The cgi movie that was turned down

[The Terror of Death]

Taken from the 5th turtle blog:

"DISSOLVE TO:

EXT. MANHATTAN SKYLINE AERIAL VIEW FROM NYC HARBOR - NIGHT.

Raphael poses dramatically on the ledge of a terraced skyscraper. All his senses are acute, attuned.

RAPHAEL (V.O.)
Ah, the night air... I love it! I despise the dank, dark underground. My brothers don’t seem to mind it...

FAVOR as he scans around, sniffs the air, looks up the sky.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...but this is where I belong. Such a feeling of freedom, so much room to move about!

TIGHT on his face.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
I am Raphael, ninja turtle... and master Splinter chose me for this task...

WIDER as he prepares to leap.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...to deliver a message of challenge...

WIDER as he leaps off the building ledge into the night air.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...to the Shredder.

FOLLOW as he acrobatically, gracefully, twists and turns through the air before silently landing on another rooftop.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
Splinter told me to infiltrate the Shredder’s headquarters...

FOLLOW as he leaps to the ground, an alley near the city’s docks.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...and deliver a calling card.

WIDE as he silently leaps up and over a high, barbwire-topped fence.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
My pleasure!

PULL AWAY to show him land silently on his feet, some twenty yards behind two FOOT NINJA GUARDS.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
Two guards on the right...

REVERSE to over-the-shoulder shot past Raphael to an expansive view of the grounds of the Foot Headquarters. The two guards are to our right, on one side of a low building, a third stands to its left side. Each guard has a sheathed katana blade strapped to his back.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...one on the left.

REVERSE to tight on Raph’s face as an intense, grimly mischievous grin spreads across his features.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
They’ve all got to go.

Recognize the above? It’s a passage from a screenplay adaptation of Eastman and Laird’s Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles #1 that I was hired to write back in September.

The idea was to release a direct-to-DVD CGI film version of the comic in May 2009 to coincide with the 25th anniversary of the TMNT. The DVD would act both as an anchor for other licensees to sell and market their product around, as well as to provide a “bridge event” leading to the second theatrical CGI film slated for March 2010.

Imagi Animation, producers of the recent TMNT film, agreed to come on board. Peter Laird (and/or Mirage Licensing – I suppose the two are interchangeable when it comes to money) would finance the film almost solely out of his/its own pocket, with the hope of recouping the investment back from direct sales, the sale of broadcast rights, and potential cross-sell partner promotions (say, from heavy hitters like Ubisoft).

Mirage hired me to write a screenplay adaptation of the first issue – nothing fancy, no new frills, no additional scenes or dialog – straight. I did. It met with approval. The execs from Imagi flew in from Hong Kong to discuss both the creative and business ends, and it was decided that since the first issue (and resultant faithful screenplay) had certain idiosyncrasies that might be problematic for a film – a preponderance of voice-over; an extended flashback sequence that takes up nearly half the running time; a story that only spotlights two of the four turtles, practically ignoring the other two – I was asked to do a major rewrite, one that would strip away all the voice-over of the primary story (revenge upon the Shredder) and minimize as much as possible the voice-over of the flashback sequence, while also creating additional dialog for all four turtles that at the very least would give us intimations of their personalities (as those personalities had developed later over the course of the comics, etc.).

I did. The new draft was well received. Pete then decided that the DVD would run both versions of the story. The “A” or lead story would be the latter one, while the “B” original straight adaptation would be included as a DVD extra. Cool idea. To minimize production costs, A would utilize as much of the B footage as possible (I would then re-write A with this in mind; which I did). To further minimize costs, the soundtrack would utilize the originally commissioned Marco Beltrami score that was written for TMNT but that was later discarded in favor of Klaus Badelt’s less (shall we say) dark and moody score that accompanied the film. And of course both A and B versions would use as many “assets” from the TMNT film as possible (existing sets, backgrounds, etc.).

But when Imagi finally crunched the numbers and worked the DVD film’s completion time into their studio’s production schedule, things began to look a little dicey. For one, the budget for an all-CGI film would be between $5-7 million, even given the aforementioned “short cuts.” Everyone then agreed that the logical spot to make cost cuts would be to the flashback sequences set in Japan, and we all began to look at more traditional (non-CGI) ways to animate those sequences – everything from the type of animation used in Kill Bill, to a barely animated woodblock style similar to what is found in some traditional Japanese art, to “stage play” live action sets like those used in the “book excerpt” portions of the Paul Schrader film Mishima.

Yet even with this reduction (in whatever form it might take) in the CGI running time, the budget didn’t drop that substantially. And once it was determined that Imagi “quite possibly but not definitely” would deliver the completed film in September 2009 (they would shoot for that date, but there are almost always potential production problems to every film that could extend completion time), things began to look even more dicey. After all, the actual anniversary is in May, not September, and while that difference in a few months may not seem like that big of a deal, the prospect of the film coming due even a bit later in the year, beyond September, did not bode well for the ancillary licensing program that would circle the DVD’s release, all of which has to be choreographed as tightly as possible so as not to create a situation where licensees lose money should they release their product earlier than the film’s on-shelf sale date.

Given all this, Mirage CEO Gary R made the recommendation to not go forward, and thus Peter Laird made the subsequent decision to pull the plug on the project.

The major event anchor to the May 2009 anniversary was thus, uh, sunk. However, another, less potentially exciting (but nonetheless interesting and fun) idea has been developed, one that involves neither Imagi nor myself, one with hurdles of its own to overcome, and which, of course, I am not yet allowed to discuss in a public forum. Time will tell….

Personal epilogue: I did, at least, get paid. The rights to both screenplay versions belong to Mirage (it was, after all, a work-for-hire deal). Oh, and the working title of both screenplays was a nod to one of the favorite Bruce Lee films of my youth: Enter the TMNT."


http://the-5th-turtle.blogspot.com/2008/03/one-that-got-away.html

This is unfortunate. I hope the new idea they are working on right now is even better and actually goes through. I also hope the fifth movie is actually released in 2010.

[AquaParade]

I have to say that this news really crushes me...look through the forums and you will see that I was really expecting some kind of 25th anniversary direct to dvd in the mirage style, and as soon as we find out we almost got it, it's cancelled. Real bummer, it leaves me not able to find much excitement for whatever else is in store...but I am anxious to find out.

[Andrew NDB]

Rat fink bastards. That would have been awesome.

[gobo]

I was too upset to comment earlier. This release would have been so damn awesome... :cry:

[turkishproverb]

That would've rocked. Suh a shame.

[Ninjinister]

My inner child weeps...

[Tinuvielsdreams]

sad news...but at the same time I am glad to hear the ideas that have been out there. That Straight to DVD project really would have been beyond awesome though...

[Revan]

That would have been kind of cool. Sort of like the prequel comics for the 2007 movie.

[thebrownranger]

Man, this is what pisses the living $h*t outta me. When my hopes go up, some idiot pulls the plug on the damn thing and its done. Sorry to say that I was talking about Gary R. didn't really want to say it, but thats that. this would've bean so freakin' cool. probably better than the real cgi movie *sighs*

[CyberCubed]

Well, the one good piece of news out of this is Imagi is still interested in the TMNT. Still sounds like they're very interested in doing a movie sequel if all goes well.

[Dragon Turtle]

I have to say that this news really crushes me...look through the forums and you will see that I was really expecting some kind of 25th anniversary direct to dvd in the mirage style, and as soon as we find out we almost got it, it's cancelled. Real bummer, it leaves me not able to find much excitement for whatever else is in store...but I am anxious to find out.

Yeah, it will be hard to top an animated feature, but it'll be interesting to see Mirage give it the old college try. I still believe there will be some sort of direct-to-dvd film in the future, most likely a 2-d animated feature, especially considering Peter Laird/Mirage were willing to finance the project out of their own pockets.

Well, the one good piece of news out of this is Imagi is still interested in the TMNT. Still sounds like they're very interested in doing a movie sequel if all goes well.

Imagi aren't too big to turn down $40 million dollar projects just yet.:)

[Andrew NDB]

With all respect to the Murph and all, though, I'm left kind of wondering, having only read that excerpt alone.

