Future Shark

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

In the Archie comics, Splinter is seen preventing the TMNT from follow Shredder and Baxter Stockman in "The Incredible Shrinking Turtles", just like in the 1987 cartoon episode with the same name and story. In the 1987 cartoon, the story countinues with the Eye of Sarnath stories, and the Archie comics changes to "Something Fishy Goes Down" and the Eye of Sarnath seems forgotten. But in the "Future Shark" trilogy, a flashback of "The Incredible Shrinking Turtles" shows Leonardo follow Shredder and Baxter Stockman down a ladder to the the basement of the cheese packing plant, and Armaggon appears from the time portal and goes with Shredder from the present to the future. I wonder:

*Why does Leonardo go to the basement, when Splinter is seen preventing the turtles from following Shredder and Baxter Stockman?
*Baxter Stockman didn't follow Shredder and Armaggon to the future, what happened to him in the Archie comics: (He couldn't escape up the ladder as Leonardo was just climbing down it)?
*Just after Shredder and Armaggon arrive in the future, the time machine explodes. How can Shredder be back in "Something Fishy Goes Down"?

[Jester]

Um....I've wondered this a lot myself. Heck, Sarnath re-appears in later issues looking for his eye....get it...Eye of Sarnath...never mind.

Maybe this does explain Baxter's absence in the rest of Archie...since after this issue, he's gone in favor of Bebop and Rocksteady....but then there's the paradox of Shredder being back for Something Fishy...I don't have an answer...that's the bane of Time Travel stories...:(

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Um....I've wondered this a lot myself. Heck, Sarnath re-appears in later issues looking for his eye....get it...Eye of Sarnath...never mind.

Maybe this does explain Baxter's absence in the rest of Archie...since after this issue, he's gone in favor of Bebop and Rocksteady....but then there's the paradox of Shredder being back for Something Fishy...I don't have an answer...that's the bane of Time Travel stories...:(

And then, Bebop and Rocksteady appears on the Earth in "Something Fishy Goes Down". They could at least have adapted "Enter the Fly" before the new stories (maybe with Baxter Stockman being killed by Krang's disintegrator machine instead of turned into a fly), it would also tell how Bebop and Rocksteady got back to the Earth.

[VaughnMichael]

I always thought perhaps the turtles handed Baxter over the the cops.

[Kendamu]

I figure that some weird time paradox thing happened... like the "Retcon Punch!" administered by a Superboy to the DC universe that, amongst other things, brought Jason Todd back to life. Only instead of creating some sort of Crisis in Infinite Sewers it just made a weird timeline that might not be completely explainable.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I figure that some weird time paradox thing happened... like the "Retcon Punch!" administered by a Superboy to the DC universe that, amongst other things, brought Jason Todd back to life. Only instead of creating some sort of Crisis in Infinite Sewers it just made a weird timeline that might not be completely explainable.

I didn't read DC comics, but I recall Cudley the Cowlick saying global warming was not necessarily 100 % how it had to be in the future, but just a possible future if humans didn't stop polluting the Earth. However, future Donatello later explained that this became the future.

[Jester]

Yes....but it was the future before Al Snore...er...Gore's documentary which will save the planet, negating the FUture Shark future even further.

[Galactus]

It's just one of the many retcons to the issues adapted from the cartoon that the Archie series did in it's later years.

I distinctly remember the issue straight after the "Future Shark Trilogy" had Splinter reminiscing about his life with him remembering that Saki framing him for a murder being the reason he was kicked out of the Foot and the turtles growing at a normal rate rather than instantly becoming teenagers like in the "Turtle Tracks".

I believe Armaggon stated in the story that Baxter was left behind to face the turtles alone so I guess we can safely assume he was handed in to the police and locked up again. As for Shredder being taken away by Armaggon...well this was a huge continuity but a reader might try and make an intuitive leap that Archie worked with the marvel method that time travel doesn't actualy change anything, all it does is create an alternative universe were history unfolds differently. Perhaps that would explain why future Don and Raph had no qualms of messing with history and why Shredder was still around for the Final Conflict etc. (although it wouldn't explain why he remembered the turtles helping him when his body had been taken over by Krang)

[Jester]

You know...you're right! That Shredder who was with Verminator trying to still the Black Stone (was it) technically had never had Krang grafted to his head, unless there are 2 diffrent Shredders in Future Shark. *brain aches*

[KROW]

I think Cherubae had something to do with it. :P

[Coola Yagami]

Another thing that didn't make sense... How DID Krang graft himself onto Shredder's body? He said he didn't need to cut his head off, just 'carve and shape anew', but Saki's face looked exactly the same when they finally got Krang off him. Like the hell man, did Krang literally shove Shredder's head up his ass or something??? How does that give him complete control over Shredder's body and keep him unconcious???

