadership position, it doesn't make his responsibilities for the family anywhere close to being unique. His main objective is to look out for his brothers, as is Raphael's, Donatello's, and Michaelangelo's main objective as well. Splinter should love every son equally and have equal respect for every son and be willing to hold each of them responsible for their own wrongdoings; if he can't do that, then he should feel regret and be very ashamed of himself.

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

But even with his unofficial leadership position, it doesn't make his responsibilities for the family anywhere close to being unique. His main objective is to look out for his brothers, as is Raphael's, Donatello's, and Michaelangelo's main objective as well. Splinter should love every son equally and have equal respect for every son and be willing to hold each of them responsible for their own wrongdoings; if he can't do that, then he should feel regret and be very ashamed of himself.

Splinter does love his sons equally, and he does hold each of them responsible for they're actions. But as leader AND older brother, more is expected out of Leonardo, it's his duty to watch after his younger brothers. And if one screws up on his watch, even if it isn't his fault, he should still step up and take some responsibility, that's what being a good leader is about.

You just hate Splinter.

[triplexxx]

Splinter does love his sons equally, and he does hold each of them responsible for they're actions. But as leader AND older brother, more is expected out of Leonardo, it's his duty to watch after his younger brothers.
Yes, I know it's Leonardo's duty to look after his brothers. My point is: it's also the duty of Raphael, Donatello, and Michaelangelo as well. And yes, he should take some accountability as leader if it's on his watch, which it isn't always, but if one of them is the one that screws up, they should be held more accountable.
By holding the person who made the mistake the most responsible for that mistake, it enables the person who made the mistake to learn from it, making it less likely to happen in the future.
You just hate Splinter.
Well, to be frank about it; maybe I do in certain ways. But I feel I've got good reason at times. For one thing, his sons continuously risk their lives for innocent people who care nothing for them, each other, and for his vendetta, trying to live honorably just like he taught them, and I don't hear to often from him a "congratulations, you did well, I should give you something or do something for you for all your efforts". It's always, "wake up, get back to training immediately" or "they're just getting into trouble as usual". That's the impression he usually leaves.

Yes at times, the turtles deserve it because they all make mistakes and he has to keep them in shape. But none of them ever did anything "horrible" in their lives; they've never killed any innocent people and they've never gotten any of their family or friends killed. And all the positives all four of them have wrought with their lives far outweigh the negatives they've wrought, so any mistakes they've all made, they've all paid for them and then some. I honestly do think he could show them at least an inch more gratitude, I mean considering nobody else does and that they never blame him for anything that goes wrong even though he makes mistakes too.

[Sonic x 20]

I also love how each of the turtles are not perfect and have some flaws as well. It shows that they still have alot more about them that we don't know about and what we can relate to them with. I love Leo as well and surely, he has the most responsibility out of he and his brothers seeing that he's the oldest and he's the leader. I also do agree that Master Splinter expects alot out of him as well as a leader and an older brother and Leo tries very hard to succeed at what he does too. 8) 8)

[ThemanthatwouldbeRaphael]

Yes, I know it's Leonardo's duty to look after his brothers. My point is: it's also the duty of Raphael, Donatello, and Michaelangelo as well. And yes, he should take some accountability as leader if it's on his watch, which it isn't always, but if one of them is the one that screws up, they should be held more accountable.
By holding the person who made the mistake the most responsible for that mistake, it enables the person who made the mistake to learn from it, making it less likely to happen in the future.

They all take responsibility for they're individual actions, Leo doesn't automatically get the blame. Yes, the Turtles look out for each other, and older sibligns look out for younger siblings, but I'm saying Leo is the oldest brother(kind of), so that means he's got three younger siblings he's gotta be responsible for. That doesn't mean he should be the only one responsible though, he pointed that out in the new movie.

Well, to be frank about it; maybe I do in certain ways. But I feel I've got good reason at times. For one thing, his sons continuously risk their lives for innocent people who care nothing for them, each other, and for his vendetta, trying to live honorably just like he taught them, and I don't hear to often from him a "congratulations, you did well, I should give you something or do something for you for all your efforts". It's always, "wake up, get back to training immediately" or "they're just getting into trouble as usual". That's the impression he usually leaves.

What, they should get a cookie everytime they do something good. That's not how the world works. Splinter is proud of his sons, he tells them that. But to give them something everytime they do good, other than a "well done" or the occasional hug, would be sending the wrong message, to do good just so you can get something. It would be spoiling them. They do good, he tells them they do good, then they go back to training so the can do more good. He never overworks them, and he respects them just as much as they do him.

