New TMNT B. Stockman (political correctness gone too far?).

[Ubiqtysync]

In lieu of casting Michael Clarke Duncan as Wilson Fisk/the Kingpin in 2003's Daredevil and Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent in 1989's Batman, as well as the namesake of this topic the new cartoon series' black Baxter Stockman, I believe the industry and this country in general is going too far with political correctness.

I do believe there's truth in the idea that it shouldn't matter if a man of differently colored skin portrays a particular character, but in an America in which the Hispanic population greatly outnumbers the Anglo-Saxon margin of only a few years past and now the evidential compromise of adopting an unofficial "second language" of Spanish all throughout this country (e.g., at amusement parks, ATM machines, etc.), we're also losing some very important principles. And no, I don't mean purely "white" principles.

I read a very interesting article titled "Beyond the Melting Pot" by William A. Henry III. If I may, I include an excerpt from page 55:
"In urging a revised syllabus, the task force argued, 'Children from European culture will have a less arrogant perspective of being part of a group that has 'done it all.'' Many intellectuals are outraged. Political scientist Andrew Hacker of Queens College lambastes a task-force suggestion that children be taught how 'Native Americans were here to welcome new settlers from Holland, Senegal, England, Indonesia, France, the Congo, Italy, China, Iberia.' Asks Hacker: 'Did the Indians really welcome all those groups? Were they at Ellis Island when the Italians started to arrive? This is not history but a myth intended to bolster the self-esteem of certain children and, just possibly, a platform for advocates of various ethnic interests" (Experiencing Race, Class, and Gender in the United States, Virginia Cyrus).

You don't read about how the Puerto Ricans raided the Alamo. Or how the Protestants strictly founded all prestigious educational institutions in America. Why? Because that's not history or the truth. Just because of who the majority is now doesn't ratify or condone the practice of "inserting" different, select groups of people into the past.

Therefore, my stand is that it's getting absurd with how political correctness dictates the stipulation that you MUST have a character of African ancestry or Hispanic heritage in a role, even if the role was specifically designed to accommodate a person of a certain type. It's not racism; it's a foundation of customs quickly fading away in our country. And it's all too realistically being reflected in film and TV.

I'm a big fan of Michael Clarke Duncan. I've not implied the concept of "white preservation" once. In fact, I'm with other people who think the KKK and White Supremacy groups are just a bunch of idiots. What I am saying, though, is that history needs not be rewritten JUST BECAUSE the latest legal regulation, the dernier cri, the status quo requirement, makes it quite clear that you will feature someone of this precise race or gender...or else.

One day--yes, how I eagerly await it, too--we will inevitably become just one mass of people. A collective of "colorblind" spectra of people from all walks of life, inosculated and regarded as one entity. But political correctness is not the only avenue. It's not even the most positive or effective.

I welcome and appreciate any input anyone else might contribute to this discussion. Thank you.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Do a little research, first, before starting topics like these. Baxter was black in the orginal Mirage comics. The cartoon is based upon these comics, in case you haven't noticed. The new one much more so than the old one.

Duncan was chosen for Daredevil merely because he was the best one for the role. He almost didn't get the role because movie execs weren't sold on the idea of changing the character's race. It had nothing to do with political correctness, belive me.

[Bry]

Dude, read the comics. Baxter was always black. Only in the 80s/90s cartoon did they turn him into a littl epasty white guy (god knows why).

Really, now. :roll:

[Shadow]

I think changing baxter to white (80/90's) was a bad choice. There was hardly ethnic divercity (until carter). The turtles live in NYC and let me tell you all in the slight event you have never been to New York...it is one of the most diverce places on the globe...It fits to have baxter black...I like the choice to bring him back to the way he should have always been.

peace and fun
Shadow J.

[R-iZZy]

I seriously have no problem with a black Baxter. As I said... I would've loved to see the cartoon go back to its edgier Mirage background. Baxter was always black, and I'm glad he's not a wuss this time. Do you think they'll make him a fly in this series?

[GK Punk]

I seriously have no problem with a black Baxter. As I said... I would've loved to see the cartoon go back to its edgier Mirage background. Baxter was always black, and I'm glad he's not a wuss this time. Do you think they'll make him a fly in this series?

I really hope they don't turn him in to a fly this time... it dosn't fit the original Mirage vision imo...

And actually, wasn't April black in the original Mirage books? I seem to remember her being black originally for some reason.

[GK Punk]

In lieu of casting Michael Clarke Duncan as Wilson Fisk/the Kingpin in 2003's Daredevil and Billy Dee Williams as Harvey Dent in 1989's Batman, as well as the namesake of this topic the new cartoon series' black Baxter Stockman, I believe the industry and this country in general is going too far with political correctness.