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Another thing that didn't make sense... How DID Krang graft himself onto Shredder's body? He said he didn't need to cut his head off, just 'carve and shape anew', but Saki's face looked exactly the same when they finally got Krang off him. Like the hell man, did Krang literally shove Shredder's head up his ass or something??? How does that give him complete control over Shredder's body and keep him unconcious???

He also said Shredder felt the pain if someone hurt him. But where was Shredder's head when Krang was on him? Wouldn't it make more sense just to let Krang kill Shredder and use his body (we wouldn't have the Future Shark trilogy then but Shredder didn't appear much after Krang took his body)

[Jon]

We'd still have the Future Shark Trilogy, as the Shredder there was from a time in the past (way before Krang taking control of his body).

As for that whole Krang on Shredder stuff, I don't try to go too deep in thinking about it....

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

It's just one of the many retcons to the issues adapted from the cartoon that the Archie series did in it's later years.

I distinctly remember the issue straight after the "Future Shark Trilogy" had Splinter reminiscing about his life with him remembering that Saki framing him for a murder being the reason he was kicked out of the Foot and the turtles growing at a normal rate rather than instantly becoming teenagers like in the "Turtle Tracks".

I believe Armaggon stated in the story that Baxter was left behind to face the turtles alone so I guess we can safely assume he was handed in to the police and locked up again. As for Shredder being taken away by Armaggon...well this was a huge continuity but a reader might try and make an intuitive leap that Archie worked with the marvel method that time travel doesn't actualy change anything, all it does is create an alternative universe were history unfolds differently. Perhaps that would explain why future Don and Raph had no qualms of messing with history and why Shredder was still around for the Final Conflict etc. (although it wouldn't explain why he remembered the turtles helping him when his body had been taken over by Krang)

That's exactly how the mutagen works in other versions than the 1987 cartoon and the Archie comics.

[Coola Yagami]

I think he meant to say in the cartoons, Mutagen muates you instantly. Hence, the Turtles had no 'childhood' per say, as they went from normal turtles to teenage humanoid turtles in seconds. The other issue after the Future Shark trilogy retconned this and made the turtles mutate into turtle kids and actually slowly grow up into teenagers. As well as other issues after that started having Turtle Kiddie flashback stories.

Another slight retcon was having Rocksteady dream and long for the days of him running through fields amongst the wild as if he was always a rhino. He was supposed to be a punk mutated into a rhino... but those last issues with him made him seem like he was a rhino mutated into humanoid form much like the Turtles were. That whole dream thing, though adding a slightly deeper aspect to Rocksteady, was just plain weird.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

I think he meant to say in the cartoons, Mutagen muates you instantly. Hence, the Turtles had no 'childhood' per say, as they went from normal turtles to teenage humanoid turtles in seconds. The other issue after the Future Shark trilogy retconned this and made the turtles mutate into turtle kids and actually slowly grow up into teenagers. As well as other issues after that started having Turtle Kiddie flashback stories.

Another slight retcon was having Rocksteady dream and long for the days of him running through fields amongst the wild as if he was always a rhino. He was supposed to be a punk mutated into a rhino... but those last issues with him made him seem like he was a rhino mutated into humanoid form much like the Turtles were. That whole dream thing, though adding a slightly deeper aspect to Rocksteady, was just plain weird.

Rocksteady dreaming of a rhino girl in Africa is probably just a symbol for longing to the wilderness. Remember he also says it was when the Earth was still "young and strong", he wasn't even alive back then.

[darthsmozers]

In the Archie comics, Splinter is seen preventing the TMNT from follow Shredder and Baxter Stockman in "The Incredible Shrinking Turtles", just like in the 1987 cartoon episode with the same name and story. In the 1987 cartoon, the story countinues with the Eye of Sarnath stories, and the Archie comics changes to "Something Fishy Goes Down" and the Eye of Sarnath seems forgotten. But in the "Future Shark" trilogy, a flashback of "The Incredible Shrinking Turtles" shows Leonardo follow Shredder and Baxter Stockman down a ladder to the the basement of the cheese packing plant, and Armaggon appears from the time portal and goes with Shredder from the present to the future. I wonder:

*Why does Leonardo go to the basement, when Splinter is seen preventing the turtles from following Shredder and Baxter Stockman?
*Baxter Stockman didn't follow Shredder and Armaggon to the future, what happened to him in the Archie comics: (He couldn't escape up the ladder as Leonardo was just climbing down it)?
*Just after Shredder and Armaggon arrive in the future, the time machine explodes. How can Shredder be back in "Something Fishy Goes Down"?

Never thought of it :| Whoa

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Did anyone of you thought of this as kids (if you were alive back then)?

[Cipher]

I'd only read two issues of the series as a kid. Now I've read more (but not as much as I'd like).

As for the Shredder-Armaggon thing, the only explanation that makes sense is that in TMNT Adventures, time-travel creates a new timeline, rather than altering the future.

This means that the past Armaggon went to is not the same one we saw in the comic. When Armaggon came for Shredder he created a new timeline where Shredder didn't return, never had Krang attached to him, etc. This is not the timeline we see as readers. So in effect, there are two Shredders in the series: the one in the future with Armaggon, and one who never went to the future and stayed around for "Something Fishy."

Another hint of this time-travel theory: When the Mutanimals die in the current timeline, Future Don says "They weren't supposed to die! Not like this! Not now!" This again implies that an alternate timeline has been created. Otherwise, Future Don's memory would've been altered according to the new past and he wouldn't have found their deaths strange.

I hope that makes sense.

[Coola Yagami]

The only sick thing about it is that with all the time travel mumbo-jumbo, they never tried going back in time to stop the Mutinamals from being slaughtered.

[Cipher]

The only sick thing about it is that with all the time travel mumbo-jumbo, they never tried going back in time to stop the Mutinamals from being slaughtered.But the way their time-travel works, it wouldn't have brought back the Mutanimals that had already died. It would just have created an alternate world where they weren't slaughtered.

And actually, judging from Future Don's reaction, the Mutanimals may only have died because the timeline was changed. All the infinite number of other times Armaggon chose not to go back to would end up just like the future we saw, and thus would not contain the Mutanimal slaughter.

I realize how confusing this all sounds.

[Jester]

Welcome to time travel my friends, you have several theories, and all sorts of stuff. The big question is how Shredder, when he and Verminator are trying to steal the Black Stone of Mecca, could remember having the Turtles save him from having Krang grafted to his head, when later Armaggon says that that Shredder was kidnapped while possessing the Eye of Sarnath, which happens, what, 20 issues or so before the whole Krang/Shredder thing...

[Jon]

Yes, time-travel can be a very strange thing.

Though, another thought on how Shredder would know other events, etc. after that point in time -- maybe he was "put back into" the timeline after Armaggon got the Eye from him, to keep things going "as they have". Then taken to the future again at that later date.

Oh man, more awkward time-travel scenerios.

[Kendamu]

Did anyone of you thought of this as kids (if you were alive back then)?
I didn't read TMNT Adventures much as a kid so I didn't think about it at all. Still, I wouldn't even think that much about it today. As long as I enjoy the stories and they, for the most part, make some sort of sense I can forgive a few plotholes and retcons here and there.

I mean, its a comic! Comics are full of that kind of stuff! It comes with the territory.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Yes, time-travel can be a very strange thing.

Though, another thought on how Shredder would know other events, etc. after that point in time -- maybe he was "put back into" the timeline after Armaggon got the Eye from him, to keep things going "as they have". Then taken to the future again at that later date.

Oh man, more awkward time-travel scenerios.

No, the time machine exploded when Shredder and Armaggon arrived in the future.

[darthsmozers]

No, the time machine exploded when Shredder and Armaggon arrived in the future.

i was just rereading this thread and was about to also suggest he was put back into the timeline, but now you've given me a headache haha.

[Zage]

Maybe there was 2 Shredders, & maybe one of them was Karai as Shredder? ;)

[Mr._Mutant_Man]

Did anyone of you thought of this as kids (if you were alive back then)?

No. I also didn't start reading Future Shark Trilogy until part three, so I was really confused as to why there was another Raphael and Donatello running around.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

Maybe there was 2 Shredders, & maybe one of them was Karai as Shredder? ;)

Karai doesn't appear in this story. But maybe two different timelines were created (I hate time travel fiction, my head hurts).