New TMNT scale/lineup

[dogmeatsausage]

http://http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E_PC-PV9SUQ/SN57Rjqr3wI/AAAAAAAAAco/iEfQapUIwTU/s1600-h/turtle_scale.jpg

I did this as a starting point to try and differentiate the turtles for any of my future issues starting with 56. I really tried to much the shape with their personalities and match musculature with the weapons and what I'd imagine to be the different nature and specialization of each of their fighting techniques. So if you look closely there's more muscle definition for some and in certain areas , also slightly different head shapes, and even head band widths/shapes. It's gonna be a little tough to make sure i can emphasize those differences in the actual books but i'm gonna try and I'm looking to try some new inking techniques on this drawing which I'll share.
so please let me know what you think and which turtle is which?

hmm the image embedded link didnt seem to work, try here:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E_PC-PV9SUQ/SN57Rjqr3wI/AAAAAAAAAco/iEfQapUIwTU/s1600-h/turtle_scale.jpg

[Ninjinister]

I'm going to say Michelangelo, Leonardo, Donatello, Raphael.

[The Shelf]

Mike and Raph are usually the easiest ones to tell a difference. I'm going to have to agree with The S, except I would switch Leo and Don. So:
Mike, Don, Leo, Raph.

[Buffy]

First of all, great drawing and welcome to the board! I hope to see many many more of your turtle drawings! :)

I agree with the S: Mike, Leo, Don and Raph.

[dogmeatsausage]

thanks buffy I'm happy to be here!
one of the lineups was correct, but before i confirm it I would say look closely at the don and leo model and their build, their personalities that would attribute to their physique, their facial expression, the weapon they would use...maybe that will help to decipher

[FearlessLeader]

I am going to agree with The Shelf's take and say Mike, Don, Leo and Raph.


I went back and forth for sometime about Leo and Don, because a lot of the time Leo is protrayed taller then Don is, but it's the muscle definition that the 3rd Turtle has in his arms that makes me think he is a swordsman.

Interested to see the correct answer!

[Buffy]

I've changed my mind: I think it's Mike, Don, Leo and Raph but I'm not really sure.

[ToTheNines]

I'd probably put money on Mike, Don, Leo, Raph.

[oldmanwinters]

I think turtle #2 is Don because he needs to be tall to stuff a bo staff on his back. Swords aren't quite as long as a staff. Also, #2 has a docile more contemplative expression than #3.

[Raph'N'Roll]

Reira: I am going to agree with The Shelf's take and say Mike, Don, Leo and Raph.



oldmanwinters: I think turtle #2 is Don because he needs to be tall to stuff a bo staff on his back.


Yep that's my take too, and Don being the tallest does make a lot of sense with regards to his choice of weapon.

[Machias Banshee]

I agree with Nines: Mike Don Leo Raph...

*gives dogmeatsausage a mango of welcome*

:mango:

[odupianist]

If you look at the Don/Leo turtles, you can tell Don's on the left because of the more calm expression.

[Aztec General]

Mike, Don, Leo, Raph

[Machias Banshee]

I just wanted to elaborate on my choices for the picture. I love how the turtles aren't exact carbon copies.. You can Really set them apart by muscle definition.

The first to me is obviously Mike. The expression, the body language... that's our youngest brother.

Now, some people might automatically think that the second one is Leonardo. Probably because of the height - People tend to subconciously tie height to authority. (which is why I like Splinter drawn tall, but that's a different subject... :P )

I see the second one as Don, and the third one is Leo. Reason being, Leo's swords weigh a lot, and each arm has to support an individual weight, resulting in larger biceps - Whereas Don supports one item with both hands. And using a bo with slow deliberate movement tends to create long, smooth muscle.

Raph is covered in short thick muscle from his quick sai movements - the sai is probably the lightest weapon, which makes for less swing in the weapon, and less muscle fatigue. So the muscles grow short, thick and strong. He's basically built like a tank...


I definitely spend too much time thinking about this stuff... :P *hugs her martial arts and anatomy notebooks* I definitely can't wait to see what you come up with DMS...

[Andrew NDB]

According to the Mirage-approved RPG sourcebooks Palladium put out in the 80s...

(these are the actual heights, not just ballparking or pulling out of my ass here)

Raphael should be 4'6"

Leonardo should be 4'9"

Donatello should be 5'

Michelangelo should be 4'8"

And you, sir, do fantastic work. I wouldn't get too worried about going out of your way to make the Turtles look physically different from one another. Your attention to detail is admirable but this isn't the children's cartoons and isn't for that audience, plus they kinda are supposed to look alike.

[Andrew NDB]

Reason being, Leo's swords weigh a lot,

You've never held a katana, have you?

