A Look At The Themes of "City At War"

[Cipher]

"Hey, who's this guy?" Long time browser, first time poster. I was glancing over a topic recently and something caught my eye enough to finally join and post. In a certain nameless thread, Tristan made this shocking (to me, anyway) assertion:

See I don't even think that. I think it would be better to drop the Shredder/Splinter relationship much later, and make it almost a surprise to Splinter, in a similar way to how it was done in the 2k3 series.
Why so shocking? Because the idea that Splinter trained the turtles to kill Oroku Saki was the basis for all of Mirage Vol. 1, and more importantly, the thematic cornerstone of City At War, the pinnacle of TMNT writing.

I took a mental trip back to that arc, it's themes, and now I'd like to lay them down for discussion. In the end, City At War says one thing: Honor is not worth the sacrifices it requires.

It's well established that the Foot Clan's in-fighting is the ultimate result of the Turtles killing Saki. That is, it began with Splinter's blood fued against Saki. The choice to send his students out to avenge Yoshi confirms Splinter's strong belief in honor. It his his duty to avenge his master, no matter the cost. This is the code by which he, and consequently the Turtles, have always lived.

Only when Leonardo sees the innocent victims of a street brawl in City At War, is this belief called into question. After retreating from a "maelstorm of violence," Leonardo ponders whether or not they should take action against the Foot. The other Turtles protest. They are, after all, bound by honor to continue the fight. Leonard retorts, "I know what I saw." An innocent killed, a victim of Splinter's code of honor.

The next few issues find the Turtles moping, and an admittedly unmotivated Leonardo. It's easy to attribute the behavior to their missing master and friends, but the real cause is nothing less than the fact that the Turtles are being forced to question their guiding principle for the first time. The climax of this inner turmoil comes from the Turtles' musings over Karai's proposal. Leonardo concludes that they have been fighting the Foot not out of righteousness, but because of Splinter's fued. He then says, and I love this line, "I would gladly die for Master Splinter. But I don't know if I can give him my life."

Just like that, the Turtle's code of honor is cast aside for one of survival and freedom. It's not worth the pain, they conclude. For the rest of the Mirage continuity, we see a subtly calmer group of Turtles. The stories from here on out seem to have less direction, but it should be noted that the same can (happily) be said of the characters themselves.

Meanwhile, Splinter goes through parallel trials. As he lays broken at the base of a silo, he struggles to maintain his code of honor, refusing to give into his survivalist instincts and eat the rats around him. Finally, he like his students, abandons this honor in favor of survival and, heeding the Rat King's advice, feeds on prey as he needs to. It is for this reason that he stumbled upon the silo in the first place, that he was unable to find enlightment: his ideals were misguided and obsolete.

Finally, in stark contrast to the Turtles and Splinter, we have Karai and the Foot Elite. The Elite, and this should be obvious, follow their twisted code of honor to their collective graves. Such obligation also costs Karai her daughter, and by the story's end she is still yet to learn her lesson. Giving herself no time to grieve, she states that honor and duty command her to return to Foot Headquaters and continue her leadership.

"Can't you change things?" asks a newly enlighted, vengeance-free Michaelangelo. Karai, lacking such growth, answers no.

So it is that the story ends with Donatello and Splinter training in a cave, grappling with the loss of their former principles.

City At War presents a turning point in the Turtles' lives. It remains the deepest TMNT story written, and by golly, it all hinges on Splinter's cold and calculated quest for vengeance.

Discuss my conclusions, the story arc, and your opinions on the less-than-perfect Mirage Splinter here.

[SHREDDER-X]

DAMNNNNNNNNN !!! I never really thought about CAW, before that AWESOME breakdown. You are right on all counts of your review. I think if TMNT didn't have so many people stereotyping it as for " kids", CITY AT WAR could rank right up there with DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and WATCHMEN.