But let's not go through this again.

[BigApple3AM]

I think you're confusing leadership with personal responsibility. An example would be Raphael storming out really frustrated. Sure Mikey and Donny SHOULD do something, but they don't. They eat porkrinds. Leo has the responisbility of the group, you have to remember these guys are young. They're all going to look out for each other, but they're not perfect, and that's why you have to have the most responsible in charge and they will follow if they believe that he truly does know what's best for the group.

You're trying to suggest they're all leaders, they're not. They're definitely all individuals, and often times another brother will stick their hide out and do something incredible and beneficial for the group, but when thinks get rough and they're getting lost they have to look to the most mature to take care of things. Besides, not everyone wants to be a leader, I'm definitely sure Mikey and Don would rather do the things they like rather than focus all their time and energy on the family.

Or at least, that's my opinion on the matter.


Oh and regarding Splinter, well the turtles would be directionless without him. Yeah in the early mirage books he mostly wants vengence and it's sort of odd. But in different mediums like the latest movie Splinter's motives aren't really entirely clear, but I think most of all he wants his family to become stronger. Raphael is the one risking his life, Splinter never asked him to do that. He literally rescued the turtles from either becoming a science project at some government research lab or becoming sewer slime or something. He trains them as he was trained in a way, it's all he knows. It makes them strong, and realistically if you're a mutated freak you have to be strong emotionally and physically.

[triplexxx]

What, they should get a cookie everytime they do something good. That's not how the world works. Splinter is proud of his sons, he tells them that.
I didn't mean literally "give them something", that was just a figure of speech, sorry for the misleading. And yes, I've heard him say he's proud of them before; I just think maybe he doesn't say it as often as he should, and a hug, as you mentioned, would be a bit more expressive, especially in those couple times they saved practically the whole planet, but I hardly see him do that either, most of the time it's just a hand on the shoulder, which is all right I guess.
An example would be Raphael storming out really frustrated. Sure Mikey and Donny SHOULD do something, but they don't.
Like what? Go out and defend him from the Foot, whom nobody has any clue that they're even there? Sometimes, a few minutes of alone time is therapeutic and for someone's own good.
I think you're confusing leadership with personal responsibility.
You're trying to suggest they're all leaders, they're not.
I'm not confusing anything with anything; personal responsibilty was what I was refering to. I'm simply stating that the responsibility of protecting the family belongs equally to every turtle, always has and always will, regardless of their position on the team, and they all do a good job at it.
I'm definitely sure Mikey and Don would rather do the things they like rather than focus all their time and energy on the family.
Well though their lives are in danger more often than many families, the family doesn't need looking after 24 hours a day and each member of the family is capable of taking care of himself, but whenever they do need looking after, Donatello and Michaelangelo willingly participate, that's what pretty much all of Donatello's work is about, family's/friends' protection and comfort.
Bottom line: ALL 4 TURTLES ARE EQUALLY DEDICATED TO PROTECTING THEIR FAMILY.

And sorry about what I said of splinter, I exaggerated on that one. The vengeance thing was always something I had against him, and it's at least been hinted at in pretty much every TMNT medium, save for the new movie since Shredder's already dead there. You're right, he just wants what's best for the family, but personally if I was him, I'd have just done the job myself.

[Time Mistress]

I haven't had a chance to comment on Leo yet, so here I go.

Although Mike and Raph are my favorite turtles, my own personality is a good Leo/Mike combo (something that happens when you're an only child if the birth order books are to be believed).;)

I can relate to Leo's drive for perfection, his high standards, and atempts at self dicipline be it getting good grades and being a teacher pet or whatever. Because I'm also like Mike I have a tendancy to fail in that dicipline and be spoiled rotten, but I do keep striving for that perfection and can be quick to judge people who don't meet my high standards sometimes. I know also like Leo what it is to be close to your parents and the burdon you can place on yourself to please them, though they love you just the way you are.

I think Leo can be too often seen sometimes as "Mr. Perfect." They don't realize that Leo can get angry too, part of it comes from the burdon he places on himself, but also from the empathy he needs to develop to be a good leader. If anything, Mike is the best of the 4 at empathy so I think that is a good lesson Mike can teach Leo just as Leo teaches Mike the lesson of dicipline.

One thing I love about the 2k3 Leo is just how well-rounded he is, same with the new movie. Rarely have I liked Leo more than in these new incarnations.

