What Happened to Jim Lawson?

[Venom]

Before I get flamed or attacked or whatever, let me say that I'm not bitching about Jim's artwork. It's quirky and it does grow on ya after a while. Besides, if it wasn't largely for him, we wouldn't have had most of the TMNT books that have came out in the last several years.

I've seen his blog and his portraits on there are quite amazing! Very photorealistic with very close attention to detail. So the guy can draw...

But what happened to the Jim from the late '80's? The one whose Turtese were drawn almost exactly like Kevin's? Hell, even the people's heads he drew looked good for the most part. Now, perhaps it was the inker/toner filling in some spots, but all in all Jim's work was fantastic!

I've wondered how/why he chose his new visual style for the Turtles when there was nothing wrong with his old style. Is something wrong with his hands and he can't hold a pencil for very long so he tries to rush it?

C'mon Jim, show us you've still got the old gritty look in ya.

[DrSpengler]

Well, it wasn't some snap decision to stop drawing like a professional. If you look through RTNY, Tales Vol. 1, CaW, Vol. 2 and finally Vol. 4 you can see it was a gradual process with his style declining at a steady pace. So it's not like he suddenly broke his hand and couldn't draw anymore, it was a decision on his part.

I imagine the gradual change is because drawing everything super stylized is a lot easier than drawing things with detail or realism. I mean, if you look at the environments in Vol. 4 and recent material, the man doesn't even use a ruler anymore when drawing buildings, making everything look all lopsided and deformed. That right there is the definiton of "rush job" or just plain "lazy".

Basically, a simpler style means an easier workload, so by cutting corners in his art and calling it "style" he doesn't have to work as hard.

[Buslady]

I know what you mean. There was alot of detail back then, really nice stuff. Now it's like really shakey and choppy, and his people look terrible. Gimme Dooney's art or anybody else's cos Lawson's lost it.

in reference to the rulers: in other words he's lazy, he doesnt care to give quality work anymore. no wonder TMNT comics makes no money cos the product sucks. They need to end this corny storyline, change artist and get on with a better story.

[DrSpengler]

I see it as a matter of cronyism.

Laird and Lawson are best friends and no matter how BAD Lawson's art can be, Laird will never fire his friend (probably becuase this is the only job an artist like Lawson could possibly get). And considering Laird's "don't buy any of my books" policy, I imagine a change in artists is never gonna happen.

[Rooish]

Keep in mind that in "Return to New York"--probably three of the best-drawn issues of TMNT ever--Kevin Eastman did the layouts and he really went overboard on the detail, with very tight lineart. Jim Lawson basically just copied those drawings almost exactly when he pencilled "Return to New York." Then other guys inked it ... and they actually inked it, and didn't use some crappy computer program to add dot shading (as is done in Volume 4). "Return to New York, Part Three," is, in my opinion, the one with the best art, and that one was even inked by Eastman.

In "City at War" Lawson's art was more cartoony, but the people who inked it worked with that style. Also Lawson seemed to try harder then, and the characters were drawn with more detail.

In Volume 4, he doesn't really spend much time on each individual panel (so it seems), and the inking is pretty damn half-assed (no variation in lines or shadow, and the fake-looking computer shading). It's too bad, really, that they don't remember that the whole point of a comic book is that it expressed a story through art. Oh well.

[DrSpengler]

Just to keep this from becoming a 100% "Lawson BAD" thread...

To Lawson's credit, while his art has declined in quality, the man DOES know how to tell a story. He paces everything out very well and he knows how to set up panels for maximum effect. While the art itself is nothing special, the angles he draws everything at are very dynamic.

[Rooish]

That's true, I definitely agree that he uses a lot of variety in his angles. And I love how he writes his stories and characters.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't think his art has changed at all over the years. He's just not a guy you'd really ever want to have ink himself, or saddle with an inker that isn't going to inject a bit of their own vision over the pencils -- which is exactly what we see of late.

[jenna]

I was really shocked actually. One of the first comics I read (just recently) was Return to New York and I viewed the art with slack-jawed awe. Thought it was beautiful. Next one was tales 34 and when I opened the comic I was surprised that the artist was the same. It seemed stylised but.... lazy, like Buslady said and I was sad that it didn't have the same quality to it. That said, from the POV of someone who is new to the comics, it takes some getting used to - the more square style of drawing, but I think Lawson has such a unique style - I would love to see more of his work.

