Class Surprises Lesbian Teacher on Wedding Day

[Leogeddon]

A group of San Francisco first-graders took an unusual field trip to City Hall on Friday to toss rose petals on their just-married lesbian teacher - putting the public school children at the center of a fierce election battle over the fate of same-sex marriage.

The 18 Creative Arts Charter School students took a Muni bus and walked a block at noon to toss rose petals and blow bubbles on their just-married teacher Erin Carder and her wife Kerri McCoy, giggling and squealing as they mobbed their teacher with hugs.

Mayor Gavin Newsom, a friend of a friend, officiated.

A parent came up with the idea for the field trip - a surprise for the teacher on her wedding day.

"She's such a dedicated teacher," said the school's interim director Liz Jaroslow.

But there was a question of justifying the field trip academically. Jaroflow decided she could.

"It really is what we call a teachable moment," Jaroflow said, noting the historic significance of same-sex marriage and related civil rights issues. "I think I'm well within the parameters."

Nonetheless, the excursion offers Proposition 8 proponents fresh ammunition for their efforts to outlaw gay marriage in California, offering a real-life incident that echoes their recent television and radio ads.

"It's just utterly unreasonable that a public school field trip would be to a same-sex wedding," said Chip White, press secretary for the Yes on 8 campaign. "This is overt indoctrination of children who are too young to have an understanding of its purpose."

The trip illustrates the message promoted by the campaign in recent days, namely that unless Prop. 8 passes on Nov. 4, children will learn about same-sex marriage in school.

"It shows that not only can it happen, but it has already happened," White said.

California Education Code permits school districts to offer comprehensive sex education, but if they do, they have to "teach respect for marriage and committed relationships."

Parents can excuse their child from all or part of the instruction.

On Friday, McCoy and Carder, both in white, held hands on Newsom's office balcony overlooking the rotunda and recited their vows.

"With this ring, I thee wed!" Carder said, shouting the last word for emphasis.

After traditional photos, the two walked out City Hall's main doors where the students were lined up down the steps with bags of pink rose petals and bottles of bubbles hanging from their necks. McCoy, a conferences services coordinator, was in on the surprise and beamed as the children swarmed around Carder.

The two said they have participated in the campaign against Proposition 8 and planned to travel around San Francisco on Friday afternoon in a motorized trolley car with "Just Married" and "Vote No on 8" banners.

The two met on a dance floor two years ago.

"This is one girl I can honestly say deserves happiness, and it came in the form of Kerri," said Carder's friend Dani Starelli.

Creative Arts administrators and parents acknowledged that the field trip might be controversial, but they didn't see the big deal. Same-sex marriage is legal, they noted.

"How many days in school are they going to remember?" asked parent Marc Lipsett. "This is a day they'll definitely remember."

Carder's students said they were happy to see their new teacher married.

"She's a really nice teacher. She's the best," said 6-year-old Chava Novogrodsky-Godt, wearing a "No on 8" button on her shirt. "I want her to have a good wedding."

Chava's mothers said they are getting married in two weeks.

The students' parents are planning to make a video with the children describing what marriage is to them.

Marriage, 6-year-old Nolan Alexander said Friday, is "people falling in love."

It means, he added, "You stay with someone the rest of your life."

As is the case with all field trips, parents had to give their permission and could choose to opt out of the trip. Two families did. Those children spent the duration of the 90-minute field trip back at school with another first-grade class, the interim director said.

"As far as I'm concerned, it's not controversial for me," Jaroflow said. "It's certainly an issue I would be willing to put my job on the line for."

Here's that darn source you're wanting: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/10/11/MNFG13F1VG.DTL&type=politics&tsp=1


If I was one of those students' parents.. I probably would've been pissed, lol

[ToTheNines]

Wtf? I haven't been on a field trip in 5 years and these little shats get to go to a wedding? Eff San Fran.

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Heh. That's...kind of cool. I think. :shrug:

[Archon_Turtle]

I'm all about teaching tollerance of all things. So good for them!

[KROW]

I would've preferred a trek to a museum but I guess this is also a mind-broadening experience.

[PAAATE]

"This is overt indoctrination of children who are too young to have an understanding of its purpose."

I think the guy saying that is the one who doesn't have an understanding... What does love got to do with politics?

The trip illustrates the message promoted by the campaign in recent days, namely that unless Prop. 8 passes on Nov. 4, children will learn about same-sex marriage in school.

Oh, the horror!!

It means, he added, "You stay with someone the rest of your life."

*don't let the cynic out, don't let the cynic out*

Well, anyway, I see this as a good thing.. Tolerant people are important in a society where hate takes a greater role every day.

[Spitfire]

If she wasn't a lesbian no one care about this. Living in San Fran and being surrounded by this daily makes stuff like this hardly phase me. I'm honestly sick of hearing about it. Being gay has become a cliche now. They used to have token minorities now it's token gays.

I have a very close friend whose gay and if people aren't making comments about how she's gay she has to hear about how she's Irish. It's an everyday thing for her and she gets sick of it. People need to realize it's annoying to point out the obvious.

[Mecha Cow]

I really hate playing the European superiority card, but the fact that same sex marriage is still even an issue in the US is unbelievably backwards. While I don't approve of dragging children into politics, it's good to see them being taught some tolerance in this way. If the teacher wanted them there I see no reason why they shouldn't be; 'understanding' my ass.

[poiuytre]

I don't understand the controversy.
If she wasn't a lesbian no one care about this. Living in San Fran and being surrounded by this daily makes stuff like this hardly phase me. I'm honestly sick of hearing about it. Being gay has become a cliche now. They used to have token minorities now it's token gays.

I have a very close friend whose gay and if people aren't making comments about how she's gay she has to hear about how she's Irish. It's an everyday thing for her and she gets sick of it. People need to realize it's annoying to point out the obvious.
Heh, funny.

[Spitfire]

I really hate playing the European superiority card, but the fact that same sex marriage is still even an issue in the US is unbelievably backwards. While I don't approve of dragging children into politics, it's good to see them being taught some tolerance in this way. If the teacher wanted them there I see no reason why they shouldn't be; 'understanding' my ass.