Another interesting thing that strikes me about 2k3 Leo is his obsession with bushido. Of course the Turles would be taught to be honorable, but bushido was really the code of the samurai and not the ninja. And Leo is ninja. I wonder if Leo's desire to sometimes act more samurai, particluarly in season 1 might be a reflection/expression of his own private desires to be out in the open among humans instead of in the shadows as a mutant and ninja.

[triplexxx]

Another interesting thing that strikes me about 2k3 Leo is his obsession with bushido. Of course the Turles would be taught to be honorable, but bushido was really the code of the samurai and not the ninja. And Leo is ninja. I wonder if Leo's desire to sometimes act more samurai, particluarly in season 1 might be a reflection/expression of his own private desires to be out in the open among humans instead of in the shadows as a mutant and ninja.
Well, all the turtles have shown a desire to live among humans from time to time. But how exactly does the desire to live among humans relate to the desire to be samurai?

I think the version of Bushido the Splinter taught the turtles to live by is Modern Bushido, which I think any warriors/martial-artists in any field can follow. An excerpt of it from Wikipedia:
The warrior protects and defends because he realizes the value of others. He knows that they are essential to society and, in his gift of service, recognizes and values theirs... take the extra moment in dark parking lots at night to make sure that a woman gets into her car safely before leaving yourself. Daily involvement in acts such as these are as much a part of training as time spent in the dojo, and indeed should be the reason for that time spent training... When faced with a woman or child in a situation in which they are vulnerable, there are two types of men: those who would offer succor and aid, and those who would prey upon them. And in modern society, there is another loathsome breed who would totally ignore their plight!
This being a near perfect description of how the turtles live their lives; they're the men who offer succor and aid to the innocent citizens of NYC and anywhere else they've fought. I don't see how this should be restricted to classifying only samurais.

[Scandia]

the Turles would be taught to be honorable, but bushido was really the code of the samurai and not the ninja. And Leo is ninja. I wonder if Leo's desire to sometimes act more samurai, particluarly in season 1 might be a reflection/expression of his own private desires to be out in the open among humans instead of in the shadows as a mutant and ninja.

This could be a possibility. And also that by nature and nurture, Leo is a very honorable Turtle. He wants to be heroic. Not just save and protect others like Raph does- that alone is not enough for Leo. He wants to be heroic because he's so lionhearted. Hence his obsession with perfection. I wonder if he seeks a reward or if he just seeks it for its own sake.

And I do not think that Leo is completely unempathetic. He may be disciplined and strict- but he is not cruel in any way.

[Time Mistress]

No, not cruel of course, but empathy in the way that Mike is patient and will listen to Raph when Leo sometimes lets his own standards that he places on Raph get in the way of understanding his brother that's all.

As for the ninja/samurai thing. I was thinking about that lionheart desire like you said. I think Leo dreams of being a hero and wants to perform heroic deeds in the open and be loved by the people for it. A ninja must operate in the shadows and never be allowed to receive that recognition, being a samurai would allow Leo that recognition (well, provided he weren't a mutant turtle to boot) but these are Leo's dreams and fantasies we're talking about.

It just interests me to wonder how Leo views his connection to the outside world since I think he's the Turtle we have the least info on in that matter. Mike relates to it through media, his writing, and his desire to almost be human himself. Raph relates to it by spending the most time above ground in his one man war on crime, always on the fringes of human society but always an outcast from it. Don relates through techology, the most connected to the human world in a way - phone lines, internet, but always hidden by the distance of machines. So how do you think Leo relates? I think he relates in his heroic fantasies and in trying to gain the most balanced perspective on humanity so he can protect his family.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Take Me to Your Leader is an interesting episode of the 1987 TMNT cartoon where the other guys have to fight Shredder, Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady without any help from Leonardo, who left the other guys until he finds them again.

[jenna]

Take Me to Your Leader is an interesting episode of the 1987 TMNT cartoon where the other guys have to fight Shredder, Krang, Bebop and Rocksteady without any help from Leonardo, who left the other guys until he finds them again.

Take me to your Leader is one in the many stories which focuses on Leonardo's tendency to doubt himself and show that when he loses confidence he has an absolute crisis - similar idea to series 4 in 2k3. it also reveals the effect on the group when Leo goes through one of these cycles. Fortunately he normally pulls himself out of it and returns to them a better leader and a stronger person. That's one of the differences between leo and raph: Leo pulls himself out of his depressions whereas Raph needs someone else to pull him out of his.

[triplexxx]

This could be a possibility. And also that by nature and nurture, Leo is a very honorable Turtle. He wants to be heroic. Not just save and protect others like Raph does- that alone is not enough for Leo. He wants to be heroic because he's so lionhearted
I don't see where you're coming from. I mean, saving and protecting others, that is heroic. Being an actual hero is something all the TMNT have already accomplished countless times.