What about the rest of Vol. 1 #1? Were the action scenes censored/withdrawn? Does Raph just hit the Foot with the butts of his sai rather than the business ends, does Leo just give Shredder a hard knee to the midsection rather than impaling him with both katana?

[AquaParade]

I have been wondering the same things myself...I wonder if Murphy would be allowed to give us whatever info he has on it...if they reallllly arent gonna use it;)...then wouldn't it not matter for us to hear all the little details?

On another note, I am holding out hope for some kind of 25th anniversary direct to dvd, one based in the mirage universe...lets not forget, that's the actual anniversary we're celebrating. The one way I could see this turning out better in my opinion, was if they do something really neat with mirage using 2-d animation. I'd love to see some real slick hand drawn ninja action:D I'm glad to see others thinking that the dark knight anime would be a good example of how to do tmnt justice...it's perfect, with so many different mediums I can't think of a better way to show off all the sides of the tmnt.

[TMNT]

As already mentioned, it's rather unfortunate that this project (and all that would follow it) never made it past the initial stages. After reading the excerpt and imagining just how amazing it would sound using the TMNT voice actors, one can only hope something, at least something that can evoke the same response, is on the horizon. I would love to read Murphy's original (and even the rewrite) adaptation. I doubt that will happen so at least I hope we get a few more excerpts to see where this was headed (perhaps an answer to Andrew's question). I'm assuming the first cut was right on the money (he mentions that it was a straight adaptation of the comic with nothing new added in) and that the second cut was altered (to cut down on voice overs and flashbacks not to mention the addition of equal lines for each turtle to show individual personality). All in all, some very sad news. But Murphy mentions that they do have something else planned. All we can do is marvel at what could've been.

[Andrew NDB]

On another note, I am holding out hope for some kind of 25th anniversary direct to dvd, one based in the mirage universe...

I'm holding out zero hope for such a thing... but it would be brilliant.

[GreasyBoi]

Playmates won't make toys related to this, right?

[AquaParade]

I'm holding out zero hope for such a thing... but it would be brilliant.

It honestly appeals to me more then any other form of tmnt that could be put out right now. Direct to dvd is our best chance at a pretty looking more adult themed tmnt.

[Andrew NDB]

It honestly appeals to me more then any other form of tmnt that could be put out right now. Direct to dvd is our best chance at a pretty looking more adult themed tmnt.

Probably true. It would open some eyes to the TMNT of its own source material, at the very least. Something the TMNT at large sorely, sorely needs.

[AquaParade]

Probably true. It would open some eyes to the TMNT of its own source material, at the very least. Something the TMNT at large sorely, sorely needs.

It's frustrating being an older tmnt fan these days. I always feel like we get so close to what we want, only to be kinda dissapointed or have it pulled away.

...:(:x:evil::dead:...petition!

[sdp]

did I read this wrong or does this not semi-confirm a sequel for march 2010?


as well as to provide a “bridge event” leading to the second theatrical CGI film slated for March 2010.

[Lord Nightwalker]

I would have loved to have seen this. But noooooooooo.
And, I think it's to good to waste.
Should at least purse anoughter animated venue or novelization of it.
SOMETHING! at any rate.
Makes me wonder what their cool but not as cool plan B is..
Gonna go pound the heavy bag some more..
*Shakes head and walks away*

[AquaParade]

How many of you think that their backup plan

A: has anything to do with a dvd

...or...

B: Has anything to do with mirage?( I would expect this one to be a given, but who knows.)

[Andrew NDB]

He said it would be "less cool" than that, so who knows.

[Shark_Blade]

:( Bummer. Just hope we get a sequeal movie now.

[Andrew NDB]

:( Bummer. Just hope we get a sequeal movie now.

Hoping for TMNT Part 5 the way it's being pitched now (a comedy) is only going to do more harm than good.

[Kendamu]

It's not the "comedy" that's a problem, it's the style of humor that'll thorw things back another decade.

I mean, giant turtles... Turtles!... of all creatures, being Ninja. Their origin and sensei are homages/parodies of Daredevil. Their most well-known arch-rival is a Ninja who wears bright red clothes covered in shiny metal. Even if not always red, he still wears shiny metal when he does out to do Ninja stuff.

The Ninja Turtles comic, even when it's being written seriously, goes back to a concept (teenage turtles that are mutant Ninja) that is a complete parody of what was popular in comics then and now. The writing itself poked fun at the genre.

TMNT 5, being a movie, should be humorous as it should poke fun at martial arts/sci fi movies without particularly looking like it was brought to you by the people who do the Scary Movie series.

Kind of like how No More Heroes is a video game that is a parody of video games and anime while still being able to be taken seriously by those who really want to.

That is, if it were to be a comedy.

[Revan]

Hoping for TMNT Part 5 the way it's being pitched now (a comedy) is only going to do more harm than good.

Yup. If they are going to continue to rape the franchise, I'd rather not see another movie.

[AquaParade]

Didn't the comedy idea get rejected?

[GreasyBoi]

So they will not make a cgi direct-to-dvd anymore?

[Extreme_Enigma]

So they will not make a cgi direct-to-dvd anymore?

No. So that means Playmates will not make any toys.

[Andrew NDB]

Didn't the comedy idea get rejected?

Yes. But that remains the only proposal Imagi has brought to the table.

[Kendamu]

Yes. But that remains the only proposal Imagi has brought to the table.
So, I don't get to see TMNT 5: Meet the Hamatos?

Damn it!

[Hero]

It is a shame to not see a Mirage style TMNT movie. The more serious and original side to TMNT deserves a lot more public recognition.

I hope it happens someday.

Warner are releasing more mature Justice League, Batman and Superman animated features on DVD. I think TMNT should be given that treatment and a little bit more.

===HERO

[AquaParade]

If hellboy can do it, so can the tmnt. I feel like a more mature direct to dvd tmnt movie would be somewhat like that...Idk...they just both seem like they could go in that same direction.

[Tinuvielsdreams]

Definitely! Hell Boy has had two animated movies and talks of a third...

There are actually a lot of animated comic movies out there, some of them air and they all go to DVD
Hell Boy, Ultimate Avengers, Iron man, Super Man, Batman, Teen Titans the list goes on...Just kinda adding to what hero said above cause I agree TMNT deserves a shot

I wonder if TMNT would have done better on cartoon network would we see some animated movies? I just have to ask myself this because many of them seem to end up there.

[SWAT_KAT_RAZOR]

TMNT really does need an animated movie. The Avengers movies were incredibely well-done. I think they could do something like that with TMNT. I would really like to see a fulll length movie adaptation of all the seasons of TMNT 2003. I'd like that direct to dvd movie they were supposed to do. :)

[Andrew NDB]

Animated, CGI, live-action or not, TMNT needs something that's not for toddlers and tweens in the mainstream in order to break its own self-destructive cycle. A stealth straight-to-DVD adaption of the Mirage Vol. 1 #1 is something that never occurred to me, but that would've actually been brilliant.

[Dan]

If they do a movie they should do something new I mean how many versions of the Shredder rooftop battle do we need? The most mature versions of the Turtles are the movies and 2k3 series which has pulled off some dark stuff.

[ToTheNines]

The most mature versions of the Turtles are the movies and 2k3 series which has pulled off some dark stuff.

Those two really aren't "mature", when comparing them to other childrens shows/movies youre right but... Just watch them with you're parents or someone older than you, you'll find your self cringing alot more than you normally do.

Plus you forgot Mirage.

[Kendamu]

If they do a movie they should do something new I mean how many versions of the Shredder rooftop battle do we need? The most mature versions of the Turtles are the movies and 2k3 series which has pulled off some dark stuff.
Forty-twelve to be exact. That's how many versions we need.

But, really, we don't have an actual animated adaption of the original Shredder rooftop battle yet. We have the movie version and the 2k3 version. Both are pretty good, but I'd like to see a very faithful adaption of it, too.