I do believe there's truth in the idea that it shouldn't matter if a man of differently colored skin portrays a particular character, but in an America in which the Hispanic population greatly outnumbers the Anglo-Saxon margin of only a few years past and now the evidential compromise of adopting an unofficial "second language" of Spanish all throughout this country (e.g., at amusement parks, ATM machines, etc.), we're also losing some very important principles. And no, I don't mean purely "white" principles.

I read a very interesting article titled "Beyond the Melting Pot" by William A. Henry III. If I may, I include an excerpt from page 55:
"In urging a revised syllabus, the task force argued, 'Children from European culture will have a less arrogant perspective of being part of a group that has 'done it all.'' Many intellectuals are outraged. Political scientist Andrew Hacker of Queens College lambastes a task-force suggestion that children be taught how 'Native Americans were here to welcome new settlers from Holland, Senegal, England, Indonesia, France, the Congo, Italy, China, Iberia.' Asks Hacker: 'Did the Indians really welcome all those groups? Were they at Ellis Island when the Italians started to arrive? This is not history but a myth intended to bolster the self-esteem of certain children and, just possibly, a platform for advocates of various ethnic interests" (Experiencing Race, Class, and Gender in the United States, Virginia Cyrus).

You don't read about how the Puerto Ricans raided the Alamo. Or how the Protestants strictly founded all prestigious educational institutions in America. Why? Because that's not history or the truth. Just because of who the majority is now doesn't ratify or condone the practice of "inserting" different, select groups of people into the past.

Therefore, my stand is that it's getting absurd with how political correctness dictates the stipulation that you MUST have a character of African ancestry or Hispanic heritage in a role, even if the role was specifically designed to accommodate a person of a certain type. It's not racism; it's a foundation of customs quickly fading away in our country. And it's all too realistically being reflected in film and TV.

I'm a big fan of Michael Clarke Duncan. I've not implied the concept of "white preservation" once. In fact, I'm with other people who think the KKK and White Supremacy groups are just a bunch of idiots. What I am saying, though, is that history needs not be rewritten JUST BECAUSE the latest legal regulation, the dernier cri, the status quo requirement, makes it quite clear that you will feature someone of this precise race or gender...or else.

One day--yes, how I eagerly await it, too--we will inevitably become just one mass of people. A collective of "colorblind" spectra of people from all walks of life, inosculated and regarded as one entity. But political correctness is not the only avenue. It's not even the most positive or effective.

I welcome and appreciate any input anyone else might contribute to this discussion. Thank you.

I have to say, you really did write a nice article here, however it was waisted... Stockman is black, and was suppoused to be from the begining. In the old cartoon they changed him to being white, for some odd reason.

[R-iZZy]

I seriously have no problem with a black Baxter. As I said... I would've loved to see the cartoon go back to its edgier Mirage background. Baxter was always black, and I'm glad he's not a wuss this time. Do you think they'll make him a fly in this series?

I really hope they don't turn him in to a fly this time... it dosn't fit the original Mirage vision imo...

And actually, wasn't April black in the original Mirage books? I seem to remember her being black originally for some reason.
Nah... April wasn't black. She just had dark hair.

[GK Punk]

I seriously have no problem with a black Baxter. As I said... I would've loved to see the cartoon go back to its edgier Mirage background. Baxter was always black, and I'm glad he's not a wuss this time. Do you think they'll make him a fly in this series?

I really hope they don't turn him in to a fly this time... it dosn't fit the original Mirage vision imo...

And actually, wasn't April black in the original Mirage books? I seem to remember her being black originally for some reason.
Nah... April wasn't black. She just had dark hair.

Ok, for some reason (I think it's the TMNT RPG Book) I remembered her being black... However, I can admit when I am wrong ^^

[R-iZZy]

Oh... admitting mistakes, you're so strong! :D Seriously, I can't admit my mistakes. Anyway, I always looked at April and peered into her, trying to figure out whether she was black or not. But you really have to look closely. Her hairstyle was what made the difference really, and her skin was never shaded in to exhibit any darkness in her skin tone.

[GK Punk]

Oh... admitting mistakes, you're so strong! :D Seriously, I can't admit my mistakes. Anyway, I always looked at April and peered into her, trying to figure out whether she was black or not. But you really have to look closely. Her hairstyle was what made the difference really, and her skin was never shaded in to exhibit any darkness in her skin tone.