[Machias Banshee]

*Offers Cipher a :mango: of Welcome*

I'm ashamed to admit that I've never actually read CAW. But when I see a Solid analysis like this, my inner (and outer) Writer screams at me to go and pick it up. THIS is the kind of thought I like to see when it comes to talking about storylines...

*geeks out*

[TristanHuwJones]

I had a feeling this was going to come up eventually.

Understand that what works in comics and what works in film are two entirely different things.

In the comics, yes, Splinter is far from the perfect father/sensei he is seen to be in the cartoons and films, but this is because in comics you have the luxury of time that films do not. Films are a substantially more unstable medium than comic books. With a film, you have to take liberties and shortcuts to tell a story and have it make sense.

I'm against the clock right now, so I'll elaborate further later, but you cannot make City At War into a movie that is faithful to the themes of the comics without first having films that adapt the overall Shredder arc that encompasses #1-11 of the comics, and the Return to New York story. The other thing about City at War is that, while it brings closure to the Shredder/Splinter story, it opens the doors to everything that followed - Karai, the power vacuum after the Foot were reformed, Stockman's return, Shadow, etc.

The discussion you quoted talked about reinventing the concepts for film. At the moment, Turtles would be lucky enough to get one more film out the gate, so you can't afford to go into things that have the moral repercussions of Splinter's vendetta, let alone an epic like City at War when you haven't even laid out the groundwork for a story that huge. Once you have a film that you know is going places (sequels) then you can start delving into these sorts of things, which is why I suggested you don't pin yourself down with too much back story in the opening movie. You give them the Turtles, you HINT at the past and you let the audience take it or leave it, and chances are that if they're in the cinemas in the first place to see Ninja Turtles in a movie, then they've already accepted the status quo.

The logic behind what I was saying was this: Splinter was raised by Hamato Yoshi. We all know that he mimicked Yoshi and that he learned everything from Yoshi, but this was before the mutagen made him intelligent (or more so than before). By the time he was affected by the mutagen, he'd already come into contact with the Turtles. Logically, from a LIVE ACTION film point of view, in the same vein as The Dark Knight or X-men (which seems to be the direction everyone wants for a TMNT movie) Splinter is just an ordinary rat who has had Yoshi's martial arts imprinted on him UNTIL that point where he mutates. As his brain develops and he becomes what he becomes, he has to learn things, but he still has the martial arts imprinted in his being. Splinter also has to teach the Turtles, but Splinter would also have to be learning as he develops, so what is he going to teach the Turtles? Only the things he knows, and what does he know best? Ninjitsu. The Turtles and Splinter have 15 years to develop until TMNT #1 happens (which is also the logical starting point for the first of these hypothetical movies), so they become what they become through Splinter teaching himself and the Turtles.

But then you have to consider this: Splinter would have to have followed Oroku Saki constantly over the time he mutates to know that Shredder and Oroku Saki are one and the same, which to me, isn't plausible. If you wanted to take the realistic route, and make for much more dramatic story telling in the shorter time frame you have (compared to comics), it would make more sense that one of two things happen when Saki kills Yoshi and Splinter escapes: 1) Saki kills Yoshi WITHOUT the Shredder armour, just as he does in the original film, which would mean that Splinter would not make the Shredder/Saki connection until much later, and 2)Saki kills Yoshi IN the Shredder armour, but Splinter, being a simple animal probably wouldn't understand what was being said, as it would be completely outside of his basic grasp of the human language at the time (like any dog, cat or domesticated animal outside of a fish). He might retain the VISUAL of the Shredder, but the connection between the Shredder and Saki would still be hidden. When the two come together further down the road, it makes for much for dramatic CINEMA, and while it could make for dramatic COMIC story telling, what we have in the comics is just as effective, if not more so.

If there were as many Turtles movies that were allowed to do the things that the comics do, sure, you could do exactly what the comics do regarding themes and the like, but when you have a film that has to cater to a large variety of audiences including the hardcores, you have to make compromises and liberties. It goes right back to what I said about how different the Batman, Spiderman and X-men movies all are to their source material. You can still make a good movie that is faithful to the comics without making it exactly like the comics.

