Sympathatic portrayals?

[Sage Ninja]

there are several diffrent version of the turtles, and I think what makes the turtles so popular with fans is how you can relate to them and how their personalites draw you into their characters and you feel real emotions for them, because they inspire sympathy. Sympathatic characters seem to really popular among fan groups, and I was wondering do you think some versions of the same character are more relatable and sympathatic than other versions?

Like I notice alot of people seem to feel that OT leonardo isn't very sympathatic character to alot of people because they feel he is more bossy and a teacher's pet than NT Leo. Do fans think NT Leo is a more sympathatic version than OT Leonardo? Is it because he plays the protective older brother more than his OT counter-part?

How about OT Donatello and new toon Don. OT Don seems to inspire alot of emotion from fans because of all the things he's gone through and keeps it to him self and how quite and complex he is, as opposed to say OT Don who is more cynical and millitant than NT Don but has the added sympathy factor of possibly being the most emotionaly restricted of the other turtles.

Same with OT Raphael and Nt Raphael, would you say NT Raphael's anger and angst makes him more of a sympathatic character than his OT counter part who was more of wise cracking yet easy going character?

Or OT Michaelangelo and NT Mike, they are both fun loving characters and probably don't have angst to make them sympathatic characters but does any one feel that one version of Michaelangelo makes him more relatable and sympathic than the other due to how their emotions are shown or how they deal with tough situations?

[Cipher]

You want to get right down to it, the Mirage comics versions present the most sympathetic Turtles. It's not because I'm some raging comic purist either. It's because they're not characatures of themselves.

For example, Mirage Mike is a jokester, but he's also incredibly creative and never has a problem dealing with the task at hand. He has layers. By comparison, old toon Mike is a stoner characature and new toon Mike is made of one-liners and ineptitude.

Mirage Don is smart, but not a super-human genius, and is capable of getting down to business and cracking jokes with the guys. Old toon Don is at least a little pushy, but still has the smart guy archetype holding him back, and new toon Don, I can't stand. He's got the nerd stereotype all over him and in a semi-realistic cartoon, he's somehow making flying cars out of sewer junk.

Ditto for Leo and Raph. They're presented in the comics with layers they just don't have in either cartoon. But, for a break down of how relatable I see various versions of the Turtles, it'd go something like this:

Leo: Mirage > New Toon > Old Toon

Raph: Mirage > New Toon > Old Toon

Mike: Mirage > Old Toon > Every other version of Mike ever > New Toon

Don: Mirage > Old Toon > New Toon

Or OT Michaelangelo and NT Mike, they are both fun loving characters and probably don't have angst to make them sympathatic characters but does any one feel that one version of Michaelangelo makes him more relatable and sympathic than the other due to how their emotions are shown or how they deal with tough situations? Mike is probably the most sympathetic character in Mirage. He writes, he's the only Turtle to consistantly express a desire to live among humans, and when sh*t goes down, he takes it really hard.

[Scandia]

I think Donatello got the most sympathetic portrayals in the most universes.

And they did Raphael a favor by focusing on certain personality aspects in the OT and Archie. They did not get rid of his essence- they just made him more agreeable.

Mikey is being shown as way too immature in more than one universe.

And I like Leo everywhere.

[Jester]

I've always been a Raphael fan, but for the most out of character portrayal of the bunch, Rob Paulsen's in the OT, but this sarcastic wise guy is the version of Raphie I relate to most, because I am a sarcastic wise guy. I've grown up to be Rob Paulsen's Raphael. So the one Turtle I can sympathize with most, is OT Raph.

[Sage Ninja]

hmm, what about Splinter in the OT where he is a human but gets thrown out of his clan sent to New York and get mutated into a mujatant rat preventing him from even living like a human any more. As oppose to all other version of Splinter who lost his master to Shredder but but gained intelligence with his mutation as well as four sons.

Or Baxter Stockman, in the OT he was a poor scienctist who did everything for his Master but was betrayed by him and turned into a fly and constantly lied and manipulated by every one around him. And NT Baxter who started off as just evil ewas revealed to have had a good up bringing and just lost his way some where along the the line.

[Cipher]

hmm, what about Splinter in the OT where he is a human but gets thrown out of his clan sent to New York and get mutated into a mujatant rat preventing him from even living like a human any more. As oppose to all other version of Splinter who lost his master to Shredder but but gained intelligence with his mutation as well as four sons.

