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Blithe
07-17-2007, 10:30 PM
Much discussion has taken place exploring the dynamics between Leonardo and Karai and certainly most of this precipitated by their shared roles as leaders. I won’t deny that given an opportunity to sit down over tea and ruminate on leadership, responsibility and ninjitsu that Leo and Karai would find some common ground. However, I haven’t seen much discourse regarding parallels between Splinter and Karai. Personally, I think those parallels are gosh-darn interesting and worthy of exploration.

One of the most poignant moments for me in City at War was the death of Karai’s daughter. I was surprised at how gut-wrenching I found it. Up until that point, we didn’t realize that this mostly off-screen aide of Karai’s was her daughter. Suddenly, we’re presented with this electric shift between Karai as imposing Foot leader and Karai as a grief-stricken mother.

Karai, like Splinter, through whatever channels, ultimately made a choice not to shield her daughter from the Foot, but to bring her directly into the fold. Neither Splinter nor Karai were ever naïve to the dangers this would undoubtedly expose their children to. For Splinter, it was a matter of honor and vengeance, for Karai… a family trade? A daughter who chose following in her mother’s footsteps (yeah, no pun intended)? Like I said, I don’t know what lead up to her daughter taking the role she did, but ultimately Karai allowed it and like Splinter, had to resign herself to the consequences that could reap.

Whereas losing one of his sons was probably a recurring nightmare for Splinter, Karai was the unfortunate parent who had this nightmare become a reality. How easily this sudden loss of a child could have so easily been Leo, Raph, Mike or Don. Lucky for Splinter (and for us) that this was not a reality in his lifetime. At that moment, who better could truly relate to Karai than Splinter himself?

Karai and Splinter could speak beyond the borders of leadership and delve into their shared (and unique) experience as parents raising children in The Foot or in the shadow of The Foot. What motivated them, what they feared, what reservations they had and what, if any, compromises they had to make with their own consciences to make the decisions they did.

Alas, my comic collection is woefully incomplete and I’ve never seen any interaction between Splinter and Karai. If there ever was any interplay between these two characters, I’d love to be clued in as to how they perceived one another. I know Karai thought well of Splinter and she was at his funeral was she not? Can’t recall and I’m too lazy to check right now.

Like I said, the concept interests me and besides which, I've always thought Karai was a brilliantly crafted character. The way I see it, the loss of her daughter in City at War wasn't just a quick way to flesh out the storyline, it was a reminder of what could have been with Splinter and the turtles. It's easy to get overly confident that the turtles will always return home safely to Splinter - after all, they are the stars of the comic book. And fortunately as it turned out, as long as Splinter was alive they managed to do so; however, as readers we need to remember not to take that for granted.

Ninjinister
07-17-2007, 11:03 PM
(Starts clapping slowly until everyone joins him)

I never pondered it that way, but that was a thoughtful and well-written observation. I really don't know what else to say.

gobo
07-17-2007, 11:30 PM
Great topic! ^_^ However, I think the comparison of Leo and Karai was secluded to 2K3 while your angle only applies to the Mirage and Image comics. I'm a little rusty on my comic knowledge, so sorry I can't add anything else. :embarass:

Scandia
07-18-2007, 04:26 AM
There is a woman wearing a black dress at Splinter's funeral, but I cannot tell if she is Karai or not.

One of the reasons why Splinter and the Daimyo are such good friends in the 2k3 toon may be because they are both parents. So their having kids gives them something extra to bond over with.

How old is Karai in the Mirage comics? She's in her 20s or 30s in the 2k3 toon and 2007 movie. But in order to have a daughter assist her so well in City at War, she has to be at least in her late 30s. And she is probably in her 50s by Volume 4. She must be in awesome shape.

The Shelf
07-18-2007, 07:30 AM
There is a woman wearing a black dress at Splinter's funeral, but I cannot tell if she is Karai or not.

One of the reasons why Splinter and the Daimyo are such good friends in the 2k3 toon may be because they are both parents. So their having kids gives them something extra to bond over with.

How old is Karai in the Mirage comics? She's in her 20s or 30s in the 2k3 toon and 2007 movie. But in order to have a daughter assist her so well in City at War, she has to be at least in her late 30s. And she is probably in her 50s by Volume 4. She must be in awesome shape.

Karai wasn't at Splinter's funeral. I can't remember who the woman in the black dress was, but Peter listed all the characters at Splinter's funeral in one of the letters pages, and Karai wasn't there.

I think Karai is probably in her late 30s or early 40s in Vol. 4, but I'm just guessing. She was probably in her early 20s in Vol. 1, so that would put her around 36-39 I'd say.

gobo
07-18-2007, 07:59 AM
Early 20s with a full grown child, eh? Stranger things have happened... like humanoid mutant turtles inhabiting the sewer and being taught ninjitsu by a humanoid mutant rat who mastered ninjitsu while he was still just a normal pet.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-18-2007, 04:26 PM
I loved your observations, Blithe. I'm waiting for my City at War comics to arrive from Mirage, but I know what happened in all of the issues thanks to ninjaturtles.com, and I have to say, you hit the nail right on the head concerning why the writers included Karai's daughter's death.

You know, in Image TMNT Volume 3, that Karai is Lady Shredder. Why is she working against the Turtles and with the Foot Mystic Cheng?

