TMNT Masters or Students

[Warhorse]

I've been wondering, in each of the mediums, are the Turtles ninja masters yet, or still students.

Don't know much about the various comics, have they ever reached master level yet?

In the movies and 2k3, while they are still ninja students, would they be considered weapons masters yet? Like Raph and master of the sai, Leo master of the katana and so forth? You think Splinter's expertise is in general ninjitsu, but are his students more skilled than he is in their prefferred weapons choice?

Is Karai in the 2k3 considered a master or still a student?

[Jester]

*shrugs* I'm not sure about any of your questions, but I have one thing to add to this discourse, and of course it comes from the Archie comics. In the Archie Comics Future, Leonardo at least is a ninja master, complete with his own students, including April O'Neil's granddaughter.

[triplexxx]

In the TV mediums: at the end of the OT, Splinter declares the boys masters; in the NT, they're still students yes, though they have had an opportunity to be sensei to someone. The movies, still most likely students also.
When it comes to their weapons, I guess in every universe they're considered masters of each of their individual weapons.
Karai I don't know about.

[Newton Gimmick]

Even a master, is always a student...

[triplexxx]

I think Splinter probably said that somewhere, can't remember, maybe not.

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Even a master, is always a student...

You beat me to it!:) I was going to say something about how everyone is always a student, because you're always learning.

[Sage Ninja]

I think there is no doubt in my mind that the turtles are officially ninjas at this point, they are not just trainees studying to become one. Yes they are in fact students but I think their training is not so much training to become ninjas but to assend to the higher ranks of ninja.

[Scandia]

In 2k3 they are at the intermediate rank of Chuunin.

And I do agree that even the masters are always learning. After all, there are various degrees of black belts in martial arts.

[TheUltimateShredhead]

Is Karai in the 2k3 considered a master or still a student?

Well leo beats her, so if he is a student i suppose she's one to!

In the TV mediums: at the end of the OT, Splinter declares the boys masters;

But still they didn't mastered there pop corn:P

[Buslady]

I like to think they are always a student of their art, always learning new things as well. I see Raph always a student of saijutsu, Don a student of bojutsu...what the hec would theycall mikeys? Nunchakujutsu?! :lol::lol: Or Leo? Would his fall under kendo, iaido, or some other blade art?

[Warhorse]

I was just wondering about the whole thing. It spurred from a conversation a friend of mine and I had about which of the Turtles weapons would be the most difficult to master. It ended up somewhere where we agreed that Mikey and Raph pretty much learned all the moves their weapons can accomplish, while Leo and Don were still polishing their weapons, as we believed the Bo and swordsmanship would be more difficult and a lot more involved to master than the sai. Nunchucks are really difficult, but we also agreed that this is where Mikey's natural athletism has helped him make the leap from beginner to master of the nunchuk quicker than most students.

[syd]

I like to think they are always a student of their art, always learning new things as well. I see Raph always a student of saijutsu, Don a student of bojutsu...what the hec would theycall mikeys? Nunchakujutsu?! :lol::lol: Or Leo? Would his fall under kendo, iaido, or some other blade art?

Shuang jie gun fa & Nitouryuu. Lol!

[TheUltimateShredhead]

I like to think they are always a student of their art, always learning new things as well. I see Raph always a student of saijutsu, Don a student of bojutsu...what the hec would theycall mikeys? Nunchakujutsu?! :lol::lol: Or Leo? Would his fall under kendo, iaido, or some other blade art?

That was pretty funny:lol:

[aabxx]

It ended up somewhere where we agreed that Mikey and Raph pretty much learned all the moves their weapons can accomplish, while Leo and Don were still polishing their weapons, as we believed the Bo and swordsmanship would be more difficult and a lot more involved to master than the sai.

Nunchakus are clearly the worst weapon to master because frankly, they're very unpredictable and don't make a very good weapon. So to be able to kick ass with it while avoid being killed, well... frankly, if someone was in the turtle's position, the last thing he would use is chucks... they're too difficult to control and too ineffective in the sort of combat situations the turtles face. Actually, what Mike does with the chucks is not possible. We can call it ninja magic.

Second place would go to the sais or the bo. It's much more difficult to stay alive and kick ass with sais or a wooden stick, than with big swords. It should be quite obvious really. Good katanas are some of the finest weapons ever forged by man. Bos and sais are not even close. There's a reason swords are tried and tested countless times. Bos were probably great once upon a time when you didn't have metal or the skills required to process metal ;)

[TheUltimateShredhead]

Nunchakus are clearly the worst weapon to master because frankly, they're very unpredictable and don't make a very good weapon. So to be able to kick ass with it while avoid being killed, well... frankly, if someone was in the turtle's position, the last thing he would use is chucks... they're too difficult to control and too ineffective in the sort of combat situations the turtles face. Actually, what Mike does with the chucks is not possible. We can call it ninja magic.

Second place would go to the sais or the bo. It's much more difficult to stay alive and kick ass with sais or a wooden stick, than with big swords. It should be quite obvious really. Good katanas are some of the finest weapons ever forged by man. Bos and sais are not even close. There's a reason swords are tried and tested countless times. Bos were probably great once upon a time when you didn't have metal or the skills required to process metal ;)

Don't forget there not any type of turtles;) there teenage mutant ninja turtles:D

[aabxx]

In 2k3 they are at the intermediate rank of Chuunin.

That's correct. Chuunin = "middle ninja". So they've all achieved a great level of maturity but are not elite ninjas yet.

However, consider this. Karai has always been portrayed as one of the leaders of the foot clan. In the mirage version, she was even ranked above Shredder, in fact being THE leader of the japanese foot clan.

Obviously she's not a middle ninja. To lead a ninja clan, you have to be the highest ranked ninja. Maybe she seems too young to be a true master but that's her rank anyway. I suspect Karai was an exceptional ninja who quickly rose to jounin (high ninja) and then reached the top because of connections/circumstances. Or maybe she's just that good. Who knows. Now, in season 4 of 2k3, Leonardo not only successfully infiltrates the american foot base all by himself, he also challenges Karai and defeats her convincingly. At that time, Leonardo was genin (low ninja)... now, that doesn't seem quite logical does it? How can a mere low level ninja beat a ninja master?

In the 2007 movie, Karai is attacking Leonardo with a sword while Leonardo is not even drawing his swords instead using his body to avoid her attacks. In the end he even evades her blade by "simply" using his hands around her blade and turning it to the other side. If that didn't look like a high rank ninja to you, I don't know what would. That training in south america transformed him to something beyond his brothers when it comes to ninjutsu. Well, actually he was already better than them before he left... which is why he left to begin with.

Exactly the same thing happens in 2k3. Leonardo is criticizing Splinter for failing to teach him anything new. By accident, Leonado ends up hurting Splinter, and Splinter then realizes Leonardo must progress through a new sensei at that point. Now that doesn't make sense. Why would a genin need to go abroad to learn new things from a new sensei?

So Leonardo might "officially" only be a chuunin by the time of fast forward but he's no ordinary chuunin. He's already technically able to beat certain ninja masters at that point. His brothers are not as good but considering how many foes they defeated before fast forward, it's hard to imagine they were genin for that long... so Splinter sure takes him time with those ranks, is my conclusion. And that rank doesn't mean everything. Michelangelo became the champion of the multiverse as a "low ninja".

As for the mirage comics. Well... they're in their thirties. Master Splinter is dead. So they've all deserved to be called ninja masters at that point.

[Buslady]

That was pretty funny:lol:

Hey Saijutsu is real, so is Bojutsu! really! go look em up! :P
It's simply the Art of *insert weapon here*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffUk3naQTys <--sai, not just for ninja turtle!

Mikeys or Leo's i had no idear ....I'll call it Mikeyjutsu and Leojutsu

Syd, yer goofy :P





Second place would go to the sais or the bo. It's much more difficult to stay alive and kick ass with sais or a wooden stick, than with big swords. It should be quite obvious really. Good katanas are some of the finest weapons ever forged by man. Bos and sais are not even close. There's a reason swords are tried and tested countless times. Bos were probably great once upon a time when you didn't have metal or the skills required to process metal

yeah but even a great katana can be snapped by a properly built sai. Katana are awesome yes but they're not made to have lateral pressure, *snap* just like in the movie. sai are effective for what they're made to do; defend & disable without killing, and snap mean ol' katana in two. :P

[Scandia]

Exactly the same thing happens in 2k3. Leonardo is criticizing Splinter for failing to teach him anything new. By accident, Leonado ends up hurting Splinter, and Splinter then realizes Leonardo must progress through a new sensei at that point. Now that doesn't make sense. Why would a genin need to go abroad to learn new things from a new sensei?

I do agree that Leo is very talented and puts a lot of effort and enthusiasm into his ninjitsu skills.

And it is always helpful to do professional development with another instructor.

However, the main reason why Splinter sent Leo to Japan with the Ancient One was for Leo to be HEALED. He needed to go away from the city and into the countryside- since ancient times it has been described that cities can be very stressful and that bucolic regions are more healthy and relaxing. Plus the Ancient One mainly worked on training Leo's mind and spirit- in other words, healing his broken mind and spirit. Splinter had 3 other sons to take care of- two of them who very much needed a father's discipline and guidance.

IMHO, it was the Ancient One's idea to have Leo come to Japan. And that he had been telling Splinter to send him over since Splinter first noticed that Leo had been traumatized from Exodus. At the breaking point, Splinter was probably more concerned that Leo's anger would cause him to hurt one of his brothers- or himself. Hence Splinter decided to follow the Ancient One's advice- which worked.

[Leo2007]

So Leonardo might "officially" only be a chuunin by the time of fast forward but he's no ordinary chuunin. He's already technically able to beat certain ninja masters at that point. His brothers are not as good but considering how many foes they defeated before fast forward, it's hard to imagine they were genin for that long... so Splinter sure takes him time with those ranks, is my conclusion. And that rank doesn't mean everything. Michelangelo became the champion of the multiverse as a "low ninja".

As for the mirage comics. Well... they're in their thirties. Master Splinter is dead. So they've all deserved to be called ninja masters at that point.

Of course Leo is no ordinary chuunin. The guy defeated utrom shredder in RoTY part III, and beat him fair and square. His brothers never beat him one on one. Heck, not even Splinter or Yoshi achieved that feat, and both of them are ninjitsu masters with Yoshi being more skilled than Splinter. That's what got the attention of the ultimate ninja, and it obviously got the attention of the tribunal as well. Heck, all four turtles have achieved feats that not even Yoshi has achieved which says a lot, since again, Yoshi was a ninjitsu master. So yes, the tribunal was right when they said the turtles are very special, because they are. Its very rare to see ninjas as young as they are, to achieve as much as our four turtles have.

That's why I would not be surprised to see Leo become a ninjitsu master at a young age. I think he's on that path, right now. Matter of fact, I think all of them are on that path right now, even Mikey, as lazy and unfocused as he can be at times.

[triplexxx]

That training in south america transformed him to something beyond his brothers when it comes to ninjutsu. Well, actually he was already better than them before he left... which is why he left to begin with.Well, don't take it for granted, he's still on the same level as his brothers, he's not anything "beyond" them, that's definitely an exaggeration.

[Kendamu]

When it comes to many martial arts (especially Japanese martial arts) in real life, you can be a master of an art while still being a student. For example, let's pretend Mas Oyama is still alive and you really wanna get into Kyokushin Karate.

You can get to be a really high level black belt where you're teaching your own students who call you "sensei" and everything! However, Mas Oyama is still the leader of Kyokushin Karate as a whole and is above you.

So, the Turtles can still be students of Splinter while being Ninjutsu masters.