Or Baxter Stockman, in the OT he was a poor scienctist who did everything for his Master but was betrayed by him and turned into a fly and constantly lied and manipulated by every one around him. And NT Baxter who started off as just evil ewas revealed to have had a good up bringing and just lost his way some where along the the line.Old toon Splinter and Baxter really have the victim angle going. I'd say both are much more sympathetic because of it.

Splinter, like you said, loses his option to live among humans (and loses the whole vengeance aspect from the comics). Of all the Baxter incarnations, the old toon had the most pathos as well. While the Mirage and new toon versions are completely lucid about their evil deeds, this Baxter was coersed into working with Shredder at first, and becomes increasingly insane everytime he appears as a fly.

[Rooish]

I definitely agree that we people on the Drome are drawn to the TMNT because they are sympathetic characters.

Don - I don't think he was very sympathetic in the OT--he was actually kind of creepy at times. But at any rate, he was usually obliviously happy in his little world of inventions and technology, so there wasn't much to "feel" for. Don in most other mediums is a whole other story, though. He's never angsty, and I know people sympathize with angsty characters, but he is introspective and peaceful, especially in Mirage. And in the NT he's a bit sweetie, obviously. He feels everything really strongly and takes a lot of responsibility upon himself. I think he's written as the most sympathetic character in the NT. As far as the comics, he just has such a warm and thoughtful nature, it’s hard to find any fault with him.
So NT Don > Mirage Don > Movie Don > OT Don

Raph - Now, I know that Raph is probably the most popular Turtle among Mirage fans. But I never found him especially sympathetic. His role in "The River," the three-parter that every Mirage fan seems obsessed with, was sort of the exception--but I didn't even think that character acted much like Raph did throughout the rest of Mirage, so it doesn't count. But yeah, when Raph is mad, in Mirage and the new movie, he's kind of a bully. And when he's vicious or angsty, I don't usually sympathize with that. I roll my eyes and wonder what the hell his problem is. But I understand why people would sympathize with his anti-authoritarian beliefs (Leo can be bossy). And a lot of the time in Mirage he's pretty funny. Like he's just kind of wild and uncontrollable and when he's not taking himself too seriously, it comes across as fun. So I like him then. I actually think he's really quite different in the NT than he is in other versions. He's far more level-headed and responsible. In fact it was only really in Season 1 that he seemed out-of-control at all. So I think he's really sympathetic in the NT, or at least really well-developed. And in the OT he was funny, and I guess I sympathise with his fourth-wall comments about how ridiculous the situation is. But he was kind of a jerk to people and made jokes at their expense, so my sympathy only went so far.
So NT Raph > Old Movie Raph/Mirage Raph > OT Raph > 2007 Movie Raph

Leo - I think he is most sympathetic in the first and second movies, the new Mirage comics, and especially the NT, where he totally lacks arrogance. He just seems like a nice, smart, level-headed, hardworking guy. He's both insanely driven and insanely caring. He's always feeling remorse for everything. He seems emotionally stable in a manner that I admire. He just might be my favourite Turtle in the NT. In the OT he wasn't bad--a little bit of a goody-two-shoes but at least his heart was in the right place. I wish he'd had a bit of a more dynamic role, but then it was the OT so the standards for character development weren't that high. In the Mirage comics and the new movie he's a bit of an arrogant, cocky bastard, but I kind of like that in a way, even so. Especially whenever Raph kicks his butt (which happens both in Mirage and the new movie), I find myself rooting for Leo. But man can he be self-righteous.
So NT Leo/New Mirage Leo > Old Movie Leo > OT Raph > 2007 Leo /Old Mirage Leo

Mike - I think he’s really sympathetic for different reasons in both Mirage and the OT. Mostly because he just seems like a nice guy. In Mirage I find him sympathetic because he’s sort of enigmatic and in the background, but then these little things get revealed: he’s Raph’s best friend and the one who gets through to Raph; he’s sort of excitable and hard to control (like Raph), but in a completely happy way; he adopts a cat; he gets super attached to a kid; he cooks; he writes; he never has a mean thing to say to anyone. And in the OT he seems to be all heart, even though he’s a bit spacey and gluttonous. But he just struck me as really emotional and I sympathize with that. I always liked him in the movies; he was comic relief, but in a warm-hearted way. In the NT he obviously is not very sympathetic, especially in the first, sixth and (so far) seventh seasons.
Mirage/OT Mike > Movie Mike > NT Mike

Jeez, I guess I like the NT versions. Well actually this is not the order I like them in; it’s just how much I find them sympathetic. Does that make sense?