As frighting as it is there's still people out there who believe kids shouldn't be exposed to it. I mean if your surrounded by it as a kid it won't be a weird concept to you. If they don't learn to accept it now they might never. When their young is the time to do it.

I got in an argument with my roommate about this last night in fact. He thinks it's better to shelter kids from it. If you don't teach them it's wrong then they won't think it is. Let the poor kids figure it out for themselves. If they see it all the time they will soak it in as normal like it should be considered. I still fail to see why people are all up in arms about it. Sometimes I think they just need something to whine about to be happy so they picked this.

[Scandia]

Beautiful!

Congratulations to the teacher and her spouse.

[Jo Dawn]

I would think the kids see more offensive things both in school and in their daily lives. I don't see the controversy in sharing a loving moment. Especially since the parents were given an approval option.

[Buslady]

interesting...a field trip using city transit? That's not usually permitted in Ca districts, policies usually spell out they must use schoolbuses...wonder how they got past that one...

either way, hell good for them!! they love their teacher, don't care what her preferences are, they just want her happy and i think it's good.

Screw the opponents, they're idiots.

[Spitfire]

interesting...a field trip using city transit? That's not usually permitted in Ca districts, policies usually spell out they must use schoolbuses...wonder how they got past that one...

Maybe it's different in high school but we always used public transit for our field trips. We had a class where we had to take a bus to the bowling alley every day and we always took public transit.

[Archon_Turtle]

interesting...a field trip using city transit? That's not usually permitted in Ca districts, policies usually spell out they must use schoolbuses...wonder how they got past that one...

either way, hell good for them!! they love their teacher, don't care what her preferences are, they just want her happy and i think it's good.

Screw the opponents, they're idiots.

lol, I love that you picked out the public transit thing. Always count on you for a unique perspective! <3

[Roseangelo]

Maybe it's different in high school but we always used public transit for our field trips. We had a class where we had to take a bus to the bowling alley every day and we always took public transit.

My High School summer school gym teacher drove us to a bowling alley on a field trip in his own van, which had a laundry list of safety issues, and then he nearly killed us all as he decided that 10 feet in front of a stop sign was a good time to start braking. Ah, the good ol' days. 8)

[Leogeddon]

I really don't have much to speak of about this scenario, it's expected in San Fran, I say for anyone to marry there has to be love in it because divorce isn't really a thing that floats well with me. I understand if they're not ready for marriage as to why they divorce, but if it's something like adultery, then I'm really gonna be ticked off, cheating on another person has no excuse.

It shows no respect to your loved one and shows you weren't thinking about THEM, but instead of straying too far away of subject and ranting...

If they're in love, good for them and they have my blessings.

[Tinuvielsdreams]

I think that was a very sweet gesture. I know how much it means to kids to be involved in a teachers life. It's someone they look up to and I bet they were so excited to be there.
As for the being gay part...Love is hard enough to find, why put any boundaries on who it can be with.
My best friend is marrying his boyfriend next fall and I am in the wedding party. I am very happy I live in a city where people feel free and comfortable with who they are. I feel priviledged I get to be a part of that too

[Drtooth]

I really hate playing the European superiority card, but the fact that same sex marriage is still even an issue in the US is unbelievably backwards.

It's mostly a religious thing, and I don't want to go into it. I can respect (but disagree completely) with someone who says, "I support gays, but in a religious standpoint, I don't agree with the marriage thing"... but quite a bunch of the opponents are the "I hate gays because they scare me, and various false prophets say it's bad, and they're evil.... blah blah blah.."

Sometimes I just think it's a stumbling block because the government doesn't want any benefits to go to anyone who isn't a rich and a party doner.... All I'm going to say...

[Mecha Cow]

I know it's a religious thing; my point is that religion should have nothing to do with politics... in fact I recall there being a law stating this.

[Rooish]

Well, if there is a law like that in America, nobody cares; Americans are less likely to vote for an atheist or a homosexual for president than any other group that was mentioned in this survey:

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/black_president_more_likely_than_mormon_or_atheist _/

[PAAATE]

in fact I recall there being a law stating this.

Well, I think there is a law in most secularized countries, but you can't really call the US a fully secularized country :P

[Sewer Bull]

I really hate playing the European superiority card, but the fact that same sex marriage is still even an issue in the US is unbelievably backwards.

1) Same sex marriages are not legal everywhere in Europe.

2) Even in the countries where they are allowed, same sex marriages tend to be an issue among the more conservative crowd.

3) The US has California and I think several more states, where same sex marriages are/might be soon allowed.

To sum up - your "European superiority card" doesn't really make much sense, to be honest.

[PAAATE]

To sum up - your "European superiority card" doesn't really make much sense, to be honest.

There's also the matter of several European countries, Sweden included, where right-wing extremist parties are growing dangerously popular... :|

Here in Sweden we have Sverigedemokraterna (The Sweden Democrats) and their main goal is reducing taxes by throwing out 90% of immigrants since immigrants are;

1. useless and gets too much tax-money
2. a danger to the Swedish culture and to our patriotism

Yeah, right... And of course SD also have the not so tolerant view on homosexuality...

The only thing I really can agree with them on is that Swedish immigration-policies are ****ed up... But that's as far as our agreement goes.. I wanna spend even more money on the immigrants to really try and incorporate them into our society.. Right now, we're basically accepting anyone that wants to move here, and they get financial help, but some Swedish-lessons would probably improve a hell of a lot of things, if you ask me... Which you don't... Also, I'm tired and writing too much... Good bye... :sleep:

[Mecha Cow]

I don't give a damn about being 'superior'; my point was that I didn't want to come off as the stereotypical European who likes to criticize everything about the US.

[Buslady]

Maybe it's different in high school but we always used public transit for our field trips. We had a class where we had to take a bus to the bowling alley every day and we always took public transit.