I'm not poking fun, I'm genuinely asking. Because they're pretty light weight. That's pretty much the whole purpose of them.

Though yes, of all the weapons the Turtles have, probably the katanas are the heaviest. Mike's nunchaku being a close second.

[Ninjinister]

You've never held a katana, have you?

I'm not poking fun, I'm genuinely asking. Because they're pretty light weight. That's pretty much the whole purpose of them.

Though yes, of all the weapons the Turtles have, probably the katanas are the heaviest. Mike's nunchaku being a close second.

I was honestly thinking the same thing. All of the Turtles' weapons are pretty light. Honestly, out of all of them, you use more muscles and therefore tone them more, with a bo.

The reason I thought #2 was Leo and #3 was Don, is because #2 looks more focused, while #3 looks more contemplative.

[TristanHuwJones]

According to the Mirage-approved RPG sourcebooks Palladium put out in the 80s...

(these are the actual heights, not just ballparking or pulling out of my ass here)

Raphael should be 4'6"

Leonardo should be 4'9"

Donatello should be 5'

Michelangelo should be 4'8"

And you, sir, do fantastic work. I wouldn't get too worried about going out of your way to make the Turtles look physically different from one another. Your attention to detail is admirable but this isn't the children's cartoons and isn't for that audience, plus they kinda are supposed to look alike.

This grew out of discussion Paul and I had had a while ago about the Turtles and trying a few things visually. It might not mean a whole lot to us, because we generally know who's who (except for that mysterious fifth turtle... Kirby? Slash? Tokka? Pre-pubescent Venus?! MURPH?!)

This came (for me at least) out of pushing that sense of realism, but also I'd have my friends asking who is who in a black and white comic. I think there are characteristics that suit each of them physically that you can generally see across the board with other teams as well, and while I don't think we're ultimately trying to make them like those other teams, we just thought it might be cool to try something different and really bring the characters out more. So ultimately it has nothing to do with the kids, more just us wanting to play around a bit. It's kind of like if you switched the personalities of all the ghostbusters, it wouldn't feel right, but if you accentuate certain characteristics of those characters visually, you can really build on them (which is why The Real Ghostbusters worked so well in spite of the glaring visual differences!). Admittedly there's a slight element there in my mind that says "hopefully you dummies at Newsarama can figure out which is which now without us having to show weapons or name names constantly), but it's always about characters for me, first and foremost.

Ha! Without even referring to those RPG scales (which, although approved, I don't consider canon with the comic universe... sorry guys :() I think the visual is pretty close to those scales!

[TristanHuwJones]

I was honestly thinking the same thing. All of the Turtles' weapons are pretty light. Honestly, out of all of them, you use more muscles and therefore tone them more, with a bo.

The reason I thought #2 was Leo and #3 was Don, is because #2 looks more focused, while #3 looks more contemplative.

It could be that Don is the most focused of the whole lot when you think about this in context. The stories Paul and I are working on are set after Don has spent months training in a cave with Splinter to better himself, and Leo is now fighting a 3 turtle war (soon to be four, along with some trusted friends I guess) against the Shredder's loyalists, the rising Purple Dragons, and a number of other 'yet-to-be-revealed' threats all vying for power over NYC. Knowing Leo, and his tendency towards insecurity, I'd say Don is definitely the most focused of the four. Leo's mind is going to be in a lot of places at once... probably... ;)

[Andrew NDB]

Fair enough, Tristan.

One thing I'll say about the art since Mr. Harmon is here. Literally, the only thing that bugs me about his take on the TMNT. And it isn't even like it bugs me... it's just kind of an, "Aw, I wish he woulda..." sorta thing.

Leonardo's scabbards and their straps. The crisscrossing of the straps over his plastron in an "X" (and the scabbards also forming an "X" over the rear shell) was a cartoon, action figure, and Archie thing... in the Eastman & Laird Mirage stuff the straps (two of them) run diagonally side-by-side from the left side of his belt to over the right shoulder to meet the two scabbards that are side-by-side diagonally across the back shell... not cris-crissing and not forming an "X."

There you have it. If I had to pick a nit, there it is.

[TristanHuwJones]

Fair enough, Tristan.

One thing I'll say about the art since Mr. Harmon is here. Literally, the only thing that bugs me about his take on the TMNT. And it isn't even like it bugs me... it's just kind of an, "Aw, I wish he woulda..." sorta thing.

Leonardo's scabbards and their straps. The crisscrossing of the straps over his plastron in an "X" (and the scabbards also forming an "X" over the rear shell) was a cartoon, action figure, and Archie thing... in the Eastman & Laird Mirage stuff the straps (two of them) run diagonally side-by-side from the left side of his belt to over the right shoulder to meet the two scabbards that are side-by-side diagonally across the back shell... not cris-crissing and not forming an "X."

