If Shredder had Raised the Turtles

[Blithe]

I was ruminating on this alternate reality for some reason last night. Getting past the initial idea that if Shredder had somehow come across these four little goo-covered turtles that he probably would have:

1. Kept on walking
2. Squished them
3. Brought them home for soup

I wondered how this would have changed the turtles as we know them. For one thing, they would hardly be “sons” in Shredder’s eyes and be more like investments. They would have a detached notion of what it meant to be apart of a family and I can’t see Shredder taking the time to educate them on anything but how to kill.

So how would that change the TMNT as we know them? For one, I think Michelangelo would be the most changed in this alternate reality. I can’t imagine he’d be able to maintain an optimistic and sunny disposition under these conditions. As for Raphael, this would really bring out his dark, angst-filled, inner dragon. Shredder may even favor him for his raw rage and aggression. However, I think Raphael would get himself killed all too quickly without anyone teaching him control or restraint.

Leo? I think he’d have the same focus and willingness to please, but so much of my perception of Leo is wrapped up in the philosophies he’s been immersed in by Splinter. It’s hard to picture who he would be without those principles guiding him.

As for Donatello, would all of his intellect go to waste? It could go either way. If Shredder recognized Don’s intellectual aptitude and decided to capitalize on it, we could have a mad scientist Don on our hands. Alternatively, if Shredder never noticed or cared, what would Don be like without any intellectual outlet?

In an atmosphere heavy with criminal tendencies and hate, would the turtles still bond as brothers? Without any support system and Shredder’s emphasis on the fact they were “freaks”, they could hate each other for being reflections of what they despise in themselves.

The concept interests me – all that nature v. nurture stuff. Has anyone else ever chewed on this?

[triplexxx]

"If Shredder had Raised the Turtles....."
Most likely, like Donatello said in Modern Love: Return of Nano, they'd be raised to be criminals instead of who they are.

[The Shelf]

Hmm, good topic. Honestly, I don't think any of their actual roles would change. They'd all be more evil and aggressive. I really don't think Raph would end up the leader. Shredder wouldn't favor him over Leo because I just can't see Shredder favoring that sort of rashness. Shredder may be evil, but he's no fool. Leo is far more in control of himself and his surroundings and is a natural leader. I think Shredder would see that and take advantage of it and maybe even admire it. Aside from that, if Leo was evil, I can't see him letting Raph best him. He'd recognize Raph's rashness for what it is and use it against him or allow Raph to vent his rage on people other than himself when they're on missions (ie, on innocent folk).

Don would become a mad scientist, no doubt about it. He'd essentially become another Baxter or perhaps even a rival of his within Shredder's organization.

I always have the hardest time judging Mike's character in these what-if scenarios because he's the one I associate with the least. I think Mike would become more sadistic; he'd have a pretty dark sense of humor. I think he might turn into the sort of guy who pulls legs off of bugs or torture animals or enemies that they capture just to vent the anger he builds up with Shredder since Shredder would probably be a very harsh teacher.

Really, I guess they'd be just like the dark turtles in Fast Forward only with a darker, more mature tone... and without the silly colored skin. Appearance-wise, they'd probably look more like Slash or the concept drawings of Kirby, with blades and rags all over them. I also doubt their weapons would all be the same. Leo and Raph would probably use the same weapons, but Don would probably use one of those staffs that has a blade on at least one end, and Mike would probably switch to that sickle-chain-and-ball weapon (can't remember what it's called).

[Matt]

I think Mikey would be the hardest one to predict, the complete opposite to him would be a goth type character, and I don't think I could imagine Shredder standing for that. Maybe Mikey would be the one that is closest to being pure evil, the one that Shredder really needs to keep an eye on.

I think Raph has the same irrationality that Beebop or Rocksteady has, and they drove Shredder round the bend. Granted he'd be alot smarter overall, but he would still mess things up occasionally. Unless Shredder can successfully nurture his temper and focus it, then I couldn't see Raph lasting long.

I don't think that Leo would change that much, he'd be very similar to Shredder, but only in terms of philosophies. I agree though that he wouldn't lose any focus or rationality, and would be Shredders' favourite student for that.