Some states are different but who knows... :P i wouldn't be surprised if they simply couldn't afford a schoolbus.

lol, I love that you picked out the public transit thing. Always count on you for a unique perspective! <3


Hey no problem Arch! Always happy to please hehehe :D

My High School summer school gym teacher drove us to a bowling alley on a field trip in his own van, which had a laundry list of safety issues, and then he nearly killed us all as he decided that 10 feet in front of a stop sign was a good time to start braking. Ah, the good ol' days.


Hmmm definitely illegal. Least you guys didnt get in an accident.

The reason I'm wondering cos when you take something other than a schoolbus, the liability. If something happened to the kiddies in the transit bus, the teachers, school, principal, district, would be ruined. There's a bigger chance of kids being hurt around a transit bus cos they're not trained the same way we are, they don't have all the mirrors to look for kids as well. so... :P
Im gonna shut up now!

[Drtooth]

There's also the matter of several European countries, Sweden included, where right-wing extremist parties are growing dangerously popular... :|

Here in Sweden we have Sverigedemokraterna (The Sweden Democrats) and their main goal is reducing taxes by throwing out 90% of immigrants since immigrants are;

1. useless and gets too much tax-money
2. a danger to the Swedish culture and to our patriotism

Yeah, right... And of course SD also have the not so tolerant view on homosexuality...

RIGHT WING DEMOCRATS?!?!?! That's.... that's... Don't they just .... you know... cancell themselves out and cease to exist? Does your Arch Republican party dress in flowers and tie-dye T-shirts and say "Peace is Groovey, man?"

To quote the great Philosopher, Wade Duck... "I'm Scared!"

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

1) Same sex marriages are not legal everywhere in Europe.

2) Even in the countries where they are allowed, same sex marriages tend to be an issue among the more conservative crowd.

3) The US has California and I think several more states, where same sex marriages are/might be soon allowed.

To sum up - your "European superiority card" doesn't really make much sense, to be honest.

You might find this informative:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage

Actually only several European countries allow actual same sex marriages, according to that article.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I really hate playing the European superiority card, but the fact that same sex marriage is still even an issue in the US is unbelievably backwards. While I don't approve of dragging children into politics, it's good to see them being taught some tolerance in this way. If the teacher wanted them there I see no reason why they shouldn't be; 'understanding' my ass.

And why stop with same sex marriage? If we allow that, who not allow a man to marry several women, a practice common in many Asian and African nations (Nelson Mandela currently has two wives)? Why not allow brothers and sisters to marry, or parents and children? Why not allow children to marry (in Iran and undoubtedly many other countries, a girl can get married at age 13, or even as early as age 9 with parental permission)? Why not legally recognize marriage of humans and animals (yes, there are real-life cases of people who marry their pets)?

Hey, if same sex marriage is OK, you might as well accept all the rest of them.

[Cure]

And why stop with same sex marriage? If we allow that, who not allow a man to marry several women, a practice common in many Asian and African nations (Nelson Mandela currently has two wives)? Why not allow brothers and sisters to marry, or parents and children? Why not allow children to marry (in Iran and undoubtedly many other countries, a girl can get married at age 13, or even as early as age 9 with parental permission)? Why not legally recognize marriage of humans and animals (yes, there are real-life cases of people who marry their pets)?

Hey, if same sex marriage is OK, you might as well accept all the rest of them.

Haha, wow. Gay marriage isn't even the same as those things. Hahaha. Thanks for the chuckle, though.

[Rooish]

Yeah, that argument is pretty weak and tired.

Same-sex marriage is, like other marriages, a committed monogamous union. Got nothin' to do with the other stuff you said. And even if it were related, you'd have to explain to a lot of people what's wrong with polyamory.

And yeah, kind of freaked out by Austria lately (as far as European countries), don't they have several neo-Nazi groups that got quite a lot of votes in recent elections?

[GK Punk]

Now my brain hurts. Stupid is painful to read.

[Canadian Turtle]

Hey, if same sex marriage is OK, you might as well accept all the rest of them.

hahahahaha! I love this topic!

This example here is perfect to show the TERROR in the hearts of the North American culture. I just came back from working in Boston for two weeks. I had a chance to have some great political talks with some very smart people. We never spoke of this subject but I am sure he was agianst it. The underlying problem in our cultures is FEAR! But its NOT fear of gays its this stupid fear like this last person was saying "if this changes, everything will change" same goes for public health care. I have now met American's who ACTUALLY don't want it because they are TERRRRRRIFIED of Socialist values because, god forbid!! that might be mean your communist! hahaha

People in general are ignorant, they know little of the rest of the world and they are TERRIFIED of anything different or they don't understand, so if the opiate of the masses suggests something is wrong well lets shut it DOWN!

And yes I agree with the European, the Church and State are getting closer which is sending America into a new dark age and working backwards in a horrific land slide no one is aware of.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

hahahahaha! I love this topic!

This example here is perfect to show the TERROR in the hearts of the North American culture. I just came back from working in Boston for two weeks. I had a chance to have some great political talks with some very smart people. We never spoke of this subject but I am sure he was agianst it. The underlying problem in our cultures is FEAR! But its NOT fear of gays its this stupid fear like this last person was saying "if this changes, everything will change" same goes for public health care. I have now met American's who ACTUALLY don't want it because they are TERRRRRRIFIED of Socialist values because, god forbid!! that might be mean your communist! hahaha

People in general are ignorant, they know little of the rest of the world and they are TERRIFIED of anything different or they don't understand, so if the opiate of the masses suggests something is wrong well lets shut it DOWN!

And yes I agree with the European, the Church and State are getting closer which is sending America into a new dark age and working backwards in a horrific land slide no one is aware of.

If you think that creating same sex marriage won't encourage other groups to push for polygamy etc., you're crazy. Why wouldn't they say, "If gays have the right to marry, then our definition of marriage is our right too"? US law, as far as I know, has always defined marriage as between one man and one woman, with the other examples I have mentioned never being permitted. Why bother redefining marriage in the US when we have nothing to gain and everything to lose by it?

Non-Americans love to think they know us well and that we're ignoramuses, and they hate it when Americans like myself tell them that their preconceived notions about us are complete nonsense. I know this from past experience.