[Sabacooza]

I find it rather pitiful that Mirage just gave up so easily on this. I mean is it too much to ask to shop around a bit to find another animation studio to take on the project even if it's to go the 2D animation route? If I owned a specific franchise and I wanted to make a film of it and for some reason my first plan of action failed I wouldn't just pack up and say oh, that's it I might as well forget it. I'd keep searching for the next company that could do what I wanted. Laird needs to grow a backbone and keep looking for ways to make it happen instead of taking the advice of his scaredy cat CEO.

[DrSpengler]

Peter Laird (and/or Mirage Licensing – I suppose the two are interchangeable when it comes to money) would finance the film almost solely out of his/its own pocket,

This bothers me.

He claims the comics are financed "out of his own pocket", now a movie is being financed "out of his own pocket". This makes me wonder, if everything TMNT-related is being "financed out of Laird's pocket" then...where is all the revenue from the last movie, the cartoon, the toys, the DVDs and all the other merchandise going?

Into Laird's pocket? If so, then he's supposed to be using that money to finance further TMNT projects, so why keep making a big production out of it to try and make people feel guilty?

And if the money isn't going into Laird's pocket and he IS financing every project with junior's college fund...then where the hell is all the money being made off TMNT merchandise going?

Seriously, I wish he'd quit it with the "I'm spending MY money on all this stuff so you should be grateful you're getting anything at all!" attitude. I'm sick to death of it.

[IMJ]

This bothers me.
Seriously, I wish he'd quit it with the "I'm spending MY money on all this stuff so you should be grateful you're getting anything at all!" attitude. I'm sick to death of it.

Sounds a bit like a George Lucas syndrome, eh? Maybe Laird wasn't looking ahead far enough to grab merchadising rights. You figure he would have though considering the sheer quantity of TMNT toys out there.

[Roseangelo]

Sounds a bit like a George Lucas syndrome, eh? Maybe Laird wasn't looking ahead far enough to grab merchadising rights. You figure he would have though considering the sheer quantity of TMNT toys out there.

I'm not sure what you're talking about; Peter has full control over everything, including all merchandising. I don't know how you imply that he doesn't.

And Lucas listens to fans, Laird doesn't. The comparison between the two doesn't work.

[Andrew NDB]

The most mature versions of the Turtles are the movies and 2k3 series

Not even close.

[R-iZZy]

^ LOL! Yeah seriously. Someone obviously hasn't read a single issue of the first volume's comics, or the Body Count series. Eastman and Image were TMNT at its most ridiculously violent (can't deny that I loved it).

Really, I do hate Laird's mentality when it comes to how he treats his fans. It's like I've said, I'd rather it was Eastman who had control over the Turtles rather than Laird. It was a great idea, and if I owned the Turtles, I wouldn't let some company out of Hong Kong who had f*** all to do with what made the Turtles who they are today to be the ones to tell me some idea was bad. Seeing as these guys would co-sign the idea of monsters from thousands of years ago roaming NYC undetectively, I wouldn't trust their judgment on what's good for TMNT (sorry to Munroe and TMNT fans, loved the movie, but the plotline was stupid).

This idea was probably one of the best ideas to be thought of. I always did have the idea of directing a relaunch of the TMNT movie series based mainly on the comics; from plotlines to dialogue to atmosphere (although I'd still probably keep the color-coded bandanas). Murphy tried and I'd say he did a hell of a job. It just sucks that others don't share that same passion for the Mirage TMNT in the higher ups as Murphy does.

[Andrew NDB]

To his credit a little bit, though, it is kind of heartening to know that -- at some point -- Laird was fully willing to entirely fund a 100% faithful adaption of TMNT Vol. 1 #1 on film.

But yeah... a direct-to-DVD serious, mature, faithful take on the Mirage material was something I never even thought was a possibility. Even if it had happened it would have met with some of the expected, "That's not TMNT! Where's the different, brightly colored bandannas, Battle Shell and Bebop and cowabunga?" but at the same time, would have opened some serious eyes of those not living in a vacuum.

[Revan]

And what are they holding on to anyway. Those people who were fans of the OT and do not like serious turtles probably aren't interested in supporting the franchise anymore. I'm talking about the people who were fans when the fad was huge but have no interest anymore.
Why try to appease them when they don't care about the turtles anyway?

[Kendamu]

Because they would've started caring again if the newest TMNT movie featured the OT theme, Bebop, Rocksteady, Krang, and Shredder.

There's still money to milk out of them hence the retro line of TMNT clothes.

[Revan]

I doubt very much that those who have lost interest in the fad will ever find their way back into the fandom. But I suppose they might see a movie that brought them back to those days.
I wish I had all the answers!

[Kendamu]

I doubt very much that those who have lost interest in the fad will ever find their way back into the fandom. But I suppose they might see a movie that brought them back to those days.
I wish I had all the answers!
The main complaint I heard from people who aren't currently a part of TMNT fandom who went to go see the newest TMNT movie and didn't like it cited the reasons of "no TMNT theme song, no Bebop and Rocksteady, no Krang, and no Shredder."

They wanted the OT on the big screen.

[Revan]

I heard the same thing over and over but even if it would have been an OT remake, I wonder if those people would have fell back into the tmnt franchise.

[Kendamu]

I heard the same thing over and over but even if it would have been an OT remake, I wonder if those people would have fell back into the tmnt franchise.
As a whole? I doubt it. However, I bet Lionsgate would be selling a lot more copies of the OT DVDs, the sequel to the latest movie would've been greenlit the weekend the movie came out, more people would be all over the retro line of clothes, and this forum would be a bit more flooded with OT fans who liked the new movie based on the OT.

The only thing people would really complain about after that would be that it's not live action "...like their first movie! The one that had Vanilla Ice, Bebop, and Rocksteady in it!"

[Revan]

:lol::lol::lol:
Yeah. What are we talking about again? Sure it might have made more money but at what cost?

I'm glad the franchise got away from the OT. It was fun for me when I was younger but that about all it was... fun. Yeah I know the comics are always there for me but a movie is a big deal. A dark movie would be amazing.

[Jelly Bean]

Dark ninja turtles is all I've ever known, and I think an even darker version of tmnt would be cool. I know alot of kids my age and younger would love it. I've never even seen any of the 80's cartoon.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

With all respect to the Murph and all, though, I'm left kind of wondering, having only read that excerpt alone.

What about the rest of Vol. 1 #1? Were the action scenes censored/withdrawn? Does Raph just hit the Foot with the butts of his sai rather than the business ends, does Leo just give Shredder a hard knee to the midsection rather than impaling him with both katana?

I'm actually curious about this too. After watching some of the other straight to DVD cartoons that have come out lately, like the ones DC is currently putting out, it looks like they are trying to push the envelope a little as far as violence in the cartoons, so I wonder if others might do the same.

I think I'd prefer a TMNT cartoon based on issue 1 in traditional animation though, something like that recent Justice League cartoon where they tried to imitate the style of the comic.

[gobo]

After watching some of the other straight to DVD cartoons that have come out lately, like the ones DC is currently putting out, it looks like they are trying to push the envelope a little as far as violence in the cartoons, so I wonder if others might do the same.
Violence at the expense of interesting story-telling, yay!

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Violence at the expense of interesting story-telling, yay!

I thought the two that have come out so far from DC have been great. Doomsday was good, I thought the JL one was even better.

Now the Marvel ones are pretty lousy. Makes me miss the 90's X-Men, Spider-Man, Hulk, and Iron Man series.

[Raven]

It would be very cool to see a straight translation of the first issuce in all its glory but just because they shot it down now makes me feel like it could come back up again, maybe if we voice our concern enough we could maybe get it back rolling?

Either way its nice to hear that they were planning on doing it.

[Sage Ninja]

It would be very cool to see a straight translation of the first issuce in all its glory but just because they shot it down now makes me feel like it could come back up again, maybe if we voice our concern enough we could maybe get it back rolling?