The only real sympathetic version of Splinter is in the old movies and Mirage, I find. As much as he annoys me in the NT, though, I admit he’s slightly more sympathetic than in the OT.

I don’t ever find Shredder sympathetic. But Baxter is sympathetic in both the OT and NT. I guess especially the NT, just because he, like most everyone else, is more developed in the NT.

[NameGoesHere1066]

for Raphael I think the first live action version of Raphael was the most relatable and sympathatic. It was the way he acted, in a way he sort of remind me of the Beast in "Beauty and the Beast" a monsterous angry creature but with so much pain and emotion your heart goes out him because he is very human but he is trapped inside him self because of what he is and feels he's alone even when he's surrounded by those like him. I guess the second would be Mirage Raphael but at times I felt his attitude got tiresome as a reader and I got annoyed on occassion by his constant angst. I think the third would be NT Raphael but i don't find him sympathatic so much as he's relatable; (or is that the same thing?) I'm a cynic by nature and things and people aggravate me and I react the very same way, amnd I'm the sort of person who when angry I say or do things which is what NT Raph does an awful lot, so I can relate. Then It would be CGI Raph and then OT Raph. I don't find OT Raph sympathatic but I think he's easily the most likable Raph out there.

The only real sympathetic version of Splinter is in the old movies and Mirage, I find. As much as he annoys me in the NT, though, I admit he’s slightly more sympathetic than in the OT.

:o :o Just how the heck does NT Splinter annoy you? Please explain this to me. :-?

I think of all the Splinter's it's a toss up between Mirage Splinter and NT Splinter. NT Splinter actually seemed to look to Yoshi as a father figure, so he has that who orphane angle going for him. ANd you can see how much he cherished Yoshi. OT Splinter, true he has that whole victim thing going but is it me or did appear like OT Splinter didn't mind so much that he could never be human again? There wasn;'t a whole lot of grief on his part over the whole thing, he seemed kind of "well I'm a giant rat now that can;t go out in public any more...I guess I'll go meditate" :ohwell: At least in the archie comics and even the anime version of the OT Splinter showed some bitterness and anger over being framed and thrown out of the foot and then mutated into a Rat.

[Jelly Bean]

I think NT Splinter is the most sympathatic Splinter that I've seen. He's relatable because he really cares for his sons but he's also exsperated by them too. He's comes off really fatherly. I can't really comment on 80's Splinter because I don't think they really show very much of him to get to really feel for him. CGI Splinter seemed too old for me the really feel sympathy for him.

Two questions? Who do you feel more sympathy for 80's April or 4KIDS April? Also

comparatively?

do people really feel that 80's Michaelangelo is more sympathatic and relatable than his modern dayversion, NT Mikey? From what I've seen NT Mikey doesn't really inspire feelings of sympathy with fans.

[Coola Yagami]

I guess they had to keep status quo... they couldn't have Splinter always brooding over his lost humanhood in every episode of an upbeat children's show.. and since the plot was more 'we gotta stop Shredder from so much as jaywalking' rather than 'we gotta turn splinter back to normal'.... it became a moot point...

Splinter did feel somewhat fatherly in the older show, but yeah, they missed out on the whole family angle and treated each other more like friends and sensei and students.

[Masked Ninja]

Mike is probably the most sympathetic character in Mirage. He writes, he's the only Turtle to consistantly express a desire to live among humans, and when sh*t goes down, he takes it really hard.
And even though it wasn't Mirage, one of the most poignant Mike moments I've seen takes place in the Image comics when the guys think Donatello is dead and bury his shell under some rocks. Raph and Leo leave, but Mike stays behind to mourn his brother a little longer. Written out it doesn't sound that moving, but in-panel, when two out of three panels are empty and the only line is Mike's "In a minute, Leo" (or whatever his actual line is) before he puts his head in his hands... it's surprisingly emotional stuff coming out of the Turtles, and I loved it.

