What if all we had was FF?

[Revan]

I'm interested to know what you guys and gals think. If the current 4kids turtles series had been animated in the FF style, would there still be so much dislike for Fast Forward? Or vice versa. If FF had been animated the way the first 5 seasons were, would there be as many haters out there? I mean if the stories had been similar but the style for the first 5 seasons had been the same as FF.

I've read many gripes on the drawing style and many others about the tone change. There was a definate tone change but I wonder if it would have been such a big deal had the animation been the same.

Personally, I don't mind FF. It definately isn't my favorite but it's... ok. I feel that we fans wouldn't be so divided on the matter had the animation been the same.

[Scandia]

I don't mind FF either. I would have liked it very much if it had been animated in the 2k3 style. The angular simplistic FF animation looks cheap- as if they were trying to rush things and cut corners.

However, I think most of the dislike for FF has to do with the plot, concept, and characters. Although none of those particularly bother me either to be honest.

[Spitfire]

I'd bet if the style was that same 90% of the hate would go away and people would probably like the jokes and such.

I could see people thinking the wrestling episode is "cute" but since it's done in that style they won't accept it.

People ate up that awful "Father's And Sons" episode and it's the worst episode of the series in my opinion.

[Tinuvielsdreams]

I just love the animation and darker style of 2k3 and I can say without a doubt the style of FF threw me. I wondered why would they digress to such a simple style when they had this amazing, shadowy, detailed series.
I would have warmed up to FF either right away or at least much faster if they hadn't changed styles so drastically. (plus "it's ninja time" did help :lol: )

Either way I am just happy we have gotten any of it to be honest. FF did grow on me but I when I go back and look at the 2k3 animation it is just so awesome.

Without it FF style and all would have still been pretty darn impressive too considering the last time we had TMNT on tv was the late 90s

[The Terror of Death]

I'd bet if the style was that same 90% of the hate would go away and people would probably like the jokes and such.

I could see people thinking the wrestling episode is "cute" but since it's done in that style they won't accept it.

People ate up that awful "Father's And Sons" episode and it's the worst episode of the series in my opinion.

Co-signed.

[VaughnMichael]

FF's Art style may not be that great but the episodes really have grown on me and I have to say I'm sad to see it not get the full run it was going to get especially since things where getting better. :(

[Janus Prospero]

Hmm...This is a good question.

I didn't mind Fast Forward too much. I bought the DVDs and all. It's just not as good as the original 2k3 episodes. Even the bits of humor that was more in tone with 2k3 was funny and got a few chuckles out of me.

My main gripes with Fast Forward are as follow:

The art style
The generally lighter atmosphere
The overuse of hijinx
Cody being a total Mary Sue :dead:
The way Splinter would act totally out of character sometimes.


So, I’m guessing if you fixed any one of those, the show would theoretically be better. But I don’t know if art style alone would bring over too many people. I think the majority of people are just turned off by the concept alone.

[triplexxx]

Apparently, people's appreciation level for 2k3 did take a downward slope as a resultof the FF animation style, had the animation always been such though, the amount of appreciation for the show may not have taken a down slope, but it might've started at a lower level than it did when 2k3 began. I'm ok with FF, however, if the FF animation was as neat as it was before, I might appreciate it just a bit more. Cody could've been a bit better too, but I'll tell you, compared to all those dumb, dimwitted "Mary Sues" I've seen on Nickelodeon, Disney channel, and other places, Cody's a joy.

[Revan]

Seems to be the general consensus that if the current series had been the same style as FF, there wouldn't be so many gripes. It does make sense though, it's hard to take a step down and still appreciate it.

[StealthNinjaScyther]

The art style was never the biggest problem for FF. I was never a big fan of it, but I was never terribly bothered by it either. I was really more bothered by the fact that it was part of the push to change the tone of series.

[ZariusTwo]

It wouldnt have made a difference, FF does not have the charm and humour of the original (which might have sustained it had it been the case), even if the animation was different, the general direction would still have been the same.

Deep down even FF's defendants probably don't want to deal with it anymore, whenever it "shaped up" or not, whenever it deserves to be respected and liked or not, when it ends, nobody, nobody, will honestly miss it. It made no real significant impact for the series timeline beyond closure for Baxter. So why hang over it?

[VaughnMichael]

thanks for pretty much calling me a nobody when I just stated above that I just stated above I'd sad to see it not get the full run. :P
Oh wait unless you ment you when you where speaking for everyone....
It's not just Fast Forward though I hate Next Muation for the most part and hell I wish we could have got the second season of tha also I'd pretty much say it for any incarnation of the turtles if I knew there where going to be more episodes and toys but never saw the light of day past proto types.

[Ra]

My main gripes with Fast Forward are as follow:
The art style
The generally lighter atmosphere
The overuse of hijinx
Cody being a total Mary Sue :dead:
The way Splinter would act totally out of character sometimes.
Agreed on all points. The art style is my main gripe, but even if Fast Forward was done in the 2k3 style of animation, my views would still be the same.

Also, can I just point out again that if Fast Forward had taken on board the same dark tone of the 2k3 series,things would be different? I mean...I would have tried many more times than I have now to accept it, for one. I'm sure it's not just limited to me... *stops herself from going into a rant*

[Scandia]

Neutrino- I think you may mean "FF being in the same style as the current series". If 2k3 had been drawn as angularly as FF, I would have major gripes about the art and animation. But my only criticism about the 2k3 art is that the Turtles eyes do not show pupils.