Either way its nice to hear that they were planning on doing it.

or maybe we shouldn't. Because it seems to me that when ever we rally our selves up to make our voices heard they do the exact oppisite as if to spite us any way. :ohwell:

[Kendamu]

Violence at the expense of interesting story-telling, yay!
Because you can't have violence and good storytelling at the same time, right?[/sarcasam]

[CJStyles]

Dude, I would have love to see the first TMNT comic turned into a movie. And I know it would of kicked the 2007 movie's ass

[gobo]

Because you can't have violence and good storytelling at the same time, right?[/sarcasam]
Just meant that I think that's how DC's 'experiments' with the PG-13 rating have been so far. They'd be more interesting if they weren't so preoccupied with throwing in gore or vulgarity or adult-situations into every scene.

[Andrew NDB]

Just meant that I think that's how DC's 'experiments' with the PG-13 rating have been so far. They'd be more interesting if they weren't so preoccupied with throwing in gore or vulgarity or adult-situations into every scene.

That's odd. I've seen both New Frontier and Superman: Doomsday (and Batman Begins... that's PG-13)... I don't recall any gore or any vulgarity above your garden variety "hells" or "damns" and not even much of them.

And adult situations... as opposed to what? Children situations? Is that what you would like?

[gobo]

No, I'd prefer they were more intellectually stimulating. I didn't have to think to understand these movies though. So I don't misrepresent my complaint, the PG-13 additives were more often than not gore. If you can't remember those scenes, you must have zoned out. I understand the importance of blood-spatter when Supes is getting his Kryptonian buttocks handed to him, but there's only so much you can put in before making the audience feel that the point of the whole thing is to ride the PG-13 rating 'til the wheels fall off. So, as I've said before, I just don't think DC struck the balance between violence and interesting storytelling well enough for my liking yet. Of course, I'm still giving them the opportunity to impress me with their future projects.

[Drtooth]

I think we learned a lesson today. Sometimes it's just plain best not to know any of this stuff. It drives you crazy when you think about the "what could have beens." Movies are a prime example of this.

Did you know that in Looney Tunes Back in action, the scene where Bugs Bunny knocks over the water tower, Yakko, Wakko, and Dot were supposed to jump out of it?

Did you know Uncle Travelling Matt (from Fraggle Rock) was to have a Cameo in Muppets From Space?

I could go on and on with the "what could have beens" but there are too many to count.

This is very disappointing, and it really seems it would have been better than whatever sequal idea they come up with. I'm gonna go ahead and theorize 4Kids wanted to make damn well sure the franchise was just for kids, with only a couple fan service T-shirts for the 20 + set. Same theory I have about the movie being rated PG, when PG 13 would have worked.

[Dragon Turtle]

This is very disappointing, and it really seems it would have been better than whatever sequal idea they come up with. I'm gonna go ahead and theorize 4Kids wanted to make damn well sure the franchise was just for kids, with only a couple fan service T-shirts for the 20 + set. Same theory I have about the movie being rated PG, when PG 13 would have worked.


I believe it was Warners Bros more then anyone else who were responsible for the movies PG rating, and I doubt 4Kids had anything to do with the cancellation of the direct-to-dvd project.

[tilallr1]

This is exactly what I think TMNT should have been. A complete reboot of Turtle Movies based on the orginal concept/design from the Mirage comics. Its essentially what the TMNT TV series has been. Without the awesome ninja violence & Red bandanas.

[Drtooth]

I believe it was Warners Bros more then anyone else who were responsible for the movies PG rating, and I doubt 4Kids had anything to do with the cancellation of the direct-to-dvd project.


Well, since 4 Kids is the licencer, and considering their past history with everything, you can see why I was going that way.

[TheAnimatedSeries]

Superman: Doomsday didn't impress me on any level and I occasionally felt like they were just trying to force badass elements of PG-13 into the mix. The New Frontier has some pacing issues, but its characterization and overall story were great, and the violence was much appreciated. It sounds like the rewrite would have been that kind of film.

[AquaParade]

Damn it! Why'd you have to bump this thread???:lol:

I had almost forgotten all the wasted potential.

[Newton Gimmick]

There's little to no "adult" violence in either of those DC movies. Sure, Lex shoots Mercy in the head, but even that is treated quite well. And that's the one scene the audio commentary admits was thrown in just to get some more gore into it.

For the most part, the DC movies are just Bruce Timm doing what he does best... Making awesome DC animated stuff.

Sorry just don't agree with the idea that they've thrown gore or vulgarity or adult-situations into every scene. They've kept the movies with a PG-13 theme the whole time. The stories themselves could be stronger if they were allowed a longer runtime, but I didn't find gratuitous amounts of anything in them except gratuitous amounts of awesomeness.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Justice League: New Frontier was really cool IMO, and it has me looking forward to what they'll do with that Batman tie-in this summer.

The Marvel animated movies have been really bad so far, though. I think maybe they need to borrow some ideas from Justice League: New Frontier and try to copy the art style of one of their classic comics. So far all the Marvel animated movies have made me just want to turn the movie off and re-read the comic instead.

[AquaParade]

Ah...Just read issue tmnt #1 the other day and remembered how much were missing out on...I know, I'm a downer. Anyways, does anyone have any guesses they actually think are good on what we might be getting instead?

[Spitfire]

My Dad brought up a great point today. I mentioned that all these Super Hero movies get PG-13 treatment even f'ing Transformers gets a PG-13 treatment why can't turtles. He said, "Well the turtles has been forever placed in the public eye as a kids property because of the old series. This also continues with the new series even if it is more adult."

It's sad but true. They did it right with Transformers, made the PG-13 movie then the series came afterwards, same thing with Spider-man, and Batman too I believe.

Turtles has always been PG in the movie world and it will remain that way. They need to focus on really good character driven plots and they can lure in audiences that way instead. The action angle just isn't going to work with the PG rating.

[Andrew NDB]

My Dad brought up a great point today. I mentioned that all these Super Hero movies get PG-13 treatment even f'ing Transformers gets a PG-13 treatment why can't turtles. He said, "Well the turtles has been forever placed in the public eye as a kids property because of the old series. This also continues with the new series even if it is more adult."

It's sad but true. They did it right with Transformers, made the PG-13 movie then the series came afterwards, same thing with Spider-man, and Batman too I believe.

Turtles has always been PG in the movie world and it will remain that way. They need to focus on really good character driven plots and they can lure in audiences that way instead. The action angle just isn't going to work with the PG rating.

Just nonsense. So it's been one way once upon a time, it needs to forever be a slave to that way (to say nothing of the source material existing completely in spite of it)?

Should Batman forever be chained to how it was in the 60s TV show, because that was what was "most aware" in the public consciousness in one particular generation? This train of thought is crazy, without merit, and plain short-sighted.

The way TMNT is different is... OK, we have the Batman 60s TV show and similarly we have the TMNT OS, yes? With Batman (which did begin somewhat grimly in comic books, with Batman shooting criminals dead with a gun and smiling), pretty much the 60s TV show came and went, and that was pretty much the last we saw of campy, silly, light-hearted Batman rubbish (apart from a bit of crap here and there along the way), can we agree? With TMNT, we had the original children's cartoon... and then a semi-serious movie followed by two sequels, NT:TNM, then a kiddy fourth movie, all REINFORCING the things the original children's cartoon rammed down the collective public consciousness.

My point is... with enough time, TMNT can move on, move closer to what it was in its inception in the comics. But with every kiddy incarnation popping up at seemingly every turn, the hope/movement is perpetually set back.

[Spitfire]

Batman is a pretty poor example. The 60's movie came out in 66. Almost 10 years later in 89 they re-birthed it with no current TV series to accompany it. Then in 92 Batman Returns comes out and a TV series to go with it. Batman was well established in it's ways at this point. By 95 when Forever came out PG wasn't what it used to be and the Batman series evolved up and went PG-13. It made sense.

Batman has a huge fan following, they could make a rated R Batman movie and it would sweep up the box offices. However Turtles does not have the same huge following. For one they never had the chance to make the series more serious. The first movie got away with a lot but from there it all went downhill. On top of how extremely kid focused the TV series was. It wasn't like Batman which could cater to an adult audience. Hell I was just watching an episode tonight where they were talking about busting up crack houses, you'd see anything like that in turtles.

