Character Development

[Sage Ninja]

which character in the 2k3 series do you think has changed or matured the most over the course of the series?

Now I know that all the characters have evolved and matured considering all the adventures that each of them have had and all the tough situations they have had to endure, but which do you think benefited the most from it the most and visiably changed? Which do you think stayed more or less the same though out the seasons?

I think with the turtles Raphael under went the most change and evolution. At first he was pretty angry and agnsty and had some resent for Leonardo, but he eventually extended an olive branch and made piece with him and his position in the team and excepted it. I think that shows a lot of maturity. Also Raphael over the course of the season became less of a petulant loner and became more of a team player and contributed more affectively to the team and even learned to keep in his temper a bit better. In season four I think shows the most of Raphael evolution since he shapes up and takes the riens of command on a few occassions and stays calm and collected in a hectic situations and reacts level headedly with Leoanrdo's out bursts. I think Raphael under went the most change during the course of the series and evolved the most, since his advabcement happened subtly over the course of several seasons.

As for none turtle characters, I think April under went the most change and evolution through out the series. She went from a lab assistent that (even though compentant) was rather helpless to a very capable and effective fighter and capable woman in her own right. Although personally I think she got to good at the ninjisu thing a bit to fast, but what ever. I felt Raphael evolution was handled much better since they gave more time to it.

As for Villans, I would have to say Hun. Hun suprised me the mostas a villan in this series. At first he seemed like a a mere hired muscle and lackey that quacked in fear at scewing up and displeasing his master. Even though he was portayed as a badass he was also quite undeniably Shredder's bitch, and he acted like it when ever he was in his presence. However Hun went from hired muscle to a crime boss that headed a rather sophisticated crime syndicate . He turned the Purple dragon from a bunch of street punk gangs into a organised "mob" and started hitting big time crime. i think that pretty impressive.

So lets here it, which characters in the series under went the most change and which ones stayed the same?

[Time Mistress]

Leo easily. Season 1 was Leo vs. Shredder. Season 2 & 3 was Leo vs Karai and the Ultimate Ninja. Season 4 was Leo vs. himself.

Raph calmed down and became more of a team player but it never got emphsized much after season 2, it was more subtle

Mike it's hard to say, I think his physical skills have grown enormously - Big Brawl, Touch and Go, Grudge Match, as for his maturity level - well that seems to have remained untouched:P

Don grew in physical skill like the others and in his technology skills with all the alien tech they encountered but never really had a character arc. Poor Donny.:(

I liked Casey's evolution in his relationship with April and his vedetta against Hun. I agree about April too.

I think Hun's evolution was well said. Karai maybe, but she just seemed to sway back and forth between good and bad guy, rather than evolving really until the lost season.

[Sage Ninja]

I guess you have a point about Leo, but I felt that his agnst fest (although very impactful) was reverced to easily. Yes he was tormented and freaked out about his families almost death and his failure but I felt that something that traumitiseing would have changed him a bit more after the issue was resolved. It was like: I spent months agnsting over this one thing, and now I'm all better and can go back to the way I was before it all happened. I don't dispute that the Leonardo's cure was handled effectively its just that I thought it was a bit unrealistice that he got better so...fast, I guess :ohwell:. I think when some one goes through a traumatic experience, even if its resolved and they find peice, they can go back to how they where before hand to an extent, but not entirely. I would think that he would have changed a little more ofter the fact. Jeez I'm explaining my self poorly. You get what I'm trying to say?

Mikey...I agree had some advancement but it always seemed like it never really stuck after wards, or he never completely learned his lesson. Its like in a few episodes Mikey makes a revelation or gains some advancement but then loses it by the next episode and takes a step back from what he gained :ohwell:I don't know, I may the only that feels that way. I think he didn't progress too much the course of the series. Or perhaps it was to suble that flew under my radar.

Casey...I think he went a regression after his debut in season one from believable badass with a temper problem to whipped bubbling goof from the later part of season one till season three. Then in season four is when the writters seemed to really lose the "Joe from Frasier" way of portraying Casey to a believeable badass again with a some true agnst with Hun and his father. I like how they developed him in season four. It almost made up for the character exploition he suffered in earlier seasons.