[Mecha Cow]

Non-Americans love to think they know us well and that we're ignoramuses, and they hate it when Americans like myself tell them that their preconceived notions about us are complete nonsense. I know this from past experience.
This is exactly what I wanted to avoid, because unlike you I don't think in terms of 'us' and 'them'. Congratulations, you're a walking stereotype.

I also love how your only argument against gay marriage is based on semantics. Really, good show. Also, stop posting. Thanks.

[Sewer Bull]

Non-Americans love to think they know us well and that we're ignoramuses, and they hate it when Americans like myself tell them that their preconceived notions about us are complete nonsense. I know this from past experience.

... says the guy who claims Nelson Mandela has two wives and suggests gay marriages are a straight way to the legalization of pedophilia and bestiality.

[Drtooth]

And why stop with same sex marriage? If we allow that, who not allow a man to marry several women, a practice common in many Asian and African nations (Nelson Mandela currently has two wives)? Why not allow brothers and sisters to marry, or parents and children? Why not allow children to marry (in Iran and undoubtedly many other countries, a girl can get married at age 13, or even as early as age 9 with parental permission)? Why not legally recognize marriage of humans and animals (yes, there are real-life cases of people who marry their pets)?


Yeah... cuz they're clearly the same thing.

Oh Noes! Marriage isn't sacred. Well, we gotta tell those guys in Vegas that get sh**faced and propose to the nearest prostitute that their marriage isn't sacred. Let's tell all those gold diggin' hos that marry so they can wait for their husbands to die to take all their money that their marriage isn't sacred.

God, I'm agreeing with everyone else. That is a bullcrap argument, with shoddy logic. The slope ain't that slippery.

We have nothing to gain or lose if it's legal or not because, unless you're gay and in a relationship...

IT DOESN'T EFFECT YOU!!!!!!

[Spitfire]

If you think that creating same sex marriage won't encourage other groups to push for polygamy etc., you're crazy. Why wouldn't they say, "If gays have the right to marry, then our definition of marriage is our right too"? US law, as far as I know, has always defined marriage as between one man and one woman, with the other examples I have mentioned never being permitted. Why bother redefining marriage in the US when we have nothing to gain and everything to lose by it?

Non-Americans love to think they know us well and that we're ignoramuses, and they hate it when Americans like myself tell them that their preconceived notions about us are complete nonsense. I know this from past experience.

You bring a whole new meaning to the term "bible humper".

You must have been sheltered as a kid, or raised in the South. You lost the war remember?

And hey just because it's not legal to marry doesn't mean all the red necks will stop inbreeding. Though as we can see that never turns out well.

Do you go to abortion clinics too and tell women what to do with their own bodies or are you one of the guys who stands outside of concerts and tells me I'm going to hell?

Leave your cave, the sun light might be scary but it's a lot more entertaining out here.

[poiuytre]

I've been thinking about what Chi-ha said. While I don't agree with it, I do see a point in part of the reasoning. Polygamy is deemed acceptable in several places in the world, as in a handful of religions. For what reason could we still disallow it when we're about to change the nation definition of marriage anyway? It would simply be a consensual union of legally mature people, right? :tconfuse:

[ThirdMarioBro]

I know it's a religious thing; my point is that religion should have nothing to do with politics... in fact I recall there being a law stating this.

The constitution was based on the separation of Church and State...at least until Richard Nixon woke up one morning and realized that bigotry, hatred, and religious segregation were great ways to assure a solid party base for generations to come. Now we call something like this a "social issue". It's just another way for religious extremists to propagate their hate while preaching love and spreading their power and influence.

Love should know no boundaries.

And why stop with same sex marriage? If we allow that, who not allow a man to marry several women, a practice common in many Asian and African nations (Nelson Mandela currently has two wives)? Why not allow brothers and sisters to marry, or parents and children? Why not allow children to marry (in Iran and undoubtedly many other countries, a girl can get married at age 13, or even as early as age 9 with parental permission)? Why not legally recognize marriage of humans and animals (yes, there are real-life cases of people who marry their pets)?

Hey, if same sex marriage is OK, you might as well accept all the rest of them.

Take a look at the modern-day idiot folks. It's people like you that have ruined this once great country.


And yes I agree with the European, the Church and State are getting closer which is sending America into a new dark age and working backwards in a horrific land slide no one is aware of.

I know the degree varies drastically depending on what region of the country you hail from, but in my region at least, religious bigotry and hatred are everywhere. If a teacher were to try to teach children in my area about acceptance and tolerance of different people with a unique way of life such as this one did, parents would be picketing schools, and their rednecks husbands and sons would probably vandalize the place, or worse. Pastors would be on the conservative local news stations yacking about the corruption of America's youth by sin, the teacher would be forced to vacate her position, and laws would be immediately passed to force to prevent any further teachers from doing something similar.

It truly depresses me to no end to see what is happening to this country. I know people like this have been around forever, but now they've learned to focus their prejudice into a political message. America is rotting from the inside out while it's people wage a culture war over nonsense.

But to being the whole topic back around, what that teacher did brings a smile to my face. Anybody who stands up and tries to spread love and tolerance for other cultures is a hero in my book.

[Sewer Bull]

I've been thinking about what Chi-ha said. While I don't agree with it, I do see a point in part of the reasoning. Polygamy is deemed acceptable in several places in the world, as in a handful of religions. For what reason could we still disallow it when we're about to change the nation definition of marriage anyway? It would simply be a consensual union of legally mature people, right? :tconfuse:

Why to disallow it, actually?

It's better to marry a new wife with keeping an old one rather than kicking the old one out, non? And this is how it functions on the monogamous societies now.


Love should know no boundaries.

... uhm, this is actually what the said scroll says, basically.

All the boundaries came within the following centuries.

[Storm Wolf]

As for the being gay part...Love is hard enough to find, why put any boundaries on who it can be with.
My best friend is marrying his boyfriend next fall and I am in the wedding party. I am very happy I live in a city where people feel free and comfortable with who they are. I feel privileged I get to be a part of that too

Amen to that!

and Congrats to your friend!
You must have been sheltered as a kid, or raised in the South. You lost the war remember?

Ouch....your comment really burns muh biscuits! :( South's not all that bad....is it? :P


I think this was a sweet thing to do! I also think that not sheltering them is a better way to go. What if one of the children ends up being gay? If they recall this they will know that it's ok to be this way....and perhaps in that knowledge they will be more comfortable with who they are.

What could be worse to a young person than being gay but terrified that none of your peers, friends, or even family will accept you?

My parents made sure to tell me that no matter what lifestyle I were to choose that they would always love me and support me. I think that's important for children to know.

[Drtooth]

The constitution was based on the separation of Church and State...at least until Richard Nixon woke up one morning and realized that bigotry, hatred, and religious segregation were great ways to assure a solid party base for generations to come. Now we call something like this a "social issue". It's just another way for religious extremists to propagate their hate while preaching love and spreading their power and influence.

Technically, it wasn't so much Nixon as a certain little false prophet called Jerry Falwell. Remember? The Christian base actually used to go for the Democrats until he came in and brainwashed everyone to vote for a certain over rated politician I won't name.


Take a look at the modern-day idiot folks. It's people like you that have ruined this once great country.


While I don't wanna go the name calling route, I cetrtainly agree there. It;s that kind of thinking that got us 8 years of Bush, instead of the 4 years we could have had. lemme just say, I found it fishy then and still now that Gay Marriage became legal in election years.... 2 of the times in a state with a Republican governer... makes you think, huh?

[Jester]

Wow, I'm glad I kept my view to myself until now. Don't want to be called an inbreed, ignorant, bigot, just because my faith tells me that marriage was created by God for one man and one woman...but then again, if heterosexuals are going to take marriage so lightly, it's impossible for us to stand up against gay marriage. We have made it a farce, we can't call it sacred, when we're willing to do things ourselves that throw that sanctity out the window.

I don't think that gay marriage will lead to things like polygamy and beastiality, I just see it it as a sacred institution, set up by God.

Let the name calling and faith bashing from the "open minded" people begin.

[Storm Wolf]

I don't think that gay marriage will lead to things like polygamy and beastiality, I just see it it as a sacred institution, set up by God.

Let the name calling and faith bashing from the "open minded" people begin.

Not for nothing, but people don't hold marriages in such high regards.....gay or not.

People get married several times, divorced many. In this day and age, I think only very few people feel the way you do about marriage, Jester.

I'm not a religious person myself, but I do think if your going to pledge yourself to someone....make sure it's the right one the first time around.

Most homosexual people didn't ASK to be gay. For many it's not something any of them asked for. Any more than you asked to be a certain gender or to be a certain race.

What I'm saying is....why persecute someone for what they cannot change? They are people and deserve to be as miserable as the rest of the married crew! (ok...ok...bad joke!):roll:

Polygamy is something that can be changed. Bestiality....er...I'm not going to comment on that. I don't think there are THAT many cases of people marrying there pets...right?

[PAAATE]

RIGHT WING DEMOCRATS?!?!?! That's.... that's... Don't they just .... you know... cancell themselves out and cease to exist? Does your Arch Republican party dress in flowers and tie-dye T-shirts and say "Peace is Groovey, man?"

To quote the great Philosopher, Wade Duck... "I'm Scared!"

To answer this in a serious way (yeah, I'm boring)

Except for the "hate everyone that isn't a white male"-part they really aren't that far to the right.. They're extremist but not far to the right... If you understand.

And the political party that's most to the right in our Riksdag (kinda like a parliament, I think) doesn't even come close to the Republicans.

I have now met American's who ACTUALLY don't want it because they are TERRRRRRIFIED of Socialist values because, god forbid!! that might be mean your communist!

Haha, yeah right :P I'm a socialist and like most socialists I understand that communism only works theoretically, not practically.. :P

Oh, also...

Hey, if same sex marriage is OK, you might as well accept all the rest of them.

No...

[Canadian Turtle]

Non-Americans love to think they know us well and that we're ignoramuses, and they hate it when Americans like myself tell them that their preconceived notions about us are complete nonsense. I know this from past experience.


I love this part because we don't "think we know" You are setting your own image up for the rest of the world to see. When a person like mayself is spending a lot of time in a lot of different parts of a country you get a good view of the 'big picture' We see nothing but America on TV, in the news, and we learn your history in our class rooms. Tell me you know something about the rest of the world and I'll listen.

Again I don't bash a person of faith if that is what they feel is right to have faith in, BUT don't knock on my door and tell me my "choices" or views are wrong because guess what it is a free country you can believe what you want and the state is NOT religious (yet) so your 'faiths' definition of mairage is your own, not the country's

And I would agree with the last person there, and shame on anyone who thinks differently. Homosexuality is NOT a choice that is a proven fact. So if you are that worried about your own gods view of another person... well you better grab your pitch fork and lets have a burnin!

Love is love, I am proud to live in a world where people can be free like that! But I am yet to meat a person of faith who practices what they preach.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I love this part because we don't "think we know" You are setting your own image up for the rest of the world to see. When a person like mayself is spending a lot of time in a lot of different parts of a country you get a good view of the 'big picture' We see nothing but America on TV, in the news, and we learn your history in our class rooms. Tell me you know something about the rest of the world and I'll listen.

Again I don't bash a person of faith if that is what they feel is right to have faith in, BUT don't knock on my door and tell me my "choices" or views are wrong because guess what it is a free country you can believe what you want and the state is NOT religious (yet) so your 'faiths' definition of mairage is your own, not the country's

And I would agree with the last person there, and shame on anyone who thinks differently. Homosexuality is NOT a choice that is a proven fact. So if you are that worried about your own gods view of another person... well you better grab your pitch fork and lets have a burnin!

Love is love, I am proud to live in a world where people can be free like that! But I am yet to meat a person of faith who practices what they preach.

I cannot vouch for what you know about America, but I've met non-Americans who had a surprisingly unrealistic view of what the US is like, presumably based on watching TV programs and selected news stories. In fact, I took a mass communications class where the professor told us that the poorer nations of the world are unhappy about the fact that the internation news media only mentions them when there is war or natural disaster or other negative things happening. Does watching "Benny Hill" make you an expert on Britain? :lol:

As far as the definition of marriage, religion has nothing to do with it. It is a matter of the law of the land, as it has always been, at least in the US. We can legally restrict or allow who can marry who any way we like, and that goes for any other nation as well.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

I think this was a sweet thing to do! I also think that not sheltering them is a better way to go. What if one of the children ends up being gay? If they recall this they will know that it's ok to be this way....and perhaps in that knowledge they will be more comfortable with who they are.

What could be worse to a young person than being gay but terrified that none of your peers, friends, or even family will accept you?

My parents made sure to tell me that no matter what lifestyle I were to choose that they would always love me and support me. I think that's important for children to know.

Forget the gay aspect. Any teacher who takes underage children out of a school to go somewhere else without their parents' knowledge or prior consent deserves to be fired. Ever heard of permission slips? I remember those as a child. The teachers involved went well beyond their authority, and do not deserve their office.

I wonder how sweet you would consider it if a teacher took a child with Hindu parents on an unauthorized visit to a slaughterhouse where cows were being killed and cut apart?

[Kunoichi_Haruko]

Forget the gay aspect. Any teacher who takes underage children out of a school to go somewhere else without their parents' knowledge or prior consent deserves to be fired. Ever heard of permission slips? I remember those as a child. The teachers involved went well beyond their authority, and do not deserve their office.

I wonder how sweet you would consider it if a teacher took a child with Hindu parents on an unauthorized visit to a slaughterhouse where cows were being killed and cut apart?



As is the case with all field trips, parents had to give their permission and could choose to opt out of the trip. Two families did. Those children spent the duration of the 90-minute field trip back at school with another first-grade class, the interim director said.

Read the whole thing before you get all in a tizzy...

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

... says the guy who claims Nelson Mandela has two wives and suggests gay marriages are a straight way to the legalization of pedophilia and bestiality.

I looked up Nelson Mandela. A news report I saw about his 90th birthday said he had two wives. However, I looked up Wikipedia, and it said he was married three times, but not with more than one at a time. So I admit I don't know for sure.

One thing I do know, though...the nation that was the first to create gay marriage is also the home of many porn websites, and quite a variety of porn at that, to put it delicately...:o

[Drtooth]

Wow, I'm glad I kept my view to myself until now. Don't want to be called an inbreed, ignorant, bigot, just because my faith tells me that marriage was created by God for one man and one woman...but then again, if heterosexuals are going to take marriage so lightly, it's impossible for us to stand up against gay marriage. We have made it a farce, we can't call it sacred, when we're willing to do things ourselves that throw that sanctity out the window.

I've always said this... Marriage's sacredness was thrown WAAAAAAY out the window long before homosexuals asked for it. Vegas weddings ring a bell? And let's not forget Britney and Liza... both had multiple short marriges that lasted less than a year... one week in one of Brittney's cases. And let's not forget those marriages that are founded by supposedly moral people who are against premarital sex, but not above founding a loveless marriage just to get in the sack. It's like having a high country club that has greens unkept, gets infested by various rodents, and various other things that devalue the property. you might as well let anyone in if they want to, since it's a bloody mess anyway.

But I will say this. I respect views like yours... not the strawmen logic of slippery slopes, or likening homosexuality to pedophilia (since, pedophiles can be straight too).

[Krang]

First of all, enough with the name calling and personal attacks. No matter how strongly you disagree with someone, there is no need to resort to that.

Second, bashing anyone's religion is completely unacceptable. This includes every aspect of the religion, such as religious scripts. In a thread where most people claim to be promoting tolerance, I shouldn't even need to mention this...

The more extreme cases have been cleaned up, but if this continues, this thread will need to be locked. From now on, let's please be more careful and respectful of others.

[ThirdMarioBro]

Wow, I'm glad I kept my view to myself until now. Don't want to be called an inbreed, ignorant, bigot, just because my faith tells me that marriage was created by God for one man and one woman...but then again, if heterosexuals are going to take marriage so lightly, it's impossible for us to stand up against gay marriage. We have made it a farce, we can't call it sacred, when we're willing to do things ourselves that throw that sanctity out the window.

I don't think that gay marriage will lead to things like polygamy and beastiality, I just see it it as a sacred institution, set up by God.

Let the name calling and faith bashing from the "open minded" people begin.

I value you as a friend, and all this political bullsh*t this year has blessed me with high blood pressure and stress levels reserved for someone twice my age, so I'll just drop it. But rest assured, I don't think God and the men who wrote the Bible have any hand in defining who is allowed to love who.

[Jester]

Well there's one thing we can agree on. I'll be glad when this election is over.

[Canadian Turtle]

^We should have an election poll on here for fun to see who TMNT people want in! It would be funny to see what side a TMNT fan leans on.... unless thats a no, no on the thread, I'm not sure.

PS, to clear up! I want to apologize if I hurt any feelings I get very worked up about ignorance and hate. I also defend things like the right to love who and how you want to the death. So I try to be as political and diplomatic as I can when voicing my opinion... but I'll slip up.

Thanks all, lets all keep the fights clean.

[Storm Wolf]

That's right! The best fights are the clean ones!

*puts away brass knuckles*


Hey lets just hope this election is a success and whoever gets elected does right by the people and gets the economy rolling again!

Gay marriage is definitely not our biggest problem in this country.

[Jester]

Indeed. :D

[ThirdMarioBro]

No, it isn't the most important issue, but sooner or later folks are going to have to choose between the Constitution's view of equality of the Bible's view of equality.

I'd really love to see a voting thread.

[Mecha Cow]

my faith tells me that marriage was created by God for one man and one woman...but then again, if heterosexuals are going to take marriage so lightly, it's impossible for us to stand up against gay marriage. We have made it a farce, we can't call it sacred, when we're willing to do things ourselves that throw that sanctity out the window.
Look, while I completely disagree with your view I can at least somewhat respect it, but to say people take marriage lightly because they think homosexuals should be allowed to marry is not fair at all, and makes you no better than the people you're criticizing. If you want people to respect your position, you should also consider that not everyone has the same definition of marriage, be it based on religion or personal beliefs.