[Scandia]

Maybe heroic is not the right term. While Raph wants to appear badass and scary and tough, Leo wants to be more of a paladin who only thinks and does good.

Perhaps his fantasies do allow him to connect.

Or perhaps he connects through his closeness to Splinter and thus internalizing all the stories about Hamato Yoshi, Tang Shen, and the Foot.

[triplexxx]

Maybe heroic is not the right term. While Raph wants to appear badass and scary and tough, Leo wants to be more of a paladin who only thinks and does good.

Perhaps his fantasies do allow him to connect.

Or perhaps he connects through his closeness to Splinter and thus internalizing all the stories about Hamato Yoshi, Tang Shen, and the Foot.
Well, they all have the desire to do good and be righteous, that's how Splinter raised him and that's how they've acted all their lives. So that's nothing unique.

[BigApple3AM]

And sorry about what I said of splinter, I exaggerated on that one. The vengeance thing was always something I had against him, and it's at least been hinted at in pretty much every TMNT medium, save for the new movie since Shredder's already dead there. You're right, he just wants what's best for the family, but personally if I was him, I'd have just done the job myself.

Except the original movie he is kidnapped but when he's free he does take care of shredder himself. There really is no vengeance in the first movie, or even in the second, they sort of took it out to make Splinter more likable. Ironically the movies are the only place where Splinter technically couldn't be active due to the suit, yet he does more in it than he has in the comics. But even so the turtles are teenagers and he's really old, I personally wouldn't risk their lives but if the foot are terrorizing New York and they feel up to taking Shredhead down, why stop them. I'd think they'd get bored and would willingly take any mission just to get out of the sewers :D

But you do have an arguement for the original first issue Splinter. He sort of was hung up on revenge, but I thought that sort of added to the dark mood of the comics. No one is perfect, he's flawed but at least he's on the side of good.

[Scandia]

I noticed that at the end of "Prodigal Son", when Leo is facing Splinter, he is doing the Child pose from yoga. I wonder if any of the other Turtles have been shown doing it. It is not just plain kneeling or sitting. It is almost as if it stated "You are my father, I am your child". Whoever wrote/animated/directed sure knew about this yoga aspect. It was a very sweet detail- not to mention cool.

And I LOVED it when Karai said "Leonardo, son of Splinter" earlier in that episode. It's like even outsiders acknowledge that the TMNT are a family. As much as I love the OT, it sometimes felt like they were soldiers rooming together in barracks. But out of all the Turtles, Splinter called Leo "my son" in the OT at least once.

[triplexxx]

Well there were instances in the OT where he did refer to them as sons, mentioned in previous threads, can't remember which, but I do remember the first being in "Shredder & Splintered" where he called them "sons" before saving them from the anti-mutagen ray gun.

And all the turtles did bow to Splinter while in the lotus position in Shredder Strikes 1 if that means anything beyond mere respect.

[Scandia]

I'm such a TMNT geek that I just watched "Shredder and Splintered" to see where Splinter says that. He did not...but there are other references in the OT. And it still shows that Splinter cares for his Turtles very much.

And I just also watched "The Shredder Strikes Part I" to see the Lotus pose. That one I am just interpreting as the Turtles sitting down to listen to Splinter. Though I recognized the pose, it did not strike me as anything out of the ordinary. They do bow to him at the end and he bows back when he sends them to strike against Shredder. But it was the Child pose in the other episode that truly stood out- it is not an usual sitting/kneeling pose. It is what you do as a counterpose or to relax and stretch after combat or tougher poses. So in a way he was also back home and in complete and total trust of his master.

I like to overanalyze.

[triplexxx]

Just to correct myself, it was actually the 2nd OT episode "Enter the Shredder" where it was the first time he called them "my sons".

[Scandia]

Thank you! You bet I'll be watching it once I get home from work.

And in which episode of the 2k3 toon did Leo refer to Splinter as his father? I only know of two instances of Raph doing so.

[Masked Ninja]

I'm pretty fuzzy on the second season (and the second half of the first) but I know that Leo addresses Splinter as "father" in Exodus pt. 2, and probably in The Ancient One, too. He seems to be the one that calls Splinter "father" to his face most often, while the others call him "father" and "dad" mostly in third person and usually while he's not around. (though as I think about it, I'm not sure if Don has... again, fuzzy...)

I should probably say some stuff about Leo... :trazz: I'll get back to y'all on that.