The quality of Paul Harmon's art in Tales 36 to me was amazing and though I'm reticent to compare artists, I enjoyed the story so much more than Lawson issues because it was so visually spectacular.

[Andrew NDB]

I was really shocked actually. One of the first comics I read (just recently) was Return to New York and I viewed the art with slack-jawed awe. Thought it was beautiful. Next one was tales 34 and when I opened the comic I was surprised that the artist was the same. It seemed stylised but.... lazy,

Look at the inkers. The Return to New York one must be Vol. 1 #21 (the only RTNY he did the pencils on), which was inked by Kevin-effing-Eastman -- of course it's going to look awesome, because Eastman is going to take liberties with Lawson's pencils to make them appear more Eastman-esque. Guess who the inker was in Tales #34? Lawson just inked himself.

[Mandi-chan]

Lawson's art seems really cheap and lazy, and the inking doesn't help...because it seems to be equally cheap and poor.

His stuff wasn't that bad in City at War, his people looked much better than they do now anyway.

[VaughnMichael]

Look at the inkers. The Return to New York one must be Vol. 1 #21 (the only RTNY he did the pencils on), which was inked by Kevin-effing-Eastman -- of course it's going to look awesome, because Eastman is going to take liberties with Lawson's pencils to make them appear more Eastman-esque. Guess who the inker was in Tales #34? Lawson just inked himself.
See but yeah that doesn't work all that well because Lawson inked his own art in his base biker and orson series as well as in the roll playing mutants down under and other art he did for those books.
I think it's more of a case that Lawsons art just doesn't look good with dark thick lines he used to use very thin lines on his art and it looks allot better for the cartoonish style he draws in.
I remember him saying at some point not to long ago why exactly his art is differnt now he even admited it himself I believe he said he really wanted to draw like another mirage artist Michael Dooney or some one along those lines I can't remember the exact person but he said he felt as if he wasn't being true to himself and thats what caused his art to change to the style we see before us now.

[Vegita-San]

Just as an aside. Laird doesn't have too fire him. He could bring him on as a story editor, manager, brainstormer, etc.... As I posted on another board, Laird did awesome buildings in the Donatello movie issue, but the rest of the books art stunk...

Same goes for the movie adaption book. The cover looks great. But inside, it was way too toony is the best way I can describe it. The way donatello looked on the cover, April, et al is how the designs in the actual book should have looked.

[Ninjinister]

My favorite rendition of Leatherhead ever is in his debut issue, which was pencilled by Lawson. This is what I wish his art still looked like today. The Turtles weren't boxy (no pun intended), Leatherhead looks like an actual anthropomorphic gator/croc/w'ever, and the humans looked like humans!

For the record, Dan Berger's Leatherhead is a very f%&ing close second. I feel that man owns the character now.

[jenna]

Look at the inkers. The Return to New York one must be Vol. 1 #21 (the only RTNY he did the pencils on), which was inked by Kevin-effing-Eastman -- of course it's going to look awesome, because Eastman is going to take liberties with Lawson's pencils to make them appear more Eastman-esque. Guess who the inker was in Tales #34? Lawson just inked himself.

That's definitely something I've noticed in my limited exerience - that the inking makes the image. Eastman's art is awesome - it's a shame he doesn't do it anymore. I love Laird's art too.

[Andrew NDB]

For the record, Dan Berger's Leatherhead is a very f%&ing close second. I feel that man owns the character now.

Yes he does.

[Raph'N'Roll]

I just read Tales 36 today and Harmon's work is fantastic, overall it was one of the most enjoyable issues in a long time.
I made the mistake of reading Tales 36 before Raphael Bad Moon Rising, visually Bad Moon is such a step down from Tales 36 in an absolutely shocking way.
I may as well be reading a novel, because the art just doesn't please the eye at all, would Harmon's art not inspire Lawson to do better? or has he lost the passion and the will to be a better artist.
Harmon's take on the Turtles is what I'd love to see on a permanent basis, it was dark, gritty and had bags of atmosphere, the Turtles looked lethal and dangerous.

[Andrew NDB]

I just read Tales 36 today and Harmon's work is fantastic, overall it was one of the most enjoyable issues in a long time.
I made the mistake of reading Tales 36 before Raphael Bad Moon Rising, visually Bad Moon is such a step down from Tales 36 in an absolutely shocking way.
I may as well be reading a novel, because the art just doesn't please the eye at all, would Harmon's art not inspire Lawson to do better? or has he lost the passion and the will to be a better artist.
Harmon's take on the Turtles is what I'd love to see on a permanent basis, it was dark, gritty and had bags of atmosphere, the Turtles looked lethal and dangerous.

