JC Penny to stop carrying TMNT apparel

[Jester]

http://the-5th-turtle.blogspot.com/search/label/JC%20Penney
I just read this blurb on Murph's blog about a fight with JC Penny as well as some of the clothing companies over camo prints. Comments?
I myself don't see the huge deal, but then I'm not a Mirage staffer and I am a military brat. I can understand though if Mirage says "nay." then that should be enough, but I wonder what the hubbub over TMNT on camo prints is. Oh well.

[ToTheNines]

I've never seen a single TMNT shirt at Penny's, and I hate camo. But it does suck that Mirage lost money, oh well... stick it to the Man.

[Masked Ninja]

Huh. I don't think of camo as having any political connotations. I mean, the army significance is there, but that's not necessarily tied down to one country (or is it? I guess olive drab could be a cool solid color). And I like camo as a base myself, but I guess it's Mirage's call. That design they show is pretty cool - I'd buy it.

[Roseangelo]

I've been trying to figure out where I stand on this. I think not allowing camo might be more of a political statement than allowing camo. Because yeah, the reason I would buy anything with camo would be simply because I like the colors (and when your favorite color is green, it fits right in).

[mattmanw54301]

What about the military turtles figures that came out in the 80s?!?!?! Weren't those making a political statement?

[CyberCubed]

^ Haha, very true.

There is an old "Sergent Raph" figure from the 80's toyline that you can see on the site. I think Leo had a military outfit in the old toyline too.

[Roseangelo]

What about the military turtles figures that came out in the 80s?!?!?! Weren't those making a political statement?

Yeah, but that was before Al Gore didn't become president, infinitely pissing off Peter Laird.

[Jester]

I do applaud Mirage for keeping politics to a minimum (save the letters pages) cause that's a sure fire way to alienate half of your fan-base.

[Machias Banshee]

Its too bad they had to do an all or nothing situation. I'm sure they could have chosen different designs... :ohwell: That's business for you, I guess.

[longbowhunter]

WOW...big props to Laird,Murphy,and the gang at MIRAGE for sticking to their guns. The fact of the matter is,as Murphy stated,its up to MIRAGE to decide what is and is not OK for the TMNT to appear on. The fact that so many different people tried to strongarm them into doing something they clearly didnt want to do is both sad and amazing. Not that I was a frequent customer before,but now I have ZERO desire to ever shop at JC Pennys again. Anybody else who feels the same way should contact their corporate offices and let them now what happens when they piss off the TMNT fanbase.

[VaughnMichael]

this issue was if you read it that they 4kids and giant wanted to put war icons and symobls with the turtles.
Now I don't have kids but I sure as hell don't want my kids favorite character promoting a war even if it is a bullsh1t one.:roll:

[Fledermaus]

Camo can represent so many political backgrounds. Obviously it can represent the GOP, given that most military folks will lean that way in their beliefs. It can also be associated with militaristic regimes in other parts of the world, or even the protesting ex-soldier (Vietnam vets from Santa Cruz, anyone?).

But camo nowadays is no longer a statement; it's a product -- much like the Che Guevarra/christ face or "free tibet" logos stamped onto everything alternative, most consumers don't give it another thought. It's accepted into the realm of "coolness" that rakes in the dough.

Perhaps in the 70's 80's or even 90's if you saw someone wearing that pattern you could rightfully assume that they were politically "active" in one way or another. Nowadays however, when I think of old camouflage patterns I think first of mainstream fashion for the everyman (or woman, if there are rhinestones embedded across the breasts) shopping at Target or Wal Mart. It's something you can buy in shades of pink and blue, as shorts or a tank, or socks, or a scrunchy, or a handbag.

I'm not happy that Mirage ended up losing so much money for this, but there's a temporary price to pay for siding with morality over profit.

On the bright side, TMNT at its most innovative has always been a kind of underground thing. I think, in that sense, it needs to get back to those underground routes to regain its integrity.

A combination of going too far mainstream while losing sight of their earliest supporters, for example, proved disastrous for Airwalk athletic shoes in the late 90's. According to Creative Director Chad Farmer, "The Company began to listen more and more to the sales staff and the product started to get that homogenized, mainstream look ... the number one complaint is, what happened to the cool product?" (Read The Tipping Point if you haven't already. It's very interesting.)

Also, regarding the TMNT military figures in the 80's -- I'm sure Kevin Eastman, who wrote that insane bout of Raph/Casey shooting up the town with a bazooka chomping on stogies-- was still with the Mirage team at the time. His vision of the turtles was a lot more warlike than the current it seems.