[triplexxx]

i'm sure there was a thread about this made some time ago, but no matter. As for character development, well, it's kinda hard to distinguish what a character develops from what a character already had:

-Leonardo: always the leader-type/strategist/protective order-giver, though a lot of times when giving orders all he did was state the obvious, always seem to take the safety of his family personally, so the feelings he had regarding his family's safety in Season 4 were not new, just a little more extreme.
-Raphael: always the angsty/aggressive one, yet at the same time it was already easy enough to figure out his loyalty to family, his protective and, not to mention, compassionate/sympathetic side (like in Meet Casey Jones & Lone Raph and Cub), and his keen intuition, like he had about Karai and Dark Leo. These are things he likely had all along...the only time he really got out of hand in a fight with one of his family was Meet Casey Jones, but aside from that, it was nothing new that he always was pretty caring and compassionate.
-Donatello: always the nerd, hard-worker, providing all his family's tech needs and being the Maguyver of the group. Also showed quite a compassionate side and concern for others (Return to the Underground), but that was a trait all of them always had. Probably not much changed in him except his physical abilities, but that goes for all the turtles, they ALL got better as the series progressed. His temporary defeat of Shreddeer in SAINW was quite a feat, but likely something he was always capable of and something his brothers could've accomplished just as well.
-Michaelangelo: always the goofball, probably the one in the family looked down on the most, but I guess you can say his development was rising above that through his various individual achievements (Turtle Titan, Battle Nexus, Reality Check), but again, these were physical accomplishments he likely had in him all along.

I'd say what a lot of people define as character development in the turtles was really nothing more than various random examples of their personalities in the norm, or a bit above the norm. I'd say the few very best examples of character development were the episodes of their spiritual accomplishments: Bad Day and the Lost Season.

[Scandia]

Of the Turtles, Leo did evolve the most. But I am glad that he has been healed from his trauma. Trust me on this one.

Of the supporting characters, I think Casey Jones has matured and evolved the most. He went from a vigilante who lived for the present to a much more mature and mellow man with a reason for looking forward to the future.

Of the villains, probably Karai. Now the 7th season will reveal whether she will be helping or chasing the Turtles.

[odupianist]

I think Mikey has had more change than most people think. He just does it more subtly because he'll always be a goof ball and that overshadows his other personality traits for some people. I think he's become a lot more disciplined with his abilities and training personally. Granted, you don't see much of it because Mikey has been overlooked in the various incarnations of the TMNT.

[Sage Ninja]

I'm bumping this :D

I would also like to add that Baxter Stockman have evolved quite a bit through out the series.

I finnally got to see Insane in the Membrane and I have to say that it showed alot of good back ground on Baxter. He went from really annoying generic bad guy to a sympathatic character. It made him human and you realize that he had a good upbringing and a caring mom, and he seemed like a genuanly good kid. It just makes you wonder on what happened to make Baxter turn out the way that he did, and you feel sorry for him, that he went from that to a mutatilated brain in a jar. I'm glad that in FF his story sort of comes to a head (seriously pun not intended) and he gets a chance to start over.

[ToTheNines]

It's very subtle, but I'd say Raphael changed the most.

[Warhorse]

Raphael change the most in the most positive way. He went from angry Turtle to less angry, and has pretty much learned to control his anger, at least with his brothers.

[Masked Ninja]

I'm inclined to agree - Leo got pulled the furthest out of the box (completely losing control over his anger, which he usually stifles or redirects) but Raph actually changed more over time. He didn't change personalities completely, but he did become more of a team player and was less impulsive. Leo did have some major issues for a while, but in the end he needed more of a spiritual cleansing to get back to normal... rather than change for the better.

And Mikey got some great "get serious and mature" episodes... too bad they didn't stick.

Don stayed pretty much the same, though I really wish they'd have followed up on SAINW better. That's not something you just bounce back from, even if it hadn't actually happened.

[Rooish]

I agree with Sage's and Mask's points about everything. Mike had many moments where he could have developed ... but he didn't Raph got a subtle character development ... no one event changed him, but he slowly became more mature. I just wish he had received any focus in the most recent few seasons! Somehow with arguably the least focus, though (even compared to Don, I think), he changed the most of them all.

[Sage Ninja]

I'm inclined to agree - Leo got pulled the furthest out of the box (completely losing control over his anger, which he usually stifles or redirects) but Raph actually changed more over time. He didn't change personalities completely, but he did become more of a team player and was less impulsive. Leo did have some major issues for a while, but in the end he needed more of a spiritual cleansing to get back to normal... rather than change for the better.

I would say that in 2k3 Raphael and Leonardo got the most development in the series, (well Leonardo more so than Raph) but I agree that Leonardo's character was pulled the furthest out of the box and had the most bold character development since he got very angry and emotinal. I would have liked all the turtles to have under gone a "pulling out of the box" of their character moments, though not in such a viloent way as Leo had. just to gravitate away from the status quo of their personalites.

And Mikey got some great "get serious and mature" episodes... too bad they didn't stick.