There you have it. If I had to pick a nit, there it is.

:lol: The man is right there dude, you don't need to tell me!

[Andrew NDB]

Indeed.

Here's an illustration of what I mean.

http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/leo.jpg

That's pretty much the definitive Leo look to me (the idea of stacking the katanas in scabbards on top of each other to form an X over the back shell has always seemed a little absurd to me, though it's a perfectly sound artistic interpretation). Though I do like what A.C. did with the "look" of the belt as well.

http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/tmnt/leo.gif

[Machias Banshee]

You've never held a katana, have you?

I'm not poking fun, I'm genuinely asking. Because they're pretty light weight. That's pretty much the whole purpose of them.

Though yes, of all the weapons the Turtles have, probably the katanas are the heaviest. Mike's nunchaku being a close second.

I will admit, the only sword I have held is some practice ones that belonged to a friend, which had some considerable weight to them. But yes, I was referring to the katanas weight compared to the other weapons..


And I also like the use of the two side straps instead of the criss-cross on Leo's scabbard.

[dogmeatsausage]

Thanks for everyones responses! There so many good points that have sparked ideas let's see if i can get them down. One interesting thing is the sort of unintentional details/differences that people have picked up on that i didn't necessarily do intentionally or thought of at the time that does still sort of play to each character. I agree with the points made about the effects of muscle tone due to type of weapon use but I also thought about it as a personality thing. I could see raph doing enraged powerlifting while leo might have something like a Bruce lee fanaticism.
Yes Tristan pointed it out but yes the idea of diffentiating the characters is to add another layer of realism, and I think visual interest and ,since trist and i seem to have identical minds when it comes to tmnt aesthetics, i think he would agree it's just a very natural place to go with these nearly identical characters.

Too Andrew's point about the swords...It's funny to me because even though my style is very loose almost everything I do is about making things feal naturalistic and somewhat real and have physicality. In fact if it was totally up to me I would be drawing the turtles with eyes (i'm not sure if many people would like that), I just don't personally like the white-eyed super-heroes in general but for turtles it still works.
But back to the sword thing I really don't want to tinker with too much of the iconography but my problem with both swords on one side: There is NO WAY you could grab both swords! He would have to use one hand to grab each sword and toss it to his other hand. Really the swords should be at his hips one on each side so he can draw simultaneously but i dont want to change that but both swords on one side is too much for my suspension of disbelief as funny as that may be too some. :)

[Andrew NDB]

Good points, Paul. Though I don't really agree about the physicality of the katanas. I guess the problem is not so much your drawing of the Turtles (you actually draw the katanas correctly) but in the past, the longstanding yet incorrect portrayal of Leonardo's twin katanas as straight instead of curved. Like he had ninjatos, instead of katanas. They should actually be daisho: a katana and its shorter brother, the wakizashi (both very curved), but the ship sailed on trying to retroactively fix that some time ago. Anyway, my point is that yes, if the katanas were straight -- like ninjato -- then yes, it's physically impossible for Leo to withdraw them from the scabbards if he has to reach back to do so from a single shoulder. If they're curved and side-by-side, however, I do challenge that it's perfectly feasible. In fact, (if there was any doubt how much of a geek I am) I just went to the living room, took two of my katanas in their scabbards, took my girlfriend's aunt's belt and fitted them firmly around my upper torso in tandem, and was easily able to withdraw them in a relatively fluid motion (yes, one per hand, no exchanging) in front of the mirror... and I don't even have any ninjitsu or swordplay training.

http://www.thegreenlanterncorps.com/leos.jpg

You're right about the swords on the side. It should be daisho, and should be one on top of the other at the hip... if Leonardo was following proper samurai/swordmaster tradition.

About the eyes, I've always been on board for giving them pupils (and plenty of artists have given them pupils in the Mirage comics). They emphatically do have them... and it's not like they put in white contact lenses under their bandannas. And I'd always loved when A.C. Farley was allowed to take a crack at the TMNT, he'd give them these incredibly expressive eyes and pupils. It added this sense of wonder to them; I'd always loved that.

[dogmeatsausage]

No I had the curved katana in mind also, but it always seemed rather hard to draw katanas from your back in amy method but if you can actually grab both simultaneously that's cool and I stand corrected, me trying to imagine it...it seems so uncomfortable. Can you show me a pic of pulling the swords out at the furthest point? Just as the swords leave the scabbard?
I love farleys turtles especially the issue with the vampires and vietchs turtles kicked a ton of ass too!
It's getting super nerdy now but which sword did you grab with which arm, and do the scabbards have to have a lot of tilting room?

[Andrew NDB]

Can you show me a pic of pulling the swords out at the furthest point? Just as the swords leave the scabbard?

Of Leo in the comics, or me? The former I can probably find at least some kind of example of, the latter... I could probably arrange.

I love farleys turtles especially the issue with the vampires and vietchs turtles kicked a ton of ass too!

The vampire issue was cool, but hands down, Farley's "The Hall of Lost Legends" just blew me away. To this day.

Veitch was badass as well. "The River" three-parter was a level of excellence (perfect marriage of storytelling and art) that has been seldom seen since. I rank your and Tristan's work among those that have again.

Don't forget McCollum. "Twilight of the Ring" and the short story from Turtle Soup that spawned it were amazing, on a spiritual level we practically never see in TMNT.

It sounds like none of A.C. Farley, Veitch, or McCollum's work may be even canon anymore at Mirage (I hope I'm wrong). Which saddens me.

It's getting super nerdy now but which sword did you grab with which arm, and do the scabbards have to have a lot of tilting room?

Right with right, left with left. Not a ton of room, and it helps that the scabbards "Give" a little against the strap as you withdraw them a bit, same as I suspect they would on Leo's back/shell (it's not like the scabbards are welded into place).

[dogmeatsausage]

I want to see a pic of you drawing the swords, I'm still having trouble picturing it I'm doing the motion for reaching across to one side with both arms I guess I can see how it's pheasible (obviously it's working for you) depending on the amount of curvature, but it doesn't seem ideal. Though bring both swords across your front does seem to be a good initial pose/ strike.
I don't think I had any Mcolum? Am I forgetting some books I ahvent seen in years? Please excuse bad iPhone typing

[Ninjinister]

I want to see a pic of you drawing the swords, I'm still having trouble picturing it I'm doing the motion for reaching across to one side with both arms I guess I can see how it's pheasible (obviously it's working for you) depending on the amount of curvature, but it doesn't seem ideal. Though bring both swords across your front does seem to be a good initial pose/ strike.
I don't think I had any Mcolum? Am I forgetting some books I ahvent seen in years? Please excuse bad iPhone typing

Paul,

Having some-odd years of experience in kenjutsu, I can confirm that, yes, it is physically possible to draw the swords as Andrew has indicated. However, being as how not only do I have a very cheap webcam and no proper digital camera (although one is in the mail), as well as only one sword with a scabbard (and it being a ninjatou), I cannot illustrate.

[dogmeatsausage]

Paul,

Having some-odd years of experience in kenjutsu, I can confirm that, yes, it is physically possible to draw the swords as Andrew has indicated. However, being as how not only do I have a very cheap webcam and no proper digital camera (although one is in the mail), as well as only one sword with a scabbard (and it being a ninjatou), I cannot illustrate.
well thanks for nothing! haha just teasing ok well if someone can show me this as i do not have any sword or sword like props to see how it will look :(
but rest assured i will illustrate the proper leo katana accoutrements! :)

[dogmeatsausage]

I was just looking at that "halls of lost legend" issue online I never had that one...gonna have to ebay that puppy and the other few I've lost over the years.

[Andrew NDB]

I want to see a pic of you drawing the swords,

All right, I'll try and shoot something tomorrow. Frontal shot or a back shot?

I don't think I had any Mcolum? Am I forgetting some books I ahvent seen in years? Please excuse bad iPhone typing

http://www.ninjaturtles.com/comics/mirage/volume01/37/37.htm

Badass. The kind of issue that makes you look at the TMNT in a completely different light... and realize a tiny bit their true potential.

I was just looking at that "halls of lost legend" issue online I never had that one...gonna have to ebay that puppy and the other few I've lost over the years.

You won't regret it.

[dogmeatsausage]

front and back if you don't mind. I need to see the amount of reach and direction needed to pull out the swords.
Yup that issue I never had either, I remember waiting notoriously long for tmnt books and not being able to always go to the comic shop regularly a few of those issues slipped by. I don't know about anyone else but after the first zulli issue when one of them lost their arm, it was driving me nuts waiting for the next corresponding issues which I don't think were sequential. Those zulli issues blew my mind!!

[junkboy]

I have not unsheathed a pair of katanas in any of the versions , but i believe Paul's method sounds much easier.
I really like Paul's style of drawing the turtles, but tbh i had not paid much attention to Andrew's pointing about the shape they form on Leo's back.
Now it is mentioned, it irritated me a bit as well. But just cause of the previous drawings of Leo. If there was no such thing, i would say cross formation on back is the only way to go.

[dogmeatsausage]

thanks wind.
well, i'm really glad you brought up the issue Andrew because I would have gone on thinking that style of sword carrying was more for show then an actually working method. your gonna get your definitive leo! that's my promise :)
can you actually sheath the swords too, or is that cumbersome wherever you put them on your back?

[Venom]

Sheathing the swords from the back is rather cumbersome because you can't physically see the slots. Back when I was a kid playing with my fake plasic katanas I would situate them a little low where the top would be about even with my scapula so when I went to resheath the tip of the sword would meet the slot's edge and I could slide them in.

When I've played with real swords and tried to resheath, the length of the blade makes it awkward to position correctly even with the arm fully extended. I would usually use the hand guard to slide the sword back in.

[Andrew NDB]

Great, Paul! I'm a man of my word... I'll actually take a short video to show the unsheathing part.

It's actually kind of logical, too, if you think about it. Say there's an opponent coming upon you from the front and you need to draw-slash at the same time... if you have them in an "X" across your back, you have to do like this awkwards "X" slash that doesn't quite work right because inevitably one sword is coming against the other. Now if you have two sheaths side-by-side on one shoulder and draw both in a single motion, you can instantly cut/rake across your opponent diagonally with both with no obstruction in the same movement as unsheathing them.

Huge Zulli fan, absolutely love his work. My only thing is, y'know, stories like A.C. Farley's and McCollum's put the TMNT in radically different scenarios and stories than what we were used to and still make it work... within the Mirage E&L comics universe. Zulli's material, while awesome and I would swear by, never really made any attempt to fit within any of it, and there's always this big disconnect there with it being a pretty intentional Elseworlds. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all.

Sheathing the swords from the back is rather cumbersome because you can't physically see the slots.

True, though this is true regardless of whether the swords/scabbards are in an "X" or whether they're side-by-side on one shoulder.

[dogmeatsausage]

thanks mike83
Yeah that makes sense. I just inked the lineup if you guys click on my blog http://dogmeatsausage.blogspot.com

[Andrew NDB]

Is it Mikey, Don, Leo, Raph, by the way?

[jerome]

Paul,

first i'd like to say that i agree with andrew. It seems more logical and plus i just really like the side by side look for leo's katana.

Second....I'd just like to say that it is extremely awesome and impressive of you to not only post on this board, but to also talk about and take ideas from us fans. I think it sends a pretty strong message that you really do care about this franchise and actually want to produce a product that is appealing to all of us fans. Any time the turtles are put into your hands(and tristan's) i know i'll be getting an amazing looking and quality product. So uh...thanks:D

Ps. If i may nitpick, and i really feel bad about throwing my two cents in because i draw about as well as a cat with a magic marker and i really don't want to tell you how to do your job or turn this into a "nitpick Paul's work" thread, but I wish their bandannas were longer in the back. the shortness reminds me of the cartoon. But everything else is aces sir.

[dogmeatsausage]

Great, Paul! I'm a man of my word... I'll actually take a short video to show the unsheathing part.

It's actually kind of logical, too, if you think about it. Say there's an opponent coming upon you from the front and you need to draw-slash at the same time... if you have them in an "X" across your back, you have to do like this awkwards "X" slash that doesn't quite work right because inevitably one sword is coming against the other. Now if you have two sheaths side-by-side on one shoulder and draw both in a single motion, you can instantly cut/rake across your opponent diagonally with both with no obstruction in the same movement as unsheathing them.

Huge Zulli fan, absolutely love his work. My only thing is, y'know, stories like A.C. Farley's and McCollum's put the TMNT in radically different scenarios and stories than what we were used to and still make it work... within the Mirage E&L comics universe. Zulli's material, while awesome and I would swear by, never really made any attempt to fit within any of it, and there's always this big disconnect there with it being a pretty intentional Elseworlds. Not that there's anything wrong with that at all.

yeah you know the more i did the motion the more natural it did seem. in my head it seemed like reaching across to grab a sword would be a bit much but


True, though this is true regardless of whether the swords/scabbards are in an "X" or whether they're side-by-side on one shoulder.
you know the more I do the motion it does feel pretty natural it seems so awkward to reach over to grab a sword..thinking about...but it feels normal. the other thing with the "x" the scabbards would have to be bowing out to even pull it out.
yeah tha't true about the elseworlds thing.
yes it is mike,don,leo, raph hehe forgot to confirm that

[dogmeatsausage]

Paul,

first i'd like to say that i agree with andrew. It seems more logical and plus i just really like the side by side look for leo's katana.

Second....I'd just like to say that it is extremely awesome and impressive of you to not only post on this board, but to also talk about and take ideas from us fans. I think it sends a pretty strong message that you really do care about this franchise and actually want to produce a product that is appealing to all of us fans. Any time the turtles are put into your hands(and tristan's) i know i'll be getting an amazing looking and quality product. So uh...thanks:D

Ps. If i may nitpick, and i really feel bad about throwing my two cents in because i draw about as well as a cat with a magic marker and i really don't want to tell you how to do your job or turn this into a "nitpick Paul's work" thread, but I wish their bandannas were longer in the back. the shortness reminds me of the cartoon. But everything else is aces sir.
well, i was gonna say your welcome until you nitpicked me! hehe kidding your very welcome I'm a huge turtle fan too though I'm not totally versed on the entire series I thoroughly obsessed over the issues I had which was the good part of the first 30 issues and tales corresponding to that time. So I am more then happy to hear the nitpicks because sometimes it's stuff I'm not aware of or thinking about and if its something like the swords I'm happy to set things right.
As for the bandannas I do like drawing them longer sometimes and it's really been more of a what mood I'm in thing. The one reason maybe why I haven't drawn them really long is because it bugs me in comics when things are just constantly blowing in the wind and flapping: capes, bandannas, etc and when things are flapping people tend to really exaggerate and it makes me think of egregious spawn capes and the like. So I sort of associate those things, BUT I will make ate least one turtle have a longer bandanna next time...especially if someone is jumping or its a very windy panel ;)

[Jester]

Any confirmation as to who's who? :P

[TristanHuwJones]

egregious spawn capes

*shudder

spawn

*shudder again

[dogmeatsausage]

Any confirmation as to who's who? :Pmike don Leo raph left to right

[dogmeatsausage]

*shudder



*shudder again

Hahaha that's too funny.

[trustno1]

those look spectacular! cant wait to see your version of hun!

[Ninjinister]

*shudder



*shudder again

....

....

...Spawn

[TristanHuwJones]

Not a fan. I'm sure a Spawn fan will come out and crucify me for saying this but I always saw him as a rip of Venom and Ghost Rider, two characters I enjoyed reading more than Spawn in spite of my general disdain for Venom.

It's my understanding that the writing is very good on the title at the moment, I'm just not a fan of the character generally.

[junkboy]

Not a fan. I'm sure a Spawn fan will come out and crucify me for saying this

Already on my way :)

But there is a fact that Spawn is liked by very few people. Most ppl say i read some issues at 90s and then gave up on it. You know , Mcfarlane is coming back to the creative team by issue 185 ( i do not know if i am happy abput this or not, cause David Hine had evolved the book into a style somewhat like a psychological horror story. Few action, nice dialogues, and a fitting art to that genre by Brian Haberlin.
There was an article at Newsarama about upcoming Spawn 185 with the new team, and most ppl commented, they really did not like Spawn and most even said they were not aware that Spawn was still being published. ( a comment which made my jaw drop, cause saying that was a weird statement such as saying - i did not know Batman was still being published :) )

Everybody has tastes and every book has its ups and downs during time. But as the main flag of Image and being published since the very early Image days, i believe Spawn is a great book. They started nearly together with Savage Dragon, Erik Larsen recently stopped being an Image Publisher and said he would concentrate just on dragon, but the book's schedule is still not good. I know Larsen does all the work for the book, so it is tough but keeping a book on schedule till issue 185 ( to a few number of fans as i see now ) is not easy.

Whatever... After all Al Simmons is the man who saved the world but could not save himself at the White Light. Even the homeless have their king as it is said. The book will go on.

[TristanHuwJones]

As I said, I'd heard good things were being done with the book at the moment, but to be honest, I'm not sure what to make of McFarlane returning. Ultimately, he's just not my cup of tea. Give me the originals any day (including Venom).

[Jester]

Mike, Don, Leo, Raph left to right
I was wrong....I'm not a good as Turtle fan as I should be.

*Commits Harry Carey*
http://www.collectorsunlimited.net/Celebrities/100_3485%20(Harry%20Carey).jpg
"It's a simple question...would you eat the moon if it were made of spare ribs!"

[junkboy]

I'm not sure what to make of McFarlane returning.

I have always liked him, but as i said i am not very happy that he is returning back to Spawn at the moment. Or i am maybe happy but not very excited. Weird... Current story act was so great that , i got used its style. Surely things will change with the new team.

[dogmeatsausage]

those look spectacular! cant wait to see your version of hun!
thanks! well one of the links in my signature has something you may want to check out then...

[Lil G]

According to the Mirage-approved RPG sourcebooks Palladium put out in the 80s...

(these are the actual heights, not just ballparking or pulling out of my ass here)

Raphael should be 4'6"

Leonardo should be 4'9"

Donatello should be 5'

Michelangelo should be 4'8"

And you, sir, do fantastic work. I wouldn't get too worried about going out of your way to make the Turtles look physically different from one another. Your attention to detail is admirable but this isn't the children's cartoons and isn't for that audience, plus they kinda are supposed to look alike.


wow. im taller than mikey and raph, same height as leo, and getting close to don! and im twelve!:D

[dogmeatsausage]

I had a lot of early image books but quickly lost interest in most of those "rehashed" super-heroes though I'm sure the surviving original image hero books evolved somewhat. Spawn could have been something interesting, I really like works that involve supernatural and horror but my problem with it from what little I've seen of it over the years is two-fold: one the hyper "scratchy" artwork was not my cup of tea and the supernatural elements which I believe became darker then it's original content was very cartoony and over the top. But all that being said I've seen very little of it over the years so that is based on what i remember.
To winds point about people being surprised the book is still going ...you could almost put me in that camp. The sad truth is that's the struggle with comics, it's the same kind of issue with turtle books in a way. My first book was published by Image I went with image on promotions sat with them at comicons and frequented comic stores more then ever to try and do promotions and meet store owners...I never saw an issue of spawn, never heard anyone mention spawn (though to be fair it's sort of a separate part of image then i was dealing with) i never saw it on the shelves either. I wasn't looking for it, but I can't remember the last time Ive seen an issue on the stands. The point I'm trying to make though is that shelf life for any book is so short that unless people are really looking forward it's really easy to constantly miss.

[junkboy]

The main reason that i was shocked at ppl's comments is ofc cause of the fact that i am reading Spawn since first issue and if you read it and enjoy it, you will not be able to see it as a book not very popular. you know, you will talk to fans in other forums, Image forums, etc etc. And my example of Batman is a bit overkill ofc :).
I sometimes cannot succeed to see the world of comics thru the eyes of common or casual reader. I mean ppl not obsessed with comics. Not following forums or websites about comics, etc. Ppl just buying the comics they see standing at their local shop cause of lack of time or such things.
That's completely understandable but what i do not understand is some ppl going as far as saying ... that comic is crap , i have read till issue 25 and then dropped it. that may be the way of saying their dislike for the comic book. I have never been any kind of fanboy in my whole life but in a lot of occasions ppl's reaction ..or how can i say, their way of expressing their thoughts about something they do not like insensitively, has always bugged me.
The same thing is present for TMNT you know. No one says TMNT is crap, but maybe thanks to old cartoon series or wickedly high amount of toy lines, they think TMNT is childish, or refuse to give a chance to the comic or the most obvious : they are not aware of a TMNT comic book at all.

This post started with spawn but turned out to be something about the usual situation of underground comics i guess. But did not want to change the plot of the thread in general Paul. sorry about that and thnks for your telling about your experience with Image guys. I really like when i hear the situation of comics from the ppl that actually work on them...

[dogmeatsausage]

no problem wind, I totally understand what your saying and don't want to completely derail the thread but you bring up some great points. Your point about not understanding the casual comic reader is very interesting and I can understand you but I think I'm on the flip-side I feel like I don't understand the hardcore fans, or just fans who keep up with the major things happening in comics. Though I'm like you I think a lot of people don't understand how great the medium is/can be and how much work goes into it. When my first book "mora" was published through Image whether comments were positive or negative I don't think many people understood it was completely a one man job and it was always kind of strange to hear people talk about it as a product that Image hired someone to do, or marketed to a specific crowd.
I've been a life-long comic fan I generally know about all the major books characters, artists, etc but I've never been a comic reader. As a really broke kid growing up I didn't have the luxury to actually buy books every week so I really started to gravitate to the graphic novels, the specials and annuals when a new or "special" artist would come in to do something different. That was one of the huge appeals to me about the tmnt series. I loved seeing all the different artists takes. So now through the years I've kept up with comics only in terms of artists I like and looking for the rare special book or nice reprint. I have no idea what's happening in the marvel dc image titles. In a weird way I feel kind of shut out from comics. I completely understand at least in one sense why comics don't really expand, if comics have isolated a life-long fan like myself that really wants to have a career in comics I don't see how they could ever bring in average non-comic readers. I hope that doesn't sound too negative and I'm sure a lot of those points could take more clarification but it was just very interesting to hear wind's perspective which I feel I understand even though I'm on the other end of the spectrum.

[junkboy]

Great post...
In fact the thing i say can be about anything in life. Not just comics. The point i want to emphasize is not how ppl are able to catch up with all comics, popular , easy to obtain or otherwise. Most of times ppl seem to judge something they do not fully know with such an easiness that, this makes me believe there are more than just a few flaws in the creation of mankind :)
Also i think if you are a talented person, it is not important how much comic you read or collect or etc. I think the point is getting the maximum from the ones you already have in hand and mixing the positive things you get from them with your own creativity. In your case, pretty well done, cause your style is really great as most forum members here agree on. :)
cheers...