[raphael_is_cool]

I think a major problem with FF is just that it is so inconsequential. After you've seen the long story-arcs and character development from 2k3 you find that when you're suddenly thrust into the future it's very jarring. Because in the back of your mind you know that eventually they'll just go back home and that's it.

That's my view at least.

[Jo Dawn]

I'll be honest and say if all we had was FF?

I'd still hate it. I don't even much care about the animation (though knowing how much better it could be was a major turn off).

I hate Cody. I hate the silliness. I don't like it's similarities to the OT. I don't like how kiddish it is. The stories aren't interesting or entertaining.

I probably would have watched it less than I did. I was just trying to give it a chance because of the 2K3 series.

[ToTheNines]

I might have liked it if it were all we had. I mean the major thing for me was how much of a down-grade it was from the 2k3 show.... geesh, now you got me thinkin about a world with no 2k3 TMNT :dead:

[VaughnMichael]

everything is a downgrade...2k3 is a downgrade of the comics...and so on and so forth.

[ToTheNines]

Meh, I like 2k3 better than the comics. To each his own.

[Revan]

Neutrino- I think you may mean "FF being in the same style as the current series". If 2k3 had been drawn as angularly as FF, I would have major gripes about the art and animation. But my only criticism about the 2k3 art is that the Turtles eyes do not show pupils.
Either way. If the styles of the first 5 seasons had been the same as FF, would as many people have noticed and disliked the tone change?
I'm interested to know what you guys and gals think. If the current 4kids turtles series had been animated in the FF style, would there still be so much dislike for Fast Forward?

Deep down even FF's defendants probably don't want to deal with it anymore, whenever it "shaped up" or not, whenever it deserves to be respected and liked or not, when it ends, nobody, nobody, will honestly miss it. It made no real significant impact for the series timeline beyond closure for Baxter. So why hang over it?
I would have to agree. However, if FF had been the end of the current series for good, I then may have missed watching the turtles adventures. Thankfully we get another season in 08 so knowing that, I'm not sad to see FF go.

[raphael_is_cool]

everything is a downgrade...2k3 is a downgrade of the comics...and so on and so forth.

I don't even know how that works... What were the Dreamwave comics, a slight upgrade?

It's just an alternate version.

[ToTheNines]

Either way. If the styles of the first 5 seasons had been the same as FF, would as many people have noticed and disliked the tone change?

Yes, it's just plain silly.

[Spitfire]

Nobody? Speak for yourself I was just starting to enjoy the show.

And you guys claim you'd still dislike it. I find that highly unlikely. You dislike it now because you saw something better first simple as that.

[VaughnMichael]

Meh, I like 2k3 better than the comics. To each his own.
Why because you don't have to read?
Oh well I stand up for the turtles because I like the turtles I don't care what damn incarnation they are.
God I'm so sick and tired of everyone bickering over it all
I don't even know how that works... What were the Dreamwave comics, a slight upgrade?

It's just an alternate version.
No The Dreamwave comic is nothing it lasted what 4 or 5 issues and each one was a copy from an episode of the show which was a half @ssed atempt at copying the orignal comics in the first place.
So No I'd say Dreamwave was a downgrade.

[raphael_is_cool]

I like the turtles I don't care what damn incarnation they are.
God I'm so sick and tired of everyone bickering over it all

You can't say that and then call another version a downgrade. It's just different strokes for different folks.

[Spitfire]

You can't say that and then call another version a downgrade. It's just different strokes for different folks.

Yes you can, because the DW series was complete garbage, The turtles aren't even in the first 2 issues. The stories were terrible, and the only originial issues they had centered around some gangster kid who sweeps April's store's gang.

The only saving grace in that piece of crap series was the artwork. Which left alot to be desired since you didn't get many panels of the turtles. Which I buy f'ng turtles comics to see the turtles.

As for 2K3 being better then the comics. I can't use words to describe how insane you'd have to be to think that. Seriously if you can't see how the comics are better your blind or, as Putrescent said, to lazy to read.

[VaughnMichael]

You can't say that and then call another version a downgrade. It's just different strokes for different folks.
Really now? it came after the other the mirage comics came first it's better it's not as waterd down as 2k3 is and then the did the dw series it was pretty much about human characters not even about the turtles for the most part which the series is about teenage mutant ninja turtles not some african american characters because the artist had some sort of goal he wanted to acomplish by making the comics into that for whatever reason.
Mirage orignal gooood all things are based off of this.
2k3 series decent waterd down for kids which makes it a downgrade.
DW boring human stories that last for 4 issues even more of a downgrade compaired to mirage and 2k3 combined.
If it was an upgrade in my mind I would say it was we're never going to get anything better than the Mirage comics in another comic book or tv series because the tv show will always be looked at as a childrens property and Mirage is the start that all things orignate and are based from.
Yes you can, because the DW series was complete garbage, The turtles aren't even in the first 2 issues. The stories were terrible, and the only originial issues they had centered around some gangster kid who sweeps April's store's gang.

The only saving grace in that piece of crap series was the artwork. Which left alot to be desired since you didn't get many panels of the turtles. Which I buy f'ng turtles comics to see the turtles.

As for 2K3 being better then the comics. I can't use words to describe how insane you'd have to be to think that. Seriously if you can't see how the comics are better your blind or, as Putrescent said, to lazy to read.
I'm starting to believe people haven't even looked at the orignal MIRAGE comics let alone read them to have anything to base their fact they're saying.
I've got all this stuff cause I'm a Ninja Turtles nut it was and still is a huge part of my life.
I don't say things unless it's true shesh.
Each universe has things that suck in thme I wont denie that but just as there are bad things theres just as many good in each universe except say DW the series didn't even last long enough to go anywhere that's a poor choice to use.
Hell the Archie Comics started out the same way and took the comics in a much better direction than the old toon ever went.
Had the DW series done that I'd gladly admit it but like Spitfire says those issues are flat out crap.