Honestly, that is what pissed me off the msot about the way Mikey's character was handled in the 2k3 series. He actually did get some character progession episodes but I feel they didn't go far enough, or they where just exploiting his character flaws to get a few laughs than to actually solve the problem. Instead of always having episode where he deals with the reprucussions of being cocky and boastful, why not delve into the reasons why he feels he has to put up a front of bravado, or feels he has to play to the hilt any accomplishment he makes and rub his brothers faces in it (other than the weak "because he is a jerk" responce). And in episode where he does seem like he makes some progress he never it never sticks, and I, the viewer, am left to go, "so what the hell was the point of last weeks episode"? I just feel the writters just didn't know how to handle Mikey in this series. They wanted him to be the "funny one" but they constantly write them selves into a hole by trying to keep him there because they give him some progression then relize that him "learning his lesson" and maturing and progressing, conflicts with the role they want him to fill as comic relief, and have him act no diffrently than he always has. :roll: So that Mikey litterly, takes a step foward, them takes two steps back.

Don stayed pretty much the same, though I really wish they'd have followed up on SAINW better. That's not something you just bounce back from, even if it hadn't actually happened.

I guess you could say that, but he did get some very important emotinal epidoes like Same As it Never Was. And though suble Don seems to experience the most emotinal dissapointments. Like losing Proffessor Honey Cutt, or feeling saddened by that woman from "the People's choice" leaving him, or losing that Kirby guy in that alternate world. Don seems to be hit the hardest when it comes to personal losses. Plus he seems to have the most harmonious relationship with some one that close to him (April) out of every one else.

[Machias Banshee]

I'm reading a lot of really good points here, especially about Leonardo from Mask and Sage.

Leonardo...
Looking back on the Season with Leo's 'dark stage', I can definitely agree that it was a very intense amount of change for him. I know that during the airing of the episodes, I really didn't like how Leo developed - it seemed erratic and didn't make sense to me. However, once I realized that some of the shows were shown out of order, that was when I was able to look back and see things correctly.

Leonardo's decline was interesting to see, but as some others said, NOBODY bounces back from something like that. I mean, I thought Leo would be gone for Several episodes. Some of the events that happened during the 'healing' process were just so unrealistic (even for a cartoon). I mean..

A. To have him gone for only one episode and come back perfectly fine (and a touch psychic?) is just not believable. Anyone who recovers from a traumatic event can tell you - its not a simple epiphany. And..

B. To have the other turtles AND Splinter so completely incapacitated while he was gone... what? It just isn't characteristic of them -- Mike sleeping in a subway gutter, Raphael SITTING around??

The decline (when seen in chronological order..) was very interesting and believable. I just think that the sudden flip-flop over to being perfectly fine could have been handled differently. If Leo could have been away longer than one episode, and Then see the others survive without him, that would have been a bit more compelling. But in all, Leo did have quite a season...


Splinter
I have to say, I was fascinated at how they've portrayed Splinter in this series. Splinter being shown not only as the boys' father, but Also Yoshi's son was a wonderful facet to his character. Seeing him mourn when he tells the boys about Saki, and again when he recieves (and loses) the orb from the utroms, AND when he has his dreams of Yoshi at the beginning of the Exodus episode... you really see the separation anxieties.

Seeing the Tale of Yoshi just broke my heart. I love Shen and Yoshi's characters. Seeing how he came to be in Yoshi's care was a nice little touch to the history. I've always been a big fan of Splinter, but seeing the 'son half' of his character was a nice new angle... :)

Unfortunately, Splinter seems to have fallen back to the background fortune cookie figure of the old series. The fact that he's now a soap opera addict doesn't sit well either. I have to say that he is a very strong character in the lost season, which makes me happy and hopeful...

[triplexxx]

A. To have him gone for only one episode and come back perfectly fine (and a touch psychic?) is just not believable. Anyone who recovers from a traumatic event can tell you - its not a simple epiphany. And..Well, that's not the first time "psychic" occured in the show.B. To have the other turtles AND Splinter so completely incapacitated while he was gone... what? It just isn't characteristic of them -- Mike sleeping in a subway gutter, Raphael SITTING around??I don't think incapacitated is the right word, if that was the case, they'd have been dead after Karai attacked them, and Splinter was the only one actually injured that battle.

[Scandia]

Leonardo may have been with the Ancient One for only two episodes. But between his going to Japan and his return to New York, two months passed (including travel time- which I can imagine was part of the healing process, at least when Leo headed to Japan).