I don't think that Shredder would use Don in the way that he would use the other three. I reckon he'd keep Don by his side, helping him with using technology to aid his conquests, and use him in a similar way as to how Mong was used, however maybe not having such a strong bond as Leo, I'd put this down to Shredder being a ninja first and foremost. Whilst Leo I reckon would be his favourite student, I reckon that he would see more value in Donatello due to his intelligence. Don I reckon would be and feel more isolated from his brothers due to his talents, if they are nurtured.

I don't think that they would see themselves as freaks in a negative way. Shredder would probably install it into them that they are the next line in evolution, if he was to use them. I still reckon that the other three would bond, due to their loyalties to Shredder.

[odupianist]

Leo is far more in control of himself and his surroundings and is a natural leader. I think Shredder would see that and take advantage of it and maybe even admire it.

That's probably why Shredder contacted Leo in the NT. Or it oculd be cause Leo was outside lol.

I could see Don being more of a cross between Baxter and Bishop.

[jenna]

I think Mike would be the most easily corrupted - no bad comment on Mikey's personality here, just that he tends to idolise his role models and would be easily swayed by The Shredder.

The other three I'm not so sure about. I can imagine Don holding some sort of loyalty to The Shredder as his "father" but would suffer conflict about it, seeing the devastation caused by him. He would probably retreat into his own world even moreso and become completely obsessed with his technological world.

Raph I think could go one of two ways: to be completely unleashed on the world with all his fury (which under The Shredder's parentage which would almost certainly be abusive in some form or another would probably be much more extreme) and take no prisoners and become a really nasty piece of work but extemely unhappy, or that his unshakable sense of justice would lead him to rebel whole-heartedly against The Shredder and to leave or even I could see him killing him in some kind of patrocidic ritual of anger and psychosis.

Leo. I really don't know about Leo. He might find himself in a similar situation as Karai. Good intentions, but torn between his own sense of honour and duty to his father. I think Leo could go so many different ways.... I just don't know.

[ToTheNines]

As Jenna said, Leo would be alot like Karai, if not exactly. I see Raph and Mikey loving the life of crime, Raph because he could blow off steam by just running a mission for Saki, and Mike because he seems like he can have fun no matter what. I see Don as being even more reclusive and quiet.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Closest to this is the Punk Frogs in the 1987 TMNT cartoon, but the Punk Frogs became friends to the TMNT then. I also remember a short comic (made in the UK) here in Sweden. It was a science fiction story with an alternate reality where the TMNT where criminals (they were robbing a bank with guns). Krang and Shredder wanted help from them.

[Scandia]

I am actually imagining a different scenario for Leonardo. Something in him would tell him that what Shredder is teaching him is wrong. And one day Leo would somehow find out that things are not the way that Shredder has taught him. And he would rebel in a bizarre sort of way. He would depart and choose the path of good. He may even take the other three with him. Not to mention the fact that Leo is very different from Shredder, while on the other hand he was extremely similar to Splinter and quickly recognized that what Splinter taught them was good. I can actually imagine Leonardo being Shredder's least favorite- even with the martial arts ability and determination, Leo would still be too much of a goody two shoes to appeal to Shredder. And he would certainly NOT be teacher's pet- much less daddy's boy.

Raphael and Michelangelo would have rap sheets ten miles long. Raphael could even butt heads with Shredder every once in a while- not because of discipline issues, but more because both want to rule the roost and do what they want and eat all the food. Michelangelo would have become a mean malicious jerk rather than a good-natured class clown goofball. He would not party- he would trash parties. Mikey may be more compliant than Raphael- or he may just totally goof off and still get whacked.

Donatello would have undoubtedly become a mad scientist. He would be making lots of machines- for Shredder to use for evil. It is possible that he may question Shredder's purposes, but it would take Donnie much longer than Leonardo to realize that something is not right. If Shredder treats Donnie harshly and is cruel to him, then he would realize something's amiss. But if Shredder and Donatello get along- if Shredder leaves him along to do his things- it would take much more exposure to outside forces for Donnie to realize something is not right.

[triplexxx]

Closest to this is the Punk Frogs in the 1987 TMNT cartoon, but the Punk Frogs became friends to the TMNT then. I also remember a short comic (made in the UK) here in Sweden. It was a science fiction story with an alternate reality where the TMNT where criminals (they were robbing a bank with guns). Krang and Shredder wanted help from them.
Another example might be the NT ep Reality Check: the turtles (super-hero, that is) were loyal to Sliver (Splinter) but turned against him after he turned evil. Maybe that's most likely what would happen, eventually they'd come to notice the error of their, or should I say Shredder's, ways, and then turn on him.