Ultimately, that's my point. You can't make these comics into films exactly the way they are, the devices and story telling used are completely different due to a variety of factors, but the primary ones are always going to be money and time.

[Cipher]

Understand that what works in comics and what works in film are two entirely different things.I'm completely with you there, and I meant no disrespect, although it may have seemed that way.

I'm against the clock right now, so I'll elaborate further later, but you cannot make City At War into a movie that is faithful to the themes of the comics without first having films that adapt the overall Shredder arc that encompasses #1-11 of the comics, and the Return to New York story.The only elements needed to set up City At War are the death of Oroku Saki (for the plot), and a vengeful Splinter (for the themes). Those could easily be established in one movie. Hell, the first movie could be about Baxter Stockman, the second about Shredder, and the third about City At War. As long as it's established that Splinter intended to have the Turtles kill Shredder from day one, everything works thematically too.

You could, for example, have Splinter not mention the Foot Clan once until the second movie, as long as when he does mention it he says, "You're now ready to avenge my master." That was the element you suggested removing, and I didn't see a cause for it. As long as Splinter carries the fued, the option of adapting City At War (which is nothing without its themes) is open. If you change that element, the option of City At War is barred, and with it, the best of Turtles stories.

Maybe it was a mistake to begin with that quote. I really wanted this to be a discussion about the story, it's themes, and Splinter. But it's all part-and-parcel, I guess.

But then you have to consider this: Splinter would have to have followed Oroku Saki constantly over the time he mutates to know that Shredder and Oroku Saki are one and the same, which to me, isn't plausible.The list of comic elements that are totally absurd, yet iconic enough for the public to swallow is a long one.

[oldmanwinters]

It is good to see first time posters who really know what they are talking about. This is so much more refreshing than somebody who decides to start up "Who would win?" threads. (I'm talking about you, "superturle":lol:)

Thanks for putting those themes into persepctive for me, Cipher. It is a very good insight. I would like to see more development of the codes of honor (or drive) each turtle decides to substitute for their abandoned code of vengeance they grew up with.

In Tales of TMNT Vol. 2, #9, Michaelangelo openly disagrees with Splinter's intense survival instruction in favor of unselfish benevolence. By the end of the story, Splinter recognizes that Michaelangelo possesses an insight that even he should appreciate. Perhaps this is the result of Splinter's acceptance of the failure of his own code?

[Jester]

*looks at his 2 issues of CaW in disgust*
Why must there only be 2 of you, huh? Why not all of you?

Ok, I'll admit, I've never really read any Mirage comics (save volume 4) and after reading this I regret it. Cipher, your post sums up why Graphic Novels are still good literature. They may have pictures and word balloons, but they still convey all that makes up good literature.

But, as I have no basis in the Mirage universe, might I ask about the adaptation for the small screen, the 2k3 arc "City at War" does this version of the events, fall short of truely exploring this dynamic? Off hand I'd have to say yes, but then again, like Tristan said, when literature is adapted for the screen, more often than not it loses something in translation.

[Cipher]

Ok, I'll admit, I've never really read any Mirage comics (save volume 4) and after reading this I regret it. Cipher, your post sums up why Graphic Novels are still good literature.Actually, I've only read the first 11 issues, the first Tales volume, City At War, and Volume 4. But yeah, someone needs to get these things out in trade-paperback at major bookstores, pronto.

But, as I have no basis in the Mirage universe, might I ask about the adaptation for the small screen, the 2k3 arc "City at War" does this version of the events, fall short of truely exploring this dynamic?The cartoon adaptation is a very loose translation the Turtles' part of the story, in plot only. Splinter, April, and Casey's arcs are totally missing, as are the deeper elements that make it a great story.