This might be walking a slippery slope and I have no intention of getting into an argument about religion, but aside from your faith telling you marriage is something between a man and a woman, would it really bother you or even affect you in any way if two men get married? I mean, whether you personally approve or not is one thing, but as long as they're not hurting anyone, what's it to you? Why should their love be trivialised because of something you believe?

If you don't want to answer then feel free not to, and please understand that I'm honestly not trying to insult you or your religion, but yours is a mindset I truly do not understand.

[Jo Dawn]

I'd love a poll, too... Though we would need severe rules, because I don't think we're mature enough to handle something; seeing as we can barely handle TMNT discussions.

I'd agree to having one, but going off the rules should have immediate repurcussions. We should discuss this. (The poll. Well, both.)

[Anarky]

How about an anonymous voting thread that allows no comments? That way, it's like a real election.

Also, I am president.

As for gay marriage: I'm all for it. Not because I intend to marry a man anytime soon, but because a friend of the family's (The guy my family buys the cigarettes from, and as a kid I always went to fetch them, so he knows me ever since I was a wee lad) gay and... well, here's where the story begins.

His boyfriend of 25 years got ill and had to go to the hospital. He was put into ICU, so he had limited visitors. Only family enough. And that's the stupid law. And because his family lives about 14 hours away, he had no visitors. Natuarlly, the guy wanted to be beside his lover in times of need. But he just couldn't. Laws, you know. And there was no way of making it happen either, since homosexuals couldn't and probably still can't marry here.

And all the guy wanted was to be beside his loved one. And as soon as a law gets inbetween human relationships, it's a bad law. Since laws should be here for us, not we for them.

[Original TMNT Cartoon Fan]

RIGHT WING DEMOCRATS?!?!?! That's.... that's... Don't they just .... you know... cancell themselves out and cease to exist? Does your Arch Republican party dress in flowers and tie-dye T-shirts and say "Peace is Groovey, man?"

To quote the great Philosopher, Wade Duck... "I'm Scared!"

In many countries, there are a lot of parties, left and right, who call themselves something with "Democrats". There are liberal democrats, social democrats and many others. It don't understund why the two major political parties in the USA are called what they are called. The Republican Partys are also supposed to accept democracy and the Democratic Party doesn't work for introducing a monarchy.

[Sewer Bull]

What do we need a voting thread for, anyway?

[Anarky]

To see who would be elected according to the Drome. And I think it would work perfectly fine with a stickied, locked and anonymously polled thread.

[Sewer Bull]

Ah, yeah, presidential elections.

For a while, I thought you wanted a thread to vote for or against gay marriages.

To see who would be elected according to the Drome. And I think it would work perfectly fine with a stickied, locked and anonymously polled thread.

This is how actually all elections work, anyway.

[KROW]

And why stop with same sex marriage? If we allow that, who not allow a man to marry several women, a practice common in many Asian and African nations (Nelson Mandela currently has two wives)?

Don't forget Utah.

Anyway, I'm GLAAD this is happening.

[Jester]

Don't forget Utah.

Anyway, I'm GLAAD this is happening.
Gah, that was a bad pun, even for you. ;)

[Canadian Turtle]

Well as I suggested it, a political poll would be cool but don't know how to set one up like that...

[VaughnMichael]

Gah, that was a bad pun, even for you. ;)
I thought that it was funny, but perhaps it's only funny to homos:P
Biggots don't , hah only kidding jest! You may not like who I love but at least you don't treat me any differntly for doing so.
I honestly don't care about Gay marriage, if I want to love my boyfriend I will regardless of who tells me I can or can't.
But with the things like Anarky said it makes a bit of sense I think though that the rules of Hospitals just need changed.

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

No, it isn't the most important issue, but sooner or later folks are going to have to choose between the Constitution's view of equality of the Bible's view of equality.

I'd really love to see a voting thread.

Um, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible or any religion. Marriage is a matter of law and nothing else. And in junior high school, we had to take a test on the US Constitution to graduate, so I don't have it memorized, but I do know there is no mention of marriage anywhere in that document. The idea that same sex marriage is a matter of "equal rights" doesn't hold water. This "right" only exists if it were passed into law, and except for where such laws have been written, same sex marriage does not exist.

Don't get me wrong, I believe homosexuals have rights, such as the right to vote. Oh, wait, they've always had that.

And as for people who hate homosexuals, I've known three of them in my life, and none of them were right-wing Bible thumpers; in fact quite the opposite. One worked on an oil rig and got harrassed by two gay men; another had the bad experience of being spied on by a gay gym teacher as a schoolboy, and a third got raped as a six-year old child.

[VaughnMichael]

Um, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible or any religion. Marriage is a matter of law and nothing else. And in junior high school, we had to take a test on the US Constitution to graduate, so I don't have it memorized, but I do know there is no mention of marriage anywhere in that document. The idea that same sex marriage is a matter of "equal rights" doesn't hold water. This "right" only exists if it were passed into law, and except for where such laws have been written, same sex marriage does not exist.

Don't get me wrong, I believe homosexuals have rights, such as the right to vote. Oh, wait, they've always had that.

And as for people who hate homosexuals, I've known three of them in my life, and none of them were right-wing Bible thumpers; in fact quite the opposite. One worked on an oil rig and got harrassed by two gay men; another had the bad experience of being spied on by a gay gym teacher as a schoolboy, and a third got raped as a six-year old child.
So just because one Homosexual did one bad thing to a person that makes them all bad, boy way to generalize people.
I was raped as a child by a Black Straight neighbor but I'm not going around hating everyone with brown skin or straight old pedophiles.
Not everyone is the same, this is one case of bad people doing bad things to other things.
My little brother practically gets molested in high school these days by horny girls, it's so funny how our society is turning in a different direction.
You used to have to watch your daughters not you have to watch for your sons from girls tricking them into knocking them up.
Seriously your ignorance is so astounding it's unbelievable.