Well... let's not use Tales #36 as a springboard to attack Lawson. He's had a thankless job for as long as I can remember, no matter what style of artwork we may personally prefer.

[Raph'N'Roll]

Maybe I am being a little harsh, I do like some of Lawson's previous work, and the man can certainly draw a mean dinosaur, lately it just seems rushed and it's little bit too stylized for my liking.

[Roseangelo]

Maybe I am being a little harsh, I do like some of Lawson's previous work, and the man can certainly draw a mean dinosaur, lately it just seems rushed and it's little bit too stylized for my liking.

I don't think it's too harsh. I think it's honest criticism. How many people are desperately trying to get into the comic book industry? A lot, and even some of the most talented will never make it. If Lawson were trying to get into the industry today with the work that he does, no one would everever hire him. Paul Harmon's art may be particularly exceptional, but there are still dozens of fan artists who can deliver better than what Lawson has in the last few years.

Murphy's said it pretty clearly that Lawson continues to draw issues to stay employed. We're stuck with him until he decides to quit.

[VaughnMichael]

I agree people really shouldn't feel badly about their own opinions.
We can all differ on them as much as we like but the fact of the matter is and even if you come to his side any time some one says anything about his art that's not happy sunshine that you can at least say he's really changed allot.
From what I'm told he's not even happy but I'm honestly sick of talking about Lawsons art.
I used to really enjoy it now I don't woopity doo so sue me.:P

[Andrew NDB]

I'm not saying people shouldn't voice their opinions about Lawson, it just seems kind of s****y to me to use Tales #36 as a platform to launch those opinions. I'm not saying I disagree, but just that.

[VaughnMichael]

I'm not saying people shouldn't voice their opinions about Lawson, it just seems kind of s****y to me to use Tales #36 as a platform to launch those opinions. I'm not saying I disagree, but just that.
It's a little hard for people not to though and I'm sure any random person if you asked them in a taste test which did they enjoy more new Diet Tales of tmnt #36 or that other cola Raphael Bad Moon Rising you'd not be shocked as to which one they picked.

[Venom]

FWIW, I didn't use Tales #36 as a launch point to base my disdain for Jim's work. I've had this feeling for a lloonngg time now, but it's kinda like a flat coke when your thirsty...you may not care for the taste but at least it's something. Don't get me wrong, I like Jim Lawson simply cause he does Turtles, so my view is one of empathy for the fella as to why he's allowed his art style to drift.

Actually if you look at Paul's art, I mean really look at the lines and strokes, you'll see that a lot of hs work isn't really that detailed and the lines aren't straight, but the tones and shadowing he uses, and the way he layed out the pages and used heavy yet simple lines and darker tones and makes up for any and all shortcomings his work may show otherwise. And I personally think Paul's work kicked some serious ass! But would it look as beautiful with no toning, like Jim's.....probably not.

Peter should let Jim take over something administrative, or let him do more writing, so he can stay with the company. The man has to have other talents than holding a stick.

[Andrew NDB]

But would it look as beautiful with no toning, like Jim's

It's not toning, though, at least not the duo-tones us 80s Mirage brats have come to see as synonymous with what Mirage TMNT should feature.

What is it, by the way? Tristan, do you know? Some kind of watercolors? Charcoal?

[Venom]

Eh, I know whatcha mean being a Mirage brat too; Paul's shading/toning looks like a mixture of charcoals, heavy inks and paint. Technically, there are different ways of toning other than the duo-toning Mirage used back in the day. I remember reading somewhere that Pete said they drifted away from the duo-tones because it was more expensive than creating a color cover or something to that effect. Some of the shading in the early books was a special paper you cut out and apply to the artwork as a ready made shade. In Vol. 4 it looks like they use Photoshop to apply half-tones which isn't as effective in a comic as it is in the Sunday comics.

K, I'm super sleepy so if the above wasn't very coherent then that's why. Nite all.

[Fledermaus]

It's not toning, though, at least not the duo-tones us 80s Mirage brats have come to see as synonymous with what Mirage TMNT should feature.

What is it, by the way? Tristan, do you know? Some kind of watercolors? Charcoal?

I'm not the writer (tristan) nor am I the artist (paul harmon) but I'm pretty sure I read from one of them or some other site... that the shading was done on computer. Not sure about the inks, though.

By the way... Don't mean to get personal or anything, but we have had waaaay to many of these threads. :lol:

[TristanHuwJones]

From what I understand, Paul's done all the pencil work and inking by hand. All the shading has been done digitally. I've only ever seen a few of the pages in straight-forward inks, but when I saw them I was floored. It certainly looks more atmospheric with his rendering, but the thing about artisitic works like comic book art, is that there's a completion process. What you see, for the most part in a comic book is finished art, and if you take steps back on anyone's artwork, it's not going to look as good as the final product. Sure, there will be times where artists are rushed to meet deadlines and aren't necessarily happy with their own work, but that's bound to happen once in a while.
Both of us worked with black and white in mind - when I wrote, I wrote knowing I'd be looking at a black and white comic, although at the time, there wasn't as much toning being used so I kind of wrote with that in mind (imagining we'd use Sin City-esque techniques to get around the water from the sprinklers and effects like that), but the way Paul works, he was able to get across something far less stylized and more suitably realistic than I'd initially projected. Because I wasn't writing specifically for Paul at the time of writing, I'd imagined it being something visually similar to the Blindsight mini, but now, if Paul and I get to work together again (which I hope we do) I'll be able to tweak the scripting to suit the way he works a hell of a lot better.

[Andrew NDB]

So you two will be a package deal going forward?

[TristanHuwJones]

Unfortunately nothing's ever a certainty, so I don't know. I'd very much like to though!

[jenna]

That would be awesome - as based on tales 36 your work complements each other's very well - gritty and atmospheric.

And to quote myself from another thread re tales 36:

I took my comic into work today to read during my lunch break and the artwork attracted a lot of people to ask about it and a lot of non tmnt fans showed a lot of interested, particularly in the cover image. That, to me, says a lot about the 'pull' of good artwork.

Perhaps a revamp of the comic artwork so that it carries more impact like #36 does would be beneficial to the profits of Mirage. It may attract more readers.

[Venom]

Bingo, Jenna! I heavily second that motion! Let Lawson write or something, but let someone like Paul do the art! His work heas that Eastman, Farley, Talbot-esque feel to it. :D

I remember Pete writing in one of the letters pages of Vol. 4 that the books never see a profit and are done mostly as a gift to the fans and cause he had a story he wanted to tell.

If any of you read the SuicideGirls interview with Kevin, he stated that even he has more Turtle stories to tell so there's a glimmer of hope that he'll stp up and write a story or two again. Now THAT'S what the Turtles need - an Eastman injection!

While Peter was good about bringing sci-fi to the TMNT, Eastman brought grit and realism to the table. Sure, he had his hardcore fun with BodyCount. But I think that's where he and Peter may have disagreed: Kevin wanted harder, grittier violence and Peter wanted a more light-hearted, character-driven story.

[Ninjinister]

If any of you read the SuicideGirls interview with Kevin, he stated that even he has more Turtle stories to tell so there's a glimmer of hope that he'll stp up and write a story or two again. Now THAT'S what the Turtles need - an Eastman injection!



I smell 25th anniversary special!

(Sniff)

No wait... that's the raccoon outside doing his business. Ew.

[Time Mistress]

How about a story with character driven gritty violence?;)

I think Lawson is still awesome when it comes to layouts, but his art has definately slipped, but a more detailed inking job might help.

I'd love to see Eric Talbot do a full TMNT issue again, and not just a Tales frontpiece.

[twopinacoladas]

"I smell 25th anniversary special!"

Oh man I hope so, the early issues are still my fav, the Easman & Laird books, I can agree with a lot of ppls opionions.

I have thought the same thing with Jim Lawsons work, although in Return To NY he had very detailed layouts and Pete and Kevin inked issues along with Eric Talbot.

The first tales volume was a lot closer to the Eastman and Laird style now he has pretty well made his own unique style theres no mistaking Lawsons art. I don't hate it but I know what he has done and it seems less realistic I guess, where there is less detail and more squigily lines I guess. Although lots of his environments or settings are generally very nice and detailed his people tend to look alike imo, I guess because they are all in the same style.

I can appreciate his work for what it is, but would love to have some more gritty E&L style, its nice that tales has a lot of different artist that really mix it up, its very refreshing. I think theres a couple issues I have to pick up I havent been to the comic book store in months now.