[NameGoesHere1066]

Two questions? Who do you feel more sympathy for 80's April or 4KIDS April? Also

comparatively?

do people really feel that 80's Michaelangelo is more sympathatic and relatable than his modern day version, NT Mikey? From what I've seen NT Mikey doesn't really inspire feelings of sympathy with fans.

as much as I like OT April I have to say that NT April is more sympathatic and relatable. Most of OT April's concern is to get a juicy new story at all costs. And though I can relate to a demanding boss breathing down my neck NT April seems to have the whole lost uncle and family back ground to make her sympathatic as well as boyfriend issues.

and between NT and OT Michaelangelo, I actually find OT Michaelangelo to be more sympathatic than NT Michaelangelo believe it or not.

I really need to ask this though. How come every one is so harsh on CGI Splinter? I think the fact that he has to be extra strict on the turtles makes him more believable not only as parent in his predicment, but as a clan leader to the turtles.

[Cipher]

And even though it wasn't Mirage, one of the most poignant Mike moments I've seen takes place in the Image comics when the guys think Donatello is dead and bury his shell under some rocks. Raph and Leo leave, but Mike stays behind to mourn his brother a little longer. Written out it doesn't sound that moving, but in-panel, when two out of three panels are empty and the only line is Mike's "In a minute, Leo" (or whatever his actual line is) before he puts his head in his hands... it's surprisingly emotional stuff coming out of the Turtles, and I loved it.I was actually thinking about that moment when I said that. Mirage Turtles and Image Turtles are basically the same characters anyway.

[Masked Ninja]

I have Image #1-(I think)5 collected in book format, and I've read a whole lot less Mirage than I'd like, so I decided to play it safe when comparing 'em. I've loved the writing in both so far.

Man, just thinking about it makes me pine for an incarnation of TMNT that does Mike complete justice. Poor guy deserves it.

[Rooish]

I have about 10 issues of Image, and I ca say that that version of Mike was very sympathetic. I, too, love that issue of Image that Masked Ninja mentioned. Although it was odd how callously Leo and Raph took the whole thing (Leo did cry a bit, but Raph was just like, "Ew, the scavengers have picked his bones clean! Let's kill someone for this!" Although i guess that, up until 2k3 and some new Tales issues, Raph and Don weren't that close (except in Archie?).

This is why I would say that Mirage and Image Archie were not the same characters. In Image they were all more independent and kind of bickery.

I, too, would love a comic that does Mike justice. To Peter Laird's and Jim Lawson's credit, they have been trying to give Mike screen time in the new comics. He's still kind of ditzy/flaky, though. But maybe that's just ... how he is.

[Masked Ninja]

I suppose that has to do with coping mechanisms too... Mike wears his heart on his sleeve, but Leo probably stifles outward emotional expression as well as he can (self-control or whatever... I do this too most of the time) and Raph chooses to channel his grief into rage and revenge. It definitely looked a little callous, but I thought it was in-character well enough... as well as providing a nice contrast to Mike and his more emotional nature. :)

[Jelly Bean]

you guys almost make it sound like comic Mike is emotional like a girl. O.o

[Rooish]

Oh yeah, he cries when his cat dies, when his brother dies ... he's totally feminine. :roll:

[Masked Ninja]

Because boys aren't allowed to cry. Ever.

Not even when family dies. Not EVER.

My brother reminds me a lot of Mike, and while he's not macho, he certainly ain't feminine in the least.

[Jelly Bean]

I didn't mean it like he's man bitch or something. I just ment that the way you guys where making it out like he cries all the time at the drop of a hat. :ohwell:

any way I have to say this even though I might get ripped to shredds for it but...I don't really find Raphal's character over all all that sympathatic. Sure he has moments of "aww, he has such pain and depth, what a strong character" but alot of the time I find him sort of a bullying or arrogant character. His reactions sometimes aggravate me, if any one disagrees with him or they don't want to do what he wants to do he throws a fit and stalks off (I'm talking in general not any specific medium here). I just find alot of his behavior and actions to be too self indulging to be sympathatic.

[NameGoesHere1066]

God, are you kidding me!? What is up with all the Raphael hate lately? In what way does Raphael come across as a bully or a selfish dick? Because what I've seen thrown around lately about him. Oh boo hoo, he slammed Mikey's face in his birthday cake, he's such an asshole! Didn't any one think that maybe Mikey deserved it, like Mikey normally does when he gets slapped or beat up or put in place by one of his brothers?