[Mecha Cow]

The idea that same sex marriage is a matter of "equal rights" doesn't hold water. This "right" only exists if it were passed into law, and except for where such laws have been written, same sex marriage does not exist.
And what's stopping those laws from being written in every state? If the law never changed, black people or women still wouldn't be able to vote.

And as for people who hate homosexuals, I've known three of them in my life, and none of them were right-wing Bible thumpers; in fact quite the opposite. One worked on an oil rig and got harrassed by two gay men; another had the bad experience of being spied on by a gay gym teacher as a schoolboy, and a third got raped as a six-year old child.
This brings back painful memories from when I was molested by a straw man. :(

[Type 97 Chi-ha]

So just because one Homosexual did one bad thing to a person that makes them all bad, boy way to generalize people.
I was raped as a child by a Black Straight neighbor but I'm not going around hating everyone with brown skin or straight old pedophiles.
Not everyone is the same, this is one case of bad people doing bad things to other things.
My little brother practically gets molested in high school these days by horny girls, it's so funny how our society is turning in a different direction.
You used to have to watch your daughters not you have to watch for your sons from girls tricking them into knocking them up.
Seriously your ignorance is so astounding it's unbelievable.

Ignorance? Some people wind up far more traumatized by that sort of thing than you presumably were. Would you criticize a Jew for hating Germans who was a Holocaust survivor?

[VaughnMichael]

Ignorance? Some people wind up far more traumatized by that sort of thing than you presumably were. Would you criticize a Jew for hating Germans who was a Holocaust survivor?
No, because most of them don't focus on that sh1t they moved on with their lives and became a strong people.
You can't live your life blaming others for the past.

[Jester]

But with the things like Anarky said it makes a bit of sense I think though that the rules of Hospitals just need changed.
I agree with that, but then would that extend to dating heterosexuals who's loved one is sick. It's fun trying to find a middle. If you give homosexuals obvious rights, like the right to visit their partner in a hospital, why not just make it an official legal marriage. Maybe there's the way to appease religious nut job bigots like me, make the marriage more a legal contract then a binding religious sacrament, but then again, how many marriages now days aren't anything but...gahh! Beliefs being questioned, but that's a good thing. Shows growth. :D

[Mecha Cow]

why not just make it an official legal marriage. Maybe there's the way to appease religious nut job bigots like me, make the marriage more a legal contract then a binding religious sacrament
Yup, this is the way to go and I'm glad to see you feel this way. How religious something is depends on the people themselves, but legally speaking there shouldn't be a distinction. Of course, then you'll have people complaining about it being called something else, but that's an issue of semantics. First things first.

Would you criticize a Jew for hating Germans who was a Holocaust survivor?
Yes, I would. Germans != Nazis.

[Leogeddon]

Ignorance? Some people wind up far more traumatized by that sort of thing than you presumably were. Would you criticize a Jew for hating Germans who was a Holocaust survivor?

Can I ask you something? Ahhh instead of waiting for the answer, I'll jump the gun with it...

Kinda like how blacks who survived the 200 years of slavery and hates all white people for holding them against their will? Yes... over 200 year-old black people... lol

[The Stryker]

Can't a guy just hate things because he wants to?

[愛]

He can, but he loses all credibility in the process, so it's rather counter-productive.

[Jester]

This seems like the perfect time and context to ask my question about white supremacists:
So the basic tenant of the whole white supremacy movement is that they are better than other people because they are white, and therefore have less melanin than other people. If that is the case, are albinos the true master race? I mean they lack all skin pigmentation. They should be gods to true white supremacists.

[Mecha Cow]

http://thegrandnarrative.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/can_of_worms.jpg

[Jester]

What, can't we all agree those guys are wastes of skin and organs. People who hate people only because of the tone of their skin are idiots. Hate them for who they are on the inside.

[VaughnMichael]

What, can't we all agree those guys are wastes of skin and organs. People who hate people only because of the tone of their skin are idiots. Hate them for who they are on the inside.
Why hate at all, live your own damn life be productive and stop bothering other people who just want to live theirs.
Seriously as if the world isn't hard enough with bullsh1t like this going on all the time.
There are bad people all over the place in every single group of people you come across but there are also going to be good people as well.
It's just the way the world has been since the start of time and will be that way till the end.

[Mecha Cow]

What, can't we all agree those guys are wastes of skin and organs. People who hate people only because of the tone of their skin are idiots. Hate them for who they are on the inside.
Oh, I certainly agree, I'm just wondering if we actually have people like that here and this'll - God forbid - draw them out.

Then again, that way we'll instantly know who to ban. Carry on.

[Jester]

Exactly how I feel. I always say, "There are jerks, spazes and dorks of all elasticities, religions and sexual orientations."

BTW Vaughn, the "Hate them for who they are on the inside." was riddled with sarcasm. I should have tagged it. :P

[VaughnMichael]

BTW Vaughn, the "Hate them for who they are on the inside." was riddled with sarcasm. I should have tagged it. :P
I can't lie I've fallen into hating people for who they are or as I see them from time to time, it's mostly because I see half the world becoming smarter and the other half becoming total morons.

[Jester]

*is beginning to wonder which half he falls into...:tshifty:*

[ThirdMarioBro]

...mostly because I see half the world becoming smarter and the other half becoming total morons.

I actually though it was more 80/20 in favor of morons.

[VaughnMichael]

I actually though it was more 80/20 in favor of morons.
hah I guess that's true hu? oi this cold is kicking my @ss, off to bed I go!

[Jester]

That makes the odds even worse for me...blast!

Hey, anyone see the film Idiocracy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/)? *if you have you'll know how it fits in to this thread.*

[Storm Wolf]

Hate them for who they are on the inside.

:lol: lol! That gave me a chuckle! :lol:

Anywho... the movie Idiocracy was a very original idea I think. If you give it any thought....the prediction they give could become very true!

[Jester]

Which is why I love it, it's satire at its finest, and eerily true. :o