How did Eastman and Laird feel?

[Coola Yagami]

I know they needed money at the time.. and without the old toon they probably wouldn't have built Mirage studios or have the TMNT take off in a way that it's 2007 and we're still talking about them....

But at the time.. how did they feel? They created these 4 totally kick-ass hardcore ninjas with adventures that sound like a total acid trip (I mean within the first 10 issues they were already facing Triceratons and time traveling with Rennet).... and now that they allowed a cartoon show, their characters became cute and cuddly pizza addicts and Mikey was turned into a stoner surfer, and the evil Shredder that died in the first issue was suddenly turned into the Saturday morning cartoon villian bent on conquering the world and having the usual incompetent minions to yell at, as well as being the main villian each and every single time. Of the characters they created, Leatherhead became a crazy canjun gator, Casey a little TOO obssesed with crimefighting to the point he'd kill you for littering... Rat King a fanatic that tosses exploding soda pop cans, Baxter into a fly-brained idiot and April into a damsel in distress where news reporting is her entire LIFE. What did they think of all this? Were they happy, upset or didn't care? Were they glad/upset that certain characters like the Triceratons, Rennet, Savanti and others never made it to the show (I know the Triceratons did but that was like seasons later). How about the minor differences like Splinter's origin, or the letters on the turtles' belts and the different bandana colors. Who decided what their new colors would be, them or the cartoon studio? These colors have stayed with the turtles all their televised lives, even the 2K3 cartoon and the new movie, and only true comic book fans would know that Leo, Mike and Don also wore red in the original comics and STILL DO in Volume 4.

I'm askin this cause I just can't imagine how I'd feel if I made some kick-ass series of superheroes or whatever and watch it be turned into some kiddy show where my once bad-ass creations would be addicted to tacos and say catchphrases every 2 seconds.

[MoreCowbell5263]

On the one hand, they were entirely different than their comic counterparts, but on the other, it really did put Ninja Turtles on the map. The first movie was based on the comics mostly, but I remember the title when you see it in the movie is written out like it is in the OT, so apparently most of the people they were trying to appeal to with the original movie were youngsters watching the cartoon. I don't know how I'd feel, it would suck if my characters were changed, but I like kids so I wouldn't mind if something I created made kids happy, but I'm not Laird and Eastman.

[KROW]

I don't know how Eastman felt, though on a guess I'd say he was probably cool with it. However, I think Laird mentioned his feelings in a letters page from one of the Volume 4 issues. I don't remember what he said, but I believe he said something like wishing he had more involvement in the production.

As for me, I would feel fine with it as long as the powers-that-be-at-whatever-company didn't crap all over my baby just to sell toys and candy. If that were the case, then I'd take it to another company with a better understanding and a more mature demographic.

This kind of reminds me of how Todd McFarlane was approached about making the Spawn cartoon. He was asked by some industry to take his character into a Saturday morning environment. Todd immediately declined when he heard that they were going to give him a talking dog sidekick and such. He took it to HBO, added swearing and boobs, and made it a hit.

Then there was the movie... which had Spawn hanging around a dog... I guess Todd was more focused on Mark McGwire's homerun balls at the time.

But that's way far off-topic.

[Blithe]

I can't speak for how they felt, but there's no denying there are some major differences between the original Mirage and the OT. Maybe it was difficult at first to see such a different spin on their original creation, but it helps to appreciate each TMNT universe for what it is, whether we're talking OT, NT, Mirage, Archie, Image or whatever. Ultimately, no one is making them or us choose amongst one or the other nor do we have to try and find a way to force them all into one solitary and cohesive thing.

If they resented the success or reinvention of the turtles in the OT, they can probably take heart in the fact that they were able to continue with the Mirage. It's not like they suddenly had to make a choice of either/or.

Really, they just had to deal with a newly created extended family of TMNT universes. They can continue their vision and hey, maybe even have a little fun seeing slight variations and stories amongst all the different TMNT interpretations. At the end of the day, whichever they prefer, they still have.

[ToTheNines]

and only true comic book fans would know that Leo, Mike and Don also wore red in the original comics and STILL DO in Volume 4.

Definantly not true dude, I like comics and buy atleast one everytime i go to the shop (I only have one near me so I don't go that often) but I wouldn't call myself a "true comic book fan" and I certainly know the turltes all had red bandanas.

Anyways, I'm sure they felt good. They got rich off the cartoon and still got to make what they saw as the true TMNT... best of both worlds, ya know?

[Coola Yagami]

yeah, i guess i would feel better if I was still allowed to continue with my vision despite the cartoon/movie/other source of media. I wonder how fans of the original comic felt when they heard a cartoon was coming and then saw it turned into kiddy fare.

I remember when I saw those first 5 eps of the turtles, I was blown away and was wishing they'd turn it into an actual series. When the series was announced it was the best day in my life. Sure it got sillier but as a kid I didn't mind. When the movie came out, we all loved it. sure the plot was different, as it was based on a then-unknown-to-most-of-us comic, but it had enough of the characters like the Turtles, Splinter, Shredder, April, Casey and the Foot, and the turtles still talked like surfers and still had the pizza fetish so we still ate it up. Didn't hurt that we were finally seeing 'real life' turtles kickin all sorts of ass.

I don't remember a dog in the Spawn movie..?

[Spawn Guy]

There was. Hean away from the family. Viloator threatens him right before he beats the **** out of Spawn. He actually says something to the effect of "Get the hell away from my dog."

I think this would work better if we hunted down an interview or something. Maybe even quoted that segment from the letter page.

[Coola Yagami]

yeah, i was hoping some of you guys had that volume 4 page...

[Roseangelo]

Definantly not true dude, I like comics and buy atleast one everytime i go to the shop (I only have one near me so I don't go that often) but I wouldn't call myself a "true comic book fan" and I certainly know the turltes all had red bandanas.

I think the statement would be better phrased by saying that informed TMNT fans know that they did and do wear only red bandannas in the Mirage comic books. The distinction being only that the person is actually a fan and not just Joe Blow walking down the street who watched the OT when he was 10 years old.

I don't like walking into the muddy water of what does or doesn't define a true fan of anything, because then you're entering into competition and I don't know how you can define what makes one person a bigger fan of something than someone else. Everyone expresses their fandom differently, but I don't believe there's any better (or best) way.

[Coola Yagami]

Sorry, I shouldn't have used the term true fan. I myself didn't know about the tmnt comics until I found a City at War comic in either 92 or 93, I forgot. Then I was like 'holy ****, that TMNT NES cover was actually a cover for one of the old comics!!!' and I read up on enough summaries on the old comics to realize that the new show was taking stories from it.

yeah, more informed fan sounds better. but either way, you get the idea. How would fans of the old comics react when they heard their fave comic was coming to tv as a cartoon and saw that one?

[Spawn Guy]

"Joe Blow"?

How incredibly controversial your American colloquialisms are.

[weredog]

Macfarlane's a fool. Talking dogs make EVERYTHING better.

I don't know how I'd feel, and as someone who once aspired to draw comics and even had a whole universe planned out I've given it a lot of thought. On the one hand, the show made em' a lot of money and cemented the TMNT's place in pop culture history. On the other it was far removed from the original product, and it did water it down a lot. I can't imagine what I'd do in their situation. The stuff I drew would have to be toned down a lot to make it on Saturday Mornings. And I can't see my character working well with the kind of constraints generally placed on saturday morning cartoons. But the temptation would be pretty great.
It'd be a very hard decision to make.

[BigApple3AM]

It was a cartoon in every sense of the word. In the 1980's there really wasn't anything dark and gritty in the cartoon world. I'm sure they both knew this going into the deal. That said if Mr. Laird dislikes the old cartoon I'm sure it's more of an ego thing than anything else. They made drastic changes to his artistic vision, which sends the message that they didn't think the original was good enough or that they can do better (changes not to make it more lighthearted or kid friendly, but the more unecessary changes like splinter a human first, etc...). I can't honestly say what either man is thinking, but I'm sure neither is cursing up and down that they didn't uphold their artistic integrity for a cartoon made at a time when cartoons weren't anything more than kiddy fodder to sell plastic toys and sugary cereals. Anything more violent would have sent the already complaining parent activists into an early grave with heart attacks.

Besides they have free reign on the current cartoon. The old one gave them a built in fanbase and tons of cash. If anything they're probaby really thankful it all turned out that way. One little missed oppurtunity could have meant no turtles, then or now. If you're not a fan of the old cartoon you can still admit it could have been a thousand times worse.

[weredog]

It could have easily been worse. Remember it was made in the decade where garbage like "Little Clowns from Happytown" was allowed on the airwaves. and as far as I'm concerned it's a pretty good cartoon overall. I do think it would have been more interesting had they stuck a little closer to the source though.

[johnnyblaze]

from what I have read over the years Laird was never 100% happy with the OT because, let's face it, it wasn't their original vision for the characters (I actually think with the newer versions of the characters he and his crew hit a nice balance between the original vision and the turtles everyone is familiar with but your miles may vary on that one) but he did appreciate the opportunities it allowed him and Kevin. I imagine if he had a real big issue with the OT he would have disowned it like he did The Next Mutation

[ToTheNines]

I'm sure E&L had to "OK" alot of things before they got started with the show, like the bandanas. I like the different colors because it's easy to tell them apart and they match their personalities, and yet I like the all red because it shows how the turltes are all part of the same clan, so to speak. But they knew it was to be a kids show, and kids would have never figured out who was who if not for the color coded bandanas.

[ZariusTwo]

In the 1980's there really wasn't anything dark and gritty in the cartoon world.

He-Man
Galaxy Rangers
She-Ra
Transformers (select arcs, episodes, the movie, and post-movie continuity)
GI Joe
Centurions
Spiral Zone

Suuuuurre there was'nt.

[TristanHuwJones]

In retrospect those cartoons definitely have darker, gritty elements to them, but they didn't exactly impact the kids at all. MOTU was all in good fun as a kid, as was Transformers (though there were some intense episodes after the film), GI JOE was just action adventure... all those shows I watched, but it's only in retrospect that you see and latch onto the darker elements. I think they go pretty much over the kids' heads when they watch them, unless they're as explicit as that Transformers ep where they discover the T'formers Crypt floating in space post-movie.

[Spitfire]

He-Man
Galaxy Rangers
She-Ra
Transformers (select arcs, episodes, the movie, and post-movie continuity)
GI Joe
Centurions
Spiral Zone

Suuuuurre there was'nt.

Uh enlighten me on what was at all remotely dark about He-man and She-Ra. Possibly the biggest of he toy ad toons from that time period. Even worse the animation is some of the worst I've ever seen with repeated use of stock footage and over all horrid stories. I hardly remember seeing anything "dark" about them.

Batman is dark, of those shows I know of you listed I hardly see that. In fact there's really not that many "dark" cartoons. That words so tossed around these days it sickens me.

[ZariusTwo]

Uh enlighten me on what was at all remotely dark about He-man and She-Ra. Possibly the biggest of he toy ad toons from that time period

Much of MOTU had plenty of darker moments, future Beast Wars, B5, and Batman: TAS writers worked on that show, as they did She-Ra.

"The Problem With Power" had Skeletor manipulating He-Man into thinking he had KILLED a guy and "Teela's Quest" centered on Teela's origins (written by Paul Dini) that was unheard of for typical syndication back then. "Reign of the Monster" involved satanic rituals bringing to life a demon, that sort of stuff.

She-Ra took the concept of heroes as the underdog in a rebellion and had better storylines, albiet in a much lighter atmosphere, but there were a few, handled exclusivley by Strazenski, Bruce Timm, and others. "Horrid stories" my ass.

Not to mention there was barely anything "light" about some of the locations in He-Man. Yeah, you had your Trollas and royal palace, but that was it. Everything else was very dark, gravel pathed, photogenic.

He-Man and She-Ra rose above their intents of selling toys despite their limitations.

In retrospect those cartoons definitely have darker, gritty elements to them, but they didn't exactly impact the kids at all.

I'd love to know how you managed to get into the head of every child's mind on Earth to come up with that catergorization, but since I beleive such a feat impossible, I'll go with my own experiances and ones of others I know shared them. They don't go over ANYONE's heads, children are'nt that passive in the attention department

[TristanHuwJones]

I wasn't implying that I was in the heads of every kid; I just meant that through conversations I've had with friends in viewing them since, a lot of us were surprised at what DID go over our heads. I had no idea what a Satanic ritual was when I was watching MOTU - to me they were just doing what had to be done in the show. The kids might not be passive to what's going on, but that doesn't mean they know particular things it might be making reference to, or understand the use of the reference because they don't necessarily have the exposure or knowledge required to fully comprehend what truly is going on at those 'darker' moments.

Those shows certainly exposed kids to some pretty dark stuff, but that doesn't mean they could grasp those things totally. I watch The Real Ghostbusters a heck of a lot, and there's possibly more in that show than any other show around at the time that goes totally over kids' heads. Ask a six year old who Lovecraft is, who the Four Horsement of the Apocalypse are, what Ragnarok or the Necronomicon is... when the Grundel episode aired, I had no idea what a parasite was, but I knew it was bad and it made the Grundel pretty damn scary. All the rituals, demons, mythology, just about everything in that show was based on real texts, traditions, etc. but I didn't know that when I was watching it. To me it was just what those characters did in that particular world to make X happen. Of course, I'm a little older now and I hope a fair bit wiser, and am amazed at how in depth these shows were!

I wasn't talking down to you Zarius, I just made a comment with a generalisation - I'll remember not to from now on - but if you're going to be so literal about what people say then you probably shouldn't say things like "it didn't go over ANYONE's heads" in the same paragraph, because even though I wasn't passive to what was going on, the reality of the concept was, for me and a number of other people, beyond total understanding at the time, and there for over A NUMBER of heads.

[VaughnMichael]

Allot of it sure as hell went over my head as a kid heck even some toons in passing years where really dark and I didn't even notice to buying them on dvd such as the power puff girls such scenes as Him (the devil) licking the prof's face I mean I seriously couldnt believe they got away with that one.
And blood lots of blood I find it funny how the power puff girls can get away with blood in their show but we get not one drop in tmnt. But I guess that was a differnt time frame and things are allot differnt at this point we've sort of stoped moving forward.

[TristanHuwJones]

I think John K. Ren and Stimpy is another one. There's a heck of a lot going on in that show that is simply too many years ahead of the Saturday morning demographic, but it works on the kids' level as well. I recently revisited Teknoman and was genuinely surprised by some of the intensity of the violence - even taking the translation and potential editing that would have taken place for localisation. I remember it being awesome when I watched it with breakfast, but not THAT awesome!

[Roseangelo]

Don't forget all of the cute 80s girly cartoons that turned dark the moment they became movies. 8) Care Bears and Rainbow Brite both had dark movies and I *think* My Little Ponies, too, but I was never into them enough to remember that movie very well. But the green talking head in the book in the Care Bears movie scarred me for life.

[VaughnMichael]

Don't forget all of the cute 80s girly cartoons that turned dark the moment they became movies. 8) Care Bears and Rainbow Brite both had dark movies and I *think* My Little Ponies, too, but I was never into them enough to remember that movie very well. But the green talking head in the book in the Care Bears movie scarred me for life.
The my little pony movie was very very dark.

[Coola Yagami]

True... I remember the Ghostbusters episode where Winston sold his soul to the devil... and he actually said the phrase too with no sugarcoating.

[Janus Prospero]

Back to the OP’s question, I wanted to post this, which might shed some light on the question at hand. This took a bit of digging to find, but at last I found this letter from Peter and Kevin in the back of Return to New York, Book 1. I believe this came about because one of the letters they had received and posted in a previous book dealt with a dad buying some of the comics for his kid, only to find it overtly violent. Anyway, back on topic, here is the letter in RtNY, Book 1 (emphasis is my own):

Originally this was to have been a long-winded, over-explained editorial about a subject we have had on our minds for quite some time now.
Labeling.
Do we have an obligation to our audience, or to ourselves as creators?
We feel we have both.
What do you do when it appears you’ve developed two audiences – one younger, for the wacky animated show and the toys, and one older, for the original source material?
What if those two audiences begin to merge? Younger readers, looking for the wacky comics, buy the grittier originals, and say, “Gross!”
An older reader, looking for the original, buys the wacky comics version, and says, “Yuck!”
What do you do?
Nothing.
Let them stand on their own. We’ve allowed the wacky side to happen, and enjoy it very much. All the while, though, we’ve kept the originals very much ours – forty pages of what we enjoy and want to see in our books, whether it comes from our own hands or from those of the talented people we work with. We’ve never carried a label on our books, and we’re not about to start. In fact, we’ve only considered it now because of the new, younger audience for the turtles.
It’s been hard coming to a firm decision not to label. We’ve done a lot of soul-searching, examining our own work and motives. Further complicating matters is the issue of creative freedom, which needs to be balanced with creative responsibility.
Ultimately we decided that there is nothing in our work on the turtles that should be hidden from even the youngest of our reader. It’s a subjective decision, and others with different standards of what is right and what is wrong might disagree with us, and that’s their right. . . just as it is ours to publish what we think is fit to print.

~ Kevin & Peter
[ I’m assuming it is OK to post this and hope it doesn’t infringe on some sort of copyright. If any of the admins find issue with this, feel free to PM me and I’ll just paraphrase the above and instead post a brief synopsis. ]

So, as you can see, I don’t think Kevin or Peter collectively had any huge issues with the original toon at the outset (at least not publicly). At the printing of this letter the original toon had only been through two seasons.

[jenna]

But the green talking head in the book in the Care Bears movie scarred me for life.

Me too! Oh my God it frightened me so much as a child - I'm not sure I've recovered, as it just sent a shiver up my spine when I read your post!!

The my little pony movie was very very dark.

It was: I still have nightmares about the smooze!