Even the most resilient person will NOT bounce back easily from something so traumatizing. Trust me. Sometimes it takes a very long time to heal. And the stress is never really gone. You just function and work around it and make the best out of things.

Isn't Splinter awesome? I had always liked him- but 2k3 is certainly his best manifestation. And Fast Forward is "silly time", so it is fine with me if he watches soap operas. It's not as if it is all he does. I seriously doubt that the reason why Splinter is having Leonardo be the one training Cody in Ninjitsu was so that Splinter could slack off and watch soap operas while Leo was doing the hard work. Splinter is certainly NOT useless in FF.

[triplexxx]

The reason he's having "all his sons" train Cody is 'cause he wants to give them a privledge, and he's still kinda taking part in it too.

[Buslady]

For Raph what sucks is all that maturity was completely lost in FF.
I hope he's back to NORMAL in this new take on the series. Everybody for that matter. They're regressed in maturity in FF.

[Rooish]

Thought I'd bump this because it's a good topic.

I like Raph's progression best in 2k3 ... his character growth is very good. And I find that he, like Don, manages to do it in the background (I definitely feel that Mikey and Leo got most of the spotlight in the new series). Both Don and Raph are more sentimental, and they steal the spotlight less, than any other version I've seen them.

The reason why I think that Don and Raph get better development in 2k3 is because their development is behind-the-scenes; no real episodes stand out as huge character pieces for either of them, after Season 1, in my mind. Don didn't even really change after "SAINW" or "Good Genes;" he just got nicer and nicer as the series progressed. Same with Raph, who started out less nice. Leo and Mikey get stereotypical episodes like "The Ancient One" and "Grudge Match," and then their character development seems forced and jarring. Mikey has so many chances to be a better and more mature character than he is: "Unconvincing Turtle Titan," "Grudge Match," the Battle Nexus stuff, and many other focus points. But he still just stays effing annoying.

[ToTheNines]

But he still just stays effing annoying.

Yeah, I screamed with insanity this morning while watching "The Freaks Come Out At Night" (One of my favorite episodes) when he goes: "RRRRRELIIIIIIIIISH!" :x

[Coola Yagami]

Thing is, in Fast Forward, Mikey got even MORE immature and annoying.. and Raph regressed to being a grouch where every other line he says is either a complaint or an insult.

[ToTheNines]

and Raph regressed to being a grouch where every other line he says is either a complaint or an insult.

I feel that Raph's attitude in FF reflects the way most fans feel about the whole FF situation.

[Sage Ninja]

(I definitely feel that Mikey and Leo got most of the spotlight in the new series).

eh...I beg to differ on this one. Mikey was kinda in the back ground in the 2k3 series and generally doesn't have much input in whats going except to crack one liners, other than that he was pretty much just the comic relief. He may have gotten focus but it was rarely any good focus. Leo, Don, and Raph had wau more indepth facets to their personas than Mikey did in the new toon. Leo and Raph definately got the most focus in 2k3, Raph especially since this was the first ninja turtles animated cartoon to portray his violent and tempermental tendacies and rebellious and tough guy persona from it orginal source material, rather than the whimsical light hearted sarcastic comedic portrayal he had from the classic series. It was the first version to display his violent tendacies and angst at his ability to control his own anger. The only thing that I think was played down more was his anguish and complete rage at being ostersized from normal society that is prevelant in the Mirage comics. But I think they made up for that by playing up his resentment and rivalry with Leo and then him coming to terms it and finding some common groud with Leo, which showed some great advancement in his character.

Leo and Mikey get stereotypical episodes like "The Ancient One" and "Grudge Match," and then their character development seems forced and jarring. Mikey has so many chances to be a better and more mature character than he is: "Unconvincing Turtle Titan," "Grudge Match," the Battle Nexus stuff, and many other focus points. But he still just stays effing annoying.

Since you find these episodes sterotypical to their characters, what kind of episodes would not be sterotypical. What sort of story line or plot do you think would make a better character cenrtic episode for Leo and Mikey that would develop them in a less forced and jarring way, that doesn't focus on their obvious character flaws?

[Buslady]

I feel that Raph's attitude in FF reflects the way most fans feel about the whole FF situation.

I have one word:

YES.