[Scandia]

I prefer the 2k3 toon to Mirage. I am a librarian who reads voraciously, speaks 4 languages, and uses big words on a regular basis. So not liking reading or not being able to read well is a moot point. I just like 2k3 better because it is coherent, cohesive, consistent, has awesome adaptations and original plots, kept good elements from the 1987 toon, and focuses on Leonardo.

And if FF were the very end...well, at least we got 6 kickarse Turtle seasons that I can watch over and over again. However, I am glad we are getting more Turtles. I hope the next season is as GOOD as the preceding ones.

[VaughnMichael]

I prefer the 2k3 toon to Mirage. I am a librarian who reads voraciously, speaks 4 languages, and uses big words on a regular basis. So not liking reading or not being able to read well is a moot point. I just like 2k3 better because it is coherent, cohesive, consistent, has awesome adaptations and original plots, kept good elements from the 1987 toon, and focuses on Leonardo.

And if FF were the very end...well, at least we got 6 kickarse Turtle seasons that I can watch over and over again. However, I am glad we are getting more Turtles. I hope the next season is as GOOD as the preceding ones.
What We Are Talking About Mis Scandia Is Take The Issues Of Each Mirage Comic Book That Each Episode Is Based Upon And Compare Them To Each Other Side By Side You Will Then See Which One Is Superior.
Oh Btw I wasn't making fun of him by saying that just so everyone knows it was a question since out of the blue and it's new to be and shocking that people don't like comic books because they don't like reading and just like sitting infront of the tv and watching something animated and not having to use their imaginations. I think we've discoverd why the comic book market isn't doing so hot.:ohwell:
It's funny I watch my Fast Forward episode and the lost season more than anything else because they are brand new storys I've grown tired of cheap adaptions of comic storys.
And Hell I'm happy We're getting more turtles also just so everyone can complain about it all over again for another entire season. I'm just so happy I could explode.:P

[Spitfire]

I prefer the 2k3 toon to Mirage. I am a librarian who reads voraciously, speaks 4 languages, and uses big words on a regular basis. So not liking reading or not being able to read well is a moot point. I just like 2k3 better because it is coherent, cohesive, consistent, has awesome adaptations and original plots, kept good elements from the 1987 toon, and focuses on Leonardo.

Awesome adaptations? For one the old comics made plenty of sense, with the exception of the Mark Martin issues.

There is nothing old toon like about 2K3. And the #1 reason for that is Laird's disposition against it. And in his defense I can see why he dislikes it, they took his totally violent adult comic book and turned it into a kids show. I mean yeah I like the old toon don't get me wrong but if that was my creation being turned into that I would be pretty pissed to.

What isn't coherent about the comics? Or consistent? It follows the life of the turtles as it happens. It's one huge story arc.

I won't argue that there's awesome originial episodes, to be honest that's the #1 thing I like about 2K3. The comic episodes just piss me off because they fall short. I'Monster is still an exception but it plays out differently and I like it for different reasons then the comic version.

[VaughnMichael]

Or how about for the simple Fact that if that there was no Mirage Comics to base these episodes off of there WOULDN'T BE ANY EPISODES IN THIS NEW SERIES.
Something to think about here folks.:) ;)

[ToTheNines]

Why because you don't have to read?


No, I can't really explain it. The main thing is characterization, it took a while for Vol. 1 to start giving the turtles more personality, they seemed so "general" in the first few issues.

[raphael_is_cool]

Really now? it came after the other the mirage comics came first it's better it's not as waterd down as 2k3 is and then the did the dw series it was pretty much about human characters not even about the turtles for the most part which the series is about teenage mutant ninja turtles not some african american characters because the artist had some sort of goal he wanted to acomplish by making the comics into that for whatever reason.

Okay. You've stated your reasons for not liking the 2003 show but just because it's apparently watered down that doesn't make it all bad. I don't view the 2k3 show as a downgrade.

Okay, it's not as adult as the comics, and I do love the comics for more reasons than just that, but the show at least has consistency. Vol 1. became more of an anthology series with a lack of big story arcs, or twists and turns while Vol 2. and 3. got cancelled during their run.

The comics give us the original TMNT in dazzling form and some really brilliant stories by some fantastic writers and artists (Laird and Eastman especially) with no holds barred on violence. If that's what floats your boat, that's fine. I love the comics for those reasons as well.

But the new toon has given us a completely different universe and has done fantastic things considering it is a saturday morning cartoon. The plotting has been outstanding and included some wonderful story arcs and well-observed character moments. The original concept has been taken to a whole other level given the creative team's commitment and direction, as well as imagination.

I couldn't say I prefer one over the other but I love both for different reasons and that's something to perhaps consider.

[Spitfire]

No, I can't really explain it. The main thing is characterization, it took a while for Vol. 1 to start giving the turtles more personality, they seemed so "general" in the first few issues.

I won't argue with that but in the first few issues it was intended to be nothing more then a joke. They all acted the same because they had no idea they were really going to go anywhere with the series.

The fact the cartoon establishes this faster is solely due to them knowing where it was going in the first place.

[Scandia]

In the NT the Turtles like pizza (especially Mikey), wear multicolored bandannas, and say Cowabunga. Just like in the OT. Things that the OT started and every medium after that (Archie, movies, NT) has kept.