[Coola Yagami]

Back to the OP’s question, I wanted to post this, which might shed some light on the question at hand. This took a bit of digging to find, but at last I found this letter from Peter and Kevin in the back of Return to New York, Book 1. I believe this came about because one of the letters they had received and posted in a previous book dealt with a dad buying some of the comics for his kid, only to find it overtly violent. Anyway, back on topic, here is the letter in RtNY, Book 1 (emphasis is my own):


[ I’m assuming it is OK to post this and hope it doesn’t infringe on some sort of copyright. If any of the admins find issue with this, feel free to PM me and I’ll just paraphrase the above and instead post a brief synopsis. ]

So, as you can see, I don’t think Kevin or Peter collectively had any huge issues with the original toon at the outset (at least not publicly). At the printing of this letter the original toon had only been through two seasons.

It's also cool that they decided to keep going with their vision instead of following the show/ Can you imagine the pissed off fans if the comics went from the TMNT fighting Karai and the Shredder Elite to.. 4 wisecrackin pizza fanatics stopping yet another plot from Shredder and Krang from rising the Technodrome?

[Splinter's Iroonna]

I'm sure E&L had to "OK" alot of things before they got started with the show, like the bandanas. I like the different colors because it's easy to tell them apart and they match their personalities, and yet I like the all red because it shows how the turltes are all part of the same clan, so to speak. But they knew it was to be a kids show, and kids would have never figured out who was who if not for the color coded bandanas.


I remember that argument-- HOW can kids tell them apart UNLESS they wear the colors and have their initials on their belts? To which someone else responded something to the effect that "they each carry different weapons-- duh".

It always burns me up when the powers that be think kids are just plain dumb.



But yeah, I'd also forgotten that statement by Kevin and Peter. I guess that pretty much says it all.

[ToTheNines]

Well if you ask me, it was totally necessary for the OT because the artists really drawn the turtles with any difference at all (after a while the kids should catch on to the voices, but colors make it easier) Now the NT and recent movie they all have different skin tones, faces and skull shapes, but the colors aren't totally needed, but I guess everyone is used to them. As for the live action films, those were made for the OT kiddies, so why not go with color?

[SassyGal]

Don't forget all of the cute 80s girly cartoons that turned dark the moment they became movies. 8) Care Bears and Rainbow Brite both had dark movies and I *think* My Little Ponies, too, but I was never into them enough to remember that movie very well. But the green talking head in the book in the Care Bears movie scarred me for life.

OMG that is so true!! I cried when I saw the talking head in the book in the Care Bears movie!

It's also cool that they decided to keep going with their vision instead of following the show/ Can you imagine the pissed off fans if the comics went from the TMNT fighting Karai and the Shredder Elite to.. 4 wisecrackin pizza fanatics stopping yet another plot from Shredder and Krang from rising the Technodrome?

:lol: That is very true! I love the OT, but it just wouldn't work now, not after 2k3 set the new bar for TMNT

[ZariusTwo]

Yes...FF sure set the bar very high

Honestly, with the many homages, decisions, and ideas seen in the new series, it has'nt departed much from the original apart from the darker content. So it's "not working" is bulls*it. Laird simply does'nt want to repeat the same old thing, and that's more commendable.

Pretty sure more die-hard comic fans are pissed the TMNT thwart Baxter Stockman every five weeks over and over again, The Shredder coming back every two weeks, and waiting for the occasional comic adaptation every two years.

[VaughnMichael]

Pretty sure more die-hard comic fans are pissed the TMNT thwart Baxter Stockman every five weeks over and over again, The Shredder coming back every two weeks, and waiting for the occasional comic adaptation every two years.
Actully I happen to be one of those people which you can choose to believe me or not. Not like you care anyways but I'd much rather them not adapt the comics into episodes and keep coming up with new storys this is why I enjoyed Fas Forward so much and allot of the lost season as well.
The comics are so much better than what we got in 2k3 I mean don't get me wrong it was nice to see a few of my fave issues animated but they took allot of things and waterd them down. Which I'm sure they had to but thats not my point. I'm the sort of person who would rather see something done correctly or not done at all.
And you know now that I read back over what you posted I'm not sure if you're talking about 2k3 or the old toon since it sort of happens in both.
Quite frankly I like my tmnt worlds to be seperated I like my toon being the toon and my comics to be the comics.
And you know Fast Forward may not be the best thing we've ever had in Turtle land but it's most def. not the worst like I said before it's a breath of fresh air to allot of people because they where finally starting to get the humor thing down pretty well, they had new storys, and new characters just about every week and this is something that I really love about the Old toon making it top over any other animated incarnation of the turtles be it silly or not.