Maybe that's what it was, her hair... I'll have to go dig out the old RPG just because of this converstation now :) it's been years scince I looked at it

[beaker]

I seriously have no problem with a black Baxter. As I said... I would've loved to see the cartoon go back to its edgier Mirage background. Baxter was always black, and I'm glad he's not a wuss this time. Do you think they'll make him a fly in this series?

I really hope they don't turn him in to a fly this time... it dosn't fit the original Mirage vision imo...

And actually, wasn't April black in the original Mirage books? I seem to remember her being black originally for some reason.

indeed, April *was* black in some of the TMNT issues I have(err, at least some issues and RPG books), most notably some of the side stories in one of my TMNT TPB.

Baxter WAS ALWAYS a black guy.
Heck, the original Bebop(or was it Rocksteady?) was a black punk rocker, then somehow he got turned into a white guy.

While I have no interest in seeing that Ben Afleckathon, Michael Clark Duncan looks kickass as Kingpin.(tho I thought Kingpin was fatter) Sure a black Superman would be a bit odd, just as a white Blade would seem out of place.

[Karpo_007]

No I have ALL the issues, April is not Black! :lol: But I can understand why one could make that mistake. The hair and the fact it's in B/W can make her look like that. But I can't say anything for the RPG But I doubt she was black there either.

As for Baxter, everything has been said. And He won't turn into a fly, but... Read the spoilers yourself if you want.

[Jephael]

I think changing baxter to white (80/90's) was a bad choice. There was hardly ethnic divercity (until carter). The turtles live in NYC and let me tell you all in the slight event you have never been to New York...it is one of the most diverce places on the globe...It fits to have baxter black...I like the choice to bring him back to the way he should have always been.

I see your point there. BTW, the old show did change it's format in 1990 so that the show didn't neccesarily take place in New York. That was always my one and only gripe about the show. Other than that, I had no other complaints.

[Karpo_007]

Yeah it changed from New York to "City". I still can't understand the reason.

[Sparvid]

Heck, the original Bebop(or was it Rocksteady?) was a black punk rocker, then somehow he got turned into a white guy.When was that?

[Eye of Sarnath]

How about... never?

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, his color didn't change either. But his race did!

[GK Punk]

No I have ALL the issues, April is not Black! :lol: But I can understand why one could make that mistake. The hair and the fact it's in B/W can make her look like that. But I can't say anything for the RPG But I doubt she was black there either.

As for Baxter, everything has been said. And He won't turn into a fly, but... Read the spoilers yourself if you want.

I dug out the old RPG book, and she does *LOOK* black, but I do believe that's about it. And like I said, i can admit when Im wrong, so you must be right ^^

[Karpo_007]

Well Like I said, I haven't read the RPG books, but it would be weird if she whould be black in them... :lol:

[GK Punk]

if my scanner still works, Ill have to scan it and post it later the way they used the screen tones on her skin make her look black, but I think it's just suppoused to be heavy shadding or something like that.

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, I know. Same thing with the comic books. People that haven't read many issues could easily be mistaken.

[GK Punk]

Yeah, I know. Same thing with the comic books. People that haven't read many issues could easily be mistaken.

For the most part, I read a couple of Graphic Novels and a few Random issues other than that... So I see where you are coming from, <---Has faulty memory is what it is :lol:

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, April as drawed many difrent ways, sometimes her skin was darker than others. But still, she was always white.

[Reznorite420]

Yeah, his color didn't change either. But his race did!???

He was always black, even in the episodes you saw him de-mutated or whatever.

[Reznorite420]

Yeah it changed from New York to "City". I still can't understand the reason.Shredder says, "Of course...I'm in the Big Apple" in "The Return of the Shredder"...

[Jephael]

That was in 1988, two years before they changed the format.

[Karpo_007]

Yeah, his color didn't change either. But his race did!???

He was always black, even in the episodes you saw him de-mutated or whatever.

Race: From Human to mutant WartHog.

Edit: I guess species would have been the right word...

[Kali]

I remember hearing somewhere that they changed Baxter from Black to White for the old cartoon because they didn't want the only black main characters to be bad guys. They didn't have any black good guy characters to balance it. (Yes, censors are weird like that...)

As for April, she's changed so much over the years, it's hard to say what race she is for certain. Heard somewhere that she was Latina, another that she's Irish. Doesn't matter much to me.

[Reznorite420]

As for April, she's changed so much over the years, it's hard to say what race she is for certain. Heard somewhere that she was Latina, another that she's Irish. Doesn't matter much to me."O'Neil" is pretty damn Irish if you ask me :D

[Jephael]

I remember hearing somewhere that they changed Baxter from Black to White for the old cartoon because they didn't want the only black main characters to be bad guys. They didn't have any black good guy characters to balance it.