[Spitfire]

In the NT the Turtles like pizza (especially Mikey), wear multicolored bandannas, and say Cowabunga. Just like in the OT. Things that the OT started and every medium after that (Archie, movies, NT) has kept.

Um they say Cowabunga and love pizza in the comics as well. They make references to pizza as the food they eat all the time.

The multicolor bandannas were needed and the fact they decided to keep them in all the other mediums is due to the fact that they needed a way to distinguish the turtles so people don't get confused. In the comics they had a cleaver way of always having something in the panel to tell you which one is speaking, or even addressing the turtle. You'd think that would be easier in a TV series since there's dialog but then you'd have to have a turtle talk everytime for you to know which one is which if they didn't have their weapons.

If you notice they didn't keep their letter belts however.

[ToTheNines]

In the NT the Turtles like pizza (especially Mikey), wear multicolored bandannas, and say Cowabunga. Just like in the OT. Things that the OT started and every medium after that (Archie, movies, NT) has kept.

No, you see them eating pizza a few times through out the series, but all teenagers eat pizza. The bandana thing is established and here to stay, it's not really taking a page out of the OT's book. And Mikey's few cowabunga's are just homages (Idk about Raph's in the wrestling episode tho :ohwell: )


I won't argue with that but in the first few issues it was intended to be nothing more then a joke. They all acted the same because they had no idea they were really going to go anywhere with the series.

The fact the cartoon establishes this faster is solely due to them knowing where it was going in the first place.

Right. And I see where your coming from with the whole adaption thing, but with me, I saw the episodes before I started reading the comics (I'm guessing it's opposite with you) except for issue 1. I did however read every synopsis of the Vol. 1 issues, so whenever I recognized an adaption, I though "cool" instead of "wtf are they doing?"

[Jo Dawn]

And you guys claim you'd still dislike it. I find that highly unlikely. You dislike it now because you saw something better first simple as that.

Actually, no, I really still wouldn't like it. It's silly and kiddish, both things I fairly much loathe. And there's Cody. I despise him. No real plot or important storylines.

[VaughnMichael]

Okay. You've stated your reasons for not liking the 2003 show but just because it's apparently watered down that doesn't make it all bad. I don't view the 2k3 show as a downgrade.

Okay, it's not as adult as the comics, and I do love the comics for more reasons than just that, but the show at least has consistency. Vol 1. became more of an anthology series with a lack of big story arcs, or twists and turns while Vol 2. and 3. got cancelled during their run.

The comics give us the original TMNT in dazzling form and some really brilliant stories by some fantastic writers and artists (Laird and Eastman especially) with no holds barred on violence. If that's what floats your boat, that's fine. I love the comics for those reasons as well.

But the new toon has given us a completely different universe and has done fantastic things considering it is a saturday morning cartoon. The plotting has been outstanding and included some wonderful story arcs and well-observed character moments. The original concept has been taken to a whole other level given the creative team's commitment and direction, as well as imagination.

I couldn't say I prefer one over the other but I love both for different reasons and that's something to perhaps consider.
See You've got me Wrong I do love 2k3 I love everything about ninja turtles I've stated this tuns of times I even like some episodes of the next mutation.
Actually, no, I really still wouldn't like it. It's silly and kiddish, both things I fairly much loathe. And there's Cody. I despise him. No real plot or important storylines.
Jo Did you even really watch the show be honest? because the entire season of FF had 4 story lines going on if not more.
And Cody isn't even in every single episode especially on the latest dvd that came out.
Also what's the point of watching a childrens show then saying it's silly and childish?
You Know as much as anyone else the turtles won't ever be looked at beyong a kids show on tv and it's because of the 80's cartoon.
Right. And I see where your coming from with the whole adaption thing, but with me, I saw the episodes before I started reading the comics (I'm guessing it's opposite with you) except for issue 1. I did however read every synopsis of the Vol. 1 issues, so whenever I recognized an adaption, I though "cool" instead of "wtf are they doing?"
See thats the thing we're not going wtf are they doing it's just that we're saying if you lay the episode out next to the comic it's just not as good.
It's not that the episodes are bad I think you guys are really missunderstanding what we're saying here.
I really can't wait for all the new negative reasons people will come up with to hate the next version of turtles that will be on tv though.

[Rooish]

My issue is that FF wouldn't feel like the TMNT to me. You can stick anyone in the future. They could be people just as easily. They aren't special if everything is a mutant or an alien.

That was my problem with the new TMNT movie, too. It could really have been anybody in that plot.

[VaughnMichael]

My issue is that FF wouldn't feel like the TMNT to me. You can stick anyone in the future. They could be people just as easily. They aren't special if everything is a mutant or an alien.

That was my problem with the new TMNT movie, too. It could really have been anybody in that plot.
Yet your user image is from the movie? heh but I do agree about the movie at least.
Nothing against you but I find it funny how people bash the idea of them being in the future in the cartoon but it's on when done by peter laird in the comics. I just don't get people it seems like the fans are never happy.:ohwell:

[triplexxx]

It'd have been miles beneath "special" to have four humans fighting the Generals in the climax.

[Rooish]

Yeah, my user image is from the movie ... I like that image though! Let me have my fun ... I never denied that the new movie had awesome animation/character designs/VAs and ... some good scenes.

In fact, now that I've seen the deleted scenes and read some Munroe interviews and heard some of his commentaries, I think it's pretty poignant that he had such truly good ideas for the movie that were mostly butchered by those in charge. I wouldn't have minded the monsters so much if I'd felt like it was actually a Turtles movie and not a good-guys-fighting-monsters-with-brief-awesome-Leo-Raph-fight-scene movie. But that's what it felt like to me and that's what FF feels like to me. I don't hate either ... FF is pretty funny and I enjoy it. It just doesn't really feel like it was moulded around the Turtles. Could have been anybody.