[Rooish]

eh...I beg to differ on this one. Mikey was kinda in the back ground in the 2k3 series and generally doesn't have much input in whats going except to crack one liners, other than that he was pretty much just the comic relief. He may have gotten focus but it was rarely any good focus. Leo, Don, and Raph had wau more indepth facets to their personas than Mikey did in the new toon. Leo and Raph definately got the most focus in 2k3, Raph especially since this was the first ninja turtles animated cartoon to portray his violent and tempermental tendacies and rebellious and tough guy persona from it orginal source material, rather than the whimsical light hearted sarcastic comedic portrayal he had from the classic series. It was the first version to display his violent tendacies and angst at his ability to control his own anger. The only thing that I think was played down more was his anguish and complete rage at being ostersized from normal society that is prevelant in the Mirage comics. But I think they made up for that by playing up his resentment and rivalry with Leo and then him coming to terms it and finding some common groud with Leo, which showed some great advancement in his character.

Okay ... well I do think that Mikey got a lot of the spotlight; I just don't think it was well done. I can't really back this up but I suspect that Mikey gets the most lines out of his bros in the average episode. Yes, none of these lines are character-driven or help to advance the plot. But that doesn't mean he's not in the spotlight; it just means he's an attention-hogging tool.

I do think that Mikey's presence in the average episode dominates more than Raph's or Don's, because he's so over-the-top and overwhelming. I don't think he was well-developed, though, as you know! ;) He is mostly just obnoxious and cowardly. I do notice that his fighting skills improved noticeably as the series went on ... but his personality didn't. I maintain that Don and Raph got less screentime and spotlight. But I do agree that Don and Raph were better developed than Mikey, just more in the background. I really don't see all of the focus you say that Raph got. I thought he was overlooked often. But I do think his character managed to mature and grow really well without focus.

Since you find these episodes sterotypical to their characters, what kind of episodes would not be sterotypical. What sort of story line or plot do you think would make a better character cenrtic episode for Leo and Mikey that would develop them in a less forced and jarring way, that doesn't focus on their obvious character flaws?

I don't really know ... maybe if someone made an episode out of that fanfiction "Underdark (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3624149/1/Underdark)"? I know it won't happen ... because it's someone's fanfiction, but in it, Mikey and Leo are trapped underground together, and Leo is crippled in some way and neither of them can see anything. But Mikey has to assume a kind of leadership role, and it gets into his psyche of self-doubts and overactive imagination. Leo, in the meantime, doesn't really stress the true nature of his injuries, and he must struggle with having to rely on Mikey and not lead. But he still needs to keep is pride intact ...

It's the most likeable fan interpretation of 2k3 Mikey I have seen. Leo is also pretty awesome in his stoic way. He's dependent and Mikey is the leader, and somehow they develop really well.

I'm not very good at ideas, though, so I can't think of anything else. Just something that was already done in someone's fanfic. ;)

[Sage Ninja]

I'm reading a lot of really good points here, especially about Leonardo from Mask and Sage.

Leonardo...
Looking back on the Season with Leo's 'dark stage', I can definitely agree that it was a very intense amount of change for him. I know that during the airing of the episodes, I really didn't like how Leo developed - it seemed erratic and didn't make sense to me. However, once I realized that some of the shows were shown out of order, that was when I was able to look back and see things correctly.

Leonardo's decline was interesting to see, but as some others said, NOBODY bounces back from something like that. I mean, I thought Leo would be gone for Several episodes. Some of the events that happened during the 'healing' process were just so unrealistic (even for a cartoon). (...)The decline (when seen in chronological order..) was very interesting and believable. I just think that the sudden flip-flop over to being perfectly fine could have been handled differently. If Leo could have been away longer than one episode, and Then see the others survive without him, that would have been a bit more compelling. But in all, Leo did have quite a season...

You know what? I really get the feeling that Leonardo agnst thing got rushed a bit toward the end. His decline and anguish was really well fleshed out and given good focus to show his inner turmoil, however I think what the writters did was that the idea of Leo's conflict ended up taking more time than what they had available to see it all the way through. I mean if you think about it season four and a lot of running concepts that had to be adressed, given due exposure and the wrapped up. We had Leo's agnst, Karai's complete turn over to evil, Hun's striking out on his own and being a legtimate threat in his own right, Bishops mutation rampage and government conspiracy, the Rat King exposure, Donatello's mutation, and then then the set-up for the ninja tribunal saga. When it came time to introsude the new "arc" of season four it was like the writters went into full speed mode and to try and wrap his personal issues up so they could move on to the next phase of the plot and cover that ground. It just seems that there was a big buildup to Leo's issues and then the story quickly switched focus to Donatello and his up coming delima, and then that was quickly delt with to bring on the tribunal stuff. Personally I think the concepts and plot ideas should havew been spread out a bit more and maybe carried over into another season before jumping into "ninja tribunal" **dodges bullets from angry season four fans**. That way each thing could have had a good meaty exposure and closure. But before any one gets me on this I relaize there iwhere time constraints and what not.