I can just see comedian Chris Rock talking about something like that.

"Now why they gotta go change Baxter to a white guy?!! Man, I don't care if he's a villian! As long as he's a brotha!"

[beaker]

Um, well from the 'Return of Savanti Romero' late 80's Lawson/Laird side story issue, she definately is a sista...or at least Puerto Rican or something...

http://forums.palisadestoys.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=33842

[Karpo_007]

She might have looked like Latina[the hair atleast] But she was never black.

[PWDESAI]

I dunno karpo I heard they were going to mutate him. I don't mind it going back to the "edgier mirage roots" :roll: have we heard that one a lot, but I don't want it to be the exact same thing, there would be no surprise...
I think a totally new version but mostly based on teh mirage series would suit best. I think that's what Peter Laird was aiming for, I mean just because it was the first series doesn't make it the best at entertaining people, there were some dead crap issues. I can't really say that's waht Peter wants, so why not someone write into his comic book about this?

[PWDESAI]

btw 80's hairstyle was like that, if you watch any 80's movies like terminator they all had stupid hairdos :wink:

[beaker]

She might have looked like Latina[the hair atleast] But she was never black.

Interesting how in some issues of the Lawson comic back then she was Hispanic, heh.

[Karpo_007]

Well she has had many difrent looks over the years.

[Skeletoncrew]

Personally I'm happy with the way Baxter has been portrayed. I don't think its political correctness...the old cartoon Baxter was political correctness.

[Dinny]

Right. And the old Mirage Baxter was clearly black.

[GordonUniverse]

Deciding to take evil criminal villains and making them black (even though BStockman was always) is not politically correct. In fact, it's quite far from politically correct, unless you are saying that hiring or showing blacks in any way is politically correct, even when the classic character was created black and has been that way for 20 years (not counting the tv show that changed his color, because THEY wanted to be politically correct). How "politcally correct" of Spike Lee to use a black man in the role of Malcom X, eh?

So one black man in a cartoon is going too far? You are right, though, history doesn't need to be rewritten, but, of course, as you said, the color of the skin doesn't matter, and changing a character's skin color in a fictional story doens't rewrite that story's history (even though, in this case, history tells he was black all along).

Maybe you should do a little research on the characters before you post an overly long message (or, if you had spent more than a day in this place before posting you'd know that he was always black, it's brought up a lot) and maybe you should do a little research on the term "politcally correct" next time.

Ppssssttt... don't tell anybody, it's real hush hush, but they got a black man to do Anakin Skywalker's voice toward the end of the next star wars movie. Did you just do a spit-take? I did too. Coffee everywhere. And I don't even drink coffee.

[Karpo_007]

I don't get it.. What does it matter if a villain is black or white? And original Baxter was in volume 2, wich ran trough 1993 to 1995, and I think I heard he is in Volume 4 too... So black Baxter has always there.

[beaker]

How "politcally correct" of Spike Lee to use a black man in the role of Malcom X, eh?

The 1990's called, it wants its 'politically correctness' back. Man I hate that PC word. Its from the Clinton/OJ 90's era.

Honestly, I think its politically incorrect to always keep black guys from being a bad guy. Thank goodness they had Duncan as Kingpin.
Then again you hardly ever see an asian in a non martial arts action lead role, or a black guy with a non baclk woman in a comedy/drama. Hollywood is screwed up.

[Eye of Sarnath]

Oh my God, this topic is still going. I thought we had resolved this issue, uh, three pages ago? Screw political correctness. Oh well... if you enjoy arguing about this kind of stuff, I won't stop you.

[Karpo_007]

Yes, this Baxter has nothibg to do with PC, but this topic has spawned discussion about aprils diffren't looks too.

[ToTheNines]

Looks like the Woke Mind Virus was alive and well in 2003…

[neatoman]

Isn't it funny that they have always gotten his skin color right since this cartoon did, but still cling to that moronic idea that he should turn into a fly creature even though this cartoon didn't?

[Andrew NDB]

Isn't it funny that they have always gotten his skin color right since this cartoon did, but still cling to that moronic idea that he should turn into a fly creature even though this cartoon didn't?

It always seems to come at a trade off beyond Mirage. Ok, we'll keep him a black man, but...

Though even technically Mirage did that, too. You can't have a skin color if you're just a brain.

[Zog The Magnificent]

I mean, I'm pretty sure that IDW Baxter is the only major version of the character to remain completely human. Every other version is either a fly or a cyborg, or wasn't around long enough to do either.