Oh noez! He almost killed Mikey with pipe after Mikey won a sparring match with him and rubbed it in his face! Oh no Raphael just stormed out of the lair because every one wants to follow Leo blindly and not listen to what he has to say! Oh no Raphael resents Leo's position because Splinter favors him over Raphael. Oh good grief Raphael calls his brothers or some one else a coward because they would rather avoid an issue than face it head on. What a complete dick head Raphael is, how dare he speak the truth about people!

Seriously I think people who make these comments about Raphael are just jealous because he's more human and sympathatic than their favorite turtle. Raphael storms off and gets angry because he is in pain people! The other turtles don't have the same baggage as he does. Raphael has to live with the fact he can't go up to the surface and be among people and be resented for what he is. How can any one say that he's a not sympathatic, or worse a bully about things?

[Sage Ninja]

Can I ask how exactly not being able to go up to the surface and being resented and not being able to be among people is only Raphael's problem? Last I checked Don, Mike, and leo have to deal with the same damn thing as Raphael does, so I don't get why that some how give Raph so much emotinal baggage than the other guys.

I don't dislike Raphael but I can say that some of his reactions and how he handles things can being genuianly annoying and bothersome to the viewer/reader. So it's not because people who comment on how they don't like it are jealous of Raphael is supposedly more popular than their favorite turtle. That's a a pretty arrogant assumption to make. And yes some times Raphael does act like a bully for no reason on occassion. You can't fault people for not liking that.

[Coola Yagami]

I do agree a bit on Raph being a bully. Yes, Raph is the pissy angsty one. And yes, all 4 of them face the same problems, it's just... Leo and Don shove it aside by immersing themselves with their ninjitsu or techology, Mikey is so carefree he just doesn't care, and Raph bitches about it. In a way, Raph gives off the most realistic reaction, but we also can't have all 4 turtles being emo and pissy.

I know Mikey is just damned annoying in the 2K3 version.. but sometimes Raph just picks on him for the hell of it.. and I hate that. Yeah, sometimes Mikey starts it too, I just don't like how Raph does it more. This was worse in the old toon cause Raph would ALWAYS rag on Mike and Mike would never make some kind of insult about Raph. Plus, it always looks like Mikey is the wimpy guy that for some reason can't help but pester the much bigger stronger jock. Mike would do something to provoke Raph, and then when Raph would smack him, he would do nothing about it. It would be nice to see Mikey put Raph in his place once in a while.

[Sage Ninja]

Leo and Don shove it aside by immersing themselves with their ninjitsu or techology, Mikey is so carefree he just doesn't care, and Raph bitches about it. In a way, Raph gives off the most realistic reaction, but we also can't have all 4 turtles being emo and pissy.

I'm sorry but I don't think becoming violently pissy and impossiable to be around is a very relatable reaction to have because you feel angry and frustrated with your life. At least not with out consequences. I've had a pretty violent temper for most of my life do to the frustrations of how things are in my life when I was growing up, but I never got away with lashing out and storming out when it could cause trouble for others or my self. I guess that's why I feel Raph's freedom to lash out with out getting chewed out (most of time) is unrealistic because I seriously doubt if some one realistically went as far as Raphael can when pissed off that, they would just be told to take a walk.

[Rooish]

I'm sorry but I don't think becoming violently pissy and impossiable to be around is a very relatable reaction to have because you feel angry and frustrated with your life. At least not with out consequences. I've had a pretty violent temper for most of my life do to the frustrations of how things are in my life when I was growing up, but I never got away with lashing out and storming out when it could cause trouble for others or my self. I guess that's why I feel Raph's freedom to lash out with out getting chewed out (most of time) is unrealistic because I seriously doubt if some one realistically went as far as Raphael can when pissed off that, they would just be told to take a walk.

Agreed. I was going to actually respond at length to above angry Raph defender comment, but decided it's so laughably faulty in logic that it's not worth it.

So the only point I will mention is: why the hell would I be jealous of Raph being more "human and sympathetic" if, by the very nature of him not being my favourite Turtle, I don't find him the most "human and sympathetic"? Is it so hard for people to believe that not all people relate to Raph best? In part because I sometimes do think he's a jerk, and if I were to act like he sometimes does, I'd be disgusted with myself and want to change that behaviour?

[Jelly Bean]

why the hell would I be jealous of Raph being more "human and sympathetic" if, by the very nature of him not being my favourite Turtle, I don't find him the most "human and sympathetic"

well I notice that some Mikey fans sometimes complain that there favorite turtles isn't handled right and that he doesn't measure up to how they think he should be portrayed. :-?