Transformers also has a huge following, much larger then turtles, so does Superman, X-men, Spider-man, and just about every comic book hero whose not printed on an independent label. No one knew turtles was based off a comic and there's still people today who don't. Most of the people remember it as a goofy kids series with nothing adult to be seen in it. The series wasn't made to appeal to kids past the age of 12 and that's pushing it. So why should WB take the risk of making a PG-13 movie?

How would they advertise it? "Straight from the pages of the comic to the big screen!" Okay so you and I know the comic was more violent and mature but do the general public know that? No they think the comic was just as goofy as the show.

You gotta keep in mind this message board is the minority here in anything involving the turtles, we love it but the rest of the world doesn't know what we know or share that love we have for it. And turtles may be big here but it's nothing compared to cash cows like Spider-man which can be a summer blockbuster.

[Dragon Turtle]

My Dad brought up a great point today. I mentioned that all these Super Hero movies get PG-13 treatment even f'ing Transformers gets a PG-13 treatment why can't turtles. He said, "Well the turtles has been forever placed in the public eye as a kids property because of the old series. This also continues with the new series even if it is more adult."

It's sad but true. They did it right with Transformers, made the PG-13 movie then the series came afterwards, same thing with Spider-man, and Batman too I believe.


Transformers has always been portrayed as a kids property both before and after the movie whether it's the three anime series that came before the movie or Transformers: Animated afterwards, all were aimed more toward kids then TMNT 2K3.


Studios were not lining up to produce movies based on either property.

Transformers is a PG-13 movie because, Paramount and Dreamworks were desparate for a summer tent pole movie franchise and decided to take a gamble on Transformer's nostalgia factor. It was also endorsed by Spielberg and being a live action summer movie, it was needed to appeal to more then just the under 13 crowd.

TMNT was PG because Warner Bros was convinced of its viability as a movie franchise due to the popularity of the recent cartoon, Warner Bros never really considered that older fans of the franchise would be interested in a new movie. TMNT was also an animated movie, which do not possess a good track records when it comes to PG-13 releases. And someone (WB, Mirage, or someone else) had a deal with McDonalds which demanded TMNT be PG movie or else no Happy Meal deal.

[ToTheNines]

Let's say TMNT and Transformers had a relativley equal fanbase before 2007 (which they didn't)

1. Transformers was a Spielberg movie, the mastermind behind TMNT was a rookie. Point: Transformers.
2. Transformers had hot young celebrities (Labouf and Fox) which made all of the teenagers want to see it (even girls), so did TMNT (Gellar and Evans) but they were just voices. Point: Transformers.
3. Transformers had WAY more hype and advertising. Point: Transformers.
4. Transformers had great special effects that made people like my dad (who dosen't give a **** about either properties) want to see it, and it had big effin robots fighting, which made little kids **** their pants. Point: Transformers.

Rating wasn't a factor.

[Andrew NDB]

Batman is a pretty poor example.

I think it's the most valid example out there, if you kind of put aside the Batman Explosion that later kind of happened in the 90s/now.

The 60's movie came out in 66. Almost 10 years later in 89 they re-birthed it with no current TV series to accompany it. Then in 92 Batman Returns comes out and a TV series to go with it. Batman was well established in it's ways at this point. By 95 when Forever came out PG wasn't what it used to be and the Batman series evolved up and went PG-13. It made sense.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the 60s Batman series being -- for a generation, in popular culture -- the most recognizeable incarnation of Batman.

Batman has a huge fan following,

He does now. Batman was barely relevant in 1989, the comics teetering on cancellation numbers... but enough time had passed since the 60s show had ended that people going, "What a minnit... that's not Batman! Where's the camp and 'Pows' 'Biffs' and 'Zaps' and the red Bat-Phone!" didn't make any difference.

they could make a rated R Batman movie and it would sweep up the box offices.

Maybe, but you made that up.

However Turtles does not have the same huge following.

Neither did Batman, really, when Burton did his movie. My example stands.

For one they never had the chance to make the series more serious.

That's pretty much my point. They've never had a chance. Never even attempted, never once.

A TMNT comic book movie (in the vein of Iron Man, Spider-Man, Batman Begins) is something that deserves, at least, the chance to fail. I say it won't fail, but damn it, it deserves the chance.

The first movie got away with a lot but from there it all went downhill. On top of how extremely kid focused the TV series was.

This is just history that should be learned from. Going forward: TMNT aiming younger and younger while audience getting older = bad.

Though TPTB seem to enjoy that vicious circle. Shooting for the lowest common denominator time and time again, then wondering why things peter out (no pun intended).

It wasn't like Batman which could cater to an adult audience. Hell I was just watching an episode tonight where they were talking about busting up crack houses, you'd see anything like that in turtles.

The TMNT aren't and shouldn't be crime-fighters, so that's not surprising.

Transformers also has a huge following, much larger then turtles,

The Transformers are not comic book characters.

so does Superman, X-men, Spider-man, and just about every comic book hero whose not printed on an independent label.

These followings weren't built overnight. They were earned.

Let TMNT earn a new following, one not confined to toddlers and tweens but the audience it was always intended for in the first place: adults/young adults. The kids will come anyway. The kids whose parents won't let them see a PG-13 movie... ****'em.

No one knew turtles was based off a comic and there's still people today who don't.

That's not the fault of the source material, is it? How long does TMNT as a franchise need to suffer because one day in 1985, 86, Peter Laird and Kevin Eastman said, "All right, Fred Wolf, we'll let you do a children's cartoon based on our comics"?

Most of the people remember it as a goofy kids series with nothing adult to be seen in it. The series wasn't made to appeal to kids past the age of 12 and that's pushing it. So why should WB take the risk of making a PG-13 movie?

Back to my Batman analogy. 1989, the biggest incarnation of Batman in the mass media remained the 1960s TV show. Why would WB take the risk of making a PG-13 Batman movie?

Because enough time had passed, and they had enough balls to take a risk on material they believed in!

How would they advertise it? "Straight from the pages of the comic to the big screen!" Okay so you and I know the comic was more violent and mature but do the general public know that? No they think the comic was just as goofy as the show.

I don't think either you or I majored in marketing (and I think such speculative thinking ought to be left to those who did), but I don't think any marketing campaign for a proper comic book TMNT movie needs to even so much as mention it's "From the comics." But it could.

For a teaser trailer? OK, off the top of my head... just, visceral imagery, the TMNT tearing into a group of Foot, flash-cuts of various gritty scenes, the "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" logo appears and Leo's katana suddenly slices into it (the way the original Vol. 1 logo looks), blood dripping off of it, cue "Summer 2015" or whatever. TV spots could take a similar approach. If you had to have a voiceover, it could be something like, "In Summer 2015, Warner Bros. Pictures and Director so-and-so bring you the original vision of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," cue the aforementioned stuff.

It doesn't take rocket science, it just takes creativity, some measure of savviness, and balls.

You gotta keep in mind this message board is the minority here in anything involving the turtles, we love it but the rest of the world doesn't know what we know or share that love we have for it.

You're right, of course, but I think you overestimate how many active TMNT fans there really are.

The average TMNT fan (not the kind that go, "I wonder if there's any Ninja Turtles message boards on the net, why don't I find out and join some"), I think, discovers TMNT and outgrows it, to be replaced by another TMNT fan that outgrows it. And it goes on and on until whatever cartoon or toy line is currently out there is no longer accessible to even the fresh kiddy faces... then the whole thing goes back into hibernation for them to repeat it all over again in a few years.

Then there's the handful of cult fans, people like you and I. There's different sects of us, many just young at heart that just miss their childhood and cling to things from it such as it was portrayed then (maybe something in there, psychologically, for some of these fans that scares them about "Growing Up" the TMNT... for this would represent, on some level, them having to "Grow Up" as well) and others, like me, that are just gluttons for punishment that, for some reason, stick around no matter how maligned the TMNT are at large. Perhaps I suffer from battered wife syndrome... deep down, I probably am burning a candle that someday (and it won't be soon) TMNT will get better and have its day.

And turtles may be big here but it's nothing compared to cash cows like Spider-man which can be a summer blockbuster.

There's no reason a TMNT movie couldn't be a summer blockbuster. Well, there's reason now, being last year's movie put a big, fresh coat of Kid Stink™ all over the franchise for at least another 10 years.