[dogmeatsausage]

Great post...
In fact the thing i say can be about anything in life. Not just comics. The point i want to emphasize is not how ppl are able to catch up with all comics, popular , easy to obtain or otherwise. Most of times ppl seem to judge something they do not fully know with such an easiness that, this makes me believe there are more than just a few flaws in the creation of mankind :)
Also i think if you are a talented person, it is not important how much comic you read or collect or etc. I think the point is getting the maximum from the ones you already have in hand and mixing the positive things you get from them with your own creativity. In your case, pretty well done, cause your style is really great as most forum members here agree on. :)
cheers...
I hear you. For some reason comics and videogames and the like are thought of as either kid stuff or in some very negative light. In some countries I think there's a better understanding that these are indeed art forms. and yes there are a lot of judgemental and dismissive people out there especially on forums.

[shuriken]

Mikey Donnie Leo and Raph.

[dogmeatsausage]

Mikey Donnie Leo and Raph.

you are correct!

[junkboy]

I hear you. For some reason comics and videogames and the like are thought of as either kid stuff or in some very negative light. In some countries I think there's a better understanding that these are indeed art forms. and yes there are a lot of judgemental and dismissive people out there especially on forums.

Indeed, as Elijah says at the awesome movie Unbreakable...
"Do you see any Teletubbies in here? Do you see a slender plastic tag clipped to my shirt with my name printed on it? Do you see a little Asian child with a blank expression on his face sitting outside on a mechanical helicopter that shakes when you put quarters in it? No? Well, that's what you see at a toy store. And you must think you're in a toy store, because you're here shopping for an infant named Jeb. This is an art gallery my friend. and this is a piece of art".

What a pity the country i live in is full of such kind of ppl. I mean i do not care anymore about ppl taking comics not as a piece of art. I got used to that. But what bugs me is their weird look and "uberly sophisticated" comments such as : There is so few text in that thing, it finishes so quickly bah..."
Born in wrong place i guess.

[shuriken]

Indeed, as Elijah says at the awesome movie Unbreakable...
"Do you see any Teletubbies in here? Do you see a slender plastic tag clipped to my shirt with my name printed on it? Do you see a little Asian child with a blank expression on his face sitting outside on a mechanical helicopter that shakes when you put quarters in it? No? Well, that's what you see at a toy store. And you must think you're in a toy store, because you're here shopping for an infant named Jeb. This is an art gallery my friend. and this is a piece of art".

What a pity the country i live in is full of such kind of ppl. I mean i do not care anymore about ppl taking comics not as a piece of art. I got used to that. But what bugs me is their weird look and "uberly sophisticated" comments such as : There is so few text in that thing, it finishes so quickly bah..."
Born in wrong place i guess.
Whoever said that to you is missing the point entierly. It's a damn shame to say the least.

[Masked Ninja]

Ah, I guessed right then. Great job - I'm always a fan of the turtles not being 4 copies of the same guy, wielding different weapons. And I've been really digging the work you've done with 'em thus far, besides.

[cMac44111]

looking at that picture I got to thinking. Would it be anatomically possible for turtles to bend their heads like a human and look down? Or should I just stop thinking too much about this, sit down and have my tea.

[TristanHuwJones]

looking at that picture I got to thinking. Would it be anatomically possible for turtles to bend their heads like a human and look down? Or should I just stop thinking too much about this, sit down and have my tea.

I guess it comes down to whose Turtles you're talking about. Turtles in general probably could, with certain species being exceptions. If you're talking about these turtles I think it would come down to the artists. The squat Carlson turtles might look a little odd, same with Farley's (my collection isn't onhand, so I can't check it). Think these ones could, as would Jim Lawson's, Peter's, Kevin's.... any with humanoid neck I guess. Could also come down to how the shell is drawn...

[Andrew NDB]

Yo Dogmeat!

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That is with full length katanas. It would be super fluid if the katanas were a little shorter (a demo with two wakizashis would be much easier to execute). Nowhere does it ever look like Leonardo really has full-length katanas, at any rate. His are somewhere in length between a katana and a wakizashi, and are probably custom made anyway.

[dogmeatsausage]

hey Andrew,
thanks so much for going through the trouble of doing that video! very cool to see and that wasn't exactly how i was imagining it so it's really cool to see the actual thing. thanks man

[Rooish]

Woah. Nice vid. I didn't even think it was possible to pull a katana off your back (but then my arms are very short. But then again, Leonardo's arms also should be very short, based on his height).