I've been plotting out a major fan fiction work for quite some time that would continue and wrap up the Volume 3 storyline, and I've always thought that Karai was working with Cheng to resurrect her dead daughter*, and that when it came down to a choice between bringing her daughter back to life and honoring her truce, the truce came out the loser.

I've always wanted to talk with Image writer Gary Carlson (I'm gonna be so embarrased if I got his name wrong) and ask if that was what he was doing.

Wasn't Karai's daughter named Yanura?

Blithe
07-18-2007, 08:39 PM
Reading the occasional synopsis is the extent of my familiarity with Image. And I've only seen a few 2k3 episodes, a mere drop in the bucket, but I'm workin' on it.

RaphAttack: You've definitely peaked my interest in Vol. 3. City at War was piled high with emotion. Karai told the turtles she owed them her life at the conclusion of the series and encouraged them to take advantage of their newfound "freedom" from the shadow of The Foot. I wondered how much of that was genuine and how much of it could be attributed to being drunk off her recent grief. Karai working against the turtles in Vol. 3 helps answer that question for me.

I tried finding a reference to her daughter's name in CAW, but didn't see it anywhere. Must have been revealed at a later time that I missed. (Not hard for me to do) Yanura huh? Thanks! Made me crazy not to know that for some reason!

Thanks for the props, The S. Never underestimate the power of a diet of generic Cap'n Crunch.

Scandia
07-18-2007, 08:41 PM
Image Volume 3 is not canon. I think the female Shredder in Image is called Pimiko and has nothing to do with Karai. I think Karai dresses up as Shredder only in the 2k3 cartoon.

Blithe
07-18-2007, 08:52 PM
Canon shmanon, sometimes you just need to get a turtle fix ;)

Looks like I'll definitely need to check out 2k3 for Karai related material though!

The Shelf
07-19-2007, 07:48 AM
Early 20s with a full grown child, eh? Stranger things have happened... like humanoid mutant turtles inhabiting the sewer and being taught ninjitsu by a humanoid mutant rat who mastered ninjitsu while he was still just a normal pet.

Did she have a full grown child in the comic? I haven't actually read the Vol. 1 issues, but I haven't seen her kid in Vol. 4, so I assumed she didn't have one. If she did have a kid, then she's probably around 50-55 in Vol. 4. She really doesn't look or act that old, though.

odupianist
07-19-2007, 08:23 AM
Define full grown child. Splinter had our boys fighting at 15. What age would Karai put her daughter in the line of fire?

Scandia
07-19-2007, 08:36 AM
Full grown meaning that she had reached her full adult height and her body had the proportions it would have for the rest of her reproductive years. Everyone hits it at a different age. I was a late bloomer physically myself and still look very young for my age.

Blithe
07-19-2007, 10:18 AM
Did she have a full grown child in the comic? I haven't actually read the Vol. 1 issues, but I haven't seen her kid in Vol. 4, so I assumed she didn't have one. If she did have a kid, then she's probably around 50-55 in Vol. 4. She really doesn't look or act that old, though.
She does have a daughter, but makes no mention of her age. We know she works as an aide to Karai so I guess we can assume she's no longer in school? I wouldn't place her as any younger than 16 and think she's probably in her late teens/early 20's.

CylonsKlingonsDaleksOhMy
07-19-2007, 12:42 PM
I think the aide is named Yanura, but I only know this from a ninjaturtles.com synopsis; my order hasn't come in yet.

As for Volume 3 not being canon: who cares? It kicks butt. I have always preferred it to Volume 4, and I wish Laird would okay a wrapup on it like they're gonna do for Archie with the Forever War.

The female Shredder IS NOT Pimiko; she fought Pimiko and Raph. The writers revealed that it was going to be Karai, but the comic was canceled before it happened.

As for Karai's age, I think she had a kid really young, like maybe 16 or 18. In other cultures, women have children sooner, and Karai doesn't look anywhere near 50 in Volume 4.

I always wondered who the daddy was. Wasn't there a fan fiction work that revealed the father was Oroku Saki? Definitely not canon, but still cool.

odupianist
07-19-2007, 01:01 PM
haha it'd be interesting if it was Saki, although it would make sense. Saki had been going 15-20 yrs right? Him and Karai could have had a fling before he left...?

Mandi-chan
07-19-2007, 02:43 PM
I believe Saki was 19 when he was made leader of the New York fraction of the Foot.

Karai's daughter looked like she was between 16-early 20's...so Karai had to have been in her mid/late 30's-early 40's when "City at War" happened.

I liked your comparisons between Splinter and Karai, Blithe.

Scandia
07-19-2007, 03:48 PM
I read somewhere that Oroku Saki was 34 when the Turtles faced him in Mirage Volume 1 Number 1.

This also makes sense for the OT and the movie.

Mandi-chan
07-19-2007, 08:59 PM
I read somewhere that Oroku Saki was 34 when the Turtles faced him in Mirage Volume 1 Number 1.

That sounds about right.

As I mentioned before, Saki was around 18 or 19 when he was given the role of leadership over the New York City fraction of the Foot. The first issue implied that a couple of years had passed after Saki began to lead his Foot soldiers and started calling himself "The Shredder" before he made his move against Yoshi and Teng.

And 15 years passed before he faced the turtles.