[Roseangelo]

You guys can bicker about this 'til pigs fly.

The unfortunate TRUTH is that Mirage has done and continues to do NOTHING to prove that TMNT is anything other than a kids' property. Until someone kicks 4Kids out of Peter Laird's pockets, this isn't going to change. Speculate all you want, serious Turtles are and will be AWOL for the foreseeable future.

[Andrew NDB]

You guys can bicker about this 'til pigs fly.

The unfortunate TRUTH is that Mirage has done and continues to do NOTHING to prove that TMNT is anything other than a kids' property. Until someone kicks 4Kids out of Peter Laird's pockets, this isn't going to change. Speculate all you want, serious Turtles are and will be AWOL for the foreseeable future.

Sad... but what you say is precisely true.

When I speculate, though, I am talking about a good 10-15 years from now.

[Spitfire]

Sad... but what you say is precisely true.

When I speculate, though, I am talking about a good 10-15 years from now.

We both think and want the same thing we just have a different way of portraying it.

[Andrew NDB]

We both think and want the same thing we just have a different way of portraying it.

You're probably right.

[Dragon Turtle]

You guys can bicker about this 'til pigs fly.

The unfortunate TRUTH is that Mirage has done and continues to do NOTHING to prove that TMNT is anything other than a kids' property. Until someone kicks 4Kids out of Peter Laird's pockets, this isn't going to change. Speculate all you want, serious Turtles are and will be AWOL for the foreseeable future.


I don't see anything stopping Mirage from promoting serious Turtles, if 4kids wants to promote turtles to kids, let them it's their job, it's Mirage responsibilty to keep the older fans happy, 4kids wasn't going to stop them from doing the direct to dvd project or tell them to cease publishing their comics. You are correct in saying Mirage hasn't done anything to promote the series as anything other then a kids property, but that problem existed before 4kids came into the picture and will probably be the same when they're gone.


Sad... but what you say is precisely true.

When I speculate, though, I am talking about a good 10-15 years from now.

10-15 years from now you will still have kid series.

[Kendamu]

Seems that amongst the adult crowd the major thing that turned them off to the latest TMNT was the lack of Shredder. Even those who wanted to see Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang that I've talked to would've still liked it if the Shredder was in it but not the other OT villains.

Put the Shredder in a TMNT movie and people will watch it. From there, Mirage or whoever can do whatever they want in terms of kiddie or adult. People just wanna see TMNT vs. Shredder.

[Dragon Turtle]

Seems that amongst the adult crowd the major thing that turned them off to the latest TMNT was the lack of Shredder. Even those who wanted to see Bebop, Rocksteady, and Krang that I've talked to would've still liked it if the Shredder was in it but not the other OT villains.



I thought it was a bit of a misstep not including the Shredder in the movie (more then just a few seconds of a drawing), after 14 years away from the movies, older fans wanted to see the Shredder. A good way to satisfy those fans, as well as a way to move beyond him, would have been to open the movie with the "final" battle between Shredder and the turtles, a good 6-10 minute fight to open the movie (a better alternative then the clunky battle flashback). That would have been enough to satisfy the "Where's the Shredder?" crowd.


But from reading most of the reviews, both good and bad, the biggest problem with the villains in TMNT were that they were not very well developed, in particular the real main villains, the stone generals, who only had a few lines in the entire movie, are not seen much outside their monster capture montage, and don't even have a proper endfight with the turtles.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't see anything stopping Mirage from promoting serious Turtles,

There's plenty preventing it. Namely, the very public perception of TMNT as kiddy tripe, furthered by stuff like the latest movie and Fast Forward (the entire 4Kids series and its toy line can be pretty much lumped in here as well, but I respect the approximately 40% comic book attention paid there... taken about as far as it can go in a children's cartoon -- which is, despite what many would have you believe, very much still a children's cartoon).

if 4kids wants to promote turtles to kids, let them it's their job,

No, ****'em, they're holding back any kind of true adaptation of the TMNT source material. Though I understand the basic principle behind putting dollars in wallets.

it's Mirage responsibilty to keep the older fans happy,

I wouldn't go as far as saying it's their responsibility -- it's not their responsibility to do anything, really -- but if anyone, it's them that is holding the reins.

4kids wasn't going to stop them from doing the direct to dvd project

Well, now do we really know this? Obviously they weren't holding them over a barrel or anything, but 4Kids and their 3rd party deal merchandising deal has them in a kind of position to dictate terms like... "You do X project gritty, we ain't makin' any toys of it," vs. "You kiddify it real good like, we'll make some toys and you'n I will make some dough."

But I don't claim to be any expert in the goings-on there.

or tell them to cease publishing their comics.

No one's claiming they are. That's neither here nor there.

You are correct in saying Mirage hasn't done anything to promote the series as anything other then a kids property, but that problem existed before 4kids came into the picture

Aside from the comic book medium itself, you're actually very right. It's unfortunate.

and will probably be the same when they're gone.

That remains to be seen. Though I find myself inherently cynical, I do hold out hope that when 4Kids is dead and gone there may be more ballsy production/studios out there willing to push the envelope.

There may not be. Who knows.

10-15 years from now you will still have kid series.

A very real, very possible scenario. I hope not. I truly, truly hope not. In 10-15 years let's check back.

Seems that amongst the adult crowd the major thing that turned them off to the latest TMNT was the lack of Shredder.

Now stop right there, you're not talking about the "adult crowd"... you're talking about, "Former TMNT geeks who miss the old TMNT cartoon in the 80s/90s."

And who cares what they think? (divorce yourself from TMNT Fanboy Mode for a moment)

No illusions about it, a proper TMNT movie needs to exist/be marketed/thrive on its own laurels.

Let's pretend for a moment, you and I, that we had never heard of TMNT. I'd never read any comics, you'd never seen any TMNT cartoons, TMNT movies #1-4 had never existed. Yes, even NT:TNM had never been borne. We don't know who Splinter is, who the Shredder is, any of it.

Clean slate. TMNT had never existed. It'd never been created.

OK?

Now, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, we see advertisements for a badass, gritty, in-your-face movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," hip, with a promise of humor, grit, ninja-appropriate violence, bloodshed, and more than a hint of something deeper.

Would you see it, knowing/never hearing about TMNT? I would, with the proper marketing.

And that's exactly what TMNT needs to do. Just, enough time needs to pass without TPTB ramming kiddy rubbish down our collective throats for pop culture to kind of forget about TMNT in the mass media as being kiddy rubbish long enough to get back to what the source material was all about.

[Krang]

Batman is a pretty poor example.
I think it's the most valid example out there, if you kind of put aside the Batman Explosion that later kind of happened in the 90s/now.

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with the 60s Batman series being -- for a generation, in popular culture -- the most recognizeable incarnation of Batman.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your comparison there. Batman was a very popular comic book character that had been around for nearly 30 years before the 60s Batman show aired. The TMNT had only been around in an independent comic for 3 years and were known to relatively few people when the original cartoon aired. Therefore, most people would have had their first impressions of Batman as a serious comic book character, but most people would have had their first impressions of the TMNT as humorous cartoon characters.

Let's pretend for a moment, you and I, that we had never heard of TMNT. I'd never read any comics, you'd never seen any TMNT cartoons, TMNT movies #1-4 had never existed. Yes, even NT:TNM had never been borne. We don't know who Splinter is, who the Shredder is, any of it.

Clean slate. TMNT had never existed. It'd never been created.

OK?

Now, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, we see advertisements for a badass, gritty, in-your-face movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," hip, with a promise of humor, grit, ninja-appropriate violence, bloodshed, and more than a hint of something deeper.

Would you see it, knowing/never hearing about TMNT? I would, with the proper marketing.

And that's exactly what TMNT needs to do. Just, enough time needs to pass for pop culture to kind of forget about TMNT in the mass media as being kiddy rubbish.
One problem with your proposal: You're overestimating your audience. You have to face the fact that the very concept of walking, talking turtles practicing ninjutsu is completely ridiculous to most people no matter how they are marketed. Add onto that the fact that, as I mentioned in another thread, most teens and young adults don't take anything seriously, and you'll probably end up with a movie that people would only see to make fun of, which would defeat the purpose.