Sad though that the TMNT can't be ninjas anymore. Kind of what made them stand out to begin with. Here you have these geeky, very uncool, uninspiring, non-intimidating turtles. They get hit with the mutagen and BAM! They have muscles, a rat sensei, and ninja powers, making them cooler than the average man. The tables are turned. It's absolutely ridiculous, yet that transformation helped make the TMNT appealing to both the underground type and the mainstream individual. Ridiculous meets the real world. That combined with the family element added to their humanity. And they were cool. TMNT were very cool while at the same time, were weird and out there.

Now they're just out there. But we'll see how it goes. Perhaps Mirage has something up its sleeve.

[Roseangelo]

this issue was if you read it that they 4kids and giant wanted to put war icons and symobls with the turtles.
Now I don't have kids but I sure as hell don't want my kids favorite character promoting a war even if it is a bullsh1t one.:roll:

Actually, Mirage said no even with the symbols removed. The shirt that was approved earlier this year I have. There's nothing militaristic about it.

Wait, gimme a sec....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/roseangelo/camo-tmnt.jpg

While I don't see any harm in the design Murph posted, I also have no issues with them saying no. I only wish that they used the same "guns" to keep the integrity of the cartoon as they use to say no to a t-shirt.

[Fledermaus]

But the cartoon made no political statements. There's a big difference between humiliating a franchise and associating it with the GOP. Never forget 2k3 eps like "The Golden Puck" "Sons of the Silent Age" and "H.A.T.E." and the Mirage comics written that inspired them. :)

[Roseangelo]

But the cartoon made no political statements. There's a big difference between humiliating a franchise and associating it with the GOP. Never forget 2k3 eps like "The Golden Puck" "Sons of the Silent Age" and "H.A.T.E." and that Mirage comics written that inspired them. :)

Do you see a political statement in my shirt? I don't.

But my point really wasn't based in politics. I meant Mirage was willing to let Overload happen, a horrible idea in EVERY regard that accomplishes nothing. And now it seems like what we'll be getting isn't a whole lot better. Why can't they stand up and say no to that stuff?

[Fledermaus]

My point is that Mirage would probably rather see the TMNT in tutus than associated even slightly (in ways that most young people in the 21st century would not) with certain political regimes.

It's one thing to support a STUPID idea. It's another to support an idea that is MORALLY WRONG.

...

...

...

Note the irony in my post, Rose, and realize that we in fact have very little to fight over. :)

[JaffleMan]

I commend Mirage for sticking it through, the fact that JC penny tried to use bully tactics and threats to get what they wanted is disgusting, irregardless of whether the shirts were making a political statement or not.

Nobody should ever be forced into doing something that they are strongly against.

[Fledermaus]

I commend Mirage for sticking it through, the fact that JC penny tried to use bully tactics and threats to get what they wanted is disgusting, irregardless of whether the shirts were making a political statement or not.

JC Penny, Wal Mart, Target -- most conglomerates willing to use bully tactics. Just that JC Penny's appearance and prices make it appear to be more upscale than Target and likewise Target to Wal Mart. And yet how else will we get our clothing unless we take more time off of work and school to weave our own clothing out of hemp and ramie? Or start running around nude?

We live in a cruel, disgusting, far-from-perfect world.

[JaffleMan]

Or start running around nude?


hmmmmmmm....

:embarass:


Since that's not a feasible option I'll be still be buying half of my clothes from the conglomerates as it's affordable.

It's almost irony knowing that the processes that these companies go through to make the clothes cheap for the consumer are also the same processes that I'm morally opposed to. :(

But such is life......

[VaughnMichael]

Actually, Mirage said no even with the symbols removed. The shirt that was approved earlier this year I have. There's nothing militaristic about it.

Wait, gimme a sec....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/roseangelo/camo-tmnt.jpg

While I don't see any harm in the design Murph posted, I also have no issues with them saying no. I only wish that they used the same "guns" to keep the integrity of the cartoon as they use to say no to a t-shirt.
Oh well I have to be honest I own a camo shirt myself but because I like whats on it.
But I wouldn't buy that turtles shirt anyway I've not been impressed with a single shirt from the movie.

[Roseangelo]

Oh well I have to be honest I own a camo shirt myself but because I like whats on it.
But I wouldn't buy that turtles shirt anyway I've not been impressed with a single shirt from the movie.

Yeah, honestly I'm not that big on it, either. I've worn it maybe once. I liked the way it looked on my computer better. :lol: AND it's stiff and uncomfortable!

[Jo Dawn]

A.) Penny's carried TMNT stuff? Haha, not here.


I just read this blurb on Murph's blog about a fight with JC Penny as well as some of the clothing companies over camo prints. Comments?
I myself don't see the huge deal, but then I'm not a Mirage staffer and I am a military brat. I can understand though if Mirage says "nay." then that should be enough, but I wonder what the hubbub over TMNT on camo prints is. Oh well.

B.) Well... They're ugly. I wouldn't carry it. The camo, mostly.