And I don't even like it when Peter Laird does it. The TMNT comics I liked best are the ones that weren't too outrageous and didn't have too many monsters/mutants. I know that's a bit stupid, since the Turtles themselves are completely outrageous and all the comics had some far-fetchedness. But ... well ... I'm a sucker for "Return to New York" and "City at War" and "Sons of the Silent Age" and other ones that are really dark and Turtle-centric and/or the ones that point out how unique and alone the Turtles are. Even though they are all sci-fi to an extent.

The Turtles just aren't as special if there are too many monsters/mutants besides them, and I don't care if Peter Laird disagrees; I can't change things, anyway. I still enjoyed his Volume 4 comics for what they were. I thought they had good character development.

Maybe I complain too much, but ... I didn't mean to? I thought my previous post was pretty innocent. I just mentioned the problem I would have had with FF. I'm so glad we got 2k3; it's the best thing to happen to the Turtles since the old comics, in my opinion.

Edit: Oh yeah, Spitfire, I totally agree about the Dreamwave comics! Good art, though.

[ToTheNines]

It'd have been miles beneath "special" to have four humans fighting the Generals in the climax.

What he meant was you could have had four teenage boys go through the same story (it would still be a fantasy film of course), which is somthing you can't really say about most TMNT stories. But, I still love it.

[Jo Dawn]

Jo Did you even really watch the show be honest? because the entire season of FF had 4 story lines going on if not more.
And Cody isn't even in every single episode especially on the latest dvd that came out.
Also what's the point of watching a childrens show then saying it's silly and childish?
You Know as much as anyone else the turtles won't ever be looked at beyong a kids show on tv and it's because of the 80's cartoon.



Yep, I sure watched it. Ever long, suffering unfunny moment of it. And so I could have an opinion of it without people saying 'you never saw it!!!!111!'.

Cody being in it AT ALL is enough to make me loathe it. Along with some OOC moments... And many other things.

We all know children's shows can be GOOD. Not childish, not silly. There are tons of examples to show that.

And I loathe the idea that people must judge on one medium as the starting point, especially when they are wrong and it's a not-great starting point to begin with. People need to be educated and, you know, read, lol.

[VaughnMichael]

Yep, I sure watched it. Ever long, suffering unfunny moment of it. And so I could have an opinion of it without people saying 'you never saw it!!!!111!'.

Cody being in it AT ALL is enough to make me loathe it. Along with some OOC moments... And many other things.

We all know children's shows can be GOOD. Not childish, not silly. There are tons of examples to show that.

And I loathe the idea that people must judge on one medium as the starting point, especially when they are wrong and it's a not-great starting point to begin with. People need to be educated and, you know, read, lol.
Did you never enjoy cartoons as a kid?
Cause you may say cartoons today can be epic and all of that but cartoons in the first place where never like that.
I just think it's funny everyone wants cartoons to be soap operas today.
I say let the kids have fun we try to make children grow up way to fast these days by making everything for adults.

[Jo Dawn]

I did enjoy cartoons as a child. ALOT of them, but not all. I wasn't a fan of 'silly' then, either, though. So...

And I'm all for not making kids grow up to fast, but I'm also against making EVERYTHING kid-friendly. Makes it suck for those of us without kids or who don't like silly kid-things.

[ToTheNines]

Did you never enjoy cartoons as a kid?
Cause you may say cartoons today can be epic and all of that but cartoons in the first place where never like that.
I just think it's funny everyone wants cartoons to be soap operas today.
I say let the kids have fun we try to make children grow up way to fast these days by making everything for adults.

In her defense, she isn't a kid anymore. But , I do know what you mean and your'e right.

[Revan]

My issue is that FF wouldn't feel like the TMNT to me. You can stick anyone in the future. They could be people just as easily. They aren't special if everything is a mutant or an alien.

That was my problem with the new TMNT movie, too. It could really have been anybody in that plot.

I see what you mean. The turtles are not aliens. They are special. They are mutants who would not even exist if it weren't for a freak accident. That alone makes them special. The fact that they were one drop away, one glass jar away, one storm drain away from never existing. And then you get all these aliens in which there is nothing miraculous about their origin and throw the turtles in the mix with them. Now we have 4 turtles destined for greatness fighting bumbling street phantoms. Am I even making any sense anymore?:ohwell: :lol:

[VaughnMichael]

I did enjoy cartoons as a child. ALOT of them, but not all. I wasn't a fan of 'silly' then, either, though. So...

And I'm all for not making kids grow up to fast, but I'm also against making EVERYTHING kid-friendly. Makes it suck for those of us without kids or who don't like silly kid-things.
That's why we have Adult cartoon and Cartoons For children.
I'm in no way bashing you Joe or what you believe I just find it silly that you think all cartoons should be one way because you think they should be.
Most cartoons are made for children I wouldn't expect anything less from a company called 4kids you know?
And I'm not saying you want kids to grow up to fast but I'm saying we as a society expect way to much of children at this point i look at the stuff 12 year old girls are wearing walking down the street and I think to myself lord they look like hookers...that's all I'm saying I like my kids cartoons to be that and my adult cartoons like family guy and aqua teen to be that for adults.
I know allot of fans who wont be happy untill every small bit of the old cartoon and any silly in the turtles world is a past thought but I'm sorry to break this news but it's gonna be here for a long time because so many kids grew up with that as their ideal version of tmnt.
I can't blame 4kids for trying to do the same even if they failed at it with the new series as a whole.
In her defense, she isn't a kid anymore. But , I do know what you mean and your'e right.
Exactly so why should some one care what's on a childrens tv program as long as it isn't teaching them bad things? eh?
Yeah so many people cry about how cartoons like Fosters & Sponge Bob are stupid or that it doesn't make any sence has anyone stoped to think that kids find shows like these entertaining because they're silly and goofy and it's nice even for an adult like me to sit down with my little cousins and enjoy them and laugh with them and get away from this horrible world we live in even if it's for a half hour.

[Jo Dawn]

...Does it surprise you that I cannot stand Spongebob? Hahah ;)

The cartoons don't have to be 'adult'. They can be for kids. But they just shouldn't be idiotically stupid. Kids are smart (well...) and I don't think a cartoon has to be so stupid to be a 'kid's cartoon'. It doesn't have to be adult or 'soap opera-ish' (which I also hate, by the way). Just not mind-numbingly stupid.

But, that doesn't matter I suppose. We're out of the age of actual reading for fun and learning and all that. I guess 'stupid entertainment' is where it's at. Check out reality tv. Hah.

Anyhow. It's off topic, I suppose.

[VaughnMichael]

...Does it surprise you that I cannot stand Spongebob? Hahah ;)

The cartoons don't have to be 'adult'. They can be for kids. But they just shouldn't be idiotically stupid. Kids are smart (well...) and I don't think a cartoon has to be so stupid to be a 'kid's cartoon'. It doesn't have to be adult or 'soap opera-ish' (which I also hate, by the way). Just not mind-numbingly stupid.

But, that doesn't matter I suppose. We're out of the age of actual reading for fun and learning and all that. I guess 'stupid entertainment' is where it's at. Check out reality tv. Hah.

Anyhow. It's off topic, I suppose.
We've had stupid programs & Characters for a very long time people love stupidity. & I dislike Spongebob also it was just an example of shows kids love that are ultra silly.

[Jo Dawn]

We've had stupid programs & Characters for a very long time people love stupidity.

Yeah... I know, unfortunately. It explains so much, no? ;)



(And not this person.)

[VaughnMichael]

Yeah... I know, unfortunately. It explains so much, no? ;)



(And not this person.)
It does for me with my music and art at least and the things i post on my own sites people look at images they don't read, and people would rather have things made easy for them it's no one's fault but our own societies though.
hahah at least we can agree on something ;)

[ZariusTwo]

I say let the kids have fun we try to make children grow up way to fast these days by making everything for adults.

And that's why we have Puca, because of people like you who get the wrong posistions in the right companies APPROVING that s*ite thinking they know what children think. It's a tired, useless mentality

[ToTheNines]

Back on topic (kinda), I've got a perfect comparison for how stupid the premise of FF is:

Say the next issue of X-men comes out, and immidiatley you notice the art is garbage. You read on to discover that the main team has been accidentally trasnported to the future by the mary sue great grandson of Collosus and Shadow Kat. In the future, their is no mutant oppression and Stryker has become President of some retarted alliance. As the X-men go about fighting uninspired new villians and a fat guy who wants to run a big corperation, Wolverine, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Beast and Storm go around yelling "It's mutant time!" and Xavier sits around and acts nothing like himself.

Do you think X-men fans would stand for this for one second? NO. Now this series did grow on me (1 because it's TMNT and 2 because it actually got better as time went on) but it's just a friggin stupid idea.

[Masked Ninja]

If FF had had the same art style as 2k3, I wouldn't have been instantly repulsed by it, true. So I probably would have given it more of a chance (as I tried to do anyway by watching the first three episodes). But once the "updated" weapons came out, I probably would have begun doubting. I freely admit that I haven't watched the rest of FF, but I'll ask this: have the future-type weapons ever been any more useful than the Turtles' old weapons would have been? Or do they do more than just glow? Besides the weapons, I think there would have been an overall sick feeling of "I don't like where this is going..."

Now, I thought a few ideas within the premise (the different environmental zones for one, if that had been explored for its darker, more serious implications - like what happens to poor aliens who can't afford spiffy gear?) were cool, but overall... it takes the turtles away from everything that I like about them, mostly their need to hide in the shadows as ninja (because if someone sees them, who cares?), and the loss of all their classic friends and allies. Even New York isn't really New York anymore.

I do plan to watch FF eventually, just to get a final and informed opinion on it (and especially since people say it does get better as it goes). But I gotta say, what I saw in the first three episodes doesn't exactly excite and motivate me.

As for the "but it is meant for kids, y'know" topic... there are plenty of shows that have very simple humor and require little thought to be amused by them. When the occasional dramatic gem like 2k3 and (IMO) Avatar or Gargoyles come along, people who like drama will go for those. It's why we have different genres, yes? (hint: "Animation" is not a genre) So the main thing that bugs me about Fast Forward is that 2k3 was doing the "drama + bits of humor" thing quite well, and FF felt the need to dilute itself to be more "accessible." And it may have gained some younger viewers, but at the cost of many people who liked the series for what it had been.

So I guess to sum up, the art style is only really scratching the surface of what bothers me about Fast Forward. I do plan on actually watching the whole season to try and find redeeming qualities, though. When I can get up the nerve. :trazz:

[Spitfire]

Yeah the idea isn't very good but it was planned to happen in 2K3 anyways. That's where my issues with it go away. Look at the stories, just look beyond the silliness and the animation.