In my opinion, the best chance Mirage fans have of a dark, serious movie is a direct-to-DVD movie catered specifically to Mirage fans.

[Kendamu]

Now stop right there, you're not talking about the "adult crowd"... you're talking about, "Former TMNT geeks who miss the old TMNT cartoon in the 80s/90s."

Yes, but at the very least I'm not including those posers who were born in 1993, strike up a conversation with me about how TMNT was so cool back in the day, and try to tell me off when I don't agree that the OT that they weren't even old enough to remember was the be-all-end-all of TMNT." Those are the guys who tend to give me trouble. The people who were actually there for the Turtlemania that took place between 1988 and 1991 or 1992 (pre-Power Rangers, essentially) are the ones I normally find who can live without Krang, Bebop, and Rocksteady.

And who cares what they think? (divorce yourself from TMNT Fanboy Mode for a moment)

Nobody. Otherwise the OT would've appeared in CGI back in 2007.

No illusions about it, a proper TMNT movie needs to exist/be marketed/thrive on its own laurels.

Let's pretend for a moment, you and I, that we had never heard of TMNT. I'd never read any comics, you'd never seen any TMNT cartoons, TMNT movies #1-4 had never existed. Yes, even NT:TNM had never been borne. We don't know who Splinter is, who the Shredder is, any of it.

Clean slate. TMNT had never existed. It'd never been created.

OK?

Now, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, we see advertisements for a badass, gritty, in-your-face movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," hip, with a promise of humor, grit, ninja-appropriate violence, bloodshed, and more than a hint of something deeper.

Would you see it, knowing/never hearing about TMNT? I would, with the proper marketing.

I'd see it... and I'd laugh! "Ninja... Turtles?!" my mid-twenties self would say. "LOL," he ROFL'd as he went online to find out more about this dark comedy.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, though. I always found the TMNT to possess that Suda 51-esque level of humor/grit mix and I love it for that reason more than anything else. I just don't know how it would go over with Joe Average.

And that's exactly what TMNT needs to do. Just, enough time needs to pass without TPTB ramming kiddy rubbish down our collective throats for pop culture to kind of forget about TMNT in the mass media as being kiddy rubbish long enough to get back to what the source material was all about.

Or, at the very least, let today's kids who know the TMNT because of 2k3 and either don't know or simply dislike the OT because it's too goofy grow up a bit. Then, once Hollywood tries to cash in on their nostalgia another TMNT movie can come out that resembles it's comic roots even better than the original TMNT movie from 1990.

Either way, I can wait another 5 to 10 years to head back to the theater to see the Turtles. Right now I'm still bitter over this failed attempt at something faithful on the DTV front. Once they get it right for my TV, I'll start getting anxious about how I'm going to sneak my snacks into the theater again.

[Andrew NDB]

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your comparison there. Batman was a very popular comic book character

When? Depending on when you're talking about, Batman was in dire straits as far as sales and threat danger.

I can produce the numbers, the years.

The TMNT had only been around in an independent comic for 3 years and were known to relatively few people when the original cartoon aired. Therefore, most people would have had their first impressions of Batman as a serious comic book character, but most people would have had their first impressions of the TMNT as humorous cartoon characters.

I think somewhere you think I posted, "Everyone's first impression of the TMNT was from the Mirage comics." Where did I post this? I didn't.

I'm agreeing with you, Krang -- for a particular generation or two, the Fred Wolf cartoon is the most recognizeable incarnation and probably where people would have formed their "first impressions."

But if you're saying that more people were more aware in pop culture and society of Batman as a comic book character (whether serious or not... he bounced back and forth up until the 80s) rather than the 60s incarnation itself in the time between the 60s series and the Tim Burton movie... I'm calling bull****.

One problem with your proposal: You're overestimating your audience. You have to face the fact that the very concept of walking, talking turtles practicing ninjutsu is completely ridiculous to most people no matter how they are marketed.

And a man dressing as a bat in a wetsuit isn't? A guy in a muscle suit painted red calling himself a Hellboy isn't?

You underestimate the audience. Especially in this day and age.

Add onto that the fact that, as I mentioned in another thread, most teens and young adults don't take anything seriously, and you'll probably end up with a movie that people would only see to make fun of, which would defeat the purpose.

In my opinion, the best chance Mirage fans have of a dark, serious movie is a direct-to-DVD movie catered specifically to Mirage fans.

The best chance? Probably.

[Dragon Turtle]

There's plenty preventing it. Namely, the very public perception of TMNT as kiddy tripe, furthered by stuff like the latest movie and Fast Forward (the entire 4Kids series and its toy line can be pretty much lumped in here as well, but I respect the approximately 40% comic book attention paid there... taken about as far as it can go in a children's cartoon -- which is, despite what many would have you believe, very much still a children's cartoon).


Just because there is a kids dedicated line for children doesn't mean there can't be anything produce for older fans, the fact that Mirage comics exist pretty much proves this. Marvel and DC have no problems in producing stuff for different demoghaphics, the amount of "kiddy tripe" based on Spider-Man and Batman alone could fill the Grand Canyon. And everything associated with Transformers is "kiddy tripe", so don't give me the excuse that can't produce more mature TMNT stuff, when the fact is they currently are.




No, ****'em, they're holding back any kind of true adaptation of the TMNT source material.


No, Gary and Peter are.


I wouldn't go as far as saying it's their responsibility -- it's not their responsibility to do anything, really -- but if anyone, it's them that is holding the reins.


Umm.. if they are holding the reins, then who's responsibility is it? If I owned a resturant it is ultimately my responsibility to see that the patrons are happy and satisfied, not the cooks, the waiters, the valet, or even a third party financial backer, but me the owner. Of course being the owner I could ignore my responsibility, and then watch my resturant collapse around me and be sent off to the poor house, but as owner that is my right as well.


Well, now do we really know this? Obviously they weren't holding them over a barrel or anything, but 4Kids and their 3rd party deal merchandising deal has them in a kind of position to dictate terms like... "You do X project gritty, we ain't makin' any toys of it," vs. "You kiddify it real good like, we'll make some toys and you'n I will make some dough."


From Murphy's Blog:

"Yet even with this reduction (in whatever form it might take) in the CGI running time, the budget didn’t drop that substantially. And once it was determined that Imagi “quite possibly but not definitely” would deliver the completed film in September 2009 (they would shoot for that date, but there are almost always potential production problems to every film that could extend completion time), things began to look even more dicey. After all, the actual anniversary is in May, not September, and while that difference in a few months may not seem like that big of a deal, the prospect of the film coming due even a bit later in the year, beyond September, did not bode well for the ancillary licensing program that would circle the DVD’s release, all of which has to be choreographed as tightly as possible so as not to create a situation where licensees lose money should they release their product earlier than the film’s on-shelf sale date.

Given all this, Mirage CEO Gary R made the recommendation to not go forward, and thus Peter Laird made the subsequent decision to pull the plug on the project. "

Nothing about 4kids stepping in and throwing a monkey wrench into the works(and Murphy wouldn't be shy to say so if they did), just a business decision made by Gary and Laird.





No one's claiming they are. That's neither here nor there.


If they are as powerful and influential as you say they are, why shouldn't they step in and tell them to stop publishing their "adult" comics and replace them with adaptions of Fast Forward?




That remains to be seen. Though I find myself inherently cynical, I do hold out hope that when 4Kids is dead and gone there may be more ballsy production/studios out there willing to push the envelope.

There may not be. Who knows.


More then likely, once 4kids has squeezed every nickle they can out of TMNT, and 4kids and Mirage go their separate ways, another licensing company will step in to take on the turtles, because the turtles as a kids property makes alot of cash, it's just that simple. If you want a more gritty adult themed TMNT tv show, then you should hope that when Mirage inks this new deal they leave open the possibilty of being able to do a tv show for cable, independent of any kid friendly show being produce by the new licensor (assuming they can't currently do this under the 4kids contract).