To clarify, I'm not one of those "We need ninjas all the time!" fans. We just need deeper stories. Volume 4, with aliens arriving and the Turtles being able to walk among humans for the first time, has mounds of potential, but it's only been utilized as a pulp serial so far.

[Jester]

Oh, yeah, Casey's arc involves Shadow and her mother, right?

[Cipher]

Oh, yeah, Casey's arc involves Shadow and her mother, right?Yeah. I just didn't bring it up because it didn't tie as conviently into the honor motif as the others. (Not that connections aren't present.)

[Jester]

In Casey's case (man, that came out weird.) the the honor/survival angles almost come together, Casey shows true honor, in taking on a responcibility that isn't his, helping a baby girl survive.

[TristanHuwJones]

I'm completely with you there, and I meant no disrespect, although it may have seemed that way.

No, no, I never took it that way, I just wanted to put the quote into context in case other people read it the wrong way :)


The only elements needed to set up City At War are the death of Oroku Saki (for the plot), and a vengeful Splinter (for the themes). Those could easily be established in one movie. Hell, the first movie could be about Baxter Stockman, the second about Shredder, and the third about City At War. As long as it's established that Splinter intended to have the Turtles kill Shredder from day one, everything works thematically too.

See I think the dynamic for a film would need to shift slightly. To be honest, I don't think that chain of events you suggested would work in film, because you'd have to severely cut the Shredder story short unless you just went ahead and remade the original movie. In my mind, you'd have the Turtles being defeated by the Shredder at the end of the Second part, and then have Return to New York in the Third.

I don't think it would be in the forefront of Splinter's mind when he started raising the Turtles. I'm sure it would be there, but there would be other priorities. Eventually, it would most certainly all fall into place, but I don't think it would be as straightforward as it was in TMNT #1 is all. Especially if you wanted to play it Christopher Nolan style. If you look at how they change Bruce's motivations to become Batman in Begins, they take the original (I'm Batman because crims shot my parents) idea and expand on it significantly, and it all falls into place perfectly.

You could, for example, have Splinter not mention the Foot Clan once until the second movie, as long as when he does mention it he says, "You're now ready to avenge my master." That was the element you suggested removing, and I didn't see a cause for it. As long as Splinter carries the fued, the option of adapting City At War (which is nothing without its themes) is open. If you change that element, the option of City At War is barred, and with it, the best of Turtles stories.

But that said, do you honestly think that the Turtles movies, if rebooted as was suggested in the thread, would make it to City at War? You'd have to significantly truncate sections of it anyway, unless you were going on to make a number of following sequels. Hypothetically yes, you could keep everything in there and have the films go forever, but realistically, it's not going to happen. That's my point. Thinking realistically, and as I said, REBOOTING the concepts and ideas (meaning staying true, but not staying the same ALA Dark Knight and Begins), you CAN get away with removing that element. Ultimately, Splinter would tell them that their training has brought them to a point where they can bring justice to Yoshi, but not with the prospects of starting the City at War Arc in it's entirety.

That also said, you never want to close yourself off to certain possibilities.


Maybe it was a mistake to begin with that quote. I really wanted this to be a discussion about the story, it's themes, and Splinter. But it's all part-and-parcel, I guess.

That's cool, I know where you were going, but I think the quote is taken somewhat out of context for this discussion.

The list of comic elements that are totally absurd, yet iconic enough for the public to swallow is a long one.

This is true, but it's still a very different ball-game and you still have to rework those elements.

Anyway, back on to topic, I'm glad this subject has been brought up, especially by a newcomer to the boards, because I'm always glad to see that people are getting the comics on an intellectual level (as well as physically getting them of course).

This whole idea that the Turtles now have to find their own purpose and identity in a world without the Shredder is something I have planned as a running thread throughout my next few tales. It won't be immediately apparent, as some things have to happen first, but it's what I'm driving towards, as I think the carry on effects are interesting, particular for Leonardo.

[TristanHuwJones]

But, as I have no basis in the Mirage universe, might I ask about the adaptation for the small screen, the 2k3 arc "City at War" does this version of the events, fall short of truely exploring this dynamic? Off hand I'd have to say yes, but then again, like Tristan said, when literature is adapted for the screen, more often than not it loses something in translation.

It plays out well enough for the cartoon, and throws a couple of interesting ideas into the mix, but it really does fall very short thematically.

[Jester]

Yea, intellegent conversation. Sorry, I'd forgotten what it looked like. Carry on. :p

[TristanHuwJones]

Yea, intellegent conversation. Sorry, I'd forgotten what it looked like. Carry on. :p

:lol:

Hopefully this won't start to burn later...

[Machias Banshee]

*swats Jester with a Frozen Tuna*

Stay on-topic!

Well, hopefully people will Be respectful and not cause a ruckus... I know I'm LOVING reading this. :anime:

[Jester]

Yes'em.

One wonders what the Turtles thought of the 13 years of ninja training. Why Splinter was so hard on them to practice, what good learning it was when they never ventured above ground? Was it just a way of occupying time? And if Splinter taught the boys the arts for only revenge, did he teach them the whole of the martial arts? Most places I hear of say it's a "just in case" art, which teaches more than just fighting to destroy ones enemies.

EDIT: And if that's the case, was Splinter really a father who treated the Turtles like sons, or just a ninja master, training them as tools to carry out his revenge?

[Cipher]

EDIT: And if that's the case, was Splinter really a father who treated the Turtles like sons, or just a ninja master, training them as tools to carry out his revenge?He's definately a father figure in all incarnations, but in the Mirage version it's important that he also has the revenge aspect going.

[Ninjinister]

The Turtles have both the blessing and the curse of having their first villain be their most iconic. Most heroes fight unremarkable nobodies that are rarely reused, and never seen in any media adaptations. However, everybody and their mother knows who The Shredder is.

If I were to make TMNT films starting from the beginning to include City At War as the penultimate chapter to a trilogy, I'd begin with a loose conversion of issue 1 with Baxter/April and Casey's introductions as sub-plots. Movie two would begin with Shredder returning and kicking Turtle ass in the very beginning, the Turtles facing Rat King as part of their restructuring as a family, and Return to New York making up the finale. The third film, of course, would be City At War.

[PAAATE]

I'm always glad to see that people are getting the comics on an intellectual level

Yeah, me too... But I can't do it myself... :cry: I can "feel" the comics on an intellectual level, but I can never find the right words to formulate my "feelings" :cry:

Anyway, very interesting discussion.. Keep it going :D

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

It is good to see first time posters who really know what they are talking about. This is so much more refreshing than somebody who decides to start up "Who would win?" threads. (I'm talking about you, "superturle":lol:)

Thanks for putting those themes into persepctive for me, Cipher. It is a very good insight. I would like to see more development of the codes of honor (or drive) each turtle decides to substitute for their abandoned code of vengeance they grew up with.

In Tales of TMNT Vol. 2, #9, Michaelangelo openly disagrees with Splinter's intense survival instruction in favor of unselfish benevolence. By the end of the story, Splinter recognizes that Michaelangelo possess an insight that even he should appreciate. Perhaps this is the result of Splinter's acceptance of the failure of his own code?

Didn't we have more interesting threads (some like this) here some years ago (before I arrived, but i recall reading here in 2004 and 2005) than today (or was the entire activity here higher then than now).

[odupianist]

I kind of saw the themes a bit in CaW, but Cipher, damn son, you went deeper than I would have imagined to ever go for ANY comic. I like it though. The thing I like is that you have the contrast of the TMNT's arc with April's arc who is trying to start anew, change things up, and it doesn't work and she has to go back to her old ways so to speak.

[TristanHuwJones]

Actually, if anything, April does start anew. She embraces the world that she's been part of and moves on if anything.

[odupianist]

She tries, but then ends up getting sucked in (sort of) back to the old way of things.