How jacked up is it that Daruis is trying to kill his own family so he can be in control of the company?
How wicked was Konabo's plan? I mean turning the entire planet into his slaves so he can suck it dry. That's a pretty cool concept.

The Dark Turtles as well, savage evil clones of the turtles who look pretty cool to match.

A guy who can download the ability to kick the crap out of the turtles into his head, steal peoples bodies, and hack anything. I always saw him as a spoof of The Matrix.

Then you got Zixx the ultimate bounty hunter who dupes the turtles into doing stuff for him.

Also the Gunjin this warrior race we know little about other then they were captured by Darius and being treated as slaves.

Now yes the way these episodes were executed were kiddy for the most part I won't argue that. Yeah the art style is pretty bad compared to 2K3*It started to grow on me though* but when you look at the core of it if Laird was allowed to make this show the same way the previous seasons had been made it would have been a pretty bad ass season.

I accept the tone change and respect what he had to do to air this season and that is the reason why.

[VaughnMichael]

And that's why we have Puca, because of people like you who get the wrong posistions in the right companies APPROVING that s*ite thinking they know what children think. It's a tired, useless mentality
Dude children don't all like the same thing and I know children like differnt things not everything has to be the same thing all the time.
I don't see why everyone wants everything to be dark and broding all the time I like having a mix of both I find it funny this coming from some one who would defend the old ninja turtles cartoons to the death.
People really have forgotten what cartoons where all about entertainment sure we have out crazy death killer cartoons, we have our idiodic homer simpsons and peter griffins for teens and adults, I know tuns of kids, teens and adults who watch all kinds of cartoons including myself it's pretty much the only thing on tv that I watch.
And you know me so well because? If it wa sup to me the turtles would be a cartoon on sundaynights on fox with the other big toons for adults and they would get cut and face real villians and go through other storys just like in the comic not the namby pamby crap that they did in 2k3's atempt I'd also hire a a good comedy writting team to toss a few good jokes in there.
shesh get of your high horse and come down to earth man.

[odupianist]

I think a major problem with FF is just that it is so inconsequential. After you've seen the long story-arcs and character development from 2k3 you find that when you're suddenly thrust into the future it's very jarring. Because in the back of your mind you know that eventually they'll just go back home and that's it.

That's my view at least.

That's what happens when you get shoved in to the future. The future is full of short stories and short story arcs. Sometimes there aren't even story arcs in the future. It's just a fact.

EDIT: oh and my two cents on the original topic (now that most of you have forgotten it or moved on to something totally different), I think if we had had the angular style first but the same story lines, I think we would have still liked it. I still don't like the art style, but I've sucked it up bc it is turtles. I think someone said it already, but the reason some of us don't like the angular style is because we had some damn good art beforehand with the 2k3 series. And as for DW, it was great art, lame stories. Although I wish I could have seen the sentient mouser story. Okay I'm done.

[Masked Ninja]

The weird thing about Dreamwave is I rather liked the stories (alternate perspectives are fun for me to see, even though some of that stuff was kinda weird) and except for the Turtles, didn't really like the art.

And yeah, I will admit that if I consider the FF art style alone, I was influenced in my opinion by it being a step down from the 2k3 'toon. Heck, I didn't even like that style much at first before I became aware that there was more to TMNT than the old 'toon.

[Jo Dawn]

So the main thing that bugs me about Fast Forward is that 2k3 was doing the "drama + bits of humor" thing quite well, and FF felt the need to dilute itself to be more "accessible." And it may have gained some younger viewers, but at the cost of many people who liked the series for what it had been.



Well put.

Look at the stories, just look beyond the silliness and the animation.

How jacked up is it that Daruis is trying to kill his own family so he can be in control of the company?
How wicked was Konabo's plan? I mean turning the entire planet into his slaves so he can suck it dry. That's a pretty cool concept.

You can look at the 'ideas' for the stories all ya want. But what counts is how they actually DID them. The fact is that they were horribly, poorly done. No emotional depth, no character development... One of the things that truly bugs me is how they dropped the ball on almost EVERYTHING that had to do with FF. We all know they could have done better than that drivel, and that is a shame. Truly. FF could have been so much more.


...Wow, I've got half a mind to take the ideas myself and make something of them, hahah...

[Spitfire]

You can look at the 'ideas' for the stories all ya want. But what counts is how they actually DID them. The fact is that they were horribly, poorly done. No emotional depth, no character development... One of the things that truly bugs me is how they dropped the ball on almost EVERYTHING that had to do with FF. We all know they could have done better than that drivel, and that is a shame. Truly. FF could have been so much more.
Please don't say anymore, I might puke from laughing. You must have watched 2K3 with your eyes closed then. That or you never read the comic book and "assume" the comic adapts are faithful.

You want to see poorly done episodes watch "Father's And Son's"

...Wow, I've got half a mind to take the ideas myself and make something of them, hahah...
I'd LOVE to see you do that.

[VaughnMichael]

ok seriously I laughed at things in the old toon and the retarded next mutation more than I did ever in the 2k3 show but hey golly gee I gues people aren't allowed to have a love for humor anymore everything gotta be so dark like this sad world we live in right now.
But anyway I wanted to kill Michaelangelo to be honest he was more annoying than anything you can understand why they made raphael hate him in the show.
Actully damn it all I just realized I do enjoy seeing Raph own Michaelangelo "Now that's funny"!
...Wow, I've got half a mind to take the ideas myself and make something of them, hahah...
And yeah really oh wow! I'm excited to see you're awsome Fast Forward story now Jo so get crackin you've got work to do you don't want to dissapoint your fans oh and don't forget to make it late every month.

[Jo Dawn]

Please don't say anymore, I might puke from laughing. You must have watched 2K3 with your eyes closed then. That or you never read the comic book and "assume" the comic adapts are faithful.

Nope. I've read the comics and watched 2K3. Whilst I never totally agreed with 2K3's take on some things, it is vastly superior to FF.

Though I'm not quite sure how what I said had to do with the comic... Or 2K3, really. I was merely pointing out FF's misgivings. And you must admit that they could have done better. In all aspects. It was a called in effort. You say to "just look beyond the silliness and the animation"... but if it were TRULY good, as you claim, then we wouldn't have to 'look past' anything to get to the good stuff.


I'd LOVE to see you do that.

Good. I just might. :)

[Jo Dawn]

ok seriously I laughed at things in the old toon and the retarded next mutation more than I did ever in the 2k3 show but hey golly gee I gues people aren't allowed to have a love for humor anymore everything gotta be so dark like this sad world we live in right now.

Hey, I love humor, don't get me wrong. But it shouldn't have to be 'stupid'. It doesn't all have to be dark and depressing... It's just gotta be, well, good. Or well done, at least.

[VaughnMichael]

Or we could all just shut up about it already instead of making 50 thread and getting p1ssy at each other and realize we don't like the same things, we don't have to and we're never going to.
but really It's called a difference of opinion *gasp*
I'm sick of having to talk about the show because I and a few others actully enjoyed it as much as I am sick of seeing everyone bash it I'm sick of talking about it at all none of us will even be talking about it in the next year so I don't even see what all the big stink and fighting about it is?
Hey, I love humor, don't get me wrong. But it shouldn't have to be 'stupid'. It doesn't all have to be dark and depressing... It's just gotta be, well, good. Or well done, at least.
Yes and the writters have yet to acomplish this they need to hire a comdey writter if they want good jokes not mikey being the center of attention acting like an idiot and them me laughing my ass off at whats not suposed to be funny because I want to see the little annoyance in pain.
I also wouldn't call of FF's humor stupid I loved Serlings comments about the turtles I haven't laughed that hard at comments in a turtles cartoon since the old show.
I'd say if they could mix the humor of FF or hell even the old toon and the story telling of 2k3 we'd have a great show but it's not going to happen I believe because we'll ever get a seriously silly show or a really dark show which we've been given both now.
But hell perhaps in 2008 they will suprise the hell out of me I'd like to have some new storys though that's one of the main reasons I enjoyed FF I got tired of the comic book adaptions and them not really doing the issues justice or changing things.
Me though I like it you don't it's ok I'm just sick and tired of talking about it and having to see it every time some one posts anything about the show.
I don't care for the new movie but do you see me bothering the people in the new movie section? hell no because I respect their enjoyment of the movie and don't want to kill the joy they have for it understand?

[Spitfire]

Nope. I've read the comics and watched 2K3. Whilst I never totally agreed with 2K3's take on some things, it is vastly superior to FF.

Though I'm not quite sure how what I said had to do with the comic... Or 2K3, really. I was merely pointing out FF's misgivings. And you must admit that they could have done better. In all aspects. It was a called in effort. You say to "just look beyond the silliness and the animation"... but if it were TRULY good, as you claim, then we wouldn't have to 'look past' anything to get to the good stuff.

I had to at first yes, that's why I'm telling you to. After I looked past it and got into the series I started to like it. And then I didn't have to look past it at all. After seeing a few GOOD episodes I went back and watched the ones I used to think were bad and I started to like them.

It isn't great but I'll take new original episodes with stories I like to bad comic adapts any day. Because in 2K3 that's what I loved, the new stories ruled and FF was all new stories. While some were pretty bad none were as bad as some of the 2K3 episodes. Especially the baby turtles one, or any toddler turtles ones.

[Jo Dawn]

I agree that Mikey needs to get OUT of the spotlight, lol. (Sorry, bro.)

And I've admitted that Serling had some of the best lines... And the ONLY ones that made me chuckle at all, mostly... But I never equated them to OT...

[Rooish]

Jo, I mean this not in a challenging or mocking way at all; I'm just really curious what it is that makes you hate Cody so very much. I mean I'm no Cody fan, but man do you seem to want him dead. Why is that?

[ToTheNines]

Not to put words in her mouth, but probably because he's %100 unnecessary.

[Kendamu]

Going off the thread title alone, if all we had was FF then more people who only have vague memories of the OT would probably see it as a continuation of the OT. It probably would've become more popular than 2k3 ever could of that way.

[VaughnMichael]

Not to put words in her mouth, but probably because he's %100 unnecessary.
oh well I guess they can stay stuck in the future forever then :P

[ToTheNines]

oh well I guess they can stay stuck in the future forever then :P

You evil, evil man

[VaughnMichael]

You evil, evil man
haha several people here seem to think so 9 out of 10 bored (and I do mean bored) members can't be wrong I guess haha.
But yeah I know he brought them into the future but he's also their ticket home so he's not 100% pointless he's more like 85% pointless lol:lol:

[Rooish]

Going off the thread title alone, if all we had was FF then more people who only have vague memories of the OT would probably see it as a continuation of the OT. It probably would've become more popular than 2k3 ever could of that way.

Man, that's a good point.
o.O

[ZariusTwo]

Jo, I mean this not in a challenging or mocking way at all; I'm just really curious what it is that makes you hate Cody so very much. I mean I'm no Cody fan, but man do you seem to want him dead. Why is that?

He was John Cena in a previous life.

[Kendamu]

He was John Cena in a previous life.
That's good enough for me.