[Coola Yagami]

The thing is, Splinter taught them to follow the path of goodness and all that stuff. If they were taught to be merciless killers from the beginning, that's all they'd ever know and they'd care about. I mean, Leo got his sense of honor from Splinter, it's a learned trait. If Shredder chose not to teach him that, he wouldn't have any honor.

Saying the TMNT would learn 'the error of their ways and rebel against the Shredder' is like saying that Hun, Baxter or even members of the Foot would do the same thing.

[johnnyblaze]

if Shredder raised the turtles he'd probably have one hell of a mini army on his side

[ToTheNines]

Yea, Splinter would be one dead rat

[SassyGal]

Great topic!

The thing is, Splinter taught them to follow the path of goodness and all that stuff. If they were taught to be merciless killers from the beginning, that's all they'd ever know and they'd care about. I mean, Leo got his sense of honor from Splinter, it's a learned trait. If Shredder chose not to teach him that, he wouldn't have any honor.

Saying the TMNT would learn 'the error of their ways and rebel against the Shredder' is like saying that Hun, Baxter or even members of the Foot would do the same thing.

I agree with you. If they were raised by Shredder, that's all they would know. The only way for them to see the error of their ways, would be if at some point they stopped and listened to someone telling them what they are doing is wrong. But as they work for Shredder, they'd probably kill first, then ask questions later :lol:

[cMac44111]

The way I see it would be this

Leonardo would be like the new Karai. Sense of honor, but still obeys the father. He'd still be Shredder's prized son.

Donatello would be the new Baxter Stockman. Mad scientist, not sure if he'd still be practicing ninjitsu, but could still make some cool ****.

Raphael could be the new Hun/Tatsu. With an enforcer type role and take no prisoners attitude.

Michelangelo=?. Your guess is as good as mine. But maybe he'd turn into someone like Slash.

[triplexxx]

The thing is, Splinter taught them to follow the path of goodness and all that stuff. If they were taught to be merciless killers from the beginning, that's all they'd ever know and they'd care about. I mean, Leo got his sense of honor from Splinter, it's a learned trait. If Shredder chose not to teach him that, he wouldn't have any honor.

Saying the TMNT would learn 'the error of their ways and rebel against the Shredder' is like saying that Hun, Baxter or even members of the Foot would do the same thing.
That's very true. I was thinking that when I put in post #2 here. However...
If they were raised by Shredder, that's all they would know. The only way for them to see the error of their ways, would be if at some point they stopped and listened to someone telling them what they are doing is wrong.
There's always the possibility of that. That's what happened to the Punk Frogs and the Inuwashi Gunjin and what almost happened to Karai. These three, from the beginning, only had an evil master to teach them and give them a purpose in life, but then the turtles came along and convinced them to choose honor. That plus: the Punk Frogs and Karai already had a sixth sense of the fact they were carrying out evil. The turtles would probably also develop this sixth sense at a certain age and eventually run into somebody or something which would convince them to change their ways, and hopefully before they carry out any murders, since villains who already have murder on their criminal record are least likely to change. So they may not learn the error of their ways at the very start, but there's two things:
1. Learning never stops
2. It's never too late to change (was said regarding Baxter and Bishop last FF)

[SassyGal]

That's very true. I was thinking that when I put in post #2 here. However...

There's always the possibility of that. That's what happened to the Punk Frogs and the Inuwashi Gunjin and what almost happened to Karai. These three, from the beginning, only had an evil master to teach them and give them a purpose in life, but then the turtles came along and convinced them to choose honor. That plus: the Punk Frogs and Karai already had a sixth sense of the fact they were carrying out evil. The turtles would probably also develop this sixth sense at a certain age and eventually run into somebody or something which would convince them to change their ways, and hopefully before they carry out any murders, since villains who already have murder on their criminal record are least likely to change. So they may not learn the error of their ways at the very start, but there's two things:
1. Learning never stops
2. It's never too late to change (was said regarding Baxter and Bishop last FF)

That's a good point...didn't think about it that way.