[sdp]

I hate camo. I wouldn't care if I saw TMNT camo shirts I just wouldn't like them, I've seen other TMNT stuff I don't like. Especially if it was going to cost them that much money.

If I was in charge I would like to stick to a "no camo" rule as well however I am sure my opinion would change if I was going to lose a lot of money..Its not something I'd be too passionate about.

[Archon_Turtle]

That picture murph posted makes a pretty decent desktop background though :-P

I work for a game company that deals with licensors constantly. And while they can be a real pain sometimes (especially some of the families that hold older literary licenses) the fact is that it is their Intellectual Property...so who is ANYONE else to say what they can and cannot do?

[AquaParade]

I respect Mirage for putting more care into their political views then how much money they could be racking in off kids. Go Mirage.

[tmntman]

(I wrote a lengthy post with my thoughts about this over at RTM's Buzz board. And since I'm too lazy to retype all of it, I'll just copy and paste. Forgive me if some points seem like non sequiturs as they may have been addressing things brought up there.)

First of all, kudos to Mirage and Peter Laird for being willing to stick to their principles. You can try to down play this all that you want either by calling them hypocrites since they have use military themes in the past or simply saying that they already have so much money that this is simply no big deal for them. As to the latter, people who earn large amounts of wealth rarely reach a point where they don't wish to earn even more. Even if the folks at Mirage can afford to lose some licensing revenue without feeling a serious financial pinch, they are still demonstrating that they value some principles above greed. That should be respected even if you don't necessarily agree with the principle. As for the form charge that the stand is hypocritical, that is only true if you accept the premises that not supporting the war is the same as not supporting those that are fighting in the war.

To some extent, I also think that even if you do believe in the principles behind this war, that doesn't automatically mean that products such as this should be considered appropriate. Co opting military themes for your product don't actually show support for the war effort and those who fight in it. They profiteer from them. If they wanted to show support for the war and for the troops, a portion of the sale of such products should be donated to the USO or other military support programs. Personally, I think the earlier designs described in the blog entry which used not only camo, but quasi-military imagery should be rejected if only on the principle of not supporting such profiteering.

Lastly, after taking the evening to think about this I have come to the opinion that JC Penny is not the party that is at fault here. If camouflage clothing sells well in their stores, they have every right to look for products that will meet that demand. (And this still assumes that it was JC Penny that chose the camouflage design to begin with. I suspect that it is more likely that the camo pattern was offered to them as an exclusive and they only pulled their orders after the licensee failed to deliver it.) I have a much stronger distaste towards the licensee (Giant) who either offered or at least accepted a design that specifically went against the restrictions they had been given for the license (no military themes / avoid camo) and then attempted to strong arm Mirage into accepting it. According to the blog post, Mirage has been willing to allow camouflage in the past with some restrictions. But rather than work with the license holder and reach an acceptable compromise, Giant tried to hold Mirage over a barrel with the threat of losing both a buyer and all of the revenue which that would entail. While I realize that it only represents one side of the argument, what we have been told leads me to believe that the salesperson from Giant promised something he or she should not have and then tried to play the two parties off against each other. They deserve to lose the sales.

[Drtooth]

I second the "they should stick to their guns" when it comes to the cartoon series (and toys) but then again, I really dislike the idea of the shirts for kids having war imagry. I mean, G.I.Joe is one thing, but I don't see the TMNT in that sort of deal. The cleaned up, non-imagry shirt sounded great, and it seems like they were going to pull for that. But JC was the one that threatened to cancell the order.

I will say, I don't think it really was to make a political statement, but then I have a similar problem with G.I. Joe selling the idea of war to kids as fun. I like Joe and all, but I feel it's like a more PC version of Cowboys and indians. Don't want to go into it, though.


Then of course, we get the nonpolitical aspect- it's not integral to the characters. They are Ninjas, not soldiers. It has a nice design, but it's like using Transformers to sell an old Western style. There's no connection. Of course, the same could be said for 99% of the TMNT action figures, past present and Future.

But I will admit, they did what they thought was right, and I have to give them credit for that.

[Dorkfish]

Lastly, after taking the evening to think about this I have come to the opinion that JC Penny is not the party that is at fault here. If camouflage clothing sells well in their stores, they have every right to look for products that will meet that demand. (And this still assumes that it was JC Penny that chose the camouflage design to begin with. I suspect that it is more likely that the camo pattern was offered to them as an exclusive and they only pulled their orders after the licensee failed to deliver it.) I have a much stronger distaste towards the licensee (Giant) who either offered or at least accepted a design that specifically went against the restrictions they had been given for the license (no military themes / avoid camo) and then attempted to strong arm Mirage into accepting it. According to the blog post, Mirage has been willing to allow camouflage in the past with some restrictions. But rather than work with the license holder and reach an acceptable compromise, Giant tried to hold Mirage over a barrel with the threat of losing both a buyer and all of the revenue which that would entail. While I realize that it only represents one side of the argument, what we have been told leads me to believe that the salesperson from Giant promised something he or she should not have and then tried to play the two parties off against each other. They deserve to lose the sales.


Agreed. If I were in JCP's shoes, I think I would have done the same thing. They lost money on this deal too. Good for them for sticking to their own principles of not being bullied by their licensors.

If not allowing the camo print is a matter of integrity, then why allow Fast Forward to end in such an unsatisfying way (or let it happen in the first place), or, like Rose said, approve of Overload. If not for that, and for the new season looking like it will be animated by some 16 year-old with Macromedia Flash, then I could support their "integrity" shpill. Maybe this little incident will make them put things in perspective...but not likely. They can call it a matter of "morality" or "integrity" all they want, but to me, it just sounds petty.

So, like TMNTman, I don't blame JCP. I blame Giant for not changing the designs before giving them the exclusive rights to sell the camo shirts, especially since Penney's had already been allowed to sell previous TMNT camo shirts for over eight months now! I can't blame them for getting fed up over this.



And for those that can't find the TMNT shirts at JCP, they are only in the little boys' dept.

[Drtooth]

Besides, Penny's isn't all that good anyway. Everytime I go, the only shirts they have are Wrestling. I once saw a Heathcliff shirt, and never saw it again.

I do all my T-shirt buying at Target or Kohl's. Kohl's always has an impressive selection of T-Shirts that I like... Muppets, TMNT, Simpsons, Family Guy....

[Jester]

I can agree too. Giant's the big nasty here, completely going around Mirage's strict "Avoid military themes." But I also agree with the argument "camo's more a fashon than a reflectuion on the military." I don't care for camo, mainly because here people wear hunter's camo...out...in public...and not just after a day in the woods...just out. I do own camop shirtas, cause they look cool that's it. It's little reflection on my political views. It just looks cool, or is quirky (like the "Ha! now you can't see me." camop shirt I owned)

[ToTheNines]

But I wouldn't buy that turtles shirt anyway I've not been impressed with a single shirt from the movie.

Yeah, they're all just stock art with the logo...

[TheAnimatedSeries]

And they were such good little capitalists when they completely sold out in the 80's allowing the TMNT to become cookies and dixie cups. But thats good that no TMNT shirts can be on camo print, that move should have the troops home by Thanksgiving.

[VaughnMichael]

And they were such good little capitalists when they completely sold out in the 80's allowing the TMNT to become cookies and dixie cups. But thats good that no TMNT shirts can be on camo print, that move should have the troops home by Thanksgiving.
Really good comparison there.
Oh and tell me what does buying a camo shirt have to do with bringing troops home?

[Jester]

It's sarcasm pointed at the fact that the "No Camo" order is a political statement, and by so doing Peter is soooo helping bring troops home....or at least that's how I read it.

[TheAnimatedSeries]

I mean having a rule of no camo is the tiniest little thing Laird can do to allow himself to sleep at night pretending he has any integrity left, and going to such extremes to oppose association with the U.S. military (which these shirts dont even provide) is a pointless act because it will affect nothing. No bad would come out of having TMNT on camo print (other than its tacky) and no good will come out of banning it.

Its like he thinks that this is some positive act for a moral good when its just a piss.

[VaughnMichael]

I mean having a rule of no camo is the tiniest little thing Laird can do to allow himself to sleep at night pretending he has any integrity left, and going to such extremes to oppose association with the U.S. military (which these shirts dont even provide) is a pointless act because it will affect nothing. No bad would come out of having TMNT on camo print (other than its tacky) and no good will come out of banning it.

Its like he thinks that this is some positive act for a moral good when its just a piss.
Is it any suprise though? Just about anything he does these days he thinks is gold when its piss.

[Jester]

Piss is gold....:P

[Kendamu]

So, yeah, the blog was updated. JCP was just bluffing. The end.

[VaughnMichael]

Piss is gold....:P
exactly.:lol:

[Drtooth]

I mean having a rule of no camo is the tiniest little thing Laird can do to allow himself to sleep at night pretending he has any integrity left, and going to such extremes to oppose association with the U.S. military (which these shirts dont even provide) is a pointless act because it will affect nothing. No bad would come out of having TMNT on camo print (other than its tacky) and no good will come out of banning it.

Its like he thinks that this is some positive act for a moral good when its just a piss.

Well, in his defense, it does about as much to bring the troops home as holding giant protests. Which of course is nothing.

[Fledermaus]

So, yeah, the blog was updated. JCP was just bluffing. The end.


Wow............... :lol: :lol: :lol: Words fail me.

[Buslady]

Ain't that a good laugh!!! Pennys learned they can't push Mirage around!! You can't bluff 'em! XD