[ToTheNines]

Hey, Rise never mutated him right?

[neatoman]

Hey, Rise never mutated him right?

Technically that wasn't Baxter Stockman but rather Baxter Stockboy (yes, that is his actual name, I'm not just making a joke about his age), but yes, he remained a human being throughout the entire short run.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Hey, Rise never mutated him right?

Technically that wasn't Baxter Stockman but rather Baxter Stockboy (yes, that is his actual name, I'm not just making a joke about his age), but yes, he remained a human being throughout the entire short run.

Frankly, I forgot all about Rise. But Stockboy only has lines in two episodes, so he's not SUPER major.

[CyberCubed]

I guess Baxter as a human has a limited story potential, IDW's Baxter was fine for awhile but even they pretty much ran out of things to do with him. Ever since he became mayor he's pretty much been in the background, and most of it being during Sophie's run didn't help matters either. I actually would have prefered him killed off at the end of the Armaggedon game.

[neatoman]

I guess Baxter as a human has a limited story potential, IDW's Baxter was fine for awhile but even they pretty much ran out of things to do with him. Ever since he became mayor he's pretty much been in the background, and most of it being during Sophie's run didn't help matters either. I actually would have prefered him killed off at the end of the Armaggedon game.

What? No, what kind of thinking is that? He's essentially a Lex Luthor type of character and the actual Lex Luthor keeps showing up. The only people who (claim to) think there is no potential there are the morons who claim humanoid animal characters should completely take over the cast of characters, for open reasons really too vague to be used as any real argument and their presumed real reasons that they jerk off to the idea of having a million furry characters.

Besides, you and I both know there are no such things as compelling characters or well written storylines in the Campbell run. The only people who deny this are the previously mentioned morons who will (hopefully) go away if they discover what Fur Affinity is and find a way to satisfy their needs without promoting some of the worst official TMNT comics ever.

[Andrew NDB]

Baxter's motivations are what are pretty flimsy, historically. Even at Mirage. Robbing banks with the mousers to get money, that makes sense... but everything else after that falls apart. He's super mad at April and wants revenge... for her defending herself when he was trying to kill her? Eh...

[Zog The Magnificent]

I think 2003 had the best use of the character. He's got simple but completely believable motives, and such a massive ego that he's both fun to watch, but also completely justified (from a character standpoint) in continuing along the way he does. Mirage Baxter has flimsy motives, and really only gets two real stories, before coming back years later and immediately dying, and 87 Baxter, like a lot in that show, isn't taken seriously enough to be compelling. 2012 Baxter basically ceases to be relevant or have any kind of arc once he becomes a fly; he's basically just another henchmen with no real character after that point. IDW Baxter was really great for a long while, but the mayor arc didn't really go anywhere it should have, and now he's just kind of around, just like the other 70 billion characters IDW saw fit to introduce.

[Zog The Magnificent]

Besides, you and I both know there is no such things as a compelling characters or well written storylines in the Campbell run. The only people who deny this are the previously mentioned morons who will (hopefully) go away if they discover what Fur Affinity is and find a way to satisfy their needs without promoting some of the worst official TMNT comics ever.

I agree with the sentiment, but I actually think the first 5 issues of the run were fine. Back before we knew just what we were in for, back before all the genuine potential that the premise had was squandered, back before the comic became the pile of self aggrandising character insert fanfiction allegory cryfest nonsese that it became, those first 5 issues actually did a really good job of establishing the new status quo, letting the plot take a breather, and getting everyone back together and ready for the new plot. It's just that the "next phase" never really happened and it just KEPT GOING. Then the Battle of the Bands happened, and that was one of the stupidest, most pointless story arcs in the whole run.

But yeah, I actually think the first 5 issues were alright.

[Coola Yagami]

Baxter's motivations are what are pretty flimsy, historically. Even at Mirage. Robbing banks with the mousers to get money, that makes sense... but everything else after that falls apart. He's super mad at April and wants revenge... for her defending herself when he was trying to kill her? Eh...

You know how these kinds of bad guys think. To him, it's April's fault that he was caught and sent to prison.

[ToTheNines]

You know how these kinds of bad guys think. To him, it's April's fault that he was caught and sent to prison.

I think that’s exactly what he’s saying. Mirage characters typically have more nuance to them than your average “Saturday morning cartoon” villain. Kind of doesn’t fit in to that world.

Even in 4kids, he didn’t become fixated on April until his mind started deteriorating. Before that, his ire was rightfully aimed at Shredder.