Let's pretend for a moment, you and I, that we had never heard of TMNT. I'd never read any comics, you'd never seen any TMNT cartoons, TMNT movies #1-4 had never existed. Yes, even NT:TNM had never been borne. We don't know who Splinter is, who the Shredder is, any of it.

Clean slate. TMNT had never existed. It'd never been created.

OK?

Now, tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, we see advertisements for a badass, gritty, in-your-face movie called "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles," hip, with a promise of humor, grit, ninja-appropriate violence, bloodshed, and more than a hint of something deeper.

Would you see it, knowing/never hearing about TMNT? I would, with the proper marketing.


Given the current climate for movies these days, I would assume such a movie would be either a schlocky B-movie that should have gone straight to dvd like "Snakes on a Plane" or an awful parody movie similar to "Meet the Spartans" either of which I can do without.:lol:


But if you're saying that more people were more aware in pop culture and society of Batman as a comic book character (whether serious or not... he bounced back and forth up until the 80s) rather than the 60s incarnation itself in the time between the 60s series and the Tim Burton movie... I'm calling bull****.


I'm baffled anyone can not know Batman was a comicbook character, I never read a Batman comic in my life until the Tim Burton movie, but I knew he was a comicbook character, and only had the 60's live-action show, the Super Friends cartoon, and a guest appereance on Scooby-Doo as a reference for the character.

[Krang]

When? Depending on when you're talking about, Batman was in dire straits as far as sales and threat danger.

I can produce the numbers, the years.
You cut off the quote right before it gave you the answer. I was talking about the period of time between when Batman first showed up in comics (1939) and when the TV show first aired (1966).

I think somewhere you think I posted, "Everyone's first impression of the TMNT was from the Mirage comics." Where did I post this? I didn't.

I'm agreeing with you, Krang -- for a particular generation or two, the Fred Wolf cartoon is the most recognizeable incarnation and probably where people would have formed their "first impressions."
And I never said that you did. You're splitting up my post and taking parts of it out of context. The only reason I brought that up was to enforce the point that Batman was familiar as a mostly serious comic book character for many years by the time the TV show aired, and the TMNT weren't. On top of that, the Batman TV series only lasted a little over 2 years, while the original cartoon lasted 10 years, and could have potentially lasted longer since it wasn't pulled for lack of ratings. It's really a stretch to compare the two.

But if you're saying that more people were more aware in pop culture and society of Batman as a comic book character (whether serious or not... he bounced back and forth up until the 80s) rather than the 60s incarnation itself in the time between the 60s series and the Tim Burton movie... I'm calling bull****.
Again, I never said that, although I'm sure the number of people who were familiar with the Batman comics in the 60s, 70s, and 80s is far, far greater than the number of people who were familiar with the Mirage comics when the original cartoon aired.

And a man dressing as a bat in a wetsuit isn't? A guy in a muscle suit painted red calling himself a Hellboy isn't?

You underestimate the audience. Especially in this day and age.
Humans in costumes may be silly to some, but that's nothing compared to turtles. The fact that they take themselves so seriously makes it even more ridiculous to those not familiar with the characters.

[Vincent]

Here's approximately how I would promote an R- or PG-13-rated TMNT movie (I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but whatever): I would make four teasers. One for each turtle, each showing who the character is and a hint of where they're going emotionally in the movie, followed by a voice over explaining where the movie comes from over quick cuts showing why it's awesome.

Here's for example how Mikey's teaser might go:

We sweep through NYC at night, as we hear MIKEY over the pulsating war drums slowly rising out of the sound of the streets.
MIKEY: New York City. It's like a jungle sometimes. Other times, it's more like an ocean. Cop cars and cats cry like whales, you practically have to swim through the smog, and the further down you get, the weirder the creatures.
We stop on Mikey, standing on a rooftop. Behind him stands RAPH with an annoyed look on his face.
MIKEY: Aren't I philosophical?
Raph takes a swing at Mikey's head.
Mikey grabs Raph's fist right before it hits him and pins him against a wall.
MIKEY: DON'T hit me.

LEO's bloody sword pulls out of a FOOT NINJA's chest.
VO: Forget the cartoons.
DON's bo sweeps across a foot ninja's legs.
VO: See Eastman & Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as they were originally intended...
Raph's sai penetrates a foot ninja's eye.
VO: ...in an all new (?)-rated [cel-animated/CGI/live-action/rotoscope/whatever] [DVD movie/feature film/three-part miniseries/whatever].
Mikey, nunchakus spinning, rushes at something off screen (or the camera).
VO: Inspired by the 1984 independent comic book series from Mirage Studios.
The SHREDDER puts on his signature bladed arm gear.
The original "Eastman & Laird's Teenage Mutant Ninja TURTLES" logo appears, white on black, somewhat cracked.
VO: Coming soon.
Leo's bloody sword appears inside the text.
http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/logomirg.gif

Who wouldn't wanna see that?

[Andrew NDB]

That'd be bad-ass, but that'd totally be a red-band trailer.

R just isn't realistic (unless we're hoping for a direct-to-DVD film, which I certainly wouldn't necessarily shun).

I still like my old, "Lean, Green, and Back on the Mutha****in' Screen" tagline (WB did, too, apparently, as it was the tagline on TMNT Part 4 posters minus the Mutha****in')... but I have no illusions this would be for an alternate universe where an R-rated TMNT film could be made with no toddler hurdles.

PG-13 is the only way to go.

[syk_skillz]

Yeah pretty much we need a DTV for the turtles
As much as I dislike Anime having it drawn in this style would bring in more views for it. This way it could easily be seen to be different then the Saturday morning cartoon right away. To me it really wouldn't need to be any more gritty then the 1990 film since if it was released today it would have certainly been PG-13. A R rated movie isn't really all that realistic as it would cut sales drastically and really wouldn't add a whole lot more to what could be done storyline wise then PG-13 besides for sex, gore and explicit language which does not need to be included for a good story. I find that PG-13 to be the perfect medium as the turtles can bypass using shell instead of hell and all the other kiddified sayings for a more realistic feel for it. PG-13 would also allow for a little blood shed as well. A good example of this is what Justice League: New Frontier was like.

[turkishproverb]

That'd be bad-ass, but that'd totally be a red-band trailer.

R just isn't realistic (unless we're hoping for a direct-to-DVD film, which I certainly wouldn't necessarily shun).

I still like my old, "Lean, Green, and Back on the Mutha****in' Screen" tagline (WB did, too, apparently, as it was the tagline on TMNT Part 4 posters minus the Mutha****in')... but I have no illusions this would be for an alternate universe where an R-rated TMNT film could be made with no toddler hurdles.

PG-13 is the only way to go.

In all fairness, PG-13 would be nice simply so we didn't have to deal with a director/producers adding things that don't fit in the movie just for the heck of it. I can't tell you how many good movies I've seen ruined by tacked on "R" scenes. Granted, they can be used to great effect, but they're often abused.

[TheAnimatedSeries]

I remember some flash cartoon series some guy was making several years ago that was kind of sweet.

Best possibility I think would be if TMNT were to never have revived in '03, gotten more obscure, then a Spawn style HBO series could have existed.

[turkishproverb]

You guys can bicker about this 'til pigs fly.

The unfortunate TRUTH is that Mirage has done and continues to do NOTHING to prove that TMNT is anything other than a kids' property. Until someone kicks 4Kids out of Peter Laird's pockets, this isn't going to change. Speculate all you want, serious Turtles are and will be AWOL for the foreseeable future.

the CEO isn't helping any.

[cup-mikey-gertha]

Taken from the 5th turtle blog:

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
I am Raphael, ninja turtle... and master Splinter chose me for this task...

WIDER as he prepares to leap.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...to deliver a message of challenge...

WIDER as he leaps off the building ledge into the night air.

RAPHAEL (CONT’D)
...to the Shredder.



Ooh! I loved this part from the comic book version. Brings back a lot of memories. Now that I'm writing this down, I suddeny feel sad and near to tears (breathe.... OK ... just regain my composure... breathe in... breathe out... ). This version could have been so much better if not the best of all the movies. Sigh.

THanks for the info, Terror.

:ohwell: